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Term time holidays
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By *oodmess OP Man
over a year ago
yumsville |
It seems he is challenging the schools attendance policy, rather than raising attention to the cost of air fairs or cost of holidays outside of term time. The mother took the daughter on holiday for Christmas and paid the fine, he knew but believed he'd never be sent to jail due to the still good attendance rates. It seems schools do allow holidays and days off for exceptional circumstances, just they chose to enforce their policy in this case. He'll be lucky to win - their case went to the extreme of parents going to court to debate with judges each and every time what they thought regular attendance was. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think 90% attendance is pretty shit actually. That's the equivalent of a day off every other week. I assume all the parents who sod off on "educational" "learning" trips to Disneyland mid-term will accept their children getting results 10% less than they could have done and not blame the teachers for it...oh wait... |
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By *oodmess OP Man
over a year ago
yumsville |
"Crikey I better watch that, I'm taking my 3 out! I'm saving £2700 by doing so  "
They discussed the options in place fines, judgements (not sure if they were meaning county court). Didn't say when the verdict is |
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By *oodmess OP Man
over a year ago
yumsville |
"I think 90% attendance is pretty shit actually. That's the equivalent of a day off every other week. I assume all the parents who sod off on "educational" "learning" trips to Disneyland mid-term will accept their children getting results 10% less than they could have done and not blame the teachers for it...oh wait..."
Or they could argue that they were only late one, two or 30 days so did in fact attend and were regularly receiving education despite going on holiday too |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anybody watching the supreme court hearing? It's live at the moment.
Ooooo I hope they stop fucking inset days too."
Stop teachers doing any continuing professional development, learning about safeguarding and the like? Cracking idea! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm taking mine out during term time, it was actually an accident booking as it was meant to be the May half term, but I got the dates wrong. There wasn't much difference in the prices for that time of year, but I understand why people do it, I even know teachers that do it. If you go away for a week, a child is essentially missing 5 days of school, depending on the time of year you go they may not actually miss that much education, as I know the schools where I am tend to do a week at Christmas and a week before the end of year as a games week.
When I booked mine I panicked thinking it'd coincide with my child's SATS, then his school trip (luckily it didn't). I checked about changing the dates, but it would have cost a fortune. So this time it'll just have to be during term time, I normally do it the first week of the summer holidays, but couldn't this year so it's may instead. The school have allowed them it, the reasons why they did could vary, but one main one is probably knowing that I work with them, not against them, I support my children and attend every meeting and taking them out of school is something I've never actually done.
If people want to take their children out I don't think it's anyone's business, but it's mainly the working class that get penalised for it as they can't afford the extra tuition etc for their child. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don't think families should be penalised for taking their children out in term time. As long as its not every month and the parents are given the information and home work of what that child would be missing. Its 2 weeks max so I don't think its that big a deal, that time can be made up elsewhere. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't think families should be penalised for taking their children out in term time. As long as its not every month and the parents are given the information and home work of what that child would be missing. Its 2 weeks max so I don't think its that big a deal, that time can be made up elsewhere. "
totally agree. Our local school has a zero tolerence for it.. so not been on holiday as a family for 8 years.
We get weekends away every so often but cant really afford it during holidays plus with 2 special needs kids. School holidays are too busy for them to deal with. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We just wish that all schools could vary their term times so that greedy holiday resorts/ operators had no choice but to make prices more consistent.
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I can't help thinking that if schools change their holidays then the price will just go up all year round. Travel agents aren't going to willingly take a hit on their profit levels for the sake of "fairness" |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We just wish that all schools could vary their term times so that greedy holiday resorts/ operators had no choice but to make prices more consistent.
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It's not really greed though, just basic supply and demand. All that would happen is that all prices would rise to smooth it out (which I'm all up for, as someone who doesn't even have bloody children but still has to go on holiday in school holidays - but I'm sure those currently benefiting, including parents taking their children out of school, would complain about the increase). |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We just wish that all schools could vary their term times so that greedy holiday resorts/ operators had no choice but to make prices more consistent.
I can't help thinking that if schools change their holidays then the price will just go up all year round. Travel agents aren't going to willingly take a hit on their profit levels for the sake of "fairness""
True, I did say more consistent.
By doing so it would reduce the obvious temptation for parents to take kids out when they should be learning. |
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By *abs..Woman
over a year ago
.. |
They should concentrate more on children with persistent absences and broken weeks that can, and often do, equate to more than a two week period over an academic year. That type of absence has a much bigger impact on a child's education and is more disruptive for the teacher than a two week holiday once a year if you generally have good attendance. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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ive done it for the past 2 years taken my daughter out the week just before summer holidays start. The school are always off the Friday so its 4 school days she misses.
i dont feel bad as i have always insisted that i take home extra homework on what she would be learning but its never very much as its basically a week of dvds and games |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anybody watching the supreme court hearing? It's live at the moment.
