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Wheelchairs on buses
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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On the radio earlier they mentioned that now wheelchairs will not be refused if there is no room, due to pushchairs being in the space. Drivers are being told to not just ask, but to ensure that people move out of the space for a wheelchair user.
Is it just me that thinks this should have always been the case? As a parent of 3, I would never refuse, or not be expected, to fold my pushchair up to allow a wheelchair user in the space.
I was shocked to hear that in something has clearly being said for this to be enforced, what is happening to common decency. Being in a wheelchair is something they need, a pushchair can easily be folded and a child held; of course there priority clearly goes to the wheelchair user. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
I hadn't heard the Supreme Court ruling...
It has been a bone of contention for some time and the original case had conflicting decisions.
I spent a day in a wheelchair, as a challenge. I couldn't get on the first two buses I tried to catch as the first was just full and the second had two buggies on-board already.
I didn't have to be anywhere for any particular time but I can see it would be a problem if regular inability to get on the bus added to the difficulties of your day.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
|
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"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
"
I would get off my seat and let that parent sit down with their child/children. 
That other people wouldn't, is everything that's wrong with our society.  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I hadn't heard the Supreme Court ruling...
It has been a bone of contention for some time and the original case had conflicting decisions.
I spent a day in a wheelchair, as a challenge. I couldn't get on the first two buses I tried to catch as the first was just full and the second had two buggies on-board already.
I didn't have to be anywhere for any particular time but I can see it would be a problem if regular inability to get on the bus added to the difficulties of your day.
"
It was a supreme court ruling? I only caught the end of it, where they were saying what bus drivers would now have to do and what would be expected.
I would never had thought that something like this would have had to go to court, it just seems like it would be common sense/morals/values, to give up your space for a wheelchair user.
I'm really shocked about your experience, I've never seen it happen and don't think I would have been to pleased if I ever did. People give up seats for the elderly, pregnant etc; is it different once these people are on the bus? The wheelchair user didn't make it on to the bus so no need to worry. That's what it seems likes anyway. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
"
This could become a rolling theme, but yes they should, when the space is taken by a wheelchair or pushchair there's normally a seat space still free so they could easily sit in that with their child on their lap. Or like others have said, someone else should stand and allow the parent and child to sit, well as long as the child is at the age where they need the seat. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's just etiquette to give your seat up for someone who needs it more.
It's the right thing to do and I agree with the pram thing. I'm not a parent but I think it's right to let children stand or hold them to let a wheelchair in.
H xx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
I would get off my seat and let that parent sit down with their child/children.
That other people wouldn't, is everything that's wrong with our society. "
As would I!
but I find it odd why people do this. If the bus was full then an able bodied person would have to wait for the next one. Would you give up your seat for them? What makes anyone else any different? And where is the line drawn? Is the next step priority taxis? What about priority queueing?
We are all people. And in that sense we are all equal in my mind. And I find anything which which either negatively or positively discriminates is simply discrimination.
That said. I'd still give up my seat/walk. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I hadn't heard the Supreme Court ruling...
It has been a bone of contention for some time and the original case had conflicting decisions.
I spent a day in a wheelchair, as a challenge. I couldn't get on the first two buses I tried to catch as the first was just full and the second had two buggies on-board already.
I didn't have to be anywhere for any particular time but I can see it would be a problem if regular inability to get on the bus added to the difficulties of your day.
It was a supreme court ruling? I only caught the end of it, where they were saying what bus drivers would now have to do and what would be expected.
I would never had thought that something like this would have had to go to court, it just seems like it would be common sense/morals/values, to give up your space for a wheelchair user.
I'm really shocked about your experience, I've never seen it happen and don't think I would have been to pleased if I ever did. People give up seats for the elderly, pregnant etc; is it different once these people are on the bus? The wheelchair user didn't make it on to the bus so no need to worry. That's what it seems likes anyway."
Yes, Doug Paulley has been campaigning on this for four years after his experience. I saw him speak about this about two years ago.
I've now looked at the reports on this and I don't think it's that clear cut. The ruling is that the bus companies and their drivers must do more than just request someone move out of the space but doesn't mean they can remove them from the bus. If a buggy is in the space and there's nowhere else for it to go, I'm not sure what I driver can practically do.
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
I would get off my seat and let that parent sit down with their child/children.
That other people wouldn't, is everything that's wrong with our society.
As would I!
but I find it odd why people do this. If the bus was full then an able bodied person would have to wait for the next one. Would you give up your seat for them? What makes anyone else any different? And where is the line drawn? Is the next step priority taxis? What about priority queueing?
We are all people. And in that sense we are all equal in my mind. And I find anything which which either negatively or positively discriminates is simply discrimination.
That said. I'd still give up my seat/walk."
This is the 'treat everyone the same' argument that misses the point that to get to equal outcomes you sometimes need to have different actions for different people.
I'll step away now as I have covered this ground many times before and I know the responses I get.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Gem was in a wheelchair a couple of years back and the amount of parents who would get the arse with us trying to get on the bus. One occasion a parent refused to fold or move her pram saying it was a big push chair and said cant we wait for another bus how rude |
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"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
I would get off my seat and let that parent sit down with their child/children.
That other people wouldn't, is everything that's wrong with our society.
As would I!
but I find it odd why people do this. If the bus was full then an able bodied person would have to wait for the next one. Would you give up your seat for them? What makes anyone else any different? And where is the line drawn? Is the next step priority taxis? What about priority queueing?
We are all people. And in that sense we are all equal in my mind. And I find anything which which either negatively or positively discriminates is simply discrimination.
That said. I'd still give up my seat/walk."
No. I wouldn't physically get off the bus to let someone else on.  I'm not sure that's a likely comparison to make though...
I'd give up my seat for someone elderly, someone who was injured/disabled, a parent with kids or generally for someone who looked like they needed it more than me. Apply some common sense. I can go upstairs or stand so I would.
I've been well brought up and I know that my parents would expect nothing less. I would hope (perhaps naively) that if my parents got on a bus a needed a seat, someone would get off their arse to oblige.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
I would get off my seat and let that parent sit down with their child/children.
That other people wouldn't, is everything that's wrong with our society.
As would I!
but I find it odd why people do this. If the bus was full then an able bodied person would have to wait for the next one. Would you give up your seat for them? What makes anyone else any different? And where is the line drawn? Is the next step priority taxis? What about priority queueing?
We are all people. And in that sense we are all equal in my mind. And I find anything which which either negatively or positively discriminates is simply discrimination.
That said. I'd still give up my seat/walk.
This is the 'treat everyone the same' argument that misses the point that to get to equal outcomes you sometimes need to have different actions for different people.
I'll step away now as I have covered this ground many times before and I know the responses I get.
"
Actually I think we had this discussion before.
You are pro 'different inputs to create the same output' and I'm more 'give everyone the same input and they make if it what they will'.
Different sides of the same coin I guess.
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Just pure lazy bone idle people for me that won't do anything to help other people. I would always drop a pushchair so someone could get on that was in a wheelchair.
It's a bit like people that sit there on a packed bus and leave a heavily pregnant women to stand up. |
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People don't give up seats full stop anymore. At 34 weeks heavily pregnant and barely able to walk, daily, I stand on the bus to work because it appears I'm invisible.
Last week, an entire lower deck of 18 (I counted them) student nurses on the way to their their intake day sat and watched myself and my 2.5 year old stand the 3 miles to nursery rather than offer a seat.
I've given up my seat recently to a mother with a newborn in a sling because no one else moved.
So no, I'm not in the least bit surprised people don't move. People suck.
*Her* |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I hadn't heard the Supreme Court ruling...
It has been a bone of contention for some time and the original case had conflicting decisions.
I spent a day in a wheelchair, as a challenge. I couldn't get on the first two buses I tried to catch as the first was just full and the second had two buggies on-board already.
I didn't have to be anywhere for any particular time but I can see it would be a problem if regular inability to get on the bus added to the difficulties of your day.
It was a supreme court ruling? I only caught the end of it, where they were saying what bus drivers would now have to do and what would be expected.
I would never had thought that something like this would have had to go to court, it just seems like it would be common sense/morals/values, to give up your space for a wheelchair user.
