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Self employed
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" Some do, some don't. | |||
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" much better than? | |||
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"If you're employed, you probably won't be able to see it "Or perhaps you've a case of the Dunning-Kruger effect yourself? | |||
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I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations. | |||
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"If you're employed, you probably won't be able to see it
Or perhaps you've a case of the Dunning-Kruger effect yourself? " | |||
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"I'm self-employed and I choose that lifestyle so I can spin less plates, have a better quality of life, more time for my family and friends and generally have more balance."  | |||
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"If you're employed, you probably won't be able to see it
Or perhaps you've a case of the Dunning-Kruger effect yourself? "That's one of the best burns I've witnessed. Kudos. | |||
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"If you're employed, you probably won't be able to see it
Or perhaps you've a case of the Dunning-Kruger effect yourself?
That's one of the best burns I've witnessed. Kudos. " | |||
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations. "That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work. | |||
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"One may argue that they have to? Salaried folk will be paid regardless of how much or little work they do (although not indefinitely if they do too little!). Self-employed will need to complete jobs quickly and efficiently to ensure availability for the next job. I never worked so hard in my life as during the few years I ran my own business." Top post | |||
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
"I spent more time working when I was self employed to the detriment of family life. I actually have to be more on the ball and juggle more things now being employed as I'm at home less. But at least I have clearly defined working hours and can shut off....and have paid holiday with the family | |||
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"One may argue that they have to? Salaried folk will be paid regardless of how much or little work they do (although not indefinitely if they do too little!). Self-employed will need to complete jobs quickly and efficiently to ensure availability for the next job. I never worked so hard in my life as during the few years I ran my own business. Top post "Because it agrees with your perspective? | |||
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" You;re self employed arent you? | |||
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"One may argue that they have to? Salaried folk will be paid regardless of how much or little work they do (although not indefinitely if they do too little!). Self-employed will need to complete jobs quickly and efficiently to ensure availability for the next job. I never worked so hard in my life as during the few years I ran my own business. Top post
Because it agrees with your perspective?"Don't be so cynical! Let's all massage OP's ego, as we're supposed to!  | |||
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
I spent more time working when I was self employed to the detriment of family life. I actually have to be more on the ball and juggle more things now being employed as I'm at home less. But at least I have clearly defined working hours and can shut off....and have paid holiday with the family "Ah, paid holidays... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
"Yes, you can spend quite a bit of time quoting. But as time goes by, you get wiser. We give an overall price, if a customer wants a breakdown, that's chargeable. One customer wanted discount, we said, "No problem". Their face lit up. Then we said, "Ring the council and whatever you get knocked off our council tax, we'll deduct off the invoice". The penny dropped with them. | |||
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"Self Employed people tend to NEED to motivate themselves a lot more. I was a lot more efficient when I worked for my old company. These days, now I'm my own boss, I can do what I want and tend to do exactly that. Including being on here when I shouldn't be." Some do, not all of us. Some of us are great at what we do and have it all covered. Some of us don't even login to Fab until the work is done. Some of us know how to get our priorities right | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
I spent more time working when I was self employed to the detriment of family life. I actually have to be more on the ball and juggle more things now being employed as I'm at home less. But at least I have clearly defined working hours and can shut off....and have paid holiday with the family "In the early years the boundaries between my personal and professional life were too blurred and indeed I spent too much time working and away from the family. However a couple of health crises put things in perspective and I shifted the emphasis to quality of life rather than quantity of work. I now value myself more, charge more, work less and love life more, laugh more and learn more as I have time for it. Also I'm fitter and healthier than I was 20 years ago! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
Yes, you can spend quite a bit of time quoting. But as time goes by, you get wiser. We give an overall price, if a customer wants a breakdown, that's chargeable.
One customer wanted discount, we said, "No problem". Their face lit up. Then we said, "Ring the council and whatever you get knocked off our council tax, we'll deduct off the invoice". The penny dropped with them."Not all self employed work is the same. It is a little amusing that you assume I don't know what I'm doing and that's why I'm spending time bidding for work.  | |||
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"I disagree. Although counterintuitive, one's efficiency and conscientiousness doesn't depend on how you're employed. " It is. I could have been a lot more efficient in my old job than I was if I was ALLOWED to utilize the shortcuts I knew existed.... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
I spent more time working when I was self employed to the detriment of family life. I actually have to be more on the ball and juggle more things now being employed as I'm at home less. But at least I have clearly defined working hours and can shut off....and have paid holiday with the family
Ah, paid holidays...
"Holidays? Whats one of those then? | |||
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"I disagree. Although counterintuitive, one's efficiency and conscientiousness doesn't depend on how you're employed. " | |||
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"One may argue that they have to? Salaried folk will be paid regardless of how much or little work they do (although not indefinitely if they do too little!). Self-employed will need to complete jobs quickly and efficiently to ensure availability for the next job. I never worked so hard in my life as during the few years I ran my own business. Top post
Because it agrees with your perspective?
Don't be so cynical! Let's all massage OP's ego, as we're supposed to! "Mea culpa! Mea culpa! Mea Maxima Culpa! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
I spent more time working when I was self employed to the detriment of family life. I actually have to be more on the ball and juggle more things now being employed as I'm at home less. But at least I have clearly defined working hours and can shut off....and have paid holiday with the family
In the early years the boundaries between my personal and professional life were too blurred and indeed I spent too much time working and away from the family. However a couple of health crises put things in perspective and I shifted the emphasis to quality of life rather than quantity of work. I now value myself more, charge more, work less and love life more, laugh more and learn more as I have time for it. Also I'm fitter and healthier than I was 20 years ago!"I have a similar view. As an employed person I learned a very hard lesson working 70 hour weeks. When I ended up in hospital, losing a pregnancy and having some complications after the speed with which I was sidelined was illuminating. We're all pretty expendable. | |||
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"-snip- Top post
Because it agrees with your perspective?
Don't be so cynical! Let's all massage OP's ego, as we're supposed to! "Eek. I've been misinterpreted again! I was attempting to suggest that people step up when their livelihood is more precarious rather than there being something inherently lazy about those in a more stable position. I imagine plenty of salaried people have the same work-ethic OP admires while plenty of self-employed people are lackadaisical. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
I spent more time working when I was self employed to the detriment of family life. I actually have to be more on the ball and juggle more things now being employed as I'm at home less. But at least I have clearly defined working hours and can shut off....and have paid holiday with the family
In the early years the boundaries between my personal and professional life were too blurred and indeed I spent too much time working and away from the family. However a couple of health crises put things in perspective and I shifted the emphasis to quality of life rather than quantity of work. I now value myself more, charge more, work less and love life more, laugh more and learn more as I have time for it. Also I'm fitter and healthier than I was 20 years ago!
I have a similar view. As an employed person I learned a very hard lesson working 70 hour weeks. When I ended up in hospital, losing a pregnancy and having some complications after the speed with which I was sidelined was illuminating. We're all pretty expendable.
"Oh yes. The graveyards are full of the indispensable too | |||
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"-snip- Top post
Because it agrees with your perspective?
Don't be so cynical! Let's all massage OP's ego, as we're supposed to!
Eek. I've been misinterpreted again!
I was attempting to suggest that people step up when their livelihood is more precarious rather than there being something inherently lazy about those in a more stable position.
