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New Downs Syndrome Test
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
Sally Phillips has made a programme on Downs Syndrome. She has a Downs son.
The Moral Maze this evening is also about the new test, with some countries seeing the test as a way of eradicating Downs completely from their countries.
Phillips' line on this is that the termination rates have increased and some women are being forced to take the test to lead them to termination.
Thoughts?
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I don't approve. People with Down's syndrome can live happy lives. "
I know many who do.
We are moving, more and more, to having screening for all sorts of things. At what point do we say no?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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That doesn't sit comfortably with me. I refused the blood tests to check for the markers when I've been pregnant and I would never have agreed to further evasive tests. Downs Syndrome children now attend main stream schools and seem to have a good quality of life, so no need in my opinion. |
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"That doesn't sit comfortably with me. I refused the blood tests to check for the markers when I've been pregnant and I would never have agreed to further evasive tests. Downs Syndrome children now attend main stream schools and seem to have a good quality of life, so no need in my opinion."
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"That doesn't sit comfortably with me. I refused the blood tests to check for the markers when I've been pregnant and I would never have agreed to further evasive tests. Downs Syndrome children now attend main stream schools and seem to have a good quality of life, so no need in my opinion."
The new test is not invasive.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That doesn't sit comfortably with me. I refused the blood tests to check for the markers when I've been pregnant and I would never have agreed to further evasive tests. Downs Syndrome children now attend main stream schools and seem to have a good quality of life, so no need in my opinion."
Not all. There are different levels of severity. And you don't know at the point of the test how severe it will be. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think we have a responsibility to give children the best possible start in life so they can enjoy everything it has to offer."
And terminate those we judge can't have that?
Hmmm |
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"Sally Phillips has made a programme on Downs Syndrome. She has a Downs son.
The Moral Maze this evening is also about the new test, with some countries seeing the test as a way of eradicating Downs completely from their countries.
Phillips' line on this is that the termination rates have increased and some women are being forced to take the test to lead them to termination.
Thoughts?
"
To a certain extent it depends what one's views on abortion are.
Plus it is an emotive subject since parents with Downs children often take any opposing views personally.
We had the basic tests (didn't everyone?) and given the choice we would rather have a healthy baby. But it's not just this is it? We're close to parents being able to screen for a wide range of hereditary conditions aren't we?
Mr ddc |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I think we have a responsibility to give children the best possible start in life so they can enjoy everything it has to offer."
I agree but this is about whether we let a pregnancy become a child if the test shows a genetic flaw/difference.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think we have a responsibility to give children the best possible start in life so they can enjoy everything it has to offer.
And terminate those we judge can't have that?
Hmmm "
I don't have an issue with termination. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think we have a responsibility to give children the best possible start in life so they can enjoy everything it has to offer.
I agree but this is about whether we let a pregnancy become a child if the test shows a genetic flaw/difference.
"
It still applies. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"100% terminations for those who have had the new test in Iceland.
And do they have a choice ? Or is termination being forced upon them ?"
It's a choice but the programme is arguing that the choice is in the context of this being cultural norm to terminate.
The programme is being presented from the perspective of a mother with a Downs child.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don't like the idea of people being written off before they are born... and I am not saying I am anti-abortion. I just think that it asks some very challenging questions of a couple/woman; questions that could harm their relationship. Questions that could leave them with guilt in the future...
I just don't know what's right or wrong here; but writing people off whether they are a fetus or 50 years old or whatever is a sad state of affairs...
Don't we all have potential? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world "
Do they live "fantastic" lives in the Sudan? Or Afghanistan? If you could screen for genetic disability in the womb and you had no access to health care would you change your perspective? Are you judging other people by our high standards? Iceland has no excuse btw. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Sally Phillips has made a programme on Downs Syndrome. She has a Downs son.
The Moral Maze this evening is also about the new test, with some countries seeing the test as a way of eradicating Downs completely from their countries.
Phillips' line on this is that the termination rates have increased and some women are being forced to take the test to lead them to termination.
Thoughts?
To a certain extent it depends what one's views on abortion are.
Plus it is an emotive subject since parents with Downs children often take any opposing views personally.
We had the basic tests (didn't everyone?) and given the choice we would rather have a healthy baby. But it's not just this is it? We're close to parents being able to screen for a wide range of hereditary conditions aren't we?
Mr ddc"
That is the issue for me. I think we are really only a handful of years away from screening for just about everything will be available.
We already have people terminating because they are carrying girls and I wonder where the line is?
I am pro-choice, but I also understand that is not an easy choice.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"100% terminations for those who have had the new test in Iceland.
And do they have a choice ? Or is termination being forced upon them ?
It's a choice but the programme is arguing that the choice is in the context of this being cultural norm to terminate.
The programme is being presented from the perspective of a mother with a Downs child.
"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Sally Phillips has made a programme on Downs Syndrome. She has a Downs son.
The Moral Maze this evening is also about the new test, with some countries seeing the test as a way of eradicating Downs completely from their countries.
Phillips' line on this is that the termination rates have increased and some women are being forced to take the test to lead them to termination.
Thoughts?
To a certain extent it depends what one's views on abortion are.
Plus it is an emotive subject since parents with Downs children often take any opposing views personally.
We had the basic tests (didn't everyone?) and given the choice we would rather have a healthy baby. But it's not just this is it? We're close to parents being able to screen for a wide range of hereditary conditions aren't we?
Mr ddc
That is the issue for me. I think we are really only a handful of years away from screening for just about everything will be available.
We already have people terminating because they are carrying girls and I wonder where the line is?
I am pro-choice, but I also understand that is not an easy choice.
"
That's all very different only eyes. Let's be honest - Downs syndrome is not some mild genetic flaw. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I don't like the idea of people being written off before they are born... and I am not saying I am anti-abortion. I just think that it asks some very challenging questions of a couple/woman; questions that could harm their relationship. Questions that could leave them with guilt in the future...
I just don't know what's right or wrong here; but writing people off whether they are a fetus or 50 years old or whatever is a sad state of affairs...
Don't we all have potential? "
I read a book in the 80s called The Ambivalence of Abortion. It made me think about the difficulties of making the choice to terminate.
At what point do we judge that there isn't potential?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It makes me very uncomfortable to hear the word 'eradicate'...how far will science go to remove other undesirable genetic characteristics?
I too refused the tests for Down's Syndrome in my last 3 pregnancies (the 1st one they did it without informing me) despite the midwives really promoting it. I can imagine women being bullied into it and subsequently an abortion.
Some genetic abnormalities are serious enough to warrant scientists 'playing god'...Down's Syndrome isn't one of them  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sally Phillips has made a programme on Downs Syndrome. She has a Downs son.
The Moral Maze this evening is also about the new test, with some countries seeing the test as a way of eradicating Downs completely from their countries.
Phillips' line on this is that the termination rates have increased and some women are being forced to take the test to lead them to termination.
Thoughts?
To a certain extent it depends what one's views on abortion are.
Plus it is an emotive subject since parents with Downs children often take any opposing views personally.
We had the basic tests (didn't everyone?) and given the choice we would rather have a healthy baby. But it's not just this is it? We're close to parents being able to screen for a wide range of hereditary conditions aren't we?
Mr ddc
That is the issue for me. I think we are really only a handful of years away from screening for just about everything will be available.
We already have people terminating because they are carrying girls and I wonder where the line is?
I am pro-choice, but I also understand that is not an easy choice.
That's all very different only eyes. Let's be honest - Downs syndrome is not some mild genetic flaw."
This programme was from the perspective of a mother of a high functioning child with Down's syndrome. That isn't the reality in all cases by any stretch. |
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"I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world
Do they live "fantastic" lives in the Sudan? Or Afghanistan? If you could screen for genetic disability in the womb and you had no access to health care would you change your perspective? Are you judging other people by our high standards? Iceland has no excuse btw."
but would people with any genetic illness live fantastic lives in those countries, why are they just testing for downs and not all genetic deformaties |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Sally Phillips has made a programme on Downs Syndrome. She has a Downs son.
The Moral Maze this evening is also about the new test, with some countries seeing the test as a way of eradicating Downs completely from their countries.
Phillips' line on this is that the termination rates have increased and some women are being forced to take the test to lead them to termination.
Thoughts?
To a certain extent it depends what one's views on abortion are.
Plus it is an emotive subject since parents with Downs children often take any opposing views personally.
We had the basic tests (didn't everyone?) and given the choice we would rather have a healthy baby. But it's not just this is it? We're close to parents being able to screen for a wide range of hereditary conditions aren't we?
Mr ddc
That is the issue for me. I think we are really only a handful of years away from screening for just about everything will be available.
We already have people terminating because they are carrying girls and I wonder where the line is?
I am pro-choice, but I also understand that is not an easy choice.
That's all very different only eyes. Let's be honest - Downs syndrome is not some mild genetic flaw."
There are other genetic flaws that we don't question, such as arthritis.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Sally Phillips has made a programme on Downs Syndrome. She has a Downs son.
The Moral Maze this evening is also about the new test, with some countries seeing the test as a way of eradicating Downs completely from their countries.
Phillips' line on this is that the termination rates have increased and some women are being forced to take the test to lead them to termination.
Thoughts?
To a certain extent it depends what one's views on abortion are.
Plus it is an emotive subject since parents with Downs children often take any opposing views personally.
We had the basic tests (didn't everyone?) and given the choice we would rather have a healthy baby. But it's not just this is it? We're close to parents being able to screen for a wide range of hereditary conditions aren't we?
Mr ddc
That is the issue for me. I think we are really only a handful of years away from screening for just about everything will be available.
We already have people terminating because they are carrying girls and I wonder where the line is?
I am pro-choice, but I also understand that is not an easy choice.
That's all very different only eyes. Let's be honest - Downs syndrome is not some mild genetic flaw.
There are other genetic flaws that we don't question, such as arthritis.
"
Is there a genetic test available to identify arthritis? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world
Do they live "fantastic" lives in the Sudan? Or Afghanistan? If you could screen for genetic disability in the womb and you had no access to health care would you change your perspective? Are you judging other people by our high standards? Iceland has no excuse btw."
I get your point totally - the humanist side of me says how sad we have to make differential judgements based upon the wealth and support from a country - life is universal so choice and opportunity should be too. The realist of course says that is impossible. I just don't like the idea of systematically deciding a life is not worth it - gas vans and worse did that in Europe when those with downs were murdered by a state and I shiver at the thought of an approach that allows that the only difference being one is in the womb. Maybe I am too narrow in my thinking but I am really uncomfortable with it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world
Do they live "fantastic" lives in the Sudan? Or Afghanistan? If you could screen for genetic disability in the womb and you had no access to health care would you change your perspective? Are you judging other people by our high standards? Iceland has no excuse btw.but would people with any genetic illness live fantastic lives in those countries, why are they just testing for downs and not all genetic deformaties"
I thought the program was alluding to the fact that Downs is just the tip of the iceberg. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world
Do they live "fantastic" lives in the Sudan? Or Afghanistan? If you could screen for genetic disability in the womb and you had no access to health care would you change your perspective? Are you judging other people by our high standards? Iceland has no excuse btw."
We always judge by our own standards.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Sally Phillips has made a programme on Downs Syndrome. She has a Downs son.
The Moral Maze this evening is also about the new test, with some countries seeing the test as a way of eradicating Downs completely from their countries.
Phillips' line on this is that the termination rates have increased and some women are being forced to take the test to lead them to termination.
Thoughts?
To a certain extent it depends what one's views on abortion are.
Plus it is an emotive subject since parents with Downs children often take any opposing views personally.
We had the basic tests (didn't everyone?) and given the choice we would rather have a healthy baby. But it's not just this is it? We're close to parents being able to screen for a wide range of hereditary conditions aren't we?
Mr ddc
That is the issue for me. I think we are really only a handful of years away from screening for just about everything will be available.
We already have people terminating because they are carrying girls and I wonder where the line is?
I am pro-choice, but I also understand that is not an easy choice.
That's all very different only eyes. Let's be honest - Downs syndrome is not some mild genetic flaw.
There are other genetic flaws that we don't question, such as arthritis.
Is there a genetic test available to identify arthritis?"
Not yet. But in the future.... |
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"
Mr ddc
That is the issue for me. I think we are really only a handful of years away from screening for just about everything will be available.
