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Recent history - a blip?
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"I'm not sure the last 50 years were an anomalous blip. History is cyclical, periods of crisis and instability can be followed by periods of progress and vice versa. The Renaissance followed the Black Death. The Enlightenment followed the Reformation, Counter-Reformation, French Wars of Religion and other brutal religious conflicts in the early modern period. The expansion of suffrage was in part an outcome of the First World War. The NHS and concept of a welfare state and safety net for all citizens followed the Second World War. These aren't coincidences. I do hope everything doesn't have to absolutely go to shit for us to get back on track. " Well said. Except for the last sentence....I've given up such hope. | |||
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"I think we're hitting a period of instability, and it will be interesting to see how things move from here. Whatever happens, it can't be worse than what happened last time we were in this socioeconomic and geopolitical positions!" It does feel like we're in re-set mode. The last re-set saw us entering an age of rapid change, technological advances and all of that enabling a levelling (in the West, at least), of a sort. | |||
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"I'm not sure the last 50 years were an anomalous blip. History is cyclical, periods of crisis and instability can be followed by periods of progress and vice versa. The Renaissance followed the Black Death. The Enlightenment followed the Reformation, Counter-Reformation, French Wars of Religion and other brutal religious conflicts in the early modern period. The expansion of suffrage was in part an outcome of the First World War. The NHS and concept of a welfare state and safety net for all citizens followed the Second World War. These aren't coincidences. I do hope everything doesn't have to absolutely go to shit for us to get back on track. " I don't disagree... those big leaps happened but took time to take effect and be accepted as the norm. The changes in my lifetime have happened much quicker. All built on the foundations of what went before. | |||
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" I do hope everything doesn't have to absolutely go to shit for us to get back on track. Well said. Except for the last sentence....I've given up such hope." Pandora's box had one item remaining... | |||
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"I'm not sure the last 50 years were an anomalous blip. History is cyclical, periods of crisis and instability can be followed by periods of progress and vice versa. The Renaissance followed the Black Death. The Enlightenment followed the Reformation, Counter-Reformation, French Wars of Religion and other brutal religious conflicts in the early modern period. The expansion of suffrage was in part an outcome of the First World War. The NHS and concept of a welfare state and safety net for all citizens followed the Second World War. These aren't coincidences. I do hope everything doesn't have to absolutely go to shit for us to get back on track. I don't disagree... those big leaps happened but took time to take effect and be accepted as the norm. The changes in my lifetime have happened much quicker. All built on the foundations of what went before. " That's true. Maybe the cycles are speeding up. Even the examples I thought of became closer together chronologically. | |||
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"I'm not sure the last 50 years were an anomalous blip. History is cyclical, periods of crisis and instability can be followed by periods of progress and vice versa. The Renaissance followed the Black Death. The Enlightenment followed the Reformation, Counter-Reformation, French Wars of Religion and other brutal religious conflicts in the early modern period. The expansion of suffrage was in part an outcome of the First World War. The NHS and concept of a welfare state and safety net for all citizens followed the Second World War. These aren't coincidences. I do hope everything doesn't have to absolutely go to shit for us to get back on track. Well said. Except for the last sentence....I've given up such hope." It may be more hope than expectation. | |||
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"I'm not sure the last 50 years were an anomalous blip. History is cyclical, periods of crisis and instability can be followed by periods of progress and vice versa. The Renaissance followed the Black Death. The Enlightenment followed the Reformation, Counter-Reformation, French Wars of Religion and other brutal religious conflicts in the early modern period. The expansion of suffrage was in part an outcome of the First World War. The NHS and concept of a welfare state and safety net for all citizens followed the Second World War. These aren't coincidences. I do hope everything doesn't have to absolutely go to shit for us to get back on track. I don't disagree... those big leaps happened but took time to take effect and be accepted as the norm. The changes in my lifetime have happened much quicker. All built on the foundations of what went before. That's true. Maybe the cycles are speeding up. Even the examples I thought of became closer together chronologically. " We're on the high spin speed cycle.  | |||
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" We're on the high spin speed cycle. "That's why everything is banging around and it sounds a bit like Armageddon. | |||
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" We're on the high spin speed cycle.
That's why everything is banging around and it sounds a bit like Armageddon. "Thank you! The uneven load is exactly what we're experiencing. | |||
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" We're on the high spin speed cycle.
That's why everything is banging around and it sounds a bit like Armageddon.
Thank you! The uneven load is exactly what we're experiencing.
" | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. " It only seems like it's going backwards because the younger generation has the Internet and social media so it does seem that way, information that was always left to closed rooms can now be found online, as they the young ones get older they will come into themselves and settle down mostly then it will start again with the young trying to find there way, but we are making progress spiritual, scientifically and politically | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. It only seems like it's going backwards because the younger generation has the Internet and social media so it does seem that way, information that was always left to closed rooms can now be found online, as they the young ones get older they will come into themselves and settle down mostly then it will start again with the young trying to find there way, but we are making progress spiritual, scientifically and politically " Tell me about the spiritual progress. | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. It only seems like it's going backwards because the younger generation has the Internet and social media so it does seem that way, information that was always left to closed rooms can now be found online, as they the young ones get older they will come into themselves and settle down mostly then it will start again with the young trying to find there way, but we are making progress spiritual, scientifically and politically Tell me about the spiritual progress. " I think spiritual progress is really only something that we can find within ourselves. | |||
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"Hopefully the beginning of huge change. People getting pissed off with cacooned career politicians with no experience of real life, the world making decisions for them. Hopefully the EU will fall on its face sooner now that Trump is Pres. Merkel will be out of office this time next year, that can only be a good thing. Spiritually, I do wonder how things will change. Islam seems to get more followers. Christianity less. I don't heare many of my younger colleagues express any interest in religion or spirituality, only a desire for the latest iPhone or designer frock. Religion and politics eh. "But how do you actually see this huge change looking? What does a post-EU Europe, or a post NATO world actually look like? Part of the reason a lot of people are so scared of what this future might be is that no one has articulated a convincing vision of it. What is Trump actually going to do (not say, DO) that's going to improve America? What is Brexit going to actually do to improve Britain? What will be better about Germany without Merkel that will actually improve things for me? Can that be explained for people, in actual tangible examples not just lofty rhetoric about decent people, taking it back and making it great again? If you look to history to give you an idea of what a world composed of protectionist nation states looks like, it doesn't provide much reassurance. | |||
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"Hopefully the beginning of huge change. People getting pissed off with cacooned career politicians with no experience of real life, the world making decisions for them. Hopefully the EU will fall on its face sooner now that Trump is Pres. Merkel will be out of office this time next year, that can only be a good thing. Spiritually, I do wonder how things will change. Islam seems to get more followers. Christianity less. I don't heare many of my younger colleagues express any interest in religion or spirituality, only a desire for the latest iPhone or designer frock. Religion and politics eh.
But how do you actually see this huge change looking? What does a post-EU Europe, or a post NATO world actually look like? Part of the reason a lot of people are so scared of what this future might be is that no one has articulated a convincing vision of it. What is Trump actually going to do (not say, DO) that's going to improve America? What is Brexit going to actually do to improve Britain? What will be better about Germany without Merkel that will actually improve things for me? Can that be explained for people, in actual tangible examples not just lofty rhetoric about decent people, taking it back and making it great again?
If you look to history to give you an idea of what a world composed of protectionist nation states looks like, it doesn't provide much reassurance. "Exactly this! | |||
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"I think we're hitting a period of instability, and it will be interesting to see how things move from here. Whatever happens, it can't be worse than what happened last time we were in this socioeconomic and geopolitical positions!" Last time there was only one nuclear power with only two bombs, now there are multiple nuclear powers with enough firepower to wipe out the entire world multiple times over. | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. It only seems like it's going backwards because the younger generation has the Internet and social media so it does seem that way, information that was always left to closed rooms can now be found online, as they the young ones get older they will come into themselves and settle down mostly then it will start again with the young trying to find there way, but we are making progress spiritual, scientifically and politically " I don't think its the young ones, you must admit its getting harder and harder to argue that the world isn't run by old white men. | |||
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"Hopefully the beginning of huge change. People getting pissed off with cacooned career politicians with no experience of real life, the world making decisions for them. Hopefully the EU will fall on its face sooner now that Trump is Pres. Merkel will be out of office this time next year, that can only be a good thing. Spiritually, I do wonder how things will change. Islam seems to get more followers. Christianity less. I don't heare many of my younger colleagues express any interest in religion or spirituality, only a desire for the latest iPhone or designer frock. Religion and politics eh.
But how do you actually see this huge change looking? What does a post-EU Europe, or a post NATO world actually look like? Part of the reason a lot of people are so scared of what this future might be is that no one has articulated a convincing vision of it. What is Trump actually going to do (not say, DO) that's going to improve America? What is Brexit going to actually do to improve Britain? What will be better about Germany without Merkel that will actually improve things for me? Can that be explained for people, in actual tangible examples not just lofty rhetoric about decent people, taking it back and making it great again?
