FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Lady finds it hard to cum
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"Nope, she's not odd. I rarely cum too." Same here... ![]() | |||
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"A lady I met on here told me that she's only ever cum a couple of times. To be honest, I was shocked and couldn't even keep my astonishment from her. On average, I make a lady cum at least once by the 2nd round. What's your experience? Is she just an odd one out? " Nope .., I hardly ever cum.. | |||
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"Nope, she's not odd. I rarely cum too. Same here... ![]() Challenge accepted. ![]() | |||
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"Nope, she's not odd. I rarely cum too. Same here... ![]() ![]() *cringe* ![]() | |||
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"I also hate it when it is really obvious when a man is trying to make you cum. I much prefer the go with the flow and see what happens . It can feel too pressured otherwise x " Totally this. | |||
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"Nope, she's not odd. I rarely cum too. Same here... ![]() ![]() ![]() Over zealous youthful chap lol | |||
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"Nope, she's not odd. I rarely cum too. Same here... ![]() ![]() ![]() Or a joking young fellow. Sarcasm is hard to convey through text. | |||
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"I've never cum durning sex I've come dam close though but I've had plenty of amazing sex so it's all good. " Brings up a question that's probably been asked a million times before... Is cumming absolutely necessary, if the sex is good/great etc? | |||
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"I also hate it when it is really obvious when a man is trying to make you cum. I much prefer the go with the flow and see what happens . It can feel too pressured otherwise x Totally this. " Spot on!! And it can't be forced... I just get annoyed when someone makes it a 'mission' | |||
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"A lady I met on here told me that she's only ever cum a couple of times. To be honest, I was shocked and couldn't even keep my astonishment from her. On average, I make a lady cum at least once by the 2nd round. What's your experience? Is she just an odd one out? " She isn't odd, she isnt shocking or astonishing and it isn't a reflection on you or her. Everyone is different. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... " This is true , but if the technique being employed isn't very good this could also be a reason couldn't it ? | |||
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"I've never cum durning sex I've come dam close though but I've had plenty of amazing sex so it's all good. Brings up a question that's probably been asked a million times before... Is cumming absolutely necessary, if the sex is good/great etc? " No. I never achieve an orgasm with anyone but Mr N or by myself. I'm perfectly happy with this and I won't pretend. We tell guys this if we're going to meet to play so they can choose not to meet if its a problem for them. | |||
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"I also hate it when it is really obvious when a man is trying to make you cum. I much prefer the go with the flow and see what happens . It can feel too pressured otherwise x Totally this. Spot on!! And it can't be forced... I just get annoyed when someone makes it a 'mission'" And then goes all Rambo on you believing harder or faster must be the key... no dude, that's just made me bleed ffs. | |||
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"I've never cum durning sex I've come dam close though but I've had plenty of amazing sex so it's all good. Brings up a question that's probably been asked a million times before... Is cumming absolutely necessary, if the sex is good/great etc? " Well no of course not as I wouldn't bother having sex again. I love having great sex when it happenes that is ![]() | |||
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"It's very common. I don't find it easy either. I don't expect to cum when I meet guys from here. ![]() I never expect to either, even with my partner of 4 years. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... This is true , but if the technique being employed isn't very good this could also be a reason couldn't it ? " Oh yeah, for a lot of people it probably is the technique. Personally I've had a super stressful year and can't unwind enough to be able to cum, even on my own. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... This is true , but if the technique being employed isn't very good this could also be a reason couldn't it ? " It could be, but personally 6% of the women I've have long term relationships couldn't orgasm. They would say they could get up the mountain but not get over it. My technique was good enough for the other 94% and the 6% both said they had the same issue with other partners. Although they might have lied to protect my ego. | |||
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"its a well known fact that a lot of women fake orgasms when having sex ....." What??????? ![]() | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... " Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. | |||
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"I take ages to cum through oral, so long you may need to take a packed lunch and a sleeping bag when you go down on me. Through sex it depends. I love being fucked but i don't always cum, but that doesn't mean i've not enjoyed myself. A lot of men keep asking "how many was that" and "have you cum" and "are you a squirter" and it's all porn laden bullshit. Just adds pressure. " I had one guy actually say to me ' i hope you are keeping count' ![]() | |||
