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To fall in love with anyone - study 2

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I won't repost the context of the first thread here -- please do go back and browse if you'd like to.

https://m.fabswingers.com/forum/lounge/570747

But I had a couple of requests to continue the thread. So in doing so will share this article that I just came across:

What’s Wrong with Needy People?

The ‘needy’ person is a stock figure of caricature: they call too much, they cry when you leave to get a glass of water, they feel put out when you check your phone, they were upset when you watched a film without them. We hate needy people a lot. But let’s look at this another way. There are, of course, a few pathologically dependent people at large, but a lot of the time, far more than is generally accepted, the person who has the problem isn’t the ‘needy’ person at all, it is us; the ones who are doing the accusing. We will feel someone is sickeningly ‘needy’ when we don’t see ourselves as appropriate targets of someone else’s need. Somewhere inside, we don’t trust that we are reliable, strong, dependable, admirable or decent; we aren’t quite grown-up – and those who need something from us therefore come across as deranged and fitting targets for mockery. At the first sign that someone is becoming reliant on us, we flinch. We suspect that someone who needs us enough to depend on us for a pleasant weekend or evening must be diseased. At the root of our hatred of so-called needy people is self-hatred. Ostensibly, we all want love – but when love actually starts to be reciprocated, it may prove intensely alarming if we are not convinced of our own lovability. We can start to think very badly of the person we liked only a little time before. We feel they are naive in finding us wonderful, a great deal more wonderful than we feel we are. We think them gullible, and too easily taken in by a character we ourselves don’t believe in. The solution isn’t necessarily to try to change a lover – by telling them to stop asking so much. They most probably aren’t asking too much at all. They just aren’t afflicted with a sense that it is peculiar to be loved or to love. Put another way, they’re just strong enough to reveal that they aren’t invulnerable and judicious enough to like the look of us. Showing need is a precondition of strength rather than weakness. The solution is to revise our view of ourselves; to see ourselves as more or less plausible people for someone else to stand in need of. The fear of ‘needy’ people is only a species of self-hatred rippling outwards to tar our lover. A reduction of self-hatred doesn’t depend on self-boosterism (telling ourselves how great we are). We should learn to tolerate ourselves not by believing we are wonderful, but via a secure realisation that everyone is both OK and sometimes a bit awful: that is enough to deserve love. We can be cured of our uncommonly vicious self-suspicion by a more accurate vision of what constitutes normality. Of course we are a bit a weak, a bit sly and a bit foolish, to put it gently. But so is everyone. We’re no more idiotic or wayward than the next person. We can embrace a person’s hopes for a close and deep relationship with us simply on the basis that we are, in fact, all a bit odd and broken. The need that the lover has of us isn’t delusional, it’s an accurate request that any flawed human might make of another comparably damaged example. We’ll start to find other people a lot less needy, that is, a lot less alarming when they need us, when we can accept with good grace that there is nothing unusually strange or abhorrent about someone deciding they like us.

So, is it true? Is vulnerability the key to happiness? Are vulnerable people powerful people? Over to your thoughts / feels.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

(Article from the interestingly titled Book of Life)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"(Article from the interestingly titled Book of Life)"

Oh. My. God! I recognise far too many of the main points as traits I try to push back down.

With the above in mind, today will now be known as self-reflection Saturday

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"(Article from the interestingly titled Book of Life)

Oh. My. God! I recognise far too many of the main points as traits I try to push back down.

With the above in mind, today will now be known as self-reflection Saturday

I'm in a deeply ruminative state (or rump native as my autocorrect just told me!) -- it'll pass but for now I'm indulging in it!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I both agree and disagree with this. I find dependence, in all its forms, a really unattractive trait in people. I'm not sure it's because I feel unworthy of being depended upon (I realise I'm hugely oversimplifying the argument in the article) so much as I just find it difficult to truly respect people who aren't enough for themselves.

I think being able to open yourself and being vulnerable is a positive thing *if* you can handle the potential implications of it and you are a good enough judge of character to understand that there are some people in the world who will use it against you.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

Thats another interesting thread estella.

In a relationship you can have many differences but there are certain things you have to have compatability

I know the dynamics of my relationship wouldnt work for other people as its old fashioned.

We are all needy at times but for me there has to be a balance.

I dont want a relationship with someone who texts constantly, wants to know where i am all the while or expects me to be with them all the while.

I dont think there is anything wrong with not wanting to feel suffocated, which i would.

Theres nothing wrong with people that are needy all the while

But they are definetly not for me

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"(Article from the interestingly titled Book of Life)

Oh. My. God! I recognise far too many of the main points as traits I try to push back down.

With the above in mind, today will now be known as self-reflection Saturday

I'm in a deeply ruminative state (or rump native as my autocorrect just told me!) -- it'll pass but for now I'm indulging in it!

So am I, now. But I see that as a good thing, or at least not a bad thing. Life happens, situations change, and the individual often gets left behind. To make matters worse, I think I may have done my fair share of leaving myself behind too. So no harm 'rump native-ing'

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I both agree and disagree with this. I find dependence, in all its forms, a really unattractive trait in people. I'm not sure it's because I feel unworthy of being depended upon (I realise I'm hugely oversimplifying the argument in the article) so much as I just find it difficult to truly respect people who aren't enough for themselves.

Yes! Really well put, R.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

So, is it true? Is vulnerability the key to happiness? Are vulnerable people powerful people? Over to your thoughts / feels.

Don't know if they are more powerful, but we certainly tend to be more emotionally courageous.

I am not 'afflicted with a sense that it is peculiar to be loved or to love' and not afraid to be vulnerable, so I may not be needy - but I am wanty!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Thats another interesting thread estella.

In a relationship you can have many differences but there are certain things you have to have compatability

I know the dynamics of my relationship wouldnt work for other people as its old fashioned.

We are all needy at times but for me there has to be a balance.

I dont want a relationship with someone who texts constantly, wants to know where i am all the while or expects me to be with them all the while.

I dont think there is anything wrong with not wanting to feel suffocated, which i would.

Theres nothing wrong with people that are needy all the while

But they are definetly not for me"

Yes, it challenges the absolute definition of needy being the stereotypical overly dependent or "clingy" that we all dread or the "controlling" emotionally abusive stifling predator -- but I like the grey space that raises the question whether we forget the spectrum where some neediness is pushed away because we cannot handle that we are necessary to someone. I think the use of the word needy is challenging (and is meant to be) as we tend to only see it in terms of the drippy, unable to have that strong inner core strength of their own caricature.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"(Article from the interestingly titled Book of Life)

Oh. My. God! I recognise far too many of the main points as traits I try to push back down.

With the above in mind, today will now be known as self-reflection Saturday

I'm in a deeply ruminative state (or rump native as my autocorrect just told me!) -- it'll pass but for now I'm indulging in it!

Rump-native for the win.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So, is it true? Is vulnerability the key to happiness? Are vulnerable people powerful people? Over to your thoughts / feels.

Don't know if they are more powerful, but we certainly tend to be more emotionally courageous.

I am not 'afflicted with a sense that it is peculiar to be loved or to love' and not afraid to be vulnerable, so I may not be needy - but I am wanty!

May you receive all that you want!

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By *ureTemptationWoman over a year ago

Off the grid

I used to be needy/clingy.

Guys would lose interest really fast, and it took me a while to figure out why.

I ended up getting bar work in the evenings on top of my main job.

It stopped me being clingy because I had somewhere else to go/be. Plus you get a lot of attention doing bar work, which I liked.

Plus your new bloke knows you're out, not with him and chatting to other guys as part of your job and it seems to make them keener and redress the balance a bit.

I'm sure there are people who'd disagree with this but it worked like a charm for me.

Once that early stage of a new relationship is passed, I turn into a normal person.

(I have to state here I'm not clingy these days because I have my husband for that. Fab is just because I'm an attention slut.

)

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

"Thats another interesting thread estella.

In a relationship you can have many differences but there are certain things you have to have compatability

I know the dynamics of my relationship wouldnt work for other people as its old fashioned.

We are all needy at times but for me there has to be a balance.

