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Public sector strikes
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And thats what they are doing | |||
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"for the strike,,why should the government be allowed to move the goalpost when it suits them" there the government, there the people you voted for to make the change.. to be honest am for the strikes; dont care what cameron says there not allowed 2 strike, maybe he should start to listen to the people who voted him stop the cuts he done it to soon. this wont end if he continues this. | |||
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"I work for a trade union, so for! Although the irony is I have a non-contributory final salaries pension which was a selling point in taking my job. I've been told I'll probably have to contribute 6% of my salary into my pension! Pot...kettle...black! " You should go on strike for the lulz | |||
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"I am for, I love how they say were living longer but look in any paper and see the death page and day in and out you see under 68yr old dying. So at present these ppl may get 2-3 yes retirement. The govt is saying as a few are living longer everyone should pay more.... However its upper class or upper middle who can afford to pay more not the lower class's Lol you can see I not long wrote essay on this lol" Did you include the fact in certain jobs like firefighter,male teacher, the death rate is higher than average for their socio economic group? hi btw , i like your pic  | |||
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Yer I did thANks lol that's why most paramedics, firefighters ect take early retirement but looks like that now gone lol
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" Teachers and other public sector workers did not crash the banks, why should their pensions be raided to pay the bills?" For the same reason that Gordon Brown deemed it to prudent to massively raid private pension schemes from 1997 onwards? Re "gold plated pensions" from Robert Peston, BBC Business Editor on whether public sector workers should be immune to economic cuts. Hutton ( independent Hutton Report ) agrees to this extent. He did argue that the taxpayer was unfairly subsidising public sector workers pensions which are much more generous than those in the private sector (almost all public sector workers are on defined benefit schemes whereas only just over one in 10 private sector workers get a guaranteed company pension). | |||
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"At the risk of getting bared by all teaching swingers, I think it is premature for them to strike, - the kids will suffer, and the parents have to pay, either loosing pay, day's off or Holiday entitlement. Meanwhile, it's great to park in Southampton with no Traffic Wardens ! They should strike forever and then the town centre's might stand a chance of survival. Have you ever heard of an independent retailer going on strike ? The money saved from not paying traffic wardens should go to the Bin Men who do a great job clearing all our crap. "+1 Hurray for the cleaners | |||
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"The Government says public opinion is against the strikes and the unions state the opposite. Taking Fab as a cross section of the general population, are you for or against them?" i am totally for ,if we are "all in it together" let the mps give up there exhorbitant pension rights and hit the banks first before anyone else,no bank management should get a bonus until they have repaid the country what they owe in my opinion | |||
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"At the risk of getting bared by all teaching swingers, I think it is premature for them to strike, - the kids will suffer, and the parents have to pay, either loosing pay, day's off or Holiday entitlement. " At the risk of stating the obvious if no-one suffered, then what would be the point of a strike? 
It's just like when the BA staff were on strike; the paying public suffered by not getting the flights they had pre-booked but it got the bosses of BA to sit up and take notice seeing as they lost so much money during that time.
All for the stikes here but doubt it will make a difference as the current Government won't listen anyway. | |||
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"def for them. It's about time us as a nation stood up for ourselves!! The country is in a sorry state yet we still insist on handing money to other countrys left right and centre. I'm all for helping people less fortunate than ourselves but not when our own economy is on its knee's" + 1 | |||
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"The Government says public opinion is against the strikes and the unions state the opposite. Taking Fab as a cross section of the general population, are you for or against them? i am totally for ,if we are "all in it together" let the mps give up there exhorbitant pension rights and hit the banks first before anyone else,no bank management should get a bonus until they have repaid the country what they owe in my opinion" Likewise, if we are all in it together then why should the public sector be protected from the cuts? Yet again, they expect the private sector to take up the slack and leave them sitting on golden nest eggs whislt guffawing at the very people who paid for it. I'm against the strikes 100% and the cost of it should come out of those very pension funds that we, the private sector taxpayers, have paid for. | |||
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"Current local govmnt worker and totally against the strikes, not only will they not achieve anything, i don't personally see that there's anything to be achieved anyway... I'm happy for my pension to be in line with the rest of the UK workforce, i certainly don't expect or deserve better pay or conditions than if I was in the public sector and don't see why we should be fighting to keep them. Because it's always been that way is not a great excuse and I know as an organisation we do nothing to justify them. I came into my post because it was in line with my education and background, not for the 'perks', and would happily give them up if the same job was available in the private sector. And i'm not striking today as i'm not in the Union - primarily as i don't agree with them funding the Labour party. " Common sense prevails. Well done! (where's the clapping profusely icon when you need it?) | |||
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" And what do people make of the £250m worth of "public strikes" to remove Gaddafi then? " When we hear of a tyrant systematically murdering his own people it is often closely followed by mutterings like, "we must never let this happen again!" Yet when those words are put into practice, the clarion call most often heard then is, "why are we spending this much money on it?" Isn't that a paradox? Gadaffi had to go and the Libyan people are trying to do the job of freeing themselves from a tyrant and that should be applauded, and assisted, whatever the monetary cost. | |||
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"Funny how there is always a few quid lying around for a war or two. Didn't that Battle for Helmand programme on tv last night teach us anything? £9,000,000,000 down the tube there. And no this isn't a bash on the lads and lasses in the services as they do an absolutely fantastic and brave job under very difficult circumstances. it's the leadership I question." If you can accept that it is perfectly ok for women to be executed for being educated, that music and television is a sin and are therefore banned completely, or that men and women can be stoned to death for falling in love then yes £9bn does seem like a waste of money. Some things have no monetary value in the wider scheme of things and the taliban had to be removed, the same as Saddam had to go too. | |||
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" Are you saying the Taliban have been removed? And would you rather old folks freeze at home, rather than use that £9bn at home? We can no longer afford to be the world's policemen, if ever we were." There are Afghan women training to be fighter pilots, music is now commonly heard all over Afghanistan and a fledgling democracy is taking root although admittedly it has a long long way to go to be considered a true democracy. I'd say that that is a clear indication that the Taliban no longer rule that country through fear and murder. Either we in the West uphold our lofty ideals of freedom from persecution wherever it raises it's ugly head, or we stop shouting out about the good fight if we don't want to get our hands dirty with it. We can't have it both ways. You have a vote, so if it means that much then use that vote in disregard of everything else you feel strongly about. I for one support everything that we've tried to do in Iraq and Afghanistan - and now Libya come to that - and it would be an insult to the memory of all those who gave their lives believing in too to say that we should never have gone into either country. I watched the 'Our War' programme and it is clear that the soldiers on the ground over there feel an immense sense of pride in what they've achieved and when they are old and grey I hope they look back and think, "I helped to build that country" - and I hope I can say it too ever though I never had to physically go there. | |||
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"Well i am going to have to work till 66 so i don't see why i should pay for some other sod to retire at 60. Its a bit rich if you ask me. " Here here ! | |||
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"The Government says public opinion is against the strikes and the unions state the opposite. Taking Fab as a cross section of the general population, are you for or against them?" For the strike without reservation. The UK has the fourth greatest gap between rich and poor in the entire developed world and this has come about because we the British people are often too meek for our own good . All too often we grumble to ourselves but do nothing. The strikers should be applauded for their courage and supported. | |||
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"Regardless of whether I agree with the strike or not, I find the attitude "if I can't have it, then why should you" to be utterly repugnant "I would agree with you on that. Its a shame there isn't money for everyone to retire at 60 but there just isn't the money available. | |||
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" The UK has the fourth greatest gap between rich and poor in the entire developed world and this has come about because we the British people are often too meek for our own good . " An very qualified statement, when you consider the extremity of the difference between rich and poor in the 2nd world and most especially in 3rd world countries. Fact of the matter is that developed countries have a much lower rich/poor divides than any other class of country. This has nothing to do with unionism or strikes. It's a much more macro-economic affair. A combination of enormous wealth generation and higher productivity levels and the 3 generation affect. | |||
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"The Government says public opinion is against the strikes and the unions state the opposite. Taking Fab as a cross section of the general population, are you for or against them?" Stiking is not something anyone does lightly ,its a last resort when all other options r exhausted and left with no other action to take ! Why should public sector employees be expected to work longer ,,,pay more and get less of a pension than they have been promised for the vast majority of their working life just because the bankers have balls up the finance of this country !!!!!!!! while the politicans sit there on their gold plated pensions preaching to us all !!!!!!!!!!!!  | |||
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" Stiking is not something anyone does lightly ,its a last resort when all other options r exhausted and left with no other action to take ! " Indeed.... which is why I don't support the strike action at this point. Talks were still open and an option. They were not out of time, no dealine has been reached. | |||
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"It's quite simple, they should pay for their own pensions out of their own salaries like everyone else has to. That would be the democratic way of doing things." That's not the employment contract that public sector workers signed up to though when they agreed to take the job they were offered with all the benefits that were promised to them at the time. I doubt very much wishy, if you would be too happy if the bank where your £100k was in (albeit a hypothetical £100k at this moment in time for you) were to say - hmmmm I'm sorry but you see that £100k you thought you had banked for your retirement, well we think it should only be worth £95k now and if want to get it back up to what we promised you then work an extra 6 years, pay more into the account than you were originally to give us another £5k and then we will average out your payments you've put in to the account over the years and then just give you £98k credit! 
