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Mark Duggan R.I.P.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Just watched Lawfull killing bbc1

just wondering peoples opinions ?

Personaly i find it shocking on so many levels are the police beyond the law?

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By *irtyGirlWoman over a year ago

Edinburgh

It doesn't start till 2245... how have you watched it already?

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By *eggie0111Man over a year ago

Croydon

He deserved what he got.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"It doesn't start till 2245... how have you watched it already?

must be on later in bonny scotland

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"He deserved what he got. "

whats that based on mate

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not on here in ireland yet eiher

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By *irtyGirlWoman over a year ago

Edinburgh

"It doesn't start till 2245... how have you watched it already?

must be on later in bonny scotland"

Hmmmph!

*backs out of thread to avoid spoilers*

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I think the fact that a 'lawful killing' isn't the same as Duggan being guilty of anything is a confusing concept for people.

I saw some of this programme at a screening a couple of months ago. I know they worked hard to cover as many angles as possible. I don't believe we'll ever get a full answer until there can be no comeback.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

didnt realise wasnt being aired till later ladies sorry

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Finished watching here. I really want to believe the official account of what happened but the actual events were all very convenient.

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By *inkySlinkyCouple over a year ago

Leeds

Shocking to hear that the Police never went to his mother's house to tell her he was dead.

Sally

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think the fact that a 'lawful killing' isn't the same as Duggan being guilty of anything is a confusing concept for people.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Shocking to hear that the Police never went to his mother's house to tell her he was dead.

Sally"

ever!!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Finished watching here. I really want to believe the official account of what happened but the actual events were all very convenient. "

i watched with an open mind laft me feeling that too many loose ends where left and still are

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By *aughtybooyMan over a year ago

maidstone

You live by the sword, you can expect to die by the sword

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just watched Lawfull killing bbc1

just wondering peoples opinions ?

Personaly i find it shocking on so many levels are the police beyond the law?

On the plus side, loads of rioters got new TV and trainers out of it

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Just watched Lawfull killing bbc1

just wondering peoples opinions ?

Personaly i find it shocking on so many levels are the police beyond the law?

On the plus side, loads of rioters got new TV and trainers out of it

there for the grace of god wasnt one of your family eh mate

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

He deserved what he got . He had been on the police radar

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just watched Lawfull killing bbc1

just wondering peoples opinions ?

Personaly i find it shocking on so many levels are the police beyond the law?

On the plus side, loads of rioters got new TV and trainers out of it

there for the grace of god wasnt one of your family eh mate "

My family don't tend to walk around with guns

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"He deserved what he got . He had been on the police radar "

so if the police decide to investigate you you deserve to be shot dead ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Unlawful police killing is not a new phenomenon. Without sounding like the whinging "paddy" a lot of innocent souls got shot by UK law enforcers before Duggan. Truth be told he was a wise boy who meet hi match

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 05/12/16 22:26:27]

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Just watched Lawfull killing bbc1

just wondering peoples opinions ?

Personaly i find it shocking on so many levels are the police beyond the law?

On the plus side, loads of rioters got new TV and trainers out of it

there for the grace of god wasnt one of your family eh mate

My family don't tend to walk around with guns

just think your laugh and a joke about a mans life is a bit thoughtless

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"[Removed by poster at 05/12/16 22:26:27]"

who mentioned drugs?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Unlawful police killing is not a new phenomenon. Without sounding like the whinging "paddy" a lot of innocent souls got shot by UK law enforcers before Duggan. Truth be told he was a wise boy who meet hi match "

yeah i agree its not a new phenomenom and lets just allow them to kill at will no worries eh mate

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By *aughtybooyMan over a year ago

maidstone

yeah i agree its not a new phenomenom and lets just allow them to kill at will no worries eh mate"

You seem to be quite opinionated about it! Have you taken any action what's so ever to show your concerns other than on a swinging site?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just watched Lawfull killing bbc1

just wondering peoples opinions ?

Personaly i find it shocking on so many levels are the police beyond the law?

On the plus side, loads of rioters got new TV and trainers out of it

there for the grace of god wasnt one of your family eh mate

My family don't tend to walk around with guns

just think your laugh and a joke about a mans life is a bit thoughtless "

Not thoughtless at all, I think he was carrying a gun. He could have hurt someone else. He never got tell chance. Tough titty.

All the mindless rioting that went on afterwards. People hurt and businesses damaged, because of this toe rag.

You think all that was OK? If you do, you need to reassess what's right and what's wrong.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

yeah i agree its not a new phenomenom and lets just allow them to kill at will no worries eh mate

You seem to be quite opinionated about it! Have you taken any action what's so ever to show your concerns other than on a swinging site? "

I was asking for opinions i have just watched what seems to me as a travesty of justice try to belittle the fact im on a swingers site but there are a select amount of people here whom have intelect opinions are educative

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Just watched Lawfull killing bbc1

just wondering peoples opinions ?

Personaly i find it shocking on so many levels are the police beyond the law?

On the plus side, loads of rioters got new TV and trainers out of it

there for the grace of god wasnt one of your family eh mate

My family don't tend to walk around with guns

just think your laugh and a joke about a mans life is a bit thoughtless

Not thoughtless at all, I think he was carrying a gun. He could have hurt someone else. He never got tell chance. Tough titty.

All the mindless rioting that went on afterwards. People hurt and businesses damaged, because of this toe rag.

You think all that was OK? If you do, you need to reassess what's right and what's wrong."

the fact you say ithink he was carrying a gun kinda kills your case

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Didn't watch the program, always worth remembering that no police officer has ever been convicted of a homicide related offense while on duty

When scum like PC Simon Harwood are acquitted despite a history of violence and video evidence of an unprovoked punch on an innocent man on his way home from work then it;s hard to believe that an investigation in to the death of a gun carrying drug dealer who was under surveillance is entorely objective

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's a new concept to mainlanders

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

They guy was carrying a gun .

He was shot by specialist armed police . This was not a random police arrest . He was a known drug dealer !!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan

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By *icolerobbieCouple over a year ago

walsall

"Shocking to hear that the Police never went to his mother's house to tell her he was dead.

Sally"

This amazed me as well. You would have thought that they would have done that as soon as possible.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Will there be a panorama documentary about all the lives the Duggun ruined with his gang activities and drug dealing . No I doubt it

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Will there be a panorama documentary about all the lives the Duggun ruined with his gang activities and drug dealing . No I doubt it "

No evidence of drug dealing or gang activity was ever disclosed by the police!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ????

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just watched Lawfull killing bbc1

just wondering peoples opinions ?

Personaly i find it shocking on so many levels are the police beyond the law?

On the plus side, loads of rioters got new TV and trainers out of it

there for the grace of god wasnt one of your family eh mate

My family don't tend to walk around with guns

just think your laugh and a joke about a mans life is a bit thoughtless

Not thoughtless at all, I think he was carrying a gun. He could have hurt someone else. He never got tell chance. Tough titty.

