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Oh dear, Greece is imploding!
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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What is happening in Athens at the moment could well spill over into some of the other weaker economies in Europe. There may be trouble ahead! 
And we'll probably have to bear a % of it!  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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what the people in athens are doing more should be.
they got the guts to show they are pissed off with cut backs and more cut backs.
yes we will have to pay something which i dont agree with but money is clearly being wasted and the rich never seem to suffer.
so as in athens people have had enough and its chaos.
when the euro collapses things will get much worse than this. |
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I know it's all about the newer austerity measures to qualify for loan 2 (loan 3 is already in the pipeline apparently) but I've never quite grasped what is in these new austerity measure that has made the Greeks snap, is it just super high taxation or more?
I've read that if they do take loan 3 and default on it (which they will) Greece will pretty much be a country in name alone, as UK, France and Germany will own virtually all of their assets.
What a mess!
Ireland or Portugal next? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Good on the greek people,i can see why they have had enough,especially as many affluent greeks dont pay their taxes,and who ever said the european union was a good thing....i rest my case..... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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The average worker in Greece earns c.£60k and retires at 50 on a final pension. These things have been given to them by successive governments who were desperate for their votes. Greece also fiddled their books when they applied to join the Euro (I'd be extremely surprised if Brussels didn't know this already, but chose to ignore it in their eagerness to get the Euro going).
Greece cannot afford these expensive salaries and pensions, they simply don't have the money, and it would be obscene for European countries to loan Greece billions of Euros to finance a luxurious lifestyle for those who have retired and are no longer working to pay it back. |
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"The average worker in Greece earns c.£60k and retires at 50 on a final pension. These things have been given to them by successive governments who were desperate for their votes. Greece also fiddled their books when they applied to join the Euro (I'd be extremely surprised if Brussels didn't know this already, but chose to ignore it in their eagerness to get the Euro going).
Greece cannot afford these expensive salaries and pensions, they simply don't have the money, and it would be obscene for European countries to loan Greece billions of Euros to finance a luxurious lifestyle for those who have retired and are no longer working to pay it back."
Unlikely Wishy.
Where do you get your stats? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"And we'll probably have to bear a % of it!
By the way for the lenders it's a fucking great deal! See my post above!"
If they default on their debts it will have the same effect as Brazil defaulting a few years ago had. Banks assets are measured in terms of the money they are owed as well as the money they have on hand. Greece defaulting would strip assets from it's creditors and plunge Europe into another recession. Brown's so called 'double-dip'. We have to keep lending to prevent that happening. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The average worker in Greece earns c.£60k and retires at 50 on a final pension. These things have been given to them by successive governments who were desperate for their votes. Greece also fiddled their books when they applied to join the Euro (I'd be extremely surprised if Brussels didn't know this already, but chose to ignore it in their eagerness to get the Euro going).
Greece cannot afford these expensive salaries and pensions, they simply don't have the money, and it would be obscene for European countries to loan Greece billions of Euros to finance a luxurious lifestyle for those who have retired and are no longer working to pay it back.
Unlikely Wishy.
Where do you get your stats?"
Apologies, I meant government departments. The average worker in Greece gets €25k. |
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By *ENGUYMan
over a year ago
Hull |
"I know it's all about the newer austerity measures to qualify for loan 2 (loan 3 is already in the pipeline apparently) but I've never quite grasped what is in these new austerity measure that has made the Greeks snap, is it just super high taxation or more?
I've read that if they do take loan 3 and default on it (which they will) Greece will pretty much be a country in name alone, as UK, France and Germany will own virtually all of their assets.
What a mess!
Ireland or Portugal next? "
There was a feature in one of the major Sunday broadsheet papers a few months back, that France and Germany have begun to reprint their one-time respective currencies, and hold these currency supplies in reserve.
They fear that even a partial collapse of the Euro is inevitable. If and when it does, they'll pull out and revert back to where they left off. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"There was a feature in one of the major Sunday broadsheet papers a few months back, that France and Germany have begun to reprint their one-time respective currencies, and hold these currency supplies in reserve.
They fear that even a partial collapse of the Euro is inevitable. If and when it does, they'll pull out and revert back to where they left off. "
France & Germany are the strongest economies in the eurozone and without them the Euro currency will fail. How much debt will be 'mislaid' when that happens remains to be seen, and that's our cash up the swanee! |
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"The average worker in Greece earns c.£60k and retires at 50 on a final pension. These things have been given to them by successive governments who were desperate for their votes. Greece also fiddled their books when they applied to join the Euro (I'd be extremely surprised if Brussels didn't know this already, but chose to ignore it in their eagerness to get the Euro going).
Greece cannot afford these expensive salaries and pensions, they simply don't have the money, and it would be obscene for European countries to loan Greece billions of Euros to finance a luxurious lifestyle for those who have retired and are no longer working to pay it back."