I imagine plenty of salaried people have the same work-ethic OP admires while plenty of self-employed people are lackadaisical."No, your point was clear! Love how it got pulled over though!! | |||
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
I spent more time working when I was self employed to the detriment of family life. I actually have to be more on the ball and juggle more things now being employed as I'm at home less. But at least I have clearly defined working hours and can shut off....and have paid holiday with the family
Ah, paid holidays...
Holidays?
Whats one of those then?"I've rediscovered them after 5 years they're great! ....and sick pay! ....and I'm still able to function as a member of society and do a decent job when at work. Who would have thought the lowly employed could achieve so much? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"-snip- Top post
Because it agrees with your perspective?
Don't be so cynical! Let's all massage OP's ego, as we're supposed to!
Eek. I've been misinterpreted again!
I was attempting to suggest that people step up when their livelihood is more precarious rather than there being something inherently lazy about those in a more stable position.
I imagine plenty of salaried people have the same work-ethic OP admires while plenty of self-employed people are lackadaisical."I don't think you have been misinterpreted, the reaction is to the OPs top post comment. I happen to agree with the vast majority of what you've said but know plenty that survive as self-employed for different reasons than the OP has suggested... | |||
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
I spent more time working when I was self employed to the detriment of family life. I actually have to be more on the ball and juggle more things now being employed as I'm at home less. But at least I have clearly defined working hours and can shut off....and have paid holiday with the family
Ah, paid holidays...
Holidays?
Whats one of those then?
I've rediscovered them after 5 years they're great! ....and sick pay! ....and I'm still able to function as a member of society and do a decent job when at work. Who would have thought the lowly employed could achieve so much? "It's part of the job, really - you don't get livestock if you want to go away. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"-snip- Top post
Because it agrees with your perspective?
Don't be so cynical! Let's all massage OP's ego, as we're supposed to!
Eek. I've been misinterpreted again!
I was attempting to suggest that people step up when their livelihood is more precarious rather than there being something inherently lazy about those in a more stable position.
I imagine plenty of salaried people have the same work-ethic OP admires while plenty of self-employed people are lackadaisical.
I don't think you have been misinterpreted, the reaction is to the OPs top post comment. I happen to agree with the vast majority of what you've said but know plenty that survive as self-employed for different reasons than the OP has suggested..."Those forced into being self-employment because the model their company takes is to keep everyone as 'self employed' and working just for them. Delivery drivers now being charged if they call in sick as 'self employed'. | |||
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"I disagree. Although counterintuitive, one's efficiency and conscientiousness doesn't depend on how you're employed. It is. I could have been a lot more efficient in my old job than I was if I was ALLOWED to utilize the shortcuts I knew existed...." Good point, but I was referring to one's attitude. | |||
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
I spent more time working when I was self employed to the detriment of family life. I actually have to be more on the ball and juggle more things now being employed as I'm at home less. But at least I have clearly defined working hours and can shut off....and have paid holiday with the family
Ah, paid holidays...
Holidays?
Whats one of those then?
I've rediscovered them after 5 years they're great! ....and sick pay! ....and I'm still able to function as a member of society and do a decent job when at work. Who would have thought the lowly employed could achieve so much?
It's part of the job, really - you don't get livestock if you want to go away. "It's a bit like having kids really. ...you don't have them if you want to be able to afford to go away. ...during school holidays! | |||
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"-snip- Top post
Because it agrees with your perspective?
Don't be so cynical! Let's all massage OP's ego, as we're supposed to!
Eek. I've been misinterpreted again!
I was attempting to suggest that people step up when their livelihood is more precarious rather than there being something inherently lazy about those in a more stable position.
I imagine plenty of salaried people have the same work-ethic OP admires while plenty of self-employed people are lackadaisical.
I don't think you have been misinterpreted, the reaction is to the OPs top post comment. I happen to agree with the vast majority of what you've said but know plenty that survive as self-employed for different reasons than the OP has suggested...
Those forced into being self-employment because the model their company takes is to keep everyone as 'self employed' and working just for them. Delivery drivers now being charged if they call in sick as 'self employed'. "That stuff boils my blood, but unethical organisations is another subject entirely | |||
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"I disagree. Although counterintuitive, one's efficiency and conscientiousness doesn't depend on how you're employed. It is. I could have been a lot more efficient in my old job than I was if I was ALLOWED to utilize the shortcuts I knew existed.... Good point, but I was referring to one's attitude." I can take my foot off the gas a lot more now I'm my own boss, I couldn't when I was employed and had paperwork coming out of my arse and piled up on my desk. That's not an attitude factor. That's a method of employment factor... So it absolutely does make a difference. Imo. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
I spent more time working when I was self employed to the detriment of family life. I actually have to be more on the ball and juggle more things now being employed as I'm at home less. But at least I have clearly defined working hours and can shut off....and have paid holiday with the family
Ah, paid holidays...
Holidays?
Whats one of those then?
I've rediscovered them after 5 years they're great! ....and sick pay! ....and I'm still able to function as a member of society and do a decent job when at work. Who would have thought the lowly employed could achieve so much?
It's part of the job, really - you don't get livestock if you want to go away.
It's a bit like having kids really. ...you don't have them if you want to be able to afford to go away. ...during school holidays! "This is true - but I find that I can offer my daughter experiences other 8 year olds might not get, like looking after animals, how to use a shotgun and I'm giving her driving lessons. | |||
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"I disagree. Although counterintuitive, one's efficiency and conscientiousness doesn't depend on how you're employed. It is. I could have been a lot more efficient in my old job than I was if I was ALLOWED to utilize the shortcuts I knew existed.... Good point, but I was referring to one's attitude. I can take my foot off the gas a lot more now I'm my own boss, I couldn't when I was employed and had paperwork coming out of my arse and piled up on my desk. That's not an attitude factor. That's a method of employment factor... So it absolutely does make a difference. Imo." But that's not agreeing with the OP's point which is indicating that people who are self employed have better skills ... which is utter bs. | |||
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" This is true - but I find that I can offer my daughter experiences other 8 year olds might not get, like looking after animals, how to use a shotgun and I'm giving her driving lessons. " 8 year old daughter - how to use a shotgun.  | |||
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" But that's not agreeing with the OP's point which is indicating that people who are self employed have better skills ... which is utter bs." I'm not entirely sure what the OP's point actually is. | |||
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" I can take my foot off the gas a lot more now I'm my own boss, I couldn't when I was employed and had paperwork coming out of my arse and piled up on my desk. That's not an attitude factor. That's a method of employment factor... So it absolutely does make a difference. Imo." True, but I meant (though didn't convey clearly) that's a workplace constraint (as you note), and while there'll be plenty that will interfere with, when left to one's own devices attitude tends to be the limiting factor. | |||
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" I can take my foot off the gas a lot more now I'm my own boss, I couldn't when I was employed and had paperwork coming out of my arse and piled up on my desk. That's not an attitude factor. That's a method of employment factor... So it absolutely does make a difference. Imo. True, but I meant (though didn't convey clearly) that's a workplace constraint (as you note), and while there'll be plenty that will interfere with, when left to one's own devices attitude tends to be the limiting factor. " | |||
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" This is true - but I find that I can offer my daughter experiences other 8 year olds might not get, like looking after animals, how to use a shotgun and I'm giving her driving lessons. 8 year old daughter - how to use a shotgun. "It's only a .410, and shes quite tall which means that she can get it into her shoulder. | |||
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" This is true - but I find that I can offer my daughter experiences other 8 year olds might not get, like looking after animals, how to use a shotgun and I'm giving her driving lessons. 8 year old daughter - how to use a shotgun.
