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is it time to rebuild Hadrians Wall?
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
 "
Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there."
could it be moved then?  |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there."
we are basically scotland anyway.... and have more in common than with them doon sooth |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Typical English attitude!!!  "
my thoughts extley
why vote for folk an they moan about it |
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Dont think walls are the answer.
But, if the SNP now push for a referendum and its carried etc lots will change in that lovely part of this country.
Funding from Westminster may well be one major factor if the Scottish Parliament has full tax raising powers. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
"
Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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the SNP has done a brilliant job keeping Scotland moving
only certain areas we cant get rid of the other party's like were i am its always has been labor hold no matter what vote i out in, |
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there."
How about the Antonine Wall then?  |
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place. "
It was nice of the Welsh to run off though, made it easy for the Romans to call on us English in Germany to defend them against invaders! |
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By *aucy3Couple
over a year ago
glasgow |
"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there.
How about the Antonine Wall then? "
thats not a wall,its only a dyke to keep boys balls,out of the garden.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there.
How about the Antonine Wall then? "
Now your really gonna confuse em.
Anyway, I thought the only intellegent folk from your part of the country came from Heywood.  |
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By *LBishCouple
over a year ago
near bury st edmunds |
Deffinatly. Only this time with a 50ft electric fence, a very large minefield to the North of it and MG towers every half mile
But seriously, i don't know about the Scottish and welsh voting for independance, i think the English should have a referendum on ending the Union. We have given up the rest of our Empire, might as well let these two parts go there own way. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there.
How about the Antonine Wall then?
Now your really gonna confuse em.
Anyway, I thought the only intellegent folk from your part of the country came from Heywood. "
Did you notice how I spelt intelligent? That was for the benefit of the Gauls. |
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there.
How about the Antonine Wall then?
Now your really gonna confuse em.
Anyway, I thought the only intellegent folk from your part of the country came from Heywood. "
Now you've got that wrong, Heywood is the only part of the area where the locals have tails.... (local joke content) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Don't know about rebuilding the wall, but why shouldn't we have the government we voted for at last?....after all we suffered at the hands of Thatcher & co for years because the English voted for her!!!
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"Don't know about rebuilding the wall, but why shouldn't we have the government we voted for at last?....after all we suffered at the hands of Thatcher & co for years because the English voted for her!!!
"
Did we? What percentage of the English voted for her? I certainly never did.
Independence for the South East!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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independance will never happen
if if if if if
we were clever when we found our oil - then way other story - but no we said just take it n walk all over us
alex is an arsehole
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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in fact amusing note about alex
he was in my wee town doing some opening blah blah pish
but on the same day the real radio was in town with its fugitive -
for folks not in the know a guy from the radio walks around town - if ya find him and ask - are you the real radio fugitive - you win a cash prize
alex salmond had loads o folks and wee neds running up to him asking are you the real radio fugitive
cos no one knows who you are ya faaaaannnny
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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As all politicians are or end up as useless, corrupt, lying, twats makes little bloody difference who we are governed by!!
Why not stick all their heads on top of the wall, that would put an end to immigration & emigration |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Now you've got that wrong, Heywood is the only part of the area where the locals have tails.... (local joke content)"
I know, I`m a MONKEY, and I have my own barstool to prove it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
"
It might be really good if we do. The amount the south subsidizes Scotland by is scandalous.  |
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By *aucy3Couple
over a year ago
glasgow |
"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
It might be really good if we do. The amount the south subsidizes Scotland by is scandalous. "
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahaha hahaha ha ha ha ha.
ha ha ha hahahaha haha ha ha.good yin. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
It might be really good if we do. The amount the south subsidizes Scotland by is scandalous. "
. Don't get your logic here. Scotland actually pays the Westminster government way more than it receives back. Has done for years. It's part of the reason Independence is becoming such a viable idea |
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" Don't get your logic here. Scotland actually pays the Westminster government way more than it receives back. Has done for years. "
dont think the supply of an ex PM and other cabinet ministers under the previous government counts as payment to westminster ... so please explain? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Deffinatly. Only this time with a 50ft electric fence, a very large minefield to the North of it and MG towers every half mile
But seriously, i don't know about the Scottish and welsh voting for independance, i think the English should have a referendum on ending the Union. We have given up the rest of our Empire, might as well let these two parts go there own way."
.
Spot on I would vote yes to that |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Don't get your logic here. Scotland actually pays the Westminster government way more than it receives back. Has done for years.
dont think the supply of an ex PM and other cabinet ministers under the previous government counts as payment to westminster ... so please explain?"
. Why would two consecutive PMs and Cabinet Ministers be thought of as of monetary value? Scotland sends more to Westminster via taxes from population and businesses and other revenue than it gets back. It's a long held fallacy that England supports Scotland: a check of monetary payments makes this clear. This inequality is at the base of the movement in Scotland for Independence. Why WOULD a 'non-viable' country seek to separate from its 'mighty benefactor'? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Deffinatly. Only this time with a 50ft electric fence, a very large minefield to the North of it and MG towers every half mile
But seriously, i don't know about the Scottish and welsh voting for independance, i think the English should have a referendum on ending the Union. We have given up the rest of our Empire, might as well let these two parts go there own way..
Spot on I would vote yes to that "
. Lol think you will find England didn't decide to give up any Empire . The countries etc decided that for themselves. |
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By *drianukMan
over a year ago
Spain, Lancs |
It would save us a fortune if they went. Can't think how they'd manage without all the subsidy.
We should tell them that we don't want them to go but that if they do go they are on their own.
We'd give them RBS as a leaving gift! |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place. "
Is this a bid for the historical bollocks of the week prize? |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"Deffinatly. Only this time with a 50ft electric fence, a very large minefield to the North of it and MG towers every half mile
But seriously, i don't know about the Scottish and welsh voting for independance, i think the English should have a referendum on ending the Union. We have given up the rest of our Empire, might as well let these two parts go there own way."
Byker is enough of a minefield as it is without you adding to it... |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place.
It was nice of the Welsh to run off though, made it easy for the Romans to call on us English in Germany to defend them against invaders!"
Yet more ahistorical bollocks - you lot aren't covering yourselves in glory here...
Here's a clue - the word 'Welsh' dodn;t come into use until the 7th or 8th centuries. Place name studies always help as well - if you're in Rochdale you might be intrigued by Eccles having a place name that comes from the Cymraeg for church - how did that happen (since the British church is a fourth century development) if the British had fled? Scots nationalists might like to play similar games with place names Ecclefechan, Dumfries, Dunedin (used as a Latin name for Edinburgh) and numerous others...