We already have people terminating because they are carrying girls and I wonder where the line is?
I am pro-choice, but I also understand that is not an easy choice.
"
I guess to a certain extent it has to have an input from Parliament. Aren't abortions for purely gender reasons illegal? (off to investigate)
But screening for a life-altering illness is still not a million miles from 'designer babies'. As you say, there must be a line, but where and who draws it? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I haven't seen the documentary yet, but from what I understand Sally Philips isn't arguing against the termination of down's syndrome babies, it's more the pressure some people are put under to terminate by clinicians.
I agree with others that a child deserves the best start in life but where does it end? I'm on the autistic spectrum, so this debate always leaves me very torn. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Sally Phillips has made a programme on Downs Syndrome. She has a Downs son.
The Moral Maze this evening is also about the new test, with some countries seeing the test as a way of eradicating Downs completely from their countries.
Phillips' line on this is that the termination rates have increased and some women are being forced to take the test to lead them to termination.
Thoughts?
To a certain extent it depends what one's views on abortion are.
Plus it is an emotive subject since parents with Downs children often take any opposing views personally.
We had the basic tests (didn't everyone?) and given the choice we would rather have a healthy baby. But it's not just this is it? We're close to parents being able to screen for a wide range of hereditary conditions aren't we?
Mr ddc
That is the issue for me. I think we are really only a handful of years away from screening for just about everything will be available.
We already have people terminating because they are carrying girls and I wonder where the line is?
I am pro-choice, but I also understand that is not an easy choice.
That's all very different only eyes. Let's be honest - Downs syndrome is not some mild genetic flaw.
There are other genetic flaws that we don't question, such as arthritis.
Is there a genetic test available to identify arthritis?"
I expect there will be at some point. I am just exploring the fact that there are tests for many things at the moment that we don't use.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world
Do they live "fantastic" lives in the Sudan? Or Afghanistan? If you could screen for genetic disability in the womb and you had no access to health care would you change your perspective? Are you judging other people by our high standards? Iceland has no excuse btw.
I get your point totally - the humanist side of me says how sad we have to make differential judgements based upon the wealth and support from a country - life is universal so choice and opportunity should be too. The realist of course says that is impossible. I just don't like the idea of systematically deciding a life is not worth it - gas vans and worse did that in Europe when those with downs were murdered by a state and I shiver at the thought of an approach that allows that the only difference being one is in the womb. Maybe I am too narrow in my thinking but I am really uncomfortable with it "
I'm really uncomfortable with parents who have made the possibly agonising decision not to continue with a pregnancy that could result in the birth of a child with severe genetic abnormalities, (such as heart conditions which might result in the baby's death in the first years of its life) being compared to the perpetrators of the holocaust. Think about what you're saying. I'm out. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world
Do they live "fantastic" lives in the Sudan? Or Afghanistan? If you could screen for genetic disability in the womb and you had no access to health care would you change your perspective? Are you judging other people by our high standards? Iceland has no excuse btw.
We always judge by our own standards.
"
Exactly. Maybe it's not for the best. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't like the idea of people being written off before they are born... and I am not saying I am anti-abortion. I just think that it asks some very challenging questions of a couple/woman; questions that could harm their relationship. Questions that could leave them with guilt in the future...
I just don't know what's right or wrong here; but writing people off whether they are a fetus or 50 years old or whatever is a sad state of affairs...
Don't we all have potential?
I read a book in the 80s called The Ambivalence of Abortion. It made me think about the difficulties of making the choice to terminate.
At what point do we judge that there isn't potential?
"
I just think it's an emotional minefield... I have worked in developing countries were even the simplest genetic mutation (horrible phrase but there it is) can lead to a life time of pain and misery, where the same mutation in "the west" can be treated and care given to minimise it's impact.
The truth in this is that those countries were people suffer the most won't ever see this kind of screening so it becomes the reserve of the rich west and then perhaps we walk the fine line of "designer" babies..
To me all life is precious, now you may think that's anti-abortion; but it isn't because the life of a potential mother is precious too, as is her choice. We have socially and medically accepted cut off points and as a layman; I have to trust in these.. |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
I guess it depends on the severity
I have only ever come in contact with one person with Down's Syndrome. I did not think they could live any kind of normal life. But maybe there are others who are not so severely affected |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world
Do they live "fantastic" lives in the Sudan? Or Afghanistan? If you could screen for genetic disability in the womb and you had no access to health care would you change your perspective? Are you judging other people by our high standards? Iceland has no excuse btw."
Some Eastern European countries put disabled children into care homes as a matter of course. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"
Mr ddc
That is the issue for me. I think we are really only a handful of years away from screening for just about everything will be available.
We already have people terminating because they are carrying girls and I wonder where the line is?
I am pro-choice, but I also understand that is not an easy choice.
I guess to a certain extent it has to have an input from Parliament. Aren't abortions for purely gender reasons illegal? (off to investigate)
But screening for a life-altering illness is still not a million miles from 'designer babies'. As you say, there must be a line, but where and who draws it? "
Gender terminations aren't legal in this country but they happen here and elsewhere across the world. China's one child policy has led to an imbalance in the genders. That is a direct result of terminations on gender and female infanticide.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I would compare people that terminate a baby for having down syndrome to be the same as Hitler.
When did we have so little love for life. We are talking about people with the same thoughts and feeling as the rest of us and some of you have no worrie to just murder them.
And like some one else said Where does it stop? Trying to make perfection when some of us would just like the chance. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I have a child with extensive extra needs. Not DS though.
When I was pregnant with him, I didn't even have the screening available then (10 years ago). Because I was naive enough to think along the lines of 'I'd love my baby regardless' and 'it won't happen to me anyway'
A botched labour and delivery led to a child with significant disability. It's not quite as simple as 'oh but he's happy'. I adore my children, but my poor child has undergone so many hideous medical procedures and his quality of life is not as good as an able bodied child of the same age.
I do my best to make sure he has everything he needs. But the NHS is not set up for this. It cannot always meet the needs of my child! We have provided so much equipment for home and school.
I'm not saying that all baby's with DS should be terminated, nor would I not have my child, but it would be sensible to look at a wider picture and give families the correct information and enable them to make an informed choice. Not judge their choice if they feel that they cannot meet the needs of what could be a severely disabled child and eventually adult. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world
Do they live "fantastic" lives in the Sudan? Or Afghanistan? If you could screen for genetic disability in the womb and you had no access to health care would you change your perspective? Are you judging other people by our high standards? Iceland has no excuse btw.
I get your point totally - the humanist side of me says how sad we have to make differential judgements based upon the wealth and support from a country - life is universal so choice and opportunity should be too. The realist of course says that is impossible. I just don't like the idea of systematically deciding a life is not worth it - gas vans and worse did that in Europe when those with downs were murdered by a state and I shiver at the thought of an approach that allows that the only difference being one is in the womb. Maybe I am too narrow in my thinking but I am really uncomfortable with it "
I hope we are not moving to that level of state sponsored eugenics.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have a child with extensive extra needs. Not DS though.
When I was pregnant with him, I didn't even have the screening available then (10 years ago). Because I was naive enough to think along the lines of 'I'd love my baby regardless' and 'it won't happen to me anyway'
A botched labour and delivery led to a child with significant disability. It's not quite as simple as 'oh but he's happy'. I adore my children, but my poor child has undergone so many hideous medical procedures and his quality of life is not as good as an able bodied child of the same age.
I do my best to make sure he has everything he needs. But the NHS is not set up for this. It cannot always meet the needs of my child! We have provided so much equipment for home and school.
I'm not saying that all baby's with DS should be terminated, nor would I not have my child, but it would be sensible to look at a wider picture and give families the correct information and enable them to make an informed choice. Not judge their choice if they feel that they cannot meet the needs of what could be a severely disabled child and eventually adult."
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"I really struggle with this - so many with Downs lead fantastic lives and who is to say there is no value in that life? As a poster has already said, where do we then draw the line - a test for other generic issues?
Oh brave new world
Do they live "fantastic" lives in the Sudan? Or Afghanistan? If you could screen for genetic disability in the womb and you had no access to health care would you change your perspective? Are you judging other people by our high standards? Iceland has no excuse btw.but would people with any genetic illness live fantastic lives in those countries, why are they just testing for downs and not all genetic deformaties
I thought the program was alluding to the fact that Downs is just the tip of the iceberg."
im only going on the information given in the op, |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I remember the moral debates about cloning and stem cells..."
As do I.
Very early in my career I was given a rare, and rather fantastic, opportunity to attend the meetings of the Warnock Commission on Human Fertilisation and Embryology.
All of this is emotive stuff that cuts to us thinking about what it is to be human... and humane.
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I would compare people that terminate a baby for having down syndrome to be the same as Hitler.
When did we have so little love for life. We are talking about people with the same thoughts and feeling as the rest of us and some of you have no worrie to just murder them.
And like some one else said Where does it stop? Trying to make perfection when some of us would just like the chance. "
I wouldn't compare it to the mass slaughter of millions of people by one man's ideology. It is an individual and difficult choice made by people trying to do the best they can.
I accept that some people don't approve of abortion at all, but that is only part of the debate.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I would compare people that terminate a baby for having down syndrome to be the same as Hitler.
When did we have so little love for life. We are talking about people with the same thoughts and feeling as the rest of us and some of you have no worrie to just murder them.
And like some one else said Where does it stop? Trying to make perfection when some of us would just like the chance. "
It's not about trying to make perfection, it's about bringing a life into the world that could be totally shit. Not all Down Syndrome people have rewarding lives and can be very difficult to look after. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I have a child with extensive extra needs. Not DS though.
When I was pregnant with him, I didn't even have the screening available then (10 years ago). Because I was naive enough to think along the lines of 'I'd love my baby regardless' and 'it won't happen to me anyway'
A botched labour and delivery led to a child with significant disability. It's not quite as simple as 'oh but he's happy'. I adore my children, but my poor child has undergone so many hideous medical procedures and his quality of life is not as good as an able bodied child of the same age.
I do my best to make sure he has everything he needs. But the NHS is not set up for this. It cannot always meet the needs of my child! We have provided so much equipment for home and school.
I'm not saying that all baby's with DS should be terminated, nor would I not have my child, but it would be sensible to look at a wider picture and give families the correct information and enable them to make an informed choice. Not judge their choice if they feel that they cannot meet the needs of what could be a severely disabled child and eventually adult."
We do also have to think about the longer term and how we support these children who then become dependent adults.
Three of the Downs families I know are getting to the point where their children have lived longer than was their original prognosis. One set of parents are now in their mid and late 70s with a large 30 year old man they have to care for in almost every way. They are up two or three times a night with him and when he gets cross he is, inadvertently, violent. He's a lovely man but he is hard work. They soon won't be strong enough themselves to provide all of his care.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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you can't compare this to the holocaust. hitler tried to force eugenics onto people and he decided who was 'worthy' of life.
aborting, or considering one, for yourself and your family is your own personal choice as it affects you personally. it isn't the same as eugenics philosophically but does produce the same result.
i wanted to watch this programme but don't have a TV license so can't watch the BBC, but i suppose people with genetically deformed children will take it personally?
i do wonder how people with down syndrome feel about it too?
i don't think it's cruel to want to rid societies of disabilities or enhance anyone's life, and this includes carers. but i think in the future there will be better ways of doing this without 'killing' anything. but it still sends out the message that being disabled is wrong and needs curing. not sure that's fair to people with disabilities who are coping with them but those who are not coping would probably understand it. |
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"I would compare people that terminate a baby for having down syndrome to be the same as Hitler."
Really? I mean, exactly the same?
" When did we have so little love for life. We are talking about people with the same thoughts and feeling as the rest of us and some of you have no worrie to just murder them."
No. We're talking about embryos.
" Trying to make perfection when some of us would just like the chance. "
While I think I understand where you are coming from, I think you are idealising the struggle many parents go through, and in doing so, trivialise their own choices. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I really think a grip on reality is needed here, this is to do with a genetic defect (sorry to be blunt) not a race of people.
My second cousin Olive was a downs baby and was extremely handicapped, sometime extremely violent, despite my great Aunt looking after her till the day she died (Olive that is) and never complaining and the added stigma in those non enlightened days. It wasn't poor old Olives fault she was in the main very unhappy and confused.