It's only a .410, and shes quite tall which means that she can get it into her shoulder. "**bang** Daddy?...
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" But that's not agreeing with the OP's point which is indicating that people who are self employed have better skills ... which is utter bs. I'm not entirely sure what the OP's point actually is. "I think it's "we're better than everyone else and we do things the right way and everyone else is wrong because you are all immature and lack decency. " that's what comes across when you use the green arrow anyway. | |||
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations. " | |||
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" But that's not agreeing with the OP's point which is indicating that people who are self employed have better skills ... which is utter bs. I'm not entirely sure what the OP's point actually is. "I think it was meant as a put down similar to the messaging thread | |||
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
Yes, you can spend quite a bit of time quoting. But as time goes by, you get wiser. We give an overall price, if a customer wants a breakdown, that's chargeable.
One customer wanted discount, we said, "No problem". Their face lit up. Then we said, "Ring the council and whatever you get knocked off our council tax, we'll deduct off the invoice". The penny dropped with them." | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" But that's not agreeing with the OP's point which is indicating that people who are self employed have better skills ... which is utter bs. I'm not entirely sure what the OP's point actually is.
I think it's "we're better than everyone else and we do things the right way and everyone else is wrong because you are all immature and lack decency. " that's what comes across when you use the green arrow anyway. " | |||
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" This is true - but I find that I can offer my daughter experiences other 8 year olds might not get, like looking after animals, how to use a shotgun and I'm giving her driving lessons. 8 year old daughter - how to use a shotgun.
It's only a .410, and shes quite tall which means that she can get it into her shoulder.
**bang**
Daddy?...
"Hahaha... Rule number one of gun safety is never point a gun at anybody, ever. That and I usually have to load it for her as the bolt can be a bit stiff means that I am safely behind her. | |||
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" Conscientiousness towards work, and the hard work, organised, ethic, is not exclusive to everyone, self employed. I know plenty of people, who are employed and have a commendable work ethic, that exceeds many whom are self employed. I've always been self employed, via companies and as an individual. I know the score. I'll give you a tip. Don't "bag" people out, just because you think you're work ethic is exceptional, OP. | |||
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" This is true - but I find that I can offer my daughter experiences other 8 year olds might not get, like looking after animals, how to use a shotgun and I'm giving her driving lessons. 8 year old daughter - how to use a shotgun.
It's only a .410, and shes quite tall which means that she can get it into her shoulder.
**bang**
Daddy?...
Hahaha...
Rule number one of gun safety is never point a gun at anybody, ever.
That and I usually have to load it for her as the bolt can be a bit stiff means that I am safely behind her. " Brrrrave. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" This is true - but I find that I can offer my daughter experiences other 8 year olds might not get, like looking after animals, how to use a shotgun and I'm giving her driving lessons. 8 year old daughter - how to use a shotgun.
It's only a .410, and shes quite tall which means that she can get it into her shoulder.
**bang**
Daddy?...
Hahaha...
Rule number one of gun safety is never point a gun at anybody, ever.
That and I usually have to load it for her as the bolt can be a bit stiff means that I am safely behind her.
Brrrrave. "I didn't choose the hick life, the hick life chose me. | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" This is true - but I find that I can offer my daughter experiences other 8 year olds might not get, like looking after animals, how to use a shotgun and I'm giving her driving lessons. 8 year old daughter - how to use a shotgun.
It's only a .410, and shes quite tall which means that she can get it into her shoulder.
**bang**
Daddy?...
Hahaha...
Rule number one of gun safety is never point a gun at anybody, ever.
That and I usually have to load it for her as the bolt can be a bit stiff means that I am safely behind her.
Brrrrave.
I didn't choose the hick life, the hick life chose me. "  | |||
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" Can't say I have but you appear to be sure enough of these things OP, it's good to dream big, want more, aim high...it's a lot better when you remain humble & stay away from the high horse. After all, no one likes a wanker do they | |||
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"One may argue that they have to? Salaried folk will be paid regardless of how much or little work they do (although not indefinitely if they do too little!). Self-employed will need to complete jobs quickly and efficiently to ensure availability for the next job. I never worked so hard in my life as during the few years I ran my own business." If you're being paid by the hour you sure as shit aint gonna be doing it fast | |||
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"Nope, some of the self-employed people I know are the most disorganised people I know " Well considering your in cloud cuckoo land I'm not surprised!! | |||
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"If you're employed, you probably won't be able to see it
Or perhaps you've a case of the Dunning-Kruger effect yourself? " | |||
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"All of them? Of course, I am one of those that can but I know others I wouldn't give any work because they're all flash and spin with no substance or work ethic. " This totally
Working as a consultant previously if I didn't deliver I didn't get paid. | |||
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" If that's your attitude OP you sound like a shit employee to be honest, maybe you are simply self employed because no one would give you a job? | |||
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" Nah.  | |||
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" Yeah ur absolutely right | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why" In all fairness, I have no previous experience of the OP but it's such a unproven and pointless statement to make. Good for the OP for thinking they have a good work ethic but certainly doesn't just apply to every contractor. | |||
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"If you're employed, you probably won't be able to see it
Or perhaps you've a case of the Dunning-Kruger effect yourself?
That's one of the best burns I've witnessed. Kudos. "Yeah this is a solid burn. I'd apply some water to the effected area immediately op | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why In all fairness, I have no previous experience of the OP but it's such a unproven and pointless statement to make. Good for the OP for thinking they have a good work ethic but certainly doesn't just apply to every contractor." No what I don't like the pack mentality on here....and no I do not agree with the op on this one seems I have had numerous s/earphone jobs and the same employed.....but whatching people who I would not have expected to do op bashing jumping on the bandwagon saddens me  | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why" To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective. | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why In all fairness, I have no previous experience of the OP but it's such a unproven and pointless statement to make. Good for the OP for thinking they have a good work ethic but certainly doesn't just apply to every contractor. No what I don't like the pack mentality on here....and no I do not agree with the op on this one seems I have had numerous s/earphone jobs and the same employed.....but whatching people who I would not have expected to do op bashing jumping on the bandwagon saddens me "Pack mentality to one can be a number of people disagreeing to another. | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective. "
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X"Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be. | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X"PS I'm knackered and off to bed now....good night x | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X
Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be. "Employed people are far more secure than self employed. After 2 years with a company its fucking hard work to fire somone. | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X
Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be.
Employed people are far more secure than self employed.
After 2 years with a company its fucking hard work to fire somone.
"That's not a counter to the point I was making. I'm not stating that self-employment is secure. | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X
Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be.
Employed people are far more secure than self employed.
After 2 years with a company its fucking hard work to fire somone.
That's not a counter to the point I was making. I'm not stating that self-employment is secure. "Its a counter to your point that employment is "insecure". Otherwise thats kind of just an irrelevant comment to make | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X
Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be.
Employed people are far more secure than self employed.
After 2 years with a company its fucking hard work to fire somone.