Advanced readers might want to tackle Gildas and wonder who the British kings who imported the saxons as mercenaries were, if the British had all fled to what the English now call Wales? |
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place.
It was nice of the Welsh to run off though, made it easy for the Romans to call on us English in Germany to defend them against invaders!
Yet more ahistorical bollocks - you lot aren't covering yourselves in glory here...
Here's a clue - the word 'Welsh' dodn;t come into use until the 7th or 8th centuries. Place name studies always help as well - if you're in Rochdale you might be intrigued by Eccles having a place name that comes from the Cymraeg for church - how did that happen (since the British church is a fourth century development) if the British had fled? Scots nationalists might like to play similar games with place names Ecclefechan, Dumfries, Dunedin (used as a Latin name for Edinburgh) and numerous others...
Advanced readers might want to tackle Gildas and wonder who the British kings who imported the saxons as mercenaries were, if the British had all fled to what the English now call Wales?"
Calm down dear, it was a joke!
Welsh is a corruption of the old English word Walesch (probably pronounced with a Germanic 'V' sound)
Whilst many Britons did reatreat into what is now Wales with the increasing encroachment of the Angles and Saxons many simply were absorbed into the new Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex, East Anglia, Middle Anglia, Kent, Hwicce, Sussex, Essex etc.
With the retreat of the Empire the existing Romano-Britons (along with their less 'Romanised' subjects) did invite Germanic mercenaries to help defend the land against other Germanic raiders such as the Jutes etc. Even in Britannia Inferior the client rulers had effectively been de-militarised and so needed to import such a dangerous idea.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I normally stay away from political threads, but I find the op's opening post, really offensive. I havent read any of the other posts, really dont want to send my blood pressure soaring at this time of the morning!
This is my _iews, and mine alone, the SNP are a bunch of gobshite f**kwits! Alex Salmond is a smary git and Nicola Sturgeon has a face that I would NEVER tire of punching....again and again and again.
Did the SNP win the SPE on policies?
I dont think think so.
Did they win because people are sick to the back teeth of Labour? Or because after the mess of the coalition goverment the LD may as well give up on politics?
So who was left to vote for? No one, so who did people vote for, yip the SNP. Me personally I spoiled my ballot paper, I believe, that if you are registered to vote, you should vote, or be fined, and since there is no abstain option (which I believe there should be), I chose to vote for no one.
Do I believe in or want Independence? NO! When the referendum is held, I will be putting a big X next to no. Not because I cant stand the SNP, but because I believe in the United Kingdom!
Think ive babbled on enough and I really need another coffee.......
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By *LBishCouple
over a year ago
near bury st edmunds |
Pewrsonally, i don't give a damn about who would be better off if we broke up the Union. I just want to go back to being proud of being English. Be allowed to fly our own flag, have our own National Anthem.
We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Just read all the threads, I knew I shouldnt.
Loving the anti Scottish/Welsh tone of it.
What about those of Northern Ireland or has it been forgetten that they have their own assembly? That way you can stick the boot into everyone.
Me, im proud of my SCOTTISH heritage and history. But always 1st and foremost im proud to be BRITISH.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Pewrsonally, i don't give a damn about who would be better off if we broke up the Union. I just want to go back to being proud of being English. Be allowed to fly our own flag, have our own National Anthem.
We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again."
. Eh, England didn't 'defeat the Scotts'. The Union was voted for by a 'Pairsel of Rogues' to serve their own skins after bankrupting themselves on Darien and being effectively bribed by England and, if I remember right- did England not run out of kings and queens? Was James sixth not Scottish? |
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"Pewrsonally, i don't give a damn about who would be better off if we broke up the Union. I just want to go back to being proud of being English. Be allowed to fly our own flag, have our own National Anthem.
We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again.. Eh, England didn't 'defeat the Scotts'. The Union was voted for by a 'Pairsel of Rogues' to serve their own skins after bankrupting themselves on Darien and being effectively bribed by England and, if I remember right- did England not run out of kings and queens? Was James sixth not Scottish?"
In fairness, whilst the Scots Nobility did bankrupt themselves over the Darien Affair, the English Govt did all it could to accentuate the process - the 'Rough Wooing' i believe it was called?
Jimmy VI/I was indeed a Scots Stuart and as soon as he was offered the English Throne he ran South and never went back! From what i have read he didn't like the Scots veery much for some reason, could have been to do with the way they treated his mother though. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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God I love FAB Forums. From 'fancy a shag' to analysis and debate of Anglo/Scottish/Celtic history. Magnificent. Anyone seen a Spanish speaking, Irish mercenary?  |
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"Pewrsonally, i don't give a damn about who would be better off if we broke up the Union. I just want to go back to being proud of being English. Be allowed to fly our own flag, have our own National Anthem.
We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again.. Eh, England didn't 'defeat the Scotts'. The Union was voted for by a 'Pairsel of Rogues' to serve their own skins after bankrupting themselves on Darien and being effectively bribed by England and, if I remember right- did England not run out of kings and queens? Was James sixth not Scottish?"
You know what's always puzzled me?
The way the Jacobite Wars have been spun into an Anglo-Scottish conflict. It was really a Scottish Civil War that took in part of England and the English body politic.
3/4 of all the troops at Culloden were Scots...
I know a chap who is a Scottish re-enactor of the C17/C18th period. He often upsets his Scots audiences whe he tells them that the worst enemy the Scots ever had were other Scots!
And don't get him started on the 'Braveheart was a documentary crowd' at Bannockburn etc! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Lol this post has to be the funniest I have read for a while. We are all Jock Tamsons' bairns and should all get on together regardless. It's the pc brigade that drive me nuts more than anything. |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Tshhhh, if you lot had stood yer ground n` not shit mud huts before running off into the Welsh mountains, the Romans wouldn`t have had the need to build it to protect themselves in the first place.
It was nice of the Welsh to run off though, made it easy for the Romans to call on us English in Germany to defend them against invaders!
Yet more ahistorical bollocks - you lot aren't covering yourselves in glory here...
