FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Solar Panel technology .. input needed.
Solar Panel technology .. input needed.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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As part of my retraining course to become an electrician I will also be doing a PV Installation course that will train me how to install solar panel systems.
Eventually, my goal is to start my own business installing solar technology into homes.
The govt feed-in tarrif (FIT) until March 1 next year remains at 43.3p per kW hour generated, plus a further 3p per kW hour as an 'export' tarrif.
When the FIT scheme was launched it was built into it that the FIT would reduce by 5p per kW hour each year over five years. This was to encourage householders to install PV panels as part of the govt's committment to reduce our carbon footprint. (I'm not concerned about that policy as that's for another discussion).
The FIT will be as follows over the next four years (it's already been running for 1 year)
2011- March 2012: 43.3p
2012 - 2013: 38.3p
2013 - 2014: 33.3p
2014 - 2015: 28.3p
2015 - 2016: 23.3p
These prices are guaranteed, and index linked until 2036 (2011 plus 25 years).
Now, a typical 4kW system costs £10-12,000 to install, and the FIT will generate approx. £1,200 per year, which makes it 10 years and the system will have paid for itself. (probably a bit longer if you factor inflation into it).
In the summer months where days are longer and hotter, a 4kW system will generate enough electricity to more than cater for your energy requirements. Surveys show that typical usage of PV generated electricity for an average household is between 35-45% of total electricity generated between May-September. The surplus is sold back to the grid under the FIT scheme. In practice, this means you will not have an electricity bill at all during those months as you're generating your own energy, but in the winter months your system won't generate enough for your needs so you have to buy it back from the grid at the prevailing rate (typically 3p kW).
On paper it sounds like a no brainer to go ahead and get PV panels installed, but at install costs of £10-12k what I'd like to know is if it's something many people will consider?
p.s. Beware of companies who offer to pay for the install but they keep the FIT as all you'll save is approx. £70 PER YEAR.
p.p.s. at the moment you need a south or south-east/west facing property, but technology is under development to remove that restriction so that any dwelling can generate it's own energy.
~
Over to you guys, is it a viable business to get into? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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as it was shown on Dragons Den last night also. id like to think it would be a viable business. People are taking there money out of the banks and are investing elsewhere.
If i were fortunate to own my property and had 12K in savings (id be very happy anyways) but would certainly consider investing. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"as it was shown on Dragons Den last night also. id like to think it would be a viable business. People are taking there money out of the banks and are investing elsewhere.
If i were fortunate to own my property and had 12K in savings (id be very happy anyways) but would certainly consider investing. "
Ah, thanks for that, I didn't see D/Den last night so will go see if it's on again on a +1 channel somewhere. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"as it was shown on Dragons Den last night also. id like to think it would be a viable business. People are taking there money out of the banks and are investing elsewhere.
If i were fortunate to own my property and had 12K in savings (id be very happy anyways) but would certainly consider investing.
Ah, thanks for that, I didn't see D/Den last night so will go see if it's on again on a +1 channel somewhere."
Apparently the market will boom and go up by 100% however Peter Jones made a valid point.. how many people have 14 grand of disposable income? |
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A lot of houses in Southend, and generally on my travels around here have solar panels fitted.
I was chatting to one of the guys who comes into my work to buy bits and pieces, and he said he has so many requests for it, he can't keep up, he either is looking at taking someone else on, or having to turn work away.
So I guess it depends on the area. When I lived up North I'd never seen a house with a solar panel on it. |
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By *ENGUYMan
over a year ago
Hull |
There's been a lot of debating recently on this subject, so depending on which publication you read, it's make your mind up time!
Some sources cite how much you can save plus "sell back" into the National Grid, but what you actually earn is minimal; it is also being said that the installation costs are not recouped in 10 years; they take 20 years!
It was reported on our local BBC TV News last month, about a local company which has opened up an office & showroom in an Industrial Park in Hull. He was determined to be as "green" as possible, and fitted solar panels across his entire roof.
Whilst his electricity consumption from the Grid is NIL, he stated that the set up costs were in excess of £30k. But what riled him was the reality of lack of Government assistance despite what they might say publicly. As for local government help, that was virtually non-existent!