That's not a counter to the point I was making. I'm not stating that self-employment is secure.
Its a counter to your point that employment is "insecure".
Otherwise thats kind of just an irrelevant comment to make
"I stated many people are in low waged and insecure employment i.e. work that's under the living wage and/or contracts such as zero-hours (insecure work, it's a term) or as you state in fact anyone under 2yrs with company -- I did not state that being employed is insecure (as a total generalisation) or by implication (as a total generalisation) that self employment was secure. So no, it wasn't! | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X
Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be.
Employed people are far more secure than self employed.
After 2 years with a company its fucking hard work to fire somone.
That's not a counter to the point I was making. I'm not stating that self-employment is secure.
Its a counter to your point that employment is "insecure".
Otherwise thats kind of just an irrelevant comment to make
I stated many people are in low waged and insecure employment i.e. work that's under the living wage and/or contracts such as zero-hours (insecure work, it's a term) or as you state in fact anyone under 2yrs with company -- I did not state that being employed is insecure (as a total generalisation) or by implication (as a total generalisation) that self employment was secure.
So no, it wasn't!"But thanks for your thoughts. | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X
Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be.
Employed people are far more secure than self employed.
After 2 years with a company its fucking hard work to fire somone.
That's not a counter to the point I was making. I'm not stating that self-employment is secure.
Its a counter to your point that employment is "insecure".
Otherwise thats kind of just an irrelevant comment to make
I stated many people are in low waged and insecure employment i.e. work that's under the living wage and/or contracts such as zero-hours (insecure work, it's a term) or as you state in fact anyone under 2yrs with company -- I did not state that being employed is insecure (as a total generalisation) or by implication (as a total generalisation) that self employment was secure.
So no, it wasn't!"Right. But it just a big non sequitur as it doesnt describe the majority of employment. And it has little to no bearing on the ops point. How odd it soul destroying four someone to ask if people find the self employed more competent (arguably this would kinda be a natural selection thing thats lacking in certain employment sectors ie public sector) You then go on to ask a rhetorical question about what the op thinks if the unemployed, which has zero relevance to anything and is just a strawman you csn use to beat them. Then after all your generalisations you slate them for generalising. Its nkt so much a coherent argument as you just using an apeal to emotion to slate the op because you disagree with them. | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X
Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be.
Employed people are far more secure than self employed.
After 2 years with a company its fucking hard work to fire somone.
That's not a counter to the point I was making. I'm not stating that self-employment is secure.
Its a counter to your point that employment is "insecure".
Otherwise thats kind of just an irrelevant comment to make
I stated many people are in low waged and insecure employment i.e. work that's under the living wage and/or contracts such as zero-hours (insecure work, it's a term) or as you state in fact anyone under 2yrs with company -- I did not state that being employed is insecure (as a total generalisation) or by implication (as a total generalisation) that self employment was secure.
So no, it wasn't!
Right. But it just a big non sequitur as it doesnt describe the majority of employment.
And it has little to no bearing on the ops point.
How odd it soul destroying four someone to ask if people find the self employed more competent (arguably this would kinda be a natural selection thing thats lacking in certain employment sectors ie public sector)
You then go on to ask a rhetorical question about what the op thinks if the unemployed, which has zero relevance to anything and is just a strawman you csn use to beat them.
Then after all your generalisations you slate them for generalising.
Its nkt so much a coherent argument as you just using an apeal to emotion to slate the op because you disagree with them."I seriously don't have the energy or inclination to engage when you're just trolling. Welcome to your opinions, as I am welcome to mine. | |||
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread . "Yes, yes it is! I'm starting to think this is a troll account. Ruby | |||
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" Plates? So a self employed waiter? | |||
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...my other half is self employed and the most disorganised person I know!
Now I'm retired he wants me to help organise him...yeah...right! | |||
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"Nope, some of the self-employed people I know are the most disorganised people I know " Yeap. | |||
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"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X
Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be.
Employed people are far more secure than self employed.
After 2 years with a company its fucking hard work to fire somone.
"And how many self employed people get fired? | |||
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"If you're employed, you probably won't be able to see it
Or perhaps you've a case of the Dunning-Kruger effect yourself?
That's one of the best burns I've witnessed. Kudos.
Yeah this is a solid burn. I'd apply some water to the effected area immediately op" | |||
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"Nope, some of the self-employed people I know are the most disorganised people I know Well considering your in cloud cuckoo land I'm not surprised!! " Of course that'll be it. How observant of you | |||
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"I'm self employed and probably the most disorganised person I know " Same here ... | |||
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" ...my other half is self employed and the most disorganised person I know!
Now I'm retired he wants me to help organise him...yeah...right!"I can relate to this | |||
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"I'm self employed and probably the most disorganised person I know Same here ... "Me too | |||
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"If you're employed, you probably won't be able to see it
Or perhaps you've a case of the Dunning-Kruger effect yourself?
That's one of the best burns I've witnessed. Kudos.
Yeah this is a solid burn. I'd apply some water to the effected area immediately op
"*affected... god damn it past me | |||
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S
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
Yes, you can spend quite a bit of time quoting. But as time goes by, you get wiser. We give an overall price, if a customer wants a breakdown, that's chargeable.
One customer wanted discount, we said, "No problem". Their face lit up. Then we said, "Ring the council and whatever you get knocked off our council tax, we'll deduct off the invoice". The penny dropped with them."While I don't know he nature of your work, bartering is not uncommon when quoting/tendering for work. You'd lose any chance of my custom with a smart arse dismissive comment like that | |||
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"Oh this is yet another look down at others thread
I've been both and I'm equally as organised in both situations.
That's not possible! By becoming self employed you are imbued with new wonder powers. Although, I think I got more actual work done when I was an employee as I didn't have to spend all my time bidding for work.
Yes, you can spend quite a bit of time quoting. But as time goes by, you get wiser. We give an overall price, if a customer wants a breakdown, that's chargeable.
One customer wanted discount, we said, "No problem". Their face lit up. Then we said, "Ring the council and whatever you get knocked off our council tax, we'll deduct off the invoice". The penny dropped with them.
While I don't know he nature of your work, bartering is not uncommon when quoting/tendering for work. You'd lose any chance of my custom with a smart arse dismissive comment like that"Odd isn't it? Self employed person who doesn't haggle..... | |||
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Great thread and very informative...
The quote below
Thank you for sharing your experience.
"I went self employed 17 years ago mainly because i got tired of working for dickheads. I thought it would mean a better quality of life though i've ended up working harder than ever but i know i'd never go back. The real advantage is in the flexibility it provides and not having to ask anyone's permission to take a day off. Yes, multiple plates are kept spinning, sometimes it's downright frantic and i love every minute of it." *coming back in later* Need to post my experiences in here!!  | |||
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"One may argue that they have to? Salaried folk will be paid regardless of how much or little work they do (although not indefinitely if they do too little!). Self-employed will need to complete jobs quickly and efficiently to ensure availability for the next job. I never worked so hard in my life as during the few years I ran my own business." Me too, I had a business and was employed. | |||
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" Judging from the way I used to get given accounts and invoices from clients many years ago... erm no... i disagree... given 3 black bags of invoices and receipts a week before tax returns and asked can I sort it...  not really on top of things x | |||
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also hard to get rid of you if you're shite at you're job as it takes quite some time.