Its very easy for some wealthy journalist with all the help at hand to say, this is genocide.
Funny thing is if she made a programme saying abortion be banned per se, people would say right to choose, despite the baby being healthy.
Far as I'm aware this test and certainly the abortion is voluntary, but the facts speak for themselves most people choose to terminate, now some people would condemn them, I certainly don't. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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So we could go on to say when a baby is heathy up untill birth but the cord gets stuck round there neck we should do something about It. Or maybe when a loved one is in a car crash and becomes disable we should put them down like a dog.
I mean fuck it, only the best right. Something wrong with them well it's to much effort to try and help them let's think of our selfs and get rid of the problem.
My brother has Ds, he lives a full life. Diffrent from ours but it doesn't make him any less worth than the rest of you.
And yeah I stand by my thought that if your happy to kill someone one, call it a embreo if you like it has a heart beat and a brain by the age you are tested of diffrent conditions. They feel the pain.
Think this is a bad forum to come across.
It's very close to my heart. And i know others have there opion so I will just leave it there. X |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"So we could go on to say when a baby is heathy up untill birth but the cord gets stuck round there neck we should do something about It. Or maybe when a loved one is in a car crash and becomes disable we should put them down like a dog.
I mean fuck it, only the best right. Something wrong with them well it's to much effort to try and help them let's think of our selfs and get rid of the problem.
My brother has Ds, he lives a full life. Diffrent from ours but it doesn't make him any less worth than the rest of you.
And yeah I stand by my thought that if your happy to kill someone one, call it a embreo if you like it has a heart beat and a brain by the age you are tested of diffrent conditions. They feel the pain.
Think this is a bad forum to come across.
It's very close to my heart. And i know others have there opion so I will just leave it there. X"
It is an emotive subject and some of us feeling it more personally than others. It is possible to have a debate from those different viewpoints without accusing someone of being Hitler though.
Your brother is in this world, loved and living his full life. That's great.
Born in another country, to other parents, with a more severe set of Downs' conditions and things might be different.
You are passionate about your views - they come from your experience. That's all good.
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"Ch4 has a Dispatches on Abortion later tonight."
And now we know where the 'Hitler' and 'genocide' tactics come from. It makes you wonder why the clinics don't employ security door staff to better protect their clients. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Ch4 has a Dispatches on Abortion later tonight.
And now we know where the 'Hitler' and 'genocide' tactics come from. It makes you wonder why the clinics don't employ security door staff to better protect their clients. "
I had exactly the same thought. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Im not sure about people being forced to take the test, what exactly does it involve? i dont think its fair or right to have a child with downs syndrome when you could terminate it instead."
Oh do not hesitate to share such an abominable view. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sally Phillips has made a programme on Downs Syndrome. She has a Downs son.
The Moral Maze this evening is also about the new test, with some countries seeing the test as a way of eradicating Downs completely from their countries.
Phillips' line on this is that the termination rates have increased and some women are being forced to take the test to lead them to termination.
Thoughts?
To a certain extent it depends what one's views on abortion are.
Plus it is an emotive subject since parents with Downs children often take any opposing views personally.
We had the basic tests (didn't everyone?) and given the choice we would rather have a healthy baby. But it's not just this is it? We're close to parents being able to screen for a wide range of hereditary conditions aren't we?
Mr ddc
That is the issue for me. I think we are really only a handful of years away from screening for just about everything will be available.
We already have people terminating because they are carrying girls and I wonder where the line is?
I am pro-choice, but I also understand that is not an easy choice.
That's all very different only eyes. Let's be honest - Downs syndrome is not some mild genetic flaw."
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"Im not sure about people being forced to take the test, what exactly does it involve? i dont think its fair or right to have a child with downs syndrome when you could terminate it instead.
Oh do not hesitate to share such an abominable view. "
Dont worry, i wont. Its just my opinion. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Im not sure about people being forced to take the test, what exactly does it involve? i dont think its fair or right to have a child with downs syndrome when you could terminate it instead.
Oh do not hesitate to share such an abominable view.
Dont worry, i wont. Its just my opinion."
It's an asinine one. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The test at the present time. What worries me is where will these test stop in the future ? In 20 years will we have test for other conditions ? Will we have screening for any gene abnormalities or would be diseases ? Quite scary really.
Although I would say that it cannot be an easy decision to make for any would be mother. |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"Im not sure about people being forced to take the test, what exactly does it involve? i dont think its fair or right to have a child with downs syndrome when you could terminate it instead."
I think unless the test can measure the severity, it is a very blunt tool for any kind of decision making by the parents
I don't know any people with this condition. There is only one person I saw at my recent visit to the hospital. It was a man in his 20s, in a wheelchair, wailing and screaming from time-to-time and he had to be almost restrained by his relatives or carers. Maybe he was doing this because he was in some kind of pain; I don't know
Didn't look or behave normal in any way and maybe this was the extreme case |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The test at the present time doesn't worry me unduly. What worries me is where will these tests stop in the future ? In 20 years will we have test for other conditions ? Will we have screening for any gene abnormalities or would be diseases ? Quite scary really.
Although I would say that it cannot be an easy decision to make for any would be mother. |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"The test at the present time doesn't worry me unduly. What worries me is where will these tests stop in the future ? In 20 years will we have test for other conditions ? Will we have screening for any gene abnormalities or would be diseases ? Quite scary really.
Although I would say that it cannot be an easy decision to make for any would be mother."
Why would it be 'scary'? Nobody is forcing anyone to have the test and nobody is forcing anyone to make a decision one way or the other
Sensationalism? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The test at the present time doesn't worry me unduly. What worries me is where will these tests stop in the future ? In 20 years will we have test for other conditions ? Will we have screening for any gene abnormalities or would be diseases ? Quite scary really.
Although I would say that it cannot be an easy decision to make for any would be mother.
Why would it be 'scary'? Nobody is forcing anyone to have the test and nobody is forcing anyone to make a decision one way or the other
Sensationalism?"
The thing I find scary is the fact that a perfectly functional human life could be aborted in the future because the embryo has a gene that may contain markers relating diabetes etc. Diseases or conditions that can be managed quite easily. Where would these tests stop ? And would an would be parent feel pressured into aborting such a child. That isn't sensationalism. Its a future we could well be heading into. |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"The test at the present time doesn't worry me unduly. What worries me is where will these tests stop in the future ? In 20 years will we have test for other conditions ? Will we have screening for any gene abnormalities or would be diseases ? Quite scary really.
Although I would say that it cannot be an easy decision to make for any would be mother.
Why would it be 'scary'? Nobody is forcing anyone to have the test and nobody is forcing anyone to make a decision one way or the other
Sensationalism?
The thing I find scary is the fact that a perfectly functional human life could be aborted in the future because the embryo has a gene that may contain markers relating diabetes etc. Diseases or conditions that can be managed quite easily. Where would these tests stop ? And would an would be parent feel pressured into aborting such a child. That isn't sensationalism. Its a future we could well be heading into."
Perfectly functional human beings are being aborted right now because people choose to have abortions for other reasons which have nothing to do with any medical conditions. Don't you find the present 'scary'?
What is so 'scary' about a test? That is the sensationalism! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Im not sure about people being forced to take the test, what exactly does it involve? i dont think its fair or right to have a child with downs syndrome when you could terminate it instead.
I think unless the test can measure the severity, it is a very blunt tool for any kind of decision making by the parents
I don't know any people with this condition. There is only one person I saw at my recent visit to the hospital. It was a man in his 20s, in a wheelchair, wailing and screaming from time-to-time and he had to be almost restrained by his relatives or carers. Maybe he was doing this because he was in some kind of pain; I don't know
Didn't look or behave normal in any way and maybe this was the extreme case"
That sounds like another form of leaning disability. There Is a number of them. Some of them it is there way of communication, if it was in the hospital he was more than likely getting overwelmed by lots of noises and movement.
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Termination is and should remain personal choice. If we're going to screen for 'defects' - where do we stop. It's a slippery slope.
Having worked with young people with learning and physical disabilities for nearly 20 years of all abilities - I can say we have a lot to learn from them, even those with the most severe disabilities.
Yes, it's tough for parents, but who are we as a society to say who lives and dies. Nature has its way of doing that naturally and yes, I know with modern medical advances more disabled children are surviving, but so are people with acquired medical conditions and cancer patients.
Yes, we all have our opinion, but just because we could possibly 'eradicate' the less than perfect - should we?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yes they are and as I said it cannot be an easy decision to make. In many cases it probably is the right decision but I would hate to think that we are on the brink of design a baby. The perfect bundle of joy. I always have had the notion that all baby's are beautiful. I'm not saying abortion is wrong. I'm saying that in the future abortion could be an easy way out of not having the perfect child. |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"Im not sure about people being forced to take the test, what exactly does it involve? i dont think its fair or right to have a child with downs syndrome when you could terminate it instead.
I think unless the test can measure the severity, it is a very blunt tool for any kind of decision making by the parents
I don't know any people with this condition. There is only one person I saw at my recent visit to the hospital. It was a man in his 20s, in a wheelchair, wailing and screaming from time-to-time and he had to be almost restrained by his relatives or carers. Maybe he was doing this because he was in some kind of pain; I don't know
Didn't look or behave normal in any way and maybe this was the extreme case
That sounds like another form of leaning disability. There Is a number of them. Some of them it is there way of communication, if it was in the hospital he was more than likely getting overwelmed by lots of noises and movement.
"
Could be. I don't know enough about the condition to say if it was DS or something else
But there were no noises. It was a quiet waiting room tucked in the corner and he was there for a blood test just like everyone else was. His behaviour may have been influenced by the fact that he was outside of his normal surroundings |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"Yes they are and as I said it cannot be an easy decision to make. In many cases it probably is the right decision but I would hate to think that we are on the brink of design a baby. The perfect bundle of joy. I always have had the notion that all baby's are beautiful. I'm not saying abortion is wrong. I'm saying that in the future abortion could be an easy way out of not having the perfect child."
How do tests designed to detect debilitating conditions and horrible diseases result in the creation of 'designer' babies?
And how would abortions become easier in the future becuase of these tests? In the here and now, a woman does not have to have any reason to have an abortion but the fact that she does not want the baby! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Termination is and should remain personal choice. If we're going to screen for 'defects' - where do we stop. It's a slippery slope.
Having worked with young people with learning and physical disabilities for nearly 20 years of all abilities - I can say we have a lot to learn from them, even those with the most severe disabilities.
Yes, it's tough for parents, but who are we as a society to say who lives and dies. Nature has its way of doing that naturally and yes, I know with modern medical advances more disabled children are surviving, but so are people with acquired medical conditions and cancer patients.
Yes, we all have our opinion, but just because we could possibly 'eradicate' the less than perfect - should we?
"
But we are as a society already deciding to interfere with nature via vaccination programs and virtually every medical intervention. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's a mother's choice and it depends on her circumstances and wellbeing. "
It is a mother's choice...
But maybe it shouldn't be. If you don't have the right circumstances or well-being to have a baby in the first place. Maybe you shouldn't have one....
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"Yes they are and as I said it cannot be an easy decision to make. In many cases it probably is the right decision but I would hate to think that we are on the brink of design a baby. The perfect bundle of joy. I always have had the notion that all baby's are beautiful. I'm not saying abortion is wrong. I'm saying that in the future abortion could be an easy way out of not having the perfect child."
I dont agree with all these tests in my opinion they are unnecessary and have involved testing on animals which is totaly wrong. We have to accept that not everyones going to be normal and without health problems. If going by the test that was already avaialble you knew that your child would have something wrong with it then it would make sense to have a termination, not just for your sake but for the child. If they know something is heredity then termination is a good idea. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's a mother's choice and it depends on her circumstances and wellbeing.
It is a mother's choice...
But maybe it shouldn't be. If you don't have the right circumstances or well-being to have a baby in the first place. Maybe you shouldn't have one....
"
So you're advocating for forced sterilisation of all women you personally consider to be unsuitable as parents? Or just to remove their children at birth? |
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I feel that some of the posters on this thread need to actually speak to someone who has had to make the heartbreaking decision to either abort a much wanted and loved pregnancy or to go ahead with it in the knowledge that the child will be severely disabled and may die shortly after birth.