Here's a clue - the word 'Welsh' dodn;t come into use until the 7th or 8th centuries. Place name studies always help as well - if you're in Rochdale you might be intrigued by Eccles having a place name that comes from the Cymraeg for church - how did that happen (since the British church is a fourth century development) if the British had fled? Scots nationalists might like to play similar games with place names Ecclefechan, Dumfries, Dunedin (used as a Latin name for Edinburgh) and numerous others...
Advanced readers might want to tackle Gildas and wonder who the British kings who imported the saxons as mercenaries were, if the British had all fled to what the English now call Wales?
Calm down dear, it was a joke!
Welsh is a corruption of the old English word Walesch (probably pronounced with a Germanic 'V' sound)
Whilst many Britons did reatreat into what is now Wales with the increasing encroachment of the Angles and Saxons many simply were absorbed into the new Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex, East Anglia, Middle Anglia, Kent, Hwicce, Sussex, Essex etc.
With the retreat of the Empire the existing Romano-Britons (along with their less 'Romanised' subjects) did invite Germanic mercenaries to help defend the land against other Germanic raiders such as the Jutes etc. Even in Britannia Inferior the client rulers had effectively been de-militarised and so needed to import such a dangerous idea.
"
Not sure where you cut and pasted this parcel of bullshit from but the word you're looking for is wealas - it's the old saxon word for foreigner.
You're right about the persistence of the British in the Germanic kingdoms, and their civilizing influence on the saxons who were little better than thugs, but that's a long way from the dim assertion up thread somewhere that the British fled when the Romans arrived - the joy of the Dream of Macsen Wledig is not that a Roman Emperor was British, but that in fourth century Rome being British was a heritage you'd boast of. |
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Not going to link as it's too long but there are many spelling variations of the origins of the modern word Welsh and yours is just one of them - Foreigner/other/outsider are all approximations of the meaning.
As for the English/Germanic peoples being 'thugs' you do realise that there were more than a few Germans (including Angles) who sreved in positions of High Command in the armies of the Later Roman Empire during the C4th? Not really something an un-educated and brutish 'thug' could have done, especially when put against the distaste the Romans had for those they considered Barbarian?
Men like Callistus/Ballista who served as Praetorian Prefect and Prefect of Cavalry in the East against the Sassanids,where he defeated the Persians at Soli.
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"Not going to link as it's too long but there are many spelling variations of the origins of the modern word Welsh and yours is just one of them - Foreigner/other/outsider are all approximations of the meaning.
As for the English/Germanic peoples being 'thugs' you do realise that there were more than a few Germans (including Angles) who sreved in positions of High Command in the armies of the Later Roman Empire during the C4th? Not really something an un-educated and brutish 'thug' could have done, especially when put against the distaste the Romans had for those they considered Barbarian?
Men like Callistus/Ballista who served as Praetorian Prefect and Prefect of Cavalry in the East against the Sassanids,where he defeated the Persians at Soli.
"
This being the interweb I must of course bow to your assertion as if it has some considerable academic merit. I've been reading and studying this stuff for over twenty years and I've never encountered your spelling of the word, whereas the spelling I use is good enough for Rollason, GA Williams, John Morris, Francis Pryor and the like.
As for your assertion about some Germans being very nice chaps who did sterling work for Rome, yes, that's true. I imagine they weren't the kind of chaps who ended up being hired as mercenaries to fight off pirates on the British coast, or who repaid their employers by breaking their contracts and turning on them...
So calling them little better than thugs is a fair shout, and was good enough for Gildas... |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"Pewrsonally, i don't give a damn about who would be better off if we broke up the Union. I just want to go back to being proud of being English. Be allowed to fly our own flag, have our own National Anthem.
We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again."
What would you like as a national anthem?
Incidentally, the Tudors were Welsh - as ever, we won without you even knowing it. |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"..And Gildas was not at all somewhat biased in his accounts of the time?"
He's significantly closer to events than you or I, so unless you've invented the retrospectoscope you can only accuse him of bias by filtering his account through your cultural biasses. There is absolutely bog all evidence that the saxons were anything other than a bunch of thugs who got lucky - even the Hengist and Horsa myth is evidence for the proposition that they weren't very good at lying and were too stupid to even make up a good alibi for their crimes. |
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Also, the Germanic invitees were often promised land in return for their military service as well you know, just as retiring Legionaries were.
Can you really blame peoples like the Angles/Saxons/Jutes etc who were under pressure from Eastern European tribes for seeing a rich and undefended land ready for the taking?
It was a time whe might meant all, if you couldn't hold your land you lost it - exactly as the Angles and Saxons did against their Danish cousins a couple of centuries later. |
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"..And Gildas was not at all somewhat biased in his accounts of the time?
He's significantly closer to events than you or I, so unless you've invented the retrospectoscope you can only accuse him of bias by filtering his account through your cultural biasses. There is absolutely bog all evidence that the saxons were anything other than a bunch of thugs who got lucky - even the Hengist and Horsa myth is evidence for the proposition that they weren't very good at lying and were too stupid to even make up a good alibi for their crimes."
All of the writers had ulterior motives, this you know. To baldly state that ALL the Germanic peoples who came over to be thugs is to over-simplify to a ridiculous level and you know it. It does seem as though you have some cultural bias yourself when it comes to this subject, which as you claim to have studied this for two decades you should be on the lookout for.
The Germanic peoples were a warrior race that's true. That they were little more than ignorant thugs is to deny their art, their culture, their artisanship and their complex religion, they were just as advanced as as complex a people as the native Britons, how could they have taken the land if the Britons had been so superior?
The fact that they held onto their lands in the face of Roman expansionism, and were later Commanders of Roman Imperial Troops shows how they were much more than the simple barbarian thugs you wish to see them as. |
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"Pewrsonally, i don't give a damn about who would be better off if we broke up the Union. I just want to go back to being proud of being English. Be allowed to fly our own flag, have our own National Anthem.
We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again.
What would you like as a national anthem?
Incidentally, the Tudors were Welsh - as ever, we won without you even knowing it."
Hmm, given that Henry VII was also descended from the House of Beaufort and the marriage of John of Gaunt to Katherine Swynford and that Owen Tudor only rose to prominence through his (possibly illegal) marriage to Catherine De Valois you could equally say he was as much Anglo-Norman as much as Welsh.
His most famous descendents being Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were also the ones who had the Plantagenet gene, red hair and foul temper from their mother. In fact if you look at portraits of Henry VII you can see a stunning resemblance to his grandfather Edward IV. |
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
Since there's sixty miles of England to the north of it, including my house, you may have revealed a certain geographical and historical weakness on your part there."
i'd quite like to see you answer the purpose of visit question at border control when you came to tynedale |
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By *umpkinMan
over a year ago
near the sounds of the wimborne quarter jack! |
"......................