In his view, he'd think twice about solar power, and has advised businesses to do likewise.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"It was reported on our local BBC TV News last month, about a local company which has opened up an office & showroom in an Industrial Park in Hull. He was determined to be as "green" as possible, and fitted solar panels across his entire roof.
Whilst his electricity consumption from the Grid is NIL, he stated that the set up costs were in excess of £30k. But what riled him was the reality of lack of Government assistance despite what they might say publicly. As for local government help, that was virtually non-existent!
In his view, he'd think twice about solar power, and has advised businesses to do likewise.
"
You make a valid point there.
The problem has been that when the FIT was launched many rich individuals and businesses saw a golden opportunity to make a serious amount of money and huge solar arrays were set up. Quite a few farmers have allocated a couple of acres of their land to producing solar energy and some of them have been generating as much as £1m PER MONTH in the hottest months of the year. The govt has now set a cap on the FIT to systems under 50kW, and although systems bigger than 50Kw still qualify for the FIT they are at vastly lower rates (typically 19p per kW hour.)
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By *ENGUYMan
over a year ago
Hull |
"It was reported on our local BBC TV News last month, about a local company which has opened up an office & showroom in an Industrial Park in Hull. He was determined to be as "green" as possible, and fitted solar panels across his entire roof.
Whilst his electricity consumption from the Grid is NIL, he stated that the set up costs were in excess of £30k. But what riled him was the reality of lack of Government assistance despite what they might say publicly. As for local government help, that was virtually non-existent!
In his view, he'd think twice about solar power, and has advised businesses to do likewise.
You make a valid point there.
The problem has been that when the FIT was launched many rich individuals and businesses saw a golden opportunity to make a serious amount of money and huge solar arrays were set up. Quite a few farmers have allocated a couple of acres of their land to producing solar energy and some of them have been generating as much as £1m PER MONTH in the hottest months of the year. The govt has now set a cap on the FIT to systems under 50kW, and although systems bigger than 50Kw still qualify for the FIT they are at vastly lower rates (typically 19p per kW hour.)
"
Likewise, there was a report on the same news programme last month about a Solar Power company unit on a farm in Northern Lincolnshire. The entire field is covered in a framework of solar panels, but the actual output only yields enough power to serve around 3000 homes locally and the feedback power into the Grid is tiny.
Again, the Operators reckon unless the Government has a rethink and makes it more viable, this Solar Power "farm" will be a one-off! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Done some further research and discovered that the FIT is paid even if you use ALL the energy you generate yourself. The surplus energy you send back to the grid is paid at an additional rate of 3p per Kw. This is the 'export tarrif' I mentioned in my OP. |
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By *umourCouple
over a year ago
Rushden |
Not sure of the timescales, but I have been told by a guy who installs these systems that the panels will likely need replacing in 10 to 12 years! That would see a cost of about 2/3rds of the origional plus inflation! 
Couple that with any servicing needed and it makes to payback look pretty sick! I had a conversation with a guy at the Energy Saving Trust and he confirmed the replacement, but said he couldn't give timescales. Some will need replacement earlier than others! Depends on the quality of the origional fit.
Rather than jump on the bandwagon, I would be very wary of this treasure chest, could turn out to be Pandora's Box! |
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Seems everything seems to 'break' so quickly these days, makes us wonder if they are designed to do that so we have to keep buying.
I always thought it strange that if so efficient that more new build don't install them as a feature. Maybe thats why! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"What are the life spans of the panels?
We have heard a _umour that they have a finite lifecycle, so if they are going to 'break down' after 10 years then it's a false ecomony.
"
The panels come with a 25 year guarantee that they will maintain at least 80% of their generating capacity over that timescale.
It is impossible to tell with any degree of accuracy just how long a solar panel will last since many of the first panels installed are still running and still operating under their initial 10 year manufacturer's guarantee. Until we see installations that have been in situ for 25 years or more nobody can make any sort of accurate claim to how long panels will last. Even so, it is highly unlikely that an entire array will fail simultaneously require a completely new installation, but it should also be worth noting that, as with any product in the market place, those kept in pristine condition with regular servicing will last much longer than those starved by neglect.
You wouldn't pay £20k for a car and not get it serviced, would you? |
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By *umourCouple
over a year ago
Rushden |
"What are the life spans of the panels?