I'm really shocked about your experience, I've never seen it happen and don't think I would have been to pleased if I ever did. People give up seats for the elderly, pregnant etc; is it different once these people are on the bus? The wheelchair user didn't make it on to the bus so no need to worry. That's what it seems likes anyway.
Yes, Doug Paulley has been campaigning on this for four years after his experience. I saw him speak about this about two years ago.
I've now looked at the reports on this and I don't think it's that clear cut. The ruling is that the bus companies and their drivers must do more than just request someone move out of the space but doesn't mean they can remove them from the bus. If a buggy is in the space and there's nowhere else for it to go, I'm not sure what I driver can practically do.
"
Yes, my understanding is that there's still a way to go. And I agree, how can a driver really enforce priority for the wheelchair user (which is in my opinion the better parity situation) it is so difficult for them -- it really is everyone's responsibility to address, but there will still be that person/s who will be so self serving they refuse to assist by helping the wheelchair user in, the mother to be accommodated better and so on.
And I'm answer to the other poster, yes I'd get off the bus personally to enable a wheelchair user to get on. And gain a little perspective on appreciating my greater mobility. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
I would get off my seat and let that parent sit down with their child/children.
That other people wouldn't, is everything that's wrong with our society.
As would I!
but I find it odd why people do this. If the bus was full then an able bodied person would have to wait for the next one. Would you give up your seat for them? What makes anyone else any different? And where is the line drawn? Is the next step priority taxis? What about priority queueing?
We are all people. And in that sense we are all equal in my mind. And I find anything which which either negatively or positively discriminates is simply discrimination.
That said. I'd still give up my seat/walk.
No. I wouldn't physically get off the bus to let someone else on. I'm not sure that's a likely comparison to make though...
I'd give up my seat for someone elderly, someone who was injured/disabled, a parent with kids or generally for someone who looked like they needed it more than me. Apply some common sense. I can go upstairs or stand so I would.
I've been well brought up and I know that my parents would expect nothing less. I would hope (perhaps naively) that if my parents got on a bus a needed a seat, someone would get off their arse to oblige. "
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you and was also dragged up proper and would get off my arse. I just find it rediculous that these things need to spend 5 years going through the courts! |
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"People don't give up seats full stop anymore. At 34 weeks heavily pregnant and barely able to walk, daily, I stand on the bus to work because it appears I'm invisible.
Last week, an entire lower deck of 18 (I counted them) student nurses on the way to their their intake day sat and watched myself and my 2.5 year old stand the 3 miles to nursery rather than offer a seat.
I've given up my seat recently to a mother with a newborn in a sling because no one else moved.
So no, I'm not in the least bit surprised people don't move. People suck.
*Her* "
Jeeze... prime example! I'd give you my seat. And if I were on your bus I'd have stood up and told all those student nurses that they should be ashamed of themselves. |
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By *oxesMan
over a year ago
Southend, Essex |
"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
"
had happened before and yes. and they should stand or held.
a few years a go a story came ok the need of a bus driver who kicked a mum and child off the bus after he was disrupting the bus driver.
from personal experience I have seen someone come on to a bus with a tank off a pushchair in Cardiff. there was a pole with the bell about 6 inches away from the storage pen. she couldn't get on the bus so instead of folding the chair and putting it in the pen she just got off. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
I would get off my seat and let that parent sit down with their child/children.
That other people wouldn't, is everything that's wrong with our society.
As would I!
but I find it odd why people do this. If the bus was full then an able bodied person would have to wait for the next one. Would you give up your seat for them? What makes anyone else any different? And where is the line drawn? Is the next step priority taxis? What about priority queueing?
We are all people. And in that sense we are all equal in my mind. And I find anything which which either negatively or positively discriminates is simply discrimination.
That said. I'd still give up my seat/walk.
This is the 'treat everyone the same' argument that misses the point that to get to equal outcomes you sometimes need to have different actions for different people.
I'll step away now as I have covered this ground many times before and I know the responses I get.
Actually I think we had this discussion before.
You are pro 'different inputs to create the same output' and I'm more 'give everyone the same input and they make if it what they will'.
Different sides of the same coin I guess.
"
Very different sides of a very different coin. I'd recommend actually reading up on what equal opportunity is really about.
Sorry if that's gruff, but it's important that people know it's not the same. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
"
Yes. The wheelchair area was designed so people in wheelchairs can use public transport. Parents know that, and take the risk, when boarding a bus with a pram.
Before the wheelchair area was added we had to fold our buggies, or walk, pushing the pram. They weren't put there for the convenience of parents. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's a lie.
I've not got the bus in at least a decade 
Come to London and try it out. Your eyes would be opened. "
I've not been to London in even longer than that! Not one of my fave places |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I do see people standing up for elderly people and people with walking sticks and crutches. Not always though, but most of the time.
I make a point of loudly offering my seat to someone who needs it more than me.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's a lie.
I've not got the bus in at least a decade
Come to London and try it out. Your eyes would be opened.
I've not been to London in even longer than that! Not one of my fave places"
I'm not even in central London and my bus journeys are often a nightmare.
People not moving for wheelchairs, barging on in front of everyone waiting to get on, teenagers screaming and pushing each other into passengers, and my pet hate, people sitting in the aisle seat with their bag on the window seat. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's a lie.
I've not got the bus in at least a decade
Come to London and try it out. Your eyes would be opened.
I've not been to London in even longer than that! Not one of my fave places
I'm not even in central London and my bus journeys are often a nightmare.
People not moving for wheelchairs, barging on in front of everyone waiting to get on, teenagers screaming and pushing each other into passengers, and my pet hate, people sitting in the aisle seat with their bag on the window seat. "
I like them. I always make a point of asking if the seat is free  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
I would get off my seat and let that parent sit down with their child/children.
That other people wouldn't, is everything that's wrong with our society.
As would I!
but I find it odd why people do this. If the bus was full then an able bodied person would have to wait for the next one. Would you give up your seat for them? What makes anyone else any different? And where is the line drawn? Is the next step priority taxis? What about priority queueing?
We are all people. And in that sense we are all equal in my mind. And I find anything which which either negatively or positively discriminates is simply discrimination.
That said. I'd still give up my seat/walk.
This is the 'treat everyone the same' argument that misses the point that to get to equal outcomes you sometimes need to have different actions for different people.
I'll step away now as I have covered this ground many times before and I know the responses I get.
Actually I think we had this discussion before.
You are pro 'different inputs to create the same output' and I'm more 'give everyone the same input and they make if it what they will'.
Different sides of the same coin I guess.
Very different sides of a very different coin. I'd recommend actually reading up on what equal opportunity is really about.
Sorry if that's gruff, but it's important that people know it's not the same. "
Without wanting to get into an off topic argument I think you're wrong.
The sad fact is that "threat others as you'd wish to be treated" is dying as more people are looking after number 1.
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"That's a lie.
I've not got the bus in at least a decade
Come to London and try it out. Your eyes would be opened.
I've not been to London in even longer than that! Not one of my fave places
I'm not even in central London and my bus journeys are often a nightmare.
People not moving for wheelchairs, barging on in front of everyone waiting to get on, teenagers screaming and pushing each other into passengers, and my pet hate, people sitting in the aisle seat with their bag on the window seat. "
I gave up my seat on a packed bus for a lady who got on with crutches and the moment I moved this other woman sat down. I very quietly pointed out the reason why I had stood up. She moved pretty sharpish.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's a lie.
I've not got the bus in at least a decade
Come to London and try it out. Your eyes would be opened.
I've not been to London in even longer than that! Not one of my fave places
I'm not even in central London and my bus journeys are often a nightmare.
People not moving for wheelchairs, barging on in front of everyone waiting to get on, teenagers screaming and pushing each other into passengers, and my pet hate, people sitting in the aisle seat with their bag on the window seat.
I gave up my seat on a packed bus for a lady who got on with crutches and the moment I moved this other woman sat down. I very quietly pointed out the reason why I had stood up. She moved pretty sharpish. "
That's happened to me a few times, so I talk loudly to the person I'm giving my seat to.
The problem wheelchair users in my area have is there are so many people with buggies using buses, they have to wait for ages for one without buggies on.
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"That's a lie.
I've not got the bus in at least a decade
Come to London and try it out. Your eyes would be opened.
