FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Women who don't like cock pics in the first message.
Women who don't like cock pics in the first message.
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"Because even though its a swinger site, conversation is still a real thing haha. Some women like the chase I imagine!"
I think that's alot to do with it. The need to feel wanted. What's the story with your username? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Because I like to know if they’ve read my profile.
I’m one of those annoying people with ‘if you’ve read my profile put this in the title...’.
And how will men put the keyword as the title if they haven’t read my profile, because I messaged them first 
(I know what I’m trying to say - I’m ill with the flu and can’t concentrate enough to try and fork the sentences I want to form  ). |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Because if they didn’t wake up to 100 new messages each day they wouldn’t be able to put themselves on a popularity pedestal high above us mere mortal men?  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because if they didn’t wake up to 100 new messages each day they wouldn’t be able to put themselves on a popularity pedestal high above us mere mortal men? "
I woke up to no messages today  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because I like to know if they’ve read my profile.
I’m one of those annoying people with ‘if you’ve read my profile put this in the title...’.
And how will men put the keyword as the title if they haven’t read my profile, because I messaged them first
(I know what I’m trying to say - I’m ill with the flu and can’t concentrate enough to try and fork the sentences I want to form ). "
Form...form the sentences. Not fork.
My hands are weak |
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"Because if they didn’t wake up to 100 new messages each day they wouldn’t be able to put themselves on a popularity pedestal high above us mere mortal men? "
Ah true. "I had Jason momoa message me, i turned him down because it made me feel better about myself." ... yeah we know! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Just because I’d rather not get a cock pic with a first message it doesn’t mean I don’t answer the messages that include one. I see no need to unilaterally block people. I’d miss out on way too much fun if I did  x |
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"Just because I’d rather not get a cock pic with a first message it doesn’t mean I don’t answer the messages that include one. I see no need to unilaterally block people. I’d miss out on way too much fun if I did x"
No you wouldn't, you'd be finding your own. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression..."
exactly this  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I can never find anyone I want to talk to and I hate scrolling through the hundreds of local men to get to the others.
I'm not bothered by cock pics in a first message; it makes it easier to decide if I want to talk to them or not. I find it quite helpful. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I thought all women wanted cock pics with the first message, indeed I normally send three pics. One taken from the left, one from the right and one of my bell end taken from such an angle that it looks massive and you can still see the toilet pan.
This isn't what's wanted, go figure.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because if they didn’t wake up to 100 new messages each day they wouldn’t be able to put themselves on a popularity pedestal high above us mere mortal men?
Ah true. "I had Jason momoa message me, i turned him down because it made me feel better about myself." ... yeah we know! "
We're not all like that Clam. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because I like to know if they’ve read my profile.
I’m one of those annoying people with ‘if you’ve read my profile put this in the title...’.
And how will men put the keyword as the title if they haven’t read my profile, because I messaged them first
(I know what I’m trying to say - I’m ill with the flu and can’t concentrate enough to try and fork the sentences I want to form ).
Form...form the sentences. Not fork.
My hands are weak "
Forking hell! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I like getting to know someone first. I like the feeling of wanting to see his cock. If he sends it right away he's taking away the anticipation. It's like waking up Christmas day, knowing what presents you have. |
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression..."
But you'd be busy with the guys YOU proactively found to meet yourself.... so you wouldn't miss them. Simples |
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"Because if they didn’t wake up to 100 new messages each day they wouldn’t be able to put themselves on a popularity pedestal high above us mere mortal men?
Ah true. "I had Jason momoa message me, i turned him down because it made me feel better about myself." ... yeah we know!
We're not all like that Clam. "
You are an exception though. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because if they didn’t wake up to 100 new messages each day they wouldn’t be able to put themselves on a popularity pedestal high above us mere mortal men? "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression...
But you'd be busy with the guys YOU proactively found to meet yourself.... so you wouldn't miss them. Simples "
I wouldn't be though. I tried to find men myself and came up blank. It doesn't work for me that way. I'm doing great my way. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression..."
this!
It’s an easy way to gauge whether to ignore or respond. If they send something you specifically said you didn’t want, then delete the message. I think that goes for any users preference: no point sending pussy pics to a guy who requests a feet interest. |
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"Because even though its a swinger site, conversation is still a real thing haha.
This.