Whilst many Britons did reatreat into what is now Wales with the increasing encroachment of the Angles and Saxons many simply were absorbed into the new Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of Mercia .......etc"
Don`t forget the English people who escaped to Wales, North Wales if my history serves me correctly, to escape the Black Death which entered Britain through the port of Weymouth and spread up the the Cranbourne Chase area of Dorset and Wiltshire. It wasn`t just wars that pushed the populations around. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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My tutor in Scots Medieval History asked the question "Did the Normans invade Scotland?". As the majority of people at the time were the commoners, there was very little change for them. Only in the upper echelons would there have been any noticeable difference and we concluded that far from being taken over by invaders, customs etc were assimilated. Shades of the Borg here! lol |
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One thing few people have noticed is that the Labour Party must be terrified - if Scotland became an independent country it would mean there would never be a Labour government in England ever again.
As I undertand it I think that the decision to have a referendum will be one for the Westminster Parliament - the UK Parliament can abolish the Scots parliament.
David Cameron should call Alex Salmond's bluff and say "OK then we'll have a referendum not when you want it Alex - but now in six month's time the UK doesn't need 4 or 5 years of posturing or posing or uncertainty let's get the issue settled" |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Let's face it. The problems of lawful or righteous accession in Scotland and the strife that resulted from it was not new at the time and is nothing new even now.
For Balliol and Bruce read;
Solomon and Adonijah indirectly leading to the fragmentation and defeat of the Kingdom of Israel.
Diarmait Mac Murchada and Ruaidri mac Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair indirectly leading to Norman settlement and subsequent English involvement in Ireland.
Virtually anyone from any of the Roman Empires
The Anschluss - different circumstances similar results.
Virtually any dispute in the Balkans including the most recent Serbo-Croat hostilities.
And perhaps even the latest troubles in Bahrain thereby leading to Saudi Arabia being invited in.
The common denominator in all of these examples is human nature. Specifically; personal self interest, greed, megalomania, political and military expediency, ego. Nationalism [the last refuge of the scoundrel?]has rarely been a major factor although it usually the reason [or smokescreen] that all the dubious characters involved have expounded to achieve their aims. Add to the mix murder, matricide, patricide, fratricide, infanticide, incest, nepotism, marriages of convenience, dissolutions of convenience, gunboat [or Longboat] diplomacy, duplicity/diplomacy and there, in a nut shell, I would suggest, you have every nations history.
As the song says 'If you know your history.......'
If you don't use T'Interweb like me  'Tis a wondrous thing.
PS Bruce was a sneaky toadying b'stard who got his come uppance but sacrificed his peoples sovereignty in the process.......in my very humble opinion
[Places shield above head and retires from the field under cover of darkness] |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"His most famous descendents being Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were also the ones who had the Plantagenet gene, red hair and foul temper from their mother. In fact if you look at portraits of Henry VII you can see a stunning resemblance to his grandfather Edward IV."
"Oh, war, war, war (fight, fight, fight!) That's all you ever think of, Dickie Plantagenet!" |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If war where to ever breakout between Enland and Scotland(and not talking about wembley) ..then I hope it's like a reinactment of Braveheart...although without the yanks !! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"now the SNP are angling for independence is it not time to finish what the roman's started?
It might be really good if we do. The amount the south subsidizes Scotland by is scandalous. . Don't get your logic here. Scotland actually pays the Westminster government way more than it receives back. Has done for years. It's part of the reason Independence is becoming such a viable idea "
What a load of crap! England has and still is subsidising Scotland. More unemployment, more health issues, a higher drain on the economy. England would be far far better without Scotland. Also Ireland and Wales. It was a big mistake our ancestors crossing the wall and this is what we get for conquering and fucking all them jock women. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I find that quite offensive. May I suggest you research your economic information a little better before rehashing this rubbish? Just because a handful of English say it's so, quite loudly, doesn't make it so. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I find that quite offensive. May I suggest you research your economic information a little better before rehashing this rubbish? Just because a handful of English say it's so, quite loudly, doesn't make it so. "
From the BBC website;
"The dread phrase 'Barnett formula' shall issue forth and ancient argument and enmity shall flow.
The formula is used to calculate how much UK money should be allocated to Scotland - a complex sum that results in Scotland receiving more public cash per head than the English.
However, Mr Salmond claims that the arithmetic is unfair because money for the London Olympics, prison building and police and fire service costs are not included in the computation.
Some creative maths arrives at a total owing of 963 million. Throw in a bit for Auld Lang Syne and you get the justification for the Scottish government's request for a one billion pound reflationary package".
As with most things - shades of grey depending on the statistics you use or believe. |
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"His most famous descendents being Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were also the ones who had the Plantagenet gene, red hair and foul temper from their mother. In fact if you look at portraits of Henry VII you can see a stunning resemblance to his grandfather Edward IV.
"Oh, war, war, war (fight, fight, fight!) That's all you ever think of, Dickie Plantagenet!" "
Well, i AM a medieval re-enactor specialising in the Wars of the Roses!!
Would be a bit boring if we couldn't wallop each other every other weekend!
P.S. Yes, the Scots were involved in that too! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I find that quite offensive. May I suggest you research your economic information a little better before rehashing this rubbish? Just because a handful of English say it's so, quite loudly, doesn't make it so.
From the BBC website;
"The dread phrase 'Barnett formula' shall issue forth and ancient argument and enmity shall flow.
The formula is used to calculate how much UK money should be allocated to Scotland - a complex sum that results in Scotland receiving more public cash per head than the English.
However, Mr Salmond claims that the arithmetic is unfair because money for the London Olympics, prison building and police and fire service costs are not included in the computation.
Some creative maths arrives at a total owing of 963 million. Throw in a bit for Auld Lang Syne and you get the justification for the Scottish government's request for a one billion pound reflationary package".
As with most things - shades of grey depending on the statistics you use or believe."
. It's truly said there are lies, damned lies and statistics . However, the point being made was that Scotland gets out more than it pays in. THAT's the bit that's wrong. Remember too, as far s the Barnett stuff goes, Scotland's a. Much more rural country than England, with the expense that entails |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"..And Gildas was not at all somewhat biased in his accounts of the time?