I think you are not far of the mark with your comments. Although I don't know exact figures but the citizens of Greece and other counties like Portugal and Spain have not had to pay anywhere near the rates of Income Tax, National Insurance, VAT, Duty on fuels that we do here in the UK. They have had it relativley easy for decades. |
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By *ENGUYMan
over a year ago
Hull |
"The average worker in Greece earns c.£60k and retires at 50 on a final pension. These things have been given to them by successive governments who were desperate for their votes. Greece also fiddled their books when they applied to join the Euro (I'd be extremely surprised if Brussels didn't know this already, but chose to ignore it in their eagerness to get the Euro going).
Greece cannot afford these expensive salaries and pensions, they simply don't have the money, and it would be obscene for European countries to loan Greece billions of Euros to finance a luxurious lifestyle for those who have retired and are no longer working to pay it back.
I think you are not far of the mark with your comments. Although I don't know exact figures but the citizens of Greece and other counties like Portugal and Spain have not had to pay anywhere near the rates of Income Tax, National Insurance, VAT, Duty on fuels that we do here in the UK. They have had it relativley easy for decades."
They also have massive problems with their tax systems, essentially, they are not retrieving the sums they should from the millionaires and billionaires that have settled in the country.
The past administrations have allowed all these fat cats to settle in their country and haven't been able to extract taxes from them; the country is owed literally billions over many years!
It is a lax government that has got away with it for so long, but done nothing! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I think you are not far of the mark with your comments. Although I don't know exact figures but the citizens of Greece and other counties like Portugal and Spain have not had to pay anywhere near the rates of Income Tax, National Insurance, VAT, Duty on fuels that we do here in the UK. They have had it relativley easy for decades."
From BusinessDay:
"
The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job. The national railroad has annual revenues of 100 million euros ($134 million) against an annual wage bill of 400 million, plus 300 million euros in other expenses. The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year. Twenty years ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece's rail passengers into taxicabs: it's still true. “We have a railroad company which is bankrupt beyond comprehension,” Manos put it to me. “And yet there isn't a single private company in Greece with that kind of average pay.” The Greek public-school system is the site of breathtaking inefficiency: one of the lowest-ranked systems in Europe, it nonetheless employs four times as many teachers per pupil as the highest-ranked, Finland's. Greeks who send their children to public schools simply assume that they will need to hire private tutors to make sure they actually learn something.
And there's more:
The retirement age for Greek jobs classified as “arduous” is as early as 55 for men and 50 for women. As this is also the moment when the state begins to shovel out generous pensions, more than 600 Greek professions somehow managed to get themselves classified as arduous: hairdressers, radio announcers, waiters, musicians, and on and on and on.
"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The average worker in Greece earns c.£60k and retires at 50 on a final pension. These things have been given to them by successive governments who were desperate for their votes. Greece also fiddled their books when they applied to join the Euro (I'd be extremely surprised if Brussels didn't know this already, but chose to ignore it in their eagerness to get the Euro going).
Greece cannot afford these expensive salaries and pensions, they simply don't have the money, and it would be obscene for European countries to loan Greece billions of Euros to finance a luxurious lifestyle for those who have retired and are no longer working to pay it back.
Unlikely Wishy.
Where do you get your stats?"
I was just thinking the same  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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" Where do you get your stats?
I was just thinking the same
Read above.
Odd as most places quote €2,323 a month as the average "
I apologised for my initial error in omitting the word 'government' when I put 'average worker' - it should have read 'average government worker'. It was a genuine mistake in my haste to post the thread. I've backed up my subsequent post with a credible source of information.
The retirement figure is accurate though. Many professions in Greece are regarded as 'arduous' and under those guidelines they become pensionable from 50 for women, 55 for men - at which point a very lucrative government pension kicks in. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Where do you get your stats?
I was just thinking the same
Read above.
Odd as most places quote €2,323 a month as the average
I apologised for my initial error in omitting the word 'government' when I put 'average worker' - it should have read 'average government worker'. It was a genuine mistake in my haste to post the thread. I've backed up my subsequent post with a credible source of information.
The retirement figure is accurate though. Many professions in Greece are regarded as 'arduous' and under those guidelines they become pensionable from 50 for women, 55 for men - at which point a very lucrative government pension kicks in."
So its only the government workers protesting then? I really don't know where you dream your facts up from sometimes. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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" So its only the government workers protesting then? I really don't know where you dream your facts up from sometimes. "
Nope, it's the average private sector worker who has to pay for all the fatcat public pensions with austerity measures who are protesting. Try switiching over to SkyNews or BBC News right now and you'll see a lot more info on it than I can put in here.
If you can't be arsed, keep ya snidey comments to yourself. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" So its only the government workers protesting then? I really don't know where you dream your facts up from sometimes.