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"A lady I met on here told me that she's only ever cum a couple of times. To be honest, I was shocked and couldn't even keep my astonishment from her. On average, I make a lady cum at least once by the 2nd round. What's your experience? Is she just an odd one out? " I hate to break this to you but you probably don't. Some women fake it as some men are terribly hurt that they don't 'make women cum'. Lots of women don't cum easily, probably more than those that do and lots of them are better doing it themselves or in conjunction with someone. Do you aim to help the woman your with cum before you do? | |||
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"Gess no one has seen the new durex add on itv2. Sum new jell made just for ladies with this problum. Sum times the TV has the arnsar ![]() It isn't a 'problem' it's entirely normal. Durex just want to make a profit, it's what companies do; bring out a new product for gullible consumers and hey presto, profits are up across al their other ranges. | |||
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"Gess no one has seen the new durex add on itv2. Sum new jell made just for ladies with this problum. Sum times the TV has the arnsar ![]() I've used stuff similar to that before and it doesn't work. It's all down to the women and her mind letting go and allowing it. That's why I never believe I man when he says he can make me cum. | |||
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"Gess no one has seen the new durex add on itv2. Sum new jell made just for ladies with this problum. Sum times the TV has the arnsar ![]() It isn't the answer. Also I would be very wary of putting something like that on me. | |||
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"No guy has ever made me Orgasm ![]() ![]() Was the info any like my post post above ? | |||
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"Gess no one has seen the new durex add on itv2. Sum new jell made just for ladies with this problum. Sum times the TV has the arnsar ![]() I think you're right not to as well. Why we can't just be naked and enjoy the experience without goals and races I'll never know. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. " Interesting as I hold my breath, for quite some time actually. I often impress myself! | |||
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"Nope, she's not odd. I rarely cum too. Same here... ![]() Snap i find it very hard to cum ![]() | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. " It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |||
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"No guy has ever made me Orgasm ![]() ![]() Well I man that knows his stuff, well done sir. Although there are many other reasons for women not to able to climax. ![]() | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" That's a sure fire way of making sure I don't cum,the minute someone puts pressure on me it's probably not going to happen. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. Interesting as I hold my breath, for quite some time actually. I often impress myself!" I love experimenting. There are other factors sure but if you think about it, without getting personal - I am pretty sure on build you'll be breathing normally. | |||
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"So mutch for my idear. At lest I tried to help ![]() No idea is a bad idea! I'm sure for some women it may help as a placebo. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Guaranteed there are shit fucks. But we are talking about women that have a problem coming. Are you saying women that have had sex with multiple partners have consistently met men without technique that have put them on edge? I was only offering an alternative not an absolute fact. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Ahem, must "let go of all fear and anxiety" = lady feeling relaxed | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guaranteed there are shit fucks. But we are talking about women that have a problem coming. Are you saying women that have had sex with multiple partners have consistently met men without technique that have put them on edge? I was only offering an alternative not an absolute fact. " I can count on one hand of men who have actually given me a good time in bed! They have pressured me, expected me to cum in seconds, not listened to anything I have said. Women are not machines with an on/off switch, we are humans whose orgasms are linked to our thought process and our state of mind. Men need to communicate, get to know what we want and not to think they know what we want. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guaranteed there are shit fucks. But we are talking about women that have a problem coming. Are you saying women that have had sex with multiple partners have consistently met men without technique that have put them on edge? I was only offering an alternative not an absolute fact. " Exactly, it could be either. Sometimes the man is shit and stops the woman relaxing and she normally cums. Some women just have issues relaxing and never cum with any guys. I've been in both situations personally. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guaranteed there are shit fucks. But we are talking about women that have a problem coming. Are you saying women that have had sex with multiple partners have consistently met men without technique that have put them on edge? I was only offering an alternative not an absolute fact. I can count on one hand of men who have actually given me a good time in bed! They have pressured me, expected me to cum in seconds, not listened to anything I have said. Women are not machines with an on/off switch, we are humans whose orgasms are linked to our thought process and our state of mind. Men need to communicate, get to know what we want and not to think they know what we want. " Do you think the average male in this country is bad at sex or you've chosen to have sex with men who are below the average? | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guaranteed there are shit fucks. But we are talking about women that have a problem coming. Are you saying women that have had sex with multiple partners have consistently met men without technique that have put them on edge? I was only offering an alternative not an absolute fact. I can count on one hand of men who have actually given me a good time in bed! They have pressured me, expected me to cum in seconds, not listened to anything I have said. Women are not machines with an on/off switch, we are humans whose orgasms are linked to our thought process and our state of mind. Men need to communicate, get to know what we want and not to think they know what we want. Do you think the average male in this country is bad at sex or you've chosen to have sex with men who are below the average? " I think the average male in this country is bad at sex! Just see the replies in this thread. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guaranteed there are shit fucks. But we are talking about women that have a problem coming. Are you saying women that have had sex with multiple partners have consistently met men without technique that have put them on edge? I was only offering an alternative not an absolute fact. I can count on one hand of men who have actually given me a good time in bed! They have pressured me, expected me to cum in seconds, not listened to anything I have said. Women are not machines with an on/off switch, we are humans whose orgasms are linked to our thought process and our state of mind. Men need to communicate, get to know what we want and not to think they know what we want. Do you think the average male in this country is bad at sex or you've chosen to have sex with men who are below the average? I think the average male in this country is bad at sex! Just see the replies in this thread. " If the number of exclamation marks is anything to go by, there's quite a lot! ![]() | |||
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"No I don't orgasm easily at all it's a real struggle and that's just with my toys x" I just think it's unfair not to make a woman cum. When only the guy cums, he's done and satisfied leaving the lady horny and cranky. | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guaranteed there are shit fucks. But we are talking about women that have a problem coming. Are you saying women that have had sex with multiple partners have consistently met men without technique that have put them on edge? I was only offering an alternative not an absolute fact. I can count on one hand of men who have actually given me a good time in bed! They have pressured me, expected me to cum in seconds, not listened to anything I have said. Women are not machines with an on/off switch, we are humans whose orgasms are linked to our thought process and our state of mind. Men need to communicate, get to know what we want and not to think they know what we want. Do you think the average male in this country is bad at sex or you've chosen to have sex with men who are below the average? I think the average male in this country is bad at sex! Just see the replies in this thread. " If you struggle to cum, I'm in Bradford. My average is once every 2 rounds guaranteed! | |||
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"We played with a woman who would only cum for her husband she would hold off for anyone else, like all stimulation most of it is mental xx" Now that's loyalty. ![]() ![]() | |||
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"Only time i cum is when i jump on top and grt into 5th gear! The look of fear on their face is priceless lol" At least you know what works for you, this lady had no idea. If you ever find yourself in Bradford, you can ride me ![]() | |||
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"Only time i cum is when i jump on top and grt into 5th gear! The look of fear on their face is priceless lol" It's because you didn't let the handbrake off lol........ ![]() | |||
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"Only time i cum is when i jump on top and grt into 5th gear! The look of fear on their face is priceless lol" That sounds like my idea of a good time, like a woman who rides me hard ![]() | |||
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"A lot of woman can only come through oral or the help of a toy its a well known fact that a lot of women fake orgasms when having sex ....." ![]() | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() I always deliver though. I probably should monetize my skill then. Lol! The Gordon Ramsay of orgasm | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Guaranteed there are shit fucks. But we are talking about women that have a problem coming. Are you saying women that have had sex with multiple partners have consistently met men without technique that have put them on edge? I was only offering an alternative not an absolute fact. I can count on one hand of men who have actually given me a good time in bed! They have pressured me, expected me to cum in seconds, not listened to anything I have said. Women are not machines with an on/off switch, we are humans whose orgasms are linked to our thought process and our state of mind. Men need to communicate, get to know what we want and not to think they know what we want. Do you think the average male in this country is bad at sex or you've chosen to have sex with men who are below the average? I think the average male in this country is bad at sex! Just see the replies in this thread. If you struggle to cum, I'm in Bradford. My average is once every 2 rounds guaranteed! " No thanks! | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() If I had £100 for every guy that said that to me... ![]() | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() Yep me too, they're so full of cow do do arent they? | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() Well, it's the fact | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() Well,Morley is less than 30 minutes drive ; I double Dare you. | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() Cow do do! So I'm now a 'challenge' for the men on Fab am I?!?! | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() So. You call him out: "they're so full of cow do do arent they?" and he accepts: "Morley is less than 30 minutes drive" And you turn it into a victim post? ![]() | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Actually if you scroll back I was replying to someone else's quote not his! I'm not a challenge for Fab men full stop. | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() No, you're NOT a challenge ![]() | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() Have you actually bothered to read and understand any of the posts on here? Here's a fact for you; I can guarantee that a high percentage of women you think have had one or two orgasms at your hands, will have faked them just to make you stop trying. | |||