All the mindless rioting that went on afterwards. People hurt and businesses damaged, because of this toe rag.

You think all that was OK? If you do, you need to reassess what's right and what's wrong.

the fact you say ithink he was carrying a gun kinda kills your case "

He didn't say you think he was carrying a gun.

Kinda kills your response.

Do you think using the word "kills" was a good adjective?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm not in the legal profession but I'd guess if you are under police surveillance you have broken the law pretty badly

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Didn't watch the program, always worth remembering that no police officer has ever been convicted of a homicide related offense while on duty

pretty much this but will add that the vast majority of them do a difficult and at times very job which by and large we never hear about..

OP 'kill at will' sort of indicates your opinion is a bit one sided to a negative perspective..?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan "

Do they have to?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ???? "

This is about some.one in Tottenham it has nothing to do with Liverpool . You seem.to have some.odd problem bud ! The OP was posting a thread to gauge peoples opinions.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ???? "

I don;t understand what you men about scousers always needing to blame someone?

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By *icolerobbieCouple over a year ago

walsall

[Removed by poster at 05/12/16 22:54:02]

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Didn't watch the program, always worth remembering that no police officer has ever been convicted of a homicide related offense while on duty

pretty much this but will add that the vast majority of them do a difficult and at times very job which by and large we never hear about..

OP 'kill at will' sort of indicates your opinion is a bit one sided to a negative perspective..?

The fact of the matter is the police have shot and killed so many times and always walk away scot free if the police were getting jailed for some of it then maybe my opinion would change it would seem the investigations are very one sided

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ????

I don;t understand what you men about scousers always needing to blame someone?"

The OPs from Liverpool, I'm guessing it was aimed at him.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ???? "

this scouser is happy to apportion blame where its rightly shown, not sure its because of the place of my birth though..

if your making a wider point about blame and other events, then come out and say so maybe..

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan

All the Police intelligence is protected under RIPPA. You will never know, the state even had to employ a high level security cleared coroner.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ????

this scouser is happy to apportion blame where its rightly shown, not sure its because of the place of my birth though..

if your making a wider point about blame and other events, then come out and say so maybe.."

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ????

this scouser is happy to apportion blame where its rightly shown, not sure its because of the place of my birth though..

if your making a wider point about blame and other events, then come out and say so maybe.."

It has no relevance that im a scouser mate and for you to bring that up is a tad petty

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ????

I don;t understand what you men about scousers always needing to blame someone?"

i think i do but will be happily proved wrong if the poster comes back..

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By *ralbiswMan over a year ago

Exeter

I think the programme was slightly misleading by concentrating on whether he had a gun or not.

Lawful killing is not strictly dependent on whether the man had a gun or not. It is down to the firm belief of the police officer at that moment believing his, his colleagues or the public were in danger, and the policeman's belief the man was armed.

Also witness statements can be skewed and not necessarily have all the facts, especially when the witness "stumbles" across the scene.

The police are sometimes in a no win situation, and we the public rely on their judgement in these circumstances.

Remember the bloke who was shot after 7/7 - the one with the ruck sack?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ????

I don;t understand what you men about scousers always needing to blame someone?

i think i do but will be happily proved wrong if the poster comes back.."

guess UNLOS is a bit of an answer..

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan

Do they have to? "

no not by law but you would think they would have some concrete evidence that gave them justice for killing him

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ???? "

Oh he has gone , ah well such is.life

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think the programme was slightly misleading by concentrating on whether he had a gun or not.

Also witness statements can be skewed and not necessarily have all the facts, especially when the witness "stumbles" across the scene.

The police are sometimes in a no win situation, and we the public rely on their judgement in these circumstances.

Remember the bloke who was shot after 7/7 - the one with the ruck sack? "

yeah i remember mate shot several times in the head

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"I think the programme was slightly misleading by concentrating on whether he had a gun or not.

Also witness statements can be skewed and not necessarily have all the facts, especially when the witness "stumbles" across the scene.

The police are sometimes in a no win situation, and we the public rely on their judgement in these circumstances.

Remember the bloke who was shot after 7/7 - the one with the ruck sack? "

i tend to agree and anyone who has ever been in a position where they have been armed in their duties will have an inkling of some of the factors that influence ones thinking and decision making etc..

its never as clear cut as some of us imagine or like to think even if we come at it objectively..

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ????

I don;t understand what you men about scousers always needing to blame someone?

i think i do but will be happily proved wrong if the poster comes back..

guess UNLOS is a bit of an answer..

"
Unlos?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ????

I don;t understand what you men about scousers always needing to blame someone?

i think i do but will be happily proved wrong if the poster comes back..

guess UNLOS is a bit of an answer..

Unlos?"

user no longer on site, done a bunk..

the poster who said the opening line in this post..

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"What is it with scousers,,????....,he was a toe rag....chavvy mates used his death as an excuse to riot.....why do scousers always have to blame someone ????

I don;t understand what you men about scousers always needing to blame someone?

i think i do but will be happily proved wrong if the poster comes back..

guess UNLOS is a bit of an answer..

Unlos?

user no longer on site, done a bunk..

the poster who said the opening line in this post.."

o ok so enlighten me what is it you think the poster meant

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By *ralbiswMan over a year ago

Exeter

"I think the programme was slightly misleading by concentrating on whether he had a gun or not.

Also witness statements can be skewed and not necessarily have all the facts, especially when the witness "stumbles" across the scene.

The police are sometimes in a no win situation, and we the public rely on their judgement in these circumstances.

Remember the bloke who was shot after 7/7 - the one with the ruck sack?

yeah i remember mate shot several times in the head"

Because he, matching a description of a wanted man ran away when asked to stop still, the day after London's worst terrorist act.

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By *at69driveMan over a year ago

Hertford

"Just watched Lawfull killing bbc1

just wondering peoples opinions ?

Personaly i find it shocking on so many levels are the police beyond the law?

"
Sad in someways but if you are associated with firearms what do you expect.? There is a split second for the police to make a decision.

Luckily these situations are rare and are easily avoided. Dont carry fire arms or associate with anyone who has one .

The is very different to the Menzies shooting.

In one case an entirely innocent person was shot dead without any real justification whereas Mark Duggan was prepared to associate with criminals

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan

Do they have to?

no not by law but you would think they would have some concrete evidence that gave them justice for killing him"

I suspect they have some concrete evidence that gave them due cause.

I seriously doubt they walked up to a total stranger in the street and double tapped him.

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By *ralbiswMan over a year ago

Exeter

"I think the programme was slightly misleading by concentrating on whether he had a gun or not.

Also witness statements can be skewed and not necessarily have all the facts, especially when the witness "stumbles" across the scene.

The police are sometimes in a no win situation, and we the public rely on their judgement in these circumstances.

Remember the bloke who was shot after 7/7 - the one with the ruck sack?

its never as clear cut as some of us imagine or like to think even if we come at it objectively.. "

We are fortunate the armed police are trained to apply that objective thinking and can do so far better than most. They are making that decision in a split second, not after having watched a 90 minute programme on tv.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan

Do they have to?

no not by law but you would think they would have some concrete evidence that gave them justice for killing him

I suspect they have some concrete evidence that gave them due cause.