Nope, it's the average private sector worker who has to pay for all the fatcat public pensions with austerity measures who are protesting. Try switiching over to SkyNews or BBC News right now and you'll see a lot more info on it than I can put in here.
If you can't be arsed, keep ya snidey comments to yourself."
As with everyone you just start to insult people! You really have no clue have you, well if you had family over there you might spout less rubbish. |
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By *ENGUYMan
over a year ago
Hull |
"Huh? Where have I insulted anyone?
Can someone please point that out to me? "
The problem is that someone else on here doesn't agree with the figures and stats you are quoting!
BUT, different forms of media quote different things, so it is entirely likely that all the facts as quoted from various sources ar all correct.
But if someone can't accept there are variations on a theme, that is their problem! Not yours!  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Huh? Where have I insulted anyone?
Can someone please point that out to me?
The problem is that someone else on here doesn't agree with the figures and stats you are quoting!
BUT, different forms of media quote different things, so it is entirely likely that all the facts as quoted from various sources ar all correct.
But if someone can't accept there are variations on a theme, that is their problem! Not yours! "
Well, it's those types of head in the sand idealists who have got Greece into the trouble it currently faces. Did the Greek people honestly think that a hugely loss-making public transport system would never collapse, that lucrative pensions for hundreds of thousands of people would never run out of money? It's basic maths, and if someone can't see that then I dread to think what the state of their own finances must be like. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Huh? Where have I insulted anyone?
Can someone please point that out to me? "
To call someone snidey is insulting and uncalled for. You seem to get nasty with anyone who disagrees with you. Take a chill pill and be more polite and you might enjoy the forums more. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Huh? Where have I insulted anyone?
Can someone please point that out to me?
To call someone snidey is insulting and uncalled for. You seem to get nasty with anyone who disagrees with you. Take a chill pill and be more polite and you might enjoy the forums more. "
I enjoy the forums quite a lot thank you very much. I also have a good comprehension of the English language. The guy said I was talking rubbish yet offered no alternative sources to back up his comment. That made it nothing more than a snide comment.
~
snide/snid/Adjective
1. Derogatory or mocking in an indirect way: "snide remarks".
2. (of a person) Devious and underhanded.
~
My comment in response was direct, thus not snide.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Now don't I remember that Neil Kinnock sacked the auditor of the EU's finances who blew the whistle on what was happening?   "
It was known for years that Greece would default at some point and bond prices have had that already built in to absorb most of the impact of it. What worries me most is that Brussels absolutely cannot afford to allow Greece to go bust as it knows it would sound the death knell for the Euro. The UK are reasonably distanced enough from the Eurozone to lessen our exposure to it, but our membership of the IMF does expose us to a degree. And that body now has a French head in place. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Huh? Where have I insulted anyone?
Can someone please point that out to me?
To call someone snidey is insulting and uncalled for. You seem to get nasty with anyone who disagrees with you. Take a chill pill and be more polite and you might enjoy the forums more.
I enjoy the forums quite a lot thank you very much. I also have a good comprehension of the English language. The guy said I was talking rubbish yet offered no alternative sources to back up his comment. That made it nothing more than a snide comment.
~
snide/snid/Adjective
1. Derogatory or mocking in an indirect way: "snide remarks".
2. (of a person) Devious and underhanded.
~
My comment in response was direct, thus not snide.
"
I do not need a definition thank you i was only responding to you asking someone to point out to you. If you look back you called him snidy. I was only trying to help. |
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"Long as it dosn't effect my weekly kebab meh.
Lol i am sure your kebab is made from British or New Zealand lamb "
Yeah right! Like a lamb of any nationality has gone anywhere near the Great British Donner. Try rat, cat or dog! Mmmmm but they taste so yummy!!!! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Long as it dosn't effect my weekly kebab meh.
Lol i am sure your kebab is made from British or New Zealand lamb
Yeah right! Like a lamb of any nationality has gone anywhere near the Great British Donner. Try rat, cat or dog! Mmmmm but they taste so yummy!!!!"
Only after ten pints of falling down juice. Can't stomach the muck sober. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Long as it dosn't effect my weekly kebab meh.
Lol i am sure your kebab is made from British or New Zealand lamb
Yeah right! Like a lamb of any nationality has gone anywhere near the Great British Donner. Try rat, cat or dog! Mmmmm but they taste so yummy!!!!"
Its so not cat! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Long as it dosn't effect my weekly kebab meh.
Lol i am sure your kebab is made from British or New Zealand lamb
Yeah right! Like a lamb of any nationality has gone anywhere near the Great British Donner. Try rat, cat or dog! Mmmmm but they taste so yummy!!!!
Its so not cat! "
Then why does my mouth taste like a pussy the morning after eating one? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Long as it dosn't effect my weekly kebab meh.
