FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > The Right To Strike
The Right To Strike
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Everyone should have the right to strike and do with their labour as they wish.
Does everyone have a right to employment with wages at a decent living wage?"
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one? 
ha ha all of course  "
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The right to strike should only be removed in very exceptional circumstances.
Most workers should be entitled to the right to strike. However the public are similarly entitled to disagree, complain and lose sympathy. |
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The right to strike is part of free will, of course a government can remove that, the right to vote as well, but there are plenty of fascist/dictator run states in the world if people like those sorts of places to live |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ? "
no they counter strike |
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The only time the right to strike should be removed is if there is legally enforable binding arbitration on both sides
Otherwise you just end up with employers cutting pay constantly and losing good staff etc
You've only got to see what's happening in the NHS to see how that's going |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike "
No winners in that one then.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then.. "
depends what there striking for |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for"
For example ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Its a free(ish) country and the right to withhold your labour should be allowed without retribution. Exceptions of course apply to national security or emergency situations and matters concerning emergency health care provision.
If the post is in reaction to Mr Grayling trying to prevent rail workers from with holding labour then I would just point out his political allegiances and aspirations! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
If the post is in reaction to Mr Grayling trying to prevent rail workers from with holding labour then I would just point out his political allegiances and aspirations!"
It's just a topical discussion .... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for
For example ? "
scenario sceanario hmm ok management striking for ? and il get the workers out |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for
For example ?
scenario sceanario hmm ok management striking for ? and il get the workers out "
OK Managers striking because workers wont accept essential changes to working practice that will save the company from bankruptcy ......  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Argos delivery drivers announce 72 hour strike starting 20 December.... "
See this kind of thing makes me think their union is advising them very poorly. Of course the point of a strike is to cause maximum disruption. But this is a scenario where people would say "well fuck that, I'll buy it somewhere else". So what will that strike achieve other than probably job losses if it hits the firms pre-Christmas sales? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for
For example ?
scenario sceanario hmm ok management striking for ? and il get the workers out
OK Managers striking because workers wont accept essential changes to working practice that will save the company from bankruptcy ...... "
ok all out for non conformity to contract then we will negotiate  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for
For example ?
scenario sceanario hmm ok management striking for ? and il get the workers out
OK Managers striking because workers wont accept essential changes to working practice that will save the company from bankruptcy ......
ok all out for non conformity to contract then we will negotiate "
But you cant negotiate the mathematics of profit and loss...... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I can see further restrictions coming on union activities in light of the Southern Rail fiasco.
The union were on the Today program and didn't really have a cogent reason as to why they were striking.
The general public have lost sympathy for them and rightly so after a year.
Sack the fuckers. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Everyone including Police and Armed forces should have the right to strike, especially when it is about staff cuts or safety shortcuts.
However to mitigate the chaos independent arbitration should be a pre strike requirement.
What's more it should be a requirement on companies that a work to rule has limited damaging impact on the business, and staff employed can live in the vicinity of the business without tax payer supplements in the form of benefits. If that means cleaners earn £150,000 a year to work in central London then so what, the business can pay them or move somewhere cheaper... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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so what if I decided to go on strike,,as in I'm not gonna look all gorgeous n glamorous for 4 days,,pah,,all hell would break lose,,you just cant go on strike |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"so what if I decided to go on strike,,as in I'm not gonna look all gorgeous n glamorous for 4 days,,pah,,all hell would break lose,,you just cant go on strike "
People would start calling you Soxy...  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"so what if I decided to go on strike,,as in I'm not gonna look all gorgeous n glamorous for 4 days,,pah,,all hell would break lose,,you just cant go on strike
People would start calling you Soxy... "
well there ya go,,says it all,,debate over  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for
For example ?
scenario sceanario hmm ok management striking for ? and il get the workers out
OK Managers striking because workers wont accept essential changes to working practice that will save the company from bankruptcy ......
ok all out for non conformity to contract then we will negotiate
But you cant negotiate the mathematics of profit and loss...... "
then we are out till we can |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"These strikes are just the TUC testing the water.
They have their man Corbyn at the head of the labour party, and are just ramping things up for a campaign of industrial action."
Most of the chaos has been caused by an overtime ban and work to rule, which means the company are putting the publics lives at risk for extra profit.
Everyone is quick to point the finger when there is an accident, and not bother to notice the driver has clocked up an average 60+ hours a week before falling asleep at the controls. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for
For example ?
scenario sceanario hmm ok management striking for ? and il get the workers out
OK Managers striking because workers wont accept essential changes to working practice that will save the company from bankruptcy ......
ok all out for non conformity to contract then we will negotiate
But you cant negotiate the mathematics of profit and loss......
then we are out till we can "
Only until the owner/shareholders call time on the loss making company then what have you achieved ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for
For example ?
scenario sceanario hmm ok management striking for ? and il get the workers out
OK Managers striking because workers wont accept essential changes to working practice that will save the company from bankruptcy ......
ok all out for non conformity to contract then we will negotiate
But you cant negotiate the mathematics of profit and loss......
then we are out till we can
Only until the owner/shareholders call time on the loss making company then what have you achieved ? "
Our rights |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Imagine if us shop folk went out on strike..and you couldn't buy your lube condoms, heels, rope, lipstick, g-strings, milk, light bulbs, shoe laces, jazz mags, cigarettes, gin, chocolate...there would be anarchy. |
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"They have their man Corbyn at the head of the labour party, and are just ramping things up for a campaign of industrial action."
Not sure what Corbyn has to do with it he's one of the very few politicians with pinciples.
It seems to have passed most people by but the entire economic system is geared to distributing the proceeds of globalisation upwards and its costs downwards.
People have to accept that the current form of capitalism is failing the 99%. Gains from both technological progress and globalisation flow more to the rich than the poor.
We have to redistribute wealth downwards instead of upwards. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for
For example ?
scenario sceanario hmm ok management striking for ? and il get the workers out
OK Managers striking because workers wont accept essential changes to working practice that will save the company from bankruptcy ......
ok all out for non conformity to contract then we will negotiate
But you cant negotiate the mathematics of profit and loss......
then we are out till we can
Only until the owner/shareholders call time on the loss making company then what have you achieved ?
Our rights "
Don't forget to pour pride-gravy on them to make them more palatable and easier to swallow... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for
For example ?
scenario sceanario hmm ok management striking for ? and il get the workers out
OK Managers striking because workers wont accept essential changes to working practice that will save the company from bankruptcy ......
ok all out for non conformity to contract then we will negotiate
But you cant negotiate the mathematics of profit and loss......
then we are out till we can
Only until the owner/shareholders call time on the loss making company then what have you achieved ?
Our rights
Don't forget to pour pride-gravy on them to make them more palatable and easier to swallow... "
its all gravy baby |
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"
What's more it should be a requirement on companies that a work to rule has limited damaging impact on the business, and staff employed can live in the vicinity of the business without tax payer supplements in the form of benefits. If that means cleaners earn £150,000 a year to work in central London then so what, the business can pay them or move somewhere cheaper... "
If housing benefit was capped at a sensible level, then this would happen automatically. The company would be unable to hire staff at a low rate and the pay would settle at an appropriate level. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"everybody should have equal rights
So is that a vote for everyone or no-one?
ha ha all of course
OK so would that means if the owners or management of a company decide to go on strike the workers of that company just have too suck it up and take whatever consequences come their way .... ?
no they counter strike
No winners in that one then..
depends what there striking for
For example ?
scenario sceanario hmm ok management striking for ? and il get the workers out
OK Managers striking because workers wont accept essential changes to working practice that will save the company from bankruptcy ......
ok all out for non conformity to contract then we will negotiate
But you cant negotiate the mathematics of profit and loss......
then we are out till we can
Only until the owner/shareholders call time on the loss making company then what have you achieved ?