I've not been to London in even longer than that! Not one of my fave places
I'm not even in central London and my bus journeys are often a nightmare.
People not moving for wheelchairs, barging on in front of everyone waiting to get on, teenagers screaming and pushing each other into passengers, and my pet hate, people sitting in the aisle seat with their bag on the window seat.
I gave up my seat on a packed bus for a lady who got on with crutches and the moment I moved this other woman sat down. I very quietly pointed out the reason why I had stood up. She moved pretty sharpish.
That's happened to me a few times, so I talk loudly to the person I'm giving my seat to.
The problem wheelchair users in my area have is there are so many people with buggies using buses, they have to wait for ages for one without buggies on.
"
Not any more they don't! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Good post, the buggy can be folded away, the children put on knees/carried."
Some prams are big and have detachable carry cots on them.
I've seen women refuse to move for a wheelchair user, then get off at the next stop. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's a lie.
I've not got the bus in at least a decade
Come to London and try it out. Your eyes would be opened.
I've not been to London in even longer than that! Not one of my fave places
I'm not even in central London and my bus journeys are often a nightmare.
People not moving for wheelchairs, barging on in front of everyone waiting to get on, teenagers screaming and pushing each other into passengers, and my pet hate, people sitting in the aisle seat with their bag on the window seat.
I gave up my seat on a packed bus for a lady who got on with crutches and the moment I moved this other woman sat down. I very quietly pointed out the reason why I had stood up. She moved pretty sharpish.
That's happened to me a few times, so I talk loudly to the person I'm giving my seat to.
The problem wheelchair users in my area have is there are so many people with buggies using buses, they have to wait for ages for one without buggies on.
Not any more they don't! "
Is it now law and the bus drivers can force people off buses? |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"
The problem wheelchair users in my area have is there are so many people with buggies using buses, they have to wait for ages for one without buggies on.
Not any more they don't!
Is it now law and the bus drivers can force people off buses? "
No. They have to do more than request someone move but less than eject them from the bus... I see problems ahead.
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"
The problem wheelchair users in my area have is there are so many people with buggies using buses, they have to wait for ages for one without buggies on.
Not any more they don't!
Is it now law and the bus drivers can force people off buses?
No. They have to do more than request someone move but less than eject them from the bus... I see problems ahead.
"
I'd hope the drivers shame the lazy slackers who refuse to move for a wheelchair. Although it saddens me that such procedures are necessary.  |
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"
Not any more they don't!
Is it now law and the bus drivers can force people off buses? "
No. They can only wait and hold the bus up and say someone 'must' move to make space. I guess they'd have to call police if it couldn't be solved by common sense. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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How I see it is, the space was put there for wheelchairs. If people using buggies refuse to move, go back to only allowing them on a bus if they fold the buggy first. We managed for years without pushing our pram onto buses. I know it's different now, with children having to travel a long way to school, but people would have to take that into consideration when buying a buggy. I walked everywhere with my babies. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
I would get off my seat and let that parent sit down with their child/children.
That other people wouldn't, is everything that's wrong with our society.
As would I!
but I find it odd why people do this. If the bus was full then an able bodied person would have to wait for the next one. Would you give up your seat for them? What makes anyone else any different? And where is the line drawn? Is the next step priority taxis? What about priority queueing?
We are all people. And in that sense we are all equal in my mind. And I find anything which which either negatively or positively discriminates is simply discrimination.
That said. I'd still give up my seat/walk.
This is the 'treat everyone the same' argument that misses the point that to get to equal outcomes you sometimes need to have different actions for different people.
I'll step away now as I have covered this ground many times before and I know the responses I get.
Actually I think we had this discussion before.
You are pro 'different inputs to create the same output' and I'm more 'give everyone the same input and they make if it what they will'.
Different sides of the same coin I guess.
Very different sides of a very different coin. I'd recommend actually reading up on what equal opportunity is really about.
Sorry if that's gruff, but it's important that people know it's not the same.
Without wanting to get into an off topic argument I think you're wrong.
The sad fact is that "threat others as you'd wish to be treated" is dying as more people are looking after number 1.
"
Well we can both agree that we think the other is wrong. Even to the point that you consider it off topic. I've not the energy to further engage, there's a number of threads on the MOBO awards and lack of necessity for a MOWO award thread where equal opportunity is discussed more clearly. If you'd like to understand my opinion there's a posted comedy clip on reverse racism which beautifully illustrates the point that you're trying to make about equal treatment means equal opps, and why your simplistic response in the real world context is so ridiculous (in my opinion). Thanks for your opinion. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"How I see it is, the space was put there for wheelchairs. If people using buggies refuse to move, go back to only allowing them on a bus if they fold the buggy first. We managed for years without pushing our pram onto buses. I know it's different now, with children having to travel a long way to school, but people would have to take that into consideration when buying a buggy. I walked everywhere with my babies. "
The spaces on London buses are marked as wheelchair priority. I don't know if that's the same for buses outside London.
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"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
I would get off my seat and let that parent sit down with their child/children.
That other people wouldn't, is everything that's wrong with our society.
As would I!
but I find it odd why people do this. If the bus was full then an able bodied person would have to wait for the next one. Would you give up your seat for them? What makes anyone else any different? And where is the line drawn? Is the next step priority taxis? What about priority queueing?
We are all people. And in that sense we are all equal in my mind. And I find anything which which either negatively or positively discriminates is simply discrimination.
That said. I'd still give up my seat/walk.
This is the 'treat everyone the same' argument that misses the point that to get to equal outcomes you sometimes need to have different actions for different people.
I'll step away now as I have covered this ground many times before and I know the responses I get.
Actually I think we had this discussion before.
You are pro 'different inputs to create the same output' and I'm more 'give everyone the same input and they make if it what they will'.
Different sides of the same coin I guess.
Very different sides of a very different coin. I'd recommend actually reading up on what equal opportunity is really about.
Sorry if that's gruff, but it's important that people know it's not the same.
Without wanting to get into an off topic argument I think you're wrong.
The sad fact is that "threat others as you'd wish to be treated" is dying as more people are looking after number 1.
"
They really aren't wrong . Equal opportunity isn't give everyone the same and see who sinks and who swims. It is about providing the right help to ensure that everyone has the same outcome.
It's very clear that a disabled person in a wheelchair needs more room than others on a bus so to simply say 'tough shit.... We've given you access to a bus the same as everyone else but you still can't travel like everyone else is' is not providing equal opportunities.
No one has said people have to get off the bus to make room but if there is a buggy in a wheelchair space or should be moved.
It is a sad reflection of the world we live in when manners have to be laid down in law before they are honoured. |
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By *igeiaWoman
over a year ago
Bristol |
"How I see it is, the space was put there for wheelchairs. If people using buggies refuse to move, go back to only allowing them on a bus if they fold the buggy first. We managed for years without pushing our pram onto buses. I know it's different now, with children having to travel a long way to school, but people would have to take that into consideration when buying a buggy. I walked everywhere with my babies.
The spaces on London buses are marked as wheelchair priority. I don't know if that's the same for buses outside London.
"
Is is by me. Along the lines of 'this space is available for pushchairs if free but wheelchair users have priority and if one boards than the pushchair must be folded'. It's put much better than that but that's the gist. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"How I see it is, the space was put there for wheelchairs. If people using buggies refuse to move, go back to only allowing them on a bus if they fold the buggy first. We managed for years without pushing our pram onto buses. I know it's different now, with children having to travel a long way to school, but people would have to take that into consideration when buying a buggy. I walked everywhere with my babies.
The spaces on London buses are marked as wheelchair priority. I don't know if that's the same for buses outside London.
Is is by me. Along the lines of 'this space is available for pushchairs if free but wheelchair users have priority and if one boards than the pushchair must be folded'. It's put much better than that but that's the gist."
Ah! 'Tis the same here. I didn't use the bus when I was working round and about near you.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"On the radio earlier they mentioned that now wheelchairs will not be refused if there is no room, due to pushchairs being in the space. Drivers are being told to not just ask, but to ensure that people move out of the space for a wheelchair user.
Is it just me that thinks this should have always been the case? As a parent of 3, I would never refuse, or not be expected, to fold my pushchair up to allow a wheelchair user in the space.