I seriously doubt they walked up to a total stranger in the street and double tapped him.

Im not saying they did and also not saying Mr Duggan was a law abiding citizen But if this is the way they deal with suspects im sure there will be a lot more coming

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think the programme was slightly misleading by concentrating on whether he had a gun or not.

Also witness statements can be skewed and not necessarily have all the facts, especially when the witness "stumbles" across the scene.

The police are sometimes in a no win situation, and we the public rely on their judgement in these circumstances.

Remember the bloke who was shot after 7/7 - the one with the ruck sack?

its never as clear cut as some of us imagine or like to think even if we come at it objectively..

Count yourself fortunate seems they are trained to kill and if they are not capable of making that decision they should not be armed

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the programme was slightly misleading by concentrating on whether he had a gun or not.

Also witness statements can be skewed and not necessarily have all the facts, especially when the witness "stumbles" across the scene.

The police are sometimes in a no win situation, and we the public rely on their judgement in these circumstances.

Remember the bloke who was shot after 7/7 - the one with the ruck sack?

its never as clear cut as some of us imagine or like to think even if we come at it objectively..

Count yourself fortunate seems they are trained to kill and if they are not capable of making that decision they should not be armed"

Do you have any idea of the training the firearms squad goes through?

Ongoing training, day in day out.

In as many differing situations, circumstances and variables that can be thought of.

How the training is reviewed and refined after every event?

The physical and mental demands they go through over and over again?

No?

Thought not......

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"He deserved what he got. "

That will turn the UK into the same s!@#ty way as the USA where people (inc police) feel they have right to decide on spot and make many many mistakes.

Downward spiral.

There is a judiciary process that has always been stuck to for all of time, which is why even now people still look towards the UK as the example of a civilised process. (Yes im fully aware there is now too much red tape and protection of the perpetrator to the detriment of the victim etc, but the point is the rules are always stuck to. And thats what matters

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think the programme was slightly misleading by concentrating on whether he had a gun or not.

Also witness statements can be skewed and not necessarily have all the facts, especially when the witness "stumbles" across the scene.

The police are sometimes in a no win situation, and we the public rely on their judgement in these circumstances.

Remember the bloke who was shot after 7/7 - the one with the ruck sack?

its never as clear cut as some of us imagine or like to think even if we come at it objectively..

Count yourself fortunate seems they are trained to kill and if they are not capable of making that decision they should not be armed

Do you have any idea of the training the firearms squad goes through?

Ongoing training, day in day out.

In as many differing situations, circumstances and variables that can be thought of.

How the training is reviewed and refined after every event?

The physical and mental demands they go through over and over again?

No?

Thought not......

Well it would seem that for all the training given they dont really put it to use in the real world and dont presume my thinking mate kinda shows your biased opinion off

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I just watched it on iPlayer. I feel so disturbed and disgusted that his mom was not told he was dead and heard from people. I'm not gonna sleep proper tonight.

Doll x

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Did you know that all UK armed Police are volunteers? They don't have to do what is an increasingly difficult and thankless job. Do they make mistakes sometimes? Of course they do. That's very different from just wandering around shooting even known criminals at random, which is what is implied in this thread. Each police shooting is scrutinised by the IPCC, and they make a determination as to whether it was justified, but that's not always the end of it. I'm surprised they still volunteer but I believe the numbers are falling due to the potential for being pilloried for doing their job. This at a time when we've never needed them more. If they all throw in their tickets and return to unarmed policing, who are you going to call when we get a Mumbai, Paris, or Nice?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Did you know that all UK armed Police are volunteers? They don't have to do what is an increasingly difficult and thankless job. Do they make mistakes sometimes? Of course they do. That's very different from just wandering around shooting even known criminals at random, which is what is implied in this thread. Each police shooting is scrutinised by the IPCC, and they make a determination as to whether it was justified, but that's not always the end of it. I'm surprised they still volunteer but I believe the numbers are falling due to the potential for being pilloried for doing their job. This at a time when we've never needed them more. If they all throw in their tickets and return to unarmed policing, who are you going to call when we get a Mumbai, Paris, or Nice?"

No one is saying they wander around killing known criminals it was concluded as an lawful killing when clearly still unanswered questions and doubts about the police statements etc

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I just watched it on iPlayer. I feel so disturbed and disgusted that his mom was not told he was dead and heard from people. I'm not gonna sleep proper tonight.

Doll x"

Shocking i know heart goes out to his mother

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

You're comparing apples and oranges, dude.

It's not good enough to say you're scared and that we need more police with more guns.

You might ask how a police raid on a drugs suspect gone wrong is comparable with a co-ordinated attack on an Indian hotel... aw, forget it.

Be afraid!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You're comparing apples and oranges, dude.

It's not good enough to say you're scared and that we need more police with more guns.

You might ask how a police raid on a drugs suspect gone wrong is comparable with a co-ordinated attack on an Indian hotel... aw, forget it.

Be afraid! "

He never compared them. l read it paraphrased as ''Who will we turn to in those terrorist situations if the armed polices numbers are falling due to the stigma.''

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

You're comparing apples and oranges, dude.

It's not good enough to say you're scared and that we need more police with more guns.

You might ask how a police raid on a drugs suspect gone wrong is comparable with a co-ordinated attack on an Indian hotel... aw, forget it.

Be afraid!

He never compared them. l read it paraphrased as ''Who will we turn to in those terrorist situations if the armed polices numbers are falling due to the stigma.''"

It's a facile connection

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You're comparing apples and oranges, dude.

It's not good enough to say you're scared and that we need more police with more guns.

You might ask how a police raid on a drugs suspect gone wrong is comparable with a co-ordinated attack on an Indian hotel... aw, forget it.

Be afraid!

He never compared them. l read it paraphrased as ''Who will we turn to in those terrorist situations if the armed polices numbers are falling due to the stigma.''

It's a facile connection"

Says who? The Guardian?

The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

You're comparing apples and oranges, dude.

It's not good enough to say you're scared and that we need more police with more guns.

You might ask how a police raid on a drugs suspect gone wrong is comparable with a co-ordinated attack on an Indian hotel... aw, forget it.

Be afraid!

He never compared them. l read it paraphrased as ''Who will we turn to in those terrorist situations if the armed polices numbers are falling due to the stigma.''

It's a facile connection"

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant."

Is that so?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It was all very sketchy in the program. Mark duggan probably wasn't a law abiding citizen but did he deserve to die that day?No. the police officer probably is a very law abiding citizen but did he set out to kill him? No.

I do think the riots went well out of control but I do think the community around mark duggan deserved to stand up to find some justice to why they were treated that way

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?"

lndeedy.

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By *ire_bladeMan over a year ago

Manchester

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?

lndeedy.

Wish I could say the same

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So what your saying is if no police volunteer we wouldnt have armed police on the streets? Find that hard to believe

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?"