Our rights
Don't forget to pour pride-gravy on them to make them more palatable and easier to swallow...
its all gravy baby "
I'm a veggie, I prefer a cheese sauce... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
The last 40 years have seen the creditor class avoid the push by labour for a bigger share in the profits, that was the whole point of the freeing up of international credit control and business... It gave them the ability to say... Fuck you, if you don't like what we give you we'll just pack up and go to China or Vietnam or turkey or Poland or Mexico.... It's the main reason why we've seen the huge huge massive profits from businesses in the last 40 years go to the very top 0.01% of the people, labour no longer has any leverage... The long term effects is that the purchases of products have had to take on massive debt to purchase the stuff were making because they don't earn enough of the profits.
The long term effects of that were now suffering from! |
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"The last 40 years have seen the creditor class avoid the push by labour for a bigger share in the profits, that was the whole point of the freeing up of international credit control and business... It gave them the ability to say... Fuck you, if you don't like what we give you we'll just pack up and go to China or Vietnam or turkey or Poland or Mexico.... It's the main reason why we've seen the huge huge massive profits from businesses in the last 40 years go to the very top 0.01% of the people, labour no longer has any leverage... The long term effects is that the purchases of products have had to take on massive debt to purchase the stuff were making because they don't earn enough of the profits.
The long term effects of that were now suffering from!"
You don't need to take on any debt. Just don't buy the stuff. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"These strikes are just the TUC testing the water.
They have their man Corbyn at the head of the labour party, and are just ramping things up for a campaign of industrial action.
Most of the chaos has been caused by an overtime ban and work to rule, which means the company are putting the publics lives at risk for extra profit.
Everyone is quick to point the finger when there is an accident, and not bother to notice the driver has clocked up an average 60+ hours a week before falling asleep at the controls."
The strike is down to ASLEF.being unhappy at proposals to make train drivers on Southern operate the train doors.
Something that has been going on for years in other areas (Merseyrail for one).
It's a flimsy excuse at best. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Inflation doesn't hurt the hand to mouth people as much as the creditors and savers, they're wages tend to just keep pace with inflation and in reality that leaves them static....
Whereas the ones who hate inflation are the ones with spare money, the more spare money they have the more they hate it as interest rates never keep up with inflation..... Creditors absolutely detest it as it makes there borrowings very very unprofitable.
.
For anyone that is in doubt... They've managed to dump 16 trillion into the system via QE without a hint of inflation?.
So where did that 16 trillion go to cause no inflation? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The last 40 years have seen the creditor class avoid the push by labour for a bigger share in the profits, that was the whole point of the freeing up of international credit control and business... It gave them the ability to say... Fuck you, if you don't like what we give you we'll just pack up and go to China or Vietnam or turkey or Poland or Mexico.... It's the main reason why we've seen the huge huge massive profits from businesses in the last 40 years go to the very top 0.01% of the people, labour no longer has any leverage... The long term effects is that the purchases of products have had to take on massive debt to purchase the stuff were making because they don't earn enough of the profits.
The long term effects of that were now suffering from!
You don't need to take on any debt. Just don't buy the stuff."
.
I don't buy the stuff, but that's for different reasons!.
However what your advocating won't work regardless.
It won't work because what you'd actually do start a recession by not buying stuff and labour is always the first squeezed during a recession |
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"
You don't need to take on any debt. Just don't buy the stuff..
I don't buy the stuff, but that's for different reasons!.
However what your advocating won't work regardless.
It won't work because what you'd actually do start a recession by not buying stuff and labour is always the first squeezed during a recession"
I'm advocating not buying shit you don't need on credit. That's all.
PS this is way off thread, it was about strikes... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
You don't need to take on any debt. Just don't buy the stuff..
I don't buy the stuff, but that's for different reasons!.
However what your advocating won't work regardless.
It won't work because what you'd actually do start a recession by not buying stuff and labour is always the first squeezed during a recession
I'm advocating not buying shit you don't need on credit. That's all.
PS this is way off thread, it was about strikes..."
.
Yeah I know, I love derailing threads .
No my original post still stands, I gave my reasons why I belive strikes no longer matter and who benefits from them not mattering |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Nonone should. If you dont like your job get another one. Its like a child stamping its feet till it gets what it wants."
.
That's a very good analogy, in some ways that's exactly what happens when your raising your children.
For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction... Now imagine what would happen if you didn't.
In fact don't imagine just look around you |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"
Yeah I know, I love derailing threads .
"
"Do I know you" is "you know I do" backwards...
I orchestrated your derailment,,,,,,, mwauhaha ....mwauhaha.....mwauhaha....
Bow-down before me Doorsy-boi .....for I am the mighty fuhrer of the sausage people,, |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Yeah I know, I love derailing threads .
"Do I know you" is "you know I do" backwards...
I orchestrated your derailment,,,,,,, mwauhaha ....mwauhaha.....mwauhaha....
Bow-down before me Doorsy-boi .....for I am the mighty fuhrer of the sausage people,, "
.
I've known I've been derailed for years!.... But they always say mad people don't know there mad so I'm not sure where i fit in  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"
Yeah I know, I love derailing threads .
"Do I know you" is "you know I do" backwards...
I orchestrated your derailment,,,,,,, mwauhaha ....mwauhaha.....mwauhaha....
Bow-down before me Doorsy-boi .....for I am the mighty fuhrer of the sausage people,, .
I've known I've been derailed for years!.... But they always say mad people don't know there mad so I'm not sure where i fit in "
I do enjoy a perky thread .. |
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"Argos delivery drivers announce 72 hour strike starting 20 December....
See this kind of thing makes me think their union is advising them very poorly. Of course the point of a strike is to cause maximum disruption. But this is a scenario where people would say "well fuck that, I'll buy it somewhere else". So what will that strike achieve other than probably job losses if it hits the firms pre-Christmas sales? "
Exactly the point of the strike. To force the company to do a deal before the strike cripples the firm.
Remember that a firm needs its staff to succeed. If they are not able to convince their staff to work for them then they shall fail. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I dont agree that southern railway should strike, they have to suck it up and get on with their work they are paid to do and accept that they want to modernize the line. |
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"These strikes are just the TUC testing the water.
They have their man Corbyn at the head of the labour party, and are just ramping things up for a campaign of industrial action.
Most of the chaos has been caused by an overtime ban and work to rule, which means the company are putting the publics lives at risk for extra profit.
Everyone is quick to point the finger when there is an accident, and not bother to notice the driver has clocked up an average 60+ hours a week before falling asleep at the controls.
The strike is down to ASLEF.being unhappy at proposals to make train drivers on Southern operate the train doors.
Something that has been going on for years in other areas (Merseyrail for one).
It's a flimsy excuse at best. "
Quoth the nation's leading expert on rail safety.
How do you know the trains on Southern Rail operate in the same way as those on Merseyrail?
How do you know the platforms have the same safety equipment?
How do you know that passenger numbers and behaviour are the same? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Nonone should. If you dont like your job get another one. Its like a child stamping its feet till it gets what it wants."
you might wanna look into the history of workers.
we were all slaves before people striked, and before laws surrounding strikes if you asked for better working conditions and more food then your employers felt they had the right to kill you for that. yeah asked for more food because you didn't get paid with money, just gruel. |
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"Nonone should. If you dont like your job get another one. Its like a child stamping its feet till it gets what it wants.
you might wanna look into the history of workers.
we were all slaves before people striked, and before laws surrounding strikes if you asked for better working conditions and more food then your employers felt they had the right to kill you for that. yeah asked for more food because you didn't get paid with money, just gruel."
Selfish bastard slaves. Depriving their masters of service just because they wanted some rights.
If they didn't like their master, they should just have got a new one... Oh... Wait... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Nonone should. If you dont like your job get another one. Its like a child stamping its feet till it gets what it wants.
you might wanna look into the history of workers.
we were all slaves before people striked, and before laws surrounding strikes if you asked for better working conditions and more food then your employers felt they had the right to kill you for that. yeah asked for more food because you didn't get paid with money, just gruel.
Selfish bastard slaves. Depriving their masters of service just because they wanted some rights.