If you look to history to give you an idea of what a world composed of protectionist nation states looks like, it doesn't provide much reassurance. "Protectionist nations may not work, but then non balanced Unions don't either, which is why I think the EU is doomed. I look forward to what May's vision of an independent Britain looks like. Without the restraints of the EU, I feel confident we will do good. America seems to be a broken country. 8 years of Obama's impotent presidency, following 8 years of Bush's lunacy seems to have made a mess of it. I hope NATO does continue. But member countries need to play by the rules and pay the correct dues for membership. You can see Trump's point when it's just the UK and USA that pay the correct amount. It'll be interesting to see what will happen to the French and German economies when they have to start stumping up the correct amount on defence budgets. We have all been cosseted and controlled for so long, it's no wonder people are scared of change. Embrace it, the world is full of opportunity. | |||
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"Hopefully the beginning of huge change. People getting pissed off with cacooned career politicians with no experience of real life, the world making decisions for them. Hopefully the EU will fall on its face sooner now that Trump is Pres. Merkel will be out of office this time next year, that can only be a good thing. Spiritually, I do wonder how things will change. Islam seems to get more followers. Christianity less. I don't heare many of my younger colleagues express any interest in religion or spirituality, only a desire for the latest iPhone or designer frock. Religion and politics eh.
But how do you actually see this huge change looking? What does a post-EU Europe, or a post NATO world actually look like? Part of the reason a lot of people are so scared of what this future might be is that no one has articulated a convincing vision of it. What is Trump actually going to do (not say, DO) that's going to improve America? What is Brexit going to actually do to improve Britain? What will be better about Germany without Merkel that will actually improve things for me? Can that be explained for people, in actual tangible examples not just lofty rhetoric about decent people, taking it back and making it great again?
If you look to history to give you an idea of what a world composed of protectionist nation states looks like, it doesn't provide much reassurance.
Protectionist nations may not work, but then non balanced Unions don't either, which is why I think the EU is doomed.
I look forward to what May's vision of an independent Britain looks like. Without the restraints of the EU, I feel confident we will do good.
America seems to be a broken country. 8 years of Obama's impotent presidency, following 8 years of Bush's lunacy seems to have made a mess of it.
I hope NATO does continue. But member countries need to play by the rules and pay the correct dues for membership. You can see Trump's point when it's just the UK and USA that pay the correct amount. It'll be interesting to see what will happen to the French and German economies when they have to start stumping up the correct amount on defence budgets.
We have all been cosseted and controlled for so long, it's no wonder people are scared of change.
Embrace it, the world is full of opportunity. "Embrace what though? Change for the sake of change? Change is good, when I can see it's moving towards something better. This is more like being kicked out of your house, and you might end up in a mansion or you might end up in a hovel, and there is little you can do to influence which of those options it is. I don't personally feel like I have been cosseted or controlled. Liberal democracy as part of a greater political union has served me well. I'll probably do just fine under whatever alternative emerges, because I'm an educated middle class professional. I do worry what might come down the line once disappointment sets in among those who have voted as they did through anger and resentment. I'm not saying that's all of them, but it's a fairly decent proportion. NATO is fucked because Trump has already stated that he would go against one of its main aims. If he's true to his word (and his claims to be so were a large part of his appeal) it's rendered almost pointless. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. " What does that even mean? | |||
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"The surprising thing that is coming to light is how some things haven't changed at all. We are not as progressive as many thought we were." That's the thing that's perturbed me the most. Speaking on a selfish level as a woman it feels like I'm becoming part of a minority group again rather than slowly coming out of society perceiving us as one. I am not OK with that, and when I apply that feeling across other groups it makes me sad. | |||
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"The surprising thing that is coming to light is how some things haven't changed at all. We are not as progressive as many thought we were. That's the thing that's perturbed me the most. Speaking on a selfish level as a woman it feels like I'm becoming part of a minority group again rather than slowly coming out of society perceiving us as one. I am not OK with that, and when I apply that feeling across other groups it makes me sad." I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. | |||
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"The surprising thing that is coming to light is how some things haven't changed at all. We are not as progressive as many thought we were. That's the thing that's perturbed me the most. Speaking on a selfish level as a woman it feels like I'm becoming part of a minority group again rather than slowly coming out of society perceiving us as one. I am not OK with that, and when I apply that feeling across other groups it makes me sad. I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with." At least if people previously felt they ought to suppress sexist, misogynistic language and behaviour (which are the ones I have direct experience of; I'm sure there are other equally valid experiences) it presupposed that at some level there was a realisation that it was unacceptable, regardless of how they may have seethed about it internally. It also meant there was less chance of people (not just the young) modelling or learning such behaviours. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with." I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? | |||
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"The surprising thing that is coming to light is how some things haven't changed at all. We are not as progressive as many thought we were. That's the thing that's perturbed me the most. Speaking on a selfish level as a woman it feels like I'm becoming part of a minority group again rather than slowly coming out of society perceiving us as one. I am not OK with that, and when I apply that feeling across other groups it makes me sad. I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. At least if people previously felt they ought to suppress sexist, misogynistic language and behaviour (which are the ones I have direct experience of; I'm sure there are other equally valid experiences) it presupposed that at some level there was a realisation that it was unacceptable, regardless of how they may have seethed about it internally. It also meant there was less chance of people (not just the young) modelling or learning such behaviours." That last bit is the thing that's always promised a better future - and I think it's still the case that young people are far more tolerant. But we live in an aging society so for now perhaps it's the angry old people that are dominant. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean?" It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. " This is either: 1. Utter shit 2. The beliefs of somebody with a terrible education 3. Just very depressing 4. All of the above | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. This is either: 1. Utter shit 2. The beliefs of somebody with a terrible education 3. Just very depressing 4. All of the above" That's not a very good counter to a well constructed point of view. | |||
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"The surprising thing that is coming to light is how some things haven't changed at all. We are not as progressive as many thought we were. That's the thing that's perturbed me the most. Speaking on a selfish level as a woman it feels like I'm becoming part of a minority group again rather than slowly coming out of society perceiving us as one. I am not OK with that, and when I apply that feeling across other groups it makes me sad. I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. At least if people previously felt they ought to suppress sexist, misogynistic language and behaviour (which are the ones I have direct experience of; I'm sure there are other equally valid experiences) it presupposed that at some level there was a realisation that it was unacceptable, regardless of how they may have seethed about it internally. It also meant there was less chance of people (not just the young) modelling or learning such behaviours. That last bit is the thing that's always promised a better future - and I think it's still the case that young people are far more tolerant. But we live in an aging society so for now perhaps it's the angry old people that are dominant." I'm not sure, I thought this until quite recently but there's an extremely angry subsection of the young that seems to be insurgent. Particularly young men. Angry, frustrated, frothing at the mouth at the fact they feel their masculinity is being undermined by liberalism or women or the education system or whatever. And when challenged it often boils down to them not being able to have sex with the women they feel entitled to have sex with. Elliott Rodgers is the most famous example at the extreme end of it, but there's a number on here that I'd put in the same box and the boards of Reddit and similar sites are absolutely crawling with them, describing themselves as incels and red pillers. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. This is either: 1. Utter shit 2. The beliefs of somebody with a terrible education 3. Just very depressing 4. All of the above That's not a very good counter to a well constructed point of view. " It's an honest summary to a piece of ignorant shite. If it were remotely true we wouldn't be here now. The modern age is built up on great civilisations, not some giant caveman who ruled them all. Plenty have been exploited for sure, but there has to have been a driving belief in common goals. | |||