*Breaking news* woman has liberated attitude to sex AND likes to have conversation. "
This will surely never catch on? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Some men message me with lovely messages after reading my profile, who I would never have thought of messaging, or don’t show as nearby for one reason or another. Why should we block all men just because a percentage of them do it? Doesn’t seem fair really.
Also if they send dick pics without me asking, clearly they haven’t taken a minute to read my profile. So I know we’re not suited and it makes it easier |
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression...
But you'd be busy with the guys YOU proactively found to meet yourself.... so you wouldn't miss them. Simples
I wouldn't be though. I tried to find men myself and came up blank. It doesn't work for me that way. I'm doing great my way. "
Yes you are. But you're not one of the "delicate flower" type of fabbers. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression...
this!
It’s an easy way to gauge whether to ignore or respond. If they send something you specifically said you didn’t want, then delete the message. I think that goes for any users preference: no point sending pussy pics to a guy who requests a feet interest. "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression...
But you'd be busy with the guys YOU proactively found to meet yourself.... so you wouldn't miss them. Simples "
With the amount of single guys on site I highly doubt I'd get a hence to message that many, and some of the best meets I've had have been with guys I'd never usually message, so I'll stick with my way and just ignore the dick pics. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I prefere nice hairy chest pic and face .i think cock should be left to the imagination.But saying that if they say vwe but really ikea pencil it could be a let down |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I prefere nice hairy chest pic and face .i think cock should be left to the imagination.But saying that if they say vwe but really ikea pencil it could be a let down "
In the words of the great philosopher Socrates.......
I agree.
And I'm not just agreeing because I have a hairy chest and I think you are dead sexy with great boobs and a lovely curvy bum and stuff honest I'm not
 |
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression...
But you'd be busy with the guys YOU proactively found to meet yourself.... so you wouldn't miss them. Simples
With the amount of single guys on site I highly doubt I'd get a hence to message that many, and some of the best meets I've had have been with guys I'd never usually message, so I'll stick with my way and just ignore the dick pics. "
That's fine. Just don't be one of the moaners! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I prefere nice hairy chest pic and face .i think cock should be left to the imagination.But saying that if they say vwe but really ikea pencil it could be a let down
In the words of the great philosopher Socrates.......
I agree.
And I'm not just agreeing because I have a hairy chest and I think you are dead sexy with great boobs and a lovely curvy bum and stuff honest I'm not
"
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression...
But you'd be busy with the guys YOU proactively found to meet yourself.... so you wouldn't miss them. Simples
With the amount of single guys on site I highly doubt I'd get a hence to message that many, and some of the best meets I've had have been with guys I'd never usually message, so I'll stick with my way and just ignore the dick pics.
That's fine. Just don't be one of the moaners! "
But I like a good moan...
Can I still moan about other things? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have a cock shot in case i’m Asked for one. But I like to have more approachable pictures in my profile. Face pics are the killers lmao"
I like it when I need to ask to see it. |
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By *arlo82Couple
over a year ago
the gym and random places |
"Because if they didn’t wake up to 100 new messages each day they wouldn’t be able to put themselves on a popularity pedestal high above us mere mortal men? "
Ha I must be a single male.....0 messages! |
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By *arlo82Couple
over a year ago
the gym and random places |
"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression...
But you'd be busy with the guys YOU proactively found to meet yourself.... so you wouldn't miss them. Simples "
But most guys either then 1) don't reply back (read and delete) 2) read and don't delete 3) ask some ridiculous question that had they read the profile would know the answer to 4) think you're catfishing 5) message you with a load of abuse about bein an empowered woman cos you've sent the first one.
Far too much hassle! Every opening one I've sent a lad I'm interested in has went unanswered |
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"Because even though its a swinger site, conversation is still a real thing haha. Some women like the chase I imagine!
this thank you "
Can women not start a conversation these days? I didn't realise things had got soo bad. |
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression...
But you'd be busy with the guys YOU proactively found to meet yourself.... so you wouldn't miss them. Simples
But most guys either then 1) don't reply back (read and delete) 2) read and don't delete 3) ask some ridiculous question that had they read the profile would know the answer to 4) think you're catfishing 5) message you with a load of abuse about bein an empowered woman cos you've sent the first one.
Far too much hassle! Every opening one I've sent a lad I'm interested in has went unanswered "
Now you really do sound like a dude! |
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By *arlo82Couple
over a year ago
the gym and random places |
"Because even though its a swinger site, conversation is still a real thing haha. Some women like the chase I imagine!
this thank you
Can women not start a conversation these days? I didn't realise things had got soo bad. "
We can read up |
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By *arlo82Couple
over a year ago
the gym and random places |
"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression...