If they didn't like their master, they should just have got a new one... Oh... Wait..."
i don't even need a job as i'm doing alright doing as little as possible working for myself, but i'm looking anyway and not found anything but asda taking on. the wages are crap also. |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
A major factor is that the trains going into London on Southern Rail have far more carriages than trains operating on Merseyrail.....it's safe enough not to have guards on three or four carriage trains but a completely different story on some of the Southern Rail trains which have far greater capacity than most commuter rail trains in the U.K.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"A major factor is that the trains going into London on Southern Rail have far more carriages than trains operating on Merseyrail.....it's safe enough not to have guards on three or four carriage trains but a completely different story on some of the Southern Rail trains which have far greater capacity than most commuter rail trains in the U.K.
"
Seems to me the logical approach would be to agree to an independently monitored trial period ,,,,, |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"A major factor is that the trains going into London on Southern Rail have far more carriages than trains operating on Merseyrail.....it's safe enough not to have guards on three or four carriage trains but a completely different story on some of the Southern Rail trains which have far greater capacity than most commuter rail trains in the U.K.
Seems to me the logical approach would be to agree to an independently monitored trial period ,,,,, "
Train drivers hold very responsible positions, they have a duty of care to their passengers, if they consider it unsafe then for the sake of a few pounds per journey that should be good enough.
It's time we started to trust workers in responsible positions to keep us all safe. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A major factor is that the trains going into London on Southern Rail have far more carriages than trains operating on Merseyrail.....it's safe enough not to have guards on three or four carriage trains but a completely different story on some of the Southern Rail trains which have far greater capacity than most commuter rail trains in the U.K.
"
How does having a guard make it safer?
By the way, there will still be a "guard." The person will just not open and close the doors. |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
Quite simple actually......many of the platforms on Southern Rail are some of the longest in the country, add to this the fact that not all of the platforms in many stations are conpeletely straight and the guard has to step off of the train at times to observe passengers safely getting on and off.....the cameras fitted to the side of modern trains don't always cover all areas and blind spots are common.....it's all there in the public domain, the Train Drivers Union have made all of this common knowledge and are not playing games. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Quite simple actually......many of the platforms on Southern Rail are some of the longest in the country, add to this the fact that not all of the platforms in many stations are conpeletely straight and the guard has to step off of the train at times to observe passengers safely getting on and off.....the cameras fitted to the side of modern trains don't always cover all areas and blind spots are common.....it's all there in the public domain, the Train Drivers Union have made all of this common knowledge and are not playing games."
I am quite happy with the train driver checking the cameras. If it means I can get a fookin train.
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"Quite simple actually......many of the platforms on Southern Rail are some of the longest in the country, add to this the fact that not all of the platforms in many stations are conpeletely straight and the guard has to step off of the train at times to observe passengers safely getting on and off.....the cameras fitted to the side of modern trains don't always cover all areas and blind spots are common.....it's all there in the public domain, the Train Drivers Union have made all of this common knowledge and are not playing games.
I am quite happy with the train driver checking the cameras. If it means I can get a fookin train.
"
Fortunately you as a passenger don't get to decide what is safe and what isn't....... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Quite simple actually......many of the platforms on Southern Rail are some of the longest in the country, add to this the fact that not all of the platforms in many stations are conpeletely straight and the guard has to step off of the train at times to observe passengers safely getting on and off.....the cameras fitted to the side of modern trains don't always cover all areas and blind spots are common.....it's all there in the public domain, the Train Drivers Union have made all of this common knowledge and are not playing games.
I am quite happy with the train driver checking the cameras. If it means I can get a fookin train.
Fortunately you as a passenger don't get to decide what is safe and what isn't......."
Ah, the "unsafe" argument. Do you not think it might be more unsafe having thousands of people on a platform because there are no trains? |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"Quite simple actually......many of the platforms on Southern Rail are some of the longest in the country, add to this the fact that not all of the platforms in many stations are conpeletely straight and the guard has to step off of the train at times to observe passengers safely getting on and off.....the cameras fitted to the side of modern trains don't always cover all areas and blind spots are common.....it's all there in the public domain, the Train Drivers Union have made all of this common knowledge and are not playing games.
I am quite happy with the train driver checking the cameras. If it means I can get a fookin train.
Fortunately you as a passenger don't get to decide what is safe and what isn't.......
Ah, the "unsafe" argument. Do you not think it might be more unsafe having thousands of people on a platform because there are no trains?"
It's the legal responsibility of the driver AND the guard to ensure the safety of the passengers.....Southern want to place that whole legal responsibility in the lap of the driver, all in the name of saving what has been estimated to be less than 3p a journey per passenger.
It's already been explained that cameras work perfectly well on three or four carriage trains but commuter trains running on Southern services are far longer than this.......hence the safety issue.
But hey, take the side of the train operator, all in the name of following your own political beliefs, and bollocks to the facts rather than admit Southern are just penny pinching. |
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"Quite simple actually......many of the platforms on Southern Rail are some of the longest in the country, add to this the fact that not all of the platforms in many stations are conpeletely straight and the guard has to step off of the train at times to observe passengers safely getting on and off.....the cameras fitted to the side of modern trains don't always cover all areas and blind spots are common.....it's all there in the public domain, the Train Drivers Union have made all of this common knowledge and are not playing games.
I am quite happy with the train driver checking the cameras. If it means I can get a fookin train.
Fortunately you as a passenger don't get to decide what is safe and what isn't.......
Ah, the "unsafe" argument. Do you not think it might be more unsafe having thousands of people on a platform because there are no trains?
It's the legal responsibility of the driver AND the guard to ensure the safety of the passengers.....Southern want to place that whole legal responsibility in the lap of the driver, all in the name of saving what has been estimated to be less than 3p a journey per passenger.
It's already been explained that cameras work perfectly well on three or four carriage trains but commuter trains running on Southern services are far longer than this.......hence the safety issue.
But hey, take the side of the train operator, all in the name of following your own political beliefs, and bollocks to the facts rather than admit Southern are just penny pinching."
Well said |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"Nonone should. If you dont like your job get another one. Its like a child stamping its feet till it gets what it wants.
you might wanna look into the history of workers.
we were all slaves before people striked, and before laws surrounding strikes if you asked for better working conditions and more food then your employers felt they had the right to kill you for that. yeah asked for more food because you didn't get paid with money, just gruel.
Selfish bastard slaves. Depriving their masters of service just because they wanted some rights.
If they didn't like their master, they should just have got a new one... Oh... Wait..."
Oooo look...
Feudal slavery Vs wage slavery.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don't like strikes but , question ?
Would you board a plane or a ship with just a driver on it and no one else ? Even a bus or coach should have two people ! |
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"Quite simple actually......many of the platforms on Southern Rail are some of the longest in the country, add to this the fact that not all of the platforms in many stations are conpeletely straight and the guard has to step off of the train at times to observe passengers safely getting on and off.....the cameras fitted to the side of modern trains don't always cover all areas and blind spots are common.....it's all there in the public domain, the Train Drivers Union have made all of this common knowledge and are not playing games.
I am quite happy with the train driver checking the cameras. If it means I can get a fookin train.
Fortunately you as a passenger don't get to decide what is safe and what isn't.......
Ah, the "unsafe" argument. Do you not think it might be more unsafe having thousands of people on a platform because there are no trains?
It's the legal responsibility of the driver AND the guard to ensure the safety of the passengers.....Southern want to place that whole legal responsibility in the lap of the driver, all in the name of saving what has been estimated to be less than 3p a journey per passenger.
It's already been explained that cameras work perfectly well on three or four carriage trains but commuter trains running on Southern services are far longer than this.......hence the safety issue.
But hey, take the side of the train operator, all in the name of following your own political beliefs, and bollocks to the facts rather than admit Southern are just penny pinching."
this..
have attended incidents where the driver was incapacitated, the guard was invaluable in liaising with us and the other emergency services and that assisted in getting help to those passengers who needed medical help..
safety is not just about ensuring the train can leave the station..
|
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Not going to comment too much, because this is politics and politics threads get nasty, but what about the 'rights' of the people to get to work next week?