When your self employed you only get paid on performance and they can get rid of you at a moments notice without giving any reason.
I'm self employed and very happy | |||
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"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
"I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do). | |||
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"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
"I've also not indicated which type of employment I have! | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have! "Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state. ""Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh. | |||
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"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh."As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid. | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid."The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system. So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid."I have 'descriptions' for that kind of commentary. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?"I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days. My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had. My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't."Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say. | |||
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"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say. "Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can. "You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun | |||
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"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun "Here is that Freddy-Krugers brother fs | |||
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"All of them? Of course, I am one of those that can but I know others I wouldn't give any work because they're all flash and spin with no substance or work ethic. " Spot on... | |||
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"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun "I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are. It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken. | |||
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"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken."I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that? "You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X
Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be.
Employed people are far more secure than self employed.
After 2 years with a company its fucking hard work to fire somone.
That's not a counter to the point I was making. I'm not stating that self-employment is secure.
Its a counter to your point that employment is "insecure".
Otherwise thats kind of just an irrelevant comment to make
I stated many people are in low waged and insecure employment i.e. work that's under the living wage and/or contracts such as zero-hours (insecure work, it's a term) or as you state in fact anyone under 2yrs with company -- I did not state that being employed is insecure (as a total generalisation) or by implication (as a total generalisation) that self employment was secure.
So no, it wasn't!
Right. But it just a big non sequitur as it doesnt describe the majority of employment.
And it has little to no bearing on the ops point.
How odd it soul destroying four someone to ask if people find the self employed more competent (arguably this would kinda be a natural selection thing thats lacking in certain employment sectors ie public sector)
You then go on to ask a rhetorical question about what the op thinks if the unemployed, which has zero relevance to anything and is just a strawman you csn use to beat them.
Then after all your generalisations you slate them for generalising.
Its nkt so much a coherent argument as you just using an apeal to emotion to slate the op because you disagree with them.
I seriously don't have the energy or inclination to engage when you're just trolling. Welcome to your opinions, as I am welcome to mine. "Its not trolling to point out you just made up a straw man argument to bash the op. In fact trolling would be what you are doing | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that? "My ref to DK, was more a parallel in that you appear constrained by solely your experience as the info you draw on, and are unable to think beyond that -- or realise that your experience may be vastly different to someone else's. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect."Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"OK I've had a run in in the past with the op.....but I've read the full tread,well almost and tbh it does not read well we're 99% of posters are on the attack from the word go. I know I won't be popular for saying this (probably never have been) but it's not a nice picture to view once the ball gets rolling.....and jumping from another thread from op to jump on this? Why To be honest, OP was rather judgemental in phrasing initially but I chose to simply and gently disagree at first. OP then makes another sweeping generalisation dismissing any differing opinions, I think that annoyed people and they've every right to express their annoyance (or the fact they disagree). And I'm not so sure people are on the attack from the word go but rather perhaps the defensive or counter-attack. If you post something controversial and intentionally so, you'll be answered by those that disagree. And at no point has OP tried to clarify that they meant anything different or engage with discussion of anyone that disagreed. But you are also entitled to your opinion and post too. Was just answering your why, from my perspective.
Fair point....but I did see the same on another thread of their's tonight and it doesn't look good when you see the op on a thread and just know it's going to be all but a public hanging. X
Ahhh, I've not been on the other thread. I was, however, not impressed with OP on this one. Which you may have gathered! Not least because many people in this country who are employed get up each day to earn their poverty in low waged and insecure employment and bashing generalisations like the OP made is soul destroying. And there are plenty of people unemployed right now, desperately trying to secure employment -- what does OP think of them. I just think that kind of bullshit needs calling out as generalised stereotypes are damaging however jokey or stupid the post was intended to be.
Employed people are far more secure than self employed.
After 2 years with a company its fucking hard work to fire somone.
That's not a counter to the point I was making. I'm not stating that self-employment is secure.
Its a counter to your point that employment is "insecure".
Otherwise thats kind of just an irrelevant comment to make
I stated many people are in low waged and insecure employment i.e. work that's under the living wage and/or contracts such as zero-hours (insecure work, it's a term) or as you state in fact anyone under 2yrs with company -- I did not state that being employed is insecure (as a total generalisation) or by implication (as a total generalisation) that self employment was secure.
So no, it wasn't!
Right. But it just a big non sequitur as it doesnt describe the majority of employment.
And it has little to no bearing on the ops point.
How odd it soul destroying four someone to ask if people find the self employed more competent (arguably this would kinda be a natural selection thing thats lacking in certain employment sectors ie public sector)
You then go on to ask a rhetorical question about what the op thinks if the unemployed, which has zero relevance to anything and is just a strawman you csn use to beat them.
Then after all your generalisations you slate them for generalising.
Its nkt so much a coherent argument as you just using an apeal to emotion to slate the op because you disagree with them.
I seriously don't have the energy or inclination to engage when you're just trolling. Welcome to your opinions, as I am welcome to mine.
Its not trolling to point out you just made up a straw man argument to bash the op.
In fact trolling would be what you are doing"Lol | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising? "I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I've also not indicated which type of employment I have! "Which type of employment do you have Estella? I am sure everyone in here would love to know now... Or is it top secret? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple."Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you. I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Which type of employment do you have Estella?
I am sure everyone in here would love to know now...
Or is it top secret? "I actually don't even think it is relevant given my viewpoint is that in reply to the OP's opening commentary that those who are self employed they find them to be more skilled (as they list those skills) and whether we agree, is that some are/some aren't. As I replied at top of thread. What I object to is polarised assumptions that are used to bash entire groups of people or belief that your experience should manifestly similarly for every other being. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Which type of employment do you have Estella?
I am sure everyone in here would love to know now...
Or is it top secret?
I actually don't even think it is relevant given my viewpoint is that in reply to the OP's opening commentary that those who are self employed they find them to be more skilled (as they list those skills) and whether we agree, is that some are/some aren't. As I replied at top of thread. What I object to is polarised assumptions that are used to bash entire groups of people or belief that your experience should manifestly similarly for every other being. "*manifest | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Which type of employment do you have Estella?
I am sure everyone in here would love to know now...
Or is it top secret?
I actually don't even think it is relevant given my viewpoint is that in reply to the OP's opening commentary that those who are self employed they find them to be more skilled (as they list those skills) and whether we agree, is that some are/some aren't. As I replied at top of thread. What I object to is polarised assumptions that are used to bash entire groups of people or belief that your experience should manifestly similarly for every other being.
*manifest"I get all that, but all you had to say was... It is top secret
Now I am going to have to play the guessing game ffs
You are a proofreader! No that can't be it, way too easy
Give us a clue please...
This is bloody hard work | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation. "Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising). I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Which type of employment do you have Estella?
I am sure everyone in here would love to know now...
Or is it top secret?
I actually don't even think it is relevant given my viewpoint is that in reply to the OP's opening commentary that those who are self employed they find them to be more skilled (as they list those skills) and whether we agree, is that some are/some aren't. As I replied at top of thread. What I object to is polarised assumptions that are used to bash entire groups of people or belief that your experience should manifestly similarly for every other being.
*manifest
I get all that, but all you had to say was...
It is top secret
Now I am going to have to play the guessing game ffs
You are a proofreader! No that can't be it, way too easy
Give us a clue please...