I dont want a relationship with someone who texts constantly, wants to know where i am all the while or expects me to be with them all the while.

I dont think there is anything wrong with not wanting to feel suffocated, which i would.

Theres nothing wrong with people that are needy all the while

But they are definetly not for me

"
right, this is abit long winded. When i met my partner it was a friendship that grew into love, he always says it was my vulnerability he fell in love with. When i met him i was a hard, cold fish who couldnt give a shit about anything, he always says he saw something there. Now as we became friends i gradually opened up about things spoke about things, as you do with people you are close to. Now he also says one of my main qualities is im not jaded by life, he saw that all i wanted was to have someone who understood me, now with me having my illness he knew it wouldnt be an easy ride and i also knew that i would have to let him see me at my most vulnerable. It was hard breaking down all my guards to let someone see the real me. Not the hard face everyone else saw but the soft and gentle person i am. He finds it very endearing that all the life challenges ive faced i can still get excited when a squirrel runs out in front of me..

He has helped me find the real me and if it wasnt for him i would of never typed this post. Now i know its ok to expose myself but i also know there are people who may use it to there advantage. I have amazing friends and family. And i am so content i have inner peace.

Just as long as people dont think im going to take any shit

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I used to be needy/clingy.

Guys would lose interest really fast, and it took me a while to figure out why.

I ended up getting bar work in the evenings on top of my main job.

It stopped me being clingy because I had somewhere else to go/be. Plus you get a lot of attention doing bar work, which I liked.

Plus your new bloke knows you're out, not with him and chatting to other guys as part of your job and it seems to make them keener and redress the balance a bit.

I'm sure there are people who'd disagree with this but it worked like a charm for me.

Once that early stage of a new relationship is passed, I turn into a normal person.

(I have to state here I'm not clingy these days because I have my husband for that. Fab is just because I'm an attention slut.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Thats another interesting thread estella.

In a relationship you can have many differences but there are certain things you have to have compatability

I know the dynamics of my relationship wouldnt work for other people as its old fashioned.

We are all needy at times but for me there has to be a balance.

I dont want a relationship with someone who texts constantly, wants to know where i am all the while or expects me to be with them all the while.

I dont think there is anything wrong with not wanting to feel suffocated, which i would.

Theres nothing wrong with people that are needy all the while

But they are definetly not for me

right, this is abit long winded. When i met my partner it was a friendship that grew into love, he always says it was my vulnerability he fell in love with. When i met him i was a hard, cold fish who couldnt give a shit about anything, he always says he saw something there. Now as we became friends i gradually opened up about things spoke about things, as you do with people you are close to. Now he also says one of my main qualities is im not jaded by life, he saw that all i wanted was to have someone who understood me, now with me having my illness he knew it wouldnt be an easy ride and i also knew that i would have to let him see me at my most vulnerable. It was hard breaking down all my guards to let someone see the real me. Not the hard face everyone else saw but the soft and gentle person i am. He finds it very endearing that all the life challenges ive faced i can still get excited when a squirrel runs out in front of me..

Just as long as people dont think im going to take any shit"

this makes me smile

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

The last guy I saw was always texting, saw him everyday for months and kept asking if we was ok and was always asking who I was texting etc...I felt penned in at times but I still fell for him I'm not sure if it was because I was with him everyday but that's what he wanted...

Then he said I was getting too serious and it was all just weird...he is the type of guy that jumps from relationship to relationship...there are lots to the relationship but it has taken me and is still taking me a hell of a long time to get over him...

It was the head fuck more than anything but I do think it's down to him hating himself...in the process I have lost the person I was, my self confidence has been shattered and I don't know..I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make..

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"The last guy I saw was always texting, saw him everyday for months and kept asking if we was ok and was always asking who I was texting etc...I felt penned in at times but I still fell for him I'm not sure if it was because I was with him everyday but that's what he wanted...

Sounds typical of narcissistic 'love-bombing'....they get very intense and come on really strong to a new 'source' to get them hooked, and it's very easy to become enamoured with that. But then they will gradually begin to devalue, and then often coldly discard in the end.

If it's fucked with your head try reading 'Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity'

Book by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Understanding it's their pathology often helps.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

If it's fucked with your head try reading 'Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity'

Book by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Understanding it's their pathology often helps."

Yeah he told me he loved me and that he was going to treat me and how he was looking forward to the weekend with me and an hour later I was dumped on a night out...kept hanging for 2 weeks then coldly blocked from everything as he wanted to move on...

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

May you receive all that you want!

Thank you lol. I don't mind people needing me - if I like them and I can fulfill their need and it pleases me to, well why not? I like it when my fwb come to me for emotional support, or ask my advice on handling the demented women in their life!

But if I have a need I expect them to reciprocate - friendships like all relationships should about give and take in balance. I can be very demanding myself, I want a lot from people sometimes, and I think that's all healthy. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours.

It becomes unhealthy if people are manipulative or start to use people, taking without giving back in equal measure. They may have pathology which makes them very needy, but that does not make them any less damaging, and natural givers have to learn how to say no.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

If it's fucked with your head try reading 'Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity'

Book by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Understanding it's their pathology often helps.

Yeah, that's one fucked up puppy - normal healthy adults don't do that kind of cuntish behaviour.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

If it's fucked with your head try reading 'Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity'

Book by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Understanding it's their pathology often helps.

Yeah, that's one fucked up puppy - normal healthy adults don't do that kind of cuntish behaviour.

Yeah I guess that's why I'm so fucked up in the head over it, it's almost like I crave from him back and I know I shouldn't

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

If it's fucked with your head try reading 'Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity'

Book by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Understanding it's their pathology often helps.

Yeah, that's one fucked up puppy - normal healthy adults don't do that kind of cuntish behaviour.

Yeah I guess that's why I'm so fucked up in the head over it, it's almost like I crave from him back and I know I shouldn't "

That is the normal response to love bombing. Normal people respond to it as if it were real - if it were real, it would really be worth something!

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By *ficouldMan over a year ago

a quandary, could you change my mind?

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

If it's fucked with your head try reading 'Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity'

Book by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Understanding it's their pathology often helps.

Yeah, that's one fucked up puppy - normal healthy adults don't do that kind of cuntish behaviour.

Yeah I guess that's why I'm so fucked up in the head over it, it's almost like I crave from him back and I know I shouldn't

That is the normal response to love bombing. Normal people respond to it as if it were real - if it were real, it would really be worth something!"

6 weeks later he is with someone else I sit here and think was it all an act with me is he treating her any better...fuck knows what is wrong with me

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If it's fucked with your head try reading 'Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity'

Book by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Understanding it's their pathology often helps.

Yeah, that's one fucked up puppy - normal healthy adults don't do that kind of cuntish behaviour.

Yeah I guess that's why I'm so fucked up in the head over it, it's almost like I crave from him back and I know I shouldn't

That is the normal response to love bombing. Normal people respond to it as if it were real - if it were real, it would really be worth something!

6 weeks later he is with someone else I sit here and think was it all an act with me is he treating her any better...fuck knows what is wrong with me "

There's nothing wrong with you, sausage. He made have made you feel shit, but that really doesn't mean you should blame yourself or feel bad

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Thanks Frisky & Cheeky,

Reading more about "love bombing" -- interesting -- and perhaps is why I struggle to be less guarded and become openly vulnerable.

It talks of clues to the possibility of being victim to love bombing as the intensity and rapid pace and no room to come up for air -- the pace being set by the manipulator. But what about the rush and excitement of getting to know someone -- how do you find room to take a leap of faith on this but not fall foul of being victim?

Tough stuff. And I'm sorry to hear your experience Cheeky -- sending you restorative happy stuff.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

"Thanks Frisky & Cheeky,

Reading more about "love bombing" -- interesting -- and perhaps is why I struggle to be less guarded and become openly vulnerable.

Tough stuff. And I'm sorry to hear your experience Cheeky -- sending you restorative happy stuff.