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"Only time i cum is when i jump on top and grt into 5th gear! The look of fear on their face is priceless lol At least you know what works for you, this lady had no idea. If you ever find yourself in Bradford, you can ride me ![]() ![]() | |||
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" Actually if you scroll back I was replying to someone else's quote not his! I'm not a challenge for Fab men full stop. " You sound like Donald Trump. | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() I don't try, I just make then cum. Please the vaginal spasm can't be faked. I'm sorry if frequent orgasm isn't what you're used too. I honestly feel that it's not fair to leave a woman unfinished. | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() Actually yes it can, with strong enough muscles i can make it 'spasm' myself | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() hahahah ![]() ![]() | |||
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"A lady I met on here told me that she's only ever cum a couple of times. To be honest, I was shocked and couldn't even keep my astonishment from her. On average, I make a lady cum at least once by the 2nd round. What's your experience? Is she just an odd one out? " Maybe your just a sex god !!! Or full of it lol | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() I guess I will stop trying to prove what I actually do and leave it to the women I meet to enjoy. ![]() | |||
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"A lady I met on here told me that she's only ever cum a couple of times. To be honest, I was shocked and couldn't even keep my astonishment from her. On average, I make a lady cum at least once by the 2nd round. What's your experience? Is she just an odd one out? Maybe your just a sex god !!! Or full of it lol " Maybe ![]() | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() You do realise you can't tell women what good sex is don't you. You're going to lose from the off. It's part of knowing what good sex is. | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() 'Women' ![]() | |||
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"For various reasons I find it difficult to orgasm. As long as I've had a good time it doesn't have to be at the top of the agenda. There are many ways to enjoy sex. I know of some guys who don't find it easy to cum but they can still have a good time. " It's either medical or psychological when it's a guy though | |||
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"And yet all your veries are from men hmmm ;@" 3some innit | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" For me, breathing probably has got a lot to do with it because I know I tense up and hold my breath and then I don't orgasm. I have to really concentrate on breathing normally ![]() | |||
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"I've never cum durning sex I've come dam close though but I've had plenty of amazing sex so it's all good. Brings up a question that's probably been asked a million times before... Is cumming absolutely necessary, if the sex is good/great etc? " It is all about giving and receiving pleasure in many varied ways with someone you click with. If you orgasm it is great, and the icing on the cake, but I've had some great meets where neither party has cum, doesn't mean it wasn't incredibly enjoyable! | |||
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"Research using positron emission tomography has shown that in order to orgamsm a person has to "let go of all fear and anxiety". Uptight people have issues cumming... Apparently it is to do with breathing and a simple reflex in forgetting to inhale/exhale normally throughout climax. Sometimes this is put down to anxiety as it becomes an 'issue', though I heard a biological approach that said as blood flow and increased stimulation is centred on areas other than the brain, the respiratory system doesn't kick in as it normally would. By breathing at the point of climax oxygen is available to the brain and organs and allows sensory loads - overloads ... Or words to that effect. It's nothing to do with breathing! It's to do with the lady feeling relaxed, also it's about technique! Men think they know what we want but most haven't a clue! I've also been asked 'how many times', 'come for me baby', 'go on girl cum' then I lose interest and have faked it to get him off me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For me, breathing probably has got a lot to do with it because I know I tense up and hold my breath and then I don't orgasm. I have to really concentrate on breathing normally ![]() ![]() | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() You have no idea what I am used to and what I'm hoping to do is help you think of things in a different way. Why is it your decision if a woman should have an orgasm or not? Why is having an orgasm so important? Can't we all just enjoy being naked and the whole experience? | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() The problem is that some men 'think' they know what women want sexually, only women know what they want so communication and listening is very important! | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() I don't believe in making decisions for people. I just have never been told "I just want to be naked with you and not orgasm". But what do I know? | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() There are very few problems in sex. It's a very natural, obsessive, raucous, passionate, sensual thing. | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() Because they don't feel like a man if the woman hasn't had an orgasm, it's constantly on their mind during sex with 'come for me baby' etc etc etc. They are basically trying to prove they are men.....it's all cow do do really. | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() So sorry this is your experience though. | |||