I was shocked to hear that in something has clearly being said for this to be enforced, what is happening to common decency. Being in a wheelchair is something they need, a pushchair can easily be folded and a child held; of course there priority clearly goes to the wheelchair user. "
The judge didnt make it a blanket ruling simply that in this case the company needs to do more than have the driver just ask.
What that means hasn't been fully determined.
But its not applicable to all companies.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The article I just read says it's not law, and they can't make someone get off a bus, but must request they fold the buggy. Some prams don't fold. I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Playing devils advocate here
But what if the bus is full? Is the parents with a pushchair then expected to make their children stand/hold their child or
Children or even get off the bus?
"
The whole issue kicked off because the parent refused to fold up thiet buggy to make room because they didnt want ro wake the baby.
If the bus is full the buss is full. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The article I just read says it's not law, and they can't make someone get off a bus, but must request they fold the buggy. Some prams don't fold. I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
"
It will just be down to company policy wording now.
Companies may simply say the spaces are first come first served to bypass it all |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The article I just read says it's not law, and they can't make someone get off a bus, but must request they fold the buggy. Some prams don't fold. I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
It will just be down to company policy wording now.
Companies may simply say the spaces are first come first served to bypass it all"
I can't see the point in having a wheelchair area if they don't get priority. I wouldn't be allowed to park my car in a disabled space. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I make a point of loudly offering my seat to someone who needs it more than me.
"
How nice of you to draw attention to the person.
Im sure they wanted nothing more than a whole buss full of people gawping at them |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
" I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
"
I think baby strollers should have to be folded upon getting on public transport in any case. Then it all comes down to whether the bus is full. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It could be argued that the equal opportunity is the additional provision to ensure a wheelchair user can get on a bus. By making that provision it has been ensured that, if there is space available, people may use the bus with or without a wheelchair.
If the bus is full, people have equally no opportunity. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For all the buss is full arguments.
Busses dont stop to pick new people up when theyre full  "
If they're full with standing passengers in the wheelchair area they don't allow buggies on either. I've seen that happen a couple of times. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The article I just read says it's not law, and they can't make someone get off a bus, but must request they fold the buggy. Some prams don't fold. I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
It will just be down to company policy wording now.
Companies may simply say the spaces are first come first served to bypass it all
I can't see the point in having a wheelchair area if they don't get priority. I wouldn't be allowed to park my car in a disabled space. "
Depends whos space it is.
If its the supermarket you csn, people may think youre a dick and possibly staff may ask you to move but youre not breaking a law |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It could be argued that the equal opportunity is the additional provision to ensure a wheelchair user can get on a bus. By making that provision it has been ensured that, if there is space available, people may use the bus with or without a wheelchair.
If the bus is full, people have equally no opportunity."
Pithily put |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The article I just read says it's not law, and they can't make someone get off a bus, but must request they fold the buggy. Some prams don't fold. I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
"
Some prams don't fold? Broken ones? In that case they should be replaced. I've never known any pram that doesn't fold, even the old fashioned ones do. Do you know of any that don't? |
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By *cbkellyCouple
over a year ago
sheffield |
First the lowered bus and spaces was designed originally for prams and pushchairs. It was only after someone realized a wheelchair could get in to it was offered up to them too. Second Most people in wheelchairs get mobility allowance which is ment to be used for taxis to get them from a-b. And third have anyone ever tried to fold a pushchair at the same time as holding the baby and there bags. Its not an easy thing at all. I have seen a women drop her toddler because the driver started moving before she got sorted. And yes some prams do not fold at all.
And what happens when you have a pushchair and the bus you want to get on already has 3 on it you wait for the next one its called life deal with it. Rant over |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
I make a point of loudly offering my seat to someone who needs it more than me.
How nice of you to draw attention to the person.
Im sure they wanted nothing more than a whole buss full of people gawping at them"
Well, I don't shout Oi! Old lady with the dodgy knees, would you like my seat. I just make it clear why I'm standing up and who for. If you don't, someone will jump in it before your arse is out of it. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"
I make a point of loudly offering my seat to someone who needs it more than me.
How nice of you to draw attention to the person.
Im sure they wanted nothing more than a whole buss full of people gawping at them"
More likely as case of they noticed but did not want to acknowledge and probably still wouldn't look due to the inner shame they felt. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"First the lowered bus and spaces was designed originally for prams and pushchairs. It was only after someone realized a wheelchair could get in to it was offered up to them too. Second Most people in wheelchairs get mobility allowance which is ment to be used for taxis to get them from a-b. And third have anyone ever tried to fold a pushchair at the same time as holding the baby and there bags. Its not an easy thing at all. I have seen a women drop her toddler because the driver started moving before she got sorted. And yes some prams do not fold at all.
And what happens when you have a pushchair and the bus you want to get on already has 3 on it you wait for the next one its called life deal with it. Rant over "
But isn't it lovely to have the full use of your legs? Think of the advantages you have. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"First the lowered bus and spaces was designed originally for prams and pushchairs. It was only after someone realized a wheelchair could get in to it was offered up to them too. Second Most people in wheelchairs get mobility allowance which is ment to be used for taxis to get them from a-b. And third have anyone ever tried to fold a pushchair at the same time as holding the baby and there bags. Its not an easy thing at all. I have seen a women drop her toddler because the driver started moving before she got sorted. And yes some prams do not fold at all.
And what happens when you have a pushchair and the bus you want to get on already has 3 on it you wait for the next one its called life deal with it. Rant over "
There was never any provision for people to push a buggy onto a bus. The ramps were added when they became wheelchair accessible, with a designated area. I had to fold my buggy, and get two other children on as well as a bag of shopping, sometimes. I managed, or we walked. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"First the lowered bus and spaces was designed originally for prams and pushchairs. It was only after someone realized a wheelchair could get in to it was offered up to them too. Second Most people in wheelchairs get mobility allowance which is ment to be used for taxis to get them from a-b. And third have anyone ever tried to fold a pushchair at the same time as holding the baby and there bags. Its not an easy thing at all. I have seen a women drop her toddler because the driver started moving before she got sorted. And yes some prams do not fold at all.
And what happens when you have a pushchair and the bus you want to get on already has 3 on it you wait for the next one its called life deal with it. Rant over "
By that reckoning, most people have working legs. Walk, deal with it. Rant over |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Well we can both agree that we think the other is wrong. Even to the point that you consider it off topic. I've not the energy to further engage, there's a number of threads on the MOBO awards and lack of necessity for a MOWO award thread where equal opportunity is discussed more clearly. If you'd like to understand my opinion there's a posted comedy clip on reverse racism which beautifully illustrates the point that you're trying to make about equal treatment means equal opps, and why your simplistic response in the real world context is so ridiculous (in my opinion). Thanks for your opinion. "
I recal the thread and the clip. However, an opportunity is not an outcome. In this respect the outcome would be that someone would have to disembark the bus to let someone else on, as in my example. Which is neither an equal oppotunity nor an equal outcome and would in itself be discriminatory.
And for your peace of mind, it doesnt infuriate me. Intrigues and entertains maybe.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
I make a point of loudly offering my seat to someone who needs it more than me.
How nice of you to draw attention to the person.
Im sure they wanted nothing more than a whole buss full of people gawping at them
More likely as case of they noticed but did not want to acknowledge and probably still wouldn't look due to the inner shame they felt."
People don't gawp anyway. They either ignore what's going on or get up. Most of the time the bus is packed and you have to get the attention of the person who needs the seat, because there are people blocking the view. Quite a lot of people do get up though. I've had teenagers offer me a seat, I must have looked tired |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
In NYC they have a thing called access-a-ride. Its only for elderly and disabled people. They pay the same fare as a standard bus ticket, but the bus comes directly to them, and drops them off at their destination. It has people on board to help as well.
My mother uses it (she had a leg amputated and has to use a wheelchair). You have to make an appointment in advance but she likes it. Can't something similar be set up in cities here where I imagine most problems with space arise? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Well we can both agree that we think the other is wrong. Even to the point that you consider it off topic. I've not the energy to further engage, there's a number of threads on the MOBO awards and lack of necessity for a MOWO award thread where equal opportunity is discussed more clearly. If you'd like to understand my opinion there's a posted comedy clip on reverse racism which beautifully illustrates the point that you're trying to make about equal treatment means equal opps, and why your simplistic response in the real world context is so ridiculous (in my opinion). Thanks for your opinion.