Let me tell you a story about the local cops who left a man who had been terrorised by neighbours to fend for himself despite all attempts to report that behaviour.

One August evening, in Brue Close, a housing estate in Weston-super-Mare, police and emergency services were called to No 39. Two police cars, a police van, a dog and several officers arrived. They saw a crowd of hostile white adults, “an angry mob” and a middle-aged black man standing in his front garden bleeding profusely from a head wound. His five-year-old daughter was distraught. The emergency services were responding to two separate reports. The first came from Kim Jones, the tenant at No 39, requesting urgent help for her partner, Tajudeen “Deen” Taiwo. She said he had been the victim of a racial assault. His head had been banged against a wall, cracking it open. The second call said a black man had a knife.

What subsequently unfolded is to become part of an innovatory attempt by Avon and Somerset police to challenge police behaviour and attitudes that consciously or otherwise sanction hate crime. Following his arrest, a publicly humiliated Taiwo was taken to hospital in handcuffs to have his head wound treated. He needed 14 stitches. He was kept in custody for 35 hours in total and charged with a number of offences, including possession of an offensive weapon and threats to kill while his family, which includes two boys from an earlier relationship of Jones’s, were left without support on an estate with hostile neighbours.

This is a case I'm familiar with.

I can cite others, if you like?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

You're comparing apples and oranges, dude.

It's not good enough to say you're scared and that we need more police with more guns.

You might ask how a police raid on a drugs suspect gone wrong is comparable with a co-ordinated attack on an Indian hotel... aw, forget it.

Be afraid!

He never compared them. l read it paraphrased as ''Who will we turn to in those terrorist situations if the armed polices numbers are falling due to the stigma.''

It's a facile connection

Says who? The Guardian?

The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant."

Have you ever wondered why the massive culture change has happened ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?

lndeedy.

Wish I could say the same "

l wish that too. l've yet to have a bad experience.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

I happen to know someone who sits on the Avon & Somerset Police Complaints Commission.

It's a shit shower from top to bottom.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You're comparing apples and oranges, dude.

It's not good enough to say you're scared and that we need more police with more guns.

You might ask how a police raid on a drugs suspect gone wrong is comparable with a co-ordinated attack on an Indian hotel... aw, forget it.

Be afraid!

He never compared them. l read it paraphrased as ''Who will we turn to in those terrorist situations if the armed polices numbers are falling due to the stigma.''

It's a facile connection

Says who? The Guardian?

The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Have you ever wondered why the massive culture change has happened ? "

Yes because it's a fun narrative for people who want to feel a sense of moral victory or supremacy. Fuck da police!!....unless my house gets tanned or l get mugged, then ring 999.

The police are an easy targets for such because the cases of dirty police are quite widespread...as the guy posting that scenario has highlighted.

No doubt there are arsehole coppers but they are the minority.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

You're comparing apples and oranges, dude.

It's not good enough to say you're scared and that we need more police with more guns.

You might ask how a police raid on a drugs suspect gone wrong is comparable with a co-ordinated attack on an Indian hotel... aw, forget it.

Be afraid!

He never compared them. l read it paraphrased as ''Who will we turn to in those terrorist situations if the armed polices numbers are falling due to the stigma.''

It's a facile connection

Says who? The Guardian?

The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Have you ever wondered why the massive culture change has happened ?

Yes because it's a fun narrative for people who want to feel a sense of moral victory or supremacy. Fuck da police!!....unless my house gets tanned or l get mugged, then ring 999.

The police are an easy targets for such because the cases of dirty police are quite widespread...as the guy posting that scenario has highlighted.

No doubt there are arsehole coppers but they are the minority. "

So you won't answer my charge that there are serious questions for the police to answer when they deal with crimes?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?

Let me tell you a story about the local cops who left a man who had been terrorised by neighbours to fend for himself despite all attempts to report that behaviour.

This is a case I'm familiar with.

I can cite others, if you like?

You can cite as many as you like but that's not how you can change someone's mind. Citing a few cases of bad cops and then go ''See!''

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

I was listening to a programme where a retired copper got involved with the case of the friend of a grandson who was charged d*unk & disorderly following a night out, arrested, charged with resisting arrest and assulting a police officer.

4 police swore on oath in the dock that what had happened was true.

CCTV demolished the lot.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?

Let me tell you a story about the local cops who left a man who had been terrorised by neighbours to fend for himself despite all attempts to report that behaviour.

This is a case I'm familiar with.

I can cite others, if you like?

You can cite as many as you like but that's not how you can change someone's mind. Citing a few cases of bad cops and then go ''See!''

There are plenty more, that's the problem

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I happen to know someone who sits on the Avon & Somerset Police Complaints Commission.

It's a shit shower from top to bottom.

My cousin is a cop. Straight from Uni. Don't misconstrue the inefficiency and bureaucracy of the emergency services as moral corruption.

Apples and oranges you said.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

There have been 62 fatal shootings by police since 1990 in England and Wales lets not bring northern ireland into this would go up a lot more if we were to look at deaths other than shootings it gets a bit messy . And in all of this you can count on your fingers the police convicted of these acts.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?

Let me tell you a story about the local cops who left a man who had been terrorised by neighbours to fend for himself despite all attempts to report that behaviour.

This is a case I'm familiar with.

I can cite others, if you like?

You can cite as many as you like but that's not how you can change someone's mind. Citing a few cases of bad cops and then go ''See!''

There are plenty more, that's the problem"

Do l really have to find a story of a police man rescuing a kitten from a tree to neutralise your stories?

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

I know an autistic lad who, last Xmas Eve, was out in town with a mate after kicking out time when he heard so people shouting racist abuse at some Turks.

The autistic boy intervened and was beaten to the groundm his jaw was fractured. When his friend attempted to stop them he was beaten with an iron bar and his arm broken in two places.

The cops singularly failed to follow up any leads and picked up the wrong CCTV footage.

CCTV was lost - oops, sorry, bit of shit police work there. Never mind about your head or arm.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?

Let me tell you a story about the local cops who left a man who had been terrorised by neighbours to fend for himself despite all attempts to report that behaviour.

This is a case I'm familiar with.

I can cite others, if you like?

You can cite as many as you like but that's not how you can change someone's mind. Citing a few cases of bad cops and then go ''See!''

There are plenty more, that's the problem

Do l really have to find a story of a police man rescuing a kitten from a tree to neutralise your stories?

Again, that's facile

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

And Mark Duggan, what you have to understand about that case is that it fitted into a longer continuum of botched police raids and accidental killings... and then with the way the police handled it subsequently.

That's why people got angry.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?

Let me tell you a story about the local cops who left a man who had been terrorised by neighbours to fend for himself despite all attempts to report that behaviour.

This is a case I'm familiar with.

I can cite others, if you like?

You can cite as many as you like but that's not how you can change someone's mind. Citing a few cases of bad cops and then go ''See!''