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"Im really hard to make cum and it takes a while but i dont have to come to enjoy sex and i dont fake it " ![]() | |||
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" Because they don't feel like a man if the woman hasn't had an orgasm, it's constantly on their mind during sex with 'come for me baby' etc etc etc. They are basically trying to prove they are men.....it's all cow do do really. " Holy titty fucking shit. From a guys point of view it sounds like a finger up the bum that. | |||
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"Im really hard to make cum and it takes a while but i dont have to come to enjoy sex and i dont fake it ![]() I have only 'faked' it if he has been pressuring me to come and hence turned me right off, faking was much easier than saying 'get the hell off me'. | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() Yep, and a race to get there. Must make her cum. Must make her cum. Must make her cum. Must make her cum. | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() But it's what you're doing! Not stopping until the woman is 'satisfied'. | |||
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"I thought I was unusual in not being able to cum with a guy very often - and agreed - it's very off putting when a guy tries to make you ![]() ![]() ![]() He can't be blamed for the experiences women on here have had with other men ![]() | |||
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" Because they don't feel like a man if the woman hasn't had an orgasm, it's constantly on their mind during sex with 'come for me baby' etc etc etc. They are basically trying to prove they are men.....it's all cow do do really. Holy titty fucking shit. From a guys point of view it sounds like a finger up the bum that. " As the title of the book 'women are from mars, men are from venus'.....men struggle to understand what we need. | |||
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" Because they don't feel like a man if the woman hasn't had an orgasm, it's constantly on their mind during sex with 'come for me baby' etc etc etc. They are basically trying to prove they are men.....it's all cow do do really. Holy titty fucking shit. From a guys point of view it sounds like a finger up the bum that. As the title of the book 'women are from mars, men are from venus'.....men struggle to understand what we need. " And some women struggle to understand what men need too. | |||
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" Because they don't feel like a man if the woman hasn't had an orgasm, it's constantly on their mind during sex with 'come for me baby' etc etc etc. They are basically trying to prove they are men.....it's all cow do do really. Holy titty fucking shit. From a guys point of view it sounds like a finger up the bum that. As the title of the book 'women are from mars, men are from venus'.....men struggle to understand what we need. And some women struggle to understand what men need too." Nah men are straight forward! They just want us to cum, that's clear from the replies on here....'come for me baby'.....'cum again you can do it'.....'go girl go girl'.....grunt grunt grunt (him)! | |||
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" Because they don't feel like a man if the woman hasn't had an orgasm, it's constantly on their mind during sex with 'come for me baby' etc etc etc. They are basically trying to prove they are men.....it's all cow do do really. Holy titty fucking shit. From a guys point of view it sounds like a finger up the bum that. As the title of the book 'women are from mars, men are from venus'.....men struggle to understand what we need. And some women struggle to understand what men need too. Nah men are straight forward! They just want us to cum, that's clear from the replies on here....'come for me baby'.....'cum again you can do it'.....'go girl go girl'.....grunt grunt grunt (him)!" You realise it is only you that is and has posted that. Everybody else has given a different take on why they have trouble coming or how they are tackling it. You are just banging the same drum offering nothing but men need to listen to women and women, well - they are just ace. | |||
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" Because they don't feel like a man if the woman hasn't had an orgasm, it's constantly on their mind during sex with 'come for me baby' etc etc etc. They are basically trying to prove they are men.....it's all cow do do really. Holy titty fucking shit. From a guys point of view it sounds like a finger up the bum that. As the title of the book 'women are from mars, men are from venus'.....men struggle to understand what we need. And some women struggle to understand what men need too. Nah men are straight forward! They just want us to cum, that's clear from the replies on here....'come for me baby'.....'cum again you can do it'.....'go girl go girl'.....grunt grunt grunt (him)!" That kind of stuff just makes me cringe. Unsexy and such a turnoff. | |||