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"I'm not sure, I thought this until quite recently but there's an extremely angry subsection of the young that seems to be insurgent. Particularly young men. Angry, frustrated, frothing at the mouth at the fact they feel their masculinity is being undermined by liberalism or women or the education system or whatever. And when challenged it often boils down to them not being able to have sex with the women they feel entitled to have sex with. Elliott Rodgers is the most famous example at the extreme end of it, but there's a number on here that I'd put in the same box and the boards of Reddit and similar sites are absolutely crawling with them, describing themselves as incels and red pillers. " Yes but they're a minority of scum and are a part of every generation. It's the shift in the majority view which is more of a concern and that's more subtle. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. This is either: 1. Utter shit 2. The beliefs of somebody with a terrible education 3. Just very depressing 4. All of the above That's not a very good counter to a well constructed point of view. It's an honest summary to a piece of ignorant shite. If it were remotely true we wouldn't be here now. The modern age is built up on great civilisations, not some giant caveman who ruled them all. Plenty have been exploited for sure, but there has to have been a driving belief in common goals." Find me one example of any successful empire, recent or ancient, where 'equality' has existed and there hasn't been a hierarchy. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. " Sounds like a definition of PC to me, not sure everyone is ready to understand this yet. Some may even be offended. Good luck with it! | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. This is either: 1. Utter shit 2. The beliefs of somebody with a terrible education 3. Just very depressing 4. All of the above That's not a very good counter to a well constructed point of view. It's an honest summary to a piece of ignorant shite. If it were remotely true we wouldn't be here now. The modern age is built up on great civilisations, not some giant caveman who ruled them all. Plenty have been exploited for sure, but there has to have been a driving belief in common goals. Find me one example of any successful empire, recent or ancient, where 'equality' has existed and there hasn't been a hierarchy. " Hmmmm, your use of the word "empire" is not relevant in this "last 50 years" thread. Society maybe a better term. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. This is either: 1. Utter shit 2. The beliefs of somebody with a terrible education 3. Just very depressing 4. All of the above That's not a very good counter to a well constructed point of view. It's an honest summary to a piece of ignorant shite. If it were remotely true we wouldn't be here now. The modern age is built up on great civilisations, not some giant caveman who ruled them all. Plenty have been exploited for sure, but there has to have been a driving belief in common goals. Find me one example of any successful empire, recent or ancient, where 'equality' has existed and there hasn't been a hierarchy. " The issue is the motivation to strive for it, not whether it has been achieved. Today's society is the most educated there has even been. If that educated society believed in the view you advocate it would collapse - very quickly. | |||
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"I'm not sure, I thought this until quite recently but there's an extremely angry subsection of the young that seems to be insurgent. Particularly young men. Angry, frustrated, frothing at the mouth at the fact they feel their masculinity is being undermined by liberalism or women or the education system or whatever. And when challenged it often boils down to them not being able to have sex with the women they feel entitled to have sex with. Elliott Rodgers is the most famous example at the extreme end of it, but there's a number on here that I'd put in the same box and the boards of Reddit and similar sites are absolutely crawling with them, describing themselves as incels and red pillers. Yes but they're a minority of scum and are a part of every generation. It's the shift in the majority view which is more of a concern and that's more subtle." Yeah I hope so. But at the moment they seem to be on the "winning" side and that depresses me. | |||
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"I'm not sure, I thought this until quite recently but there's an extremely angry subsection of the young that seems to be insurgent. Particularly young men. Angry, frustrated, frothing at the mouth at the fact they feel their masculinity is being undermined by liberalism or women or the education system or whatever. And when challenged it often boils down to them not being able to have sex with the women they feel entitled to have sex with. Elliott Rodgers is the most famous example at the extreme end of it, but there's a number on here that I'd put in the same box and the boards of Reddit and similar sites are absolutely crawling with them, describing themselves as incels and red pillers. Yes but they're a minority of scum and are a part of every generation. It's the shift in the majority view which is more of a concern and that's more subtle. Yeah I hope so. But at the moment they seem to be on the "winning" side and that depresses me." and that's the bit that's most concerning | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. Sounds like a definition of PC to me, not sure everyone is ready to understand this yet. Some may even be offended. Good luck with it!" Yeah, one already has taken offense. I'm sure they'll get over it... If thinking that we are all born with an identical amount of intelligence/ability/potential makes life seem a bit nicer to someone, then I don't want to spoil it. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. Sounds like a definition of PC to me, not sure everyone is ready to understand this yet. Some may even be offended. Good luck with it! Yeah, one already has taken offense. I'm sure they'll get over it... If thinking that we are all born with an identical amount of intelligence/ability/potential makes life seem a bit nicer to someone, then I don't want to spoil it. " Equality is nothing to do with being born equal! 
Not just yet at least but that's a different topic entirely. | |||
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"The surprising thing that is coming to light is how some things haven't changed at all. We are not as progressive as many thought we were. That's the thing that's perturbed me the most. Speaking on a selfish level as a woman it feels like I'm becoming part of a minority group again rather than slowly coming out of society perceiving us as one. I am not OK with that, and when I apply that feeling across other groups it makes me sad. I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. At least if people previously felt they ought to suppress sexist, misogynistic language and behaviour (which are the ones I have direct experience of; I'm sure there are other equally valid experiences) it presupposed that at some level there was a realisation that it was unacceptable, regardless of how they may have seethed about it internally. It also meant there was less chance of people (not just the young) modelling or learning such behaviours." Absolutely L. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. Sounds like a definition of PC to me, not sure everyone is ready to understand this yet. Some may even be offended. Good luck with it! Yeah, one already has taken offense. I'm sure they'll get over it... If thinking that we are all born with an identical amount of intelligence/ability/potential makes life seem a bit nicer to someone, then I don't want to spoil it. " Is that what you think people mean by equality? | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. This is either: 1. Utter shit 2. The beliefs of somebody with a terrible education 3. Just very depressing 4. All of the above" All of the above.  | |||
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"I think, on the whole, despite some exciting 'ups', we are on a gradual but increasingly tight and therefore faster, downward spiral. It's atrophy - the natural order of things. " I dunno. The people who get to Mars might turn out alright... | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. This is either: 1. Utter shit 2. The beliefs of somebody with a terrible education 3. Just very depressing 4. All of the above That's not a very good counter to a well constructed point of view. " True. But my soul shouted the same as first response! Such a sad view point that I had to go no!!! So I can understand the reflex response fully. | |||
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" True. But my soul shouted the same as first response! Such a sad view point that I had to go no!!! So I can understand the reflex response fully. "This is why some said women's suffrage was a bad idea, you act on emotion and impulse, as opposed to logic and reason.  | |||
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" True. But my soul shouted the same as first response! Such a sad view point that I had to go no!!! So I can understand the reflex response fully.
This is why some said women's suffrage was a bad idea, you act on emotion and impulse, as opposed to logic and reason. "Shit, I'm not a real woman again. | |||
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" True. But my soul shouted the same as first response! Such a sad view point that I had to go no!!! So I can understand the reflex response fully.
This is why some said women's suffrage was a bad idea, you act on emotion and impulse, as opposed to logic and reason. "This is the kind of sexist and misogynistic nonsense that I thought we had got away from. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. Sounds like a definition of PC to me, not sure everyone is ready to understand this yet. Some may even be offended. Good luck with it! Yeah, one already has taken offense. I'm sure they'll get over it... If thinking that we are all born with an identical amount of intelligence/ability/potential makes life seem a bit nicer to someone, then I don't want to spoil it. " Please can you explain to me (I'm genuinely open to trying to hear your point on this, my initial reaction was gut but I'm going to try and comprehend your viewpoint however jarring I find it) -- so, please can you explain to me what your understanding of equality is? | |||
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" True. But my soul shouted the same as first response! Such a sad view point that I had to go no!!! So I can understand the reflex response fully.
This is why some said women's suffrage was a bad idea, you act on emotion and impulse, as opposed to logic and reason. "Do you genuinely believe that? | |||
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" True. But my soul shouted the same as first response! Such a sad view point that I had to go no!!! So I can understand the reflex response fully.
This is why some said women's suffrage was a bad idea, you act on emotion and impulse, as opposed to logic and reason.
Shit, I'm not a real woman again."Lol!! | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it?" Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. " I get what you mean - we were kidded into thinking views had moved on when actually they'd been largely covered up. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. " Okay, how do we do that in this climate of "legitimised" lack of tolerance from elected leaders? Does political correctness extend to laws of equality or are these still acceptable? | |||
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"What I'd be very interested to learn is where he believes he is with regard to the societal ladder. My guess is that he's not quite on the rung he would like to think he is." *Throws a tantrum, aggressively defends "equality" * *Tries to insult someone by suggesting they're of a low social status* Libtard #101  | |||
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"What I'd be very interested to learn is where he believes he is with regard to the societal ladder. My guess is that he's not quite on the rung he would like to think he is. *Throws a tantrum, aggressively depends "equality" * *Tries to insult someone by suggesting they're of a low social status* Libtard #101 "No I'm not angry. You're definitely not high enough on the ladder for that
I'm curious as to where you think you are on your spectrum of equality? | |||
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"What I'd be very interested to learn is where he believes he is with regard to the societal ladder. My guess is that he's not quite on the rung he would like to think he is. *Throws a tantrum, aggressively depends "equality" * *Tries to insult someone by suggesting they're of a low social status* Libtard #101
No I'm not angry. You're definitely not high enough on the ladder for that
I'm curious as to where you think you are on your spectrum of equality?"Are not aware of how thick you are coming across in screaming about "equality" and then insulting someone's social standing? It's not very "pro-equality" of you, old chum. | |||
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"What I'd be very interested to learn is where he believes he is with regard to the societal ladder. My guess is that he's not quite on the rung he would like to think he is. *Throws a tantrum, aggressively depends "equality" * *Tries to insult someone by suggesting they're of a low social status* Libtard #101
No I'm not angry. You're definitely not high enough on the ladder for that
I'm curious as to where you think you are on your spectrum of equality?
Are not aware of how thick you are coming across in screaming about "equality" and then insulting someone's social standing?