There are plenty more, that's the problem

Do l really have to find a story of a police man rescuing a kitten from a tree to neutralise your stories?

Again, that's facile"

l agree. lt is facile. You don't pluck one or two or three cases and then say ''Alas, there are many more!'' and then act as if that is proof.

You can construct ANY narrative by doing that.

C'mon now, stop being silly.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"And Mark Duggan, what you have to understand about that case is that it fitted into a longer continuum of botched police raids and accidental killings... and then with the way the police handled it subsequently.

That's why people got angry."

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?

Let me tell you a story about the local cops who left a man who had been terrorised by neighbours to fend for himself despite all attempts to report that behaviour.

This is a case I'm familiar with.

I can cite others, if you like?

You can cite as many as you like but that's not how you can change someone's mind. Citing a few cases of bad cops and then go ''See!''

There are plenty more, that's the problem

Do l really have to find a story of a police man rescuing a kitten from a tree to neutralise your stories?

Again, that's facile

l agree. lt is facile. You don't pluck one or two or three cases and then say ''Alas, there are many more!'' and then act as if that is proof.

You can construct ANY narrative by doing that.

C'mon now, stop being silly."

No, the case I cited was used as a window into the conduct of Avon & Somerset Police and how they handle hate crimes.

It was the subject of much publicity at the time and was even made into an ITV documentary.

The point it that it's not isolated - it's emblematic.

So don;t be silly.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

" The police have never been demonised so much. There has been as massive culture change regarding how people view the police.

Shame really because most are good and all my interactions with them have been pleasant.

Is that so?

Let me tell you a story about the local cops who left a man who had been terrorised by neighbours to fend for himself despite all attempts to report that behaviour.

This is a case I'm familiar with.

I can cite others, if you like?

You can cite as many as you like but that's not how you can change someone's mind. Citing a few cases of bad cops and then go ''See!''

There are plenty more, that's the problem

Do l really have to find a story of a police man rescuing a kitten from a tree to neutralise your stories?

Again, that's facile

l agree. lt is facile. You don't pluck one or two or three cases and then say ''Alas, there are many more!'' and then act as if that is proof.

You can construct ANY narrative by doing that.

C'mon now, stop being silly."
There have been 62 fatal shootings by police since 1990 in England and Wales lets not bring northern ireland into this would go up a lot more if we were to look at deaths other than shootings it gets a bit messy . And in all of this you can count on your fingers the police convicted of these acts.

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By *VBethTV/TS over a year ago

Chester

Firearms teams are indeed all volunteers and are absolutely not required (and cannot be compelled) to do it. There are lots of "experts" out there who make judgements on the basis of YouTube videos and t.v. documentaries and I wouldn't trust them to make a spilt second decision in a high pressure situation. Fact is that nobody is infallible but they do the best they can. If an innocent person dies then it is deplorable and will be investigated. If that person was believed to be a threat to life at that point and if there is no other way to stop them then and only then are firearms used.

I don't have their expertise or their training and therefore I have no right to judge them.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Firearms teams are indeed all volunteers and are absolutely not required (and cannot be compelled) to do it. There are lots of "experts" out there who make judgements on the basis of YouTube videos and t.v. documentaries and I wouldn't trust them to make a spilt second decision in a high pressure situation. Fact is that nobody is infallible but they do the best they can. If an innocent person dies then it is deplorable and will be investigated. If that person was believed to be a threat to life at that point and if there is no other way to stop them then and only then are firearms used.

I don't have their expertise or their training and therefore I have no right to judge them. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Azelle_Rodney

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I don't have their expertise or their training and therefore I have no right to judge them. "

I find doing the best they can is not good enough if thats the best they can do they are badly lacking in precision and no other way to stop them is a bad shout they could of in this case arrested them both before it got that far

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I've not watched the documentary yet but I will say I'd rather people be tried in a court of law rather than armed police being judge, jury and executioner. If I'm allowed to say that being where I'm from without people on here casting aspersions.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I've not watched the documentary yet but I will say I'd rather people be tried in a court of law rather than armed police being judge, jury and executioner. If I'm allowed to say that being where I'm from without people on here casting aspersions."

your allowed to say that and has no reflection on where you are from

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By *VBethTV/TS over a year ago

Chester

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Azelle_Rodney

Ok. If you did see someone move their hands in the back of a dark car you know contains firearms, do you a) shoot or b) wait for a colleague to be killed. Yes 8 shots is an overreaction but none of us, none of the jury or the commission were there at that moment under that pressure. Stopping a car known to contain guns and ammo took a lot of bravery in itself. I'm damn sure I wouldn't want to.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Azelle_Rodney

If you cant stand the heat get out the kitchen

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By *VBethTV/TS over a year ago

Chester

Of course a court of law is better but if the suspect is believed to be armed, just saying "you're under arrest" doesn't freeze him in place and prevent him using a weapon. If you have to use a firearm to stop him then you do, and you aim for the largest part of the target. Kneecap shots and shooting guns out of hands only happens in films.

And it doesn't matter where you're from.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Azelle_Rodney

An "overreaction"?

Ok...

No guns here, just lies...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson

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By *VBethTV/TS over a year ago

Chester

If you cant stand the heat get out the kitchen"

Great plan. So when there are zero armed police left because they're sick of being judged by YouTube jurors and some scum is holding up a bookies with a gun we'll simply shout STOP right?

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By *VBethTV/TS over a year ago

Chester

An "overreaction"?

Ok...

No guns here, just lies...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson"

I'm not saying the police are perfect or beyond reproach. Sometimes they are wrong. My point is simply that people making judgements with the benefit of long documentaries and wiki pages didn't have to make a split second decision.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

If you cant stand the heat get out the kitchen

Great plan. So when there are zero armed police left because they're sick of being judged by YouTube jurors and some scum is holding up a bookies with a gun we'll simply shout STOP right? "

no one saying that the point is the competence behind the police and the fact that they predominantley walk away from these instances constantly

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

An "overreaction"?

Ok...

No guns here, just lies...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson

Kind of my point really. x

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

An "overreaction"?

Ok...

No guns here, just lies...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson

this is not a one off occurence and my judgement is not from youtube nor wiki yes the program tonight only hieghtened the facts And if you are not competent enough to make that split decision then you shoudnt be behind a trigger

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By *VBethTV/TS over a year ago

Chester

no one saying that the point is the competence behind the police and the fact that they predominantley walk away from these instances constantly"

Trying to get the CPS to prosecute any case is hard enough. Which is why they are referred to as Clowns Pretending to be Solicitors or Couldn't Prosecute Satan.

If there is not massive amounts of totally convincing evidence then they don't prosecute. Nobody wants to be responsible.

I know people want there to be a huge conspiracy in the police and of course there are some bad apples as there are in every walk of life. But I really don't see how it could be done better with the tools we have.

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By *VBethTV/TS over a year ago

Chester

Facts is a troublesome word. Whose facts?