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" Because they don't feel like a man if the woman hasn't had an orgasm, it's constantly on their mind during sex with 'come for me baby' etc etc etc. They are basically trying to prove they are men.....it's all cow do do really. Holy titty fucking shit. From a guys point of view it sounds like a finger up the bum that. As the title of the book 'women are from mars, men are from venus'.....men struggle to understand what we need. And some women struggle to understand what men need too. Nah men are straight forward! They just want us to cum, that's clear from the replies on here....'come for me baby'.....'cum again you can do it'.....'go girl go girl'.....grunt grunt grunt (him)! You realise it is only you that is and has posted that. Everybody else has given a different take on why they have trouble coming or how they are tackling it. You are just banging the same drum offering nothing but men need to listen to women and women, well - they are just ace. " If you re-visit the thread from the start there are quite a few ladies commented on how they feel pressured during sex by the man to cum so therefore can't cum because of it. Now STOP getting defensive on this thread as we are only giving our opinion on why we can't cum and the pressure is a factor. Btw I've never played the drums!!! | |||
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"Wow this thread is a real eye opener! Sex with no orgasm... just seems like a fruitless task!" exactly what I have been saying! | |||
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"Wow this thread is a real eye opener! Sex with no orgasm... just seems like a fruitless task! exactly what I have been saying!" Why is sex without an orgasm a fruitless task? | |||
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"It's very common. I don't find it easy either. I don't expect to cum when I meet guys from here. ![]() me either. I can and do with Mr with relative ease but im unlikely to with meets but thats not what im here for x | |||
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"Nope, she's not odd. I rarely cum too. Same here... ![]() ![]() ![]() ^ ^ ^ agree on cringe why does it have to be a challenge.. if the fem senses that.. its even more unlikely to happen | |||
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"Wow this thread is a real eye opener! Sex with no orgasm... just seems like a fruitless task! exactly what I have been saying! Why is sex without an orgasm a fruitless task? " Beat me to it. May as well wank if all there is is an orgasm. | |||
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"Wow this thread is a real eye opener! Sex with no orgasm... just seems like a fruitless task! exactly what I have been saying!" so... when you guys can no longer get it up.. youre gonna stop all sex play then.. cos hey.. whats the point !! | |||
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"Its not just women. I had a man tell me that he rarely reached orgasm. I didn't make it an issue or make it my soul goal to make myself feel like I'd achieved something. We just enjoyed each other ![]() ![]() You know he was probably lying to get you to spend more time on him ![]() | |||
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"Second meet I had through fab. The woman said the same thing. I fucked her hard and deep for an hour and nothing but a sore cock to show for it. ![]() Poor you! | |||
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"Second meet I had through fab. The woman said the same thing. I fucked her hard and deep for an hour and nothing but a sore cock to show for it. ![]() Did you 'expect' her to cum during the one hour of deep hard fucking? | |||
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"A lady I met on here told me that she's only ever cum a couple of times. To be honest, I was shocked and couldn't even keep my astonishment from her. On average, I make a lady cum at least once by the 2nd round. What's your experience? Is she just an odd one out? " I must be really lucky then cause I've never had a meet where I haven't cum at least once and with the right person I just start losing count Some bigger than others The louder I am the better the more explosive the orgasm and if I'm swearing my head off it's spread to my whole body | |||
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"Wow this thread is a real eye opener! Sex with no orgasm... just seems like a fruitless task!" Exactly what we think . Bit like reading a book and leaving the last chapter out ! Or watching a film and leaving ten minutes before the end . Sex , like most things has a beginning , a middle and for those of us who see it like this .... yes , an end ! Who would have thought it ? ![]() | |||
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"It's very common. I don't find it easy either. I don't expect to cum when I meet guys from here. ![]() I used to be like this, not so much now as i know my body a lot better but i still think i seem hard work compared to a lot of women out there. It'll literally be once in a blue moon I'll find a man who makes me melt so to speak. | |||
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"For various reasons I find it difficult to orgasm. As long as I've had a good time it doesn't have to be at the top of the agenda. There are many ways to enjoy sex. I know of some guys who don't find it easy to cum but they can still have a good time. Or they are a Dom and control their orgasms! It's either medical or psychological when it's a guy though " | |||
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"A lady I met on here told me that she's only ever cum a couple of times. To be honest, I was shocked and couldn't even keep my astonishment from her. On average, I make a lady cum at least once by the 2nd round. What's your experience? Is she just an odd one out? " No she isn't the odd one out. I can't tell you how much my stomach squirms when a man claims he can MAKE women cum. People aren't the same twice in a row let alone the same with each partner. | |||
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"A lady I met on here told me that she's only ever cum a couple of times. To be honest, I was shocked and couldn't even keep my astonishment from her. On average, I make a lady cum at least once by the 2nd round. What's your experience? Is she just an odd one out? No she isn't the odd one out. I can't tell you how much my stomach squirms when a man claims he can MAKE women cum. People aren't the same twice in a row let alone the same with each partner. " Yes it's squirm worthy when men say they MAKE a woman cum. It's all about state of mind, technique, attraction, connection. We are not robots with on/off switches at the side of our foreheads.......GOODNESS! | |||