We have heard a _umour that they have a finite lifecycle, so if they are going to 'break down' after 10 years then it's a false ecomony.
The panels come with a 25 year guarantee that they will maintain at least 80% of their generating capacity over that timescale.
It is impossible to tell with any degree of accuracy just how long a solar panel will last since many of the first panels installed are still running and still operating under their initial 10 year manufacturer's guarantee. Until we see installations that have been in situ for 25 years or more nobody can make any sort of accurate claim to how long panels will last. Even so, it is highly unlikely that an entire array will fail simultaneously require a completely new installation, but it should also be worth noting that, as with any product in the market place, those kept in pristine condition with regular servicing will last much longer than those starved by neglect.
You wouldn't pay £20k for a car and not get it serviced, would you?"
Thanks for that Wishy, makes a lot more sense now!  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Thanks for that Wishy, makes a lot more sense now! "
Hey, no problem. I'm on a verticle learning curve here trying to decide if this is the industry I can make some serious money in. I know installers are a rare breed at the moment so I'll be doing that anyhow, for another company probably, but I'm of a mind to set up my own business and employ installers.
A lot of the info I'm finding is very conflicting so it's a question of cutting through the crap and finding out what's real and what's been made up. I know that eventually I'll go straight to the manufacturers and ask them what their guarantees are but so much is coming in from China that it's impossible to tell if it's one company producing it all over there and rebadging their products for western companies, or are there many manufacturers making different quality products.
I think in the short term it's worth doing if the customer base is there, and as for long term, well, I'm 46 so I'm only interested in the next 20 years max anyway.
More research needed methinks. |
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I run six small panels (100W max) today producing around 4A at 15V into 2x100Ah 12V batteries (with regulator) and fused. Panels simply on flat roof on self-made wood frames.
Totally off the grid and used for running a small pond pump, and gadget charging, e.g. phones, kitchen radio, AA batteries, netbook, rechargeable lights for mood lighting nights in lounge.
Did look at grid connecting, but the costs of a Part P and inverter mean it is not worth it.
The bigger installs, only if someone had the £10k needed to lend me cheaply. My worry is many people are being misled over what the panels will produce in winter, with a dark week in winter so little generated that the batteries run flat.
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"Thanks for that Wishy, makes a lot more sense now!
Hey, no problem. I'm on a verticle learning curve here trying to decide if this is the industry I can make some serious money in. I know installers are a rare breed at the moment so I'll be doing that anyhow, for another company probably, but I'm of a mind to set up my own business and employ installers.
A lot of the info I'm finding is very conflicting so it's a question of cutting through the crap and finding out what's real and what's been made up. I know that eventually I'll go straight to the manufacturers and ask them what their guarantees are but so much is coming in from China that it's impossible to tell if it's one company producing it all over there and rebadging their products for western companies, or are there many manufacturers making different quality products.
I think in the short term it's worth doing if the customer base is there, and as for long term, well, I'm 46 so I'm only interested in the next 20 years max anyway.
More research needed methinks."
why not when you qualify see if you can get a job with one of the existing installers for a couple of years, this will:
1, give you a feel for the market and see how it is,
2, build a network of contacts in the trade.
Obviously you dont tell them at interview your aim is to go it alone, and may sound harsh on whoever takes you on, but these days and times its dog eat dog |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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D Den is probably available online on iplayer but i've not checked
also, check out back issues of Homebuilding and Rennovating magazine - i know they've done articles in the past about the worthiness of investing in solar (both PV and supplemental water heating)
from my own point of view it's a heavy investment for a long term gain... but only if you stay in the same house. I have solar tubes on my house which are great for supplemental heat, but they were installed by the folks I bought the house from.... i would'nt have shelled out the cash to intall them myself as I cant see myself having a 'home for life' anywhere.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Wishy- what happens in winter? Do they still produce power or is it only throughout the day when there is sunlight.
And can they store the energy produced?
I like the idea and many around here are getting them free from a company, but I've heard some horror stories. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"why not when you qualify see if you can get a job with one of the existing installers for a couple of years, this will:
1, give you a feel for the market and see how it is,
2, build a network of contacts in the trade.