Who judges their competence. Only someone even better at it surely. They train constantly. How much more could they do. I'd love someone to give a practical way of making it better..... the vast majority of them are amazing. The few who do wrong should be dealt with by the authorities. Either way, we don't have the specialist knowledge to know what was right.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

An "overreaction"?

Ok...

No guns here, just lies...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson

Correct.

And we're a long way from having police like France, the US or (god help us) Colombia...

But that's not a passport to behaving as if no matter what you do it's justified, which is what I do see amongst the police.

I've worked closely with the police in various capacities. I've worked with career criminals and some very sick fucks in a professional capacity. It is my professional and personal opinion that you would notice the failings of the police force if you weren't white.

I've cited a number of cases on this thread... but while your odds of dying from the cops in this country is low there are considerable problems with the forces. They are overwhelmingly white, male and, oddly enough more than 3,000 police officers are being investigated for alleged assault – with black and Asian people significantly more likely than white people to complain of police brutality.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-37372957

And if by 'making judgments with the benefit of long documentaries and wiki pages' you mean taking the facts into consideration then truly we have entered the 'post-truth' world.

What do experts or juries know? They weren't there!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

no one saying that the point is the competence behind the police and the fact that they predominantley walk away from these instances constantly

Trying to get the CPS to prosecute any case is hard enough. Which is why they are referred to as Clowns Pretending to be Solicitors or Couldn't Prosecute Satan.

If there is not massive amounts of totally convincing evidence then they don't prosecute. Nobody wants to be responsible.

There is a huge conspiracy in the police we have a team here the matrix gun crime serious crime have first hand information in there behaviour they are as corrupt as the villians and documented too it is rife everywhere you are allowed your opinion just feel you are a bit naive

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

An "overreaction"?

Ok...

No guns here, just lies...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Ian_Tomlinson

Correct.

And we're a long way from having police like France, the US or (god help us) Colombia...

But that's not a passport to behaving as if no matter what you do it's justified, which is what I do see amongst the police.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-37372957

And if by 'making judgments with the benefit of long documentaries and wiki pages' you mean taking the facts into consideration then truly we have entered the 'post-truth' world.

What do experts or juries know? They weren't there!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

How can you say he got what he deserved. No he didn't. Only ever had 2 minor offences the police should of arrested the other guy simple as. The police well they are just the biggest gang going. They Blatantly plated that gun. All the police stories didn't even match up and to not even bother to tell his mum and family just to knock on the door and say your son blah blah blah that's wrong on so many levels!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Look at that guy Roul mout or whatever his name is. After he killed 3 people they negotiated with him for 6 hours before he shot and killed himself. Why didn't they do that with Mark Duggan

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By *VBethTV/TS over a year ago

Chester

Correct.

And we're a long way from having police like France, the US or (god help us) Colombia...

But that's not a passport to behaving as if no matter what you do it's justified, which is what I do see amongst the police.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-37372957

And if by 'making judgments with the benefit of long documentaries and wiki pages' you mean taking the facts into consideration then truly we have entered the 'post-truth' world.

What do experts or juries know? They weren't there!

Last one as I'm off to bed. I have friends in the police (not firearms). I know they are mainly white and male. But you cannot force people of other races and females to join up just to please equal ops. With applications limited, and more officers needed. Do you turn down the white males in the hope that some other ethnicities might apply to join tomorrow?

It's also pretty much par for the course to put in an assault complaint when you're arrested if there's the slightest chance it will help your case. Likewise with faking chest pains or threatening suicide. When (if) the case against them goes to court then the default defence includes a new partner, child on the way and potential job in the near future. All good ploys to stay out of jail and usually bulls**t.

As for making judgments, I refer to keyboard warriors and the like. Of course juries should have all the available information.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Look at that guy Roul mout or whatever his name is. After he killed 3 people they negotiated with him for 6 hours before he shot and killed himself. Why didn't they do that with Mark Duggan"

Police foil Moat with drawbridge

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By *VBethTV/TS over a year ago

Chester

"Look at that guy Roul mout or whatever his name is. After he killed 3 people they negotiated with him for 6 hours before he shot and killed himself. Why didn't they do that with Mark Duggan"

Because moat was pointing the gun at himself at the time. If he had turned it on anyone else he would have been slotted immediately.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Correct.

And we're a long way from having police like France, the US or (god help us) Colombia...

But that's not a passport to behaving as if no matter what you do it's justified, which is what I do see amongst the police.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-37372957

And if by 'making judgments with the benefit of long documentaries and wiki pages' you mean taking the facts into consideration then truly we have entered the 'post-truth' world.

What do experts or juries know? They weren't there!

As for making judgments, I refer to keyboard warriors and the like. Of course juries should have all the available information. "

And yet the police do make mistakes - as I have highlighted throughout this thread - and are not above the law themselves.

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By *VBethTV/TS over a year ago

Chester

And yet the police do make mistakes - as I have highlighted throughout this thread - and are not above the law themselves."

I never said they didn't and I never said they are. Simply saying we aren't experts. Even if we have watched all the documentaries.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Are you taking the piss. He was involved in gangs and drugs and also had firearms. Good job he is dead. One less dick head on the streets.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

And yet the police do make mistakes - as I have highlighted throughout this thread - and are not above the law themselves.

I never said they didn't and I never said they are. Simply saying we aren't experts. Even if we have watched all the documentaries. "

I don;t watch TV docs - I have a close professional connection to the criminal justice system, an acquaintance on the Police Complaints Commission and an interest in police wrongdoings

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Are you taking the piss. He was involved in gangs and drugs and also had firearms. Good job he is dead. One less dick head on the streets."

^ ...is the problem with this kinda debate.

Shoot 'em all - God will know his own.

No thank you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Are you taking the piss. He was involved in gangs and drugs and also had firearms. Good job he is dead. One less dick head on the streets."

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the programme was slightly misleading by concentrating on whether he had a gun or not.

Also witness statements can be skewed and not necessarily have all the facts, especially when the witness "stumbles" across the scene.

The police are sometimes in a no win situation, and we the public rely on their judgement in these circumstances.

Remember the bloke who was shot after 7/7 - the one with the ruck sack?

its never as clear cut as some of us imagine or like to think even if we come at it objectively..

Count yourself fortunate seems they are trained to kill and if they are not capable of making that decision they should not be armed

Do you have any idea of the training the firearms squad goes through?

Ongoing training, day in day out.

In as many differing situations, circumstances and variables that can be thought of.

How the training is reviewed and refined after every event?

The physical and mental demands they go through over and over again?

No?

Thought not......

Well it would seem that for all the training given they dont really put it to use in the real world and dont presume my thinking mate kinda shows your biased opinion off

"My" biased opinion?

Have you actually read your own comments?

I'll go get the gaffa tape......

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what your saying is if no police volunteer we wouldnt have armed police on the streets? Find that hard to believe

Errrrrr yes. That's exactly what would happen.

The firearms squad are all volunteers.

So if no one volunteers there will be no armed police.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

We're gonna need more gaffa tape aren't we......