In short, that is basically what the present Government are wanting to do i.e. remove the figures they had promised, make workers work longer and pay more into their pension (yes public sector workers do pay money into THEIR own pension) and in the end when they do get to eventually retire they end up with less of a pension. | |||
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" That's not the employment contract that public sector workers signed up to though when they agreed to take the job they were offered with all the benefits that were promised to them at the time. " Why do some people seem to think a contact of employment is set in stone? Any employer can change the terms of your contract. They can reduce the hours, reduce your pay, change your place of work.... pretty much all of it. Guess what rights you have as an employee? 1 - Accept the new terms and shut up. 2 - Tell them you are not happy..... but you will be expected to leave your job within 3 months. And that's the advice from ACAS. | |||
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"Socialism is about equality, is it not? Well, please tell me what is equal about a percentage of the workforce getting a final salary pension paid for by the remaining percentage of the workforce who are NOT going to get that same deal." And once again in your comments, you have failed to recognise that they actually pay into their own pension too - as well as Council Tax, Income Tax, National Insurance - they aren't "sponging" of people | |||
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" That's not the employment contract that public sector workers signed up to though when they agreed to take the job they were offered with all the benefits that were promised to them at the time. Why do some people seem to think a contact of employment is set in stone? Any employer can change the terms of your contract. They can reduce the hours, reduce your pay, change your place of work.... pretty much all of it. Guess what rights you have as an employee? 1 - Accept the new terms and shut up. 2 - Tell them you are not happy..... but you will be expected to leave your job within 3 months. And that's the advice from ACAS." You didn't quite get the point of my post, but that isn't surprising The point is, they are doing something about it by striking as they are not happy at getting their pensions cut! Just the same as anyone else would be if they were expected to pay more for something and get less back in return. Kinda obvious when you stop to think about it and not just pick up on one point of a post. Nope employment contracts are not set in stone but it does P people off when a really important part of it is going to be changed, hence the strikes! | |||
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"Socialism is about equality, is it not? Well, please tell me what is equal about a percentage of the workforce getting a final salary pension paid for by the remaining percentage of the workforce who are NOT going to get that same deal. And once again in your comments, you have failed to recognise that they actually pay into their own pension too - as well as Council Tax, Income Tax, National Insurance - they aren't "sponging" of people "Who mentioned sponging? Not I. Because I don't type out every single possible aspect of this very complex subject which would make this thread very very very long indeed, it doesn't mean I don't know that public sector workers pay into their own pensions. I know they pay into their pensions, they have to or they won't have one, but that pension is added to by their employer - ie, the taxpayer, via a percentage of council tax collected. (public sector workers pay council tax too so they're actually paying into their own pension TWICE). | |||
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"Socialism is about equality, is it not? Well, please tell me what is equal about a percentage of the workforce getting a final salary pension paid for by the remaining percentage of the workforce who are NOT going to get that same deal." The others still didn't sign up to that deal though, you kinda missed the point too. I've worked in both private and now public sectors doing what I do and I chose to take a drop in salary to join the public sector believing the other benefits e.g. the pension scheme, flexi-time, etc compensated me for the drop in monthly salary. Yup - more fool me now it seems! | |||
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" You didn't quite get the point of my post, but that isn't surprising " This type of comment is becoming quite prevalent from the more right-wing points of _iew being posted. Are these continuing snipes and digs adding to this debate or detracting from it?  | |||
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" You didn't quite get the point of my post, but that isn't surprising ..... Kinda obvious when you stop to think about it and not just pick up on one point of a post. " Well my opinion is still the same. Just as you have played the put down sarcasm card too early, they too have played their hand too soon also. Had talks closed down, then may be I would feel a little more empathy. | |||
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"Socialism is about equality, is it not? Well, please tell me what is equal about a percentage of the workforce getting a final salary pension paid for by the remaining percentage of the workforce who are NOT going to get that same deal. The others still didn't sign up to that deal though, you kinda missed the point too. I've worked in both private and now public sectors doing what I do and I chose to take a drop in salary to join the public sector believing the other benefits e.g. the pension scheme, flexi-time, etc compensated me for the drop in monthly salary. Yup - more fool me now it seems! "They didn't sign up to it because they weren't offered it! That's the entire point. Trust me, as a private sector worker my whole life I have never been offered a nice final salary scheme from the public sector, and it's my fookin money they're dishing out!! And I have to work until I'm 67 for the priviledge of it, while they retire at 60. Just who is being screwed here! | |||
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" I doubt very much wishy, if you would be too happy if the bank where your £100k was in (albeit a hypothetical £100k at this moment in time for you) were to say - hmmmm I'm sorry but you see that £100k you thought you had banked for your retirement, well we think it should only be worth £95k now and if want to get it back up to what we promised you then work an extra 6 years, pay more into the account than you were originally to give us another £5k and then we will average out your payments you've put in to the account over the years and then just give you £98k credit!
In short, that is basically what the present Government are wanting to do i.e. remove the figures they had promised, make workers work longer and pay more into their pension (yes public sector workers do pay money into THEIR own pension) and in the end when they do get to eventually retire they end up with less of a pension. "EXCELLENT post bb, your example is almost precisely what NuLabour, Gordon Brwon did to private pensions from 1997 onwards. I say almost because the reduction in private pensions, from the contract i signed upto and was led to beleive i would receive, has reduced nearer to 30-35% than the 5% you quote. Are the taxpayers gonna have to pay extra taxes and council tax to me to make up my shortfall, are the heckers like. | |||
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"Socialism is about equality, is it not? Well, please tell me what is equal about a percentage of the workforce getting a final salary pension paid for by the remaining percentage of the workforce who are NOT going to get that same deal. The others still didn't sign up to that deal though, you kinda missed the point too. I've worked in both private and now public sectors doing what I do and I chose to take a drop in salary to join the public sector believing the other benefits e.g. the pension scheme, flexi-time, etc compensated me for the drop in monthly salary. Yup - more fool me now it seems!
They didn't sign up to it because they weren't offered it! That's the entire point. Trust me, as a private sector worker my whole life I have never been offered a nice final salary scheme from the public sector, and it's my fookin money they're dishing out!! And I have to work until I'm 67 for the priviledge of it, while they retire at 60.
Just who is being screwed here!"Life's just not fair! I would like to believe that you feel that moralistic about it that you would refuse such a pension now if offered one? | |||
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"The Government says public opinion is against the strikes and the unions state the opposite. Taking Fab as a cross section of the general population, are you for or against them? Stiking is not something anyone does lightly ,its a last resort when all other options r exhausted and left with no other action to take ! Why should public sector employees be expected to work longer ,,,pay more and get less of a pension than they have been promised for the vast majority of their working life just because the bankers have balls up the finance of this country !!!!!!!! while the politicans sit there on their gold plated pensions preaching to us all !!!!!!!!!!!! "fully agree and as ive worked for 18 years in the public sector i feel its going to get know better not with the tories in three years time and they get another term its schools and the nhs next mark my word and a lot more job cuts and ive seen it all before | |||
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"Socialism is about equality, is it not? Well, please tell me what is equal about a percentage of the workforce getting a final salary pension paid for by the remaining percentage of the workforce who are NOT going to get that same deal. And once again in your comments, you have failed to recognise that they actually pay into their own pension too - as well as Council Tax, Income Tax, National Insurance - they aren't "sponging" of people
Who mentioned sponging? Not I.
Because I don't type out every single possible aspect of this very complex subject which would make this thread very very very long indeed, it doesn't mean I don't know that public sector workers pay into their own pensions. I know they pay into their pensions, they have to or they won't have one, but that pension is added to by their employer - ie, the taxpayer, via a percentage of council tax collected.
(public sector workers pay council tax too so they're actually paying into their own pension TWICE).
"You mention now and have mentioned in the past that public sector pensions are added to by the council tax that people pay, it's a great way of a politician to get the private sector on their side as they (the general public) see it as public sector workers are taking money away from other local services and stashing it away for their pensions. It's utter bollocks to be honest!
If you knew the real figures of what the council tax collected can actually pay for in respect to local services (it's not stashed into pension schemes as you say) you'd be surprised to say the least. The majority of money used to run Local Authorities come's from Central Government from all the other taxes, etc that public sector workers also pay into. | |||
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"Socialism is about equality, is it not? Well, please tell me what is equal about a percentage of the workforce getting a final salary pension paid for by the remaining percentage of the workforce who are NOT going to get that same deal. The others still didn't sign up to that deal though, you kinda missed the point too. I've worked in both private and now public sectors doing what I do and I chose to take a drop in salary to join the public sector believing the other benefits e.g. the pension scheme, flexi-time, etc compensated me for the drop in monthly salary. Yup - more fool me now it seems!
They didn't sign up to it because they weren't offered it! That's the entire point. Trust me, as a private sector worker my whole life I have never been offered a nice final salary scheme from the public sector, and it's my fookin money they're dishing out!! And I have to work until I'm 67 for the priviledge of it, while they retire at 60.
Just who is being screwed here!"Wishy - It isn't just your money, it's my money, it's Joe Bloggs's money, it's every public sector worker's money, it's ........ etc etc You speak as if you personally are paying into the public sector pension scheme for everyone. Every taxpayer pays into the "central pot" and that includes public sector workers - It isn't just you! | |||
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"Wishy - It isn't just your money, it's my money, it's Joe Bloggs's money, it's every public sector worker's money, it's ........ etc etc You speak as if you personally are paying into the public sector pension scheme for everyone. Every taxpayer pays into the "central pot" and that includes public sector workers - It isn't just you! "Ah right, thanks for correcting me on that. Tell me, when do I get my bit back then? If it belongs to 'all of us' as you say. Where's mine? | |||
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" You mention now and have mentioned in the past that public sector pensions are added to by the council tax that people pay, it's a great way of a politician to get the private sector on their side as they (the general public) see it as public sector workers are taking money away from other local services and stashing it away for their pensions. It's utter bollocks to be honest!