He's significantly closer to events than you or I, so unless you've invented the retrospectoscope you can only accuse him of bias by filtering his account through your cultural biasses. There is absolutely bog all evidence that the saxons were anything other than a bunch of thugs who got lucky - even the Hengist and Horsa myth is evidence for the proposition that they weren't very good at lying and were too stupid to even make up a good alibi for their crimes.
All of the writers had ulterior motives, this you know. To baldly state that ALL the Germanic peoples who came over to be thugs is to over-simplify to a ridiculous level and you know it. It does seem as though you have some cultural bias yourself when it comes to this subject, which as you claim to have studied this for two decades you should be on the lookout for.
The Germanic peoples were a warrior race that's true. That they were little more than ignorant thugs is to deny their art, their culture, their artisanship and their complex religion, they were just as advanced as as complex a people as the native Britons, how could they have taken the land if the Britons had been so superior?
The fact that they held onto their lands in the face of Roman expansionism, and were later Commanders of Roman Imperial Troops shows how they were much more than the simple barbarian thugs you wish to see them as."
Of course, my cultural biasses are completely unknown to me, whereas yours are non existent. Catch yourself on. You've deliberately conflated the small time thugs who destroyed the ruling families of Britain with serious Roman figures from Germany as if they were one and the same. They weren't.
Of course Gildas had a motive; he was literate, a Christian and a product of a society rich enough to employ teachers, poets, scribes and priests. The saxons delivered a wilderness, the cultural equivalent of allowing football hooligans loose in a library. His grief, and his anger at the Britons who allowed this to happen drips from every line of his writing. It doesn't make him an unreliable historian however, and it doesn't make him a liar. In that respect you're almost certainly guilty of anachronism, of assuming Gildas would be as unreliable as modern historians can be when they produce propaganda as history.
As for your question about how the saxons succeeded, it's as obvious as your non existent biasses. The British had enjoyed four centuries as cadet members of the Roman world; they were used to a complex division of labour, a money economy where soldiers, and their loyalty to the Roman system, could be bought. The breakdown of the Roman system left them naked before a deluge. That they lasted as long as they did was a minor miracle.
One final thought; if the saxon pagan religion was so complex and valuable, how were they so easily converted to christianity? |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"......................
Whilst many Britons did reatreat into what is now Wales with the increasing encroachment of the Angles and Saxons many simply were absorbed into the new Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms of Mercia .......etc
Don`t forget the English people who escaped to Wales, North Wales if my history serves me correctly, to escape the Black Death which entered Britain through the port of Weymouth and spread up the the Cranbourne Chase area of Dorset and Wiltshire. It wasn`t just wars that pushed the populations around."
Little England is generally defined as the area around Tenby, although these days you find whiny scouse pensioners all along the Costa Geriatrica in the north, and all sorts of English political reprobates acting as white settlers in mid wales. |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"Pewrsonally, i don't give a damn about who would be better off if we broke up the Union. I just want to go back to being proud of being English. Be allowed to fly our own flag, have our own National Anthem.
We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again.
What would you like as a national anthem?
Incidentally, the Tudors were Welsh - as ever, we won without you even knowing it.
Hmm, given that Henry VII was also descended from the House of Beaufort and the marriage of John of Gaunt to Katherine Swynford and that Owen Tudor only rose to prominence through his (possibly illegal) marriage to Catherine De Valois you could equally say he was as much Anglo-Norman as much as Welsh.
His most famous descendents being Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were also the ones who had the Plantagenet gene, red hair and foul temper from their mother. In fact if you look at portraits of Henry VII you can see a stunning resemblance to his grandfather Edward IV."
So were the Tudors Welsh or not? Only, Tudor is a Welsh name, and the Tudors clung to it, and their heritage. |
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It does seem there is a strong current of anti-English, anti-Saxon venom in your somewhat revisionist historical _iewpoints.
The Foederati were hired to defend a land gone soft and dependent on its Imperial rulers for defence, what use are poets when the world is crashing down around you?
To claim the Germanic peoples brought a cultural wilderness is simply ignorant and betrays your bias. Just because a different culture came, does not make it any less than the one that existed amongst the Britons.
Are you honestly stating that the Angles/Jutes/Saxons had no art, no poetry, no artisanship, no learning and no culture?
These people had a complex system of law, one that still shows in our system today, hardly the mark of barbarians.
I think you are allowing your - quite obvious - distaste for anything culturally not Welsh that you are deliberately closing your eyes to it.
Your post about English political reprobates shows your bigotry quite openly i think.
History is not open to interpretation thats for sure but if you - as you claim - are a student of such you have a duty to approach the subject with an open mind.
As for Christianity, did the 'English' as they became very quickly adopt the faith? Did they adopt it any quicker than the native Britons who also had a rich and intricate belief system?
All we have to do is look at how Christianity is different in different parts of the British Isles and we see that it incorporates certain cultural traits from the original pagan peoples - Easter is a case in point, being the festival of Eostre (sp?) the Saxon goddess of fertility. These signs show us that Christianity was absorbed fairly slowly over a matter of decades, even centuries by both the Anglo -Saxons and the Britons.
|
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"Pewrsonally, i don't give a damn about who would be better off if we broke up the Union. I just want to go back to being proud of being English. Be allowed to fly our own flag, have our own National Anthem.
We managed for centriues well enough before we defeated the welsh and then Scotts, i am sure we can manage without them again.
What would you like as a national anthem?
Incidentally, the Tudors were Welsh - as ever, we won without you even knowing it.
Hmm, given that Henry VII was also descended from the House of Beaufort and the marriage of John of Gaunt to Katherine Swynford and that Owen Tudor only rose to prominence through his (possibly illegal) marriage to Catherine De Valois you could equally say he was as much Anglo-Norman as much as Welsh.
His most famous descendents being Henry VIII and Elizabeth I were also the ones who had the Plantagenet gene, red hair and foul temper from their mother. In fact if you look at portraits of Henry VII you can see a stunning resemblance to his grandfather Edward IV.
So were the Tudors Welsh or not? Only, Tudor is a Welsh name, and the Tudors clung to it, and their heritage."
They did, but the claim to the throne was through the English line was it not?
If the 'Welsh' won as you claimed above, why were the Laws in Wales Acts put through by that scion of Wales Henry VIII? |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"It does seem there is a strong current of anti-English, anti-Saxon venom in your somewhat revisionist historical _iewpoints.