I recal the thread and the clip. However, an opportunity is not an outcome. In this respect the outcome would be that someone would have to disembark the bus to let someone else on, as in my example. Which is neither an equal oppotunity nor an equal outcome and would in itself be discriminatory.
And for your peace of mind, it doesnt infuriate me. Intrigues and entertains maybe. "
They wouldn't necessarily have to disembark, just fold their buggy and sit down with the baby or child. It's more difficult with babies as you have to hold them, but someone usually helps out. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"First the lowered bus and spaces was designed originally for prams and pushchairs. It was only after someone realized a wheelchair could get in to it was offered up to them too. Second Most people in wheelchairs get mobility allowance which is ment to be used for taxis to get them from a-b. And third have anyone ever tried to fold a pushchair at the same time as holding the baby and there bags. Its not an easy thing at all. I have seen a women drop her toddler because the driver started moving before she got sorted. And yes some prams do not fold at all.
And what happens when you have a pushchair and the bus you want to get on already has 3 on it you wait for the next one its called life deal with it. Rant over "
I don't know the ins and outs of disability rights, but I know there aren't an awful amount of taxis that cater for wheelchairs so buses can be far more convenient.
There's also the different of the parent had the choice to have a child, the person in the wheelchair more than likely didn't have the choice to end up in one, so why should they not be given priority? It is fairly simple to fold a pushchair down and I've never known of any that don't fold down, most can't just hop out of their wheelchair and collapse it, so they are able to get on the bus. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In NYC they have a thing called access-a-ride. Its only for elderly and disabled people. They pay the same fare as a standard bus ticket, but the bus comes directly to them, and drops them off at their destination. It has people on board to help as well.
My mother uses it (she had a leg amputated and has to use a wheelchair). You have to make an appointment in advance but she likes it. Can't something similar be set up in cities here where I imagine most problems with space arise?"
We have dial a ride, but it's not useful for people who want to get about town daily, like non-disabled people do. |
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Southern trains aren't providing assistance to all disabled people that need it at many stations now that they're pushing for trains without staff to close doors and provide support - it's partly behind staff striking.
Access to services and transport should be freely and easily available - It's galling when we're providing public money for them to make profits.
People should always provide support for others wherever, including buses and anywhere public. I see many young and fit people on the underground sitting in seats that are prioritised for disabled. Totally different to my upbringing and values.
I'm glad this court case was won and especially if it imposes pressure on transport providers to care for less able people. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In NYC they have a thing called access-a-ride. Its only for elderly and disabled people. They pay the same fare as a standard bus ticket, but the bus comes directly to them, and drops them off at their destination. It has people on board to help as well.
My mother uses it (she had a leg amputated and has to use a wheelchair). You have to make an appointment in advance but she likes it. Can't something similar be set up in cities here where I imagine most problems with space arise?"
Like Dial-a-Ride
Which sounds way more fun than it looks. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Well we can both agree that we think the other is wrong. Even to the point that you consider it off topic. I've not the energy to further engage, there's a number of threads on the MOBO awards and lack of necessity for a MOWO award thread where equal opportunity is discussed more clearly. If you'd like to understand my opinion there's a posted comedy clip on reverse racism which beautifully illustrates the point that you're trying to make about equal treatment means equal opps, and why your simplistic response in the real world context is so ridiculous (in my opinion). Thanks for your opinion.
I recal the thread and the clip. However, an opportunity is not an outcome. In this respect the outcome would be that someone would have to disembark the bus to let someone else on, as in my example. Which is neither an equal oppotunity nor an equal outcome and would in itself be discriminatory.
And for your peace of mind, it doesnt infuriate me. Intrigues and entertains maybe. "
I'm responding to your comment to Lickety of :
".....You are pro 'different inputs to create the same output' and I'm more 'give everyone the same input and they make if it what they will'......"
Your concept in that comment is absolutely not what equal opportunities is about.
Glad it's entertaining |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Well we can both agree that we think the other is wrong. Even to the point that you consider it off topic. I've not the energy to further engage, there's a number of threads on the MOBO awards and lack of necessity for a MOWO award thread where equal opportunity is discussed more clearly. If you'd like to understand my opinion there's a posted comedy clip on reverse racism which beautifully illustrates the point that you're trying to make about equal treatment means equal opps, and why your simplistic response in the real world context is so ridiculous (in my opinion). Thanks for your opinion.
I recal the thread and the clip. However, an opportunity is not an outcome. In this respect the outcome would be that someone would have to disembark the bus to let someone else on, as in my example. Which is neither an equal oppotunity nor an equal outcome and would in itself be discriminatory.
And for your peace of mind, it doesnt infuriate me. Intrigues and entertains maybe.
They wouldn't necessarily have to disembark, just fold their buggy and sit down with the baby or child. It's more difficult with babies as you have to hold them, but someone usually helps out. "
What if there nowhere else to sit? Like in the example in my first post?
Like I also said. I'm playing devils advocate. I'm a father. I've been on public transport with a buggy and yes, it's a pain to try and fold a buggy and hold a child at the same time, but I'm not a prick so I managed it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In NYC they have a thing called access-a-ride. Its only for elderly and disabled people. They pay the same fare as a standard bus ticket, but the bus comes directly to them, and drops them off at their destination. It has people on board to help as well.
My mother uses it (she had a leg amputated and has to use a wheelchair). You have to make an appointment in advance but she likes it. Can't something similar be set up in cities here where I imagine most problems with space arise?
We have dial a ride, but it's not useful for people who want to get about town daily, like non-disabled people do. "
I don't know the specifics of it but my mom gets around daily with it, and I know others who use it every day as well (access-a-ride, I mean). I'm not sure why dial a ride would be any different?
Anyway, I do think strollers should just have to be folded. I just also think that if things like dial a ride were promoted more or made more user friendly then the problem of wheelchair vs. stroller on a bus would occur less? I dunno. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In NYC they have a thing called access-a-ride. Its only for elderly and disabled people. They pay the same fare as a standard bus ticket, but the bus comes directly to them, and drops them off at their destination. It has people on board to help as well.
My mother uses it (she had a leg amputated and has to use a wheelchair). You have to make an appointment in advance but she likes it. Can't something similar be set up in cities here where I imagine most problems with space arise?
We have dial a ride, but it's not useful for people who want to get about town daily, like non-disabled people do.
I don't know the specifics of it but my mom gets around daily with it, and I know others who use it every day as well (access-a-ride, I mean). I'm not sure why dial a ride would be any different?
Anyway, I do think strollers should just have to be folded. I just also think that if things like dial a ride were promoted more or made more user friendly then the problem of wheelchair vs. stroller on a bus would occur less? I dunno."
If you wanted to pop to the shops and then go to a friends, then onto the pub, you wouldn't be able to with dial a ride. They are mainly booked for hospital appointments and bingo |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"In NYC they have a thing called access-a-ride. Its only for elderly and disabled people. They pay the same fare as a standard bus ticket, but the bus comes directly to them, and drops them off at their destination. It has people on board to help as well.
My mother uses it (she had a leg amputated and has to use a wheelchair). You have to make an appointment in advance but she likes it. Can't something similar be set up in cities here where I imagine most problems with space arise?
We have dial a ride, but it's not useful for people who want to get about town daily, like non-disabled people do.
I don't know the specifics of it but my mom gets around daily with it, and I know others who use it every day as well (access-a-ride, I mean). I'm not sure why dial a ride would be any different?
Anyway, I do think strollers should just have to be folded. I just also think that if things like dial a ride were promoted more or made more user friendly then the problem of wheelchair vs. stroller on a bus would occur less? I dunno.
If you wanted to pop to the shops and then go to a friends, then onto the pub, you wouldn't be able to with dial a ride. They are mainly booked for hospital appointments and bingo "
Also, some young people travel with friends, to college and school, or work. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In NYC they have a thing called access-a-ride. Its only for elderly and disabled people. They pay the same fare as a standard bus ticket, but the bus comes directly to them, and drops them off at their destination. It has people on board to help as well.