If you knew the real figures of what the council tax collected can actually pay for in respect to local services (it's not stashed into pension schemes as you say) you'd be surprised to say the least. The majority of money used to run Local Authorities come's from Central Government from all the other taxes, etc that public sector workers also pay into. "Totally wrong bb. Your maths does not add up. I understood Local Government Pension Schemes to be fully funded. From Council Tax. My Councils tax take this year is frozen. It has cut front line posts, always the libraries and actual public services. Yet the money collected and put aside for pensions this year has NOT reduced from last year, in all probability it has risen. So total tax take frozen. Pensions up, services down. The proportion of Council Tax given over to pensions is increasing. | |||
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"Socialism is about equality, is it not? Well, please tell me what is equal about a percentage of the workforce getting a final salary pension paid for by the remaining percentage of the workforce who are NOT going to get that same deal. The others still didn't sign up to that deal though, you kinda missed the point too. I've worked in both private and now public sectors doing what I do and I chose to take a drop in salary to join the public sector believing the other benefits e.g. the pension scheme, flexi-time, etc compensated me for the drop in monthly salary. Yup - more fool me now it seems!
They didn't sign up to it because they weren't offered it! That's the entire point. Trust me, as a private sector worker my whole life I have never been offered a nice final salary scheme from the public sector, and it's my fookin money they're dishing out!! And I have to work until I'm 67 for the priviledge of it, while they retire at 60.
Just who is being screwed here!"well actually its the tax payer if private pensions fall short. i want to know what the government are going to do to stop companies providing inadequate pensions in the private sector and leaving the taxpayer to pick up the bill for any future shortfalls. Instead of dashing to see who can get to the bottom first ,isnt it logical to bring the average pension up to something decent so people can retire into a well earned comfortable finish,this private vs public arguament is bollox .the point is we all deserve a decent pension if we have earnt it. | |||
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"Life's just not fair! I would like to believe that you feel that moralistic about it that you would refuse such a pension now if offered one?" If offered, I will, when everyone else does. Everything being equal like. | |||
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"I doubt we'll never see a Labour supporter ever admit to Brown's raids on the private sector pension funds as unjustifiable, although I'd be delighted to be proven wrong on that. I really wouldn't be at all surprised if the cash stolen in those raids was pumped straight into public sector pension coffers. " Just for the record, and as stated loads of times on my previous posts on "political threads" I support no party and never will. Every politician is out for themselves no matter what party they are with and they are all as bad as each other. Hope that clears up that I am not a Labour supporter! | |||
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"i want to know what the government are going to do to stop companies providing inadequate pensions in the private sector and leaving the taxpayer to pick up the bill for any future shortfalls." Sun Life pension ripoff: government assistance: next to nothing (I'm directly related to someone who has retired and has fuck all after paying into a pension with Scum Life for 30 years), but hey, that's how the private sector's cookie crumbles eh? | |||
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"there hoping every 1 drops down dead before they get to there pensionable age .but in the mean time the thousands of chief executives that are being made redundant / taking early retirement are creaming off everyones hopeful pension . its the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer . wake up and smell the coffee instead of the private sector attacking the publice sector and vice versa . there is a method in the madness "The salaries, and perks, at the top end of the public sector have rocketed in recent years. These are still public workers ripping off everyone. The pensions are often final salary pension schemes, index linked. GP's public workers, freely admit they screwed the Government ( NuLabour ) for ridiculous increases. Where did Labour get the money from? Debt , plain and simple. Maybe from the banks but that's what they do, they lend. If i lend any of you £100 and you go spend £5,000 am i responsible for your subsequent problems? | |||
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" You mention now and have mentioned in the past that public sector pensions are added to by the council tax that people pay, it's a great way of a politician to get the private sector on their side as they (the general public) see it as public sector workers are taking money away from other local services and stashing it away for their pensions. It's utter bollocks to be honest!
If you knew the real figures of what the council tax collected can actually pay for in respect to local services (it's not stashed into pension schemes as you say) you'd be surprised to say the least. The majority of money used to run Local Authorities come's from Central Government from all the other taxes, etc that public sector workers also pay into.
Totally wrong bb. Your maths does not add up.
I understood Local Government Pension Schemes to be fully funded. From Council Tax.
My Councils tax take this year is frozen. It has cut front line posts, always the libraries and actual public services. Yet the money collected and put aside for pensions this year has NOT reduced from last year, in all probability it has risen.
So total tax take frozen. Pensions up, services down.
The proportion of Council Tax given over to pensions is increasing.
"Sorry but I've attended quite a few council budget meetings in my time and know where the collected council tax goes and it doesn't cover very much either. I never post on political threads unless I am sure of my facts and I am on this one too | |||
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" If i lend any of you £100 and you go spend £5,000 am i responsible for your subsequent problems? " Totally seconded | |||
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"gives up lol" Room for one more on the giving up step? | |||
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"I doubt we'll never see a Labour supporter ever admit to Brown's raids on the private sector pension funds as unjustifiable, although I'd be delighted to be proven wrong on that. I really wouldn't be at all surprised if the cash stolen in those raids was pumped straight into public sector pension coffers. Just for the record, and as stated loads of times on my previous posts on "political threads" I support no party and never will. Every politician is out for themselves no matter what party they are with and they are all as bad as each other. Hope that clears up that I am not a Labour supporter! "tbh until i get the promised referendum over europe they can all fuck off. they are all undemocratic wankers who are selling the rights of the people to self determination down the river. just my tuppence worth of course | |||
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"I doubt we'll never see a Labour supporter ever admit to Brown's raids on the private sector pension funds as unjustifiable, although I'd be delighted to be proven wrong on that. I really wouldn't be at all surprised if the cash stolen in those raids was pumped straight into public sector pension coffers. Just for the record, and as stated loads of times on my previous posts on "political threads" I support no party and never will. Every politician is out for themselves no matter what party they are with and they are all as bad as each other. Hope that clears up that I am not a Labour supporter!
tbh until i get the promised referendum over europe they can all fuck off.
they are all undemocratic wankers who are selling the rights of the people to self determination down the river.
just my tuppence worth of course
"Right, no more Black Forest Gateau for you for a while...;-) | |||
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" well actually its the tax payer if private pensions fall short. i want to know what the government are going to do to stop companies providing inadequate pensions in the private sector and leaving the taxpayer to pick up the bill for any future shortfalls. Instead of dashing to see who can get to the bottom first ,isnt it logical to bring the average pension up to something decent so people can retire into a well earned comfortable finish,this private vs public arguament is bollox .the point is we all deserve a decent pension if we have earnt it. " PD, it's a very competitive, small , globalised world, one the UK crowed about whilst we were gettting the benefit. Companies cannot afford the required levels of pension payments, that's why many go bust. Many can't afford their rent payments, invariably to Pension Fund holders. Companies will lawfully minimise tax, hell even U2 do it, or go abroad for lower tax regimes. This utopia of good pensions for all ain't ever gonna happen. Yet the public workers want to keep their share. OK, not technically "gold plated" but guaranteed sums, inflation proofed ( even if to the lower index ), boosted by some 13-20% from ALL taxpayers, is as it's gonna get to gold plated. | |||
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" If i lend any of you £100 and you go spend £5,000 am i responsible for your subsequent problems? Totally seconded" Don't be silly , you couldn't even buy the left shoe for £100 | |||
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" If i lend any of you £100 and you go spend £5,000 am i responsible for your subsequent problems? Totally seconded Don't be silly , you couldn't even buy the left shoe for £100 "I got this bargain of a pension.... buy one get one free...;-) | |||
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"i want to know what the government are going to do to stop companies providing inadequate pensions in the private sector and leaving the taxpayer to pick up the bill for any future shortfalls. Sun Life pension ripoff: government assistance: next to nothing (I'm directly related to someone who has retired and has fuck all after paying into a pension with Scum Life for 30 years), but hey, that's how the private sector's cookie crumbles eh?" well doesnt it seem a bit non tactical to attack the public sector ,should nt the private sector be saying to the govt fuck you we want the same pension that you as an employer pay to your employees and we want legislation to force private companies to do it ,they can afford it since the corporation tax was slashed,the have upped the pay and conditions for most of the boards since ...i cant believe as a people we are allowing a government to spin us into worse conditions instead of fighting for the poor fuckers who have piss poor pensions to be made better,talk about shooting yourself in the foot | |||
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"I doubt we'll never see a Labour supporter ever admit to Brown's raids on the private sector pension funds as unjustifiable, although I'd be delighted to be proven wrong on that. I really wouldn't be at all surprised if the cash stolen in those raids was pumped straight into public sector pension coffers. " wasn't it the conservative's who changed the the regulations.allowing companies to raid their own pension funds. these raids depleted pension funds,to a much greater degree.than any raids brown made on them. | |||