Lol i am sure your kebab is made from British or New Zealand lamb
Yeah right! Like a lamb of any nationality has gone anywhere near the Great British Donner. Try rat, cat or dog! Mmmmm but they taste so yummy!!!!"
You leave my rat alone! I love my rat |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Long as it dosn't effect my weekly kebab meh.
Lol i am sure your kebab is made from British or New Zealand lamb
Yeah right! Like a lamb of any nationality has gone anywhere near the Great British Donner. Try rat, cat or dog! Mmmmm but they taste so yummy!!!!
Its so not cat! "
Def taste Pussy in them... |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
A bit of backstory here... The only reason why the men's retirement age is 55, is because in the last bail out they put it up from 52! And I can see why if you are a Brit who retires at 65 or a german who retires at 67 would begrudge giving money away....
Remember that the taxes are going up on the private sector and none of the cuts propsed is on the public sector because it all kicked off last time and the Greek parliament turned that down |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Long as it dosn't effect my weekly kebab meh.
Lol i am sure your kebab is made from British or New Zealand lamb
Yeah right! Like a lamb of any nationality has gone anywhere near the Great British Donner. Try rat, cat or dog! Mmmmm but they taste so yummy!!!!
Its so not cat!
Def taste Pussy in them..."
Its made from minced lamb! |
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"Long as it dosn't effect my weekly kebab meh.
Lol i am sure your kebab is made from British or New Zealand lamb
Yeah right! Like a lamb of any nationality has gone anywhere near the Great British Donner. Try rat, cat or dog! Mmmmm but they taste so yummy!!!!
Its so not cat!
Def taste Pussy in them...
Its made from minced lamb! "
You keep telling yourself that. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"A bit of backstory here... The only reason why the men's retirement age is 55, is because in the last bail out they put it up from 52! And I can see why if you are a Brit who retires at 65 or a german who retires at 67 would begrudge giving money away....
Remember that the taxes are going up on the private sector and none of the cuts propsed is on the public sector because it all kicked off last time and the Greek parliament turned that down"
The Greek govt have just passed the austerity measures laid down by the EU. They had no choice this time around. I'm so glad we didn't go in, I've never supported the Euro even though I do think a European Government is simply a matter of time. This crisis will test Europe's strength to get out of a mess intact, if they manage it then it will surely give the EU more credence and that will make it more difficult for us to remain outside it. Eurosceptics must be willing Greece to default, europhiles, the exact opposite. Never have the battle lines been so more clearly defined, in my opinion. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Long as it dosn't effect my weekly kebab meh.
Lol i am sure your kebab is made from British or New Zealand lamb
Yeah right! Like a lamb of any nationality has gone anywhere near the Great British Donner. Try rat, cat or dog! Mmmmm but they taste so yummy!!!!
Its so not cat!
Def taste Pussy in them...
Its made from minced lamb!
You keep telling yourself that. "
It is! I have just googled it anyway |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A bit of backstory here... The only reason why the men's retirement age is 55, is because in the last bail out they put it up from 52! And I can see why if you are a Brit who retires at 65 or a german who retires at 67 would begrudge giving money away....
Remember that the taxes are going up on the private sector and none of the cuts propsed is on the public sector because it all kicked off last time and the Greek parliament turned that down"
And "Doctor Rock" has the nerve to take it out on wishy!
If you're listening Doctor Rock, I'd make Augusto Pinochet look like a goddamn saint if I were in charge. I'd even make you pay for your plane ticket. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"A bit of backstory here... The only reason why the men's retirement age is 55, is because in the last bail out they put it up from 52! And I can see why if you are a Brit who retires at 65 or a german who retires at 67 would begrudge giving money away....
Remember that the taxes are going up on the private sector and none of the cuts propsed is on the public sector because it all kicked off last time and the Greek parliament turned that down
And "Doctor Rock" has the nerve to take it out on wishy!
If you're listening Doctor Rock, I'd make Augusto Pinochet look like a goddamn saint if I were in charge. I'd even make you pay for your plane ticket. "
Even Greeks should beware Greeks bearing gifts. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A bit of backstory here... The only reason why the men's retirement age is 55, is because in the last bail out they put it up from 52! And I can see why if you are a Brit who retires at 65 or a german who retires at 67 would begrudge giving money away....
Remember that the taxes are going up on the private sector and none of the cuts propsed is on the public sector because it all kicked off last time and the Greek parliament turned that down
And "Doctor Rock" has the nerve to take it out on wishy!
If you're listening Doctor Rock, I'd make Augusto Pinochet look like a goddamn saint if I were in charge. I'd even make you pay for your plane ticket.
Even Greeks should beware Greeks bearing gifts. "
Absolutely. I have more respect for the black market than the expansion of the state. One of them is doing a dramatically more honest business. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Absolutely. I have more respect for the black market than the expansion of the state. One of them is doing a dramatically more honest business."