Obviously you dont tell them at interview your aim is to go it alone, and may sound harsh on whoever takes you on, but these days and times its dog eat dog"
That's pretty much what my 5-year personal plan is tbh. One of the things I want to bring to any business I establish is a customer-focused operation where my customers will know and trust me. I'm not looking to rip people off as this is the very reason that set me on this path in the first place (I despise the energy companies and their blatant annually legalised mugging of the British consumer).
With each installation I do I intend to supply my customers with a full information pack on what their systems will do, how much they can hope to generate and the savings they will make. I intend to give them as much support as they need, as well as build into my business a realistic and affordable 2-year service plan so that they can get maximum efficiency from their solar arrays. I'll give them industry insider knowledge too as it becomes available - I'll have these fookin energy companies pulling their hair out lol
If I can get the business going that is. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"D Den is probably available online on iplayer but i've not checked
also, check out back issues of Homebuilding and Rennovating magazine - i know they've done articles in the past about the worthiness of investing in solar (both PV and supplemental water heating)
from my own point of view it's a heavy investment for a long term gain... but only if you stay in the same house. I have solar tubes on my house which are great for supplemental heat, but they were installed by the folks I bought the house from.... i would'nt have shelled out the cash to intall them myself as I cant see myself having a 'home for life' anywhere.
"
That's something I have wondered about too. Obviously the FIT remains with the house as that's where the arrays are, but I can't see how one can recoup the cost of install when you sell the house as you'd be indirectly taking the FIT with you when you sell. It must be a good selling point if anything else, but did/does it actually add value to the house price? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Wishy- what happens in winter? Do they still produce power or is it only throughout the day when there is sunlight."
The array will produce power but it is limited by a) the amount of daylight hours, and b) the amount of heat from the sun. As it's colder in winter than in summer then no, the array won't produce as much as it does in the summer months but that's when you buy back from the grid at a vastly lower rate than you sold electricity to it. Don't forget, you get the FIT no matter what. If you use all the energy you produce and sell nothing back to the grid, you still get the FIT. If you do sell surplus energy back then you get 3p per kW. And you buy back from the grid at more or less the same rate.
"And can they store the energy produced?
I like the idea and many around here are getting them free from a company, but I've heard some horror stories."
At the moment, there is no method of storing enough of the energy you generate that you need to run a household as it will require a bank of batteries to store it in, and a switching mechanism that allows you to use your battery and recharge it but when it's fully charged you need to be able to switch back to the grid automatically, or use energy from the grid if your batteries aren't fully charged.
Yes, you can install your own battery and run minimal operations from it, as someone said above, but it's not an efficient means of storing enough to run your entire household.
At the moment the Electricity Authority hasn't allowed any such system to be connected ot the grid, as far as I know, although I'm sure that this sort of setup isn't too far away. The onus is on the EA allowing access to the meter from a switchable bank of capacity storage units. Such a system would inevitably impact on the FIT prices too, I'd guess. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
I like the idea and many around here are getting them free from a company, but I've heard some horror stories."
Be careful when allowing a company to 'rent your roof' as from what I've heard you only get the savings made on the electricity you use from your own array. You don't get the FIT and install costs are a lot higher and, once you factor all that in, you'll get c.£70pa savings which makes it non cost effective, yet your roof will be happily generating cash for a company while you get fook all.
If you don't have the £10-12k needed up front then negotiate a loan from the bank, or remortgage. The banks know that the money is guaranteed from the govt and so long as you remain in your property until the loan is paid off you'll have got the system for nothing, whilst enjoying lower fuel bills in the summer months. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"D Den is probably available online on iplayer but i've not checked
also, check out back issues of Homebuilding and Rennovating magazine - i know they've done articles in the past about the worthiness of investing in solar (both PV and supplemental water heating)
from my own point of view it's a heavy investment for a long term gain... but only if you stay in the same house. I have solar tubes on my house which are great for supplemental heat, but they were installed by the folks I bought the house from.... i would'nt have shelled out the cash to intall them myself as I cant see myself having a 'home for life' anywhere.