The rights of the children to have a lovely Christmas with their cards and presents turning up?
Where do rights begin and end? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Quite simple actually......many of the platforms on Southern Rail are some of the longest in the country, add to this the fact that not all of the platforms in many stations are conpeletely straight and the guard has to step off of the train at times to observe passengers safely getting on and off.....the cameras fitted to the side of modern trains don't always cover all areas and blind spots are common.....it's all there in the public domain, the Train Drivers Union have made all of this common knowledge and are not playing games.
I am quite happy with the train driver checking the cameras. If it means I can get a fookin train.
Fortunately you as a passenger don't get to decide what is safe and what isn't.......
Ah, the "unsafe" argument. Do you not think it might be more unsafe having thousands of people on a platform because there are no trains?
It's the legal responsibility of the driver AND the guard to ensure the safety of the passengers.....Southern want to place that whole legal responsibility in the lap of the driver, all in the name of saving what has been estimated to be less than 3p a journey per passenger.
It's already been explained that cameras work perfectly well on three or four carriage trains but commuter trains running on Southern services are far longer than this.......hence the safety issue.
But hey, take the side of the train operator, all in the name of following your own political beliefs, and bollocks to the facts rather than admit Southern are just penny pinching.
this..
have attended incidents where the driver was incapacitated, the guard was invaluable in liaising with us and the other emergency services and that assisted in getting help to those passengers who needed medical help..
safety is not just about ensuring the train can leave the station..
"
I am sure that the guard can do that, whether or not he or she watches the doors. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"These strikes are just the TUC testing the water.
They have their man Corbyn at the head of the labour party, and are just ramping things up for a campaign of industrial action.
Most of the chaos has been caused by an overtime ban and work to rule, which means the company are putting the publics lives at risk for extra profit.
Everyone is quick to point the finger when there is an accident, and not bother to notice the driver has clocked up an average 60+ hours a week before falling asleep at the controls.
The strike is down to ASLEF.being unhappy at proposals to make train drivers on Southern operate the train doors.
Something that has been going on for years in other areas (Merseyrail for one).
It's a flimsy excuse at best.
Quoth the nation's leading expert on rail safety.
How do you know the trains on Southern Rail operate in the same way as those on Merseyrail?
How do you know the platforms have the same safety equipment?
How do you know that passenger numbers and behaviour are the same?"
Merseyrail was only an example. Thameslink also operate Driver Only Operation, including over Southern tracks to Brighton.
Driver Only Operation has been passed as a safe working practice by HM Railway Inspectorate.
The fact that ASLEF are now using it as a safety concern, when they have clearly endorsed it for years, is the point that is being made here.
I have also been.on a train service where there is no driver and no guard, and it also runs well and safely |
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By *anes HubbyCouple
over a year ago
Babbacombe Torquay |
"Quite simple actually......many of the platforms on Southern Rail are some of the longest in the country, add to this the fact that not all of the platforms in many stations are conpeletely straight and the guard has to step off of the train at times to observe passengers safely getting on and off.....the cameras fitted to the side of modern trains don't always cover all areas and blind spots are common.....it's all there in the public domain, the Train Drivers Union have made all of this common knowledge and are not playing games.
I am quite happy with the train driver checking the cameras. If it means I can get a fookin train.
Fortunately you as a passenger don't get to decide what is safe and what isn't.......
Ah, the "unsafe" argument. Do you not think it might be more unsafe having thousands of people on a platform because there are no trains?
It's the legal responsibility of the driver AND the guard to ensure the safety of the passengers.....Southern want to place that whole legal responsibility in the lap of the driver, all in the name of saving what has been estimated to be less than 3p a journey per passenger.
It's already been explained that cameras work perfectly well on three or four carriage trains but commuter trains running on Southern services are far longer than this.......hence the safety issue.
But hey, take the side of the train operator, all in the name of following your own political beliefs, and bollocks to the facts rather than admit Southern are just penny pinching.
this..
have attended incidents where the driver was incapacitated, the guard was invaluable in liaising with us and the other emergency services and that assisted in getting help to those passengers who needed medical help..
safety is not just about ensuring the train can leave the station..
"
Absolutely......it's all down to the 3p per passenger journey saved, no more no less. |
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"Not going to comment too much, because this is politics and politics threads get nasty, but what about the 'rights' of the people to get to work next week?
The rights of the children to have a lovely Christmas with their cards and presents turning up?
Where do rights begin and end?"
Eh?
People can get to work. They just need an alternative travel method. To say you have a right to get on a train is the sort of claptrap gap yah types come out with when someone withdraws their trustfund. Self entitled perspective free nonsense,
Get on a bus, drive, share lifts. Many many ways to get to work. Just because the most convenient has been taken away from you does not mean your rights are being taken away. |
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"These strikes are just the TUC testing the water.
They have their man Corbyn at the head of the labour party, and are just ramping things up for a campaign of industrial action.
Most of the chaos has been caused by an overtime ban and work to rule, which means the company are putting the publics lives at risk for extra profit.
Everyone is quick to point the finger when there is an accident, and not bother to notice the driver has clocked up an average 60+ hours a week before falling asleep at the controls.
The strike is down to ASLEF.being unhappy at proposals to make train drivers on Southern operate the train doors.
Something that has been going on for years in other areas (Merseyrail for one).
It's a flimsy excuse at best.
Quoth the nation's leading expert on rail safety.
How do you know the trains on Southern Rail operate in the same way as those on Merseyrail?
How do you know the platforms have the same safety equipment?
How do you know that passenger numbers and behaviour are the same?
Merseyrail was only an example. Thameslink also operate Driver Only Operation, including over Southern tracks to Brighton.
Driver Only Operation has been passed as a safe working practice by HM Railway Inspectorate.
The fact that ASLEF are now using it as a safety concern, when they have clearly endorsed it for years, is the point that is being made here.
I have also been.on a train service where there is no driver and no guard, and it also runs well and safely"
Plenty has been said before and after your post which shows what you are saying is not relevant to the argument of why this is a bad idea. There is no point e repeating it as you either ignored it or didn't bother to read it the first time. |
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"Not going to comment too much, because this is politics and politics threads get nasty, but what about the 'rights' of the people to get to work next week?
The rights of the children to have a lovely Christmas with their cards and presents turning up?
Where do rights begin and end?
Eh?
People can get to work. They just need an alternative travel method. To say you have a right to get on a train is the sort of claptrap gap yah types come out with when someone withdraws their trustfund. Self entitled perspective free nonsense,
Get on a bus, drive, share lifts. Many many ways to get to work. Just because the most convenient has been taken away from you does not mean your rights are being taken away. "
It was a hypothetical question about what are 'rights' when it boils down to it, nothing to do with anyone actually travelling 
*Another note to self to stay away from politics threads because a lot of people on them are quick to make snap judgements and then have a go because they've not read a post properly, or aren't up to understanding it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Over here , some states are "right to work states" ( no unions) if you go on strike your out of a job "
Strange thing is the other countries that operate on companies having all the rights, e.g. Russia, China, many third world countries etc. are not a model the USA would normally support.
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"These strikes are just the TUC testing the water.
They have their man Corbyn at the head of the labour party, and are just ramping things up for a campaign of industrial action.
Most of the chaos has been caused by an overtime ban and work to rule, which means the company are putting the publics lives at risk for extra profit.
Everyone is quick to point the finger when there is an accident, and not bother to notice the driver has clocked up an average 60+ hours a week before falling asleep at the controls.
The strike is down to ASLEF.being unhappy at proposals to make train drivers on Southern operate the train doors.
Something that has been going on for years in other areas (Merseyrail for one).
It's a flimsy excuse at best.
Quoth the nation's leading expert on rail safety.
How do you know the trains on Southern Rail operate in the same way as those on Merseyrail?