It's not very "pro-equality" of you, old chum. "That's answer enough
Thanks & good luck with the climb... | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. It only seems like it's going backwards because the younger generation has the Internet and social media so it does seem that way, information that was always left to closed rooms can now be found online, as they the young ones get older they will come into themselves and settle down mostly then it will start again with the young trying to find there way, but we are making progress spiritual, scientifically and politically Tell me about the spiritual progress. " When I say spiritual I'm not talking about the main three religions I'm wasn't really referring to religion. I was referring to the mind and how we can use it to change our lives. Now I know there is more to this life than what's we see, on a small scale on an infinite scale how ever you put it there is something there. Now those who think that or believe in chakra and infinite dimensions and astral projections etc where and still are looked down upon but the growth I speak of is the reach that it has attained and the outlook where you can practice what you feel like in some places ie western civilisation and not be looked down on for the most part. Now Christianity as a whole has gone through its dark ages, Judaism has also and this is just my opninon but Islam is going through its own period when they come out the other side of the tunnel then it will settle, when someone can offend there religion they as a majority can abstain from violence then we will see progress, I remember a time when Christianity couldn't take that. | |||
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"What I'd be very interested to learn is where he believes he is with regard to the societal ladder. My guess is that he's not quite on the rung he would like to think he is. *Throws a tantrum, aggressively depends "equality" * *Tries to insult someone by suggesting they're of a low social status* Libtard #101
No I'm not angry. You're definitely not high enough on the ladder for that
I'm curious as to where you think you are on your spectrum of equality?
Are not aware of how thick you are coming across in screaming about "equality" and then insulting someone's social standing?
It's not very "pro-equality" of you, old chum. "Where are you getting this idea that people are angry, screaming and offended? | |||
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"What I'd be very interested to learn is where he believes he is with regard to the societal ladder. My guess is that he's not quite on the rung he would like to think he is. *Throws a tantrum, aggressively depends "equality" * *Tries to insult someone by suggesting they're of a low social status* Libtard #101
No I'm not angry. You're definitely not high enough on the ladder for that
I'm curious as to where you think you are on your spectrum of equality?
Are not aware of how thick you are coming across in screaming about "equality" and then insulting someone's social standing?
It's not very "pro-equality" of you, old chum. "Are you aware you've refused to answer a few people who asked you to explain your understanding of equality? All a bit more interested in stirring than actually discussing, young not my chum? | |||
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" Thanks & good luck with the climb..." Thanks. Hopefully one day, I'll climb high enough to move out of zone 1 London and in that well known money-spot, the West Midlands.
You responded to someone disagreeing with the notion of equality with a bunch of foul mouthed ad hominem insults... But you're not angry. I believe you. You just start swearing at people and insulting them when you don't agree with them by habit, right?
Have a good one, champ. | |||
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" Thanks & good luck with the climb... Thanks. Hopefully one day, I'll climb high enough to move out of zone 1 London and in that well known money-spot, the West Midlands.
You responded to someone disagreeing with the notion of equality with a bunch of foul mouthed ad hominem insults... But you're not angry. I believe you. You just start swearing at people and insulting them when you don't agree with them by habit, right?
Have a good one, champ. "Why are you doing exactly what you're accusing another of? | |||
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" Thanks & good luck with the climb... Thanks. Hopefully one day, I'll climb high enough to move out of zone 1 London and in that well known money-spot, the West Midlands.
You responded to someone disagreeing with the notion of equality with a bunch of foul mouthed ad hominem insults... But you're not angry. I believe you. You just start swearing at people and insulting them when you don't agree with them by habit, right?
Have a good one, champ. "MEGALOLZ | |||
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"I've not read the thread so far, just the opening post. Personally I think there have always been issues of one kind or another and we are living though a current set of them. And there will be new issues for future generations. Plus we and future generations will live through some issues generations before us have. I don't think the world is more violent, corrupt, divided etc. than before. I just think we know so much more about what is going on around us and in the world." their issues will be like robots and stuff | |||
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" Thanks & good luck with the climb... Thanks. Hopefully one day, I'll climb high enough to move out of zone 1 London and in that well known money-spot, the West Midlands.
You responded to someone disagreeing with the notion of equality with a bunch of foul mouthed ad hominem insults... But you're not angry. I believe you. You just start swearing at people and insulting them when you don't agree with them by habit, right?
Have a good one, champ. "What I like about discussions on a forum is that the actual discussion is always in writing above. In that you presented an ignorant view and were challenged on it. You've so far failed to back it up despite many showing an interest. My interest in how you view your social status is because I find many with views like yours are surprisingly deluded as to where they are. The comments you're making, for example about the lack of wealth in the West Midlands gives me confidence that I'm correct in that assumption about you. | |||
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" Thanks & good luck with the climb... Thanks. Hopefully one day, I'll climb high enough to move out of zone 1 London and in that well known money-spot, the West Midlands.
You responded to someone disagreeing with the notion of equality with a bunch of foul mouthed ad hominem insults... But you're not angry. I believe you. You just start swearing at people and insulting them when you don't agree with them by habit, right?
Have a good one, champ.
What I like about discussions on a forum is that the actual discussion is always in writing above.
In that you presented an ignorant view and were challenged on it.
You've so far failed to back it up despite many showing an interest.
My interest in how you view your social status is because I find many with views like yours are surprisingly deluded as to where they are. The comments you're making, for example about the lack of wealth in the West Midlands gives me confidence that I'm correct in that assumption about you."Yup. Still hoping he might answer my two questions -- one on equality and one on whether his view on women was genuine or a joke -- still waiting. | |||
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" Thanks & good luck with the climb... Thanks. Hopefully one day, I'll climb high enough to move out of zone 1 London and in that well known money-spot, the West Midlands.
You responded to someone disagreeing with the notion of equality with a bunch of foul mouthed ad hominem insults... But you're not angry. I believe you. You just start swearing at people and insulting them when you don't agree with them by habit, right?
Have a good one, champ.
What I like about discussions on a forum is that the actual discussion is always in writing above.
In that you presented an ignorant view and were challenged on it.
You've so far failed to back it up despite many showing an interest.
My interest in how you view your social status is because I find many with views like yours are surprisingly deluded as to where they are. The comments you're making, for example about the lack of wealth in the West Midlands gives me confidence that I'm correct in that assumption about you.
Yup. Still hoping he might answer my two questions -- one on equality and one on whether his view on women was genuine or a joke -- still waiting. "[if I was to follow his lead I'd insert a horrible stupid joke about men's inability to multitask here....but I won't] | |||
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" This is the problem. The Right have some well constructed arguments which are, in the main, abhorrent. The left react angrily, but can't construct a plausible argument against them without resorting to insults. Thus losing credibility. Making the Right at least sound intelligent. Which they're not. " Pretty much.  | |||
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" This is the problem. The Right have some well constructed arguments which are, in the main, abhorrent. The left react angrily, but can't construct a plausible argument against them without resorting to insults. Thus losing credibility. Making the Right at least sound intelligent. Which they're not. " I think MEGALOLZ is a pretty constructive comment... | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. " Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.  | |||
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" This is the problem. The Right have some well constructed arguments which are, in the main, abhorrent. The left react angrily, but can't construct a plausible argument against them without resorting to insults. Thus losing credibility. Making the Right at least sound intelligent. Which they're not. Pretty much. "I think Left/Right is no longer the real division. It's now educated/uneducated, urban/rural, young/old and a multitude of other divisions. On issues like Brexit and Trump, views don't neatly fall to one side or the other of the political spectrum. I keep getting called a left winger at the moment which is laughable. | |||
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" This is the problem. The Right have some well constructed arguments which are, in the main, abhorrent. The left react angrily, but can't construct a plausible argument against them without resorting to insults. Thus losing credibility. Making the Right at least sound intelligent. Which they're not. " I'm more sad than angry. Hence why I try to apply logic and empathy. When I find an argument abhorrent I may feel absolute disgust but that doesn't mean I can't attempt to put myself in the place of someone thinking that to try and understand why. Especially when it is based on entirely specious reasoning. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone. "Who are this brigade, and do they have a uniform? | |||
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"Their issues will be like robots and stuff " | |||
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" This is the problem. The Right have some well constructed arguments which are, in the main, abhorrent. The left react angrily, but can't construct a plausible argument against them without resorting to insults. Thus losing credibility. Making the Right at least sound intelligent. Which they're not. Pretty much.