That's something I have wondered about too. Obviously the FIT remains with the house as that's where the arrays are, but I can't see how one can recoup the cost of install when you sell the house as you'd be indirectly taking the FIT with you when you sell. It must be a good selling point if anything else, but did/does it actually add value to the house price?"
in short - no. I paid no extra on purchase and I'm currently selling and the estate agent didn't think it was worth putting on the sale particulars... so overall if you install to you own home its purely for the satisfaction of 'doing your bit'
the way I see things however, is it will become more of a standard feature in new builds by the big developers, so if i were in your shoes, I would try to get a small business going with domestic clients, but with an eye to getting a foothold into Persimmon/Bovis etc etc as a preferred subcontactor to them.... if you can also cover the bases of heat pumps and underfloor heating etc as well, then so much the better (in my view) |
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A certain auction site has the grid connect hardware, and most has the electronics to disconnect it when the mains goes off. This avoid electrocuting the engineer down the road fixing the fault etc.
Mine has been handy on days when mains fails around here, i.e. a few hours every couple of months. Charge netbook and run the kitchen radio |
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"why not when you qualify see if you can get a job with one of the existing installers for a couple of years, this will:
1, give you a feel for the market and see how it is,
2, build a network of contacts in the trade.
Obviously you dont tell them at interview your aim is to go it alone, and may sound harsh on whoever takes you on, but these days and times its dog eat dog
That's pretty much what my 5-year personal plan is tbh. One of the things I want to bring to any business I establish is a customer-focused operation where my customers will know and trust me. I'm not looking to rip people off as this is the very reason that set me on this path in the first place (I despise the energy companies and their blatant annually legalised mugging of the British consumer).
With each installation I do I intend to supply my customers with a full information pack on what their systems will do, how much they can hope to generate and the savings they will make. I intend to give them as much support as they need, as well as build into my business a realistic and affordable 2-year service plan so that they can get maximum efficiency from their solar arrays. I'll give them industry insider knowledge too as it becomes available - I'll have these fookin energy companies pulling their hair out lol
If I can get the business going that is."
Do you plan to do the servicing as well as that would be a good idea on your earlier comment? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Do you plan to do the servicing as well as that would be a good idea on your earlier comment?"
It makes sense to service as well as install as I'll know how it was installed. I'll probably approach it along the same lines of having a gas boiler serviced, but not servicing your solar array won't kill you like a gas leak would so I don't envisage an annual check up as such - but happy to provide it if asked for lol
This is all hypothetical at the moment as I haven't finished my training yet but I see this time as the time needed to do my market research and hopefully hit the ground running early next year when I've done all my C&G stuff and got all my trade association memberships set up. Legislation seems to have changed so much when setting up a company since 20 years ago when all you had to do was register the company with Companies House and away you went, but then I wasn't dealing with electricity which when done incorrectly can kill. Even our trainer last week acknowledged that it will probably get him one day - not very inspiring to a class of raw recruits lol |
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In some regions of Spain you can get massive subsidies on having Solar Panels fitted to your dwelling, unfortunately where we are purchasing we are not permitted to have Solar Panels, Satellite Dishes, TV Aerials or anything of the like on exterior of the building.
I think it's brilliant technology, and feeding the National Grid with excess power is a great way to have a Solar Power set up pay for itself. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Even our trainer last week acknowledged that it will probably get him one day - not very inspiring to a class of raw recruits lol"
My friends brother in law was a qualified electrician - he got electrocuted doing a 'quick fix' to a washing machine for a pal...
left a wife with 2 kids, she eventually had a breakdown and the kids then went to live with my mate...
you can never, ever, be too careful.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yes I am interested but no way could I afford the outlet, my understanding is though that some utility companies do it free. Anything beyond that I cannot say as pointless investigating something I cannot afford nor one that my own utility company doesn't do  |
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"why not when you qualify see if you can get a job with one of the existing installers for a couple of years, this will:
1, give you a feel for the market and see how it is,
2, build a network of contacts in the trade.
Obviously you dont tell them at interview your aim is to go it alone, and may sound harsh on whoever takes you on, but these days and times its dog eat dog
That's pretty much what my 5-year personal plan is tbh. One of the things I want to bring to any business I establish is a customer-focused operation where my customers will know and trust me. I'm not looking to rip people off as this is the very reason that set me on this path in the first place (I despise the energy companies and their blatant annually legalised mugging of the British consumer).