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" A different thought : Who wants £100 for a good shag. No debt, cash flows, multiplier effect ( especially when i get a good veri ) GDP goes up. We're all winners. "A truly indecent proposal!! | |||
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" A different thought : Who wants £100 for a good shag. " Cash? | |||
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" A different thought : Who wants £100 for a good shag. Cash?" Government Gilts, payable 2064 | |||
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"i want to know what the government are going to do to stop companies providing inadequate pensions in the private sector and leaving the taxpayer to pick up the bill for any future shortfalls. Sun Life pension ripoff: government assistance: next to nothing (I'm directly related to someone who has retired and has fuck all after paying into a pension with Scum Life for 30 years), but hey, that's how the private sector's cookie crumbles eh? well doesnt it seem a bit non tactical to attack the public sector ,should nt the private sector be saying to the govt fuck you we want the same pension that you as an employer pay to your employees and we want legislation to force private companies to do it ,they can afford it since the corporation tax was slashed,the have upped the pay and conditions for most of the boards since ...i cant believe as a people we are allowing a government to spin us into worse conditions instead of fighting for the poor fuckers who have piss poor pensions to be made better,talk about shooting yourself in the foot " You would not believe the amount of lobbying and paperwork that the Equitable Life saga has generated. (apologies to Sun Life of Canada - oops) Labour didn't want to know, at all, they completely washed their hands of it because there was no political mileage in helping those poor sods who paid into a pension and now have fuck all for it. Clegg said that if the Libs won the election that those Equitable Life policy holders would be reimbursed in full. IN FULL. Ah, but we didn't win, Clegg says, we only half won, or a bit won, so that deal doesn't stand anymore. (a deal has been reached actually, but it's still going to be a few years before payments start, but it's way way short of what these pensioners should be getting and if any of them die in the meantime their claim dies with them and their family do not get what the policy holder should have got). When the govt helps out private sector pensioners who have suffered like those Equitable Lifers then maybe I'll have some empathy with the public sector. | |||
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"For. It's about time we got off our 'polite' arses and made a bit of noise like our European cousins do. " The reason we haven't previously done so is because of a relatively comfortable lifestyle which we can't afford to lose? Not sure how long that's gonna hold true. When the shit hits the fan, it may make the poll tax riots look like a kids party. | |||
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"The Government says public opinion is against the strikes and the unions state the opposite. Taking Fab as a cross section of the general population, are you for or against them?" Trainee Doctors pay £23,533 Trainee Teachers pay £21,588 Trainee Firefighter pay £21,157 Trainee Coppers pay £21,534 Trainee Paramedics pay £21,176 New Entrant Soldiers get £13,895 to walk around with 30kg of old kit in 50'C heat with a good chance of becoming a double or even a triple amputee or killed! and NO | |||
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" Companies cannot afford the required levels of pension payments, that's why many go bust. Many can't afford their rent payments, invariably to Pension Fund holders. Companies will lawfully minimise tax, hell even U2 do it, or go abroad for lower tax regimes. This utopia of good pensions for all ain't ever gonna happen. Yet the public workers want to keep their share. OK, not technically "gold plated" but guaranteed sums, inflation proofed ( even if to the lower index ), boosted by some 13-20% from ALL taxpayers, is as it's gonna get to gold plated." In Hull, we have two bus operators, one of which closed its Pension scheme to newcomers from about a year ago, because, the costs were growing too much. There's still a gap in the pensions payout, which the company has pledged to fill, but as their Chairman has stated, it isn't a bottomless pit of money; they had to draw a line somewhere! It has got to a stage when pensions can't be guaranteed, just as jobs for life are no longer viable. Whilst I'm in a Union, I'm against the strikes. My local Office had continually sent me emails asking me to support the strikers. But when I indicated that had all other means of dialogue failed, meaning that strike action was the only available option left, their response became very much a political one, out to "bash the Tories" I did ask if they would have taken the same action if it had been Labour still in charge and taking the same stance, especially considering that it was Labour over recent years got us into this financial quagmire? Their reply? I'm still waiting! Whilst I have some sympathy for the teachers, etc., they still have work, especially in these uncertain times, employment wise! | |||
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" Lastly, to those who deny that council tax pays for public sector pensions, I quote the following from Communities Secretary, Eric Pickles, "town hall pensions are now costing over £300 a year to every household paying council tax." Is he lying? ~ " Wishy - You know exactly what he and your good self are doing i.e. being a wee bit loose with the facts and using figures to try and get the "general public" on their side.
As I stated earlier the council tax isn't just collected and stashed away in pension funds but it is easy for a politician to state that it is; whereas, in fact, all they are doing is looking at costs of providing the pensions they promised to public sector workers and then say oh let's tell the gullible that the money comes direct from the council tax they pay every month whereas in reality it comes out of the "central pot" of money collected by all taxes that everyone pays.
Simirarly it does make good headlines for them (and some more votes too, of course) if they also tell people that the cash that should have been spent to keep a local libraries, swimming pools, schools, etc open is being spent on treating drug addicts!
We both know the truth and shouldn't really be taken in by "political vote seeking lies" but it looks like some folk maybe are.
The old saying - "There are three kinds of lies; lies, damned lies, and statistics" - is quite appropriate for this and most other political threads on here. | |||
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"Current local govmnt worker and totally against the strikes, not only will they not achieve anything, i don't personally see that there's anything to be achieved anyway... I'm happy for my pension to be in line with the rest of the UK workforce, i certainly don't expect or deserve better pay or conditions than if I was in the public sector and don't see why we should be fighting to keep them. Because it's always been that way is not a great excuse and I know as an organisation we do nothing to justify them. I came into my post because it was in line with my education and background, not for the 'perks', and would happily give them up if the same job was available in the private sector. And i'm not striking today as i'm not in the Union - primarily as i don't agree with them funding the Labour party. " You're a spectacularly ill informed local government worker then. Local government workers have two choices when they join UNISON - they can sign up for the APF, which contributes to the Labour Party, or the GPF which does not contribute to any political party. So you actually have a choice. | |||
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"Well i am going to have to work till 66 so i don't see why i should pay for some other sod to retire at 60. Its a bit rich if you ask me. Here here ! " Confused.com here. Who do you think is retiring at 60 and claiming their pension (the pension they have contributed towards just like anyone in a pension scheme) ? | |||
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" Companies cannot afford the required levels of pension payments, that's why many go bust. Many can't afford their rent payments, invariably to Pension Fund holders. Companies will lawfully minimise tax, hell even U2 do it, or go abroad for lower tax regimes. This utopia of good pensions for all ain't ever gonna happen. Yet the public workers want to keep their share. OK, not technically "gold plated" but guaranteed sums, inflation proofed ( even if to the lower index ), boosted by some 13-20% from ALL taxpayers, is as it's gonna get to gold plated. In Hull, we have two bus operators, one of which closed its Pension scheme to newcomers from about a year ago, because, the costs were growing too much. There's still a gap in the pensions payout, which the company has pledged to fill, but as their Chairman has stated, it isn't a bottomless pit of money; they had to draw a line somewhere! It has got to a stage when pensions can't be guaranteed, just as jobs for life are no longer viable. Whilst I'm in a Union, I'm against the strikes. My local Office had continually sent me emails asking me to support the strikers. But when I indicated that had all other means of dialogue failed, meaning that strike action was the only available option left, their response became very much a political one, out to "bash the Tories" I did ask if they would have taken the same action if it had been Labour still in charge and taking the same stance, especially considering that it was Labour over recent years got us into this financial quagmire? Their reply? I'm still waiting! Whilst I have some sympathy for the teachers, etc., they still have work, especially in these uncertain times, employment wise!" two weeks ago Danny Alexander, Treasury Secretary, announced the governemnt's decision on what it would do about public sector pensions. So yes, negotiations have failed, and the government is not negotiating in good faith. Or Danny Alexander must be sacked. Simple as... | |||
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" You mention now and have mentioned in the past that public sector pensions are added to by the council tax that people pay, it's a great way of a politician to get the private sector on their side as they (the general public) see it as public sector workers are taking money away from other local services and stashing it away for their pensions. It's utter bollocks to be honest!
If you knew the real figures of what the council tax collected can actually pay for in respect to local services (it's not stashed into pension schemes as you say) you'd be surprised to say the least. The majority of money used to run Local Authorities come's from Central Government from all the other taxes, etc that public sector workers also pay into.
Totally wrong bb. Your maths does not add up.
I understood Local Government Pension Schemes to be fully funded. From Council Tax.
My Councils tax take this year is frozen. It has cut front line posts, always the libraries and actual public services. Yet the money collected and put aside for pensions this year has NOT reduced from last year, in all probability it has risen.
So total tax take frozen. Pensions up, services down.
The proportion of Council Tax given over to pensions is increasing.