My mother uses it (she had a leg amputated and has to use a wheelchair). You have to make an appointment in advance but she likes it. Can't something similar be set up in cities here where I imagine most problems with space arise?
We have dial a ride, but it's not useful for people who want to get about town daily, like non-disabled people do.
I don't know the specifics of it but my mom gets around daily with it, and I know others who use it every day as well (access-a-ride, I mean). I'm not sure why dial a ride would be any different?
Anyway, I do think strollers should just have to be folded. I just also think that if things like dial a ride were promoted more or made more user friendly then the problem of wheelchair vs. stroller on a bus would occur less? I dunno.
If you wanted to pop to the shops and then go to a friends, then onto the pub, you wouldn't be able to with dial a ride. They are mainly booked for hospital appointments and bingo
Also, some young people travel with friends, to college and school, or work. "
The people I know go shopping and everything on access-a-ride. But yeah, they can only have one person accompany them, I think. So I see your point about friends. And having to pre-book is a pain. I was just thinking out loud - thanks for explaining |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In NYC they have a thing called access-a-ride. Its only for elderly and disabled people. They pay the same fare as a standard bus ticket, but the bus comes directly to them, and drops them off at their destination. It has people on board to help as well.
My mother uses it (she had a leg amputated and has to use a wheelchair). You have to make an appointment in advance but she likes it. Can't something similar be set up in cities here where I imagine most problems with space arise?
We have dial a ride, but it's not useful for people who want to get about town daily, like non-disabled people do.
I don't know the specifics of it but my mom gets around daily with it, and I know others who use it every day as well (access-a-ride, I mean). I'm not sure why dial a ride would be any different?
Anyway, I do think strollers should just have to be folded. I just also think that if things like dial a ride were promoted more or made more user friendly then the problem of wheelchair vs. stroller on a bus would occur less? I dunno.
If you wanted to pop to the shops and then go to a friends, then onto the pub, you wouldn't be able to with dial a ride. They are mainly booked for hospital appointments and bingo
Also, some young people travel with friends, to college and school, or work.
The people I know go shopping and everything on access-a-ride. But yeah, they can only have one person accompany them, I think. So I see your point about friends. And having to pre-book is a pain. I was just thinking out loud - thanks for explaining "
I've just looked on their website and you can't book them for hospital appointments or work, and they are free, but extremely busy, so you may not get a ride, or only part of the way. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In NYC they have a thing called access-a-ride. Its only for elderly and disabled people. They pay the same fare as a standard bus ticket, but the bus comes directly to them, and drops them off at their destination. It has people on board to help as well.
My mother uses it (she had a leg amputated and has to use a wheelchair). You have to make an appointment in advance but she likes it. Can't something similar be set up in cities here where I imagine most problems with space arise?
We have dial a ride, but it's not useful for people who want to get about town daily, like non-disabled people do.
I don't know the specifics of it but my mom gets around daily with it, and I know others who use it every day as well (access-a-ride, I mean). I'm not sure why dial a ride would be any different?
Anyway, I do think strollers should just have to be folded. I just also think that if things like dial a ride were promoted more or made more user friendly then the problem of wheelchair vs. stroller on a bus would occur less? I dunno.
If you wanted to pop to the shops and then go to a friends, then onto the pub, you wouldn't be able to with dial a ride. They are mainly booked for hospital appointments and bingo
Also, some young people travel with friends, to college and school, or work.
The people I know go shopping and everything on access-a-ride. But yeah, they can only have one person accompany them, I think. So I see your point about friends. And having to pre-book is a pain. I was just thinking out loud - thanks for explaining
I've just looked on their website and you can't book them for hospital appointments or work, and they are free, but extremely busy, so you may not get a ride, or only part of the way. "
Oh. You can't book them for work? Interesting.
Just ignore me then. I clearly don't have enough knowledge about this in the UK. |
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By *ENGUYMan
over a year ago
Hull |
"
The spaces on London buses are marked as wheelchair priority. I don't know if that's the same for buses outside London.
"
As of this month, all buses in Public service use across the UK, MUST have space marked as wheelchair priority, under Disability Discrimination Act regs.
All buses must be low floor, step access is no longer permissible and there is a raft of other regs too.
Up here in Hull, drivers of the two providers of bus services on the city, have been asking people to fold buggies if wheelchair access is needed, for well over a year.... and people comply with said request. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
The spaces on London buses are marked as wheelchair priority. I don't know if that's the same for buses outside London.
As of this month, all buses in Public service use across the UK, MUST have space marked as wheelchair priority, under Disability Discrimination Act regs.
All buses must be low floor, step access is no longer permissible and there is a raft of other regs too.
Up here in Hull, drivers of the two providers of bus services on the city, have been asking people to fold buggies if wheelchair access is needed, for well over a year.... and people comply with said request."
They do have the spaces, clearly marked. The problem is people not moving, for the wheelchair. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Easy solution. Ensure you can afford a car before having babies. "
Not everyone drives. I didn't drive until I was 29. I walked or folded my buggy. Imagine how bad the traffic would be during rush hour, with extra cars on the roads. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Easy solution. Ensure you can afford a car before having babies.
Not everyone drives. I didn't drive until I was 29. I walked or folded my buggy. Imagine how bad the traffic would be during rush hour, with extra cars on the roads. "
It'd be fine, because it would have reduced the surplus population. And I may not be being entirely serious. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Easy solution. Ensure you can afford a car before having babies.
Not everyone drives. I didn't drive until I was 29. I walked or folded my buggy. Imagine how bad the traffic would be during rush hour, with extra cars on the roads.
It'd be fine, because it would have reduced the surplus population. And I may not be being entirely serious. "
I would give up and walk, the roads would be gridlocked. Can't wait for hover trains to be invented. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Easy solution. Ensure you can afford a car before having babies.
Not everyone drives. I didn't drive until I was 29. I walked or folded my buggy. Imagine how bad the traffic would be during rush hour, with extra cars on the roads.
It'd be fine, because it would have reduced the surplus population. And I may not be being entirely serious.
I would give up and walk, the roads would be gridlocked. Can't wait for hover trains to be invented. "
I want a hoover train, tidies as it goes. |
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"It could be argued that the equal opportunity is the additional provision to ensure a wheelchair user can get on a bus. By making that provision it has been ensured that, if there is space available, people may use the bus with or without a wheelchair.
If the bus is full, people have equally no opportunity."
But able bodied people get the majority of the bus to use. Wheelchair users don't and so are still at a disadvantage to other people.... Is this just another 'tough shit' scenario?! We've made provision but as you weren't at the right stop to ensure it was used before someone else got there you're going to have to wait and hope that the next bus is less full. Perhaps disabled people should get on buses from the depot when they are nice and empty so they can be less of an inconvenience to people?
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"Easy solution. Ensure you can afford a car before having babies. "
I could afford a car but an epileptic so not able to have a license. I'm sure there are others in a similar posturing does that mean I had no right to become a mother because I was/am unable to drive? |
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"First the lowered bus and spaces was designed originally for prams and pushchairs. It was only after someone realized a wheelchair could get in to it was offered up to them too. Second Most people in wheelchairs get mobility allowance which is ment to be used for taxis to get them from a-b. And third have anyone ever tried to fold a pushchair at the same time as holding the baby and there bags. Its not an easy thing at all. I have seen a women drop her toddler because the driver started moving before she got sorted. And yes some prams do not fold at all.
And what happens when you have a pushchair and the bus you want to get on already has 3 on it you wait for the next one its called life deal with it. Rant over "
My mother managed to use buses with twins in a double pushchair, a four year old and her shopping. What makes parents these days unable to cope? A sense of entitlement and laziness! |
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"It could be argued that the equal opportunity is the additional provision to ensure a wheelchair user can get on a bus. By making that provision it has been ensured that, if there is space available, people may use the bus with or without a wheelchair.
If the bus is full, people have equally no opportunity.
But able bodied people get the majority of the bus to use. Wheelchair users don't and so are still at a disadvantage to other people.... Is this just another 'tough shit' scenario?! We've made provision but as you weren't at the right stop to ensure it was used before someone else got there you're going to have to wait and hope that the next bus is less full. Perhaps disabled people should get on buses from the depot when they are nice and empty so they can be less of an inconvenience to people?