Ooooo I hope they stop fucking inset days too.
Stop teachers doing any continuing professional development, learning about safeguarding and the like? Cracking idea! "
Pretty sure they can squeeze it into their excessive holidays |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anybody watching the supreme court hearing? It's live at the moment.
Ooooo I hope they stop fucking inset days too.
Stop teachers doing any continuing professional development, learning about safeguarding and the like? Cracking idea!
Pretty sure they can squeeze it into their excessive holidays"
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By *harpDressed ManMan
over a year ago
Here occasionally, but mostly somewhere else |
"the schools where I am tend to do a week at Christmas and a week before the end of year as a games week."
I daren't ask.
On the underlying point...
Missing a week per year shouldn't be a problem in isolation, but global rules were implemented to remove subjectivity, weren't they? When there's a rule, the head can't be accused of favouritism.
As a non-parent, I'd prefer all family holidays to be at the same time  and ideally in the same place!!!
Price gouging will find a way to persist - child rates will creep closer and closer to adult ones, cutoff points will get lower and lower. Having kids will remain expensive.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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When a school take the children out of school, it's for a cultural experience. So when you wish take your kids out, write to them stating it's for a cultural experience. Don't mention holiday.
Also, if your school fine parents, make sure you invoice them for a strike, bad weather closure etc... If your school doesn't issue fines, just write to the school to say that on this occasion, you will allow that unauthorised absence.
Lastly, by law, your child just needs educated, they don't have to go to a state school. So if you can, home school your child(ren). Studies have shown they're better off home schooled. Just write to the LEA, when they want study/lesson plans, advise them to fuck off.
I know someone right now in Ofsted (no word of a lie) who said that if they had children, they wouldn't choose a state school but do whatever they can to pay for private education. Speaks volumes. |
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"Anybody watching the supreme court hearing? It's live at the moment.
Ooooo I hope they stop fucking inset days too.
Stop teachers doing any continuing professional development, learning about safeguarding and the like? Cracking idea!
Pretty sure they can squeeze it into their excessive holidays"
Public schools manage to do all the professional development etc without inset days, state schools have the ability to do the same but don't  |
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"If seems if you can afford to send your kids to private school the rule about taking them out in term time and being fined doesnt apply."
Not true, there are a lot of families that make massive sacrifices to put their children through private school. Forgoing holidays etc |
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The priority of the state education system is:
1. To be the national baby sitting service that our economy needs to function
2. To advance the career of the education secretary so they can try and become prime minister
3. To provide employment for teachers and staff
4. To educate the kids
If the kids education was priority 1 then the school day would start later and be longer, holidays wouldn't be arranged around harvest time, there would be less exams and the curriculum wouldn't change every time the wind does.
From my personal experience you could miss entire years of school and still catch up quite easily. Good on the dad for actually spending some quality time with his kids. |
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"I don't think families should be penalised for taking their children out in term time. As long as its not every month and the parents are given the information and home work of what that child would be missing. Its 2 weeks max so I don't think its that big a deal, that time can be made up elsewhere. totally agree. Our local school has a zero tolerence for it.. so not been on holiday as a family for 8 years.
We get weekends away every so often but cant really afford it during holidays plus with 2 special needs kids. School holidays are too busy for them to deal with. "
This is the problem with the ruling. The judges say the school has to decide but most people have little choice over which school their kids attend and turkeys don't vote for Christmas. The decision is a shame but the answer is basically to lie to the school and say your kids were ill for a week. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If seems if you can afford to send your kids to private school the rule about taking them out in term time and being fined doesnt apply.
Not true, there are a lot of families that make massive sacrifices to put their children through private school. Forgoing holidays etc "
I know lots of people struggle to pay for a private education for their kids.
Im just pointing out that the rules are different for private and state schools.
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By *oodmess OP Man
over a year ago
yumsville |
"When a school take the children out of school, it's for a cultural experience. So when you wish take your kids out, write to them stating it's for a cultural experience. Don't mention holiday."
Schools already have the ability to grant holiday request during term times. The judgement is on regular attendance, not on whether they should have a holiday. There is probably less discretion around exam times though.
"Also, if your school fine parents, make sure you invoice them for a strike, bad weather closure etc... If your school doesn't issue fines, just write to the school to say that on this occasion, you will allow that unauthorised absence."