With each installation I do I intend to supply my customers with a full information pack on what their systems will do, how much they can hope to generate and the savings they will make. I intend to give them as much support as they need, as well as build into my business a realistic and affordable 2-year service plan so that they can get maximum efficiency from their solar arrays. I'll give them industry insider knowledge too as it becomes available - I'll have these fookin energy companies pulling their hair out lol
If I can get the business going that is."
Well good luck |
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"D Den is probably available online on iplayer but i've not checked
also, check out back issues of Homebuilding and Rennovating magazine - i know they've done articles in the past about the worthiness of investing in solar (both PV and supplemental water heating)
from my own point of view it's a heavy investment for a long term gain... but only if you stay in the same house. I have solar tubes on my house which are great for supplemental heat, but they were installed by the folks I bought the house from.... i would'nt have shelled out the cash to intall them myself as I cant see myself having a 'home for life' anywhere.
That's something I have wondered about too. Obviously the FIT remains with the house as that's where the arrays are, but I can't see how one can recoup the cost of install when you sell the house as you'd be indirectly taking the FIT with you when you sell. It must be a good selling point if anything else, but did/does it actually add value to the house price?"
i advise on renewabl energy at work and as far as i know (i advise business' not domestic but am sure its the same) the FIT ends if the house is sold, the original buyers cant take it with them and the new owners can't re-register the array. obviously they will still benifit from the energy generated by the array though.
OfGem have recently published a document about the renewable tariffs as they launched the Renewable Heat Incentive for people usng biomass boilers, CHP, graound/air source heat pumps etc. Might be worth having a look at that.
The Energy Savings Trust are good people to talk to regarding domestic solar installations.
One key point is to make sure your installer is registered on the Microgeneration Certification Scheme as i believe tht if they are not you will not be eligible for the FIT |
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"Yes I am interested but no way could I afford the outlet, my understanding is though that some utility companies do it free. Anything beyond that I cannot say as pointless investigating something I cannot afford nor one that my own utility company doesn't do "
think they only do it free if you let them have the FIT though |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes I am interested but no way could I afford the outlet, my understanding is though that some utility companies do it free. Anything beyond that I cannot say as pointless investigating something I cannot afford nor one that my own utility company doesn't do
think they only do it free if you let them have the FIT though"
To be honest, I wouldn't care so long as i make savings on my electric |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Yes I am interested but no way could I afford the outlet, my understanding is though that some utility companies do it free. Anything beyond that I cannot say as pointless investigating something I cannot afford nor one that my own utility company doesn't do
think they only do it free if you let them have the FIT though
To be honest, I wouldn't care so long as i make savings on my electric "
The average home would save around 50% on their electricity bill. This doesn't include water-based central heating systems, which are usually powered by gas anyway. Having said that, the govt have just launched a new scheme whereby homes without a gas supply at all (which means using expensive storage heaters which run on electicity) will qualify for a £1,250 grant to go towards installing thermal solar heating systems. Households that do have gas will still qualify for a grant but it's only £300 towards the cost of ground or air source heating pumps.
Full details on the Energy Saving Trust website. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"i advise on renewabl energy at work and as far as i know (i advise business' not domestic but am sure its the same) the FIT ends if the house is sold, the original buyers cant take it with them and the new owners can't re-register the array. obviously they will still benifit from the energy generated by the array though.
OfGem have recently published a document about the renewable tariffs as they launched the Renewable Heat Incentive for people usng biomass boilers, CHP, graound/air source heat pumps etc. Might be worth having a look at that.
The Energy Savings Trust are good people to talk to regarding domestic solar installations.
One key point is to make sure your installer is registered on the Microgeneration Certification Scheme as i believe tht if they are not you will not be eligible for the FIT"
I didn't know that the FIT ends when the house is sold, so thanks for that. It makes sense really as the FIT is an incentive to install PV panels and not neccessarily as a means of earning tax free income from them as the primary reason for installing them.
And yes, you're correct, a PV system has to be installed by a MSC registered engineer to qualify for the FIT.
The engineer installs the system then notifies the people running the MSC database. The householer then contacts his or her electricity provider and notifies them that they now qualify for the FIT.