I think Left/Right is no longer the real division. It's now educated/uneducated, urban/rural, young/old and a multitude of other divisions. On issues like Brexit and Trump, views don't neatly fall to one side or the other of the political spectrum. I keep getting called a left winger at the moment which is laughable. "No, I think it's still left and right, I just think that binary just has different meanings now. For example, they always had different meanings in the US vs Europe, but they were still applied. So left and right, in my opinion, are still valid lables, they just signal different issues than they used to. | |||
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" This is the problem. The Right have some well constructed arguments which are, in the main, abhorrent. The left react angrily, but can't construct a plausible argument against them without resorting to insults. Thus losing credibility. Making the Right at least sound intelligent. Which they're not. I'm more sad than angry. Hence why I try to apply logic and empathy. When I find an argument abhorrent I may feel absolute disgust but that doesn't mean I can't attempt to put myself in the place of someone thinking that to try and understand why. Especially when it is based on entirely specious reasoning." I'm drinking wine. I've used up all my attention and ability to write stuff. Enjoy! X | |||
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" This is the problem. The Right have some well constructed arguments which are, in the main, abhorrent. The left react angrily, but can't construct a plausible argument against them without resorting to insults. Thus losing credibility. Making the Right at least sound intelligent. Which they're not. I'm more sad than angry. Hence why I try to apply logic and empathy. When I find an argument abhorrent I may feel absolute disgust but that doesn't mean I can't attempt to put myself in the place of someone thinking that to try and understand why. Especially when it is based on entirely specious reasoning." This summarises how I feel too. I ask questions to try and understand viewpoints that jar with my own, and await an answer. But when one does not come it's difficult to know how to respond as I'd genuinely like to hear back. I can see your point Clem, perhaps you may be able to construct a response that unpicks the position put forward if you disagree? | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. Sounds like a definition of PC to me, not sure everyone is ready to understand this yet. Some may even be offended. Good luck with it! Yeah, one already has taken offense. I'm sure they'll get over it... If thinking that we are all born with an identical amount of intelligence/ability/potential makes life seem a bit nicer to someone, then I don't want to spoil it. " I believe that we should all celebrate our differences, we are not all the same, and some people's ideas of equality are flawed. But that doesn't mean that everyone should not have the same rights. Or that the unfortunate shouldn't get the help they need. The dumbing down of the masses does depress me, however subtle. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone. "I like the way you think, very good. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone. "I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness". To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself. So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now? | |||
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" This is the problem. The Right have some well constructed arguments which are, in the main, abhorrent. The left react angrily, but can't construct a plausible argument against them without resorting to insults. Thus losing credibility. Making the Right at least sound intelligent. Which they're not. " The problem is that people see things as left/right even when there are sensible parts to both but that gets in the way of a good argument. The plausible arguments were made very early on. Plausible by measure of us being where we are today on the basis of believing in an increasingly better (more equal) future. | |||
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" The plausible arguments were made very early on. Plausible by measure of us being where we are today on the basis of believing in an increasingly better (more equal) future." That sounds really nice. What a shame its completely untrue and you will be unable to cite a single shred of evidence that "where we are today" has come about through the world having a common goal. In fact, the complete opposite is true, civilization has advanced mainly through rivalry, war and demographic replacements. Renaissance Italy, which arguably produced the greatest art and architecture the world has ever seen, did so when Italy was a sprawling mass of tiny kingdoms, all at war with each other. Ancient Greece (the inventors of democracy) were at perpetual war with the Persians, both empires trying to out-do the other. The wealthy Arab states are now building outrageous luxury, the tallest buildings in the world, etc, because they are trying to out-do the West. This whole notion of progress being a product of different sects "coming together" is total nonsense and I can't begin to imagine where you have read it. Cite me a credible link, I beg you. Any evidence to support your argument will be appreciated... See if you can go without swearing and insults as well, old bean. | |||
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Get to bed. | |||
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"I give you several examples of the claim you make being proved totally wrong, cited from well known historical facts... Your response - "the evidence is that you are here"
Get to bed. "When I'm sober I'll read this all again but, for now, your posts read a tad passive aggressive and that's bringing down my happy mode. Thanks to you all for adding to the thread. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. " No, it is not about dumbing down the successful at all. Equality from a sociologists point of view, in this sense, is for everyone to be given equal chances to become successful, not dumbing down anyone. It would be pretty impossible to dumb down people, but the majority of those that are of a higher status tend to be those that inherited it, rather than worked their way up to it. which is why it isn't seen as equality as not everyone had that choice, but it will be seen as the "difference principle". | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.
I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness".
To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself.
So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now? "Positive discrimination,is a made up pc thing. All discrimination is negative. the pc brigade dont need a uniform to be identified,you usually hear them,before you see them. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.
I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness".
To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself.
So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now? "You may have misunderstood me. I am all for equality, and people on here that have met me will vouch for me that I dont have a racist or sexist bone in my body. I think that all this PC nonsense has driven sexism, racism etc to be uttered behind closed doors. PC has not addressed the problems, not discussing it has just meant it's festering. I believe it's the PC Brigade that got the Brexit vote through. People could not talk about genuine concerns about immigration without being branded a racist. These people who did not have a voice suddenly had one at the ballot box. A clear 'fuck you' vote to the current wave of professional politicians and the PC Brigade that are so desperate to suppress anything they don't know how to deal with. I was interested in one banner in particular at a Trump rally. "The Silent Majority for Trump". I can see this Silent Majority voting across Europe in the next year. Big elections about to happen in Italy, Austria, Germany and France. Although I am a Tory, the idea of far right politics scares the bejesus out of me. I can see them getting a foothold in some of these countries. If they do, the hand wringing Liberals, professional politicians and PC Brigade only have themselves to blame. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.
I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness".
To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself.
So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now?
You may have misunderstood me. I am all for equality, and people on here that have met me will vouch for me that I dont have a racist or sexist bone in my body.
I think that all this PC nonsense has driven sexism, racism etc to be uttered behind closed doors. PC has not addressed the problems, not discussing it has just meant it's festering.
I believe it's the PC Brigade that got the Brexit vote through. People could not talk about genuine concerns about immigration without being branded a racist. These people who did not have a voice suddenly had one at the ballot box. A clear 'fuck you' vote to the current wave of professional politicians and the PC Brigade that are so desperate to suppress anything they don't know how to deal with.
I was interested in one banner in particular at a Trump rally. "The Silent Majority for Trump". I can see this Silent Majority voting across Europe in the next year. Big elections about to happen in Italy, Austria, Germany and France.
Although I am a Tory, the idea of far right politics scares the bejesus out of me. I can see them getting a foothold in some of these countries. If they do, the hand wringing Liberals, professional politicians and PC Brigade only have themselves to blame." | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.
I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness".
To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself.
So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now?
You may have misunderstood me. I am all for equality, and people on here that have met me will vouch for me that I dont have a racist or sexist bone in my body.
I think that all this PC nonsense has driven sexism, racism etc to be uttered behind closed doors. PC has not addressed the problems, not discussing it has just meant it's festering.
I believe it's the PC Brigade that got the Brexit vote through. People could not talk about genuine concerns about immigration without being branded a racist. These people who did not have a voice suddenly had one at the ballot box. A clear 'fuck you' vote to the current wave of professional politicians and the PC Brigade that are so desperate to suppress anything they don't know how to deal with.
I was interested in one banner in particular at a Trump rally. "The Silent Majority for Trump". I can see this Silent Majority voting across Europe in the next year. Big elections about to happen in Italy, Austria, Germany and France.
Although I am a Tory, the idea of far right politics scares the bejesus out of me. I can see them getting a foothold in some of these countries. If they do, the hand wringing Liberals, professional politicians and PC Brigade only have themselves to blame."So you don't blame the right wing politicians like the UK tories fir assiduously courting the far right vote in the first place? This to me sounds like you've realised which particular genie your former PM let out of the bottle in his fear of losing ground to the far right vote, and now you seek to cast blame elsewhere. Your tories are as much to blame for the enabling of the far right in this country as any other group, and currently it is your tory govt fighting a desperate rearguard action in court to deny Parliamentary democracy. You make some valid points but then invalidate those points by denying that the mainstream right has had any involvement in creating today's proto fascists - and they are fascists. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.
I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness".
To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself.
So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now?
You may have misunderstood me. I am all for equality, and people on here that have met me will vouch for me that I dont have a racist or sexist bone in my body.
I think that all this PC nonsense has driven sexism, racism etc to be uttered behind closed doors. PC has not addressed the problems, not discussing it has just meant it's festering.
I believe it's the PC Brigade that got the Brexit vote through. People could not talk about genuine concerns about immigration without being branded a racist. These people who did not have a voice suddenly had one at the ballot box. A clear 'fuck you' vote to the current wave of professional politicians and the PC Brigade that are so desperate to suppress anything they don't know how to deal with.
I was interested in one banner in particular at a Trump rally. "The Silent Majority for Trump". I can see this Silent Majority voting across Europe in the next year. Big elections about to happen in Italy, Austria, Germany and France.
Although I am a Tory, the idea of far right politics scares the bejesus out of me. I can see them getting a foothold in some of these countries. If they do, the hand wringing Liberals, professional politicians and PC Brigade only have themselves to blame.
So you don't blame the right wing politicians like the UK tories fir assiduously courting the far right vote in the first place?
This to me sounds like you've realised which particular genie your former PM let out of the bottle in his fear of losing ground to the far right vote, and now you seek to cast blame elsewhere.