How do you know the platforms have the same safety equipment?
How do you know that passenger numbers and behaviour are the same?
Merseyrail was only an example. Thameslink also operate Driver Only Operation, including over Southern tracks to Brighton.
Driver Only Operation has been passed as a safe working practice by HM Railway Inspectorate.
The fact that ASLEF are now using it as a safety concern, when they have clearly endorsed it for years, is the point that is being made here.
I have also been.on a train service where there is no driver and no guard, and it also runs well and safely
Plenty has been said before and after your post which shows what you are saying is not relevant to the argument of why this is a bad idea. There is no point e repeating it as you either ignored it or didn't bother to read it the first time."
For your information I don't agree with the second member of staff being removed from some services.
But then, I deal in facts and not opinions. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's high time folk that strike because their final salary pension has been taken away are sacked straight away. The country is trillions in debt with huge pension black holes in all sectors. Simply unaffordable . People on strike have zero respect from me a hard working SELF employed person with no such company gilt-edged pension. Train drivers on strike?! Sack them.. get paid a bomb for the easiest job in the world. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We moan like hell about people striking n ye some times the unions do go a bit Ott .but hell if people didn't big business would have the average jo living on Brea and water n sleeping in a work house again while they lived it up ...remember it wasn't really that long ago ....French as a whole annoy me met some good ones but most are pretty rude n arrogant n dnt like the British except or currency lol but hat off to them they are crap when it comes to fighting a WA but striking n rioting they at world class if not leaders they take no shit of government n big business we could learn a thing about sticking up for our rights from them |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The last 40 years have seen the creditor class avoid the push by labour for a bigger share in the profits, that was the whole point of the freeing up of international credit control and business... It gave them the ability to say... Fuck you, if you don't like what we give you we'll just pack up and go to China or Vietnam or turkey or Poland or Mexico.... It's the main reason why we've seen the huge huge massive profits from businesses in the last 40 years go to the very top 0.01% of the people, labour no longer has any leverage... The long term effects is that the purchases of products have had to take on massive debt to purchase the stuff were making because they don't earn enough of the profits.
The long term effects of that were now suffering from!"
.
With out getting personal about the rights and wrongs of it. I looked up a few more facts.
The 70s saw the highest percentage of nett profits going to labour!!... So now you know why gross profit were low?.
.
Now since the 70s we've seen gross profits explode and labour share decrease massively.
.
We've seen negligible wage increases for forty years, the bottom 60% of wage earners have actually seen a real term loss in wage after inflation.
.
Debt has also exploded.
.
Now whether you think strikes are good or bad what the evidence shows is it had a balancing effect.
Without it the other side has gone nuts.... So the question is if you don't want to return to labour leverage what do you do to redress the necessary balance? |
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By *ikeC81Man
over a year ago
harrow |
Southern are lazy fucks - get back to fucking work
I work for an employer that doesn't recognise unions
I belong to a union and have used them time to time on employment issues but it was an issue I needed advice on
To be continualous on strike since April is taking the piss.
They are holding the south and London to ransom. I must also add that the government should have stepped in along with management to resolve this issue a long time ago
I have to try and get from harrow to Crystal Palace and back this evening. I will do it if it is the last thing I do
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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago
Wakefield |
"Who should have it, and who shouldn't ? "
Everyone should have the right to strike.
But if the strike is union backed the union should pay compensation to all those affected by the strike other than the employers of the strikers
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"simple....if u don't like your terms/conditions at work....show some balls and leave ....get some big boy pants....rather than run like a kid to the teacher....all wankers..."
Yes it's pathetic attitudes like that that would have us all still being serfs, morons. |
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"These strikes are just the TUC testing the water.
They have their man Corbyn at the head of the labour party, and are just ramping things up for a campaign of industrial action.
Most of the chaos has been caused by an overtime ban and work to rule, which means the company are putting the publics lives at risk for extra profit.
Everyone is quick to point the finger when there is an accident, and not bother to notice the driver has clocked up an average 60+ hours a week before falling asleep at the controls.
The strike is down to ASLEF.being unhappy at proposals to make train drivers on Southern operate the train doors.
Something that has been going on for years in other areas (Merseyrail for one).
It's a flimsy excuse at best.
Quoth the nation's leading expert on rail safety.
How do you know the trains on Southern Rail operate in the same way as those on Merseyrail?
How do you know the platforms have the same safety equipment?
How do you know that passenger numbers and behaviour are the same?
Merseyrail was only an example. Thameslink also operate Driver Only Operation, including over Southern tracks to Brighton.
Driver Only Operation has been passed as a safe working practice by HM Railway Inspectorate.
The fact that ASLEF are now using it as a safety concern, when they have clearly endorsed it for years, is the point that is being made here.
I have also been.on a train service where there is no driver and no guard, and it also runs well and safely
Plenty has been said before and after your post which shows what you are saying is not relevant to the argument of why this is a bad idea. There is no point e repeating it as you either ignored it or didn't bother to read it the first time.
For your information I don't agree with the second member of staff being removed from some services.
But then, I deal in facts and not opinions."
So you agree with me but still end your post with a snide comment. Fair enough.
Also Southern Rail are not proposing to do away with the guard, just give custody of the door control to the driver. But then what do I know, only opinions. |
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"
.
We've seen negligible wage increases for forty years, the bottom 60% of wage earners have actually seen a real term loss in wage after inflation.
."
Twaddle. Go and live in the 70s. Couldnt afford a car, house with central heating , TVs, playstations, meals out, foreign holidays etc etc. Standard of living is higher now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
First they came for the postal workers, but i wasn't a postal worker and just wanted my post....
Then they came for the argos staff.... but i wasn't an argos employee so didn't give a fuck....
Then they came for the rail staff, that made my life difficult so i said, "fuckem"
Now they've come for me.... who will stand with me?
(M) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"First they came for the postal workers, but i wasn't a postal worker and just wanted my post....
Then they came for the argos staff.... but i wasn't an argos employee so didn't give a fuck....
Then they came for the rail staff, that made my life difficult so i said, "fuckem"
Now they've come for me.... who will stand with me?
(M)"
Exactly right. |
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"Striking should be banned when it affects the general public and stops them going about their normal life. For all other situations then fill your boots. "
But then there would be no leverage would there? The more disruption it causes the higher up they start to listen. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
.
We've seen negligible wage increases for forty years, the bottom 60% of wage earners have actually seen a real term loss in wage after inflation.
.
Twaddle. Go and live in the 70s. Couldnt afford a car, house with central heating , TVs, playstations, meals out, foreign holidays etc etc. Standard of living is higher now."
Mainly because of credit and in work benefits. A lot of people can't afford all of those things. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not sure who can't strike - Police and Military? Who else?
Nurses cannot strike"
Nurses can strike, there is no legal restriction on them for undertaking strike/industrial action. They have in the past. I'm 2014, midwives, who are on the same register as nurses, the NMC, undertook strike action for the first time in their history. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"These strikes are just the TUC testing the water.
They have their man Corbyn at the head of the labour party, and are just ramping things up for a campaign of industrial action.
Most of the chaos has been caused by an overtime ban and work to rule, which means the company are putting the publics lives at risk for extra profit.
Everyone is quick to point the finger when there is an accident, and not bother to notice the driver has clocked up an average 60+ hours a week before falling asleep at the controls.
The strike is down to ASLEF.being unhappy at proposals to make train drivers on Southern operate the train doors.
Something that has been going on for years in other areas (Merseyrail for one).
It's a flimsy excuse at best.
Quoth the nation's leading expert on rail safety.
How do you know the trains on Southern Rail operate in the same way as those on Merseyrail?
How do you know the platforms have the same safety equipment?
How do you know that passenger numbers and behaviour are the same?
Merseyrail was only an example. Thameslink also operate Driver Only Operation, including over Southern tracks to Brighton.
Driver Only Operation has been passed as a safe working practice by HM Railway Inspectorate.