The Foederati were hired to defend a land gone soft and dependent on its Imperial rulers for defence, what use are poets when the world is crashing down around you?
To claim the Germanic peoples brought a cultural wilderness is simply ignorant and betrays your bias. Just because a different culture came, does not make it any less than the one that existed amongst the Britons.
Are you honestly stating that the Angles/Jutes/Saxons had no art, no poetry, no artisanship, no learning and no culture?
These people had a complex system of law, one that still shows in our system today, hardly the mark of barbarians.
I think you are allowing your - quite obvious - distaste for anything culturally not Welsh that you are deliberately closing your eyes to it.
Your post about English political reprobates shows your bigotry quite openly i think.
History is not open to interpretation thats for sure but if you - as you claim - are a student of such you have a duty to approach the subject with an open mind.
As for Christianity, did the 'English' as they became very quickly adopt the faith? Did they adopt it any quicker than the native Britons who also had a rich and intricate belief system?
All we have to do is look at how Christianity is different in different parts of the British Isles and we see that it incorporates certain cultural traits from the original pagan peoples - Easter is a case in point, being the festival of Eostre (sp?) the Saxon goddess of fertility. These signs show us that Christianity was absorbed fairly slowly over a matter of decades, even centuries by both the Anglo -Saxons and the Britons.
"
You want to defend scum like Nick Griffin acting as white settlers in Wales? Rumour has it he's had a fireproof letterbox fitted in case Meibion come calling... |
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Also, if these 'thugs' were so 'small time' as you so obviously wish to believe, how did they defeat these great ruling families of the Britons, with all their wealth and ability to hire fighting men? |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"It does seem there is a strong current of anti-English, anti-Saxon venom in your somewhat revisionist historical _iewpoints.
The Foederati were hired to defend a land gone soft and dependent on its Imperial rulers for defence, what use are poets when the world is crashing down around you?
To claim the Germanic peoples brought a cultural wilderness is simply ignorant and betrays your bias. Just because a different culture came, does not make it any less than the one that existed amongst the Britons.
Are you honestly stating that the Angles/Jutes/Saxons had no art, no poetry, no artisanship, no learning and no culture?
These people had a complex system of law, one that still shows in our system today, hardly the mark of barbarians.
I think you are allowing your - quite obvious - distaste for anything culturally not Welsh that you are deliberately closing your eyes to it.
Your post about English political reprobates shows your bigotry quite openly i think.
History is not open to interpretation thats for sure but if you - as you claim - are a student of such you have a duty to approach the subject with an open mind.
As for Christianity, did the 'English' as they became very quickly adopt the faith? Did they adopt it any quicker than the native Britons who also had a rich and intricate belief system?
All we have to do is look at how Christianity is different in different parts of the British Isles and we see that it incorporates certain cultural traits from the original pagan peoples - Easter is a case in point, being the festival of Eostre (sp?) the Saxon goddess of fertility. These signs show us that Christianity was absorbed fairly slowly over a matter of decades, even centuries by both the Anglo -Saxons and the Britons.
"
So you believe Bede's dubious line on Eostre but not Gildas? I think it's your cultural biasses that are showing.
Incidentally am not bigotted against the English, but I do think that a provocative line has to be taken to highlight the bollocks that is written in the name of creating a fake English history. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Whiny scouse pensioners", "white settlers", "Nick Griffin". Hmmm. Interesting statements and references from an historian. Not to mention an apparent approval of arson with intent to endanger life. And you bemoan the lack of culture in the Anglo Saxons. I would suggest that this type of rhetoric is more suited to a red top tabloid journalist. Pity because as a debate it was going quite well. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If Scotlands such a burden, why do the London party's all want to keep hold of Scotland? That degenerate Cameron was saying he'd fight tooth and nail against a Independance referendum. |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"Explain where i said anything about Nick Griffin?
You seem to be getting a little confused now."
You objected to my referring to English political reprobates who have settled in Wales. I referred to him, and you bit. |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
""Whiny scouse pensioners", "white settlers", "Nick Griffin". Hmmm. Interesting statements and references from an historian. Not to mention an apparent approval of arson with intent to endanger life. And you bemoan the lack of culture in the Anglo Saxons. I would suggest that this type of rhetoric is more suited to a red top tabloid journalist. Pity because as a debate it was going quite well."
Are you criticizing me for sympathizing with Meibion Glyndwr? Bring it on... Local homes for ,local people is a nationwide issue in the rural Uk where second home owners drive out local people.
As for scum like Griffin, it's quite simple. He wants to play at being a fascist - like his predecessors in the UK, he has to accept that he might reap the whirlwind. |
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
"A fake English history?
Like the Mapinogion perhaps?
"
It's spelled Mabinogion. If you have evidence that it is 'fake' it had better be stronger evidence than you provided for for your claim that wealas and Walesch are the same.
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By *waymanMan
over a year ago
newcastle |
In amongst this heap of bollocks is an intersting idea.
After the treason of the saxons, rebelling against their employers, Britain became part of a north sea economy. One hundred years on from the events Gildas describes there was an established trade route between Northern Germany / Denmark and Britain built upon the crimes of the Saxon mercenaries. Using this as evidence for the assertion that the first generation of Saxon thugs were therefore well educated and artistic overlords is, frankly, more evidence for your fantasy history of the English. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Are you criticizing me for sympathizing with Meibion Glyndwr? Bring it on... Local homes for ,local people is a nationwide issue in the rural Uk where second home owners drive out local people.
As for scum like Griffin, it's quite simple. He wants to play at being a fascist - like his predecessors in the UK, he has to accept that he might reap the whirlwind."
No. You can sympathize with who you like. One of the benefits of living in a free society. However, condoning arson with the intent to endanger life is another matter. Do you approve of criminality whether it is the Sons of Glyndwr or any other organisation. With freedom comes responsibility. Nationalism is fine. Patriotism is fine. And I believe people should be proud of their national, cultural and linguistic heritage. But when it spills over into fascism it's not so good.
By the way. Is 'local homes for local people' really a 'nationwide issue in rural UK'? I confess I don't know. |
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"Are you criticizing me for sympathizing with Meibion Glyndwr? Bring it on... Local homes for ,local people is a nationwide issue in the rural Uk where second home owners drive out local people.
As for scum like Griffin, it's quite simple. He wants to play at being a fascist - like his predecessors in the UK, he has to accept that he might reap the whirlwind.