I feel like an idiot for falling for it all I just thought it was my turn.....he was so convincing with what he was saying and all I can think about is him with this other woman...I'm not in a good place at the moment I just hope I can get over it all quickly

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

Sorry I've turned this thread into all about my problems I'm sorry

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Sorry I've turned this thread into all about my problems I'm sorry

Stop. No apology needed -- there's no right/wrong way for the thread to go -- also if writing some stuff out is of use to you, then that's positive, and you never know how helpful your sharing is for others (I'm finding it very helpful, so thank you) -- anyone uninterested can make their own decisions to read, comment or ignore.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

So, is it true? Is vulnerability the key to happiness? Are vulnerable people powerful people? Over to your thoughts / feels.

Don't know if they are more powerful, but we certainly tend to be more emotionally courageous.

I am not 'afflicted with a sense that it is peculiar to be loved or to love' and not afraid to be vulnerable, so I may not be needy - but I am wanty!

I like that. It's taken me a while to get 'wanty' and I feel stronger for it. If someone else feels it as unattractive neediness then we're not compatible.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Love and stuff.

Hmmm.

I'm very bad at being in love.

I fall hard and I morph into a myriad of unsavoury characters.

It's very uncomfortable for both.

Only one man has stuck with me.

He knows me inside out yet accepts me for all of my faults.

We're not in love anymore but we love one another.

I don't think I want to be in love ever again.

That sounds sad but it is something that I have thought on and it seems the best way of protecting myself and the man.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

" I feel like an idiot for falling for it all I just thought it was my turn.....he was so convincing with what he was saying and all I can think about is him with this other woman...I'm not in a good place at the moment I just hope I can get over it all quickly

You're not an idiot, your reaction to what he presented was a genuine response and so your trauma on the discovery that it was not genuine or perhaps was, but wasn't lasting for him, does not make you an idiot. You need to give yourself a break from beating up on yourself.

I read this:

"It might help to think of healing a traumatized mind or heart as one would think of interacting with a traumatized child. We would treat them gently, with patience and nurturance, right? We would not want to repeatedly discuss the details of their abuse, or inflame their pain by interacting harshly or with impatience.

Well … you deserve that same approach from yourself (and from others) during the often raw and intense period following a relationship with an extremely insensitive, abusive partner.

In the aftermath of these toxic relationships, emotions often feel like they’ve been attacked and ravaged by a destructive force. A person can easily feel overwhelmed, out of control, lonely, in pain, and unlike their old selves."

Be gentle with yourself, be patient, nurture yourself.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

I do know if anything ever happened to jay i wouldnt want another man. From all the various threads about the dating game i know it wouldnt be me and i couldnt be bothered with all the getting to know someone all over again.

Just me and my cats

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

If it's fucked with your head try reading 'Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity'

Book by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Understanding it's their pathology often helps.

Cheeky, don't beat yourself up. Plus, it hasn't been that long in terms of getting over him/the relationship. Think of it like any withdrawal from a powerful substance: if you go through it cold turkey then it hurts like hell and you can't predict all the symptoms. You then have to go into recovery mode and true recovery takes longer than you think.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

So, is it true? Is vulnerability the key to happiness? Are vulnerable people powerful people? Over to your thoughts / feels.

Don't know if they are more powerful, but we certainly tend to be more emotionally courageous.

I am not 'afflicted with a sense that it is peculiar to be loved or to love' and not afraid to be vulnerable, so I may not be needy - but I am wanty!

I like that. It's taken me a while to get 'wanty' and I feel stronger for it. If someone else feels it as unattractive neediness then we're not compatible.

It's a good word "wanty" -- I intend to be wanty and wanton!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Love and stuff.

Hmmm.

I'm very bad at being in love.

I fall hard and I morph into a myriad of unsavoury characters.

It's very uncomfortable for both.

Only one man has stuck with me.

He knows me inside out yet accepts me for all of my faults.

We're not in love anymore but we love one another.

I don't think I want to be in love ever again.

That sounds sad but it is something that I have thought on and it seems the best way of protecting myself and the man.

Self-protection is an important place to be when things are tough. You are a very dear person, friend.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I do know if anything ever happened to jay i wouldnt want another man. From all the various threads about the dating game i know it wouldnt be me and i couldnt be bothered with all the getting to know someone all over again.

Just me and my cats"

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

If it's fucked with your head try reading 'Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity'

Book by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Understanding it's their pathology often helps.

Hella yes to this.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

" "

So needy!!

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Thanks Frisky & Cheeky,

Reading more about "love bombing" -- interesting -- and perhaps is why I struggle to be less guarded and become openly vulnerable.

Tough stuff. And I'm sorry to hear your experience Cheeky -- sending you restorative happy stuff.

You need to hit the re-set button. If it looks and feels like gold it may be gold. When it turns out to be base metal and paint we feel foolish but that doesn't mean we should distrust everything else about ourselves.

Look at all the decisions you make, every day, and most will be sound. Build from that.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

May you receive all that you want!

Learning to say no -- now there's a whole thread topic in itself!

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Love and stuff.

Hmmm.

I'm very bad at being in love.

I fall hard and I morph into a myriad of unsavoury characters.

It's very uncomfortable for both.

Only one man has stuck with me.

He knows me inside out yet accepts me for all of my faults.

We're not in love anymore but we love one another.

I don't think I want to be in love ever again.

That sounds sad but it is something that I have thought on and it seems the best way of protecting myself and the man.

From experience, shutting the love out of your life may feel safer but it leaves you impoverished and only feeling part of yourself.

It bloody hurts to feel it all but you kill part of yourself by remaining a hard shell that blocks the feelings.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

Love and stuff.

Hmmm.

I'm very bad at being in love.

I fall hard and I morph into a myriad of unsavoury characters.

It's very uncomfortable for both.

Only one man has stuck with me.

He knows me inside out yet accepts me for all of my faults.

We're not in love anymore but we love one another.

I don't think I want to be in love ever again.

That sounds sad but it is something that I have thought on and it seems the best way of protecting myself and the man.

From experience, shutting the love out of your life may feel safer but it leaves you impoverished and only feeling part of yourself.

It bloody hurts to feel it all but you kill part of yourself by remaining a hard shell that blocks the feelings.

Yes, I seem unable to do that for which I am truly grateful, I would hate to become comfortably numb, that's a life not worth living in my book.

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By *oachman 9CoolMan over a year ago

derby

If it's fucked with your head try reading 'Stalking the Soul: Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity'

Book by Marie-France Hirigoyen. Understanding it's their pathology often helps.

Yeah, that's one fucked up puppy - normal healthy adults don't do that kind of cuntish behaviour.

"
yes also shows the cold side to part of what makes a serial killer narcissism two sided personalities quite scary Indeed.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

Thank you guys....it's been a difficult journey and I am still not quite there but I'm sure I will be...

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

6 weeks later he is with someone else I sit here and think was it all an act with me is he treating her any better...fuck knows what is wrong with me "

Nothing - you're just a victim. Being an empath makes you an obvious target is all. Try and read - the more you see the truth and identify the patterns of his behaviour, the more you will realise it was not your fault, for instance:

"Narcissistic seduction confuses and erodes the boundaries of one’s own identity… The victim is caught as in a spiders web, held captive..bound psychologically and anaesthetised...... completely unconscious of what’s happened….."

It was a mirage, by the sound of things you were deceived.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

6 weeks later he is with someone else I sit here and think was it all an act with me is he treating her any better...fuck knows what is wrong with me

It was a mirage, by the sound of things you were deceived.

I used to refer to an ex as Svengali like and it wasn't until I was out the other side before I realised just how much.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

6 weeks later he is with someone else I sit here and think was it all an act with me is he treating her any better...fuck knows what is wrong with me

It was a mirage, by the sound of things you were deceived.

Do they treat "different" victims differently? Because I bloody pity his new woman...

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

It was a mirage, by the sound of things you were deceived.

Do they treat "different" victims differently? Because I bloody pity his new woman... "

My experience is that they tailor their approach to each person. The outcome and core behaviour will be the same but the outside presentation will be dressed differently.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I like the single life, you can do what you want when you want

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I find that the reliability trait of others can be exhausting and off putting as I'm a character to likes to help when I can and sees things more logically than emotionally at the best and worst of times. Something that I dont find desirable about neediness is the attention that can be demanded as I'm more of a self sustained personality.