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There have been 62 fatal shootings by police since 1990 in England and Wales lets not bring northern ireland into this would go up a lot more if we were to look at deaths other than shootings it gets a bit messy . And in all of this you can count on your fingers the police convicted of these acts."

Any idea why no police have been convicted?

I'm going to guess it's because they haven't committed a crime.

This isn't difficult to grasp.

Do you need any salt and vinegar?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Look at that guy Roul mout or whatever his name is. After he killed 3 people they negotiated with him for 6 hours before he shot and killed himself. Why didn't they do that with Mark Duggan"

Because the situations were very different.

Simple really.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Look at that guy Roul mout or whatever his name is. After he killed 3 people they negotiated with him for 6 hours before he shot and killed himself. Why didn't they do that with Mark Duggan"

Can you not see why the 2 scenarios are entirely different? At the point Moat was cornered it's effectively a concern for welfare where the police are trying to prevent a suicide. If he'd come out shooting it would have been different?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I just watched it on iPlayer. I feel so disturbed and disgusted that his mom was not told he was dead and heard from people. I'm not gonna sleep proper tonight.

Doll x"

Was his mother his next of kin? (genuine question)

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By *ikeC81Man over a year ago

harrow

I haven't watched it yet but if the police were watching him they must of had a reason either he was suspicious of they had intelligence to say he was

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Every firearms officer knows the scrutiny and possible legal action they face if they discharge their weapon so they don't do so without just cause.

Duggan had a gun and were they to wait until he had shot and possibly killed an officer before returning fire?

In my opinion; you carry a gun you have to be prepared to be shot by the police

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Every firearms officer knows the scrutiny and possible legal action they face if they discharge their weapon so they don't do so without just cause.

Duggan had a gun and were they to wait until he had shot and possibly killed an officer before returning fire?

In my opinion; you carry a gun you have to be prepared to be shot by the police"

What he said. ^^^^^^^^^

Safety of themselves and those around them paramount.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what your saying is if no police volunteer we wouldnt have armed police on the streets? Find that hard to believe

Errrrrr yes. That's exactly what would happen.

The firearms squad are all volunteers.

So if no one volunteers there will be no armed police.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

We're gonna need more gaffa tape aren't we......

Actually, what would happen is that if no officers volunteered to carry firearms, the government would have no option but to arm all police, including those that don't want to carry, or really shouldn't be carrying. Think about that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what your saying is if no police volunteer we wouldnt have armed police on the streets? Find that hard to believe

Errrrrr yes. That's exactly what would happen.

The firearms squad are all volunteers.

So if no one volunteers there will be no armed police.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

We're gonna need more gaffa tape aren't we......

I beg to differ, they would have two options.

Force them all to be armed or allow them not to be.

As it's only a very small number who volunteer it's safe to believe the overwhelming majority don't want to be armed.

What do you think would happen if the majority were forced to carry a firearm?

I'll suggest two hypothesis;

1. They'll all leave.

2. They'll never draw their weapon.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Are you taking the piss. He was involved in gangs and drugs and also had firearms. Good job he is dead. One less dick head on the streets.

^ ...is the problem with this kinda debate.

He had a weapon. End of story

Shoot 'em all - God will know his own.

No thank you."

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By *iss_tressWoman over a year ago

London

[Removed by poster at 06/12/16 09:01:43]

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By *iss_tressWoman over a year ago

London

"He deserved what he got . He had been on the police radar "

I didn't watched the programme, and have very little sympathy for those who engage in any kind of illegal activity, but the idea you can be shot for being on the police radar and you think that's okay beggars belief.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"[Removed by poster at 06/12/16 09:01:43]"

He had a gun. No more reason is needed

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By *rnortholtMan over a year ago

Waveney Valley & London

"the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan

Do they have to? "

Yes if it goes to a criminal court....no if they shoot him dead and it goes through the inquest system. That's not a view on what happened with Mr Duggan...just a statement of fact.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Look at that guy Roul mout or whatever his name is. After he killed 3 people they negotiated with him for 6 hours before he shot and killed himself. Why didn't they do that with Mark Duggan

Because moat was pointing the gun at himself at the time. If he had turned it on anyone else he would have been slotted immediately. "

niether did mr Duggan

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan

Do they have to?

Yes if it goes to a criminal court....no if they shoot him dead and it goes through the inquest system. That's not a view on what happened with Mr Duggan...just a statement of fact."
the term fact is based on?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"[Removed by poster at 06/12/16 09:01:43]

He had a gun. No more reason is needed "

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"[Removed by poster at 06/12/16 09:01:43]

He had a gun. No more reason is needed "
drr ok mate

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"He deserved what he got . He had been on the police radar

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think the programme was slightly misleading by concentrating on whether he had a gun or not.

Also witness statements can be skewed and not necessarily have all the facts, especially when the witness "stumbles" across the scene.

The police are sometimes in a no win situation, and we the public rely on their judgement in these circumstances.

Remember the bloke who was shot after 7/7 - the one with the ruck sack?

its never as clear cut as some of us imagine or like to think even if we come at it objectively..

Count yourself fortunate seems they are trained to kill and if they are not capable of making that decision they should not be armed

Do you have any idea of the training the firearms squad goes through?

Ongoing training, day in day out.

In as many differing situations, circumstances and variables that can be thought of.

How the training is reviewed and refined after every event?

The physical and mental demands they go through over and over again?

No?

Thought not......

Well it would seem that for all the training given they dont really put it to use in the real world and dont presume my thinking mate kinda shows your biased opinion off

"My" biased opinion?

Have you actually read your own comments?

I'll go get the gaffa tape......

"
good idea keep wrapping it around your head

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So what your saying is if no police volunteer we wouldnt have armed police on the streets? Find that hard to believe

Errrrrr yes. That's exactly what would happen.

The firearms squad are all volunteers.

So if no one volunteers there will be no armed police.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

We're gonna need more gaffa tape aren't we......

i think you are very niave to think if no one volunteered there would be no armed police all stood around wondering what too do eh

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"[Removed by poster at 06/12/16 09:01:43]

He had a gun. No more reason is needed drr ok mate"

So he didnt have a gun then??

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"He deserved what he got . He had been on the police radar

He had a gun. Let's be real here: a drug dealer with a gun gets shot and the Left want turn him into Rosa Parks.

Sick.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"[Removed by poster at 06/12/16 09:01:43]

He had a gun. No more reason is needed drr ok mate

So he didnt have a gun then??"

there was a gun yes the police have stated they had information he had one but they had no concrete evidence he did when they shot him

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"He deserved what he got . He had been on the police radar

He had a gun. Let's be real here: a drug dealer with a gun gets shot and the Left want turn him into Rosa Parks.

Sick."
left?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what your saying is they should have waited till he shot someone 1st then everything would have been fine. You very clearly know nothing about the subject of being armed and having that responsibility. I do. If they felt their live was in danger or the lives of others then they are allowed to use lethal force. He was a known drug dealer suspected of having a fire arm. They did the right thing and there should have never been an inquest.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what your saying is if no police volunteer we wouldnt have armed police on the streets? Find that hard to believe

Errrrrr yes. That's exactly what would happen.