The fact that ASLEF are now using it as a safety concern, when they have clearly endorsed it for years, is the point that is being made here.
I have also been.on a train service where there is no driver and no guard, and it also runs well and safely
Plenty has been said before and after your post which shows what you are saying is not relevant to the argument of why this is a bad idea. There is no point e repeating it as you either ignored it or didn't bother to read it the first time.
For your information I don't agree with the second member of staff being removed from some services.
But then, I deal in facts and not opinions.
So you agree with me but still end your post with a snide comment. Fair enough.
Also Southern Rail are not proposing to do away with the guard, just give custody of the door control to the driver. But then what do I know, only opinions."
2 things of note here.....
1) aslef and Scotrail had exactly the same issue.... Aslef and scotrail came up with a mutally agreed solution....
aslef proposed to southern... we would agree to the same solution we came up with with scotrail...
southern said... nah..... because
2) Southerns franchise is different to all the others....
where the other franchises pay the government the right to run the services... Southern's is the other way round..
Southern's franchise is actually governement held, where they pay the operator a flat fee to run the services in a business manner.....
so at the end of the day this is a arguement between union and government and government flexing muscles to try and crush union.....
its also the reason why now tory transport minister won't give the inner london services to TFL to run, because it would be them to a now labour london mayor.....
grayling is a idiot!!!! and there are a fair few tory mp's who dispise him... |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"These strikes are just the TUC testing the water.
They have their man Corbyn at the head of the labour party, and are just ramping things up for a campaign of industrial action.
Most of the chaos has been caused by an overtime ban and work to rule, which means the company are putting the publics lives at risk for extra profit.
Everyone is quick to point the finger when there is an accident, and not bother to notice the driver has clocked up an average 60+ hours a week before falling asleep at the controls.
The strike is down to ASLEF.being unhappy at proposals to make train drivers on Southern operate the train doors.
Something that has been going on for years in other areas (Merseyrail for one).
It's a flimsy excuse at best.
Quoth the nation's leading expert on rail safety.
How do you know the trains on Southern Rail operate in the same way as those on Merseyrail?
How do you know the platforms have the same safety equipment?
How do you know that passenger numbers and behaviour are the same?
Merseyrail was only an example. Thameslink also operate Driver Only Operation, including over Southern tracks to Brighton.
Driver Only Operation has been passed as a safe working practice by HM Railway Inspectorate.
The fact that ASLEF are now using it as a safety concern, when they have clearly endorsed it for years, is the point that is being made here.
I have also been.on a train service where there is no driver and no guard, and it also runs well and safely
Plenty has been said before and after your post which shows what you are saying is not relevant to the argument of why this is a bad idea. There is no point e repeating it as you either ignored it or didn't bother to read it the first time.
For your information I don't agree with the second member of staff being removed from some services.
But then, I deal in facts and not opinions.
So you agree with me but still end your post with a snide comment. Fair enough.
Also Southern Rail are not proposing to do away with the guard, just give custody of the door control to the driver. But then what do I know, only opinions.
2 things of note here.....
1) aslef and Scotrail had exactly the same issue.... Aslef and scotrail came up with a mutally agreed solution....
aslef proposed to southern... we would agree to the same solution we came up with with scotrail...
southern said... nah..... because
2) Southerns franchise is different to all the others....
where the other franchises pay the government the right to run the services... Southern's is the other way round..
Southern's franchise is actually governement held, where they pay the operator a flat fee to run the services in a business manner.....
so at the end of the day this is a arguement between union and government and government flexing muscles to try and crush union.....
its also the reason why now tory transport minister won't give the inner london services to TFL to run, because it would be them to a now labour london mayor.....
grayling is a idiot!!!! and there are a fair few tory mp's who dispise him..."
this Govia Southern has been set up by the DFT to get this through at all costs so that it can be run out across the country why do you think the govt & ministers are staying out of this one as much as possible ? Any other franchise would of been shut down and taken over by now if they performed half as badly as southern but they haven't because they cannot be allowed to fail . |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
.
We've seen negligible wage increases for forty years, the bottom 60% of wage earners have actually seen a real term loss in wage after inflation.
.
Twaddle. Go and live in the 70s. Couldnt afford a car, house with central heating , TVs, playstations, meals out, foreign holidays etc etc. Standard of living is higher now."
.
No it's statistically correct I'm afraid, you can go and look it up yourself if you want to?.
The average house price was only twice average yearly wage,a television would have been more expensive then because they weren't mass market produced, foreign holidays again is a misnomer, it's got more to do with technological breakthroughs than wages.
The fact is if you take the average wage from 1977 and deduct inflation there's been no increase while profits and productivity has soared |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
.
We've seen negligible wage increases for forty years, the bottom 60% of wage earners have actually seen a real term loss in wage after inflation.
.
Twaddle. Go and live in the 70s. Couldnt afford a car, house with central heating , TVs, playstations, meals out, foreign holidays etc etc. Standard of living is higher now..
No it's statistically correct I'm afraid, you can go and look it up yourself if you want to?.
The average house price was only twice average yearly wage,a television would have been more expensive then because they weren't mass market produced, foreign holidays again is a misnomer, it's got more to do with technological breakthroughs than wages.
The fact is if you take the average wage from 1977 and deduct inflation there's been no increase while profits and productivity has soared"
I think it is annecdotally true as well, I remember in the late 70's buying a pioneer system with mission speakers for 1 weeks salary, and my first house which was incomplete i.e, 3 walls and half a roof cost just under £10,000 so I believe my available spending money was relitivly higher than it has been ever since. |
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By *ildt123Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield |
"Not sure who can't strike - Police and Military? Who else?
Nurses cannot strike"
Nurses most definitely can strike, they generally choose not to, one of the major unions RCN doesn't believe in strike action but the other nursing unions have and do strike from time to time. They always leave emergency cover. Trouble is theses days the agreed emergency cover staffing requirements can be more than are rostered to work!!!
I have been in strike twice and been called to work to cover both times |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
.
We've seen negligible wage increases for forty years, the bottom 60% of wage earners have actually seen a real term loss in wage after inflation.
.
Twaddle. Go and live in the 70s. Couldnt afford a car, house with central heating , TVs, playstations, meals out, foreign holidays etc etc. Standard of living is higher now..
No it's statistically correct I'm afraid, you can go and look it up yourself if you want to?.
The average house price was only twice average yearly wage,a television would have been more expensive then because they weren't mass market produced, foreign holidays again is a misnomer, it's got more to do with technological breakthroughs than wages.
The fact is if you take the average wage from 1977 and deduct inflation there's been no increase while profits and productivity has soared
I think it is annecdotally true as well, I remember in the late 70's buying a pioneer system with mission speakers for 1 weeks salary, and my first house which was incomplete i.e, 3 walls and half a roof cost just under £10,000 so I believe my available spending money was relitivly higher than it has been ever since."
.
That's correct labour share of profits had never been higher than in the 70s it's also why it was the decade of the lowest debt, you didn't need as much because your wages went further |
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"
That's correct labour share of profits had never been higher than in the 70s it's also why it was the decade of the lowest debt, you didn't need as much because your wages went further"
I agree that housing has been the killer, in that it eradicates so many peoples disposable income. |
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It is a fundamental right that people have the ability to strike.
However it is also an obligation that the right is not abused.
I can guarantee that if another group other than railworkers decide to strike....let's day as an example, flight traffic controllers, then this Government would question whether they should retain this right, the Unions would say it is not political and the Daily Fail would spout some other rubbish condemning strikers to a fiery afterlife.
What is significant with the current dispute is that as soon as we have a day of grace from political and posturing rhetoric from both sides, they sit down and chat. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
That's correct labour share of profits had never been higher than in the 70s it's also why it was the decade of the lowest debt, you didn't need as much because your wages went further
I agree that housing has been the killer, in that it eradicates so many peoples disposable income."
.
That's the boom of cheap debt, made possible by the creditor class and the deregulation of international finance..... You can actually track it back to the policy of full employment after ww2, labour gained that and made 3 decades of huge advantage.