One thing I have found myself hard at understanding is whether the neediness that I have experienced has included sincerity at actually wanting MY attention and affection or just needing some attention and affection from a source.

Ultimately I like self reliance and low amounts of neediness to be something I aim for in a partner.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"I find that the reliability trait of others can be exhausting and off putting as I'm a character to likes to help when I can and sees things more logically than emotionally at the best and worst of times. Something that I dont find desirable about neediness is the attention that can be demanded as I'm more of a self sustained personality.

Ultimately I like self reliance and low amounts of neediness to be something I aim for in a partner. "

Therein lies the problem. If one wants to know that it is their counsel and attention that is required that feels flattering, if anyone's will do then that feels like abuse.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You need to hit the re-set button. If it looks and feels like gold it may be gold. When it turns out to be base metal and paint we feel foolish but that doesn't mean we should distrust everything else about ourselves.

Look at all the decisions you make, every day, and most will be sound. Build from that.

I love this

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I like the single life, you can do what you want when you want

Does being single mean there's no accountability for your actions or impact on others?

Just a thought....

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Ultimately I like self reliance and low amounts of neediness to be something I aim for in a partner.

Therein lies the problem. If one wants to know that it is their counsel and attention that is required that feels flattering, if anyone's will do then that feels like abuse.

Indeed!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I like the single life, you can do what you want when you want

Does being single mean there's no accountability for your actions or impact on others?

Just a thought...."
That is a good thought and no. I dont think there is, do you?.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I like the single life, you can do what you want when you want

Does being single mean there's no accountability for your actions or impact on others?

Just a thought....That is a good thought and no. I dont think there is, do you?."

No, I think you always have a responsibility for your impact on others whether you acted intentionally or not, similarly those hurt have a responsibility to endeavour to understand the intent of the other as they explain it. It's a shared dynamic bourne forth and secured by communication, respect, compassion and hope for good. Thank you for clarifying that your enjoyment of singledom wasn't without care!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I've enjoyed reading this thread, it's nice to read the candour and genuine experiences of folks.

I've found that the concept of love can be something of a dirty word on fab at times and there is a large strata of members who are very phobic to both the concept and emotions, I find your views on love very refreshing OP and a breath of fresh air

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I've enjoyed reading this thread, it's nice to read the candour and genuine experiences of folks.

Thank you Tea Monkey. I still want in your pants though, eh?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Being needy isn't a good long term trait. It's dependency, and adults shouldn't be dependents as it's immature -there are some exceptions such as those who can't look after themselves could be dependents.

But, with those who enjoy being needed, it can work out nicely between them. So long as there are no other toxic behaviours.

I quite enjoy feeling needed and have had a partner who made me feel loveable after being fucked up by my childhood, so i can see how it works. Ever since him i've never felt bad about myself, since just the one time we were having sex and he was kissing me and held my face like he really gave a shit about me, and all his actions proved he really did love me (well, near the end we fucked up but i know he loved me).

If you can never be reassured you have some worth then i don't see the point in being needy and can imagine that person is a drain on their partner emotionally, especially if they keep demanding reassurance. Suppose if you're patient and enjoy reassuring then that could work too. I know personally i wouldn't want to constantly have to play head games or have to keep proving i mean what i say and do just because someone else has issues within themselves.

Being vulnerable is needed for love but without trust you are likely to get hurt.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 12/11/16 23:08:20]

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Being needy isn't a good long term trait. It's dependency, and adults shouldn't be dependents as it's immature -there are some exceptions such as those who can't look after themselves could be dependents.

But, with those who enjoy being needed, it can work out nicely between them. So long as there are no other toxic behaviours.

Being vulnerable is needed for love but without trust you are likely to get hurt."

You make very good points here about the negative connotations and impact of neediness (likely the more often behaviours associated with the term) and I agree. I like the use of the word 'needy' in the article as a challenge to that association but I wonder what the more socially accepted term might be for the 'grey' area of need that the article is focused on? Where it is about letting someone depend/rely/need you in a healthy way -- and how some struggle with this from a partner because they don't feel worthy of receiving that love and consequent partnership?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But, with those who enjoy being needed, it can work out nicely between them. So long as there are no other toxic behaviours.

Being vulnerable is needed for love but without trust you are likely to get hurt.

I don't feel love is dependency myself, no offence meant to anyone who thinks it is. Children/the immature are dependents, some disabilities might also make someone dependent. Of course all of these types love having their needs seen to as they are not capable of fulfilling that themselves, but we should be teaching them how to do this themselves eventually -and how to become mentally healthy adults who do not depend on someone else if at all possible.

Being needy/dependent can mean you'll put up with unacceptable behaviours from a partner too, also you can drive yourself mad and bring the other person down with you. I feel you should want someone to be in your life without being dependent on them as they are a person in their own right with their own needs to and they can leave your life at any time.

But if both peoples needs work out and fit with the others then i don't see any harm, so long as there are no other toxic behaviour (as already mentioned).

I did wonder if the article meant reliable, but it seems not after looking at your other topic as well. Relaince is slightly different as we expect people not to let us down and there's nothing wrong with that. It helps build up trust that we need to maintain a relationship. I suppose a needy person would not have realistic expectations with their demands for reliability? Not sure about this.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 12/11/16 23:28:49]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The transitions from dependence through independence to interdependence is a developmental journey individuals may go through. Dependence is a feature of our life as a child and early adolescence. If all goes well we develop independence during our our teenage years and in adulthood begin to develop interdependence. While we may have early formative experiences that mean that aspects of our development may be arrested and not evolve we tend to develop over time with that trajectory.

Dependence means we depend on others for direction, protection, beliefs and so on.... getting our needs met by others. As independence develops so does our self reliance with a reduction in the associated vulnerability of dependence. As we increasingly recognise the interconnectedness of the universe we begin to value interdependence above our independence. However to be truly interdependent as humans it requires mutual vulnerability. In other words a conscious or self aware vulnerability as distinct from the unconscious vulnerability and neediness of our early years.

Unconscious vulnerability and neediness is the trait our independent selves devalue because we have 'moved on from that shit'. However our independent selves are also scared of mutual vulnerability because there is more potential for trust to be abused and to be hurt. This is more likely if we have previous experiences of betrayal, abandonment etc....

And so we often protect and defend ourselves from that which our hearts most desires because of the 'shit' we have had to deal with on the road...

Courtesy of WitchDoc Brainfarts™

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

But, with those who enjoy being needed, it can work out nicely between them. So long as there are no other toxic behaviours.

Being vulnerable is needed for love but without trust you are likely to get hurt.

But if both peoples needs work out and fit with the others then i don't see any harm, so long as there are no other toxic behaviour (as already mentioned).

Thank you for your points. I'm not sure that I'm suggesting love is solely dependency, as I agree with you that it is not. Also, the two articles are different sources and not related -- it was more that I've been reading on a number of topics and just chose excerpts to provide stimulation.

I understand the points you are making, and I'm not at odds with them.

Perhaps I'm more focused on the aspect of the article on this thread around the concept of the person not feeling worthy of receiving love (let's remove neediness or dependency of the other from the equation).

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"The transitions from dependence through independence to interdependence is a developmental journey individuals may go through. Dependence is a feature of our life as a child and early adolescence. If all goes well we develop independence during our our teenage years and in adulthood begin to develop interdependence. While we may have early formative experiences that mean that aspects of our development may be arrested and not evolve we tend to develop over time with that trajectory.

And so we often protect and defend ourselves from that which our hearts most desires because of the 'shit' we have had to deal with on the road...

Courtesy of WitchDoc Brainfarts™"

Oh wow! So much this! Interdependence -- that's the word! Thank you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

And so we often protect and defend ourselves from that which our hearts most desires because of the 'shit' we have had to deal with on the road...

Courtesy of WitchDoc Brainfarts™

Oh wow! So much this! Interdependence -- that's the word! Thank you.

Apologies for the typos and grammatical and punctuation errors all courtesy of an iPhone and 3 WitchDoc Cocktails (hic)

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Apologies for the typos and grammatical and punctuation errors all courtesy of an iPhone and 3 WitchDoc Cocktails (hic)

Ha! Of course

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But, with those who enjoy being needed, it can work out nicely between them. So long as there are no other toxic behaviours.