"You're talking rubbish. LGPS contributions are paid for out of the council's general fund, except in the case of housing workers who are paid for out of the HRA, in which case their pension contributions are paid for out of the HRA, and the growing number of LGPS members who are not local government employees but whose employers sign up to the LGPS (which includes significant numbers of staff TUPE'd to the third sector or the private sector). Anyway, the money in the general fund comes out of five sources; council tax, formula grant, specific or ring fenced grants, retained DSG and trading activities and charges. In some cases council tax can make up as little as 25% of a council's income. So any calculation of how much of your council tax goes on pensions is a guess at best, or worse still a lie. For instance, let's say we calculate that pensions cost X, and divide by the number of households. That ignores the fact that of the 50 - 75% of council income that comes from non council tax, some of it will be business rates redistributed, but the bulk of it will come from the government's general account, which includes companies taxation, VAT, excise duties and a whole lot more. To say that you can identify how much each household contributes out of that is lying on a grand scale. | |||
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"ooppss I forgot to add my sources for the above info Sources:- My own common sense along with my life/work experience and no internet searches were used in preparing the above! "~ From Nottinghamshire County Council: (googled it dontcha know, but it's indicative of all county councils) Council Tax is collected by District Councils. Your District Council: •sends out your Council Tax bill •works out if you are entitled to any discounts or benefits •collects your Council Tax, either through Direct Debits, paying in person, telephone payments – there are lots of ways to pay. •offers advice if you are having trouble paying your Council Tax Once the money has been collected, your District Council keeps its share of the money, and distributes the rest to: •Nottinghamshire County Council •Nottinghamshire Police Authority •Nottinghamshire Fire and Rescue Service •your Parish or Town Council (if you have one) ~ (psst, they're probably lying eh?) Your 'sources' cannot be quantified and your say so offers no proof, I could make any number of loose claims about my experience and quote that as an undeniable concrete source. The BBC News website is one I use extensively and the information regarding pension deficits was something I knew to be on that site having read it previously. No google needed there, BBC has it's own search function you know, which was the method I used to find the other report. If you'd read my post in any great detail at all you'd have seen that I was not being pro-Tory and anti-Labour as the reports I quoted from made it clear that neither party was guilty of pension-raiding whilst in office in '73 and '97, but the measures they took to try and close the tax loopholes they'd found could be misconstrued as tax raids. You chose to concentrate on the last paragraph though and insinuate that Eric Pickles is a liar. So here's a little bit of info about the man: Eric Pickles is widely respected across all parties as a man of integrity and honour and one of only a few MPs to emerge from the expenses scandal completely untarnished. At his own insistence he visited his constituency gazette with details of all his expenses and invited them to scrutinise and print them, and they are also openly available on his website, along with his declaration of interests. He has extensive knowledge of local council affairs so I'd trust his declaration of where council tax monies go over yours any day of the week. But you'll probably put all that down to lies and misinformation too, won't you. | |||
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" Companies cannot afford the required levels of pension payments, that's why many go bust. Many can't afford their rent payments, invariably to Pension Fund holders. Companies will lawfully minimise tax, hell even U2 do it, or go abroad for lower tax regimes. This utopia of good pensions for all ain't ever gonna happen. Yet the public workers want to keep their share. OK, not technically "gold plated" but guaranteed sums, inflation proofed ( even if to the lower index ), boosted by some 13-20% from ALL taxpayers, is as it's gonna get to gold plated. In Hull, we have two bus operators, one of which closed its Pension scheme to newcomers from about a year ago, because, the costs were growing too much. There's still a gap in the pensions payout, which the company has pledged to fill, but as their Chairman has stated, it isn't a bottomless pit of money; they had to draw a line somewhere! It has got to a stage when pensions can't be guaranteed, just as jobs for life are no longer viable. Whilst I'm in a Union, I'm against the strikes. My local Office had continually sent me emails asking me to support the strikers. But when I indicated that had all other means of dialogue failed, meaning that strike action was the only available option left, their response became very much a political one, out to "bash the Tories" I did ask if they would have taken the same action if it had been Labour still in charge and taking the same stance, especially considering that it was Labour over recent years got us into this financial quagmire? Their reply? I'm still waiting! Whilst I have some sympathy for the teachers, etc., they still have work, especially in these uncertain times, employment wise! two weeks ago Danny Alexander, Treasury Secretary, announced the governemnt's decision on what it would do about public sector pensions. So yes, negotiations have failed, and the government is not negotiating in good faith. Or Danny Alexander must be sacked. Simple as..." So, why has it been over the past 2 weeks, and even during PM's Questions on Wednesday, that the Government line was that talks with the Unions were still ongoing? And, on our local BBC TV news programme earlier this week, the presenter pushed the regional NUT boss about the same point; the Union guy had to admit they were taking strike action, even though that negotiations are STILL continuing! | |||
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"ooppss I forgot to add my sources for the above info Sources:- My own common sense along with my life/work experience and no internet searches were used in preparing the above!
~
From Nottinghamshire County Council:
(googled it dontcha know, but it's indicative of all county councils)
Council Tax is collected by District Councils.
Your District Council:
•sends out your Council Tax bill
•works out if you are entitled to any discounts or benefits
•collects your Council Tax, either through Direct Debits, paying in person, telephone payments – there are lots of ways to pay.
•offers advice if you are having trouble paying your Council Tax
Once the money has been collected, your District Council keeps its share of the money, and distributes the rest to:
•Nottinghamshire County Council
•Nottinghamshire Police Authority
•Nottinghamshire Fire and Rescue Service
•your Parish or Town Council (if you have one)
~ (psst, they're probably lying eh?)
Your 'sources' cannot be quantified and your say so offers no proof, I could make any number of loose claims about my experience and quote that as an undeniable concrete source.
The BBC News website is one I use extensively and the information regarding pension deficits was something I knew to be on that site having read it previously. No google needed there, BBC has it's own search function you know, which was the method I used to find the other report.
If you'd read my post in any great detail at all you'd have seen that I was not being pro-Tory and anti-Labour as the reports I quoted from made it clear that neither party was guilty of pension-raiding whilst in office in '73 and '97, but the measures they took to try and close the tax loopholes they'd found could be misconstrued as tax raids.
You chose to concentrate on the last paragraph though and insinuate that Eric Pickles is a liar. So here's a little bit of info about the man:
Eric Pickles is widely respected across all parties as a man of integrity and honour and one of only a few MPs to emerge from the expenses scandal completely untarnished. At his own insistence he visited his constituency gazette with details of all his expenses and invited them to scrutinise and print them, and they are also openly available on his website, along with his declaration of interests. He has extensive knowledge of local council affairs so I'd trust his declaration of where council tax monies go over yours any day of the week.
But you'll probably put all that down to lies and misinformation too, won't you."Ermmmmmm Wishy - I know who collects the "Council Tax" (the clue is in the name pmsl) you were saying where the Council Tax goes i.e. straight into pension funds and that is what I was saying you were wrong on and your post now says what it gets used for with no mention of pension funds, so I'm a little confused here by your reply!
I won't embarrass you by once again saying the majority of the money to run Local Authorities comes out of the "central pot" and only a very small percentage of the required yearly budget is the cash collected from the Council Tax, ooppss I just did say it again
You can google all you want to and yes it will always say the Council Tax is collected by the Local Council I didn't think that was even an arguement within this thread; what your googling won't say is that the collected Council Tax is just stashed away in pension funds.
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"Hmmmm... Wonder where the government gets the money in the "Central Pot"??? "It get's thrown in by shoppers leaving Tesco when the PM dresses up as Santa at Christmas. | |||
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"Hmmmm... Wonder where the government gets the money in the "Central Pot"??? "From all the other taxes they collect from us all including VAT on the things we all buy, income tax, etc, etc It's kinda obvious when you stop to think about it | |||
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" you were saying where the Council Tax goes i.e. straight into pension funds " Incorrect. I said that Eric Pickles said that £300 of every council tax bill goes directly into local government pension funds, and as he has had a darned sight more experience than you in local government affairs I choose to believe him over you. I fully support this government's programme of cuts and I believe George Osbourne is doing a bloody marvellous job under extremely difficult circumstances, and once his policies start bearing dividends any chance of a Labour resurgence will be consigned to the political wilderness for a good long while, I hope. And we'll have a fairer pension system to boot. ps. The % of council funding provided by council tax revenues is BETWEEN 25% - 50% from council to council, but hey, you can omit certain data if it supports your argument the same as I do, eh? | |||
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"i want to know what the government are going to do to stop companies providing inadequate pensions in the private sector and leaving the taxpayer to pick up the bill for any future shortfalls. Sun Life pension ripoff: government assistance: next to nothing (I'm directly related to someone who has retired and has fuck all after paying into a pension with Scum Life for 30 years), but hey, that's how the private sector's cookie crumbles eh? well doesnt it seem a bit non tactical to attack the public sector ,should nt the private sector be saying to the govt fuck you we want the same pension that you as an employer pay to your employees and we want legislation to force private companies to do it ,they can afford it since the corporation tax was slashed,the have upped the pay and conditions for most of the boards since ...i cant believe as a people we are allowing a government to spin us into worse conditions instead of fighting for the poor fuckers who have piss poor pensions to be made better,talk about shooting yourself in the foot You would not believe the amount of lobbying and paperwork that the Equitable Life saga has generated. (apologies to Sun Life of Canada - oops) Labour didn't want to know, at all, they completely washed their hands of it because there was no political mileage in helping those poor sods who paid into a pension and now have fuck all for it. Clegg said that if the Libs won the election that those Equitable Life policy holders would be reimbursed in full. IN FULL. Ah, but we didn't win, Clegg says, we only half won, or a bit won, so that deal doesn't stand anymore. (a deal has been reached actually, but it's still going to be a few years before payments start, but it's way way short of what these pensioners should be getting and if any of them die in the meantime their claim dies with them and their family do not get what the policy holder should have got). When the govt helps out private sector pensioners who have suffered like those Equitable Lifers then maybe I'll have some empathy with the public sector." wishy then your battle over pensions is with the govt not the public service workers, Why as a nation do we want to destroy the public service pensions insted of lifting the private sector pensions to match,where is the logic in that. What they are trying to do is spin 75% of the working population against the other 25% in some jealous frenzy of "i cant have so you cant either" instead of hey this is unfair why are the private sector getting an easy ride over pensions. Any one of you people in the private sector could of become a teacher or public worker if you wanted to,they are using the fact you didnt and have suffered at the hands of successive governments against all workers. They must be laffing there asses of at us and rightly so !! | |||
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"Hmmmm... Wonder where the government gets the money in the "Central Pot"??? "Sort of makes a mockery of devolved power from central government doesn't it? I think BB likes to project an air of authority on the subject but he never qualifies his posts with source references, (saying "My own common sense along with my life/work experience" just doesn't cut it as a reliable source of information that can be cross examined and checked for accuracy. I have visions of Ed Millitant saying, "Go on, please give me a go, I promise I'll be good at it.") | |||