"
One of my ex partners was a wheelchair user he would always wait if the space on the bus was full. He used to say he liked to be treated as an equal and if the bus was full for any able bodied person then they would have to wait for the next one, so he had no problems doing the same. He never saw that space as his "right" it was merely there if available.
Suppose it depends on the person perspective of equal opportunities |
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"First the lowered bus and spaces was designed originally for prams and pushchairs. It was only after someone realized a wheelchair could get in to it was offered up to them too. Second Most people in wheelchairs get mobility allowance which is ment to be used for taxis to get them from a-b. And third have anyone ever tried to fold a pushchair at the same time as holding the baby and there bags. Its not an easy thing at all. I have seen a women drop her toddler because the driver started moving before she got sorted. And yes some prams do not fold at all.
And what happens when you have a pushchair and the bus you want to get on already has 3 on it you wait for the next one its called life deal with it. Rant over
My mother managed to use buses with twins in a double pushchair, a four year old and her shopping. What makes parents these days unable to cope? A sense of entitlement and laziness!"
Now I'm a bus user and mother to twins. I've never taken issue being asked to move for a wheelchair user and it does happen regularly as there's a lady in a wheel chair that uses the stop after mine. There was one occasion when the twins were 3 weeks old and the bus was full of mainly teenagers because of the morning school run, I was asked to collapse, which was fair enough but no one would help to just hold the babies for a moment while I got the pram down as it wasn't a particularly easy one to fold down as it was large it was a two hand job. After struggling to suppor babies and finally fold it no one would move to allow me to sit so it meant standing with two new norms getting jerked left and right struggling to balance to stand and keep babies safe in the end the only person to help was the wheelchair user she sat holding them for me so I could stand safely until the school kids piled off and there was a seat available. Luckily I was never in that position again while they were new borns but it wasn't easy and I'm glad I had. I shopping at the time |
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By *AM2214Man
over a year ago
Manchester Area |
"It could be argued that the equal opportunity is the additional provision to ensure a wheelchair user can get on a bus. By making that provision it has been ensured that, if there is space available, people may use the bus with or without a wheelchair.
Many for.er colleaguea are wheelchair bound a.d they hve a similar rationale...space on the bus ...get on ...no space ..wait for the next one like anyone else...the issue appears to have been caused by two 'extremes' firstly bad manners on the part of the lady who refused to fold her pram/trolley...secondly the insistence that 'i demand a space' ...Its the same with 'disabled toilets' they are not soley for disabled people..they are 'accessible' due to a medical co dition i iften NEED to go the loo ASAP so i use the first avaialable toilet ...before anyone shouts too loudly i do believe in good manners a.d actually gave up my seat on the tram twoce last night once for an elderly lady then for a lady who appeared out of breath ..ironocally as i did the latter a heavily pregnant lady got on the tram and i ensured she got a seat
If the bus is full, people have equally no opportunity.
But able bodied people get the majority of the bus to use. Wheelchair users don't and so are still at a disadvantage to other people.... Is this just another 'tough shit' scenario?! We've made provision but as you weren't at the right stop to ensure it was used before someone else got there you're going to have to wait and hope that the next bus is less full. Perhaps disabled people should get on buses from the depot when they are nice and empty so they can be less of an inconvenience to people?
One of my ex partners was a wheelchair user he would always wait if the space on the bus was full. He used to say he liked to be treated as an equal and if the bus was full for any able bodied person then they would have to wait for the next one, so he had no problems doing the same. He never saw that space as his "right" it was merely there if available.
Suppose it depends on the person perspective of equal opportunities "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I used to ride buses to work when i worked in Cardiff. Never saw a wheelchair user on a bus then as the buses were not wheelchair friendly, they had steps and pole in the middle so the entrance to bus was quite narrow.
Standing on a bus holding a small child in your arms is not ideal, some bus drivers drive quite fast and take corners like they are the Stig. They need to be able to sit. So someone able bodied should give up a seat for them, in my opinion.
Of course wheelchair users should get priority, and the elderly.
In my past experience, it was actually the elderly who mostly sat in disabled seats (they were just ordinary seats but located right at the front) and trying to get them to move for someone who was blind and had a seeing dog, was quite awkward to watch.
Obviously the bus styles have now changed, but peoples mindset has not. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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This law is good, not sure it is law though, i think one guy won his case and set a precedent?
I like it when our society prioritises the vulnerable. I do understand children are also vulnerable but also with an adult, so not so much.
We have some clear prejudices against the disabled still and these need sorting.
Disabled people can be able as much as an able bodied person, but sometimes they need preferential treatment, acceptance, and allowances. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"First the lowered bus and spaces was designed originally for prams and pushchairs. It was only after someone realized a wheelchair could get in to it was offered up to them too. Second Most people in wheelchairs get mobility allowance which is ment to be used for taxis to get them from a-b. And third have anyone ever tried to fold a pushchair at the same time as holding the baby and there bags. Its not an easy thing at all. I have seen a women drop her toddler because the driver started moving before she got sorted. And yes some prams do not fold at all.
And what happens when you have a pushchair and the bus you want to get on already has 3 on it you wait for the next one its called life deal with it. Rant over
My mother managed to use buses with twins in a double pushchair, a four year old and her shopping. What makes parents these days unable to cope? A sense of entitlement and laziness!"
I had 4 kids and 2 were in a double buggy. I couldn't cope using buses so just stopped using them. And this was when i was living in wigan and the people were really helpful and old ladies were always willing to nick my kids off me for a cuddle.
One time the bus driver pulled away while we was trying to get to some seats and my 6 yr old fell over, many of the other passengers had a go at the bus driver for not waiting for us to be sat down.
The buses tended to be always packed then, don't even know if anyone disabled would've managed either. Was just easier to traipse a few miles into town or go the local retail park. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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why dont we just put towing hooks on the back. im sure you could hitch about five wheelchairs or pushchairs across the back of a bus. evan mor if you link them together  |
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"why dont we just put towing hooks on the back. im sure you could hitch about five wheelchairs or pushchairs across the back of a bus. evan mor if you link them together "
Yeah cause that joke hasn't been made at least twice further up! |
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"why dont we just put towing hooks on the back. im sure you could hitch about five wheelchairs or pushchairs across the back of a bus. evan mor if you link them together
Yeah cause that joke hasn't been made at least twice further up!
didnt read the whole thread only the top couple of lines same thing us men do with profiles "
Yes... that much was clear.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"First the lowered bus and spaces was designed originally for prams and pushchairs. It was only after someone realized a wheelchair could get in to it was offered up to them too.
Incorrect.
Second Most people in wheelchairs get mobility allowance which is ment to be used for taxis to get them from a-b.
Incorrect.
And third have anyone ever tried to fold a pushchair at the same time as holding the baby and there bags. Its not an easy thing at all. I have seen a women drop her toddler because the driver started moving before she got sorted. And yes some prams do not fold at all.
And what happens when you have a pushchair and the bus you want to get on already has 3 on it you wait for the next one its called life deal with it. Rant over "
Having a baby is a choice, being disabled isn't. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"People don't give up seats full stop anymore. At 34 weeks heavily pregnant and barely able to walk, daily, I stand on the bus to work because it appears I'm invisible.
"
FWIW, I give up my seat to a pregnant woman if she asks, but I wouldn't just give it up without request. Pregnancy is not a disability. In many places around the world people work doing physical labour until they give birth.
It's different, of course, if someone has a temporary illness that goes along with their pregnancy - and in that situation I'd expect someone to say 'can I use the priority seat please?' to the person who is sitting in it.
I know it can be difficult. After I had a car accident I damaged my quadricep and struggled to stand for longer than ten minutes or so. Busses and tubes were almost impossible because of the motion. But I generally found that if you asked, people gave the seat up without question. (Except the one time someone asked me to prove it.) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If you see it happen, say something about it, this country was built on politeness and respect. It's no good complaining after the fact, you got to call out bad behaviour, if people are going to sit by and make injustice happen then it flourishes. The reason why people dictate things such as this is because we need to be reminded, when in actual fact we should be doing something ourselves. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The article I just read says it's not law, and they can't make someone get off a bus, but must request they fold the buggy. Some prams don't fold. I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
"
I mean, I am hesitant of any kind of classist action. In most places it's usually the poorer end of society that tend to use busses (I'm in Oxford, so I'm totally the exception here in terms of geography). If you have no money, you use what you're given - and that might mean a non-folding pushchair. Barring access to public transport because someone can't afford the right kind of push chair would be wrong - of course.