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"Gess no one has seen the new durex add on itv2. Sum new jell made just for ladies with this problum. Sum times the TV has the arnsar ![]() This amuses me. There are two people having sex. One of them doesn't cum so it's HER fault. Thousands of women who don't come can't come. The other many thousands that don't cum don't because of a lack of pre fuck stimulation e.g stroking, caressing, talking, flirting, kissing ( just natural lubricants and relaxers to women ) If a man lacks knowledge of womens sexuality and bangs away as if he's trying to bruised her bloody womb..... shouldn't he take some responsibility ? Cum Shmum..... women can enjoy the ride | |||
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"Wow this thread is a real eye opener! Sex with no orgasm... just seems like a fruitless task! Exactly what we think . Bit like reading a book and leaving the last chapter out ! Or watching a film and leaving ten minutes before the end . Sex , like most things has a beginning , a middle and for those of us who see it like this .... yes , an end ! Who would have thought it ? ![]() see i can count on one hand the meets ive orgasmed on.. yet enjoyed most of them. Yet my huge double standard is if a guy doesnt cum.. I am left disappointed ![]() | |||
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"Wow this thread is a real eye opener! Sex with no orgasm... just seems like a fruitless task! Exactly what we think . Bit like reading a book and leaving the last chapter out ! Or watching a film and leaving ten minutes before the end . Sex , like most things has a beginning , a middle and for those of us who see it like this .... yes , an end ! Who would have thought it ? ![]() ![]() I guess we are lucky . S cums every time , sometimes within seconds . And like yourself , it's a huge dissapointment if the guy doesn't cum ![]() | |||
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"Wow this thread is a real eye opener! Sex with no orgasm... just seems like a fruitless task! Exactly what we think . Bit like reading a book and leaving the last chapter out ! Or watching a film and leaving ten minutes before the end . Sex , like most things has a beginning , a middle and for those of us who see it like this .... yes , an end ! Who would have thought it ? ![]() ![]() ![]() I cam cum in seconds. I Just dont hardly ever on meets x | |||
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"I can only make myself cum. I always feel pressured to be acting a certain way during oral etc, i can be a bit noisy in certain positions but during oral i can be deathly silent just some heavy breathing but guys then assume im not enjoying it and stop. But then most seem to think sucking on my clit or even worse nibbling it is sexy..nope it hurts like hell, next guy who does it im going to bite his cock and see how enjoyable that is! " Haha this is so true! Porn has a lot to answer for! ![]() | |||
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"Ladies why don't we all start 'cock biting' and see how the men like pain and discomfort? Also have any ladies noticed how rough men are when fingering us? They treat our bits like it's the black hole of Calcutta!!! It bloody hurts sometimes. The next man who does that to me is going to know about it! " Totally with you on this. I'm sure they are trying to reach places which should never be reached. Ouch. As for biting, one man I know actually likes that ![]() | |||
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"I'm sure most guys can tell if a woman has cum from the muscles contracting inside. " Not forgetting the way her back arches.... ![]() | |||
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"I can only make myself cum. I always feel pressured to be acting a certain way during oral etc, i can be a bit noisy in certain positions but during oral i can be deathly silent just some heavy breathing but guys then assume im not enjoying it and stop. But then most seem to think sucking on my clit or even worse nibbling it is sexy..nope it hurts like hell, next guy who does it im going to bite his cock and see how enjoyable that is! " This is what my mrs says. She's had guys doing a good job with there tongue then they suddenly stop and stick a condom on and start fucking away or they start sucking and nibbling her clit. It's always taken her a while to have the first orgasm but can orgasm fairly quickly after the first one. Again taking your time and think about the women not the end game can help. | |||
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"I've met women who cum repeatedly and fairly easily, and those who hardly cum at all. I must admit, I prefer playing with someone who regularly cums during sex - I really get off on making my partners orgasm." My partner likes this as I cum a lot - he will just smirk at me sometimes when I cum really hard...... then makes me do it all over again, and again..... ![]() | |||
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"Enjoy the journey rather than yearning for the destination." ![]() | |||
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"Ladies why don't we all start 'cock biting' and see how the men like pain and discomfort? Also have any ladies noticed how rough men are when fingering us? They treat our bits like it's the black hole of Calcutta!!! It bloody hurts sometimes. The next man who does that to me is going to know about it! " Hahaha! It's a misconception from watching too many pornography! | |||
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"Ladies why don't we all start 'cock biting' and see how the men like pain and discomfort? Also have any ladies noticed how rough men are when fingering us? They treat our bits like it's the black hole of Calcutta!!! It bloody hurts sometimes. The next man who does that to me is going to know about it! " Every man who does it should know about it. If you say nothing they will think its ok. | |||