A few years ago I had some involvement with a a charity called ARC, antenatal results and choices. Through this I got to know a few couples who had to make just that sort of decision. The trauma and pain that these families went through is indescribable. To liken this to hitler is disgusting! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I feel that some of the posters on this thread need to actually speak to someone who has had to make the heartbreaking decision to either abort a much wanted and loved pregnancy or to go ahead with it in the knowledge that the child will be severely disabled and may die shortly after birth.
A few years ago I had some involvement with a a charity called ARC, antenatal results and choices. Through this I got to know a few couples who had to make just that sort of decision. The trauma and pain that these families went through is indescribable. To liken this to hitler is disgusting!"
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"It's a mother's choice and it depends on her circumstances and wellbeing.
It is a mother's choice...
But maybe it shouldn't be. If you don't have the right circumstances or well-being to have a baby in the first place. Maybe you shouldn't have one....
"
Who will decide that?
So any woman at present who goes to an abortion clinic should be incarcerated until she gives birth and then sterilised? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Okay as a mother of a downs daughter.. who because I was only 21 at the time.... no tests were offered...
I am going to be honest and say that while once my daughter was in my arms i refused the offers to give her up and fought very hard all my life for her...
However.. had I known in advance even being a mother to a downs child.. I can not hand on heart say I wouldnt have taken the choice to abort.
I was intensivley screened with my other children... I do speak to new and expectant parents and help them to make a real life decision..
I have read lots on the new tests and not seen anywhere that more people are being encouraged to abort.. I think just that they find out earlier and maybe that is a deciding factor x
Whatever... either decision can be a tough one |
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"I thought there already was a test to find out if the baby had downs syndrome, so why do we need another one?"
Currently there are two tests. The first doesn't give a clear answer, just a probability. If the probability is high, then a second test can be performed. This second test is far more accurate, but has a high chance of triggering a miscarriage, regardless of the health of the baby.
The new test is far safer, but still very accurate, and is based on tiny amounts of the baby's blood found in the mother's blood. Hence why they will also be able to screen for other disorders.
The worry is that Downs may be being used as the thin end of an almost infinite wedge. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes they are and as I said it cannot be an easy decision to make. In many cases it probably is the right decision but I would hate to think that we are on the brink of design a baby. The perfect bundle of joy. I always have had the notion that all baby's are beautiful. I'm not saying abortion is wrong. I'm saying that in the future abortion could be an easy way out of not having the perfect child.
How do tests designed to detect debilitating conditions and horrible diseases result in the creation of 'designer' babies?
And how would abortions become easier in the future becuase of these tests? In the here and now, a woman does not have to have any reason to have an abortion but the fact that she does not want the baby!"
Josie I do not think you get my point. And I do understand what you are saying.
Take my parents back in 1965. Had screening tests for medical conditions been about then I could well not be here. At 14 I had cancer by 16 I was clear. I have Been in good health ever since. No serious conditions. Not a night spent in hospital. Nothing but the odd cold. I'm sure in the future there will be cancer screening. Now I hate the bloody disease. Its awful. A nightmare. Would screening for this mean embryos being aborted ? Yes of course. Who would want a child who has to go through it. These test will happen in the near future.
I may be a tad outdated but I just like the idea of dealing with the cards you are dealt. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's a mother's choice and it depends on her circumstances and wellbeing.
It is a mother's choice...
But maybe it shouldn't be. If you don't have the right circumstances or well-being to have a baby in the first place. Maybe you shouldn't have one....
Who will decide that?
So any woman at present who goes to an abortion clinic should be incarcerated until she gives birth and then sterilised?"
No, just saying it goes both way some women will get pregnant very easyily and be flippant about it. There is women having lots of children and the nhs and government have to look after them.
But because they are normal its ok?
Women that are use drugs Or have health problems that will pass into children is that right?
This could go on and on. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I was offered the testing and i had it done, had the results come back with a high chance of bumpy having Downs i certainly wouldnt have terminated, iv had every screening test offered to me, and if they had come back positive, as long as my baby would be able to live an enjoyable and happy life, id never consider terminating the baby. |
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"I thought there already was a test to find out if the baby had downs syndrome, so why do we need another one?
Currently there are two tests. The first doesn't give a clear answer, just a probability. If the probability is high, then a second test can be performed. This second test is far more accurate, but has a high chance of triggering a miscarriage, regardless of the health of the baby.
The new test is far safer, but still very accurate, and is based on tiny amounts of the baby's blood found in the mother's blood. Hence why they will also be able to screen for other disorders.
The worry is that Downs may be being used as the thin end of an almost infinite wedge. "
None of it sounds very good to me, i think the old test was just as good, it would depend on how many people had miscarried because of it with healthy fetuses, if it had downs syndrome or something else then it wouldnt matter as it would be for the best. |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"Yes they are and as I said it cannot be an easy decision to make. In many cases it probably is the right decision but I would hate to think that we are on the brink of design a baby. The perfect bundle of joy. I always have had the notion that all baby's are beautiful. I'm not saying abortion is wrong. I'm saying that in the future abortion could be an easy way out of not having the perfect child.
How do tests designed to detect debilitating conditions and horrible diseases result in the creation of 'designer' babies?
And how would abortions become easier in the future becuase of these tests? In the here and now, a woman does not have to have any reason to have an abortion but the fact that she does not want the baby!
Josie I do not think you get my point. And I do understand what you are saying.
Take my parents back in 1965. Had screening tests for medical conditions been about then I could well not be here. At 14 I had cancer by 16 I was clear. I have Been in good health ever since. No serious conditions. Not a night spent in hospital. Nothing but the odd cold. I'm sure in the future there will be cancer screening. Now I hate the bloody disease. Its awful. A nightmare. Would screening for this mean embryos being aborted ? Yes of course. Who would want a child who has to go through it. These test will happen in the near future.
I may be a tad outdated but I just like the idea of dealing with the cards you are dealt."
I do understand what you are saying and I am glad that your parents chose to have you. You are correct; your condition was treated and you are living a healthy and normal life
My point was simply this; tests or no tests, abortions are being carried out in the here and now. I am neither supportive nor against these as I do not know the circumstances these women must be facing. I can imagine though that whatever their circumstances, their decision can't be an easy one
If I was told that my unborn child will have a condition where he will be left in a wheelchair and will be unable to fend for himself, I think that I will decide not to bring that life into this rather cruel world. This is ofcourse hypothetical as I am not facing this for real
I would like a battery of tests to be done not only to be able to decide whether to terminate the pregancy or not but to also be forewarned as to the difficulties which I might need to prepare myself for if I were to have the child |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"It's a mother's choice and it depends on her circumstances and wellbeing.
It is a mother's choice...
But maybe it shouldn't be. If you don't have the right circumstances or well-being to have a baby in the first place. Maybe you shouldn't have one....
Who will decide that?
So any woman at present who goes to an abortion clinic should be incarcerated until she gives birth and then sterilised?
No, just saying it goes both way some women will get pregnant very easyily and be flippant about it. There is women having lots of children and the nhs and government have to look after them.
But because they are normal its ok?
Women that are use drugs Or have health problems that will pass into children is that right?
This could go on and on. "
And it does. Not just with junkies
Women who have even one drink during pregancy are exposing their baby to Fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. It is a horrible condition and completely preventable
Go figure
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes they are and as I said it cannot be an easy decision to make. In many cases it probably is the right decision but I would hate to think that we are on the brink of design a baby. The perfect bundle of joy. I always have had the notion that all baby's are beautiful. I'm not saying abortion is wrong. I'm saying that in the future abortion could be an easy way out of not having the perfect child.
How do tests designed to detect debilitating conditions and horrible diseases result in the creation of 'designer' babies?
And how would abortions become easier in the future becuase of these tests? In the here and now, a woman does not have to have any reason to have an abortion but the fact that she does not want the baby!
Josie I do not think you get my point. And I do understand what you are saying.
Take my parents back in 1965. Had screening tests for medical conditions been about then I could well not be here. At 14 I had cancer by 16 I was clear. I have Been in good health ever since. No serious conditions. Not a night spent in hospital. Nothing but the odd cold. I'm sure in the future there will be cancer screening. Now I hate the bloody disease. Its awful. A nightmare. Would screening for this mean embryos being aborted ? Yes of course. Who would want a child who has to go through it. These test will happen in the near future.
I may be a tad outdated but I just like the idea of dealing with the cards you are dealt.
I do understand what you are saying and I am glad that your parents chose to have you. You are correct; your condition was treated and you are living a healthy and normal life
My point was simply this; tests or no tests, abortions are being carried out in the here and now. I am neither supportive nor against these as I do not know the circumstances these women must be facing. I can imagine though that whatever their circumstances, their decision can't be an easy one
If I was told that my unborn child will have a condition where he will be left in a wheelchair and will be unable to fend for himself, I think that I will decide not to bring that life into this rather cruel world. This is ofcourse hypothetical as I am not facing this for real
I would like a battery of tests to be done not only to be able to decide whether to terminate the pregancy or not but to also be forewarned as to the difficulties which I might need to prepare myself for if I were to have the child"
But doctors do seem to have to say the worse case senorios which would put people off. My mother was told her son would not talk, read or write need to be in a wheel chair but she treated him the same as the rest of us, took him longer but he is a funtioning adult.
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Whilst I agree that many Downs children go on to lead 'good' lives with jobs, relationships etc - there are still a percentage who effectively remain 'toddlers' all their lives - incontinent with little speech - these are the downs children at the other end of the spectrum - and they are generally kept away from society!
Let's not pretend that it's anything other than devastating emotionally, physically and financially if you have a child at this end of the spectrum! Also, as downs is more common in older parents, the responsibility for that child (now an incontinent adult who can't communicate) is passed to siblings when the parents die/are too old to cope!
I've worked with the most extreme autistic cases and I can assure you they have little/no quality of life and their families go through hell!
If a test could indicate the extremity as well as the gene - that would be fantastic! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I thought there already was a test to find out if the baby had downs syndrome, so why do we need another one?
Currently there are two tests. The first doesn't give a clear answer, just a probability. If the probability is high, then a second test can be performed. This second test is far more accurate, but has a high chance of triggering a miscarriage, regardless of the health of the baby.
The new test is far safer, but still very accurate, and is based on tiny amounts of the baby's blood found in the mother's blood. Hence why they will also be able to screen for other disorders.
The worry is that Downs may be being used as the thin end of an almost infinite wedge.
None of it sounds very good to me, i think the old test was just as good, it would depend on how many people had miscarried because of it with healthy fetuses, if it had downs syndrome or something else then it wouldnt matter as it would be for the best."
the old test was invasive and done at a late stage of pregnancy... and miscarriage isnt pretty for any reason and some may want to know just to be forewarned. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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With future medical science it may of course be possible to screen would be mothers before conception and treat any gene abnormalities at a very early stage of pregnancy. That would be the ideal outcome. So may be it is too early to judge just yet. |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"With future medical science it may of course be possible to screen would be mothers before conception and treat any gene abnormalities at a very early stage of pregnancy. That would be the ideal outcome. So may be it is too early to judge just yet."
Yes; gene therapy at embryo stage. Sounds like sci-fi but one day it will be real |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"With future medical science it may of course be possible to screen would be mothers before conception and treat any gene abnormalities at a very early stage of pregnancy. That would be the ideal outcome. So may be it is too early to judge just yet.
Yes; gene therapy at embryo stage. Sounds like sci-fi but one day it will be real"
Would that be consider test tube baby. A few eggs and sperm see which ones have no abnomalitys and plant them in a womb or I think at one stage they won't need a women they makes like pods like out of the matrix |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"With future medical science it may of course be possible to screen would be mothers before conception and treat any gene abnormalities at a very early stage of pregnancy. That would be the ideal outcome. So may be it is too early to judge just yet.
Yes; gene therapy at embryo stage. Sounds like sci-fi but one day it will be real
Would that be consider test tube baby. A few eggs and sperm see which ones have no abnomalitys and plant them in a womb or I think at one stage they won't need a women they makes like pods like out of the matrix "
I don't know the answer to that
But I would like to see a world where babies born do not suffer
I don't see why the normal procreation process could not continue as is with the addition of tests and gene therapy, where required
It isn't much different to medical intervention after birth but for the fact that it is later in life |
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Good morning all, I have watched this thread since yesterday and have read all points and opinions, I have a little different side to the argument from personal experience.