No. You can sympathize with who you like. One of the benefits of living in a free society. However, condoning arson with the intent to endanger life is another matter. Do you approve of criminality whether it is the Sons of Glyndwr or any other organisation. With freedom comes responsibility. Nationalism is fine. Patriotism is fine. And I believe people should be proud of their national, cultural and linguistic heritage. But when it spills over into fascism it's not so good.
By the way. Is 'local homes for local people' really a 'nationwide issue in rural UK'? I confess I don't know."
It is around here, and we are lucky there are still a few council houses ,but talk to people across the country who have been driven out of their native villages by second home owners and commuters and you will tap a well spring of burning anger.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For Balliol and Bruce read;
Solomon and Adonijah indirectly leading to the fragmentation and defeat of the Kingdom of Israel.
Diarmait Mac Murchada and Ruaidri mac Tairrdelbach Ua Conchobair indirectly leading to Norman settlement and subsequent English involvement in Ireland.
Virtually anyone from any of the Roman Empires
The Anschluss - different circumstances similar results.
Virtually any dispute in the Balkans including the most recent Serbo-Croat hostilities.
And perhaps even the latest troubles in Bahrain thereby leading to Saudi Arabia being invited in.
The common denominator in all of these examples is human nature. Specifically; personal self interest, greed, megalomania, political and military expediency, ego. Nationalism [the last refuge of the scoundrel?]has rarely been a major factor although it usually the reason [or smokescreen] that all the dubious characters involved have expounded to achieve their aims. Add to the mix murder, matricide, patricide, fratricide, infanticide, incest, nepotism, marriages of convenience, dissolutions of convenience, gunboat [or Longboat] diplomacy, duplicity/diplomacy and there, in a nut shell, I would suggest, you have every nations history.
"
I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some minutes ago. People need to let it go. The injustices and grievances from the distance past, percieved or real. Holding onto them and visiting the sins of the great, great, great, great cubed grandfathers on the sons perpetuates hostility, angst and anger. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Are you criticizing me for sympathizing with Meibion Glyndwr? Bring it on... Local homes for ,local people is a nationwide issue in the rural Uk where second home owners drive out local people.
As for scum like Griffin, it's quite simple. He wants to play at being a fascist - like his predecessors in the UK, he has to accept that he might reap the whirlwind.
No. You can sympathize with who you like. One of the benefits of living in a free society. However, condoning arson with the intent to endanger life is another matter. Do you approve of criminality whether it is the Sons of Glyndwr or any other organisation. With freedom comes responsibility. Nationalism is fine. Patriotism is fine. And I believe people should be proud of their national, cultural and linguistic heritage. But when it spills over into fascism it's not so good.
By the way. Is 'local homes for local people' really a 'nationwide issue in rural UK'? I confess I don't know.
It is around here, and we are lucky there are still a few council houses ,but talk to people across the country who have been driven out of their native villages by second home owners and commuters and you will tap a well spring of burning anger.
"
How were they driven out? Compulsory purchase order? There are very few council houses, if any, in metropolitan, urban areas either. Social housing is now in the hands of large private companies who are registered social landlords. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Are you criticizing me for sympathizing with Meibion Glyndwr? Bring it on... Local homes for ,local people is a nationwide issue in the rural Uk where second home owners drive out local people.
As for scum like Griffin, it's quite simple. He wants to play at being a fascist - like his predecessors in the UK, he has to accept that he might reap the whirlwind.
No. You can sympathize with who you like. One of the benefits of living in a free society. However, condoning arson with the intent to endanger life is another matter. Do you approve of criminality whether it is the Sons of Glyndwr or any other organisation. With freedom comes responsibility. Nationalism is fine. Patriotism is fine. And I believe people should be proud of their national, cultural and linguistic heritage. But when it spills over into fascism it's not so good.
By the way. Is 'local homes for local people' really a 'nationwide issue in rural UK'? I confess I don't know.
It is around here, and we are lucky there are still a few council houses ,but talk to people across the country who have been driven out of their native villages by second home owners and commuters and you will tap a well spring of burning anger.
"
People should be allowed to buy homes where they like. Far too much mollycoddling in society these days. Nobody should have priority to live in a set area no matter how long their family lived there. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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CHIIIIIIIIILLL people,
I'm no historian but here's my point of _iew,
Agree,disagree,what ever.
It's the foriegn influence that made Britain great.
There are no indeginous peoples to this isle.
We are all foriegners somewhere down the line,except and rejoice in it. |
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"Are you criticizing me for sympathizing with Meibion Glyndwr? Bring it on... Local homes for ,local people is a nationwide issue in the rural Uk where second home owners drive out local people.
As for scum like Griffin, it's quite simple. He wants to play at being a fascist - like his predecessors in the UK, he has to accept that he might reap the whirlwind.
No. You can sympathize with who you like. One of the benefits of living in a free society. However, condoning arson with the intent to endanger life is another matter. Do you approve of criminality whether it is the Sons of Glyndwr or any other organisation. With freedom comes responsibility. Nationalism is fine. Patriotism is fine. And I believe people should be proud of their national, cultural and linguistic heritage. But when it spills over into fascism it's not so good.
By the way. Is 'local homes for local people' really a 'nationwide issue in rural UK'? I confess I don't know.
It is around here, and we are lucky there are still a few council houses ,but talk to people across the country who have been driven out of their native villages by second home owners and commuters and you will tap a well spring of burning anger.
How were they driven out? Compulsory purchase order? There are very few council houses, if any, in metropolitan, urban areas either. Social housing is now in the hands of large private companies who are registered social landlords."
There were a number of factors,change of use under the tories was a driving one,no matter how much locals objected the planning commitees could do nothing when 3 terraced cottages were bought and knocked into one.
Then there was the selling off of the council houses.
But the major problem has been the obsession in this country with house prices, people judging their worth by an arbitrary number imposed by the banks.In the past cities have been fashionable,right now it is rural areas.So we get overinflated prices and no protection for those who actualy keep the villages alive.
You say this is a problem in cities too, well fight for social housing too. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You say this is a problem in cities too, well fight for social housing too."
I didn't say it was a problem Jemima. It's just the way it is. Times change. Things change. A lot of council houses were bought by the sitting tenants as the money they had already paid as rent over the years was taken into account in the sale price. It is a British-ism though. Mainland Europeans don't seem to be as hung up on 'owning' their own homes and renting is the way to go. Unfortunately, especially for youngsters and first time buyers, inflated property prices mean that renting is now becoming the preferred choice in this country too.