You would be invoicing the Department for Education. The fine is set by the Government not the school. Teachers striking are for different reasons, name-lee work conditions, class sizes, pay.
"Lastly, by law, your child just needs educated, they don't have to go to a state school. So if you can, home school your child(ren). Studies have shown they're better off home schooled. Just write to the LEA, when they want study/lesson plans, advise them to fuck off."
I suppose it'd allow you to take holidays whenever you wanted
"I know someone right now in Ofsted (no word of a lie) who said that if they had children, they wouldn't choose a state school but do whatever they can to pay for private education. Speaks volumes."
Attending regularly, rewarding good behaviour, making sure homework is done with an available space to do it in would ensure a good education. There's no difference in the education of teachers, so it's either the resources available or attitude or parents that's the problem |
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"
I know someone right now in Ofsted (no word of a lie) who said that if they had children, they wouldn't choose a state school but do whatever they can to pay for private education. Speaks volumes.
Attending regularly, rewarding good behaviour, making sure homework is done with an available space to do it in would ensure a good education. There's no difference in the education of teachers, so it's either the resources available or attitude or parents that's the problem"
Have you never seen a football team dramatically improve results by firing the manager but keeping the same players, same playing budget and same coaching staff. I have. |
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By *oodmess OP Man
over a year ago
yumsville |
"
I know someone right now in Ofsted (no word of a lie) who said that if they had children, they wouldn't choose a state school but do whatever they can to pay for private education. Speaks volumes.
Attending regularly, rewarding good behaviour, making sure homework is done with an available space to do it in would ensure a good education. There's no difference in the education of teachers, so it's either the resources available or attitude or parents that's the problem
Have you never seen a football team dramatically improve results by firing the manager but keeping the same players, same playing budget and same coaching staff. I have. "
You may as well say, 'lets go for a piss up when we win the league and play on Sunday'. It doesn't equate. There needs to be stability both ends. |
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"
I know someone right now in Ofsted (no word of a lie) who said that if they had children, they wouldn't choose a state school but do whatever they can to pay for private education. Speaks volumes.
Attending regularly, rewarding good behaviour, making sure homework is done with an available space to do it in would ensure a good education. There's no difference in the education of teachers, so it's either the resources available or attitude or parents that's the problem
Have you never seen a football team dramatically improve results by firing the manager but keeping the same players, same playing budget and same coaching staff. I have.
You may as well say, 'lets go for a piss up when we win the league and play on Sunday'. It doesn't equate. There needs to be stability both ends. "
Your point was that you have equally qualified teachers so the difference must be the parents or the resources. You are ignoring the possibility that the system itself is the problem (i.e. it's political football). |
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This is the problem with a one size fits all solution.
Put the decision back in the hands of the school so they can make a decision based on common sense, with a discussion between staff and parents. |
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By *oodmess OP Man
over a year ago
yumsville |
"
I know someone right now in Ofsted (no word of a lie) who said that if they had children, they wouldn't choose a state school but do whatever they can to pay for private education. Speaks volumes.
Attending regularly, rewarding good behaviour, making sure homework is done with an available space to do it in would ensure a good education. There's no difference in the education of teachers, so it's either the resources available or attitude or parents that's the problem
Have you never seen a football team dramatically improve results by firing the manager but keeping the same players, same playing budget and same coaching staff. I have.
You may as well say, 'lets go for a piss up when we win the league and play on Sunday'. It doesn't equate. There needs to be stability both ends.
Your point was that you have equally qualified teachers so the difference must be the parents or the resources. You are ignoring the possibility that the system itself is the problem (i.e. it's political football). "
Soooo what... are you saying. Parents and school funding have no effect? |
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"This is the problem with a one size fits all solution.
Put the decision back in the hands of the school so they can make a decision based on common sense, with a discussion between staff and parents."
Exactly..but that would require common bloody sense which seems to be a dying thing nowadays |
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"So if this passes, will parents taking their kids on holiday during term time be happy with Teachers, who are also parents of school age kids, doing the same thing? "
There's a difference. Teachers holidays are automatically at the same period of time as the kids. So that excludes the problem of people being able to take leave at the same time as kids.
It would also be difficult for a teacher to claim economic need as a reason, when their salary is far in excess of what other groups earn. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Can't wait for a parent to sue local council for not educating their child on the last day of school term instead of letting them bring in games to play all day long. |
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By *W ChapMan
over a year ago
Swindon |
"So if this passes, will parents taking their kids on holiday during term time be happy with Teachers, who are also parents of school age kids, doing the same thing?
There's a difference. Teachers holidays are automatically at the same period of time as the kids. So that excludes the problem of people being able to take leave at the same time as kids.