We were told with our middle little person that we had positive blood results for downs and Edwards syndrome, we had to decide whether to have amino, bearing in mind this can't be done until after 20 weeks, and does carry a risk of miscarriage, we had a scan first, we were told the downs markers seemed OK, although not definitive but the Edwards couldn't be picked up on scan, so we made the decision to have amnio, our reason was to prepare.
Amnio tests came back clear for downs but positive for Edwards we were faced with the decision to keep him or not, we kept him.
We were given lots of information, one thing we were asked to consider was the effect having a disabled child could have on siblings( that was if he survived).
We carried on with the rest of our pregnancy being positive, there was still a slight chance that the test results could be wrong.
They were, our little person was born a beautiful little boy without Edwards syndrome.
By an odd twist it has turned out that he has other disabilities but they are not related in anyway and would never have been picked up and tests.
If we had terminated then we would have had results from tests they would do, that would have told us that there was no abnormality present, and we would have known for all our lives that we did the wrong thing .
It is the hardest decision any parents will ever have to make but only they can make it and they should never compare themselves to others because none of us are the same, we don't live the same lives, we don't have the same strengths or weaknesses, I will forever be grateful for how blessed we have been, and I will always support others in the journey they take in this situation whatever path they choose.
Mrs blue eyes |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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To anyone who hasn't had a child born with a condition.. or been in the situation of needing the tests... you really have no idea..
There have been times in my daughters life where she has been in a right state through inability to do something.. recently she has realised how different she is from her siblings and asked why mummy cant make her better.... i am very positive with her and always have been but watching your child suffer and knowing you can not help.. well its agonising...
Then there is the worry about what if something happened to me... luckily my daughter is quite goos cognitively speaking and has very few health problems but in many ways she is stuck at toddler ability.
She has no concept on stranger danger.. no matter how much myself and school try to instill it into her.. which is a huge worry now she is older...
While id not change having my daughter for anything ... id not dress it up as anything but a long hard sometimes heartbreaking labour of love with her... and i am honest that if id known in advance i may not have took the chance. As it is i didnt even find out till i was being discharged from hospital and a junior doctor made the suggestion..
I was then sent to a side ward and informed if i didnt want to take my baby home with me they understood.... this just reacted a very very strong protective mothering instinct so much so i refused to believe their diagnosis for a year...
Its hard choice and it should remain a choice that isn't influenced by guilt...
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"To anyone who hasn't had a child born with a condition.. or been in the situation of needing the tests... you really have no idea..
There have been times in my daughters life where she has been in a right state through inability to do something.. recently she has realised how different she is from her siblings and asked why mummy cant make her better.... i am very positive with her and always have been but watching your child suffer and knowing you can not help.. well its agonising...
Then there is the worry about what if something happened to me... luckily my daughter is quite goos cognitively speaking and has very few health problems but in many ways she is stuck at toddler ability.
She has no concept on stranger danger.. no matter how much myself and school try to instill it into her.. which is a huge worry now she is older...
While id not change having my daughter for anything ... id not dress it up as anything but a long hard sometimes heartbreaking labour of love with her... and i am honest that if id known in advance i may not have took the chance. As it is i didnt even find out till i was being discharged from hospital and a junior doctor made the suggestion..
I was then sent to a side ward and informed if i didnt want to take my baby home with me they understood.... this just reacted a very very strong protective mothering instinct so much so i refused to believe their diagnosis for a year...
Its hard choice and it should remain a choice that isn't influenced by guilt...
"
Cali your post resonates with me on lots of levels. My boy is just realising he is different too and it's so very difficult for us all.
Nothing much else to add except a knowing head nod, I get it xx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Good morning all, I have watched this thread since yesterday and have read all points and opinions, I have a little different side to the argument from personal experience.
We were told with our middle little person that we had positive blood results for downs and Edwards syndrome, we had to decide whether to have amino, bearing in mind this can't be done until after 20 weeks, and does carry a risk of miscarriage, we had a scan first, we were told the downs markers seemed OK, although not definitive but the Edwards couldn't be picked up on scan, so we made the decision to have amnio, our reason was to prepare.
Amnio tests came back clear for downs but positive for Edwards we were faced with the decision to keep him or not, we kept him.
We were given lots of information, one thing we were asked to consider was the effect having a disabled child could have on siblings( that was if he survived).
We carried on with the rest of our pregnancy being positive, there was still a slight chance that the test results could be wrong.
They were, our little person was born a beautiful little boy without Edwards syndrome.
By an odd twist it has turned out that he has other disabilities but they are not related in anyway and would never have been picked up and tests.
If we had terminated then we would have had results from tests they would do, that would have told us that there was no abnormality present, and we would have known for all our lives that we did the wrong thing .
It is the hardest decision any parents will ever have to make but only they can make it and they should never compare themselves to others because none of us are the same, we don't live the same lives, we don't have the same strengths or weaknesses, I will forever be grateful for how blessed we have been, and I will always support others in the journey they take in this situation whatever path they choose.
Mrs blue eyes"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm still not sure what I can contribute to this thread, but to those of you sharing your own experiences of raising a disabled child: thank you for sharing something so personal. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Sadly on here yet again I feel some people need to do research and collect the right info prior to posting.
Perhaps whatch the show before airing views.
I've just caught up and thought it documented well and highlighted many failings for a child/person with downs.
I do NOT believe having a child with downs is a good enough reason to have a top!. However before I'm torn apart I do feel if a family is told the fetus does not have a sustainable life then a top should be used.
Downs 40 years ago is very different than today due to medical advances. Years ago children born with downs are thought to only live a few years due to other complications such as asd/vsd heart conditions, I would like to point out any child could have those problems and they be fixed as a child
With downs has giving them a healthy life for many years.
I think the new test is brilliant as it takes away risk of the amniotic sack being damaged and miscarriage happening. I do worry as with Iceland that many when found out would top the child the statistics prove this with a 100% top record for downs diagnosis. This in my view is down to the need for a perfect child.
But what is a perfect child??? I see any child as perfect no matter what condition it does or doesn't have.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sadly on here yet again I feel some people need to do research and collect the right info prior to posting.
Perhaps whatch the show before airing views.
I've just caught up and thought it documented well and highlighted many failings for a child/person with downs.
I do NOT believe having a child with downs is a good enough reason to have a top!. However before I'm torn apart I do feel if a family is told the fetus does not have a sustainable life then a top should be used.
Downs 40 years ago is very different than today due to medical advances. Years ago children born with downs are thought to only live a few years due to other complications such as asd/vsd heart conditions, I would like to point out any child could have those problems and they be fixed as a child
With downs has giving them a healthy life for many years.
I think the new test is brilliant as it takes away risk of the amniotic sack being damaged and miscarriage happening. I do worry as with Iceland that many when found out would top the child the statistics prove this with a 100% top record for downs diagnosis. This in my view is down to the need for a perfect child.
But what is a perfect child??? I see any child as perfect no matter what condition it does or doesn't have.
"
im sorry but what gives you the right to say that Downs is not s reason to terminate..... |
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"Sadly on here yet again I feel some people need to do research and collect the right info prior to posting.
Perhaps whatch the show before airing views.
I've just caught up and thought it documented well and highlighted many failings for a child/person with downs.
I do NOT believe having a child with downs is a good enough reason to have a top!. However before I'm torn apart I do feel if a family is told the fetus does not have a sustainable life then a top should be used.
Downs 40 years ago is very different than today due to medical advances. Years ago children born with downs are thought to only live a few years due to other complications such as asd/vsd heart conditions, I would like to point out any child could have those problems and they be fixed as a child
With downs has giving them a healthy life for many years.
I think the new test is brilliant as it takes away risk of the amniotic sack being damaged and miscarriage happening. I do worry as with Iceland that many when found out would top the child the statistics prove this with a 100% top record for downs diagnosis. This in my view is down to the need for a perfect child.
But what is a perfect child??? I see any child as perfect no matter what condition it does or doesn't have.
"
Everyone should by rights have a perfect child, one that is born with no health problems and is hopefuly going to be inteligent as well. |
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"With future medical science it may of course be possible to screen would be mothers before conception and treat any gene abnormalities at a very early stage of pregnancy. That would be the ideal outcome. So may be it is too early to judge just yet.
Yes; gene therapy at embryo stage. Sounds like sci-fi but one day it will be real
Would that be consider test tube baby. A few eggs and sperm see which ones have no abnomalitys and plant them in a womb or I think at one stage they won't need a women they makes like pods like out of the matrix "
This type of testing is in use already. For some couples who have had multiple miscarriages and a genetic cause has been established it is used in conjunction with ivf to enable them to screen the healthy embryos and give a higher chance of successful pregnancy.
My friend has a six year old conceived in this way after having had one still birth and 6 miscarriages |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sadly on here yet again I feel some people need to do research and collect the right info prior to posting.
Perhaps whatch the show before airing views.
I've just caught up and thought it documented well and highlighted many failings for a child/person with downs.
I do NOT believe having a child with downs is a good enough reason to have a top!. However before I'm torn apart I do feel if a family is told the fetus does not have a sustainable life then a top should be used.
Downs 40 years ago is very different than today due to medical advances. Years ago children born with downs are thought to only live a few years due to other complications such as asd/vsd heart conditions, I would like to point out any child could have those problems and they be fixed as a child
With downs has giving them a healthy life for many years.
I think the new test is brilliant as it takes away risk of the amniotic sack being damaged and miscarriage happening. I do worry as with Iceland that many when found out would top the child the statistics prove this with a 100% top record for downs diagnosis. This in my view is down to the need for a perfect child.
But what is a perfect child??? I see any child as perfect no matter what condition it does or doesn't have.
im sorry but what gives you the right to say that Downs is not s reason to terminate..... "
I don't feel a child having downs is a issue as they can live a perfectly viable life as do other children who have bigger issues.
Everyone wants a perfect child but sadly life doesn't always give everyone that. So why terminate a child because it has downs?. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sadly on here yet again I feel some people need to do research and collect the right info prior to posting.
Perhaps whatch the show before airing views.
I've just caught up and thought it documented well and highlighted many failings for a child/person with downs.
I do NOT believe having a child with downs is a good enough reason to have a top!. However before I'm torn apart I do feel if a family is told the fetus does not have a sustainable life then a top should be used.
Downs 40 years ago is very different than today due to medical advances. Years ago children born with downs are thought to only live a few years due to other complications such as asd/vsd heart conditions, I would like to point out any child could have those problems and they be fixed as a child
With downs has giving them a healthy life for many years.
I think the new test is brilliant as it takes away risk of the amniotic sack being damaged and miscarriage happening. I do worry as with Iceland that many when found out would top the child the statistics prove this with a 100% top record for downs diagnosis. This in my view is down to the need for a perfect child.
But what is a perfect child??? I see any child as perfect no matter what condition it does or doesn't have.
im sorry but what gives you the right to say that Downs is not s reason to terminate.....
I don't feel a child having downs is a issue as they can live a perfectly viable life as do other children who have bigger issues.
Everyone wants a perfect child but sadly life doesn't always give everyone that. So why terminate a child because it has downs?. "
because its there choice... and yes a child with downs can have live.... but dont for one minute think its easy.... and not everyone can cope.
I didn't have the choice as didn't know till after id had my daughter but im honest enough to admit had I known then I can not say id know what choice Id make... and to be perfectly honest.. yes I think Id have terminated.
There is a lot of help available now... I talk to new and expecting parents about the reality... not always the positive either as you need to know.... |
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"100% terminations for those who have had the new test in Iceland.
And do they have a choice ? Or is termination being forced upon them ?
It's a choice but the programme is arguing that the choice is in the context of this being cultural norm to terminate.
The programme is being presented from the perspective of a mother with a Downs child.
"
This is a very scary cultural norm and one which needs to be challenged. A society should always be judged by how it treats its vulnerable members. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sadly on here yet again I feel some people need to do research and collect the right info prior to posting.
Perhaps whatch the show before airing views.
I've just caught up and thought it documented well and highlighted many failings for a child/person with downs.
I do NOT believe having a child with downs is a good enough reason to have a top!. However before I'm torn apart I do feel if a family is told the fetus does not have a sustainable life then a top should be used.