Being vulnerable is needed for love but without trust you are likely to get hurt.

But if both peoples needs work out and fit with the others then i don't see any harm, so long as there are no other toxic behaviour (as already mentioned).

I understand the points you are making, and I'm not at odds with them.

I'm highly independent (have had to be for a long time and only my nice ex made me feel worthy, although i've given myself value since he made me feel i had some) so it might just be i cannot understand this topic correctly at all because of that.

I almost get what interdependence means, but to me it still implies some form of dependence, and i don't fully understand the vulnerability thing but i've only just heard of the term, it might take me a while to understand it.

I like your topics though, they make an interesting change to the forum.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

I think there's not just one route to fulfilment - there are likely many.

But as social creatures we are in need of social contact. And it's healthy for us to be able to become closer and intimate with people. I think that we have many levels of connection abilities - not all or nothing. Healthily we can gauge who's good for us, take risks by letting others in - or more of ourselves out - and accept our own vulnerabilities, as well as those of other people.

Criticising others as needy is an excuse for putting up our own barriers, definitely in denial that we have needs too.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think there's not just one route to fulfilment - there are likely many.

Criticising others as needy is an excuse for putting up our own barriers, definitely in denial that we have needs too. "

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

But, with those who enjoy being needed, it can work out nicely between them. So long as there are no other toxic behaviours.

Being vulnerable is needed for love but without trust you are likely to get hurt.

But if both peoples needs work out and fit with the others then i don't see any harm, so long as there are no other toxic behaviour (as already mentioned).

I understand the points you are making, and I'm not at odds with them.

I like your topics though, they make an interesting change to the forum."

Oh you and me both! I'm just learning, listening, trying to understand a myriad of things -- and don't think for a second that I have any better comprehension! I'm learning and thinking from your post. And everyone's. Really, thank you for your contributions -- they are honest and heartfelt and worthy.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think there's not just one route to fulfilment - there are likely many.

Criticising others as needy is an excuse for putting up our own barriers, definitely in denial that we have needs too. "

Wonderfully articulated

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

I think the article uses the word 'needy' inadvisedly - it carries so much negative association it is almost impossible to think of it in a different light.

To form an adult relationship is to transition from independance to interdependance - a form of symbiosis. It is entirely normal upon increasing intimacy and closeness for two people to begin expressing their needs to each other, to start trusting each other, and relying upon one another.

But that brings with it a vulnerability, and people who cannot handle that may well find all kinds of rationalisations for pushing someone away.

But I don't think I have heard of someone rejecting an increasing trust and reliance because they did not think they were worthy of *IT*, to my mind it is more likely that they did not think they were worthy of love, and so threw the baby out with the bathwater.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Oh you and me both! I'm just learning, listening, trying to understand a myriad of things -- and don't think for a second that I have any better comprehension! I'm learning and thinking from your post. And everyone's. Really, thank you for your contributions -- they are honest and heartfelt and worthy.

you're welcome and thanks.

i know i have issues and my issues mean i have to look at others issues to decide whether to protect myself or not. i am a bit naive but love being vulnerable.

ideally we could all be vulnerable if there was no-one out there taking advantage of your vulnerability.

i am going to keep an eye on this topic to see what others say as the more people elaborate the more i will understand.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

told you it'd take a while...

i think i get it now, and i don't think in the way like anything the topic said and that was the problem, hating the needy (as a mum of 4 i've loved being needed), i also love being vulnerable.

being vulnerable doesn't make you powerful if you haven't got appropriate boundaries. i think being relied on somewhat does if you value that, someone selfish or needing self care would not want to be relied on.

i think people tend to be reciprocal also, so if someone is more needy than you this is the problem? but then this wouldn't be interdependence would it as it wouldn't be mutual? - struggling with this interdependence a bit still. plus i don't fully understand why you would ridicule someone for having needs.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think the article uses the word 'needy' inadvisedly - it carries so much negative association it is almost impossible to think of it in a different light.

But that brings with it a vulnerability, and people who cannot handle that may well find all kinds of rationalisations for pushing someone away.

I still liked the challenge on the word's negative association as a way of engaging me in the topic. I think your last paragraph is what I mean -- I know a number of people who have felt this way (but you're right it's the love they don't feel worthy of, the other's desire or manifestation of interdependence the trigger of their feelings of unworthiness)

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"told you it'd take a while...

i think i get it now, and i don't think in the way like anything the topic said and that was the problem, hating the needy (as a mum of 4 i've loved being needed), i also love being vulnerable.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"told you it'd take a while...

i think i get it now, and i don't think in the way like anything the topic said and that was the problem, hating the needy (as a mum of 4 i've loved being needed), i also love being vulnerable.

The article is also a bit confusing by describing a caricature of a hyperneedy person and then going on to talk about normal people being called needy.....

One reason people mock others and accuse them of being needy is they hate their own neediness - we project outwards a criticism of that which we loathe in ourselves, but deny usually. But also if they cannot cope with or don't want with the normal progression of closeness they may use that as an excuse to withdraw.

Symbiotic interdependance would be the normal healthy version of a loving adult relationship, but in a lot of relationships there is a giver and a taker, and that can be less healthy.

If you both give equally, it all works.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"told you it'd take a while...

i think i get it now, and i don't think in the way like anything the topic said and that was the problem, hating the needy (as a mum of 4 i've loved being needed), i also love being vulnerable.

The article is also a bit confusing by describing a caricature of a hyperneedy person and then going on to talk about normal people being called needy.....

Symbiotic interdependance would be the normal healthy version of a loving adult relationship, but in a lot of relationships there is a giver and a taker, and that can be less healthy.

If you both give equally, it all works.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"....... the other's desire or manifestation of interdependence the trigger of their feelings of unworthiness)"

Yes, that's a better way of expressing it I think lol!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The article is also a bit confusing by describing a caricature of a hyperneedy person and then going on to talk about normal people being called needy.....

Symbiotic interdependance would be the normal healthy version of a loving adult relationship, but in a lot of relationships there is a giver and a taker, and that can be less healthy.

If you both give equally, it all works.

that's why i kind of don't get it as i don't project much i think but used to internalise a lot of things instead (blame myself for others issues -was brought being blamed for a lot of things that weren't my issue).

so it's talking about reciprocality (symbosis) in personal relationships, and that is what interdependence is. but that some don't like being needed because they don't feel worthy of being needed (i can get that bit) and they reject the person because of that but they only see the other person as needy (i don't get this but do understand what it means).

if so, then being vulnerable is definitely powerful. it allows you to be loved by others and that's a truly wonderful feeling, it gives you a self value that you never knew you had. it helps you to understand that nobody has a right to make you feel valueless. and i know this from my own personal experience.

this is how i feel about human rights too, that every sentient being should have them because if we don't allow every sentient being the rights we give ourselves then we are not decent people for doing so and we aren't more worthy than anyone else on this planet. it's why i don't believe in hierarchy also.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"The article is also a bit confusing by describing a caricature of a hyperneedy person and then going on to talk about normal people being called needy.....

Symbiotic interdependance would be the normal healthy version of a loving adult relationship, but in a lot of relationships there is a giver and a taker, and that can be less healthy.

If you both give equally, it all works.

Haha, how funny - I get the bit you don't get, but you get the bit I don't get!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The article is also a bit confusing by describing a caricature of a hyperneedy person and then going on to talk about normal people being called needy.....

Symbiotic interdependance would be the normal healthy version of a loving adult relationship, but in a lot of relationships there is a giver and a taker, and that can be less healthy.

If you both give equally, it all works.

Haha, how funny - I get the bit you don't get, but you get the bit I don't get!!!

i've gone into silly mode now so it's even funnier now you've said its funny.

with my ex i used to feel like i didn't deserve him (initially) but it just made me sad to feel like that, but i never pushed him away because i wanted to be loved and wanted his love because it was unconditional, and somehow he just kept giving it to me until i believed i was worth that.

worked out ok for me and changed my whole perspective.

but that is why i understand that bit.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

And I'm learning from you both!