This is bloody hard work "It's top secret. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
"It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And we reach the good ol "only reason you succeed is privilege" line of argument." Have you actually got a reply post to the OP? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And we reach the good ol "only reason you succeed is privilege" line of argument. Have you actually got a reply post to the OP? " Or am I hurting your cis male fragility by having a discussion with someone else? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive. "The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that. I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter."Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain? And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm* | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter.
Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain?
And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm*"I just wanted to make people scroll further. I have no opinion really | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter.
Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain?
And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm*"How is this an issue of ethnicity? The same applies to everyone regardless of race. I don't think being a wasp has had an impact but then if it is, as you imply,an 'invisible privelege' how could i be aware of it. To reiterate i am where and who i am through sheer hard work and determination, are you suggesting that i am simply lucky. That is narrow minded and over simplistic. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter.
Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain?
And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm*
How is this an issue of ethnicity? The same applies to everyone regardless of race. I don't think being a wasp has had an impact but then if it is, as you imply,an 'invisible privelege' how could i be aware of it. To reiterate i am where and who i am through sheer hard work and determination, are you suggesting that i am simply lucky. That is narrow minded and over simplistic."Nope, I'm only challenging your perception that there's only one factor at play -- the individual's effort and choice. I'm providing alternatives -- to help you see the possibility that other things can be at play then your view that has read "unemployed benefit clarinets are simply not pushing themselves hard enough" (I'm paraphrasing that, I warrant). I pointed out potential privilege you enjoy as you answered saying the only invisible privilege you enjoy is poverty. I'm sorry that my failure to agree with your polarised opinion means you feel I have a polarised opinion...I quite simply don't. My original post reply says yes and no to the OP's generalisation, and my responses to you are simply countering yours. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Only on fab a thread abt being self employd can turn into a fab argument
"But it wasn't simply a post about being self-employed now was it.... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter.
Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain?
And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm*
How is this an issue of ethnicity? The same applies to everyone regardless of race. I don't think being a wasp has had an impact but then if it is, as you imply,an 'invisible privelege' how could i be aware of it. To reiterate i am where and who i am through sheer hard work and determination, are you suggesting that i am simply lucky. That is narrow minded and over simplistic.
Nope, I'm only challenging your perception that there's only one factor at play -- the individual's effort and choice. I'm providing alternatives -- to help you see the possibility that other things can be at play then your view that has read "unemployed benefit clarinets are simply not pushing themselves hard enough" (I'm paraphrasing that, I warrant). I pointed out potential privilege you enjoy as you answered saying the only invisible privilege you enjoy is poverty. I'm sorry that my failure to agree with your polarised opinion means you feel I have a polarised opinion...I quite simply don't. My original post reply says yes and no to the OP's generalisation, and my responses to you are simply countering yours. "Bwahahaha **claimants (Not clarinets!!) | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Only on fab a thread abt being self employd can turn into a fab argument
But it wasn't simply a post about being self-employed now was it.... "So what was it about then ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Only on fab a thread abt being self employd can turn into a fab argument
But it wasn't simply a post about being self-employed now was it....
So what was it about then ? "Whoooossssh | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Only on fab a thread abt being self employd can turn into a fab argument
But it wasn't simply a post about being self-employed now was it....
So what was it about then ?
Whoooossssh"Hahahahahaha mwah mwah mwah | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Only on fab a thread abt being self employd can turn into a fab argument
But it wasn't simply a post about being self-employed now was it....
So what was it about then ?
Whoooossssh
Hahahahahaha mwah mwah mwah " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Only on fab a thread abt being self employd can turn into a fab argument
But it wasn't simply a post about being self-employed now was it....
So what was it about then ?
Whoooossssh"Oh! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter.
Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain?
And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm*
How is this an issue of ethnicity? The same applies to everyone regardless of race. I don't think being a wasp has had an impact but then if it is, as you imply,an 'invisible privelege' how could i be aware of it. To reiterate i am where and who i am through sheer hard work and determination, are you suggesting that i am simply lucky. That is narrow minded and over simplistic.
Nope, I'm only challenging your perception that there's only one factor at play -- the individual's effort and choice. I'm providing alternatives -- to help you see the possibility that other things can be at play then your view that has read "unemployed benefit clarinets are simply not pushing themselves hard enough" (I'm paraphrasing that, I warrant). I pointed out potential privilege you enjoy as you answered saying the only invisible privilege you enjoy is poverty. I'm sorry that my failure to agree with your polarised opinion means you feel I have a polarised opinion...I quite simply don't. My original post reply says yes and no to the OP's generalisation, and my responses to you are simply countering yours.
Bwahahaha **claimants
(Not clarinets!!) "There are other factors at play, i am stating that none cannot be overcome. There are plenty of people from worse backgrounds than myself who have been much more successful than i have, is that through privelege? As for the complaints of the unemployed they are well documented. I know university graduates who can't find work yet they think having a degree makes them physically unable to stack shelves at the local supermarket. No one seems to be prepared to start at the bottom any more, they think having a few qualifications means they can only do supervisory/managerial roles. A change of mindset is needed here. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter.
Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain?
And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm*"Have you tried being a "cis white male" before you start ranting how privileged we are? We have pretty much zero targeted support. There are no quotas, drives or recruitment campaign targets aimed at us. We are the least supported geoup in society when it comes to medical and mental health care and this is reflected in the fact that the thing most likley to kill us is suicide. Your a woman every single university, collage and company in the very high paying STEM feild is fighting to even get a CV from you. There are targeted recruitments, bursaries and scholarships all aimed at everyone but cis white males. But he had it easy because he's a cis white male.... Sorry it just doesnt wash any more | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter.
Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain?
And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm*
How is this an issue of ethnicity? The same applies to everyone regardless of race. I don't think being a wasp has had an impact but then if it is, as you imply,an 'invisible privelege' how could i be aware of it. To reiterate i am where and who i am through sheer hard work and determination, are you suggesting that i am simply lucky. That is narrow minded and over simplistic.
Nope, I'm only challenging your perception that there's only one factor at play -- the individual's effort and choice. I'm providing alternatives -- to help you see the possibility that other things can be at play then your view that has read "unemployed benefit clarinets are simply not pushing themselves hard enough" (I'm paraphrasing that, I warrant). I pointed out potential privilege you enjoy as you answered saying the only invisible privilege you enjoy is poverty. I'm sorry that my failure to agree with your polarised opinion means you feel I have a polarised opinion...I quite simply don't. My original post reply says yes and no to the OP's generalisation, and my responses to you are simply countering yours.
Bwahahaha **claimants
(Not clarinets!!)
There are other factors at play, i am stating that none cannot be overcome. There are plenty of people from worse backgrounds than myself who have been much more successful than i have, is that through privelege?
As for the complaints of the unemployed they are well documented. I know university graduates who can't find work yet they think having a degree makes them physically unable to stack shelves at the local supermarket. No one seems to be prepared to start at the bottom any more, they think having a few qualifications means they can only do supervisory/managerial roles. A change of mindset is needed here."I reiterate I'm not negating the point you're making per se, I'm challenging the thought that an individual always has the autonomous power to do so. But then perhaps I've had more direct exposure than you have to those individuals which has broadened my understanding. Anyway, glad you've recalibrated the issue with your opening statement somewhat. And keep on keeping on. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter.
Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain?
And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm*
Have you tried being a "cis white male" before you start ranting how privileged we are?
We have pretty much zero targeted support.
There are no quotas, drives or recruitment campaign targets aimed at us.
We are the least supported geoup in society when it comes to medical and mental health care and this is reflected in the fact that the thing most likley to kill us is suicide.
Your a woman every single university, collage and company in the very high paying STEM feild is fighting to even get a CV from you.
There are targeted recruitments, bursaries and scholarships all aimed at everyone but cis white males.
But he had it easy because he's a cis white male....
Sorry it just doesnt wash any more"But your opinion on the thread OP is? And aside from that, your whining is boring me. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And we reach the good ol "only reason you succeed is privilege" line of argument. Have you actually got a reply post to the OP? Or am I hurting your cis male fragility by having a discussion with someone else? "I replied to the op in my very first post.
Oh full disclosure though i am both a PAYE employee and self employed so i dont really have a horse in this race.
You though seem very bitter about your circumstances and determined to blame them on everyone else | |||
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"any more But your opinion on the thread OP is? And aside from that, your whining is boring me. "It there right at the top of the thread... Do i have to read it for you or something at this point? | |||
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"And we reach the good ol "only reason you succeed is privilege" line of argument. Have you actually got a reply post to the OP? Or am I hurting your cis male fragility by having a discussion with someone else?
I replied to the op in my very first post.
Oh full disclosure though i am both a PAYE employee and self employed so i dont really have a horse in this race.
You though seem very bitter about your circumstances and determined to blame them on everyone else"Ahh so you did! Apologies -- you find all self emp that you've experienced slow etc...gotcha! Interesting that you've jumped to a conclusion about me too. How am I bitter about my circumstances? I'm not commenting on mine. In any way. And I'm so far from bitter, but perhaps you need to think that a woman disagreeing with you and bored by you is a vinegar-titted bitter sort? Ahhh you're funny. | |||
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"any more But your opinion on the thread OP is? And aside from that, your whining is boring me.
It there right at the top of the thread...
Do i have to read it for you or something at this point?"No I can just about read your comments although... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"And we reach the good ol "only reason you succeed is privilege" line of argument. Have you actually got a reply post to the OP? Or am I hurting your cis male fragility by having a discussion with someone else?
I replied to the op in my very first post.
Oh full disclosure though i am both a PAYE employee and self employed so i dont really have a horse in this race.
You though seem very bitter about your circumstances and determined to blame them on everyone else
Ahh so you did! Apologies -- you find all self emp that you've experienced slow etc...gotcha!
Interesting that you've jumped to a conclusion about me too. How am I bitter about my circumstances? I'm not commenting on mine. In any way.
And I'm so far from bitter, but perhaps you need to think that a woman disagreeing with you and bored by you is a vinegar-titted bitter sort? Ahhh you're funny. "Yeah i don't give a shit abour your gender or your skin colour so stop trying to make it about that its pathetic. And its because from the start youve used so manly logical falicies and bullshit to attack the op that it's clear you ahve an agender | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter.
Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain?
And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm*
Have you tried being a "cis white male" before you start ranting how privileged we are?
We have pretty much zero targeted support.
There are no quotas, drives or recruitment campaign targets aimed at us.
We are the least supported geoup in society when it comes to medical and mental health care and this is reflected in the fact that the thing most likley to kill us is suicide.
Your a woman every single university, collage and company in the very high paying STEM feild is fighting to even get a CV from you.
There are targeted recruitments, bursaries and scholarships all aimed at everyone but cis white males.
But he had it easy because he's a cis white male....
Sorry it just doesnt wash any more"I know it's those irritating experts again, and we are now living in a climate where we don't like to let REAL facts get in the way of those sexy new FAKE facts. However If you google the ONS (Office for National Statistics) UK Labour Market report you will find that thankfully things are still ok for us white guys. Unemployment in men by ethnic background - Black / African / Carribean / Black British 12% Mixed / multiple ethnic group 12% Bangladeshi 11% Pakistani 10% Other ethnic group 9% Indian 6% Chinese 6% Any other Asian 6% White 5% We win still!!! However, you might be right we don't want others catching up so let's keep with some of the structural discrimination we have and stop creating any additional opportunity for non white males*. * I acknowledge there are issues in our education system about some who fall in this group that needs to be addressed, but ranting about creating opportunities for others is not going to fix that. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Blimey! It kicked off in here... this has become a battle between self employed and employed. Love it
I don't think it has kicked off into a battle between self-employed and employed. I think the overwhelming majority have thought the OP's opening statement is being too generalised (and rude) and have confirmed that. Then people have shared experiences of being emp or self-emp. I certainly am not indicating (from my perspective) that one type of employment has a better skilled worker than the other. Just pointing out the silliness of believing a polarised view of the world like that, and furthermore how offensive that is. I think people's comments on their own experiences are perfectly valid (even OP's, if they left room for being disapproved by those whose opinions counter theirs which they don't appear to do).
I've also not indicated which type of employment I have!
Regardless of whether you are self employed or on PAYE and regardless of your skill level the basic fact is that you are employed. You're working hard to provide the best you can for yourself and your family, not bleeding the state.
"Bleeding the state"? Blimey, here's another offensively sweeping remark. Detaching myself from any potential to agree with your viewpoint immediately. Ugh.
As the welfare state is often descibed as haemorrhaging money i feel the rhetoric is valid.
The simple fact is there is not enough jobs to go around.....and the few that are around do not pay enough wages for people to come of the benefit system.
So what would you do with the hemorrhaging system when the majority is working but not earning enough to live on?
I grew up just outside Sheffield at the height of the miner's strike. All my family were either working in steel or coal or in jobs connected to it, unemployment was 22%. I saw my father brought to his knees being made redundant 4 times during my childhood. People don't know the meaning of social deprivation these days.
My working life started age 15 after Norman Tebbit famously told us all to get on our bikes and chose farming as a way of getting a far away from what my family was faced with as possible. I moved south age 19, in all my years i have never once been on the dole, i've done jobs that i hated, some i've loved, i've worked for as little as £2.27 an hour, started at 4am and finished at 7pm 6 or 7 days a week. There's work there for those that really want it, people just need to be flexible. If you're in employment that's poorly paid there's tax credits to be had.
My beef is with those that refuse to work, not those that can't.
Your personal experiences are valid. I don't counter or dismiss them. You did just however, with a sweeping statement discount any experience different to you which is so narrow minded. You don't know everyone's experiences, have some compassion man, realise the potential that your experience doesn't cover everyone's or give you all encompassing knowledge. You refine your comment now to saying your issue is with those that refuse to work. Well, I put it to you that there is a very, very small minority that "refuse" (and I'm not including anyone in this who is unable to work) -- and even then I'd want to try and unpick why they refuse before condemning them, but possibly in that situation I'd be frustrated with them. Your earlier comment however was generalised, offensive twaddle. You should do better than perpetuating such stupid myths of those who do need welfare support, and think about what you mean and the impact of what you say.
Opinion is based on experience, this is where i come from, this is what i've done. If i can do it anyone can.