Downs 40 years ago is very different than today due to medical advances. Years ago children born with downs are thought to only live a few years due to other complications such as asd/vsd heart conditions, I would like to point out any child could have those problems and they be fixed as a child
With downs has giving them a healthy life for many years.
I think the new test is brilliant as it takes away risk of the amniotic sack being damaged and miscarriage happening. I do worry as with Iceland that many when found out would top the child the statistics prove this with a 100% top record for downs diagnosis. This in my view is down to the need for a perfect child.
But what is a perfect child??? I see any child as perfect no matter what condition it does or doesn't have.
im sorry but what gives you the right to say that Downs is not s reason to terminate.....
I don't feel a child having downs is a issue as they can live a perfectly viable life as do other children who have bigger issues.
Everyone wants a perfect child but sadly life doesn't always give everyone that. So why terminate a child because it has downs?. because its there choice... and yes a child with downs can have live.... but dont for one minute think its easy.... and not everyone can cope.
I didn't have the choice as didn't know till after id had my daughter but im honest enough to admit had I known then I can not say id know what choice Id make... and to be perfectly honest.. yes I think Id have terminated.
There is a lot of help available now... I talk to new and expecting parents about the reality... not always the positive either as you need to know.... "
Please don't assume I don't know, I do and very well I've been caring for umpteen children with more severe problems for the last 10 years and love every second.
I know there are funding issues for some that need more care than parents can give as a lady said above and I've been involved in care plan meetings and setting out care plans with social services and NHS.
To me every child matters no matter if they are healthy or have issues, they have the right to lead the best life they can and be nurtured to do so.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sadly on here yet again I feel some people need to do research and collect the right info prior to posting.
Perhaps whatch the show before airing views.
I've just caught up and thought it documented well and highlighted many failings for a child/person with downs.
I do NOT believe having a child with downs is a good enough reason to have a top!. However before I'm torn apart I do feel if a family is told the fetus does not have a sustainable life then a top should be used.
Downs 40 years ago is very different than today due to medical advances. Years ago children born with downs are thought to only live a few years due to other complications such as asd/vsd heart conditions, I would like to point out any child could have those problems and they be fixed as a child
With downs has giving them a healthy life for many years.
I think the new test is brilliant as it takes away risk of the amniotic sack being damaged and miscarriage happening. I do worry as with Iceland that many when found out would top the child the statistics prove this with a 100% top record for downs diagnosis. This in my view is down to the need for a perfect child.
But what is a perfect child??? I see any child as perfect no matter what condition it does or doesn't have.
im sorry but what gives you the right to say that Downs is not s reason to terminate.....
I don't feel a child having downs is a issue as they can live a perfectly viable life as do other children who have bigger issues.
Everyone wants a perfect child but sadly life doesn't always give everyone that. So why terminate a child because it has downs?. because its there choice... and yes a child with downs can have live.... but dont for one minute think its easy.... and not everyone can cope.
I didn't have the choice as didn't know till after id had my daughter but im honest enough to admit had I known then I can not say id know what choice Id make... and to be perfectly honest.. yes I think Id have terminated.
There is a lot of help available now... I talk to new and expecting parents about the reality... not always the positive either as you need to know....
Please don't assume I don't know, I do and very well I've been caring for umpteen children with more severe problems for the last 10 years and love every second.
I know there are funding issues for some that need more care than parents can give as a lady said above and I've been involved in care plan meetings and setting out care plans with social services and NHS.
To me every child matters no matter if they are healthy or have issues, they have the right to lead the best life they can and be nurtured to do so.
"
I have cared for other children with other difficulties ans its not the same as the responsibility of having my own child full time but a parent should still have the choice... and if the new test is less invasive then its a good thing.
But I would guess we sit on opposite sides of the abortion idea.. for me it is a choice and do believe that the responsibility I face daily should not be forced on anyone... but the current positive outlook is a good one... There is a new campaign from the downs association which is all about the positive side of being a parent of a child with downs. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sadly on here yet again I feel some people need to do research and collect the right info prior to posting.
Perhaps whatch the show before airing views.
I've just caught up and thought it documented well and highlighted many failings for a child/person with downs.
I do NOT believe having a child with downs is a good enough reason to have a top!. However before I'm torn apart I do feel if a family is told the fetus does not have a sustainable life then a top should be used.
Downs 40 years ago is very different than today due to medical advances. Years ago children born with downs are thought to only live a few years due to other complications such as asd/vsd heart conditions, I would like to point out any child could have those problems and they be fixed as a child
With downs has giving them a healthy life for many years.
I think the new test is brilliant as it takes away risk of the amniotic sack being damaged and miscarriage happening. I do worry as with Iceland that many when found out would top the child the statistics prove this with a 100% top record for downs diagnosis. This in my view is down to the need for a perfect child.
But what is a perfect child??? I see any child as perfect no matter what condition it does or doesn't have.
im sorry but what gives you the right to say that Downs is not s reason to terminate.....
I don't feel a child having downs is a issue as they can live a perfectly viable life as do other children who have bigger issues.
Everyone wants a perfect child but sadly life doesn't always give everyone that. So why terminate a child because it has downs?. because its there choice... and yes a child with downs can have live.... but dont for one minute think its easy.... and not everyone can cope.
I didn't have the choice as didn't know till after id had my daughter but im honest enough to admit had I known then I can not say id know what choice Id make... and to be perfectly honest.. yes I think Id have terminated.
There is a lot of help available now... I talk to new and expecting parents about the reality... not always the positive either as you need to know....
Please don't assume I don't know, I do and very well I've been caring for umpteen children with more severe problems for the last 10 years and love every second.
I know there are funding issues for some that need more care than parents can give as a lady said above and I've been involved in care plan meetings and setting out care plans with social services and NHS.
To me every child matters no matter if they are healthy or have issues, they have the right to lead the best life they can and be nurtured to do so.
I have cared for other children with other difficulties ans its not the same as the responsibility of having my own child full time but a parent should still have the choice... and if the new test is less invasive then its a good thing.
But I would guess we sit on opposite sides of the abortion idea.. for me it is a choice and do believe that the responsibility I face daily should not be forced on anyone... but the current positive outlook is a good one... There is a new campaign from the downs association which is all about the positive side of being a parent of a child with downs. "
Yes we do sit on the opposite side of the abortion idea as I don't see a child with downs being any more stressful than say a child with autism or a healthy child but that's just me
Let's face it in this day and age parenting a healthy child is a struggle for some let alone a child with a special need. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Sadly on here yet again I feel some people need to do research and collect the right info prior to posting.
Perhaps whatch the show before airing views.
I've just caught up and thought it documented well and highlighted many failings for a child/person with downs.
I do NOT believe having a child with downs is a good enough reason to have a top!. However before I'm torn apart I do feel if a family is told the fetus does not have a sustainable life then a top should be used.
Downs 40 years ago is very different than today due to medical advances. Years ago children born with downs are thought to only live a few years due to other complications such as asd/vsd heart conditions, I would like to point out any child could have those problems and they be fixed as a child
With downs has giving them a healthy life for many years.
I think the new test is brilliant as it takes away risk of the amniotic sack being damaged and miscarriage happening. I do worry as with Iceland that many when found out would top the child the statistics prove this with a 100% top record for downs diagnosis. This in my view is down to the need for a perfect child.
But what is a perfect child??? I see any child as perfect no matter what condition it does or doesn't have.
im sorry but what gives you the right to say that Downs is not s reason to terminate.....
I don't feel a child having downs is a issue as they can live a perfectly viable life as do other children who have bigger issues.
Everyone wants a perfect child but sadly life doesn't always give everyone that. So why terminate a child because it has downs?. because its there choice... and yes a child with downs can have live.... but dont for one minute think its easy.... and not everyone can cope.
I didn't have the choice as didn't know till after id had my daughter but im honest enough to admit had I known then I can not say id know what choice Id make... and to be perfectly honest.. yes I think Id have terminated.
There is a lot of help available now... I talk to new and expecting parents about the reality... not always the positive either as you need to know....
Please don't assume I don't know, I do and very well I've been caring for umpteen children with more severe problems for the last 10 years and love every second.
I know there are funding issues for some that need more care than parents can give as a lady said above and I've been involved in care plan meetings and setting out care plans with social services and NHS.
To me every child matters no matter if they are healthy or have issues, they have the right to lead the best life they can and be nurtured to do so.
I have cared for other children with other difficulties ans its not the same as the responsibility of having my own child full time but a parent should still have the choice... and if the new test is less invasive then its a good thing.
But I would guess we sit on opposite sides of the abortion idea.. for me it is a choice and do believe that the responsibility I face daily should not be forced on anyone... but the current positive outlook is a good one... There is a new campaign from the downs association which is all about the positive side of being a parent of a child with downs.
Yes we do sit on the opposite side of the abortion idea as I don't see a child with downs being any more stressful than say a child with autism or a healthy child but that's just me
Let's face it in this day and age parenting a healthy child is a struggle for some let alone a child with a special need. "
i've brought up 2 children with special needs, neither of them down syndrome but still one needed operations and is pretty much fine (in top sets for everything at school but has issues with communication as it was that that affected him for 7 years before his operations) and the other is probably mentally screwed up for life now - but because of how society is rather than his special needs being a huge problem.
much as i love all of my children i do think my special needs kids have been a lot more hard work than my 'normal' kids. there hasn't been any support more than free help from the NHS with physical disabilities. it's ok, we found other people in the same situation and i've had a lot of help from them, but the official people who are supposed to help ae so over funded they might as well not have existed in our case. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Yes we do sit on the opposite side of the abortion idea as I don't see a child with downs being any more stressful than say a child with autism or a healthy child but that's just me
Let's face it in this day and age parenting a healthy child is a struggle for some let alone a child with a special need. "
id love to have your idealistic view and as a parent of a child who is now an adult with downs I can tell you it is a lot more strain and stress than living with a child without...
And if i had the choice... chances are id of chosen not to carry on... and my daughter has very few of the medical issues.. but its still been one long hard struggle. My family hasn't had a holiday in over 5 years due to the difficulties my daughter would have... there is no respite care available and the only down time I get is occassional evenings out.. which time gets spent checking up on how things are...
No one should have to face those consequences and without the risk of miscarriage being so high the new test is a good thing...
Oh and just for the record I do have another child with other special needs and he has challenges of his own but still far easier as he doesn't look different. As my daughter learns more about downs she asks me to make her better... or when will it go away.... its heartbreaking..... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Yes we do sit on the opposite side of the abortion idea as I don't see a child with downs being any more stressful than say a child with autism or a healthy child but that's just me
Let's face it in this day and age parenting a healthy child is a struggle for some let alone a child with a special need. id love to have your idealistic view and as a parent of a child who is now an adult with downs I can tell you it is a lot more strain and stress than living with a child without...
And if i had the choice... chances are id of chosen not to carry on... and my daughter has very few of the medical issues.. but its still been one long hard struggle. My family hasn't had a holiday in over 5 years due to the difficulties my daughter would have... there is no respite care available and the only down time I get is occassional evenings out.. which time gets spent checking up on how things are...
No one should have to face those consequences and without the risk of miscarriage being so high the new test is a good thing...
Oh and just for the record I do have another child with other special needs and he has challenges of his own but still far easier as he doesn't look different. As my daughter learns more about downs she asks me to make her better... or when will it go away.... its heartbreaking..... "
There are a lot of parents with healthy children that haven't had a holiday in more years than that too and struggle many don't have nights out without the kids.
I'm not belittling your situation at all, far from it I'm saying I find downs a relatively mild condition compared to some children's more complex needs.
As for respite care a children's hospice's do cover care for children and families with special needs. There are charities such as starlight and make a wish who provide holidays and days away etc.
Which I'm sure you know, although you possibly won't see it the same way as me your very lucky your daughter had very few medical needs, I'm comparing downs to those children the ones unable to do anything for them selfs that's all.
Everyone in the world is different.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Yes we do sit on the opposite side of the abortion idea as I don't see a child with downs being any more stressful than say a child with autism or a healthy child but that's just me
Let's face it in this day and age parenting a healthy child is a struggle for some let alone a child with a special need. id love to have your idealistic view and as a parent of a child who is now an adult with downs I can tell you it is a lot more strain and stress than living with a child without...