The creditors went happy and set about on globalisation... Which fucked labour and strikes right up the ass.... Add on 40 years we are where we are |
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Aside from the strike issue, The 'big companies' that so many love to hate, were once little businesses that did really well and took on more and more people.
Gave these people work and an income. They also made profits, lots of which get ploughed back in to the business.
But now they are 'evil' because they are so successful. This country bashes success way too much. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Aside from the strike issue, The 'big companies' that so many love to hate, were once little businesses that did really well and took on more and more people.
Gave these people work and an income. They also made profits, lots of which get ploughed back in to the business.
But now they are 'evil' because they are so successful. This country bashes success way too much."
.
The main problem is we this notion that something is bad or good.
If we forget all that and look at the data on what's occurred we see clearly where the problem is... Not enough share of the profits going to labour and way too much debt.... It's very clear.
Now how you solve the problem is a different question |
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By *acLe0dMan
over a year ago
Preston |
The question is peoples belief in the right to strike directly proportional to how it affects you. It has little to no impact on you do you support it more than if it has a direct impact on you.
|
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"
If we forget all that and look at the data on what's occurred we see clearly where the problem is... Not enough share of the profits going to labour and way too much debt.... It's very clear.
Now how you solve the problem is a different question"
The labour content of products has fallen partly because of automation. That's one of the ways (as well as cheap imports) that you get goods so cheaply.
If the UK is to compete as a manufacturing base, our 'expensive' labour (compared to the far east) needs to be a small proportion of the manufactured item. That way we can employ well paid manufacturing staff without it crippling the cost of the product. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"simple....if u don't like your terms/conditions at work....show some balls and leave ....get some big boy pants....rather than run like a kid to the teacher....all wankers..."
Ok let look at this one.
Holiday entitlement.
Holiday pay.
Bank holidays.
Maternity leave.
Sick pay.
Job security,
Equal pay.
Equal opportunities.
Women's rights.
Meal breaks.
Health and safety.
Just a few of the things brought to you by unions and their members that strike. So weather you agree with striking or not take the time to think that without unions you would probably be working in sweat shop somewhere. |
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"Not sure who can't strike - Police and Military? Who else?
Nurses cannot strike
Yes they can"
Everyone has a right to withdraw their labour; it's all a matter of what the consequences would be.
RCN nurses, and that's the majority of them, have never gone on strike in over 100 years. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"simple....if u don't like your terms/conditions at work....show some balls and leave ....get some big boy pants....rather than run like a kid to the teacher....all wankers...
Ok let look at this one.
Holiday entitlement.
Holiday pay.
Bank holidays.
Maternity leave.
Sick pay.
Job security,
Equal pay.
Equal opportunities.
Women's rights.
Meal breaks.
Health and safety.
Just a few of the things brought to you by unions and their members that strike. So weather you agree with striking or not take the time to think that without unions you would probably be working in sweat shop somewhere."
|
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By *ercuryMan
over a year ago
Grantham |
"simple....if u don't like your terms/conditions at work....show some balls and leave ....get some big boy pants....rather than run like a kid to the teacher....all wankers...
Ok let look at this one.
Holiday entitlement.
Holiday pay.
Bank holidays.
Maternity leave.
Sick pay.
Job security,
Equal pay.
Equal opportunities.
Women's rights.
Meal breaks.
Health and safety.
Just a few of the things brought to you by unions and their members that strike. So weather you agree with striking or not take the time to think that without unions you would probably be working in sweat shop somewhere."
Where do the Self Employed sign up for that lot? |
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"Not sure who can't strike - Police and Military? Who else?
Nurses cannot strike
Yes they can
Everyone has a right to withdraw their labour; it's all a matter of what the consequences would be.
RCN nurses, and that's the majority of them, have never gone on strike in over 100 years. "
Nurses and doctors rarely go on strike for obvious reasons - the doctors strike this summer was the first under a conservative government in history for example
Unfortunately the government have used that to cut their pay knowing they'll likely get away with it - I'd support an independent binding pay setting body outside of government in return for a no strike rule - the government won't agree to that though sadly |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"simple....if u don't like your terms/conditions at work....show some balls and leave ....get some big boy pants....rather than run like a kid to the teacher....all wankers...
Ok let look at this one.
Holiday entitlement.
Holiday pay.
Bank holidays.
Maternity leave.
Sick pay.
Job security,
Equal pay.
Equal opportunities.
Women's rights.
Meal breaks.
Health and safety.
Just a few of the things brought to you by unions and their members that strike. So weather you agree with striking or not take the time to think that without unions you would probably be working in sweat shop somewhere.
Where do the Self Employed sign up for that lot?"
.
The self employed do get advantageous tax arrangements though! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"simple....if u don't like your terms/conditions at work....show some balls and leave ....get some big boy pants....rather than run like a kid to the teacher....all wankers...
Ok let look at this one.
Holiday entitlement.
Holiday pay.
Bank holidays.
Maternity leave.
Sick pay.
Job security,
Equal pay.
Equal opportunities.
Women's rights.
Meal breaks.
Health and safety.
Just a few of the things brought to you by unions and their members that strike. So weather you agree with striking or not take the time to think that without unions you would probably be working in sweat shop somewhere.
Where do the Self Employed sign up for that lot?"
It's their choice to be self employed just as its my choice to be a member of a union.
The things I have mentioned are a few of the benefits the list is pretty much endless.
Every the self employed have the right to join a union. |
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"
It's their choice to be self employed just as its my choice to be a member of a union.
The things I have mentioned are a few of the benefits the list is pretty much endless.
Every the self employed have the right to join a union."
True, but the 'it's their choice' is akin to someone saying to an employed person who isn't happy 'go and get another job'.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
In reality the only people left striking over the last 20 years have been the ones who's jobs couldn't be exported like rail, fire, hospital, schools etc etc.
Globalisation fucked the rest as they just took the "factory" abroad.... Even immigration has been "schooled" by the creditors, it's just another tool to drive down wages while increasing profits.
If you read Thomas pikettys book capital in the 21st century(it's incredibly boring) what he does very well is collect the data on where the money has gone , the famed 0.01%!.
The class of people that have been screwed over the most are the hand to mouth, they get paid and it all goes on "living" , this class by definition have been in recession for 40 years.
Whatever your feelings about labour strikes, the fact remains that they were the main tool used for labour % gain, when it went so did labours bargaining.... The problem is you can't roll back trade agreements and globalisation so it falls on government to regulate and push for the redress... Good luck with that one |
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"
Where do the Self Employed sign up for that lot?.
The self employed do get advantageous tax arrangements though!"
Marginally better tax, but no sick pay, no holiday pay, no break entitlement, no bank holiday pay, no working hours limit. Plus the complete finacial risk of everything in the business.
50% of the workforce is employed in small businesses where these rights are maintained but are extremely difficult to finance. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
It's their choice to be self employed just as its my choice to be a member of a union.
The things I have mentioned are a few of the benefits the list is pretty much endless.
Every the self employed have the right to join a union.
True, but the 'it's their choice' is akin to someone saying to an employed person who isn't happy 'go and get another job'.
"
But we are not talking about an individual that has no voice in the society we live in (unfortunately) but about thousands of people.
At the end of the day it's about life choices.
If people don't stand up for their rights we will all quickly return to the days of the Victorians where the working classes were expendable. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Where do the Self Employed sign up for that lot?.
The self employed do get advantageous tax arrangements though!
Marginally better tax, but no sick pay, no holiday pay, no break entitlement, no bank holiday pay, no working hours limit. Plus the complete finacial risk of everything in the business.
50% of the workforce is employed in small businesses where these rights are maintained but are extremely difficult to finance."
.
I'm self employed, yes what you say is very true, it's harder work than most imagine because when we go home you don't finish work, you just carry on with hours of paperwork.
Marginally better isn't how i pay tax, I pay a lot lot less than I would being employed,i also get to buy stuff that lets say I can offset as self employed that I couldn't as employed!.