Interestingly, the funds set aside for the FIT are not provided by the taxpayer. The money is paid every three months by the energy provider who you get a bill from and each year the big six energy companies collate their data to determine how much FIT they've paid out and that figure is then divided by the total amount of customers they have - solar or otherwise. It works out that approximately £10 is added annually to every household electricity bill to pay for the FIT, which means that those who don't have solar arrays are paying for those that do. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes I am interested but no way could I afford the outlet, my understanding is though that some utility companies do it free. Anything beyond that I cannot say as pointless investigating something I cannot afford nor one that my own utility company doesn't do
think they only do it free if you let them have the FIT though
To be honest, I wouldn't care so long as i make savings on my electric
The average home would save around 50% on their electricity bill. This doesn't include water-based central heating systems, which are usually powered by gas anyway. Having said that, the govt have just launched a new scheme whereby homes without a gas supply at all (which means using expensive storage heaters which run on electicity) will qualify for a £1,250 grant to go towards installing thermal solar heating systems. Households that do have gas will still qualify for a grant but it's only £300 towards the cost of ground or air source heating pumps.
Full details on the Energy Saving Trust website."
Counts me out as i couldn't afford the difference between £10K and £300 as I have gas too, plus my house doesn't face the right way and I know that by the house down the street that has had it done and faces the opposite way to mine |
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"as it was shown on Dragons Den last night also. id like to think it would be a viable business. People are taking there money out of the banks and are investing elsewhere.
If i were fortunate to own my property and had 12K in savings (id be very happy anyways) but would certainly consider investing.
Ah, thanks for that, I didn't see D/Den last night so will go see if it's on again on a +1 channel somewhere."
If you aint seen it yet it's on the BBC iPlayer |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"as it was shown on Dragons Den last night also. id like to think it would be a viable business. People are taking there money out of the banks and are investing elsewhere.
If i were fortunate to own my property and had 12K in savings (id be very happy anyways) but would certainly consider investing.
Ah, thanks for that, I didn't see D/Den last night so will go see if it's on again on a +1 channel somewhere.
If you aint seen it yet it's on the BBC iPlayer"
Got it recorded on Sky+ now. Will watch it later today. |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
There are big players in the market up here doing installations - at least one of the contractors I see regularly is gearing up to do batch jobs of fifty sets at a time. ANyone setting up as a one man and his dog installer is likely to get shoved aside by the big boys...
Current performance is not great compared to what is coming on stream - there's a test array round the corner form here which is reputed to do 200% of the average domestic array metre for metre, and to be less than five years from production.
Someone was talking above about storage - batteries are the least effective form of storage - pumped storage would be much more efficient, but is not very feasible unless you've got a lot of land and so on. |
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one other point for those consiering PV - if you get funding for it be careful where it comes from as if it is from public funding you may not be eligible for the FIT (this is true for businesses, not 100% sure about domestic however cant see it being any different)
obviusy you need to weigh up the benefit of just having free electric without the FIT if you use pubkic funding against the benefit of financing it other ways and being eligible for the FIT
oh it all gets so bloody confusing at times lol
and the RHI is worse cos some biomass instllations have 2 tier payments   |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"There are a few councils starting to fit these systems so would have to say it is viable, but you may have missed the boat"
On the contrary, we're miles behind other countries, some of whom have less hours per day of sunlight that we get on average.
Even the biggest PV installation companies can't be everywhere at all times, and some companies may grow huge initially but fail eventually due to poor business management, so I think there is still a market for a viable business but as I said above, I only need to look out for the next 20 years or so. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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you'll be ok wishy, there are loads of double glazing companies, central heating companies, etc, etc there will always be room in any market for an enterprizing individual. All you have to do is to keep your promises and do a good job. Good luck  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"you'll be ok wishy, there are loads of double glazing companies, central heating companies, etc, etc there will always be room in any market for an enterprizing individual. All you have to do is to keep your promises and do a good job. Good luck "
That's kinda my way of thinking too. If I was 10 years younger I might still want to rule the world but now I just can't be arsed tbh lol
A nice little business earning a tidy little sum and something to leave the kids when I go and that'll do me ta. |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"There are a few councils starting to fit these systems so would have to say it is viable, but you may have missed the boat
On the contrary, we're miles behind other countries, some of whom have less hours per day of sunlight that we get on average.