Agreed. A guy gives you a price of £600 to build a new wall and you pay him £600. The govt tell you what you'll pay in council tax and that figure is subject to whatever rises the local council feels it can get away with. Energy companies are my biggest bugbear, they pass on the losses but keep all the profits, and more. |
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The vast majority of Greek workers retire at the age of 60, much of the retiring at 50 stuff has been blown up out of all proprtion....mainly by American Republican groups who oppose massive US financial input into the IMF.
That 60 retirement age, which as I said applies to the vast majority of the Greek population, is soon to rise to 63.
One of the main reasons for the large proportion of Public Service workers in countries like Greece, Spain and Portugal is down to lack of manufacturing in all three countries...
All three countries rely heavily on tourism, there are very little Private sector jobs compared to countries like Britain, France and Germany so if you don't work in the tourism industry the slack is mainly taken up by jobs in the Public Sector.
The train of thought in all three countries is that rather than have even more people on benefits (they already suffer from mass unemployment) they should bolster Public Service jobs.
Having just spent a few weeks property hunting in the Costa Dourada I can only applaud their Public Services, they place great importance on things like street cleaning, policing, public area maintenance, public transport etc.
They know how important tourism is to the national economy, and they employ many in these areas so that the region is kept clean, tidy, and relatively low on crime involving tourists.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Thanks for your input Jane.
It's admirable that you've seen a place that is clean, well it and the other things you mentioned but it is sustainable if the people employed to do those jobs are paid 3 times more than a private sector employee and then given a huge pension at an early age.
Greece is £1.3tr in debt, and that figure grows by £25,000 PER SECOND (source: BBC News, yesterday)
The country needs £110bn just to keep functioning, god knows what it will take to put it back on an even keel. Current reports suggest upto a decade of austerity measures. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The vast majority of Greek workers retire at the age of 60, much of the retiring at 50 stuff has been blown up out of all proprtion....mainly by American Republican groups who oppose massive US financial input into the IMF.
That 60 retirement age, which as I said applies to the vast majority of the Greek population, is soon to rise to 63.
One of the main reasons for the large proportion of Public Service workers in countries like Greece, Spain and Portugal is down to lack of manufacturing in all three countries...
All three countries rely heavily on tourism, there are very little Private sector jobs compared to countries like Britain, France and Germany so if you don't work in the tourism industry the slack is mainly taken up by jobs in the Public Sector.
The train of thought in all three countries is that rather than have even more people on benefits (they already suffer from mass unemployment) they should bolster Public Service jobs.
Having just spent a few weeks property hunting in the Costa Dourada I can only applaud their Public Services, they place great importance on things like street cleaning, policing, public area maintenance, public transport etc.
They know how important tourism is to the national economy, and they employ many in these areas so that the region is kept clean, tidy, and relatively low on crime involving tourists.
"
With all due respect, that's a not a very good argument for a large public sector. The private sector is smaller for a very simple reason: taxes that are too high for its industry to be competitive.
A tax on labour produces less of it. When you tax alcohol, ciggies, there is little doubt about the effect of it. But when it comes to human labour, suddenly a million excuses pop out of the woodwork. You can't violate the basic principals of economics, no matter how 'sophisticated' the arguments are.
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
To wishy
See I don't disagree with the concept of the euro as such, however if they had stuck to the original European central bank rules then Greece, Ireland and portugal would never have been allowed to join, which says a lot more about the politics than it does the economics!
Basically Greece acted like a kid with a brand new credit card and overspent massively.. And kept on getting loans based on the strength of the euro
Oooh a proper economic conversation on a swinging site... Don't see that often |
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The average Public Sector worker in Greece, Spain and Portugal doesn't earn much at all actually, the average Public Sector worker in Spain for instance earns considerably less than they do in the UK.
Taking Public Sector managers and Administrators wages as an average proves nothing at all.....the street cleaners, dustmen, even the police officers of Spain earn far less than their British counterparts.
It's like comparing the salary of a UK Council Executive to the guy that cleans the towns toilets in his borough....
Like in the UK the VAST majority of Public Sector workers don't get huge pensions and huge wages. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"To wishy
See I don't disagree with the concept of the euro as such, however if they had stuck to the original European central bank rules then Greece, Ireland and portugal would never have been allowed to join, which says a lot more about the politics than it does the economics!
Basically Greece acted like a kid with a brand new credit card and overspent massively.. And kept on getting loans based on the strength of the euro
Oooh a proper economic conversation on a swinging site... Don't see that often"
I tend to view the EU as a neccessary stepping stone to a much wider sphere of world government. We're still hundreds of years away from that but it has to begin somewhere, sometime. I just don't think now is the time for it and monetary union is not the way to initiate it. |
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As most Greek workers in the Private Sector are in the notoriously poorly paid Agriculture and Tourism industries then it's no surprise that the Public Sector pays more.