But as with everything, human kindness and judgement of individual situations is key. |
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By *ucyfur77Woman
over a year ago
Pleasuretown |
"On the radio earlier they mentioned that now wheelchairs will not be refused if there is no room, due to pushchairs being in the space. Drivers are being told to not just ask, but to ensure that people move out of the space for a wheelchair user.
Is it just me that thinks this should have always been the case? As a parent of 3, I would never refuse, or not be expected, to fold my pushchair up to allow a wheelchair user in the space.
I was shocked to hear that in something has clearly being said for this to be enforced, what is happening to common decency. Being in a wheelchair is something they need, a pushchair can easily be folded and a child held; of course there priority clearly goes to the wheelchair user. "
http://billsinsider.com/2017/01/19/258591-disabled-man-wins-legal-fight-over-bus-access/
On local buses up here, the floor is marked for wheelchair and buggy but its still a bit of a free-for-all
And I have heard people say they can't/won't put their buggy down
Buses here are full when downstairs standing is at full capacity
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"On the radio earlier they mentioned that now wheelchairs will not be refused if there is no room, due to pushchairs being in the space. Drivers are being told to not just ask, but to ensure that people move out of the space for a wheelchair user.
Is it just me that thinks this should have always been the case? As a parent of 3, I would never refuse, or not be expected, to fold my pushchair up to allow a wheelchair user in the space.
I was shocked to hear that in something has clearly being said for this to be enforced, what is happening to common decency. Being in a wheelchair is something they need, a pushchair can easily be folded and a child held; of course there priority clearly goes to the wheelchair user. "
As someone who worked in public transport management, I can assure you there is nothing more awkward or selfish to deal with than a young female in charge of a pushchair on a bus.
My tongue still has the bite marks..... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"And this thread is why I hate people. "
I was shocked that something like this needed to go to court, but after reading some comments I no longer an. I hope it is enforced and those that require the area are granted it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's a no brainer to most people. If a child in a pushchair has special needs or a disability then the bus companies provide specific passes for them. Able bodied everyone should move. "
You can get one of these bus passes, in my area it's called a NOW card. I only found out through my sons school when he turned 15. It covers many disabilities also.
Not sure what age you can get them from as i do know the state doesn't seem to support disabled babies under 3. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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For what it's worth, most times I've been on a bus people do give up their seats for other people who need them more, help people fold buggies etc. But I have seen pairs of women with buggies rudley turfing very elderly people out of the accessible seats, which also seems a bit off to me. Some people think that the entire world revolves around them and their child and their need to get to go shopping. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I once informed a packed carriage of Parisian commuters I would pull the emergency communication cord if they failed to part their arses to assist a female passenger struggling to alight the train with her buggy and two small children.....
It worked ....  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Southern trains aren't providing assistance to all disabled people that need it at many stations now that they're pushing for trains without staff to close doors and provide support - it's partly behind staff striking.
"
Fun fact.
Southern rail are doing no such thing.
They are not removing staff they are not going to driver only trains.
What they are doing is wanting to update the stock so that the doors are controlled by the driver as opposed to a seperate switch operated by the conductor.
The conductor is still there.
In fact one of the reasons the company has given for doing this is so that the conductors have the time to help disabled people as they dont have to check and clear the doors.
The union is striking as they feel this is a reduction in responsibilities for the conductor and could lead to lower pay in future. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The article I just read says it's not law, and they can't make someone get off a bus, but must request they fold the buggy. Some prams don't fold. I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
I mean, I am hesitant of any kind of classist action. In most places it's usually the poorer end of society that tend to use busses (I'm in Oxford, so I'm totally the exception here in terms of geography). If you have no money, you use what you're given - and that might mean a non-folding pushchair. Barring access to public transport because someone can't afford the right kind of push chair would be wrong - of course.
But as with everything, human kindness and judgement of individual situations is key."
The only non folding chsirs ive ever seen are the super expensive fashion statement ones. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The article I just read says it's not law, and they can't make someone get off a bus, but must request they fold the buggy. Some prams don't fold. I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
I mean, I am hesitant of any kind of classist action. In most places it's usually the poorer end of society that tend to use busses (I'm in Oxford, so I'm totally the exception here in terms of geography). If you have no money, you use what you're given - and that might mean a non-folding pushchair. Barring access to public transport because someone can't afford the right kind of push chair would be wrong - of course.
But as with everything, human kindness and judgement of individual situations is key."
People are not given pushchairs, they buy them from benefits, if they are not working. Poor people buy the cheap, folding ones, not the upper end ones that you have to disassemble. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The article I just read says it's not law, and they can't make someone get off a bus, but must request they fold the buggy. Some prams don't fold. I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
I mean, I am hesitant of any kind of classist action. In most places it's usually the poorer end of society that tend to use busses (I'm in Oxford, so I'm totally the exception here in terms of geography). If you have no money, you use what you're given - and that might mean a non-folding pushchair. Barring access to public transport because someone can't afford the right kind of push chair would be wrong - of course.
But as with everything, human kindness and judgement of individual situations is key.
The only non folding chsirs ive ever seen are the super expensive fashion statement ones. "
Exactly, and they take up a lot of room. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The article I just read says it's not law, and they can't make someone get off a bus, but must request they fold the buggy. Some prams don't fold. I would suggest only allowing foldable buggies on, with the stipulation that they must be folded, if needed.
I mean, I am hesitant of any kind of classist action. In most places it's usually the poorer end of society that tend to use busses (I'm in Oxford, so I'm totally the exception here in terms of geography). If you have no money, you use what you're given - and that might mean a non-folding pushchair. Barring access to public transport because someone can't afford the right kind of push chair would be wrong - of course.
But as with everything, human kindness and judgement of individual situations is key.
People are not given pushchairs, they buy them from benefits, if they are not working. Poor people buy the cheap, folding ones, not the upper end ones that you have to disassemble. "
Unless, of course, you get it from a charity shop, or a family member gives it to you, or any other number of ways that you might acquire something that is not quite fit for your purpose.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It could be argued that the equal opportunity is the additional provision to ensure a wheelchair user can get on a bus. By making that provision it has been ensured that, if there is space available, people may use the bus with or without a wheelchair.
If the bus is full, people have equally no opportunity.
But able bodied people get the majority of the bus to use. Wheelchair users don't and so are still at a disadvantage to other people.... Is this just another 'tough shit' scenario?! We've made provision but as you weren't at the right stop to ensure it was used before someone else got there you're going to have to wait and hope that the next bus is less full. Perhaps disabled people should get on buses from the depot when they are nice and empty so they can be less of an inconvenience to people?
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I think you entered rant mode before checking you understood the point. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There are wankers in wheelchairs, just as much as there are wankers in every element of society but the demonization of parents with buggies maybe needs to be tempered by considering how unhelpful people are (particularly staff) to people struggling with young kids, and all that entails.
That along with people with attitudes like 'shouldn't have kids unless you can afford a car' and 'I won't give up my seat unless an obviously pregnant woman asks' perhaps explains why people are generally not that cooperative. |
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"Some days I really hate people.
How much of a twat do you have to be to watch someone struggle to fold down a pushchair whilst juggling two babies and not lend a hand?
I hate the world sometimes. "
I've luckily never been in that situation again as if I've collapsed as they were getting older people have assisted me, it was just one occasion I was left to struggle, but it was particularly annoying as I would have helped had roles been reserved, a bit of curtesy and kindness should never be too much trouble |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think it is a shame that the outcome was not that the bus companies have to provide more spaces for both disabled and prams. It is not a simple answer. I know people who go out a wheeelchair who would be capable of transferring to a seat and folding their wheelchair up. I also know there are some situations where it is not practical to fold a buggie or pram up, for example a parent in their own with young multiple children (say for example 2 month old twins) or if the pram is laden with shopping. It is also a shame there are no longer bus conductors as this is the sort of thing they could have assisted with. |
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