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"The article is also a bit confusing by describing a caricature of a hyperneedy person and then going on to talk about normal people being called needy.....

Symbiotic interdependance would be the normal healthy version of a loving adult relationship, but in a lot of relationships there is a giver and a taker, and that can be less healthy.

If you both give equally, it all works.

Haha, how funny - I get the bit you don't get, but you get the bit I don't get!!!

i've gone into silly mode now so it's even funnier now you've said its funny.

worked out ok for me and changed my whole perspective.

but that is why i understand that bit."

Yes, I never felt undeserved but I count myself extremely lucky to have had an amazingly giving lover all through my teens, my first experience was so good it set me up for life

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"And I'm learning from you both!

I like the way you think lady - both of you actually!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The article is also a bit confusing by describing a caricature of a hyperneedy person and then going on to talk about normal people being called needy.....

Symbiotic interdependance would be the normal healthy version of a loving adult relationship, but in a lot of relationships there is a giver and a taker, and that can be less healthy.

If you both give equally, it all works.

Haha, how funny - I get the bit you don't get, but you get the bit I don't get!!!

i've gone into silly mode now so it's even funnier now you've said its funny.

worked out ok for me and changed my whole perspective.

but that is why i understand that bit.

Yes, I never felt undeserved but I count myself extremely lucky to have had an amazingly giving lover all through my teens, my first experience was so good it set me up for life

my parents messed me up (my dad mostly), both had different issues but they both set me up for being abused more (and being vulnerable in a bad way, without boundaries).

just one person can change that with their unconditional love, but you have to want it, not even believe you deserve it, just want it and somebody then prove you're worth it. don't think i'd ever have gained a self worth without someone elses input tbh. i loved other people but not myself and that isn't good coz like i said above, it sets you up for being taken advantage of and/or hurt.

i'm glad you never got to experience this, it wasn't good and the experience hasn't really taught me anything, all it did was hold me back. it's like it never happened for me now and i'm a lot happier because of that, a totally different person when it comes to thoughts about myself.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 13/11/16 02:21:10]

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"The article is also a bit confusing by describing a caricature of a hyperneedy person and then going on to talk about normal people being called needy.....

Symbiotic interdependance would be the normal healthy version of a loving adult relationship, but in a lot of relationships there is a giver and a taker, and that can be less healthy.

If you both give equally, it all works.

Haha, how funny - I get the bit you don't get, but you get the bit I don't get!!!

i've gone into silly mode now so it's even funnier now you've said its funny.

worked out ok for me and changed my whole perspective.

but that is why i understand that bit.

Yes, I never felt undeserved but I count myself extremely lucky to have had an amazingly giving lover all through my teens, my first experience was so good it set me up for life

my parents messed me up (my dad mostly), both had different issues but they both set me up for being abused more (and being vulnerable in a bad way, without boundaries).

Now you've got me thinking all about how people learn/gain a feeling or belief in their own self-worth. The idea that someone can teach it through provision of unconditional love, and the idea that our desire for it is enough to tip us over into believing we are worthy of it -- new things for me to think about/read about.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Now you've got me thinking all about how people learn/gain a feeling or belief in their own self-worth. The idea that someone can teach it through provision of unconditional love, and the idea that our desire for it is enough to tip us over into believing we are worthy of it -- new things for me to think about/read about."

i believe it can* happen, obviously, because it happened to me. i do believe the media does cause some mild PTSD in people who believe the evil things it says. i think our societies are purposely put into this state also.

which leads me to; i also believe that society has given us some fucked up ideas.

the first one being hierarchy, and that some people are more worthy than others -this is a lie. this applies to everyone who we believe is worthy of less than ourselves or more than ourselves, this is not based on any reality that makes logical sense.

that parents should always be respected, and so should other authority figures. we are told we shouldn't question them -really bad idea when some authorities are abusive, but this opinion is changing, i've seen it a lot recently now the people control more of the media now.

when we have expectations of others that is when we will fail, yet we have this type of thinking, you can see it. if we generalise everyone into categories and set beliefs based on those categories we will not see that people are individuals that can fail us...and that they are just like us also, **except some are not just like us also.

we become inhuman when we believe all of the above, we start dehumanising some people.

*i don't believe everyone can be saved from self loathing by being loved. some people do not want to change or are not capable but i'm not sure why, even after studying some neurology and psychology.

**even if they are not like us and commit evil acts this doesn't mean they don't deserve the same rights. it does mean we haven't found a way to protect ourselves from them harming us without taking away some of their rights to live freely in our society.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

which leads me to; i also believe that society has given us some fucked up ideas.

we become inhuman when we believe all of the above, we start dehumanising some people.

*i don't believe everyone can be saved from self loathing by being loved. some people do not want to change or are not capable but i'm not sure why, even after studying some neurology and psychology.

Oooh I'm going to definitely have a think about this, and you've reminded me of a talk that's interesting which I need to locate. I'll probably follow up in the morning though, as I should really switch off for a bit! Thank you

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

which leads me to; i also believe that society has given us some fucked up ideas.

we become inhuman when we believe all of the above, we start dehumanising some people.

*i don't believe everyone can be saved from self loathing by being loved. some people do not want to change or are not capable but i'm not sure why, even after studying some neurology and psychology.

look forward to seeing it. night.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

A wonderful thread.

As I'm tired at this wee hour I shall merely interject with the word codependency, and return later

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By *yldstyleWoman over a year ago

A world of my own

I would love to be needy. To be allowed and to feel able to depend on others.

I am very much on my own in this life. There is no circle of support. I'm exhausted and frustrated and very fed up.

Yet if I say that to any one its met with the standard " do I need to come give you a kick up the arse comments"

Funny seems to be the standard response because for some reason I'm not allowed to feel bad! Id really love people to try living my life and dealing with all the stuff I have to without feeling sorry for themselves. Yet I'm just expected to get on with it.

The trouble with appearing to be strong and independent is when you are vulnerable and aren't those things.

Despite that if I fall in love, I fall hard. Yet I'm not clingy unless I feel I'm able to be.

There is a lot of fear and struggle. However the biggest demon is that concept of how we think its meant to be.

As another poster said I'm not sure what my point really is here but maybe some of it will resonate with someone else xx

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

"(Article from the interestingly titled Book of Life)"

The needy are utterly ruthless and dangerous. They will ruin your life. Avoid a all costs. You will find that they are not really there for you at all.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"A wonderful thread.

As I'm tired at this wee hour I shall merely interject with the word codependency, and return later

Haha, a very pertinent word - a symbiosis of two needy people! I wonder what percentage of successful relationships are that at root to some extent,a compatability of need?

I think unconditional love is the cure for most ills, probably even moreso for those who don't want it. In my opinion every human needs it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the article uses the word 'needy' inadvisedly - it carries so much negative association it is almost impossible to think of it in a different light.

But that brings with it a vulnerability, and people who cannot handle that may well find all kinds of rationalisations for pushing someone away.

People reject compliments regularly because they don't think they are worthy of them. Similarly they reject love because they don't feel lovable.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm loving your threads OP!! This one has thrown up allsorts of interesting things to think about. I'll be back.. x

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A wonderful thread.

As I'm tired at this wee hour I shall merely interject with the word codependency, and return later

Oh yeah, of course. Codependence rather that interdependence is a key source of dysfunction in relationships and often underneath abusive relationships, enabling etc....

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"A wonderful thread.

As I'm tired at this wee hour I shall merely interject with the word codependency, and return later

Oh yeah, of course. Codependence rather that interdependence is a key source of dysfunction in relationships and often underneath abusive relationships, enabling etc....

Do you think that is a qualitative or solely quantative difference?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A wonderful thread.

As I'm tired at this wee hour I shall merely interject with the word codependency, and return later

Oh yeah, of course. Codependence rather that interdependence is a key source of dysfunction in relationships and often underneath abusive relationships, enabling etc....

Do you think that is a qualitative or solely quantative difference?"

Don't think I understand your question, can you frame it a bit more?

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"A wonderful thread.