But you'd be busy with the guys YOU proactively found to meet yourself.... so you wouldn't miss them. Simples
But most guys either then 1) don't reply back (read and delete) 2) read and don't delete 3) ask some ridiculous question that had they read the profile would know the answer to 4) think you're catfishing 5) message you with a load of abuse about bein an empowered woman cos you've sent the first one.
Far too much hassle! Every opening one I've sent a lad I'm interested in has went unanswered
Now you really do sound like a dude! "
Hahahaa cheers! Least I don't look too much like one! |
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"I can't understand why somebody would send a cock/fanny pic in their first message. We straight delete those messages, send a face pic!"
I can't understand why anyone would have a face pic on a site like fab. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can't understand why somebody would send a cock/fanny pic in their first message. We straight delete those messages, send a face pic!
I can't understand why anyone would have a face pic on a site like fab."
Because we look good |
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By *arlo82Couple
over a year ago
the gym and random places |
"I can't understand why somebody would send a cock/fanny pic in their first message. We straight delete those messages, send a face pic!
I can't understand why anyone would have a face pic on a site like fab."
Why would you not have a face pic?? |
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"I can't understand why somebody would send a cock/fanny pic in their first message. We straight delete those messages, send a face pic!
I can't understand why anyone would have a face pic on a site like fab.
Why would you not have a face pic??"
It's not a sensible option. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can't understand why somebody would send a cock/fanny pic in their first message. We straight delete those messages, send a face pic!
I can't understand why anyone would have a face pic on a site like fab."
We don't on our profile, however we have private ones to send to people as a swap. |
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"I can't understand why somebody would send a cock/fanny pic in their first message. We straight delete those messages, send a face pic!
I can't understand why anyone would have a face pic on a site like fab.
We don't on our profile, however we have private ones to send to people as a swap."
Still on the server though. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I prefere nice hairy chest pic and face .i think cock should be left to the imagination.But saying that if they say vwe but really ikea pencil it could be a let down "
 |
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"I can never find anyone I want to talk to and I hate scrolling through the hundreds of local men to get to the others "
Oh its a sea of dross, most men's profiles are gross or so banal I get totally turned off within about 5 mins!! I have good filters and I am rarely overwhelmed with mail so letting the guys that are interested find me is a much better idea for me. I don't need attention from the masses, but I am primal prey, so if someone wants to meet me he has to pursue me to turn me on to him. That's why sending a cock first does not work for me, I have to desire the man first.
Unless your cock pics look like Commando4's - their ilk would always be welcome in my inbox, men need to learn to take good pics not ugly close ups!  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This suggestion quite often gets grumpy reactions- I think guys should simply take the decision not to send the first message.
You're preaching to the converted there, my hard rockin' amigo!"
I’ll rock out with my cock out, but no shock when I’m blocked out |
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"I can never find anyone I want to talk to and I hate scrolling through the hundreds of local men to get to the others
Oh its a sea of dross, most men's profiles are gross or so banal I get totally turned off within about 5 mins!! I have good filters and I am rarely overwhelmed with mail so letting the guys that are interested find me is a much better idea for me. I don't need attention from the masses, but I am primal prey, so if someone wants to meet me he has to pursue me to turn me on to him. That's why sending a cock first does not work for me, I have to desire the man first.
Unless your cock pics look like Commando4's - their ilk would always be welcome in my inbox, men need to learn to take good pics not ugly close ups! "
I wonder if now that you can label your photos, there maybe a way of filtering out dick pics in the future. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I like getting to know someone first. I like the feeling of wanting to see his cock. If he sends it right away he's taking away the anticipation. It's like waking up Christmas day, knowing what presents you have. "
Yes, exactly this!! I also find it a turn off seeing an erection from a random stranger. If I like the person, even a tiny bit, it is highly erotic. |
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"I can never find anyone I want to talk to and I hate scrolling through the hundreds of local men to get to the others
Oh its a sea of dross, most men's profiles are gross or so banal I get totally turned off within about 5 mins!! I have good filters and I am rarely overwhelmed with mail so letting the guys that are interested find me is a much better idea for me. I don't need attention from the masses, but I am primal prey, so if someone wants to meet me he has to pursue me to turn me on to him. That's why sending a cock first does not work for me, I have to desire the man first.