Your tories are as much to blame for the enabling of the far right in this country as any other group, and currently it is your tory govt fighting a desperate rearguard action in court to deny Parliamentary democracy.
You make some valid points but then invalidate those points by denying that the mainstream right has had any involvement in creating today's proto fascists - and they are fascists."I dont believe what is happening in the UK is a Left/Right thing. I think its about people feeling they have lost their voice, as politicians from the Left/Right were not listening. Remember the lady asking Gordon Brown about immigration and he called her a 'bigoted woman'. The politicians are listening now. The genie has left the bottle, Cameron opened it, but the problem is much older than that. As for democracy. A vote was done. The vote was for for Brexit. If the vote had gone their way, I am sure Remainers would not have complained about the validity of the referendum. As far as I'm concerned, if there was a concern about the validity, both sides should have flagged it before the referendum. Sour grapes and dummy spitting now comes to mind. | |||
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"2016 is like an alternate reality. Some good. Some bad. "In years to come, when doing a pub quiz, most of the answers will be 2016 | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. " 50 years.... around the same age as the welfare state. Maybe we've come to the point where the working class has had enough of watching the rich get richer, whilst paying through the nose so that those who don't fancy working for a living are provided for. Along with those who don't fancy staying in their own countries where such a welfare system doesn't exist. | |||
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"2016 is like an alternate reality. Some good. Some bad. "I might go back and do another history degree when I'm retired, because some of this will be fascinating with the benefit of 40 years hindsight. | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. 50 years.... around the same age as the welfare state. Maybe we've come to the point where the working class has had enough of watching the rich get richer, whilst paying through the nose so that those who don't fancy working for a living are provided for. Along with those who don't fancy staying in their own countries where such a welfare system doesn't exist. " Marx and Revolution- all the poor have to lose are their chains. | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. 50 years.... around the same age as the welfare state. Maybe we've come to the point where the working class has had enough of watching the rich get richer, whilst paying through the nose so that those who don't fancy working for a living are provided for. Along with those who don't fancy staying in their own countries where such a welfare system doesn't exist. Marx and Revolution- all the poor have to lose are their chains." Exactly, while the wealthy liberals sit back drinking their designer gins telling them how they should be happy with their lot. And eat more organic food.. | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. 50 years.... around the same age as the welfare state. Maybe we've come to the point where the working class has had enough of watching the rich get richer, whilst paying through the nose so that those who don't fancy working for a living are provided for. Along with those who don't fancy staying in their own countries where such a welfare system doesn't exist. Marx and Revolution- all the poor have to lose are their chains." Communism doesn't work. Any ideology with a morality woven into it is very dangerous. Capitalism is natural and is a mirror image of the dog eat dog world we live in. lt's not perfect but it's the best we have. | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. 50 years.... around the same age as the welfare state. Maybe we've come to the point where the working class has had enough of watching the rich get richer, whilst paying through the nose so that those who don't fancy working for a living are provided for. Along with those who don't fancy staying in their own countries where such a welfare system doesn't exist. Marx and Revolution- all the poor have to lose are their chains. Exactly, while the wealthy liberals sit back drinking their designer gins telling them how they should be happy with their lot. And eat more organic food.." And forcing 'diversity' upon people who never asked for it and creating extreme competition in the lower end job market. Immigration is good for the elite: Terrible for the poor. | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. 50 years.... around the same age as the welfare state. Maybe we've come to the point where the working class has had enough of watching the rich get richer, whilst paying through the nose so that those who don't fancy working for a living are provided for. Along with those who don't fancy staying in their own countries where such a welfare system doesn't exist. Marx and Revolution- all the poor have to lose are their chains. Exactly, while the wealthy liberals sit back drinking their designer gins telling them how they should be happy with their lot. And eat more organic food.." Using the surplus that has been created for them. Without these people working 0 hour contracts, below minimum wage, in poor working conditions, just an average daily job etc; they wouldn't be living a life of luxury. Whilst I'd love for Marx's theory to become a reality, I do feel like people believe they are bound by these chains as they need to provide for their family, whilst being exploited (even if they don't see it); so it is something that is unlikely to happen, as there are far more poor than rich so it would require a lot of gathering up and influencing people that it's a good thing, to overthrow those doing the exploitation and reaping the benefits. | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. 50 years.... around the same age as the welfare state. Maybe we've come to the point where the working class has had enough of watching the rich get richer, whilst paying through the nose so that those who don't fancy working for a living are provided for. Along with those who don't fancy staying in their own countries where such a welfare system doesn't exist. Marx and Revolution- all the poor have to lose are their chains. Exactly, while the wealthy liberals sit back drinking their designer gins telling them how they should be happy with their lot. And eat more organic food.." I'm all for gin drinking, but organic food is a con. | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? This is meant to be more philosophical than political so I hope it can remain here for a wider, and less polarised, discussion. 50 years.... around the same age as the welfare state. Maybe we've come to the point where the working class has had enough of watching the rich get richer, whilst paying through the nose so that those who don't fancy working for a living are provided for. Along with those who don't fancy staying in their own countries where such a welfare system doesn't exist. Marx and Revolution- all the poor have to lose are their chains. Exactly, while the wealthy liberals sit back drinking their designer gins telling them how they should be happy with their lot. And eat more organic food.. Using the surplus that has been created for them. Without these people working 0 hour contracts, below minimum wage, in poor working conditions, just an average daily job etc; they wouldn't be living a life of luxury. Whilst I'd love for Marx's theory to become a reality, I do feel like people believe they are bound by these chains as they need to provide for their family, whilst being exploited (even if they don't see it); so it is something that is unlikely to happen, as there are far more poor than rich so it would require a lot of gathering up and influencing people that it's a good thing, to overthrow those doing the exploitation and reaping the benefits. " And of course the problem is that the left will do nothing to help these people. Whereas the Right will say "follow me, I'll show you who to blame..." | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.
I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness".
To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself.
So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now?
Positive discrimination,is a made up pc thing.
All discrimination is negative.
the pc brigade dont need a uniform to be identified,you usually hear them,before you see them.
"Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK, so I doubt it has had much impact on you. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.
I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness".
To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself.
So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now?
Positive discrimination,is a made up pc thing.
All discrimination is negative.
the pc brigade dont need a uniform to be identified,you usually hear them,before you see them.
Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK, so I doubt it has had much impact on you. "And yet you still hear about corporations like the BBC advertising for disabled weather presenters. | |||
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" Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK, so I doubt it has had much impact on you. And yet you still hear about corporations like the BBC advertising for disabled weather presenters. "Do you have a link to this story? | |||
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" Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK, so I doubt it has had much impact on you. And yet you still hear about corporations like the BBC advertising for disabled weather presenters.
Do you have a link to this story? "http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/the-bbc-wants-a-new-weather-presenter-who-must-be-disabled-10281565.html | |||
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" Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK, so I doubt it has had much impact on you. And yet you still hear about corporations like the BBC advertising for disabled weather presenters.
Do you have a link to this story?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/the-bbc-wants-a-new-weather-presenter-who-must-be-disabled-10281565.html"Did you actually read the article? It wasn't advertising a job, it was offering training for disabled people. | |||
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" Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK, so I doubt it has had much impact on you. And yet you still hear about corporations like the BBC advertising for disabled weather presenters.
Do you have a link to this story?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/the-bbc-wants-a-new-weather-presenter-who-must-be-disabled-10281565.html
Did you actually read the article? It wasn't advertising a job, it was offering training for disabled people. "Are you against training for disabled people? Is that it? | |||
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"Have the last 50 years been an anomalous blip? We've seen upward social mobility and increased equality (in the West, at least). It wasn't always thus and now we're experiencing greater divides, economically and socially. Perhaps, back to what things used to be like? " I think at times of plenty, there is more satisfaction, and less need to find a scapegoat to blame. This is why politicians seek increasing prosperity, even when they disagree on the methods of achieving this. I worry that the baby-boomers idea of increasingly using money from their grandchildren's generation to fund a lifestyle they chose not to plan for, will lead to increased division, disillusionment and disaffection 
Mr ddc | |||
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" Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK, so I doubt it has had much impact on you. And yet you still hear about corporations like the BBC advertising for disabled weather presenters.
Do you have a link to this story?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/the-bbc-wants-a-new-weather-presenter-who-must-be-disabled-10281565.html
Did you actually read the article? It wasn't advertising a job, it was offering training for disabled people.
Are you against training for disabled people? Is that it? "people are understandably frustrated at those prepared to not work and therefore live on benefits. But a significant amount of those on unemployment benefits are disabled and struggle getting and maintaining work. So training schemes like this have are of enormous value. Hundreds of companies do them, but they're generally not well known. I guess the BBC doing training for a weather presenter makes better copy compared to somebody stacking shelves in M&S. | |||
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" Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK, so I doubt it has had much impact on you. And yet you still hear about corporations like the BBC advertising for disabled weather presenters.