And if i had the choice... chances are id of chosen not to carry on... and my daughter has very few of the medical issues.. but its still been one long hard struggle. My family hasn't had a holiday in over 5 years due to the difficulties my daughter would have... there is no respite care available and the only down time I get is occassional evenings out.. which time gets spent checking up on how things are...
No one should have to face those consequences and without the risk of miscarriage being so high the new test is a good thing...
Oh and just for the record I do have another child with other special needs and he has challenges of his own but still far easier as he doesn't look different. As my daughter learns more about downs she asks me to make her better... or when will it go away.... its heartbreaking.....
There are a lot of parents with healthy children that haven't had a holiday in more years than that too and struggle many don't have nights out without the kids.
I'm not belittling your situation at all, far from it I'm saying I find downs a relatively mild condition compared to some children's more complex needs.
As for respite care a children's hospice's do cover care for children and families with special needs. There are charities such as starlight and make a wish who provide holidays and days away etc.
Which I'm sure you know, although you possibly won't see it the same way as me your very lucky your daughter had very few medical needs, I'm comparing downs to those children the ones unable to do anything for them selfs that's all.
Everyone in the world is different.
"
Yes there are things like that available but when you're already over stretched, over tired and overwhelmed, the prospect of filling out those application forms and having to list all the shit stuff, like giant giant kick in the face reminder of how different your child is, is too much. Soul destroying. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Yes we do sit on the opposite side of the abortion idea as I don't see a child with downs being any more stressful than say a child with autism or a healthy child but that's just me
Let's face it in this day and age parenting a healthy child is a struggle for some let alone a child with a special need. id love to have your idealistic view and as a parent of a child who is now an adult with downs I can tell you it is a lot more strain and stress than living with a child without...
And if i had the choice... chances are id of chosen not to carry on... and my daughter has very few of the medical issues.. but its still been one long hard struggle. My family hasn't had a holiday in over 5 years due to the difficulties my daughter would have... there is no respite care available and the only down time I get is occassional evenings out.. which time gets spent checking up on how things are...
No one should have to face those consequences and without the risk of miscarriage being so high the new test is a good thing...
Oh and just for the record I do have another child with other special needs and he has challenges of his own but still far easier as he doesn't look different. As my daughter learns more about downs she asks me to make her better... or when will it go away.... its heartbreaking.....
There are a lot of parents with healthy children that haven't had a holiday in more years than that too and struggle many don't have nights out without the kids.
I'm not belittling your situation at all, far from it I'm saying I find downs a relatively mild condition compared to some children's more complex needs.
As for respite care a children's hospice's do cover care for children and families with special needs. There are charities such as starlight and make a wish who provide holidays and days away etc.
Which I'm sure you know, although you possibly won't see it the same way as me your very lucky your daughter had very few medical needs, I'm comparing downs to those children the ones unable to do anything for them selfs that's all.
Everyone in the world is different.
"
I'm not being patronising either but have you got a child with downs?? I have and completely agree with Cali
The programme did not give a true account of the struggles of looking after a child with downs can be. If you do not have all the facts, how can anyone make an informed choice
Yes I'm a parent with a down syndrome child so this subject is very touchy and I'm sure emotions will be running high with most of us.
I love my daughter very much that has downs, no more or less then my other children that haven't. Would I encourage my daughter without downs to be tested?? Hell yes, and would I encourage her to terminate a foetus that has a positive result.. too bloody right I would... I don't want my daughter to have the life I've experienced with downs.. yes the child's condition could be 'better' then what I've experienced but it also could be allot worse.
Not once did the programme cover what a constant struggle it is to have a child with downs on the rest of the family, the fight you have constantly within society let alone the additional support you need to give your child. Yes support is out there but not always accessible or available.
I do value my daughters life and feel she has quality of life, compared to those you described as having a severe disability.. will she ever work? Nope, at nearly 16 she has a mental ability of a five year old and cannot even say her name. She needs constant supervision and will do for the rest of her life.
Would this be the choice most parents would chose if they were honest and had the option? At the end of the day it's not you looking after that child, it's them and in my case the state once she's older; so your taxes. I still need to work to provide for my family so who then looks after my daughter with downs when she is old enough but unable to work?
It's not just about the test here.. it's a lifetime of questions you need to consider. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Yes we do sit on the opposite side of the abortion idea as I don't see a child with downs being any more stressful than say a child with autism or a healthy child but that's just me
Let's face it in this day and age parenting a healthy child is a struggle for some let alone a child with a special need. id love to have your idealistic view and as a parent of a child who is now an adult with downs I can tell you it is a lot more strain and stress than living with a child without...
And if i had the choice... chances are id of chosen not to carry on... and my daughter has very few of the medical issues.. but its still been one long hard struggle. My family hasn't had a holiday in over 5 years due to the difficulties my daughter would have... there is no respite care available and the only down time I get is occassional evenings out.. which time gets spent checking up on how things are...
No one should have to face those consequences and without the risk of miscarriage being so high the new test is a good thing...
Oh and just for the record I do have another child with other special needs and he has challenges of his own but still far easier as he doesn't look different. As my daughter learns more about downs she asks me to make her better... or when will it go away.... its heartbreaking.....
There are a lot of parents with healthy children that haven't had a holiday in more years than that too and struggle many don't have nights out without the kids.
I'm not belittling your situation at all, far from it I'm saying I find downs a relatively mild condition compared to some children's more complex needs.
As for respite care a children's hospice's do cover care for children and families with special needs. There are charities such as starlight and make a wish who provide holidays and days away etc.
Which I'm sure you know, although you possibly won't see it the same way as me your very lucky your daughter had very few medical needs, I'm comparing downs to those children the ones unable to do anything for them selfs that's all.
Everyone in the world is different.
I'm not being patronising either but have you got a child with downs?? I have and completely agree with Cali
The programme did not give a true account of the struggles of looking after a child with downs can be. If you do not have all the facts, how can anyone make an informed choice
Yes I'm a parent with a down syndrome child so this subject is very touchy and I'm sure emotions will be running high with most of us.
I love my daughter very much that has downs, no more or less then my other children that haven't. Would I encourage my daughter without downs to be tested?? Hell yes, and would I encourage her to terminate a foetus that has a positive result.. too bloody right I would... I don't want my daughter to have the life I've experienced with downs.. yes the child's condition could be 'better' then what I've experienced but it also could be allot worse.
Not once did the programme cover what a constant struggle it is to have a child with downs on the rest of the family, the fight you have constantly within society let alone the additional support you need to give your child. Yes support is out there but not always accessible or available.
I do value my daughters life and feel she has quality of life, compared to those you described as having a severe disability.. will she ever work? Nope, at nearly 16 she has a mental ability of a five year old and cannot even say her name. She needs constant supervision and will do for the rest of her life.
Would this be the choice most parents would chose if they were honest and had the option? At the end of the day it's not you looking after that child, it's them and in my case the state once she's older; so your taxes. I still need to work to provide for my family so who then looks after my daughter with downs when she is old enough but unable to work?
It's not just about the test here.. it's a lifetime of questions you need to consider."
My understanding of the show was to highlight the new testing not what it's like to raise a child with downs.
And no I don't have a child YET with downs, I don't have children sadly cancer robbed me of that pleasure in life.
I have no doubt in my mind how hard it is raising a child with downs or a child with any special need for that matter.
I just see children with downs at the opposite end of the spectrum to say a child with infantile spasms and hydrocephaly who are unable to enjoy the simple pleasures a child has like eating ice cream or paddling in the sea. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" I have no doubt in my mind how hard it is raising a child with downs or a child with any special need for that matter.
I just see children with downs at the opposite end of the spectrum to say a child with infantile spasms and hydrocephaly who are unable to enjoy the simple pleasures a child has like eating ice cream or paddling in the sea. "
So eating ice cream and paddling in the sea makes up for the endless invasive surgeries, the constant appointments and painful therapies our children undergo?!
If only it was that simple. You have no idea. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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You should not be made to take the test. I understand both sides so can see why some would terminate a pregnancy and others wouldn't. It's a lifelong commitment having a Downs Syndrome child and also a worry what will happen when, you, the parent is no longer able to cope and care for that child/adult. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" I have no doubt in my mind how hard it is raising a child with downs or a child with any special need for that matter.
I just see children with downs at the opposite end of the spectrum to say a child with infantile spasms and hydrocephaly who are unable to enjoy the simple pleasures a child has like eating ice cream or paddling in the sea.
So eating ice cream and paddling in the sea makes up for the endless invasive surgeries, the constant appointments and painful therapies our children undergo?!
If only it was that simple. You have no idea."
Did I say that??? And your right I clearly have no idea that's why I've chosen to give my career up and foster a child with complex special needs how selfish am I. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Yes we do sit on the opposite side of the abortion idea as I don't see a child with downs being any more stressful than say a child with autism or a healthy child but that's just me
Let's face it in this day and age parenting a healthy child is a struggle for some let alone a child with a special need. id love to have your idealistic view and as a parent of a child who is now an adult with downs I can tell you it is a lot more strain and stress than living with a child without...
And if i had the choice... chances are id of chosen not to carry on... and my daughter has very few of the medical issues.. but its still been one long hard struggle. My family hasn't had a holiday in over 5 years due to the difficulties my daughter would have... there is no respite care available and the only down time I get is occassional evenings out.. which time gets spent checking up on how things are...
No one should have to face those consequences and without the risk of miscarriage being so high the new test is a good thing...
Oh and just for the record I do have another child with other special needs and he has challenges of his own but still far easier as he doesn't look different. As my daughter learns more about downs she asks me to make her better... or when will it go away.... its heartbreaking.....
There are a lot of parents with healthy children that haven't had a holiday in more years than that too and struggle many don't have nights out without the kids.
I'm not belittling your situation at all, far from it I'm saying I find downs a relatively mild condition compared to some children's more complex needs.
As for respite care a children's hospice's do cover care for children and families with special needs. There are charities such as starlight and make a wish who provide holidays and days away etc.
Which I'm sure you know, although you possibly won't see it the same way as me your very lucky your daughter had very few medical needs, I'm comparing downs to those children the ones unable to do anything for them selfs that's all.
Everyone in the world is different.
I'm not being patronising either but have you got a child with downs?? I have and completely agree with Cali
The programme did not give a true account of the struggles of looking after a child with downs can be. If you do not have all the facts, how can anyone make an informed choice
Yes I'm a parent with a down syndrome child so this subject is very touchy and I'm sure emotions will be running high with most of us.
I love my daughter very much that has downs, no more or less then my other children that haven't. Would I encourage my daughter without downs to be tested?? Hell yes, and would I encourage her to terminate a foetus that has a positive result.. too bloody right I would... I don't want my daughter to have the life I've experienced with downs.. yes the child's condition could be 'better' then what I've experienced but it also could be allot worse.
Not once did the programme cover what a constant struggle it is to have a child with downs on the rest of the family, the fight you have constantly within society let alone the additional support you need to give your child. Yes support is out there but not always accessible or available.
I do value my daughters life and feel she has quality of life, compared to those you described as having a severe disability.. will she ever work? Nope, at nearly 16 she has a mental ability of a five year old and cannot even say her name. She needs constant supervision and will do for the rest of her life.
Would this be the choice most parents would chose if they were honest and had the option? At the end of the day it's not you looking after that child, it's them and in my case the state once she's older; so your taxes. I still need to work to provide for my family so who then looks after my daughter with downs when she is old enough but unable to work?
It's not just about the test here.. it's a lifetime of questions you need to consider.
My understanding of the show was to highlight the new testing not what it's like to raise a child with downs.
And no I don't have a child YET with downs, I don't have children sadly cancer robbed me of that pleasure in life.
I have no doubt in my mind how hard it is raising a child with downs or a child with any special need for that matter.
I just see children with downs at the opposite end of the spectrum to say a child with infantile spasms and hydrocephaly who are unable to enjoy the simple pleasures a child has like eating ice cream or paddling in the sea. "
Totally agree with you, there are much worse conditions out there then downs. But the show did not highlight what it was like to raise a child with downs syndrome; in fact it hardly touched on the subject at all. I would say it was a highly positive perception of caring for a child with downs.. not the reality of how it actually does affect your life, your family and everything you will do for the rest of your life will be centered around that child.