It would also be difficult for a teacher to claim economic need as a reason, when their salary is far in excess of what other groups earn."
Different schools have different holidays now a lot of them are not locally governed, and I'm sorry but when I had young kids I couldn't afford to go abroad, so guess what....I cut my cloth accordingly....!! |
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"Are schools assuming that all parents can get holiday time off from their place of work in half term/summer breaks?"
Kind of, although it's not necessarily the schools assumption. Headteachers are allowed to permit time off in term time for 'exceptional circumstances' . But holidays aren't described as an exceptional circumstance.
Ultimately the parent is responsible for their childs education. If I was in that situation, and my child had good attendance, was making the best progress possible for their ability and I believed the holiday was in their benefit, I would take them. The penalty is £60.
If attendance was bad for other reasons on top of the holiday, it would be another matter and the parent could be prosecuted for allowing general bad attendance.
Remember, this court case is about the guy not paying £60 and making a stand against the principle. |
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By *oodmess OP Man
over a year ago
yumsville |
"
Remember, this court case is about the guy not paying £60 and making a stand against the principle."
You also have to remember that the guys wife had taken their kid out just after Christmas without permission and had paid the £60 fine. It seems the child was gaining a hell of lot of cultural experiences that year. The fella this time took exception and thought the £60 and threat of imprisonment was unreasonable. What the judgement said was imprisonment only stands as a deterrent, like speeding 5mph above the limit. A pass and go is given or a slap the wrist is, though if consecutive points are built up (for instance) the license could come into doubt.
The supreme court upheld the local magistrates decision and the High Courts decision. He received legal aid for his case when it was cut and dry - schools grant holidays at their discretion. The guy was simply being a whiny arse. |
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"
I know someone right now in Ofsted (no word of a lie) who said that if they had children, they wouldn't choose a state school but do whatever they can to pay for private education. Speaks volumes.
Attending regularly, rewarding good behaviour, making sure homework is done with an available space to do it in would ensure a good education. There's no difference in the education of teachers, so it's either the resources available or attitude or parents that's the problem
Have you never seen a football team dramatically improve results by firing the manager but keeping the same players, same playing budget and same coaching staff. I have.
You may as well say, 'lets go for a piss up when we win the league and play on Sunday'. It doesn't equate. There needs to be stability both ends.
Your point was that you have equally qualified teachers so the difference must be the parents or the resources. You are ignoring the possibility that the system itself is the problem (i.e. it's political football).
Soooo what... are you saying. Parents and school funding have no effect? "
What im saying is exactly whats written. That parents and funding aren't the critical difference, culture is. |
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"
Remember, this court case is about the guy not paying £60 and making a stand against the principle.
You also have to remember that the guys wife had taken their kid out just after Christmas without permission and had paid the £60 fine. It seems the child was gaining a hell of lot of cultural experiences that year. The fella this time took exception and thought the £60 and threat of imprisonment was unreasonable. What the judgement said was imprisonment only stands as a deterrent, like speeding 5mph above the limit. A pass and go is given or a slap the wrist is, though if consecutive points are built up (for instance) the license could come into doubt.
The supreme court upheld the local magistrates decision and the High Courts decision. He received legal aid for his case when it was cut and dry - schools grant holidays at their discretion. The guy was simply being a whiny arse. "
He got legal aid? I wondered how the cost was being met. Interesting how legal aid was available when he had managed to afford a trip to Florida.... |
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By *oodmess OP Man
over a year ago
yumsville |
"
Remember, this court case is about the guy not paying £60 and making a stand against the principle.
You also have to remember that the guys wife had taken their kid out just after Christmas without permission and had paid the £60 fine. It seems the child was gaining a hell of lot of cultural experiences that year. The fella this time took exception and thought the £60 and threat of imprisonment was unreasonable. What the judgement said was imprisonment only stands as a deterrent, like speeding 5mph above the limit. A pass and go is given or a slap the wrist is, though if consecutive points are built up (for instance) the license could come into doubt.
The supreme court upheld the local magistrates decision and the High Courts decision. He received legal aid for his case when it was cut and dry - schools grant holidays at their discretion. The guy was simply being a whiny arse.
He got legal aid? I wondered how the cost was being met. Interesting how legal aid was available when he had managed to afford a trip to Florida...."
Yep, I'm pretty sure I read he was able to gain legal aid for the High Court case but it may have been crowd funded on reading around now, but the "Supreme Court case has been secured using legal aid, said the council was spending huge amounts of taxpayers' money into fighting him".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/term-time-holidays-must-be-illegal-jon-platt-supreme-court-ruling-holidays-absence-pupil-isle-of-a7555561.html |
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