Until the minimum wage was brought into the UK it wasn't unheard of for farm workers and hotel workers in rural aras to earn less than £3 an hour....in fact it was the norm.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The average Public Sector worker in Greece, Spain and Portugal doesn't earn much at all actually, the average Public Sector worker in Spain for instance earns considerably less than they do in the UK.
Taking Public Sector managers and Administrators wages as an average proves nothing at all.....the street cleaners, dustmen, even the police officers of Spain earn far less than their British counterparts.
It's like comparing the salary of a UK Council Executive to the guy that cleans the towns toilets in his borough....
Like in the UK the VAST majority of Public Sector workers don't get huge pensions and huge wages."
You're right. You can't compare the UK and Greece. Like we're saying, the wages and tax rates are too high for Greece. It's standard of living has to decrease and it's industry to increase.
The lenders of capital to Greece are requesting that 150,000 public service employees be fired and 50 billion euros of state property be sold ASAP. That tells you something about how bad it is.
Yup, they'll be riots in the streets, but it'll happen one way, or the other. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"As most Greek workers in the Private Sector are in the notoriously poorly paid Agriculture and Tourism industries then it's no surprise that the Public Sector pays more.
Until the minimum wage was brought into the UK it wasn't unheard of for farm workers and hotel workers in rural aras to earn less than £3 an hour....in fact it was the norm.
"
When was this? Links please. In any case, you'll notice that illegals will be hired for those jobs if the minimum wage is uncompetitive. I've worked on a farm before, and as a cleaner. Didn't see a single person of my nationality working in those jobs. Irish people didn't want the jobs and couldn't do them. The law of supply and demand works no matter how strict the government becomes. |
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"As most Greek workers in the Private Sector are in the notoriously poorly paid Agriculture and Tourism industries then it's no surprise that the Public Sector pays more.
Until the minimum wage was brought into the UK it wasn't unheard of for farm workers and hotel workers in rural aras to earn less than £3 an hour....in fact it was the norm.
When was this? Links please. In any case, you'll notice that illegals will be hired for those jobs if the minimum wage is uncompetitive. I've worked on a farm before, and as a cleaner. Didn't see a single person of my nationality working in those jobs. Irish people didn't want the jobs and couldn't do them. The law of supply and demand works no matter how strict the government becomes."
Links please?
The hotel sector in the Southwest of the UK was up in arms at the introduction of the minimum wage...they still to this day cite it as the reason for a record number of Devon hotels ceasing to trade in 2010.....13 years after the introduction of the minimum wage.
Farmers paid 'F' all to land workers before the minimum wage was brought in, it's introduction has had them moaning about it in my local village pub ever since. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"As most Greek workers in the Private Sector are in the notoriously poorly paid Agriculture and Tourism industries then it's no surprise that the Public Sector pays more.
Until the minimum wage was brought into the UK it wasn't unheard of for farm workers and hotel workers in rural aras to earn less than £3 an hour....in fact it was the norm.
"
I understand where you're coming from in terms of low paid private sector jobs leading to some 600+ private sector industries declaring themsleves to be 'arduous' jobs thus qualifying them for early retirement and a high pension. That's one instance of Greece circumventing fiscal rules of costing and accounting. The other is awarding public sector employees salaries that are much higher than those in the private sector (that haven't declared themselves to be doing arduous jobs), and then giving them a high pension when they retire at 50/55.
Again, costability and accounting dictates that sooner or later the expenditure of such policies will outgrow the income the govt receive from it's entire working force, public or private - and that's where Greece is today. Many of the rioters in Athens are private sector because they know their jobs and security have been waylaid by public sector perks. Many of them are young people who see nothing on the horizon that isn't bleak and full of emptiness.
Even now, with Athens in riot, 138 of Greece's ministers voted against EU austerity measures even in the full knowledge that if the austerity measures were not passed there would be no further money from the EU/IMF. It was carried through by 155 ministers voting for it.
It would have been interesting to see if the EU would have carried out it's threat and abstained from further funds being released to Greece if the measures had not been passed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"As most Greek workers in the Private Sector are in the notoriously poorly paid Agriculture and Tourism industries then it's no surprise that the Public Sector pays more.
Until the minimum wage was brought into the UK it wasn't unheard of for farm workers and hotel workers in rural aras to earn less than £3 an hour....in fact it was the norm.
When was this? Links please. In any case, you'll notice that illegals will be hired for those jobs if the minimum wage is uncompetitive. I've worked on a farm before, and as a cleaner. Didn't see a single person of my nationality working in those jobs. Irish people didn't want the jobs and couldn't do them. The law of supply and demand works no matter how strict the government becomes.
Links please?
The hotel sector in the Southwest of the UK was up in arms at the introduction of the minimum wage...they still to this day cite it as the reason for a record number of Devon hotels ceasing to trade in 2010.....13 years after the introduction of the minimum wage.