Do you have a link to this story?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/tv-radio/the-bbc-wants-a-new-weather-presenter-who-must-be-disabled-10281565.html
Did you actually read the article? It wasn't advertising a job, it was offering training for disabled people.
Are you against training for disabled people? Is that it?
Yeah. Total disablist me. Twat"You're calling me a twat? What for? I asked for an example of what you think is wrong with political correctness and the example you gave was of training for disabled people. I don't understand what is bad about training for disabled people, or why you would be against it. If that's your position you could at least exaplain why you think its a bad thing. | |||
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"concepts like the venus project have my interest. With our current systems it is all about power,greed,resources.Our technology is progressing so much that lets say in 50 years, the western world at least will have have millions more unemployed due to automation.This will cause drastic divides in people. A new approach is needed...it might sound all airy fairy,but the venus project could be one of our only ways to progress as a species, erasing power,greed,consumerism and ineffective resource management." If it involves the rich and powerful being less rich and powerful it's doomed. | |||
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"Greatness can only exist in the absence of equality. What does that even mean? It means that the very notion of equality is forced upon society by people who aren't happy with their achievements (or lack of) - so the socialist idea of "equality" isn't to make the less fortunate more successful, but to dumb-down the successful and drag them down to the level of the others. Equality is a complete myth. Every single one of the us is competing with each other, whether we like it or not and that's a good thing, as every single person who has ever achieved anything great has done so by trying to be better than others. This is either: 1. Utter shit 2. The beliefs of somebody with a terrible education 3. Just very depressing 4. All of the above That's not a very good counter to a well constructed point of view. It's an honest summary to a piece of ignorant shite. If it were remotely true we wouldn't be here now. The modern age is built up on great civilisations, not some giant caveman who ruled them all. Plenty have been exploited for sure, but there has to have been a driving belief in common goals. Find me one example of any successful empire, recent or ancient, where 'equality' has existed and there hasn't been a hierarchy. " Theoretically communism. In practice - bollocks. Man is incapable equality. The most we can expect is equity. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.
I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness".
To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself.
So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now?
Positive discrimination,is a made up pc thing.
All discrimination is negative.
the pc brigade dont need a uniform to be identified,you usually hear them,before you see them.
Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK, so I doubt it has had much impact on you. "Where have you heard or been told this? Many companies/organisations use positive discrimation when employing people. It is, in no way, shape or form illegal I the uk; it is in fact very active here. | |||
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"concepts like the venus project have my interest. With our current systems it is all about power,greed,resources.Our technology is progressing so much that lets say in 50 years, the western world at least will have have millions more unemployed due to automation.This will cause drastic divides in people. A new approach is needed...it might sound all airy fairy,but the venus project could be one of our only ways to progress as a species, erasing power,greed,consumerism and ineffective resource management. If it involves the rich and powerful being less rich and powerful it's doomed. " thats harsh and realistic yes.However when the shit hits the fan, money and power will mean nothing when you are dead. I'll admit I like the idea of living in a startrekish universe..even if there are no intergalactic relations so to speak. | |||
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" This is the problem. The Right have some well constructed arguments which are, in the main, abhorrent. The left react angrily, but can't construct a plausible argument against them without resorting to insults. Thus losing credibility. Making the Right at least sound intelligent. Which they're not. Pretty much.
I think Left/Right is no longer the real division. It's now educated/uneducated, urban/rural, young/old and a multitude of other divisions. On issues like Brexit and Trump, views don't neatly fall to one side or the other of the political spectrum. I keep getting called a left winger at the moment which is laughable.
No, I think it's still left and right, I just think that binary just has different meanings now. For example, they always had different meanings in the US vs Europe, but they were still applied. So left and right, in my opinion, are still valid lables, they just signal different issues than they used to."Do you view abortion and the death penalty alike? Does the US not have strong political ideologues in this area? | |||
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" The plausible arguments were made very early on. Plausible by measure of us being where we are today on the basis of believing in an increasingly better (more equal) future. That sounds really nice. What a shame its completely untrue and you will be unable to cite a single shred of evidence that "where we are today" has come about through the world having a common goal. In fact, the complete opposite is true, civilization has advanced mainly through rivalry, war and demographic replacements. Renaissance Italy, which arguably produced the greatest art and architecture the world has ever seen, did so when Italy was a sprawling mass of tiny kingdoms, all at war with each other. Ancient Greece (the inventors of democracy) were at perpetual war with the Persians, both empires trying to out-do the other. The wealthy Arab states are now building outrageous luxury, the tallest buildings in the world, etc, because they are trying to out-do the West. This whole notion of progress being a product of different sects "coming together" is total nonsense and I can't begin to imagine where you have read it. Cite me a credible link, I beg you. Any evidence to support your argument will be appreciated... See if you can go without swearing and insults as well, old bean." Look at what the World Health Organisation does. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.
I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness".
To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself.
So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now?
Positive discrimination,is a made up pc thing.
All discrimination is negative.
the pc brigade dont need a uniform to be identified,you usually hear them,before you see them.
Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK, so I doubt it has had much impact on you.
Where have you heard or been told this? Many companies/organisations use positive discrimation when employing people. It is, in no way, shape or form illegal I the uk; it is in fact very active here."Positive discrimination is broadly illegal, with some exceptions such as employing all female staff in a women's shelter. Positive action is allowed under circumstances. | |||
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"I think the problem was political correctness. It just meant behaviour was supressed rather than expressed and dealt with. I agree that it's seemingly becoming apparent that many people had hidden their true attitudes but I don't understand how political correctness was at fault or how things would have been improved without it? Political correctness is like sticking a plaster over skin cancer. It hides it, but does not deal with it. Tolerance and understanding needs to be educated not forced. Political correctness until recently,preached equality for all. Now they preach inequality,as a means of attaining equality. Now they preach discrimination, as a means of ending discrimination. Am I the only one,who sees this as fundamentaly wrong. The politically correct brigade should get back to the drawing board. As it stands, they're alienating everyone.
I genuinely don't understand what you are talking about, which one means either one or both of use doesn't understand "political correctness".
To me political correctness covers things like, don't use deliberately offensive terms for peoples sexuality, race, country, disabilities etc. People on this forum have suggested that using offensive terms like that would be better, and would make people get along, but I really can't see it myself.
So what inequality and discrimination do you see being preached now?
Positive discrimination,is a made up pc thing.
All discrimination is negative.
the pc brigade dont need a uniform to be identified,you usually hear them,before you see them.
