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EU remain or leave??
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"voted out, wife voted out, whole family voted out aswell. " 
All my family is voting Leave aswell. | |||
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"voted out, whole family voted out aswell.
All my family is voting Leave aswell. "Most of my family, myself included have already voted Leave, via postal vote, others will follow on 23rd | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well." Why would workers have to go home?????? you are aware this is for new immigrants not already here | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. Why would workers have to go home?????? you are aware this is for new immigrants not already here" I see, is this something new? As it was on question time last week. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well." Obviously never heard of the 1969 Vienna convention. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well." This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you  | |||
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"did you not watch Andrew Marr this morning, you may still get it on iplayer" I missed it, but yes. I will catch up on it later. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you "of course they will have to go if free movement ends. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends. "More scaremongering from the Remain campaign. People who have come here legally and who are already here legally will be allowed to stay. It is moving forward from June 23rd if the country votes Leave then there will be a change in immigration policy. Britain can implement its own domestic immigraton policy, rather than an EU imposed immigration policy which we currently have now as members of the EU. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends. "What utter tosh. In your own words "if free movement ends" ergo they will be stuck here. In any case residents of this country who contribute, respect OUR laws will always be welcome. What we don't want is the continuation of unrestricted immigration that puts a strain on our beliefs and services. The EU was a good thing in the beginning and I voted for it then but it has been hijacked by failed politicians in their native countries who are trying for a last gasp of power. I personally expect to suffer a financial loss from leaving but it's the future of my children and grandchildren that concerns me. | |||
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"I don't know anyone who is voting No to the EU. I'm 99% certain that it'll be my decisions to stay. " The funny thing is I don't know anyone voting remain... As I put on an other thread... If you were voting to join the EU now, in the state it's in, would you vote in? | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you "That is right and good too | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you That is right and good too "That's what they say now. The EU vote won't be the last you hear on EU immigrants already here. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends.
What utter tosh. In your own words "if free movement ends" ergo they will be stuck here.
In any case residents of this country who contribute, respect OUR laws will always be welcome.
What we don't want is the continuation of unrestricted immigration that puts a strain on our beliefs and services.
The EU was a good thing in the beginning and I voted for it then but it has been hijacked by failed politicians in their native countries who are trying for a last gasp of power.
I personally expect to suffer a financial loss from leaving but it's the future of my children and grandchildren that concerns me."If free movement ends they will have to return to their country of origin. that's not tosh it's a simple statement of fact. how is immigration from the EU putting a strain on your beliefs? | |||
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"Out. Then we will be free to trade with who ever we want the worlds a big place " no we won't we will be free to trade with whoever wants to trade with us on their terms. not the same thing at all | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you That is right and good too
That's what they say now.
The EU vote won't be the last you hear on EU immigrants already here. "That is right as well, but what will happen to those who live in spain and abroad? | |||
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"Out. Then we will be free to trade with who ever we want the worlds a big place " We already do. We signed deals with China last year during their state visit. | |||
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"voted out, wife voted out, whole family voted out aswell. " Agreed | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse???" gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse???" even the brexit campaign couldn't prove that future because we don't pay pay that much we sent home over 12000 citizens last yr who didn't comply with UK immigration laws .wages is governed by the world economy..it could get much worse with a brexit vote .. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok." 350m is money we pay directly into the European Union, alright maybe it doesn't cost us that because obviously it returns more than we pay in so yeah the statement was false, we have our own legal system yes and the government can pass laws, not before they are approved by the european courts though! Our armed forces yes we have direct say where we go and what we do, but again that is governed by Europe, so although it may seem we have direct control of these things, we do not control 100% of what our nations assets or finances do. | |||
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"did you not watch Andrew Marr this morning, you may still get it on iplayer"
Yes i just watched it on BBC iplayer, great performance from Michael Gove this morning. | |||
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"Out. Then we will be free to trade with who ever we want the worlds a big place no we won't we will be free to trade with whoever wants to trade with us on their terms. not the same thing at all " Seeing as the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, all the countries in the world with smaller economies than ours will be doing trade deals with us mostly on our terms. | |||
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"We are all voting remain. I only know 4 people who are voting leave. Everyone else i know is voting remain." You should move up to Scotland, you will get to know many more who are voting to Leave | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse???even the brexit campaign couldn't prove that future because we don't pay pay that much we sent home over 12000 citizens last yr who didn't comply with UK immigration laws .wages is governed by the world economy..it could get much worse with a brexit vote .." But we can only send them home providing they havnt come through any European country to get here, that's the problem | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends.
What utter tosh. In your own words "if free movement ends" ergo they will be stuck here.
In any case residents of this country who contribute, respect OUR laws will always be welcome.
What we don't want is the continuation of unrestricted immigration that puts a strain on our beliefs and services.
The EU was a good thing in the beginning and I voted for it then but it has been hijacked by failed politicians in their native countries who are trying for a last gasp of power.
I personally expect to suffer a financial loss from leaving but it's the future of my children and grandchildren that concerns me.
If free movement ends they will have to return to their country of origin. that's not tosh it's a simple statement of fact.
"No No and No again. It is tosh, complete tosh, total tosh, and absolute tosh. Anyone who thinks that when free movement ends that every one will have to move back to their country of origin is either uninformed, deluded, or both. Please look up, google, or whatever search you want to do and read the 1969 Vienna convention. Then please drop this rubbish. | |||
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"voted out, wife voted out, whole family voted out aswell.