Unless your cock pics look like Commando4's - their ilk would always be welcome in my inbox, men need to learn to take good pics not ugly close ups!
I wonder if now that you can label your photos, there maybe a way of filtering out dick pics in the future. "
That would be useful - it's in the first line of my profile and they still don't see it. I wonder if men realise how many potential meets they have lost by trying to shove their cock in a woman's face before she desires it? They are their own worst enemy. |
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By *sGivesWoodWoman
over a year ago
ST. AUSTELL, CORNWALL |
"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression..."
This |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can't understand why somebody would send a cock/fanny pic in their first message. We straight delete those messages, send a face pic!
I can't understand why anyone would have a face pic on a site like fab."
Why not? I like to see people’s faces and more likely to respond if I see one. I’m not hiding my lifestyle or have a partner hidden away at home so am being completely open and honest. |
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"I like getting to know someone first. I like the feeling of wanting to see his cock. If he sends it right away he's taking away the anticipation. It's like waking up Christmas day, knowing what presents you have.
Yes, exactly this!! I also find it a turn off seeing an erection from a random stranger. If I like the person, even a tiny bit, it is highly erotic. "
Exactly - if only those men understood they are turning women OFF when after a few messages the same pics could turn them ON!
I particularly object to the Monday morning 'day off balls full' brigade! Not before my coffee, not unless I've spent the night with you!! |
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"I can't understand why somebody would send a cock/fanny pic in their first message. We straight delete those messages, send a face pic!
I can't understand why anyone would have a face pic on a site like fab.
Why not? I like to see people’s faces and more likely to respond if I see one. I’m not hiding my lifestyle or have a partner hidden away at home so am being completely open and honest. "
Good luck to you. I don't really want my friends or family knowing to be honest. |
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"What are you on about.. women love cock
Depends how attractive they are,some look rank. "
Yours doesn't,but let's be honest some do. We're forever hearing about manky vaginas,but there's some bloody ugly penises out there.
I like a photo of a naked guy I find attractive complete with cock pic. |
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I'm filtered up to the eyeballs and therefore am proactive and will initiate contact when someone takes my fancy... but I will also occasionally drop filters to take part in a forum discussion of interest, and that's usually when opportunists will pounce with cock pic intros.
Is that my fault? Do I simply accept that by being here I should meekly allow people to behave towards me in a manner that I feel is inappropriate and makes me uncomfortable? I've said "No" on my profile... shouldn't that be enough? Is it acceptable here then that No doesn't really mean No and men should be allowed to carry on, regardless of a woman's expressed wishes... and if so, how far does that extend?
Food for thought...  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm filtered up to the eyeballs and therefore am proactive and will initiate contact when someone takes my fancy... but I will also occasionally drop filters to take part in a forum discussion of interest, and that's usually when opportunists will pounce with cock pic intros.
Is that my fault? Do I simply accept that by being here I should meekly allow people to behave towards me in a manner that I feel is inappropriate and makes me uncomfortable? I've said "No" on my profile... shouldn't that be enough? Is it acceptable here then that No doesn't really mean No and men should be allowed to carry on, regardless of a woman's expressed wishes... and if so, how far does that extend?
Food for thought... "
This!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I like getting to know someone first. I like the feeling of wanting to see his cock. If he sends it right away he's taking away the anticipation. It's like waking up Christmas day, knowing what presents you have.
Yes, exactly this!! I also find it a turn off seeing an erection from a random stranger. If I like the person, even a tiny bit, it is highly erotic.
Exactly - if only those men understood they are turning women OFF when after a few messages the same pics could turn them ON!
I particularly object to the Monday morning 'day off balls full' brigade! Not before my coffee, not unless I've spent the night with you!! "
I like a pic of a cock that I have made hard. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What are you on about.. women love cock
Depends how attractive they are,some look rank.
Yours doesn't,but let's be honest some do. We're forever hearing about manky vaginas,but there's some bloody ugly penises out there.
I like a photo of a naked guy I find attractive complete with cock pic."
I think it’s the disembodied cock pics are the issue rather than a naked photo of a guy who happens to have his hard, semi or soft cock in view.