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" wishy then your battle over pensions is with the govt not the public service workers, Why as a nation do we want to destroy the public service pensions insted of lifting the private sector pensions to match,where is the logic in that." Not my battle, a relative is going through this as I said in my inital post. And it's not about destroying public pensions in a bottom up exercise, it's about making the system fairer to all. I'm sure the govt would love to give everyone a lovely little nest egg to retire with when they hit 50 but Greece is living proof that that would be monumentally naive to believe it sustainable. " Any one of you people in the private sector could of become a teacher or public worker if you wanted to,they are using the fact you didnt and have suffered at the hands of successive governments against all workers. " Not everyone can become a teacher as not everyone is blessed with enough intelligence to get the qualifications required to do so, and of those that are bright enough some of them don't have the temperament to deal with dozens of angst-filled hormonal teenagers on daily basis. C'mon PD, you're much better at debating than this. | |||
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"And not lets forget all the loans the government have and need to pay back, hmmmm I wonder if that is what they mean when they say The National Debt? hmmmm "For someone who claims to have extensive experience/knowledge of local politics you certainly don't seem to be displaying it. National politics are a world away from the local stuff, and accordingly, matters of national finance are deliberately kept away from the intense confusion of local council chambers. I've seen the egos at work in town halls and I've stood for election myself (a long long time ago), and local politics is subject to the whims of your local party leader, cross him/her and you're out, without a hint of due democratic process at all. | |||
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"i want to know what the government are going to do to stop companies providing inadequate pensions in the private sector and leaving the taxpayer to pick up the bill for any future shortfalls. Sun Life pension ripoff: government assistance: next to nothing (I'm directly related to someone who has retired and has fuck all after paying into a pension with Scum Life for 30 years), but hey, that's how the private sector's cookie crumbles eh? well doesnt it seem a bit non tactical to attack the public sector ,should nt the private sector be saying to the govt fuck you we want the same pension that you as an employer pay to your employees and we want legislation to force private companies to do it ,they can afford it since the corporation tax was slashed,the have upped the pay and conditions for most of the boards since ...i cant believe as a people we are allowing a government to spin us into worse conditions instead of fighting for the poor fuckers who have piss poor pensions to be made better,talk about shooting yourself in the foot You would not believe the amount of lobbying and paperwork that the Equitable Life saga has generated. (apologies to Sun Life of Canada - oops) Labour didn't want to know, at all, they completely washed their hands of it because there was no political mileage in helping those poor sods who paid into a pension and now have fuck all for it. Clegg said that if the Libs won the election that those Equitable Life policy holders would be reimbursed in full. IN FULL. Ah, but we didn't win, Clegg says, we only half won, or a bit won, so that deal doesn't stand anymore. (a deal has been reached actually, but it's still going to be a few years before payments start, but it's way way short of what these pensioners should be getting and if any of them die in the meantime their claim dies with them and their family do not get what the policy holder should have got). When the govt helps out private sector pensioners who have suffered like those Equitable Lifers then maybe I'll have some empathy with the public sector. wishy then your battle over pensions is with the govt not the public service workers, Why as a nation do we want to destroy the public service pensions insted of lifting the private sector pensions to match,where is the logic in that. What they are trying to do is spin 75% of the working population against the other 25% in some jealous frenzy of "i cant have so you cant either" instead of hey this is unfair why are the private sector getting an easy ride over pensions. Any one of you people in the private sector could of become a teacher or public worker if you wanted to,they are using the fact you didnt and have suffered at the hands of successive governments against all workers. They must be laffing there asses of at us and rightly so !!" Couldn't agree more, and you didn't need google to come up with that either! | |||
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"has a BCC worker from what people have siad to me they all agree with the strike and when you tell then you have not had a pay riese in 2 years they say it is a descrace." Try working for a private sector company where all the employees doing the same job are on different pay deals and requests for pay rises are routinely scoffed at with loud guffaws before the director sods off down the pub for a three hour lunch quaffing caviar and champagne - yet the company cannot afford a pay rise for it's workforce. Index-linked, to a private sector company, means that your name is on two registers: the 'when you started register', and the 'has he fucked up register.' The first register lets them keep an eye on potential redundancy payments and when best to start looking at the second register so you can be got rid off before redundancy entitlements get too high. | |||
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"lets all do our best to fuk camerons coverment, blair and brown were no good either ,but if we think for one moment this lot is going to sort this out think again, this man is a old school tory who thinks the rich should get richer and we should tug our hairlock and begen your pardon sir and put up with poore work conditions and pay ,this is the start of a downwords spiaral for working class" And in your educated opinion just who IS going to sort out this mess? The ones who created it? Therein lies the paradox, if those that created the mess have the ability to sort it out then why create it in the first place. | |||
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" wishy then your battle over pensions is with the govt not the public service workers, Why as a nation do we want to destroy the public service pensions insted of lifting the private sector pensions to match,where is the logic in that. " Where would the money come from to 'lift private sector pensions'... the National Lottery ? Where is the logic in your alternative suggestion.... asking for something the country can't afford to do? " What they are trying to do is spin 75% of the working population against the other 25% in some jealous frenzy of "i cant have so you cant either" " You don't give much credit to 75% of the working population do you? Do we all have to be in a jealous frenzy? Or is it possible some of us may think "hey you had a good run and good on ya, but times are hard right now and things change". If the country wasn't in the situation it is and there was no need to spend less money, I wouldn't be demanding public sector pension must be re_iewed because they get a better deal.... that would be a jealous frenzy. " Any one of you people in the private sector could of become a teacher or public worker if you wanted to,they are using the fact you didnt and have suffered at the hands of successive governments against all workers. " I don't feel like I have suffered. Things have changed, some changes easier to swallow than others... but I don't feel I have suffered even though my pension changed years ago, my contract has been changed a number of times. I can accept nothing stays the same. I accept when you have a good deal you are fortunate and should be thankful for it... but it's not a god given right. | |||
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" wishy then your battle over pensions is with the govt not the public service workers, Why as a nation do we want to destroy the public service pensions insted of lifting the private sector pensions to match,where is the logic in that. Not my battle, a relative is going through this as I said in my inital post. And it's not about destroying public pensions in a bottom up exercise, it's about making the system fairer to all. I'm sure the govt would love to give everyone a lovely little nest egg to retire with when they hit 50 but Greece is living proof that that would be monumentally naive to believe it sustainable. Any one of you people in the private sector could of become a teacher or public worker if you wanted to,they are using the fact you didnt and have suffered at the hands of successive governments against all workers. Not everyone can become a teacher as not everyone is blessed with enough intelligence to get the qualifications required to do so, and of those that are bright enough some of them don't have the temperament to deal with dozens of angst-filled hormonal teenagers on daily basis. C'mon PD, you're much better at debating than this." yes i am wishy ,i wish you were showing your usual wriggle power to get off the hook
earlier you stated and i quote ..."When the govt helps out private sector pensioners who have suffered like those Equitable Lifers then maybe I'll have some empathy with the public sector."
meaning to me that your attack against public sector pensions is based more on your experience of one member who suffered at the hands of a private pension fund.......i totally agree that is a wrong that is cross political and needs putting right...
but i dont understand and maybe you can help me..if you would feel empathy if that condition is met,why cant you feel it anyway ?
on your second point you seem focused on teachers again, if you look back i said teachers or any other public service job. | |||
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"And not lets forget all the loans the government have and need to pay back, hmmmm I wonder if that is what they mean when they say The National Debt? hmmmm
For someone who claims to have extensive experience/knowledge of local politics you certainly don't seem to be displaying it. National politics are a world away from the local stuff, and accordingly, matters of national finance are deliberately kept away from the intense confusion of local council chambers. I've seen the egos at work in town halls and I've stood for election myself (a long long time ago), and local politics is subject to the whims of your local party leader, cross him/her and you're out, without a hint of due democratic process at all."I do think we need to agree to disagree on this one wishy as no matter what I say you come back with a stranger answer.
I will leave you to google everything and read what has had some spin put on it by the media or a rival politician. I will continue to get my info first hand!
PS - I think we all know there is a National Debt (so your answer puzzles me yet again) - local debts too but I won't let you into the secret of which bank my Local Authority gets its loans from | |||
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" wishy then your battle over pensions is with the govt not the public service workers, Why as a nation do we want to destroy the public service pensions insted of lifting the private sector pensions to match,where is the logic in that. Not my battle, a relative is going through this as I said in my inital post. And it's not about destroying public pensions in a bottom up exercise, it's about making the system fairer to all. I'm sure the govt would love to give everyone a lovely little nest egg to retire with when they hit 50 but Greece is living proof that that would be monumentally naive to believe it sustainable. Any one of you people in the private sector could of become a teacher or public worker if you wanted to,they are using the fact you didnt and have suffered at the hands of successive governments against all workers. Not everyone can become a teacher as not everyone is blessed with enough intelligence to get the qualifications required to do so, and of those that are bright enough some of them don't have the temperament to deal with dozens of angst-filled hormonal teenagers on daily basis. C'mon PD, you're much better at debating than this. yes i am wishy ,i wish you were showing your usual wriggle power to get off the hook
earlier you stated and i quote ..."When the govt helps out private sector pensioners who have suffered like those Equitable Lifers then maybe I'll have some empathy with the public sector."
meaning to me that your attack against public sector pensions is based more on your experience of one member who suffered at the hands of a private pension fund.......i totally agree that is a wrong that is cross political and needs putting right...
but i dont understand and maybe you can help me..if you would feel empathy if that condition is met,why cant you feel it anyway ?
on your second point you seem focused on teachers again, if you look back i said teachers or any other public service job. "To answer your last point first, I was answering your specific point that anyone could become a teacher. As to your other points, Polo's post above yours is quite succinct in pointing out the difference between a jealous frenzy and asking for a fairer deal for all. I posted earlier about the public sector pension deficit but as usual I was accused of making things up, misrepresenting statistics blah blah blah when I posted the links to the sources of information I used (as I know if I didn't I'd be asked for them, as is the norm in here), but still it seems some people just do not, or refuse to, absorb facts presented to respected political editors (Robert Preston was the author of one the sources I used, but I'm sure someone will be along soon to discredit his information because it doesn't coincide with their own _iews). We simply cannot afford these expensive final salary pensions, and that's the logn and short of it. If the govt had tried to change them to career average pensions during a period of boom they'd been accused of raiding the pension funds to dole out to the rich, but doing it during a recession to save money is not seen as prudent housekeeping. They can't win whenever they do it because the people it affects directly don't see it as fair - and I'm sure I'd be one of them if it was my pension being readjusted, but that's the true nature of man isn't it.. Sod you Jack, I'm ok. | |||
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"I do think we need to agree to disagree on this one wishy as no matter what I say you come back with a stranger answer.
I will leave you to google everything and read what has had some spin put on it by the media or a rival politician. I will continue to get my info first hand!