As I'm tired at this wee hour I shall merely interject with the word codependency, and return later

Oh yeah, of course. Codependence rather that interdependence is a key source of dysfunction in relationships and often underneath abusive relationships, enabling etc....

Do you think that is a qualitative or solely quantative difference?"

Quantitative...

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"A wonderful thread.

As I'm tired at this wee hour I shall merely interject with the word codependency, and return later

Oh yeah, of course. Codependence rather that interdependence is a key source of dysfunction in relationships and often underneath abusive relationships, enabling etc....

Do you think that is a qualitative or solely quantative difference?

Don't think I understand your question, can you frame it a bit more?"

Yes, are the codependent simply more needy than the interdependant, is it solely a question of degree, or is their neediness qualitatively different, pathological?

Is there a clear division, or a sliding scale and therefore grey areas? I think the latter.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think there's a sliding scale depending on the developmental centre of gravity, if you like, on the dependence-independence-interdependence continuum.

Adults developmentally within dependence are more likely to suffer codependency issues than those in interdependence, however we have all had experiences that have wounded us that may not be resolved emotionally so it can still occur unconsciously no matter how self-aware we become.

That's my theory anyway....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think there's a sliding scale depending on the developmental centre of gravity, if you like, on the dependence-independence-interdependence continuum.

That's my theory anyway...."

And that could have benefited from more punctuation

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"I think there's a sliding scale depending on the developmental centre of gravity, if you like, on the dependence-independence-interdependence continuum.

That's my theory anyway...."

Yes I would agree. Recent experience has had me pondering the differences between self-worth (self-esteem) and self-love (self-nurture). I have more of the former than the latter which can leave me in a place of dissonance lol!

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

I just wonder if you attract those, that feed off your insecurities, I've always been a head strong woman with loads of confidence and extremely independent but seem to attract men that zap that out of me..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think there's a sliding scale depending on the developmental centre of gravity, if you like, on the dependence-independence-interdependence continuum.

That's my theory anyway....

I think those who are very independent can suffer from this. Their his self-esteem has enabled their independence but self-nurturing is a developmental step further. It means devoting time to nurturing those parts of you that get neglected. I'm getting better at the consistency of my self-nurturing practices but taking the time and making the effort remains a bit of a challenge

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think there's a sliding scale depending on the developmental centre of gravity, if you like, on the dependence-independence-interdependence continuum.

That's my theory anyway....

*high self-esteem

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I just wonder if you attract those, that feed off your insecurities, I've always been a head strong woman with loads of confidence and extremely independent but seem to attract men that zap that out of me..

In a sense I think this does happen. If I have strong nurturing tendencies and helping people is a strength, then we unconsciously may be attracted to those who need help and vice versa. If there is a deep dysfunction in the other person we can end up victims of it rather than helping.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

I think TWD has just hit the nail on the head below!

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

So bloody true so how do you turn it around...

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"I think there's a sliding scale depending on the developmental centre of gravity, if you like, on the dependence-independence-interdependence continuum.

That's my theory anyway....

Yes - I am in the same place! What self-nurturing practices do you practice?

I think your last two posts combine - take an independent empath with poor self-nurturing, and you can find that their search for interdependant relationships repeatedly find them in codependent ones, totally bewildered how they got there again!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So bloody true so how do you turn it around..."

By recognising when our strengths can become overdone, weaknesses if you like but I prefer to see them as overdone strengths, and notice what hooks them. Once we know what hooks them we can control our responses.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

So bloody true so how do you turn it around...

I might just stay single for the rest of my life then

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I would love to be needy. To be allowed and to feel able to depend on others.

I am very much on my own in this life. There is no circle of support. I'm exhausted and frustrated and very fed up.

Yet if I say that to any one its met with the standard " do I need to come give you a kick up the arse comments"

The trouble with appearing to be strong and independent is when you are vulnerable and aren't those things.

Despite that if I fall in love, I fall hard. Yet I'm not clingy unless I feel I'm able to be.

There is a lot of fear and struggle. However the biggest demon is that concept of how we think its meant to be.

As another poster said I'm not sure what my point really is here but maybe some of it will resonate with someone else xx"

I did a class which touched on how we respond to others when they're going through things. So, like grief or depression. Our automatic response is to say things like "it'll get better" and "give it time". When really, we need someone to agree with us and say "that's completely awful, I'm sorry you're feeling that way" and to just listen.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

"I would love to be needy. To be allowed and to feel able to depend on others.

I am very much on my own in this life. There is no circle of support. I'm exhausted and frustrated and very fed up.

Yet if I say that to any one its met with the standard " do I need to come give you a kick up the arse comments"

The trouble with appearing to be strong and independent is when you are vulnerable and aren't those things.

Despite that if I fall in love, I fall hard. Yet I'm not clingy unless I feel I'm able to be.

There is a lot of fear and struggle. However the biggest demon is that concept of how we think its meant to be.

As another poster said I'm not sure what my point really is here but maybe some of it will resonate with someone else xx

I don't bother talking to my friends bar one about the situation as all I get is I told you so and to move on...it doesn't help that they don't understand just how much it has affected me..

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

Estella, it was bit long to quote.

I can tell you how i gained self worth/ belief.

It sounds quite simple but i took myself out my comfortzone. I grew up surrended by violence, my dad was a wife beater i saw it constantly. But i thought that was normal, i went on to have relationships with horrible men which the catalist was meeting super twat. Im not going into detail but he thought he broke me. I stayed as i knew know different from men.

After we split up( a few years later) i went and studied psycology and learnt about comfortzones and realized it was because i knew no different.

I decided to change things which i did, however it took years of retraining my mind to believe in myself. It wasnt easy.

But now years later i truelly believe in myself, i know my worth and i know what i will and wont tollerate. However, i now have my reward in the relationship i have now, he is the polar oppisite to the guys of my younger days and i really love myself.

Im a survivor, also my mum has now been married to a wonderful man for 34 years.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'd already mentioned Brene Brown on another thread, but this Ted talk she did on the power of vulnerability is probably one of the best things I've ever watched.

It's 20 minutes but personally, I found it life changing. I had been through a traumatic break up and it gave me hope. Please give it a watch if you can...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvmsMzlF7o

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I would love to be needy. To be allowed and to feel able to depend on others.

I am very much on my own in this life. There is no circle of support. I'm exhausted and frustrated and very fed up.

Yet if I say that to any one its met with the standard " do I need to come give you a kick up the arse comments"

The trouble with appearing to be strong and independent is when you are vulnerable and aren't those things.

Despite that if I fall in love, I fall hard. Yet I'm not clingy unless I feel I'm able to be.

There is a lot of fear and struggle. However the biggest demon is that concept of how we think its meant to be.

As another poster said I'm not sure what my point really is here but maybe some of it will resonate with someone else xx

I don't bother talking to my friends bar one about the situation as all I get is I told you so and to move on...it doesn't help that they don't understand just how much it has affected me.."

Exactly. I do believe time is a healer but people don't understand that when you leave a relationship, you experience grief. Grief is one of the most powerful experiences and emotions that you encounter.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Estella, it was bit long to quote.

I can tell you how i gained self worth/ belief.

After we split up( a few years later) i went and studied psycology and learnt about comfortzones and realized it was because i knew no different.

I decided to change things which i did, however it took years of retraining my mind to believe in myself. It wasnt easy.

Im a survivor, also my mum has now been married to a wonderful man for 34 years."

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

"I'd already mentioned Brene Brown on another thread, but this Ted talk she did on the power of vulnerability is probably one of the best things I've ever watched.

It's 20 minutes but personally, I found it life changing. I had been through a traumatic break up and it gave me hope. Please give it a watch if you can...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvmsMzlF7o"

Yes, it's a really good one!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So bloody true so how do you turn it around...

I might just stay single for the rest of my life then

Or change your type of men?

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By *rontier PsychiatristMan over a year ago

Coventry

Personally I don't really identify with view. I have in my life been afflicted by needy people. I suppose I don't help my self as I am generous and neutering by nature. I don't want to sound big headed by I fully understand that I am easy to love and to provide emotionally. So for me it's not a problem of not understanding my emotional worth. But I can see for some this statement may be true. I think as I have got older and more jaded my tolerance for needy people has got less. Also I am a busy single parent these days so now anyone who is the slightest needy is a massive turn off. Independent, self sufficient and self assured is the only way for me now.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's NOT your fault. Everyone has insecurities. Sounds like you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and you met him.