Although if I did really worry about how my cock looks I may have thought you were talking about mine
Besides mines hidden behind, filters, fancy effects and vignettes so you can’t see how minging it really is  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I prefere nice hairy chest pic and face .i think cock should be left to the imagination.But saying that if they say vwe but really ikea pencil it could be a let down
Its not ikea pencil
Nope Ikeas are bigger, mine’s more like the worn out stubby that’s been sharpened too much "
Betting shop pen |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I prefere nice hairy chest pic and face .i think cock should be left to the imagination.But saying that if they say vwe but really ikea pencil it could be a let down
Its not ikea pencil
Nope Ikeas are bigger, mine’s more like the worn out stubby that’s been sharpened too much
Betting shop pen "
Currently it looks like the sky blue ones it’s that fecking cold |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression..."
I don't block anyone because I see no need to. My profile puts most men off. |
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By *ANDA2Couple
over a year ago
Henley Arden |
Because it’s a great filter and remembered are photos with cock in them photos and cock photos. .
If they think I want a cock photo it means they are not the same wave length as me and so not generally the kind I wish to meet |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I prefere nice hairy chest pic and face .i think cock should be left to the imagination.But saying that if they say vwe but really ikea pencil it could be a let down
Its not ikea pencil
Nope Ikeas are bigger, mine’s more like the worn out stubby that’s been sharpened too much
Betting shop pen
Currently it looks like the sky blue ones it’s that fecking cold"
Will i knitt you a willy warmer |
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Op is frustrated as he's being overlooked for sending cock pics!.. Over a year on the site and not even a sniff from a women.. Don't worry you and the rest of the Neanderthals can all keep blaming us women for that! That's going work to get you a shag isn't it, Not! Haha .. Maybe try the cock pics again hey |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I prefere nice hairy chest pic and face .i think cock should be left to the imagination.But saying that if they say vwe but really ikea pencil it could be a let down
Its not ikea pencil
Nope Ikeas are bigger, mine’s more like the worn out stubby that’s been sharpened too much
Betting shop pen
Currently it looks like the sky blue ones it’s that fecking cold
Will i knitt you a willy warmer "
Shouldn’t take long - about 10 stitches will do. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Op is frustrated as he's being overlooked for sending cock pics!.. Over a year on the site and not even a sniff from a women.. Don't worry you and the rest of the Neanderthals can all keep blaming us women for that! That's going work to get you a shag isn't it, Not! Haha .. Maybe try the cock pics again hey "
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"Because not ALL single men do this...would be a shame to miss out of the decent guys we might otherwise never get to chat to because some guys think a dick pic is the best first impression...
But you'd be busy with the guys YOU proactively found to meet yourself.... so you wouldn't miss them. Simples
With the amount of single guys on site I highly doubt I'd get a hence to message that many, and some of the best meets I've had have been with guys I'd never usually message, so I'll stick with my way and just ignore the dick pics.
That's fine. Just don't be one of the moaners! "
Irony alert!!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I prefere nice hairy chest pic and face .i think cock should be left to the imagination.But saying that if they say vwe but really ikea pencil it could be a let down
Its not ikea pencil
Nope Ikeas are bigger, mine’s more like the worn out stubby that’s been sharpened too much
Betting shop pen
Currently it looks like the sky blue ones it’s that fecking cold
Will i knitt you a willy warmer
Shouldn’t take long - about 10 stitches will do. "
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Why don't they block single men, then send the first message themselves? "
i would say they very picky with very high standards which is fair to them but hard on other who want the same thing for this site. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can't understand why somebody would send a cock/fanny pic in their first message. We straight delete those messages, send a face pic!
I can't understand why anyone would have a face pic on a site like fab.
Why not? I like to see people’s faces and more likely to respond if I see one. I’m not hiding my lifestyle or have a partner hidden away at home so am being
completely open and honest.
Good luck to you. I don't really want my friends or family knowing to be honest. "
Nothing wrong with that but my preference is to see a face. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I like getting to know someone first. I like the feeling of wanting to see his cock. If he sends it right away he's taking away the anticipation. It's like waking up Christmas day, knowing what presents you have.
Yes, exactly this!! I also find it a turn off seeing an erection from a random stranger. If I like the person, even a tiny bit, it is highly erotic.
Exactly - if only those men understood they are turning women OFF when after a few messages the same pics could turn them ON!
I particularly object to the Monday morning 'day off balls full' brigade! Not before my coffee, not unless I've spent the night with you!!
I like a pic of a cock that I have made hard. "
Now that’s a different story and usually I receive these via whatsapp from people I KNOW! |
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