There's pro's and con's in both systems, self employment just suits me better personally |
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"
It's their choice to be self employed just as its my choice to be a member of a union.
The things I have mentioned are a few of the benefits the list is pretty much endless.
Every the self employed have the right to join a union.
True, but the 'it's their choice' is akin to someone saying to an employed person who isn't happy 'go and get another job'.
But we are not talking about an individual that has no voice in the society we live in (unfortunately) but about thousands of people.
At the end of the day it's about life choices.
If people don't stand up for their rights we will all quickly return to the days of the Victorians where the working classes were expendable."
Yes, but I'm not saying 'tough shit' to people who want to be in a Union and stand up for what they want. I just don't like the 'you decided to be self employed'
50% of the country is employed by small business, so it isn't just an individual. Big corporations and small businesses are very different beasts with very different problems. At the moment a small business has to comply with everything in exactly the same way as a PLC. That is very difficult and can close down a good small business. |
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"
I'm self employed, yes what you say is very true, it's harder work than most imagine because when we go home you don't finish work, you just carry on with hours of paperwork.
Marginally better isn't how i pay tax, I pay a lot lot less than I would being employed,i also get to buy stuff that lets say I can offset as self employed that I couldn't as employed!.
There's pro's and con's in both systems, self employment just suits me better personally"
Depends what the 'stuff' is and if you get caught.
It suits me too. But If someone goes off on long term sick I would be screwed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
It's their choice to be self employed just as its my choice to be a member of a union.
The things I have mentioned are a few of the benefits the list is pretty much endless.
Every the self employed have the right to join a union.
True, but the 'it's their choice' is akin to someone saying to an employed person who isn't happy 'go and get another job'.
But we are not talking about an individual that has no voice in the society we live in (unfortunately) but about thousands of people.
At the end of the day it's about life choices.
If people don't stand up for their rights we will all quickly return to the days of the Victorians where the working classes were expendable.
Yes, but I'm not saying 'tough shit' to people who want to be in a Union and stand up for what they want. I just don't like the 'you decided to be self employed'
50% of the country is employed by small business, so it isn't just an individual. Big corporations and small businesses are very different beasts with very different problems. At the moment a small business has to comply with everything in exactly the same way as a PLC. That is very difficult and can close down a good small business."
I fully understand that and maybe my use of "choice" was not the best, but back to my original point. I don't think there is a single person in the UK that hasn't benefited from the work trade unions do.
Not just us but our parents, our children, our country. |
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ask the miners what strikes achieved ...fuck all that's what....sack the barstards and get people who choose to work ....unions are for themselves ..where are the union leaders ..collecting there xmas bonus no doubt....james blunts the lot of them |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
I'm self employed, yes what you say is very true, it's harder work than most imagine because when we go home you don't finish work, you just carry on with hours of paperwork.
Marginally better isn't how i pay tax, I pay a lot lot less than I would being employed,i also get to buy stuff that lets say I can offset as self employed that I couldn't as employed!.
There's pro's and con's in both systems, self employment just suits me better personally
Depends what the 'stuff' is and if you get caught.
It suits me too. But If someone goes off on long term sick I would be screwed."
.
I know where your coming from and it's why I've only ever employed one person in nearly 30 years of trading and they were family...
.
.
Stuff, is stuff I would have bought anyway but as somebody self employed i get tax breaks on.
For instance yesterday I was wandering around the vw van centre, they have a very nice t6 2x2 highline in, 44,000 pounds.
I can claim the vat back as it's "classed" as a commercial vehicle,i can go on a scheme where my firm "technically" hires it for three years which means all my monthly payments are tax deductible and then after 3 years I can personally buy the vehicle for a fixed amount, it should be worth more than I personally pay for it at that point, so I could just sell it straight on at personal profit and start again on another scheme.
|
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"
I fully understand that and maybe my use of "choice" was not the best, but back to my original point. I don't think there is a single person in the UK that hasn't benefited from the work trade unions do.
Not just us but our parents, our children, our country. "
OK. I agree these rights are critical and hard won.
I'm just throwing in the mix the effect on small business.
i.e Genuine sick for an employee in a large company can more easily be absorbed as it is a small proportion of overall costs.
If you were a mechanic, doing OK, and needed a junior to help you, so employed one, all legally, above board 35 hrs/wk contract. If he goes off sick, you will be paying £88 per week sick pay for up to six months. So, you would be down £88, a man down, so less business coming in. That is a major problem.
So, lets maintain these important rights, but it also needs some practical compromise too. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
I'm self employed, yes what you say is very true, it's harder work than most imagine because when we go home you don't finish work, you just carry on with hours of paperwork.
Marginally better isn't how i pay tax, I pay a lot lot less than I would being employed,i also get to buy stuff that lets say I can offset as self employed that I couldn't as employed!.
There's pro's and con's in both systems, self employment just suits me better personally
Depends what the 'stuff' is and if you get caught.
It suits me too. But If someone goes off on long term sick I would be screwed..
I know where your coming from and it's why I've only ever employed one person in nearly 30 years of trading and they were family...
.
.
Stuff, is stuff I would have bought anyway but as somebody self employed i get tax breaks on.
For instance yesterday I was wandering around the vw van centre, they have a very nice t6 2x2 highline in, 44,000 pounds.
I can claim the vat back as it's "classed" as a commercial vehicle,i can go on a scheme where my firm "technically" hires it for three years which means all my monthly payments are tax deductible and then after 3 years I can personally buy the vehicle for a fixed amount, it should be worth more than I personally pay for it at that point, so I could just sell it straight on at personal profit and start again on another scheme.
"
I get a free bus pass from my employer |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
I fully understand that and maybe my use of "choice" was not the best, but back to my original point. I don't think there is a single person in the UK that hasn't benefited from the work trade unions do.
Not just us but our parents, our children, our country.
OK. I agree these rights are critical and hard won.
I'm just throwing in the mix the effect on small business.
i.e Genuine sick for an employee in a large company can more easily be absorbed as it is a small proportion of overall costs.
If you were a mechanic, doing OK, and needed a junior to help you, so employed one, all legally, above board 35 hrs/wk contract. If he goes off sick, you will be paying £88 per week sick pay for up to six months. So, you would be down £88, a man down, so less business coming in. That is a major problem.
So, lets maintain these important rights, but it also needs some practical compromise too."
.
Your absolutely right in your analysis, the truth is the giant firms love it because it gives them a huge advantage against the little firm, the whole system has been skewed towards what benefits multinationals ... There the ones paying the huge lobbying fees and there not paying it for nothing.
They are rigging the system in they're favour as the natural course would be for small businesses to out compete them by being flexible and streamlined, if you look at it as a whole instead of individual bits you see why multinationals have proposed so very very much in the last 30 years |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I fully understand that and maybe my use of "choice" was not the best, but back to my original point. I don't think there is a single person in the UK that hasn't benefited from the work trade unions do.
Not just us but our parents, our children, our country.
OK. I agree these rights are critical and hard won.
I'm just throwing in the mix the effect on small business.
i.e Genuine sick for an employee in a large company can more easily be absorbed as it is a small proportion of overall costs.
If you were a mechanic, doing OK, and needed a junior to help you, so employed one, all legally, above board 35 hrs/wk contract. If he goes off sick, you will be paying £88 per week sick pay for up to six months. So, you would be down £88, a man down, so less business coming in. That is a major problem.
So, lets maintain these important rights, but it also needs some practical compromise too."
Ok I now understand your point. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Air transport workers striking from the 23rd DEC... "
well its the baggage handlers going on strike on the 23rd and 24th
BA cabin crew on xmas day and boxing day....
Virgin Atlantic pilots aren't going on strike but are going "work to rule" from 27th onwards.....
i think that sometimes the unions don't win the PR war with the public when deciding on whats days to actually strike....
I know that strikes on certain days will focus the bosses interests but there are ways of getting the public on your side and understanding what you are fighting for.... |
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