Farmers paid 'F' all to land workers before the minimum wage was brought in, it's introduction has had them moaning about it in my local village pub ever since."
I'm not English, I cannot be expected to have such background information, so I ask for references and evidence to support your claim. Land labourers and hotel staff in Ireland are paid relatively well, with most of them earning well above the minimum wage of 9 euros per hour, as well as various perks such as reduced rent for the hotelier staff. |
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Hotel staff in Devon (well the part where I live anyway) are in the main paid the minimum wage of £5.93 (over 21).
If the Irish pay over 9 Euros an hour for hotel workers then why is it that there are so many Irish hotel workers in England....are they mad?, stay at home and earn more!
On the subject of the Irish minimum wage, why has the British government been subsidising a 9 Euro an hour minimum wage in Eire by bailing out the Irish economy?
Our minimum wage is £3 an hour less than the Irish rate....but we can still lend them money?
Beggars belief! |
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On the matter of the US, two items from BBC news articles in recent months :
1. In California, a significant number of firemen have taken to sleeping at the fire station over the last three years of service in order to maximise their earnings on which their pensions are payable, possibly for a further 40 years or more.
2. Minnesota or Wisconsin area, i forget which, complains that public authority bus drivers are on £150,000 per annum ( approx £93,000 ). Obviously pensions to match.
These may not be the VAST majority of public sector workers but every one of these drains the public funds, increases debt.
The common thread, unaffordable costs on public funds sourced by debt. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hotel staff in Devon (well the part where I live anyway) are in the main paid the minimum wage of £5.93 (over 21).
If the Irish pay over 9 Euros an hour for hotel workers then why is it that there are so many Irish hotel workers in England....are they mad?, stay at home and earn more!
On the subject of the Irish minimum wage, why has the British government been subsidising a 9 Euro an hour minimum wage in Eire by bailing out the Irish economy?
Our minimum wage is £3 an hour less than the Irish rate....but we can still lend them money?
Beggars belief!"
I don't know to the first question, the second question or the third.
Interesting factoid related to the bailout:
The average real return (real capital gain) on private housing over a period of 1 century, 1900 - 2000 in America is 23%. (In his book Irrational Exuberance, Robert Shiller determined that in the 100 years between 1900 and 2000, home prices in the U.S. increased by an average of about 3.4% per year. These figures have not been adjusted for inflation. If they had, home prices would have outpaced inflation by only the slimmest of margins.)
So; Irish people thinking their 2nd home would be a decent 'investment' were idiots. It's just that simple.
The first thing you're supposed to do when making an investment, after determining your risk taking ability, is to determine the average rate of return from different asset classes. If you don't do this, I'm terribly afraid it makes you a fucking idiot. So; you won't catch me defending the appalling decisions of the Irish people or their even more moronic government. |
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The EU is so fixated with enlargement that they have wooed countries like Greece into the fold, have pushed them into joining the Euro....even though it was as obvious as a boil on your arse that they haven't....and never have had an economy that can survive a european wide recession and banking crisis. |
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"Hotel staff in Devon (well the part where I live anyway) are in the main paid the minimum wage of £5.93 (over 21).
If the Irish pay over 9 Euros an hour for hotel workers then why is it that there are so many Irish hotel workers in England....are they mad?, stay at home and earn more!
On the subject of the Irish minimum wage, why has the British government been subsidising a 9 Euro an hour minimum wage in Eire by bailing out the Irish economy?
Our minimum wage is £3 an hour less than the Irish rate....but we can still lend them money?
Beggars belief!"
You're beginning to ask the correct questions and understand.
Over the last 12 months as details of Irelands problems became clear, a number of surprising "facts" or data if you prefer emerged. Such as :
the mimimum wage of around 9euros an hour
unemployment benefit starting at 194 euros a week
income tax negligible on earnings below 25,000 euros
overall income tax rates effectively around 4% on all earners.
See the common theme? People, societies living beyond their means on other peoples money often borrowed?
Another interesting take on Ireland, figures quoed from BBC news items.
The Irish Toiseach  had increased his salary from 210,000 euros per annum to 290,000. Because of the financial difficulties he reduced it ( with other public workers ) by 15%, to around 232,000 euros per annum. WOW such genorosity, still some 10% higher than previosuly. For huge failure at that.
The real question that has to be asked is why do the European politicians operate Europe this way. It certainly isn't ecomnomics. Nor is it in the interests of the general population.
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"The EU is so fixated with enlargement that they have wooed countries like Greece into the fold, have pushed them into joining the Euro....even though it was as obvious as a boil on your arse that they haven't....and never have had an economy that can survive a european wide recession and banking crisis."
More power, and assets, for the few. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
Mushroom that would be Wisconsin... But the case with wisconsin was that they had a defecit of zero...