I think they see strong women as a challenge. They are so fucked up they get a kick out of fucking other people up. He'd get a bigger kick out of fucking up a strong woman. -No sport with a 'weak' woman.

Try and see it as a compliment. Turn it round in your head. He is the issue, not you.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"A wonderful thread.

As I'm tired at this wee hour I shall merely interject with the word codependency, and return later

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I would love to be needy. To be allowed and to feel able to depend on others.

I am very much on my own in this life. There is no circle of support. I'm exhausted and frustrated and very fed up.

Yet if I say that to any one its met with the standard " do I need to come give you a kick up the arse comments"

The trouble with appearing to be strong and independent is when you are vulnerable and aren't those things.

Despite that if I fall in love, I fall hard. Yet I'm not clingy unless I feel I'm able to be.

There is a lot of fear and struggle. However the biggest demon is that concept of how we think its meant to be.

As another poster said I'm not sure what my point really is here but maybe some of it will resonate with someone else xx"

It resonates, thank you.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"(Article from the interestingly titled Book of Life)

The needy are utterly ruthless and dangerous. They will ruin your life. Avoid a all costs. You will find that they are not really there for you at all. "

Well yes, the group we described as the natural association to the word needy perhaps. But that's missing the nuance of the ideas being generated here surely?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"A wonderful thread.

As I'm tired at this wee hour I shall merely interject with the word codependency, and return later

Haha, a very pertinent word - a symbiosis of two needy people! I wonder what percentage of successful relationships are that at root to some extent,a compatability of need?

I think unconditional love is the cure for most ills, probably even moreso for those who don't want it. In my opinion every human needs it.

Yes! Isn't this a fascinating idea that perhaps matching of need level could balance out -- although I'm drawn back to the dependence to independence to interdependence journey referenced earlier and fear high needy (of the negative association) may simply be two people in dependence states that are yet to be able to dance their interdependence safely? If that even makes sense?!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I'm loving your threads OP!! This one has thrown up allsorts of interesting things to think about. I'll be back.. x"

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think there's a sliding scale depending on the developmental centre of gravity, if you like, on the dependence-independence-interdependence continuum.

That's my theory anyway...."

This rings true to me

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Boom!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I would love to be needy. To be allowed and to feel able to depend on others.

I am very much on my own in this life. There is no circle of support. I'm exhausted and frustrated and very fed up.

Yet if I say that to any one its met with the standard " do I need to come give you a kick up the arse comments"

The trouble with appearing to be strong and independent is when you are vulnerable and aren't those things.

Despite that if I fall in love, I fall hard. Yet I'm not clingy unless I feel I'm able to be.

There is a lot of fear and struggle. However the biggest demon is that concept of how we think its meant to be.

As another poster said I'm not sure what my point really is here but maybe some of it will resonate with someone else xx

Yes, I've done similar within my work context. People need to feel heard in the first instance or they are left continually needing to explain the situation, and the empathy of being with someone in their pain is integral (see the RSA short on empathy versus sympathy by Brene Brown again!)

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Estella, it was bit long to quote.

I can tell you how i gained self worth/ belief.

After we split up( a few years later) i went and studied psycology and learnt about comfortzones and realized it was because i knew no different.

I decided to change things which i did, however it took years of retraining my mind to believe in myself. It wasnt easy.

Im a survivor, also my mum has now been married to a wonderful man for 34 years."

An amazing journey. Thank you

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I'd already mentioned Brene Brown on another thread, but this Ted talk she did on the power of vulnerability is probably one of the best things I've ever watched.

It's 20 minutes but personally, I found it life changing. I had been through a traumatic break up and it gave me hope. Please give it a watch if you can...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvmsMzlF7o"

Brene for the win!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Personally I don't really identify with view. I have in my life been afflicted by needy people. I suppose I don't help my self as I am generous and neutering by nature. I don't want to sound big headed by I fully understand that I am easy to love and to provide emotionally. So for me it's not a problem of not understanding my emotional worth. But I can see for some this statement may be true. I think as I have got older and more jaded my tolerance for needy people has got less. Also I am a busy single parent these days so now anyone who is the slightest needy is a massive turn off. Independent, self sufficient and self assured is the only way for me now. "

Until you find interdependence rather than codependency (or requests for codependency or single neediness in the negative sense) perhaps?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

It's NOT your fault. Everyone has insecurities. Sounds like you were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and you met him.

Try and see it as a compliment. Turn it round in your head. He is the issue, not you. "

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Ooooh just catching up on these and there's some really stimulating ideas. Thank you!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

YES!!!

predators/manipualtors will scope you and ask questions to see how eligible you are as a target to be used and abused. and they will do this covertly so you don't know it's happening.

some might be attracted to your strength, initially, but need to knock it out of you to make themselves feel better.

if you're truly independent and confident you will dump these guys as soon as you realise what is happening.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So bloody true so how do you turn it around...

I might just stay single for the rest of my life then

Or change your type of men?"

almost correct, you change yourself.

you change your boundaries, which probably does mean changing the type of men you go for.

lose sentimentality for those who have abused your trust too. be 'attached' to people but know when to cut those ties, grieve for them people but fuck them off.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

YES!!!

predators/manipualtors will scope you and ask questions to see how eligible you are as a target to be used and abused. and they will do this covertly so you don't know it's happening.

some might be attracted to your strength, initially, but need to knock it out of you to make themselves feel better.

if you're truly independent and confident you will dump these guys as soon as you realise what is happening."

I guess I wasn't so confident when I met him as guys like him have been sent packing before...not sure what happened with him

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The article is also a bit confusing by describing a caricature of a hyperneedy person and then going on to talk about normal people being called needy.....

Symbiotic interdependance would be the normal healthy version of a loving adult relationship, but in a lot of relationships there is a giver and a taker, and that can be less healthy.

If you both give equally, it all works.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

YES!!!

predators/manipualtors will scope you and ask questions to see how eligible you are as a target to be used and abused. and they will do this covertly so you don't know it's happening.

some might be attracted to your strength, initially, but need to knock it out of you to make themselves feel better.

if you're truly independent and confident you will dump these guys as soon as you realise what is happening.

I guess I wasn't so confident when I met him as guys like him have been sent packing before...not sure what happened with him "

no idea for you either there.

hope you work it out. you do deserve the right guy for you who will treat you right and make you feel loved.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The article is also a bit confusing by describing a caricature of a hyperneedy person and then going on to talk about normal people being called needy.....

Symbiotic interdependance would be the normal healthy version of a loving adult relationship, but in a lot of relationships there is a giver and a taker, and that can be less healthy.

If you both give equally, it all works.

Haha, how funny - I get the bit you don't get, but you get the bit I don't get!!!

i've gone into silly mode now so it's even funnier now you've said its funny.

worked out ok for me and changed my whole perspective.

but that is why i understand that bit.

Yes, I never felt undeserved but I count myself extremely lucky to have had an amazingly giving lover all through my teens, my first experience was so good it set me up for life

my parents messed me up (my dad mostly), both had different issues but they both set me up for being abused more (and being vulnerable in a bad way, without boundaries).

Unfortunately I can relate to so many of these points, particularly the negative effect parents can have.

The issue I've identified retrospectively from my childhood is that of been neglected by selfish people. Maybe this is why I find it hard to recognise the signs of flirting/attraction/love. Of course, I can't be sure. However, even now, at the grand old age of 45, it still confuses me and has implications for many aspects of life, many day to day.

The above said, I'm not really sure how this childhood stuff may have influenced my becoming independent. Part of me initially thought that it may have accelerated it, but now I'm not so sure.

This discussion has been very enlightening. Apart from the bits I don't understand, of course

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

This discussion has been very enlightening. Apart from the bits I don't understand, of course

Treasure the questions.....

Truth is NONE of us had perfect parenting, and sometimes it takes a whole lifetime it seems to realise what the upshot was.