The hospital appointments, physiotherapy, speech therapy, social workers, assessment after assessment to ensure she is remaining healthy the forms you have to fill in, the guilt you feel towards your other children as you cannot give them as much time as you would like as your main priority (at that time) is getting your child with downs to do the things that they took for granted, like sitting, speaking, learning and understanding.
Non of this was covered in the programme so how can people make an informed choice of what they would do?? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" I have no doubt in my mind how hard it is raising a child with downs or a child with any special need for that matter.
I just see children with downs at the opposite end of the spectrum to say a child with infantile spasms and hydrocephaly who are unable to enjoy the simple pleasures a child has like eating ice cream or paddling in the sea.
So eating ice cream and paddling in the sea makes up for the endless invasive surgeries, the constant appointments and painful therapies our children undergo?!
If only it was that simple. You have no idea.
Did I say that??? And your right I clearly have no idea that's why I've chosen to give my career up and foster a child with complex special needs how selfish am I. "
That may well be the case but you're trivialising MissCali's posts and experience by talking about ice cream! Its a tiny part of dealing with a child with extra needs as you suggest you are doing. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
" I have no doubt in my mind how hard it is raising a child with downs or a child with any special need for that matter.
I just see children with downs at the opposite end of the spectrum to say a child with infantile spasms and hydrocephaly who are unable to enjoy the simple pleasures a child has like eating ice cream or paddling in the sea.
So eating ice cream and paddling in the sea makes up for the endless invasive surgeries, the constant appointments and painful therapies our children undergo?!
If only it was that simple. You have no idea.
Did I say that??? And your right I clearly have no idea that's why I've chosen to give my career up and foster a child with complex special needs how selfish am I. "
You've chosen to do that.
That's what it's all about - choice. Respect that others choose to do what's right for them too |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Yes we do sit on the opposite side of the abortion idea as I don't see a child with downs being any more stressful than say a child with autism or a healthy child but that's just me
Let's face it in this day and age parenting a healthy child is a struggle for some let alone a child with a special need. id love to have your idealistic view and as a parent of a child who is now an adult with downs I can tell you it is a lot more strain and stress than living with a child without...
And if i had the choice... chances are id of chosen not to carry on... and my daughter has very few of the medical issues.. but its still been one long hard struggle. My family hasn't had a holiday in over 5 years due to the difficulties my daughter would have... there is no respite care available and the only down time I get is occassional evenings out.. which time gets spent checking up on how things are...
No one should have to face those consequences and without the risk of miscarriage being so high the new test is a good thing...
Oh and just for the record I do have another child with other special needs and he has challenges of his own but still far easier as he doesn't look different. As my daughter learns more about downs she asks me to make her better... or when will it go away.... its heartbreaking.....
There are a lot of parents with healthy children that haven't had a holiday in more years than that too and struggle many don't have nights out without the kids.
I'm not belittling your situation at all, far from it I'm saying I find downs a relatively mild condition compared to some children's more complex needs.
As for respite care a children's hospice's do cover care for children and families with special needs. There are charities such as starlight and make a wish who provide holidays and days away etc.
Which I'm sure you know, although you possibly won't see it the same way as me your very lucky your daughter had very few medical needs, I'm comparing downs to those children the ones unable to do anything for them selfs that's all.
Everyone in the world is different.
I'm not being patronising either but have you got a child with downs?? I have and completely agree with Cali
The programme did not give a true account of the struggles of looking after a child with downs can be. If you do not have all the facts, how can anyone make an informed choice
Yes I'm a parent with a down syndrome child so this subject is very touchy and I'm sure emotions will be running high with most of us.
I love my daughter very much that has downs, no more or less then my other children that haven't. Would I encourage my daughter without downs to be tested?? Hell yes, and would I encourage her to terminate a foetus that has a positive result.. too bloody right I would... I don't want my daughter to have the life I've experienced with downs.. yes the child's condition could be 'better' then what I've experienced but it also could be allot worse.
Not once did the programme cover what a constant struggle it is to have a child with downs on the rest of the family, the fight you have constantly within society let alone the additional support you need to give your child. Yes support is out there but not always accessible or available.
I do value my daughters life and feel she has quality of life, compared to those you described as having a severe disability.. will she ever work? Nope, at nearly 16 she has a mental ability of a five year old and cannot even say her name. She needs constant supervision and will do for the rest of her life.
Would this be the choice most parents would chose if they were honest and had the option? At the end of the day it's not you looking after that child, it's them and in my case the state once she's older; so your taxes. I still need to work to provide for my family so who then looks after my daughter with downs when she is old enough but unable to work?
It's not just about the test here.. it's a lifetime of questions you need to consider.
My understanding of the show was to highlight the new testing not what it's like to raise a child with downs.
And no I don't have a child YET with downs, I don't have children sadly cancer robbed me of that pleasure in life.
I have no doubt in my mind how hard it is raising a child with downs or a child with any special need for that matter.
I just see children with downs at the opposite end of the spectrum to say a child with infantile spasms and hydrocephaly who are unable to enjoy the simple pleasures a child has like eating ice cream or paddling in the sea.
Totally agree with you, there are much worse conditions out there then downs. But the show did not highlight what it was like to raise a child with downs syndrome; in fact it hardly touched on the subject at all. I would say it was a highly positive perception of caring for a child with downs.. not the reality of how it actually does affect your life, your family and everything you will do for the rest of your life will be centered around that child.
The hospital appointments, physiotherapy, speech therapy, social workers, assessment after assessment to ensure she is remaining healthy the forms you have to fill in, the guilt you feel towards your other children as you cannot give them as much time as you would like as your main priority (at that time) is getting your child with downs to do the things that they took for granted, like sitting, speaking, learning and understanding.
Non of this was covered in the programme so how can people make an informed choice of what they would do?? "
But the programme wasn't set out to be about day to day living with a downs child, it was about the new testing and the implications it could have for the future of downs. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" I have no doubt in my mind how hard it is raising a child with downs or a child with any special need for that matter.
I just see children with downs at the opposite end of the spectrum to say a child with infantile spasms and hydrocephaly who are unable to enjoy the simple pleasures a child has like eating ice cream or paddling in the sea.
So eating ice cream and paddling in the sea makes up for the endless invasive surgeries, the constant appointments and painful therapies our children undergo?!
If only it was that simple. You have no idea.
Did I say that??? And your right I clearly have no idea that's why I've chosen to give my career up and foster a child with complex special needs how selfish am I.
That may well be the case but you're trivialising MissCali's posts and experience by talking about ice cream! Its a tiny part of dealing with a child with extra needs as you suggest you are doing. "
I think you need to re read what I said I did NOT trivialise her post at all and I clearly said i was not belittling her in anyway the point I was making a child with downs has better opertunity than some children with more complex special needs such as paddling or eating ice cream!.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
But the programme wasn't set out to be about day to day living with a downs child, it was about the new testing and the implications it could have for the future of downs. "
I know it wasn't but why not? Why cover half a story?
Sally's son presented very well and so did all the other down syndrome speakers that were on the programme. Where were children that were unable to attend mainstream school?, the ones confined to wheelchairs? The ones that cannot eat ice-cream and paddle in the sea? The ones that need constant supervision and 24 hour care?
To me it wasn't a true representation of the down syndrome community so how can you expect people to make a conformed decision without all the pro's and con's?
Sally Phillips was very bias and one sided with her views possibly because it was a topic close to her heart but it was hardly a true representation.
If I had had my daughter purely on the basis of the programme last night, I would feel very misinformed and cheated. My daughter is by far no means one of the children that cannot eat ice cream and paddle in the sea but nor will she be able to talk, go to main stream school, be fully independent, have a child and questionable if she will even be able to hold a job down. All the things we want for our children.
Is she happy? No more then my other children, she still has major strops when she doesn't get her own way. Is she loving? Again no more then my other children and in fact it grates me when people say "aren't they so loving" no she's not. My son is far more loving then she is. She's loving on her own terms as it's not as frequent as her brother.
It's a matter of choice to have the test and then act upon it, but how can anyone make an informed choice with half the facts?? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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People are having terminations for all sorts of reasons these days, like that woman who was having plastic surgery.
If there is going to be medical problems then surely it is a better reason than pure convenience? |
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I've worked with loads of people with downs. Some are quite independent, going shopping on their own, even some with their own place and so on. Just needed support. Others, as lovely as they were, were a bit like children, needing supervision always.
I could never have an abortion myself, so I wouldn't even want a test. But I can see how some parents wouldn't want to spend all their life caring for a downs child. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
But the programme wasn't set out to be about day to day living with a downs child, it was about the new testing and the implications it could have for the future of downs.
I know it wasn't but why not? Why cover half a story?
Sally's son presented very well and so did all the other down syndrome speakers that were on the programme. Where were children that were unable to attend mainstream school?, the ones confined to wheelchairs? The ones that cannot eat ice-cream and paddle in the sea? The ones that need constant supervision and 24 hour care?
To me it wasn't a true representation of the down syndrome community so how can you expect people to make a conformed decision without all the pro's and con's?
Sally Phillips was very bias and one sided with her views possibly because it was a topic close to her heart but it was hardly a true representation.
If I had had my daughter purely on the basis of the programme last night, I would feel very misinformed and cheated. My daughter is by far no means one of the children that cannot eat ice cream and paddle in the sea but nor will she be able to talk, go to main stream school, be fully independent, have a child and questionable if she will even be able to hold a job down. All the things we want for our children.
Is she happy? No more then my other children, she still has major strops when she doesn't get her own way. Is she loving? Again no more then my other children and in fact it grates me when people say "aren't they so loving" no she's not. My son is far more loving then she is. She's loving on her own terms as it's not as frequent as her brother.
It's a matter of choice to have the test and then act upon it, but how can anyone make an informed choice with half the facts??"
the stereo typical view of downs annoys me too.. like with any disability the spectrum of ability or inability is very varied and not all are able to live independently. |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"
But the programme wasn't set out to be about day to day living with a downs child, it was about the new testing and the implications it could have for the future of downs.
I know it wasn't but why not? Why cover half a story?
Sally's son presented very well and so did all the other down syndrome speakers that were on the programme. Where were children that were unable to attend mainstream school?, the ones confined to wheelchairs? The ones that cannot eat ice-cream and paddle in the sea? The ones that need constant supervision and 24 hour care?
To me it wasn't a true representation of the down syndrome community so how can you expect people to make a conformed decision without all the pro's and con's?
Sally Phillips was very bias and one sided with her views possibly because it was a topic close to her heart but it was hardly a true representation.
If I had had my daughter purely on the basis of the programme last night, I would feel very misinformed and cheated. My daughter is by far no means one of the children that cannot eat ice cream and paddle in the sea but nor will she be able to talk, go to main stream school, be fully independent, have a child and questionable if she will even be able to hold a job down. All the things we want for our children.
Is she happy? No more then my other children, she still has major strops when she doesn't get her own way. Is she loving? Again no more then my other children and in fact it grates me when people say "aren't they so loving" no she's not. My son is far more loving then she is. She's loving on her own terms as it's not as frequent as her brother.
It's a matter of choice to have the test and then act upon it, but how can anyone make an informed choice with half the facts?? the stereo typical view of downs annoys me too.. like with any disability the spectrum of ability or inability is very varied and not all are able to live independently. "
The fact of the matter is that the ones who are severely affected are hardly seen out and about apart from at hospitals, etc
Some, who have the milder form do live in the community but they require help and could not live any kind of a normal life completely unassisted
And like with anything else, the vast majority are somewhere in between; they do have a life but it is far from normal and they do require constant supervision but are probably mobile, etc
That is all from an outsider's point-of-view. I neither have a DS child nor do I know anyone who has one
But I do wonder. Maybe people with DS are happy with their lives and it is the outsiders who apply their norms on them and feel sad and hurt on their behalf |
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By *uzy444Woman
over a year ago
in the suffolk countryside |
my body, my choice. no i didnt have the tests, but i am glad they are there for others to make informed choices. i had an ectopic, which to me felt psychologically like an abortion of no choice, but then it was a wanted baby. i am pro abortion and imo its no ones choice, but the mothers. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"my body, my choice. no i didnt have the tests, but i am glad they are there for others to make informed choices. i had an ectopic, which to me felt psychologically like an abortion of no choice, but then it was a wanted baby. i am pro abortion and imo its no ones choice, but the mothers."
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