Go to University; run up over £30k of debt; Get a good reasonably to well paid job; Banks deduct student loans; Can't afford mortgage for anything decent.
Anyway. How did we get onto this? Are we building a bloody wall or not? |
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"Explain where i said anything about Nick Griffin?
You seem to be getting a little confused now.
You objected to my referring to English political reprobates who have settled in Wales. I referred to him, and you bit. "
You also didn't mention Griffin, but you capitalised 'English' .
I'm no fan of Griffin or his ilk. |
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"A fake English history?
Like the Mapinogion perhaps?
It's spelled Mabinogion. If you have evidence that it is 'fake' it had better be stronger evidence than you provided for for your claim that wealas and Walesch are the same.
"
Are you really saying that an accepted set of mythical tales are REALLY literal and fasctual?
Evidence please?
Links are not allowed, but even the home page of the above mentioned body of works refer to it as the Mythology of Wales.
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"In amongst this heap of bollocks is an intersting idea.
After the treason of the saxons, rebelling against their employers, Britain became part of a north sea economy. One hundred years on from the events Gildas describes there was an established trade route between Northern Germany / Denmark and Britain built upon the crimes of the Saxon mercenaries. Using this as evidence for the assertion that the first generation of Saxon thugs were therefore well educated and artistic overlords is, frankly, more evidence for your fantasy history of the English."
Treason of the Saxons???
Treason can only be committed by a people against their accepted overlord. The Saxon mercenaries turned because they were not paid according to some sources. Treason? What a ridiculous claim.
So the Staffordshire Hoard is not evidence of art, Sutton Hoo not evidence?
The art of the Wuffinga's perhaps?
I like how you now make the claim of the '1st generation' of Saxon thugs, it shows your complete refusal to even contemplate that an invading/immigrating people had anything worth valuing at all.
In the 4th Century the Roman Army had become increasingly Germanised, not only officers but men. Under pressure from the East Germanic Tribes crossed into the Empire and settled all over, bringing with them their own culture.
The art of the Migration Period is patchy, but to say there is no evidence is complete and utter revisionist rubbish.
You are not a historian, you are a revisionist seperatist who would deny that the early English brought anything of value with them.
Your reliance on an early Christian Scribe bemoaning the loss of his church and status cannot be used without placing it in it's wider context against all the other writings from the Later Empire.
Gildas was biased as you know, but his bias suits your own so you hold him up as an icon to you bitterness over your percieved ancestors not being able to hold onto 'The Lost Lands'.
Gildas was always going to belittle the Saxons, they were not Christian and the Early Church was always antagonistic towards those it percieved as non worshippers.
Context is all.
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Anyway, i 'll leave this now.
It is quite clear that my 'opponent' is biased to the point of bigotry and completely unable to accept any thought or idea that what he sees as the enemy have any artistic, cultural, legal or religious history of any note.
His overt reliance on the obviously distorted _iews of a scribe of the Early Church simply re-enforce his own.
I think his own utterances on this thread tell us this.
Pity, could have been interesting. |
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Sorry people, one more point.
The scribe Gildas has been held up as the epitome of reason and factual balance, however his work "The Ruin of Britain" contains these words...
"The proud tyrant and his council decided that the ferocious Saxons hated by man and God should be let into the island like wolves into the fold, to beat back the peoples of the North"
Balanced? not really. Gildas was NOT writing as a historian but as a prophet, castigating his rulers and demanding that they show repentance for their sins lest God send another wave of Saxons. It is in his own interest to portray the Saxons in as bad a light as possible.
To uphold Gildas and denigrate Bede is absolute nonsense when Bede used Gildas as the basis of his works, If Bede is rubbish then Gildas is therefore also suspect.
Revisionists however, are fond of taking the parts that appeal to them, ignoring the evidence that doesn't suit their mindset and then creating a new mythology.
The Welsh writer Edward Llyudd was a prime example, taking classical writings from Greece and attempting to use them in his attempt to create a pan-'Celtic' arc.
Complete rubbish of course, the Greek 'Keltoi' he used was a sneering term denoting barbarians and ONLY EVER meant the people living inland from the Ionian Sea. Neither Caesar, his generals or the historian Tacitus ever use this word in regards to the peoples of Britannia.
It is a mid C18th politically motivated construct and nothing more. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Dont think walls are the answer.
But, if the SNP now push for a referendum and its carried etc lots will change in that lovely part of this country.
Funding from Westminster may well be one major factor if the Scottish Parliament has full tax raising powers."
aye no need fer walls when you got that kinda weather. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Are you criticizing me for sympathizing with Meibion Glyndwr? Bring it on... Local homes for ,local people is a nationwide issue in the rural Uk where second home owners drive out local people.
As for scum like Griffin, it's quite simple. He wants to play at being a fascist - like his predecessors in the UK, he has to accept that he might reap the whirlwind.
No. You can sympathize with who you like. One of the benefits of living in a free society. However, condoning arson with the intent to endanger life is another matter. Do you approve of criminality whether it is the Sons of Glyndwr or any other organisation. With freedom comes responsibility. Nationalism is fine. Patriotism is fine. And I believe people should be proud of their national, cultural and linguistic heritage. But when it spills over into fascism it's not so good.
By the way. Is 'local homes for local people' really a 'nationwide issue in rural UK'? I confess I don't know.
It is around here, and we are lucky there are still a few council houses ,but talk to people across the country who have been driven out of their native villages by second home owners and commuters and you will tap a well spring of burning anger.
How were they driven out? Compulsory purchase order? There are very few council houses, if any, in metropolitan, urban areas either. Social housing is now in the hands of large private companies who are registered social landlords."
and some of the accommodation they provide is worse than workhouse standards. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"CHIIIIIIIIILLL people,
I'm no historian but here's my point of _iew,
Agree,disagree,what ever.
It's the foriegn influence that made Britain great.
There are no indeginous peoples to this isle.
We are all foriegners somewhere down the line,except and rejoice in it."
aye, assimilation is our fortee. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Deffinatly. Only this time with a 50ft electric fence, a very large minefield to the North of it and MG towers every half mile
But seriously, i don't know about the Scottish and welsh voting for independance, i think the English should have a referendum on ending the Union. We have given up the rest of our Empire, might as well let these two parts go there own way."
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