PS - I think we all know there is a National Debt (so your answer puzzles me yet again) - local debts too but I won't let you into the secret of which bank my Local Authority gets its loans from "Blah blah blah.. it's always a case of "I know something you don't" with you isn't it. You offer nothing but unsubstantiated waffle to these debates and I'm pretty sure that with enough digging around (YES, ON GOOGLE), I could pinpoint your local authority and reveal it's finances. Why does it seem that people who Google information are becoming increasingly seen in the same light as people who use Wiki? Why have an immense library of information if it's considered that only ignorant people use it? Isn't that what information is supposed to do, highlight and educate? I don't work in local or national government but the Freedom of Information Act ensures that I have access to information held by and about the organisations that govern us. So what that someone built a nice big, reliable search engine for me to use to get that info. I'm not a programmer either so I can't built an engine like that. | |||
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"I do think we need to agree to disagree on this one wishy as no matter what I say you come back with a stranger answer.
I will leave you to google everything and read what has had some spin put on it by the media or a rival politician. I will continue to get my info first hand!
PS - I think we all know there is a National Debt (so your answer puzzles me yet again) - local debts too but I won't let you into the secret of which bank my Local Authority gets its loans from
Blah blah blah.. it's always a case of "I know something you don't" with you isn't it. You offer nothing but unsubstantiated waffle to these debates and I'm pretty sure that with enough digging around (YES, ON GOOGLE), I could pinpoint your local authority and reveal it's finances.
Why does it seem that people who Google information are becoming increasingly seen in the same light as people who use Wiki? Why have an immense library of information if it's considered that only ignorant people use it? Isn't that what information is supposed to do, highlight and educate? I don't work in local or national government but the Freedom of Information Act ensures that I have access to information held by and about the organisations that govern us. So what that someone built a nice big, reliable search engine for me to use to get that info. I'm not a programmer either so I can't built an engine like that."If I was to let out all the secrets though wishy I wouldn't have to worry about my Pension as I wouldn't have a job to put MY OWN contributions into said Pension every month!
PS - Before I leave you to debate the remainder of this thread with others apart from me, I do think it is quite "sweet" that people believe that public sector workers are just a drain on society and stash away all the Council Tax money in their pension funds, but then go on to say the Council Tax pays for all local services
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"The long & short of the causes of this discussion is; the country's national debt as a % of GDP is waaaaaaaay too high. Defaulting sends you back to the Dark Ages, see Argentina for instance. There is literally no difference between how an individual's debt and the state's debt should be managed. Fiscal responsibility is something that scales up and down. Balance the books, and then we'll get some decent economic growth, but not before then. For the record, I study economics and I'm inclined to side with Durkin's recent documentary, which claims we are 4.7 trillion pounds in debt once everything is totted up. It looks smaller on the balance sheets, because the government is using 'creative accounting' techniques that wouldn't be worthy of Enron! There's only 1 real solution, a smaller state. WTF is the government doing running driving schools and other crap like that? To those who think: "oh no, we're more sophisticated now, a large state is a requisite of a western country", you're wrong. The majority of economic growth for this country and America occurred half a century ago, and has been in decline ever since. When there is more wealth in the hands of the state, when compared to all private businesses and individuals put together, we have a problem. The state has slowly but surely increased in scale over the last century, and has never retreated once. The main reason for this has been wars. Wars incur massive debts, which enable large government to continue afterwards since it becomes the norm. Anybody who knows *anything* about this country's statistics in history knows this. It's not a secret! These are facts which cannot be denied. I'm afraid that in the long term, we may be in for a humiliating defeat by other faster growing countries which don't suffer the same levels of taxation as we do. With every 1% increase in overall taxation, you're saying good-bye to a geometric amount of wealth being generated. The trouble is that the wealth destruction that is occuring, is perfectly invisible. You always hear about 1000 jobs lost here or there, but never about the silent absorption of GDP by the state. It's too spread out to count it easily. That's what makes it so dangerous, because it's like boiling a frog slowly to death inside a pot. tl;dr if we don't change quickly within the next two decades, we're utterly fucked. " i agree with much of what you say ,but disagree with some predictions,its clear that wars cost a lot of money but that money is set aside in a war chest and ringfenced \although after ww2 our debt was 3 times GDP and finally formally cleared in the last decade . What i do not understand, is why any government thinks it can reduce structural debt in one term of government, when it has taken as you say 100 years to acrue yeah its noble ,but dogmatic and a major riskand the social cost far too high. I think the mistake was made in the 80s with the sale of govt owned utilities ,and the total decimation of our manufacturing industry with a chant of "you cant buck the market" from the government of the day ,it was not allowed to happen in France or Germany who hold "golden controlling shares" in important corporations allowing them to flout Euro laws governing state aid. Fortunately that little loophole has now been closed,hence german car companies coming under risk of takeover. If you dont make things and sell them at a profit your basically fucked,service industries are too volatile,nebulous and do not create as much employment as successive governments thought. As the emerging economies begin to have higher costs (already happening in china) there will be some levelling (i hope),but one thing is for sure this is clearly not the time though to be experimenting with trying to slash the national debt and praying the private sector will pick up the jobs trashed in the public sector. I know the tories and libs can slash jobs ,ANYONE with a pen can slash jobs,but can they create them ,thats the big question | |||
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"I don't feel I owe teachers above and beyond what they get paid just for the priviledge of teaching my child ...Why should the state, ie the taxpayer, give them even more just for doing their job? " Thing is, they're not asking for more, they're expecting to be repaid via their pension what they've been contractually committed to through their working lives. It generally shouldn't be allowed, in my opinion, to change terms and conditions retrospectively. What private companies often do is have many pension schemes that are launched at different points in their history - some have better/worse conditions and remuneration. An employee joining my company now can't join an old scheme, that was closed a few years back, but only has the option of the new pension scheme, that offers different terms. It's somewhat unfair, but everyone starting work today gets this same offer. The government could, for example, pay teachers for those years employed on the current terms as a % of their working lives, and the remainder at an alternative, if they really don't continue as the scheme currently is. It does seem grossly unfair when someone commits their lives based on a package of remunerative benefits to then not get the complete package that was committed to. It's not as if they will get backdated pay, to the time when they started working, to compensate for the amended overall package of benefits. | |||
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" wishy then your battle over pensions is with the govt not the public service workers, Why as a nation do we want to destroy the public service pensions insted of lifting the private sector pensions to match,where is the logic in that. Not my battle, a relative is going through this as I said in my inital post. And it's not about destroying public pensions in a bottom up exercise, it's about making the system fairer to all. I'm sure the govt would love to give everyone a lovely little nest egg to retire with when they hit 50 but Greece is living proof that that would be monumentally naive to believe it sustainable. Any one of you people in the private sector could of become a teacher or public worker if you wanted to,they are using the fact you didnt and have suffered at the hands of successive governments against all workers. Not everyone can become a teacher as not everyone is blessed with enough intelligence to get the qualifications required to do so, and of those that are bright enough some of them don't have the temperament to deal with dozens of angst-filled hormonal teenagers on daily basis. C'mon PD, you're much better at debating than this. yes i am wishy ,i wish you were showing your usual wriggle power to get off the hook
earlier you stated and i quote ..."When the govt helps out private sector pensioners who have suffered like those Equitable Lifers then maybe I'll have some empathy with the public sector."
meaning to me that your attack against public sector pensions is based more on your experience of one member who suffered at the hands of a private pension fund.......i totally agree that is a wrong that is cross political and needs putting right...
but i dont understand and maybe you can help me..if you would feel empathy if that condition is met,why cant you feel it anyway ?
on your second point you seem focused on teachers again, if you look back i said teachers or any other public service job.
To answer your last point first, I was answering your specific point that anyone could become a teacher.
As to your other points, Polo's post above yours is quite succinct in pointing out the difference between a jealous frenzy and asking for a fairer deal for all.
I posted earlier about the public sector pension deficit but as usual I was accused of making things up, misrepresenting statistics blah blah blah when I posted the links to the sources of information I used (as I know if I didn't I'd be asked for them, as is the norm in here), but still it seems some people just do not, or refuse to, absorb facts presented to respected political editors (Robert Preston was the author of one the sources I used, but I'm sure someone will be along soon to discredit his information because it doesn't coincide with their own _iews).
We simply cannot afford these expensive final salary pensions, and that's the logn and short of it. If the govt had tried to change them to career average pensions during a period of boom they'd been accused of raiding the pension funds to dole out to the rich, but doing it during a recession to save money is not seen as prudent housekeeping. They can't win whenever they do it because the people it affects directly don't see it as fair - and I'm sure I'd be one of them if it was my pension being readjusted, but that's the true nature of man isn't it.. Sod you Jack, I'm ok."wishy now come on ,you havent answered my direct question (admire the distraction technique though )lol
if you can have empathy for public employees re:pensions (if the private pensions were sorted out) ,then why cant you have empathy anyway ?
Re we cant afford it,I have read the Hutton final report on pensions and one of the main points in the executive over_iew and the main text is the need for complete transparency by all parties
Now for some reason despite repeated requests from the unions they do not want to come across with the current value of pension funds or the future predicted cost model.