The firearms squad are all volunteers.

So if no one volunteers there will be no armed police.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

We're gonna need more gaffa tape aren't we......

i think you are very niave to think if no one volunteered there would be no armed police all stood around wondering what too do eh "

I suspect that there will always be volunteers, even if the numbers do go down. I think that we need to put more support in place for our guys, so that should they have to shoot someone, they aren't vilified and hung out to dry.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So what your saying is they should have waited till he shot someone 1st then everything would have been fine. You very clearly know nothing about the subject of being armed and having that responsibility. I do. If they felt their live was in danger or the lives of others then they are allowed to use lethal force. He was a known drug dealer suspected of having a fire arm. They did the right thing and there should have never been an inquest."

Its just the lefty liberals do gooding again.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan

Do they have to?

Yes if it goes to a criminal court....no if they shoot him dead and it goes through the inquest system. That's not a view on what happened with Mr Duggan...just a statement of fact."

And as this didn't go to a criminal court they didn't have to, correct?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I agree with everything you said except the inquest.

There should always be an inquest to help determine if the decisons made were correct in the circumstances.

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By *verysmileMan over a year ago

Canterbury

So the question you have to ask is if you were the commander on the ground. The intelligence says he is a gang member and definitely not a complete innocent. The intelligence indicates has collected a gun. Do you ignore this? Do you let the gun disappear into gangland or not? So you intercept the vehicle and the suspect makes a move which may indicate that he is endangering others.

Sorry but a live ongoing situation is different from the cold light of day after the event. I am not sure anyone here can speak with any experience of a similar live operational situation.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what your saying is if no police volunteer we wouldnt have armed police on the streets? Find that hard to believe

Errrrrr yes. That's exactly what would happen.

The firearms squad are all volunteers.

So if no one volunteers there will be no armed police.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

We're gonna need more gaffa tape aren't we......

i think you are very niave to think if no one volunteered there would be no armed police all stood around wondering what too do eh "

Bizarre. What do you think unarmed police do all day?

Genuine question.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So the question you have to ask is if you were the commander on the ground. The intelligence says he is a gang member and definitely not a complete innocent. The intelligence indicates has collected a gun. Do you ignore this? Do you let the gun disappear into gangland or not? So you intercept the vehicle and the suspect makes a move which may indicate that he is endangering others.

Sorry but a live ongoing situation is different from the cold light of day after the event. I am not sure anyone here can speak with any experience of a similar live operational situation."

Some people can.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sorry but a live ongoing situation is different from the cold light of day after the event. I am not sure anyone here can speak with any experience of a similar live operational situation."

I speak with plenty of experience. Patroling the streets of northern Ireland where it ismt silly little boys playing gangster.

If i was in command in that situation with that int id open fire every time. The men carrying these weapons will have spent hours and hours in a class room learning all about body language and studying the ruels of engagement they know exactly what they are doing its only after the incident the dick head brigade come along to try to punish the police. Lets say they didn't shoot him and he pulled the weapon and killed innocent people. Then it would be " bloody police not doing their jobs"

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So what your saying is if no police volunteer we wouldnt have armed police on the streets? Find that hard to believe

Errrrrr yes. That's exactly what would happen.

The firearms squad are all volunteers.

So if no one volunteers there will be no armed police.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand.

We're gonna need more gaffa tape aren't we......

i think you are very niave to think if no one volunteered there would be no armed police all stood around wondering what too do eh

Bizarre. What do you think unarmed police do all day?

Genuine question."

irrellevant the statement was there would be no armed police if no one volunteered

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Sorry but a live ongoing situation is different from the cold light of day after the event. I am not sure anyone here can speak with any experience of a similar live operational situation.

I speak with plenty of experience. Patroling the streets of northern Ireland where it ismt silly little boys playing gangster.

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By *verysmileMan over a year ago

Canterbury

Sorry but a live ongoing situation is different from the cold light of day after the event. I am not sure anyone here can speak with any experience of a similar live operational situation.

I speak with plenty of experience. Patroling the streets of northern Ireland where it ismt silly little boys playing gangster.

Exactly the point that I was trying to make.

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By *verysmileMan over a year ago

Canterbury

Sorry but a live ongoing situation is different from the cold light of day after the event. I am not sure anyone here can speak with any experience of a similar live operational situation.

I speak with plenty of experience. Patroling the streets of northern Ireland where it ismt silly little boys playing gangster.

How do you link the two events? What criteria are you using?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan

Do they have to?

Yes if it goes to a criminal court....no if they shoot him dead and it goes through the inquest system. That's not a view on what happened with Mr Duggan...just a statement of fact."

That's not actually a statement of fact.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Sorry but a live ongoing situation is different from the cold light of day after the event. I am not sure anyone here can speak with any experience of a similar live operational situation.

I speak with plenty of experience. Patroling the streets of northern Ireland where it ismt silly little boys playing gangster.

Exactly the point that I was trying to make. "
lets say they arrested him before he got the gun just a thought

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sorry but a live ongoing situation is different from the cold light of day after the event. I am not sure anyone here can speak with any experience of a similar live operational situation.

I speak with plenty of experience. Patroling the streets of northern Ireland where it ismt silly little boys playing gangster.

Id be very surprised if you knew abything about bloody sunday. If you know the subject ( not just what the papers say) then id be happy to talk about it. My battalion was there at the time. Obviously i wasn't.

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By *cduck and Blue eyesCouple over a year ago

nr chester

"the police have never disclosed why he was under obs have never supplied evidence about anything criminal relating to Mr Duggan

Do they have to?

Yes if it goes to a criminal court....no if they shoot him dead and it goes through the inquest system. That's not a view on what happened with Mr Duggan...just a statement of fact.

And as this didn't go to a criminal court they didn't have to, correct?

"
. Nope not correct sorry peeps, any death in this situation will always go to inquest and that inquest will not be the normal inquest you may be familiar with, it would be what's known as an article 2, and all facts in the case, including what if any criminal activity had taken place, would be part of that inquest, but those facts do not have to be disclosed to the general public. Mrs blue eyes

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sorry but a live ongoing situation is different from the cold light of day after the event. I am not sure anyone here can speak with any experience of a similar live operational situation.

I speak with plenty of experience. Patroling the streets of northern Ireland where it ismt silly little boys playing gangster.

I am with you on this. Gangsters, criminals who make a conscious choice to carry weapons know that there is a chance that it will end badly for them. But rather for them then me, my family, friends etc who get caught up in some situation whilst out shopping, dining out, going to the pictures etc. Society has gone too much the wrong way giving criminals 'Rights'. Pick up a weapon illegally, and you forfeit whatever rights a civilised society has given you. Personally, I wouldn't like to live in a modern version of Dodge City and have to avoid certain areas and worry that my son will come home from work unscathed.

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