However there are 2 differences in that case
1) the first thing the republican governor and the state assembly did when they got in was to give their business backers a tax cut to the tune of 1.8 billion dollars
2) they then said they had a 1.8 billion dollar hole in the budget, and they then went after the public sector unions siting examples like the above...
The unions actually in the end agreed to most of what they proposed I.e paying more into pensions.. That wasn't enough for gov Scott walker and proposed stripping union collective bargaining rights... And eventually got it thru! But the move is so unpopular that members of the assembly that pushed it thru are likely to be recalled....
American politics there! |
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"Mushroom that would be Wisconsin... But the case with wisconsin was that they had a defecit of zero...
However there are 2 differences in that case
1) the first thing the republican governor and the state assembly did when they got in was to give their business backers a tax cut to the tune of 1.8 billion dollars
2) they then said they had a 1.8 billion dollar hole in the budget, and they then went after the public sector unions siting examples like the above...
The unions actually in the end agreed to most of what they proposed I.e paying more into pensions.. That wasn't enough for gov Scott walker and proposed stripping union collective bargaining rights... And eventually got it thru! But the move is so unpopular that members of the assembly that pushed it thru are likely to be recalled....
American politics there!"
Yeah, you've now reminded me that the gist of the article did point out it was a ruse to strip Unions of collective bargaining powers/rights. The figures i recall were around 235m public debt spiralling to 2,500m.
That said, and yer correct on the politics of it all, how can anyone, let alone the "average person, or taxpayer" support salaries of bus drivers on £93,000 per year, with pensions to match?
It is unsustainable.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The real story is not actually about Greece, it's about World financial systems and most of all about confidence. Greece is already insolvent!
Other countries have been insolvent and been allowed to default such as Brazil and some African countries, it happens. Even Greece has defaulted in the past.
The issue here is the Euro. The Markets who have pumped money into Greece are not betting on Greece, they are betting on the Euro. They gamble (and with good reason) that the powerhouses of northern Europe will not let the Euro fail. They know that a failure of the Euro and the devastating effect that would have on World investor confidence and therefore the world economy would probably dwarf the cost of bailing out Greece.
Think bank crisis multiplied.
I believe a deal would have been done to bail out Greece whether todays vote was won or lost.
If anyone here believes that we in the UK would be 'insulated' from a Euro crash, your living in a dream bubble that will quickly pop.
Look what happened to us when a relatively small bank, Lehmans, was allowed to go bump!
The pressure being placed on Greece now is because the Eurozone realises without these austerity measure now it will simply have to keep subsidising Greece in the future.
Greece is like a 1970's UK nationalised industry which is in need of some Thatcherite style of privatisation! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hotel staff in Devon (well the part where I live anyway) are in the main paid the minimum wage of £5.93 (over 21).
If the Irish pay over 9 Euros an hour for hotel workers then why is it that there are so many Irish hotel workers in England....are they mad?, stay at home and earn more!
On the subject of the Irish minimum wage, why has the British government been subsidising a 9 Euro an hour minimum wage in Eire by bailing out the Irish economy?
Our minimum wage is £3 an hour less than the Irish rate....but we can still lend them money?
Beggars belief!
You're beginning to ask the correct questions and understand.
Over the last 12 months as details of Irelands problems became clear, a number of surprising "facts" or data if you prefer emerged. Such as :
the mimimum wage of around 9euros an hour
"
Wikipedia is enlightening here:
Ireland has the second highest minimum wage in the EU, after Luxembourg.[26]
However, Ireland's minimum wage prior to the €1 cut in the 2011 budget, was only fifth highest of eight EU countries surveyed for the British Low-Pay Commission Report in 2010, with the UK, Netherlands, France and Belgium all listed as having higher minimum wage rates when OECD Comparative Price Levels are taken into account.
So...! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The EU is so fixated with enlargement that they have wooed countries like Greece into the fold, have pushed them into joining the Euro....even though it was as obvious as a boil on your arse that they haven't....and never have had an economy that can survive a european wide recession and banking crisis."
Spot on there Jane. Brussels was so obscured with launching the Euro that the models set in place for joining it were recklessly brushed aside. It cannot be a coincidence that successive Chancellors over here were determined not to take us into it, and it was a very large part of why I voted Tory at the last election (let's not get into that one on this thread, we've done it to death lol).
I don't know too much about the Irish situation or why there are so many over here and not in Ireland if the minimum wage is much higher than here, I can only assume that the cost of living must be much higher in Ireland too. We discussed the minimum wage a few weeks ago and even though I do support it as it does prevent unscrupulous bosses from exploiting their workforce in the main, it does have it's negative side. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"........
Look what happened to us when a relatively small bank, Lehmans, was allowed to go bump!
............. "
The problem with Lehman Brothers stemmed not from its size but the fact it failed at all. |
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