"Positive discrimination - more disabled car parking spaces available at peak periods than non disabled. | |||
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"The only people that have managed to divide is the rich corrupt governments and businesses where the poor got targeted and now the people who've been left behind are sticking a middle finger up to the rest of the country." what about monarchs?- I find the very idea distasteful. | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? " Well according to recent threads, the MOBOs are the root of all evil | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? " Louis Smith being banned for insulting a religion. | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Well according to recent threads, the MOBOs are the root of all evil " Not the root of all evil, just hypocritical. | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Well according to recent threads, the MOBOs are the root of all evil Not the root of all evil, just hypocritical." How so? How is it different from other music awards, such as the Country Music Awards? | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Well according to recent threads, the MOBOs are the root of all evil Not the root of all evil, just hypocritical. How so? How is it different from other music awards, such as the Country Music Awards? " Are you being purposely obtuse? Surely you can see the difference. | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? " Not being rude, but with a Thai bride, this isn't a debate you can take an impartial position on, so everything you say is going to be heavily biased in favour of PC culture/liberalism and you will just dismiss all counter arguments. | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Well according to recent threads, the MOBOs are the root of all evil Not the root of all evil, just hypocritical. How so? How is it different from other music awards, such as the Country Music Awards? Are you being purposely obtuse? Surely you can see the difference." No, two different awards for two different genres of music. Why do you take offense, at one but not another? Or find one hypocritical but not another? | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Well according to recent threads, the MOBOs are the root of all evil Not the root of all evil, just hypocritical. How so? How is it different from other music awards, such as the Country Music Awards? Are you being purposely obtuse? Surely you can see the difference. No, two different awards for two different genres of music. Why do you take offense, at one but not another? Or find one hypocritical but not another? " I was hoping you were being obtuse. You must just be a bit dim. Country is a genre. "Black origin" is not. Of music award is based on how it sounds and the other is the colour of skin.. unless you are white and sing like Ali Campbell. | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Not being rude, but with a Thai bride, this isn't a debate you can take an impartial position on, so everything you say is going to be heavily biased in favour of PC culture/liberalism and you will just dismiss all counter arguments. " So you're starting from a position of dismissing all of their arguments as a result of the race of one of the couple? Therefore doing exactly what you are accusing them of? Am I allowed to voice this opinion? Or are you going to try the "you would say that, wouldn't you" angle on me too? I'm not sure what angle you'll use, presumably gender since I'm white, non disabled and straight. | |||
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"So you're starting from a position of dismissing all of their arguments as a result of the race of one of the couple? Therefore doing exactly what you are accusing them of? Am I allowed to voice this opinion? Or are you going to try the "you would say that, wouldn't you" angle on me too? I'm not sure what angle you'll use, presumably gender since I'm white, non disabled and straight. " I love that reply couldn't have said it better | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Well according to recent threads, the MOBOs are the root of all evil Not the root of all evil, just hypocritical. How so? How is it different from other music awards, such as the Country Music Awards? Are you being purposely obtuse? Surely you can see the difference. No, two different awards for two different genres of music. Why do you take offense, at one but not another? Or find one hypocritical but not another? I was hoping you were being obtuse. You must just be a bit dim. Country is a genre. "Black origin" is not. Of music award is based on how it sounds and the other is the colour of skin.. unless you are white and sing like Ali Campbell." You know that non-black people can win MOBO awards right? Let take rap for example, do you think that emerged from white communities, black communities, asian communities, south American communities? | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Not being rude, but with a Thai bride, this isn't a debate you can take an impartial position on, so everything you say is going to be heavily biased in favour of PC culture/liberalism and you will just dismiss all counter arguments. So you're starting from a position of dismissing all of their arguments as a result of the race of one of the couple? Therefore doing exactly what you are accusing them of? Am I allowed to voice this opinion? Or are you going to try the "you would say that, wouldn't you" angle on me too? I'm not sure what angle you'll use, presumably gender since I'm white, non disabled and straight. " It's a valid point though. Don't be disengenuous. Anybody close to an issue will be biased. | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Not being rude, but with a Thai bride, this isn't a debate you can take an impartial position on, so everything you say is going to be heavily biased in favour of PC culture/liberalism and you will just dismiss all counter arguments. So you're starting from a position of dismissing all of their arguments as a result of the race of one of the couple? Therefore doing exactly what you are accusing them of? Am I allowed to voice this opinion? Or are you going to try the "you would say that, wouldn't you" angle on me too? I'm not sure what angle you'll use, presumably gender since I'm white, non disabled and straight. It's a valid point though. Don't be disengenuous. Anybody close to an issue will be biased." I'm not being disingenuous. Everyone is biased, it doesn't invalidate all of their arguments. Exactly the same rationale could be used against you for being a white male who feels threatened by diversity and what you see as positive discrimination. Except I wouldn't use that argument because it's simplistic and patronising. | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Not being rude, but with a Thai bride, this isn't a debate you can take an impartial position on, so everything you say is going to be heavily biased in favour of PC culture/liberalism and you will just dismiss all counter arguments. " In fact are are deliberately trying to be rude, and you are also uniformed and making ignorant assumptions about people you have never met. I do indeed believe that racism is bad. Why do you think racism is good? | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Well according to recent threads, the MOBOs are the root of all evil Not the root of all evil, just hypocritical. How so? How is it different from other music awards, such as the Country Music Awards? Are you being purposely obtuse? Surely you can see the difference. No, two different awards for two different genres of music. Why do you take offense, at one but not another? Or find one hypocritical but not another? I was hoping you were being obtuse. You must just be a bit dim. Country is a genre. "Black origin" is not. Of music award is based on how it sounds and the other is the colour of skin.. unless you are white and sing like Ali Campbell. You know that non-black people can win MOBO awards right? Let take rap for example, do you think that emerged from white communities, black communities, asian communities, south American communities? " I know, I said as much. It's still hypocritical and racist to label any music as "black origin", especially as it's a false title. Take the blues for instance : played on Modern Lutes (guitar), using a modified Western pentatonic scale... Or hip hop:made sampling Kraftwerk and on Japanese synths and samplers. It's silly | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Not being rude, but with a Thai bride, this isn't a debate you can take an impartial position on, so everything you say is going to be heavily biased in favour of PC culture/liberalism and you will just dismiss all counter arguments. So you're starting from a position of dismissing all of their arguments as a result of the race of one of the couple? Therefore doing exactly what you are accusing them of? Am I allowed to voice this opinion? Or are you going to try the "you would say that, wouldn't you" angle on me too? I'm not sure what angle you'll use, presumably gender since I'm white, non disabled and straight. It's a valid point though. Don't be disengenuous. Anybody close to an issue will be biased. I'm not being disingenuous. Everyone is biased, it doesn't invalidate all of their arguments. Exactly the same rationale could be used against you for being a white male who feels threatened by diversity and what you see as positive discrimination. Except I wouldn't use that argument because it's simplistic and patronising." That's not a good analogy at all as it assumes that white men are a monolithic bloc. He knows their opinions and that's the difference. | |||
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"I know you wanted this to be more philosophical, one of the reasons I disliked the Trump result was due to what it stood for. A bit like if Le Pen gets elected for France. The world seems to be more radical and somewhat desperate. Like Ruby said, though, It's a cycle." Who here thinks Le Pen can get in AND get France out of the EU? Is it possible or just a lot of political hot air? | |||
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". That's not a good analogy at all as it assumes that white men are a monolithic bloc. He knows their opinions and that's the difference." It's ignorant and bigoted to make assumptions about people... Apart from heterosexual white men, they're all the same. They're all scared of muh diversity. | |||
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"I know you wanted this to be more philosophical, one of the reasons I disliked the Trump result was due to what it stood for. A bit like if Le Pen gets elected for France. The world seems to be more radical and somewhat desperate. Like Ruby said, though, It's a cycle. Who here thinks Le Pen can get in AND get France out of the EU? Is it possible or just a lot of political hot air? " I dunno... I would've said that surely Trump wouldn't get in so now I think anything's possible! | |||
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"so so far the only thing that people are willing to admit to about political correctness are training courses for disabled people, and parking spaces for disabled people. Anything else? Not being rude, but with a Thai bride, this isn't a debate you can take an impartial position on, so everything you say is going to be heavily biased in favour of PC culture/liberalism and you will just dismiss all counter arguments. So you're starting from a position of dismissing all of their arguments as a result of the race of one of the couple? Therefore doing exactly what you are accusing them of? Am I allowed to voice this opinion? Or are you going to try the "you would say that, wouldn't you" angle on me too? I'm not sure what angle you'll use, presumably gender since I'm white, non disabled and straight. It's a valid point though. Don't be disengenuous. Anybody close to an issue will be biased. I'm not being disingenuous. Everyone is biased, it doesn't invalidate all of their arguments. Exactly the same rationale could be used against you for being a white male who feels threatened by diversity and what you see as positive discrimination. Except I wouldn't use that argument because it's simplistic and patronising. That's not a good analogy at all as it assumes that white men are a monolithic bloc. He knows their opinions and that's the difference." But he didn't say "I know your opinions" and that's why he was dismissing them. He said he was dismissing them because of the race of one of the couple. If all white men don't behave as a homogenous block, why are you supporting the view that people of other ethnic backgrounds do? Although I've only just realised that you and the other lad are not in fact the same poster. Some of you really do behave like homogenous blocks. | |||
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I would say the relative peace and prosperity the baby boomers and generations since (decreasing prosperity in younger generations more recently due to housing costs and the stagnation in wages) feels very much at threat.
"Western liberal democracy" that has delivered unparalleled increases in living standards to a part of the world's population feels very much under threat in a way it hasn't apart from World Wars and then risk of catastrophic nuclear war at times in the 60s to 80s.
Ironically that threat does not seem to be external but instead internal. There has always been inequality but the votes for Trump out of the Rust Belt and Brexit from areas like Sunderland and Boston Lincs, have come from areas that for all the frustration are not actually materially impoverished by historical standards.
My very real fear for the future comes from the fact that for all the rhetoric I don't see how the UK leaving the EU or a Trump presidency are going to make the lot of those communities better. I fear there will be huge disappointment.
Liam Fox is for globalisation, and Leave argued for global free trade which will do nothing for these areas without other intervention. Trump will cut taxes for the rich, and the damage done to the US economy by reducing the Central American migrant workforce will be catastrophic. Importing factory/assembly line jobs from Mexico and China feels like a bizarre way to meet the expectations of the working class in a post-industrial economy. China must look incredulously as they invest heavily in educating their people, whilst we clear the fields of Lincolnshire of European vegetable pockets. The arguments put forward about the scourge of immigration ignore technology/automation as the root cause of the relative decline in economic opportunity for some.
Change is good, but our modern world is incredible complex and frankly fragile, I'm not sure we will all survive some of the change that is coming. Trump, Farage, Fox, Davis, Corbyn, Milliband, Paul Ryan and Hillary will be OK though I'm sure.
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". That's not a good analogy at all as it assumes that white men are a monolithic bloc. He knows their opinions and that's the difference. It's ignorant and bigoted to make assumptions about people... Apart from heterosexual white men, they're all the same. They're all scared of muh diversity. "No, it's also ignorant and bigoted to make ignorant and bigoted assumptions about heterosexual white males. You seem to struggle with comprehension though. Try re-reading my posts more slowly. | |||
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