You are entirely missing my point. But I'll just leave Dunning-Kruger with you too, and leave you down the small end of the funnel of life. Have fun
I have never thought of myself as superior to others in any way nor do i consider my abilities to be in any way higher than they actually are, they merely are as they are.
It is the fact that i don't consider myself to be special or unique that draws me to the aforementioned conclusions. In this you are very much mistaken.
I've not said you think you're superior, but you do appear to present that just because you have never taken unemployment benefit that others should be able to not do so. I say that's generalising. You honestly can't see that?
You mentioned Dunning-Kruger, that's exactly what that principle states. But then what do i know, i'm just a simple farm boy who'd rather be dead than on the dole and is prepared to take anything in order to avoid that prospect.
Are you able to understand the point I make re you generalising?
I understand that what appeared to be a generalisation has upset you and i apologise for that. However, i believe the point i was making remains valid. I am aware that people's experiences are different but i also believe that people are in control of their own destiny. My life experiences are nothing more than a result of my taking control, like i said, if i can do it anyone can. It's really quite simple.
Thank you. It didn't upset me, enraged but thank you. And I was ill-placed with the DK reference, as it didn't convey what I had intended to point out to you.
I hear what you are saying re your experiences but I do remain in disagreement - beyond the absolute situation of someone refusing to work, but there's so much more complexity than it being about someone just taking control for a lot of people. I'm really pleased to hear you've not been in a situation where your own efforts have been constrained, long may that continue. And I hope you understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work. (I am not on benefits myself in case you believe me to be personalising my objection to your (and it is) generalisation.
Of course i understand that not everyone receiving benefits is refusing work, but i also understand that there are many dubious reasons for refusing it. I am aware that there are many who are desperate for employment and many who are unable to work. Such people have my deepest sympathy (i don't mean to sound patronising).
I have not been in a situation where my own efforts have been constrained because i have never allowed that to happen. This is what i was referring to when i mentioned taking control. People just need to change their mindset. Everything i have and am is a result of hard work and determination even though i was too busy working to get a decent education. Anything is possible
It is good to see your expansion from your opening post. My response has been to that first "bleeding the state" commentary, which doesn't demonstrate the nuance (or some nuance) you are now confirming. You still appear to give the impression that absolutely everything is in an individual's control. Again, this may have been the construct that your life has taken -- I wonder what invisible privilege you have experienced and may be entirely incognisant of. I am not negating the 'power within' that individuals have and the strength of using it, but understand that there are also 'power to' constructs that hold people back. To simply say it's down to individual control is overly simplistic and naive.
The only invisible privilege i have experienced is poverty. We were poor, cliched i know, but i had to get all my clothing from a government funded clothes bank, and it was shit, itchy and all the same colour. Imagine that.
I hear the unemployed complain that all they want is for someone to give them a chance when they're not prepared to take chances themselves. There are two kinds of people in this world; those that use their past as a springboard for success and those that use their past as an excuse for their failure, i'm afraid i have no time for the latter.
Through what/which medium are you "hearing" the unemployed complain?
And you are the white male born in the UK (I surmise the latter from your postings) present in your profile photos.....and there's no invisible privilege you may have experienced.....at all? Not that my point is even about reducing it to a simplified cis white male argument. But to counter you in this last post, I'll let it be. I find your point narrowminded, judgmental and laughable (except it is a bitter sweet laugh) -- you know what though...the great thing is you're entitled to it....one of the privileges of living in the UK now isn't it? Not that you experienced any privilege other than poverty. And you still think my point is saying that people cannot and should not strive to make good from their past experiences -- actual *facepalm*
How is this an issue of ethnicity? The same applies to everyone regardless of race. I don't think being a wasp has had an impact but then if it is, as you imply,an 'invisible privelege' how could i be aware of it. To reiterate i am where and who i am through sheer hard work and determination, are you suggesting that i am simply lucky. That is narrow minded and over simplistic.
Nope, I'm only challenging your perception that there's only one factor at play -- the individual's effort and choice. I'm providing alternatives -- to help you see the possibility that other things can be at play then your view that has read "unemployed benefit clarinets are simply not pushing themselves hard enough" (I'm paraphrasing that, I warrant). I pointed out potential privilege you enjoy as you answered saying the only invisible privilege you enjoy is poverty. I'm sorry that my failure to agree with your polarised opinion means you feel I have a polarised opinion...I quite simply don't. My original post reply says yes and no to the OP's generalisation, and my responses to you are simply countering yours.
Bwahahaha **claimants
(Not clarinets!!)
There are other factors at play, i am stating that none cannot be overcome. There are plenty of people from worse backgrounds than myself who have been much more successful than i have, is that through privelege?
As for the complaints of the unemployed they are well documented. I know university graduates who can't find work yet they think having a degree makes them physically unable to stack shelves at the local supermarket. No one seems to be prepared to start at the bottom any more, they think having a few qualifications means they can only do supervisory/managerial roles. A change of mindset is needed here.
I reiterate I'm not negating the point you're making per se, I'm challenging the thought that an individual always has the autonomous power to do so. But then perhaps I've had more direct exposure than you have to those individuals which has broadened my understanding. Anyway, glad you've recalibrated the issue with your opening statement somewhat. And keep on keeping on. "I am afraid that the fact you are claiming my point of view is narrowminded and simplistic means that you are negating it. I can only speak from my own experience and am aware that your's may be entirely different, however, i remain firm in my opinions. I think we will just have to agree to disagree but it has been an interesting discussion. Best wishes. | |||
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"Have you too noticed how self employed people work quicker, are more organised, spin more plates (please ask if confused), challenge more and generally keep on top of things much better?" No I haven't. That's settled. Are we done here? | |||
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"And we reach the good ol "only reason you succeed is privilege" line of argument. Have you actually got a reply post to the OP? Or am I hurting your cis male fragility by having a discussion with someone else?
I replied to the op in my very first post.
Oh full disclosure though i am both a PAYE employee and self employed so i dont really have a horse in this race.
You though seem very bitter about your circumstances and determined to blame them on everyone else
Ahh so you did! Apologies -- you find all self emp that you've experienced slow etc...gotcha!
Interesting that you've jumped to a conclusion about me too. How am I bitter about my circumstances? I'm not commenting on mine. In any way.
And I'm so far from bitter, but perhaps you need to think that a woman disagreeing with you and bored by you is a vinegar-titted bitter sort? Ahhh you're funny.
Yeah i don't give a shit abour your gender or your skin colour so stop trying to make it about that its pathetic.
And its because from the start youve used so manly logical falicies and bullshit to attack the op that it's clear you ahve an agender
"An agender! The brilliance of that spelling error is superb! I commend you | |||
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Estella - We will never know what type of work she does, but she could probably do anything!
Doctorprod is aiming his weapon and refuses to back down! Also passionate about his views.
I am sure there will be no ongoing hard feelings in the heated exchanges as what ever happens in a thread stays in a thread... right?
The rest of us were not quick enough to have our say! Including me
So now we will never know the fascinating opinions that people would have contributed to this thread.
There is a problem though...
@SuperSanta:
What you did in here is just disgusting!!
There was no need for it...
You literally made people scroll down further 
Nobody will forget that and you will be remembered for all the wrong reasons at Christmas time
Respect to everyone for sticking to their views and opinions
OP can you think of other topics to get stuck into!?
Prehaps let everyone recover for a while then hit us with another thread  | |||
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