Even the biggest PV installation companies can't be everywhere at all times, and some companies may grow huge initially but fail eventually due to poor business management, so I think there is still a market for a viable business but as I said above, I only need to look out for the next 20 years or so. "
Not wanting to p*** on your raspberrries, but the big parcels of work aren't going to PV companies as such,but to general contractors who already either have domestic sparks on the books, or to Heat and Vent contractors. I've sat in on some big procurements exercises as a project manager in recent years (public buildings using ground source, air source, PV, passive air con and solar water) and the general contractors aren't at all phased by the requirements of doing this stuff. The innovative niches are in things like adapting well boring kit for vertical ground source or micro trench for horizontal ground source, and they're being done by existing contractors in those areas. When I looked at the same options for my house my usual plumber / ace guitar player (really) could have done all the work, with a little bit of subbing out to a part P sparks.
With the big power suppliers getting behind this to justify real terms price increases the work is likely to go the way of the big firms, or a market is likely to grow that looks a lot like satellite dish installation - lots of branded contractors working on franchises with just some spaces round the edges for small contractors willing to do the stuff the big boys don't want. That might be a space yo fancy, but it's not all gold... |
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"i advise on renewabl energy at work and as far as i know (i advise business' not domestic but am sure its the same) the FIT ends if the house is sold, the original buyers cant take it with them and the new owners can't re-register the array. obviously they will still benifit from the energy generated by the array though.
OfGem have recently published a document about the renewable tariffs as they launched the
Renewable Heat Incentive for people usng biomass boilers, CHP, graound/air source heat pumps etc. Might be worth having a look at that.
The Energy Savings Trust are good people to talk to regarding domestic solar installations.
One key point is to make sure your installer is registered on the Microgeneration Certification Scheme as i believe tht if they are not you will
not be eligible for the FIT
I didn't know that the FIT ends when the house is sold, so thanks for that. It makes sense really as the FIT is an incentive to install PV panels and not neccessarily as a means of earning tax free income from them as the primary reason for installing them.
And yes, you're correct, a PV system has to be installed by a MSC registered engineer to qualify for the FIT.
The engineer installs the system then notifies the people running the MSC database. The householer then contacts his or her electricity
provider and notifies them that they now qualify for the FIT.
Interestingly, the funds set aside for the FIT are not provided by the taxpayer. The money is paid every three months by the energy provider who you get a bill from and each year the big six energy companies collate their data to determine how much FIT they've paid out and that figure is
then divided by the total amount of customers they have - solar or otherwise. It works out that approximately £10 is added annually to every household electricity bill to pay for the FIT, which means that those who don't have solar arrays are paying for those that do."
That's really interesting as my builder friends were discussing this and their worry is that the government funding will fall through in a time of financial crisis or it will prove to be too popular and the Fit can't be afforded by the Govt. So if the energy provider- how secure is the finance for the future? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
Interestingly, the funds set aside for the FIT are not provided by the taxpayer. The money is paid every three months by the energy provider who you get a bill from and each year the big six energy companies collate their data to determine how much FIT they've paid out and that figure is
then divided by the total amount of customers they have - solar or otherwise. It works out that approximately £10 is added annually to every household electricity bill to pay for the FIT, which means that those who don't have solar arrays are paying for those that do.
~~~
That's really interesting as my builder friends were discussing this and their worry is that the government funding will fall through in a time of financial crisis or it will prove to be too popular and the Fit can't be afforded by the Govt. So if the energy provider- how secure is the finance for the future?"
Well there you go, you can tell them to rest easy as the FIT isn't paid by the govt but by the energy companies, but, having said that, it is the govt who is setting a cap on the FIT on arrays over 50kW. This was becayse large scale arrays were soaking up funding provided by the FIT that was originally intended to go to small household arrays. It does seem obscene that each household connected to the grid, regardless of whether they have energy creation equipment installed or not, should pay large companies and farms for producing energy - which, incidentally, is tax-free.
To answer your orginal question about whether the FIT can be abandoned in the years to come, well, yes it can, as any government can change the law to suit it's policies, but that is where the FIT is somewhat protected as it is incased in law in the Energy Act of 2008. |
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The Two largest Double Glazing and Home Improvement companies in the UK, Everest and Anglian both now do Solar PV/Thermal installation.
Only found this out this week as we are moving into a smaller house over the next couple of months and had quotes in for Double Glazing and a Conservatory. |
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