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"Ladies why don't we all start 'cock biting' and see how the men like pain and discomfort? Also have any ladies noticed how rough men are when fingering us? They treat our bits like it's the black hole of Calcutta!!! It bloody hurts sometimes. The next man who does that to me is going to know about it! Every man who does it should know about it. If you say nothing they will think its ok." Yes I have said something like 'be gentle' - I can't get clearer than that! They don't listen because it's mainly about them MAKING us cum! The answer is I become a lesbian! Men haven't a clue about our bodies.... ![]() | |||
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"Ladies why don't we all start 'cock biting' and see how the men like pain and discomfort? Also have any ladies noticed how rough men are when fingering us? They treat our bits like it's the black hole of Calcutta!!! It bloody hurts sometimes. The next man who does that to me is going to know about it! Every man who does it should know about it. If you say nothing they will think its ok. Yes I have said something like 'be gentle' - I can't get clearer than that! They don't listen because it's mainly about them MAKING us cum! The answer is I become a lesbian! Men haven't a clue about our bodies.... ![]() ill listen to what a lady tells me, always willing to learn after all it's all experience | |||
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"Try sending her round the mountain driving six white horses in pink pyjamas. That should do the trick" haha. Always giggle at that song | |||
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"Ladies why don't we all start 'cock biting' and see how the men like pain and discomfort? Also have any ladies noticed how rough men are when fingering us? They treat our bits like it's the black hole of Calcutta!!! It bloody hurts sometimes. The next man who does that to me is going to know about it! Every man who does it should know about it. If you say nothing they will think its ok. Yes I have said something like 'be gentle' - I can't get clearer than that! They don't listen because it's mainly about them MAKING us cum! The answer is I become a lesbian! Men haven't a clue about our bodies.... ![]() Communication is key. I think expectations should be clearly discussed before play. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) |
"Ladies why don't we all start 'cock biting' and see how the men like pain and discomfort? Also have any ladies noticed how rough men are when fingering us? They treat our bits like it's the black hole of Calcutta!!! It bloody hurts sometimes. The next man who does that to me is going to know about it! Every man who does it should know about it. If you say nothing they will think its ok. Yes I have said something like 'be gentle' - I can't get clearer than that! They don't listen because it's mainly about them MAKING us cum! The answer is I become a lesbian! Men haven't a clue about our bodies.... ![]() I'll sit down with an agenda, put it in writing lol list all likes and dislikes, then I'll be turned right off and get a big mug of Yorkshire Tea! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) |
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) |
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) |
"Ladies why don't we all start 'cock biting' and see how the men like pain and discomfort? Also have any ladies noticed how rough men are when fingering us? They treat our bits like it's the black hole of Calcutta!!! It bloody hurts sometimes. The next man who does that to me is going to know about it! Every man who does it should know about it. If you say nothing they will think its ok. Yes I have said something like 'be gentle' - I can't get clearer than that! They don't listen because it's mainly about them MAKING us cum! The answer is I become a lesbian! Men haven't a clue about our bodies.... ![]() I don't think having a negative attitude will help ![]() | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) |
"Nope, she's not odd. I rarely cum too. Same here... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) |
"Ladies why don't we all start 'cock biting' and see how the men like pain and discomfort? Also have any ladies noticed how rough men are when fingering us? They treat our bits like it's the black hole of Calcutta!!! It bloody hurts sometimes. The next man who does that to me is going to know about it! Every man who does it should know about it. If you say nothing they will think its ok. Yes I have said something like 'be gentle' - I can't get clearer than that! They don't listen because it's mainly about them MAKING us cum! The answer is I become a lesbian! Men haven't a clue about our bodies.... ![]() ![]() My attitude isn't negative I'm just responding in the thread. I do think the men on here could learn a lot from this thread. It seems clear to me from reading the men's responses that 'cumming' is the be all and end all and they MAKE us cum. No body can MAKE anyone do anything. As I said further up its about technique, state of mind, connection, attraction. Maybe if the men concentrated on that then sex would be lots better for the woman and in the long run the man. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) |
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) |
"Ladies why don't we all start 'cock biting' and see how the men like pain and discomfort? Also have any ladies noticed how rough men are when fingering us? They treat our bits like it's the black hole of Calcutta!!! It bloody hurts sometimes. The next man who does that to me is going to know about it! Every man who does it should know about it. If you say nothing they will think its ok. Yes I have said something like 'be gentle' - I can't get clearer than that! They don't listen because it's mainly about them MAKING us cum! The answer is I become a lesbian! Men haven't a clue about our bodies.... ![]() ![]() ![]() | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) |