Without those key figures the unions may as well doff there caps and go yes sir,if they are truly accepting the Hutton report in its entirety as
Dave 1 has said , then where are the figures ,why should the public sevices trust a coalition who will not adhere to the information requirments of the report,without those figures any form of negotiation is pointless ,no wonder they are all going on strike,how arrogant to say in effect like it or lump it. | |||
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"I don't feel I owe teachers above and beyond what they get paid just for the priviledge of teaching my child ...Why should the state, ie the taxpayer, give them even more just for doing their job? Thing is, they're not asking for more, they're expecting to be repaid via their pension what they've been contractually committed to through their working lives. It generally shouldn't be allowed, in my opinion, to change terms and conditions retrospectively. " A change can only be made retrospectively, else it would be a new contract at the beginning of employment that the potential employee can accept and start work, or reject and look elsewhere. " What private companies often do is have many pension schemes that are launched at different points in their history - some have better/worse conditions and remuneration. An employee joining my company now can't join an old scheme, that was closed a few years back, but only has the option of the new pension scheme, that offers different terms. It's somewhat unfair, but everyone starting work today gets this same offer. " Company pensions used to be final salary pensions until Brown changed back to the classical corporation tax system in 97. This denied companies the facility to add tax-free lumps to existing pensions so they started issuing loans to pension funds instead, chargeable at a rate of interest, which is how they were legally permitted to raid those pensions with extortionate interest levels. Eventually the final salary pension was switched to a career average pension to hide those pension fund losses. " The government could, for example, pay teachers for those years employed on the current terms as a % of their working lives, and the remainder at an alternative, if they really don't continue as the scheme currently is. It does seem grossly unfair when someone commits their lives based on a package of remunerative benefits to then not get the complete package that was committed to. It's not as if they will get backdated pay, to the time when they started working, to compensate for the amended overall package of benefits." I think you may have hit on a potential solution there, but it would have to be calculated on a pro-rata basis taking current length of service into account and recalculating the remainder of their working career on a career average. I'd support that. | |||
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" What private companies often do is have many pension schemes that are launched at different points in their history - some have better/worse conditions and remuneration. An employee joining my company now can't join an old scheme, that was closed a few years back, but only has the option of the new pension scheme, that offers different terms. It's somewhat unfair, but everyone starting work today gets this same offer. " I too have experienced this happening. The worrying side of it is.... if you are one of the youngest people in the closed/frozen schemes, you have to keep your fingers crossed there is enough money left in the scheme to pay you when it is your time to retire. With no new members joining the scheme eventually there will be more people taking out than putting in.... and that is when the shit will hit the fan. The company I currently work for got rid of the lot and we were all put into the same one. I pay in a bit more, I will get a fair bit less.... but I have a much safer chance of the money being there when it is my time. | |||
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" What private companies often do is have many pension schemes that are launched at different points in their history - some have better/worse conditions and remuneration. An employee joining my company now can't join an old scheme, that was closed a few years back, but only has the option of the new pension scheme, that offers different terms. It's somewhat unfair, but everyone starting work today gets this same offer. I too have experienced this happening. The worrying side of it is.... if you are one of the youngest people in the closed/frozen schemes, you have to keep your fingers crossed there is enough money left in the scheme to pay you when it is your time to retire. With no new members joining the scheme eventually there will be more people taking out than putting in.... and that is when the shit will hit the fan. The company I currently work for got rid of the lot and we were all put into the same one. I pay in a bit more, I will get a fair bit less.... but I have a much safer chance of the money being there when it is my time." Personally I think the idea of investing your pension through a corporation is insane, and I'm a capitalist. Each person should setup their own stuff early in life, this should be expected of people. Average stock market return is 10% over long periods, so just through some $$$s into there in your 20s and 30s, 40s, and you'll be set for retirement. The main problem is actually that people wait until they are 40+ before thinking of their retirement plans. This totally goes against compound interest. We need more education on this subject. People seem witless in terms of making their own financial decisions in life. I think the government should offer a barebones pension for those hard-up or unlucky later in life, but I don't believe everyone should be offered a pension by default. Remember, I'm a capitalist, it sticks in my craw that wealthy middle class or rich get a pension. Why? What's the point? We need more meritocracy in this country. Taking money from diminishing sized set of working young people to give to an ageing population is completely mad and unsustainable. In the USA, the Social Security system is going bust over it. There's just no money left. | |||
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" but it's a bit rich to ask a private sector taxpayer to pay for his own pension, and then contribute to a public one for someone else" Yup. Similarly with those who send their kids to private schooling. They are paying twice over. This is fundamentally unfair and anti-meritocratic. | |||
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"Firemen by law have to take early retirement at the age of 55 or 30 years service which ever comes first. I would like to see the pension age reduced to 60 and jobs go to the younger generation if they can be arsed to get out their bed to work. Anybody watched the Fairy Jobmother on tv " Hold on a sec. There are plenty of jobs for ex-firemen who are not on active front line duty. Private companies always need ex-firemen/women for fire assessment and maintenance at their plants and factories. Often these men and women are drawing a nice final salary pension plus being paid a more than liveable salary in their new positions. The Armed Forces are the same and my b-in-law came out two years ago, on a bloody good pension and was re-employed immediately doing his old job back in Afghanistan on 3 times the salary. Skilled men and women from the public sector will always find good work after their public service has finished, and they're pretty much set for life into the bargain. | |||
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" Anybody watched the Fairy Jobmother on tv " is a reality tv game show those jobs clubs we use to have, but now are gone since the torries came into power | |||
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"Is waiting patiently..........not long now "Any closer? | |||
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"@PD: Please don't think that I don't sympathise with people who were given a set of conditions at one point in their careers and are now faced with a change in those conditions. I do sympathise with them, but striking isn't the way to argue one's case as it pitches the govt against the unions and the private sector against the public sector. Nobody wins. The main point that I agree with what the govt are doing is that whether public or private - pensions should be the same for all. If a company sets up a pension then they should contribute to it pound for pound like public sector pensions enjoy, but it's a bit rich to ask a private sector taxpayer to pay for his own pension, and then contribute to a public one for someone else, (and I'm not having it that a percentage of council tax doesn't go into local council pension funds when evidence to the contrary is freely available)." yeah its ok wishy i just like the idea of you answering 5 questions at a time,does Dave know your the govts representative on Fabs  | |||
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" Companies cannot afford the required levels of pension payments, that's why many go bust. Many can't afford their rent payments, invariably to Pension Fund holders. Companies will lawfully minimise tax, hell even U2 do it, or go abroad for lower tax regimes. This utopia of good pensions for all ain't ever gonna happen. Yet the public workers want to keep their share. OK, not technically "gold plated" but guaranteed sums, inflation proofed ( even if to the lower index ), boosted by some 13-20% from ALL taxpayers, is as it's gonna get to gold plated. In Hull, we have two bus operators, one of which closed its Pension scheme to newcomers from about a year ago, because, the costs were growing too much. There's still a gap in the pensions payout, which the company has pledged to fill, but as their Chairman has stated, it isn't a bottomless pit of money; they had to draw a line somewhere! It has got to a stage when pensions can't be guaranteed, just as jobs for life are no longer viable. Whilst I'm in a Union, I'm against the strikes. My local Office had continually sent me emails asking me to support the strikers. But when I indicated that had all other means of dialogue failed, meaning that strike action was the only available option left, their response became very much a political one, out to "bash the Tories" I did ask if they would have taken the same action if it had been Labour still in charge and taking the same stance, especially considering that it was Labour over recent years got us into this financial quagmire? Their reply? I'm still waiting! Whilst I have some sympathy for the teachers, etc., they still have work, especially in these uncertain times, employment wise! two weeks ago Danny Alexander, Treasury Secretary, announced the governemnt's decision on what it would do about public sector pensions. So yes, negotiations have failed, and the government is not negotiating in good faith. Or Danny Alexander must be sacked. Simple as... So, why has it been over the past 2 weeks, and even during PM's Questions on Wednesday, that the Government line was that talks with the Unions were still ongoing? And, on our local BBC TV news programme earlier this week, the presenter pushed the regional NUT boss about the same point; the Union guy had to admit they were taking strike action, even though that negotiations are STILL continuing!" good question. Ask Danny Alexander why he inflamed the situation. | |||
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"ooppss I forgot to add my sources for the above info Sources:- My own common sense along with my life/work experience and no internet searches were used in preparing the above!
~
From Nottinghamshire County Council:
(googled it dontcha know, but it's indicative of all county councils)
Council Tax is collected by District Councils.
Your District Council:
•sends out your Council Tax bill
•works out if you are entitled to any discounts or benefits
•collects your Council Tax, either through Direct Debits, paying in person, telephone payments – there are lots of ways to pay.
•offers advice if you are having trouble paying your Council Tax
Once the money has been collected, your District Council keeps its share of the money, and distributes the rest to:
•Nottinghamshire County Council
•Nottinghamshire Police Authority
•Nottinghamshire Fire and Rescue Service
•your Parish or Town Council (if you have one)
~ (psst, they're probably lying eh?)
Your 'sources' cannot be quantified and your say so offers no proof, I could make any number of loose claims about my experience and quote that as an undeniable concrete source.
The BBC News website is one I use extensively and the information regarding pension deficits was something I knew to be on that site having read it previously. No google needed there, BBC has it's own search function you know, which was the method I used to find the other report.
If you'd read my post in any great detail at all you'd have seen that I was not being pro-Tory and anti-Labour as the reports I quoted from made it clear that neither party was guilty of pension-raiding whilst in office in '73 and '97, but the measures they took to try and close the tax loopholes they'd found could be misconstrued as tax raids.
You chose to concentrate on the last paragraph though and insinuate that Eric Pickles is a liar. So here's a little bit of info about the man:
Eric Pickles is widely respected across all parties as a man of integrity and honour and one of only a few MPs to emerge from the expenses scandal completely untarnished. At his own insistence he visited his constituency gazette with details of all his expenses and invited them to scrutinise and print them, and they are also openly available on his website, along with his declaration of interests. He has extensive knowledge of local council affairs so I'd trust his declaration of where council tax monies go over yours any day of the week.
But you'll probably put all that down to lies and misinformation too, won't you."Three lines in and you say that your quote from Nottinghamshire is indicative of all county councils. Wrong. Some County Councils are unitaries, and therefore collect the council tax themselves. Not all counties have Fire and rescue Services that precept separately. you see the perils of googling? | |||
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