All my family is voting Leave aswell. " | |||
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"Out. Then we will be free to trade with who ever we want the worlds a big place no we won't we will be free to trade with whoever wants to trade with us on their terms. not the same thing at all Seeing as the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, all the countries in the world with smaller economies than ours will be doing trade deals with us mostly on our terms. " totally deluded ..we already trade with the rest of the world and having only just signed a deal in 2014 with china ..the are no new trade deals on the horizon nor will brexit pave the way for any future trade deals...totally deluded individual ... | |||
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"Out. Then we will be free to trade with who ever we want the worlds a big place no we won't we will be free to trade with whoever wants to trade with us on their terms. not the same thing at all Seeing as the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, all the countries in the world with smaller economies than ours will be doing trade deals with us mostly on our terms. " Dream on | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. 350m is money we pay directly into the European Union, alright maybe it doesn't cost us that because obviously it returns more than we pay in so yeah the statement was false, we have our own legal system yes and the government can pass laws, not before they are approved by the european courts though! Our armed forces yes we have direct say where we go and what we do, but again that is governed by Europe, so although it may seem we have direct control of these things, we do not control 100% of what our nations assets or finances do." Our laws are not governed bybthevEU Our armed forces are not governed by the EU. Never will be. We control exactly what we wish to spend , and where | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. 350m is money we pay directly into the European Union, alright maybe it doesn't cost us that because obviously it returns more than we pay in so yeah the statement was false, we have our own legal system yes and the government can pass laws, not before they are approved by the european courts though! Our armed forces yes we have direct say where we go and what we do, but again that is governed by Europe, so although it may seem we have direct control of these things, we do not control 100% of what our nations assets or finances do." are laws are not vetted by a eu court. the eu has no say in our armed forces. 2/10. please keep up at the back. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends.
What utter tosh. In your own words "if free movement ends" ergo they will be stuck here.
In any case residents of this country who contribute, respect OUR laws will always be welcome.
What we don't want is the continuation of unrestricted immigration that puts a strain on our beliefs and services.
The EU was a good thing in the beginning and I voted for it then but it has been hijacked by failed politicians in their native countries who are trying for a last gasp of power.
I personally expect to suffer a financial loss from leaving but it's the future of my children and grandchildren that concerns me.
If free movement ends they will have to return to their country of origin. that's not tosh it's a simple statement of fact.
No No and No again. It is tosh, complete tosh, total tosh, and absolute tosh.
Anyone who thinks that when free movement ends that every one will have to move back to their country of origin is either uninformed, deluded, or both.
Please look up, google, or whatever search you want to do and read the 1969 Vienna convention.
Then please drop this rubbish.
"I have read it and I'd like some of what you are smoking because you are barking up the wrong tree. the vienna convention has nothing to do with free movement within the eu and countries who leave the eu. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok." If we make our own laws !!! Why can't I opt out of the working time agreement as a transport worker? | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. If we make our own laws !!! Why can't I opt out of the working time agreement as a transport worker?" If you are a transport worker I have no desire to have you driving excess hours any where near where I may be | |||
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"leave.." thanks for that considered response | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends.
What utter tosh. In your own words "if free movement ends" ergo they will be stuck here.
In any case residents of this country who contribute, respect OUR laws will always be welcome.
What we don't want is the continuation of unrestricted immigration that puts a strain on our beliefs and services.
The EU was a good thing in the beginning and I voted for it then but it has been hijacked by failed politicians in their native countries who are trying for a last gasp of power.
I personally expect to suffer a financial loss from leaving but it's the future of my children and grandchildren that concerns me.
If free movement ends they will have to return to their country of origin. that's not tosh it's a simple statement of fact.
No No and No again. It is tosh, complete tosh, total tosh, and absolute tosh.
Anyone who thinks that when free movement ends that every one will have to move back to their country of origin is either uninformed, deluded, or both.
Please look up, google, or whatever search you want to do and read the 1969 Vienna convention.
Then please drop this rubbish.
I have read it and I'd like some of what you are smoking because you are barking up the wrong tree. the vienna convention has nothing to do with free movement within the eu and countries who leave the eu."The Geneva convention has nothing to do with the EU, but it did'nt stop Jean Claude Juncker quoting it when Amnesty international and the UN questioned the legality of the EU/Turkey deal on the migrant crisis. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. If we make our own laws !!! Why can't I opt out of the working time agreement as a transport worker? If you are a transport worker I have no desire to have you driving excess hours any where near where I may be " Shows how little you know tocograph law controls hrs driven not working time.. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. If we make our own laws !!! Why can't I opt out of the working time agreement as a transport worker? If you are a transport worker I have no desire to have you driving excess hours any where near where I may be Shows how little you know tocograph law controls hrs driven not working time.. " what's a tocograph? you do know you can opt out of the working time directive. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. If we make our own laws !!! Why can't I opt out of the working time agreement as a transport worker? If you are a transport worker I have no desire to have you driving excess hours any where near where I may be Shows how little you know tocograph law controls hrs driven not working time.. what's a tocograph? you do know you can opt out of the working time directive." Transport workers can't opt out of it anything over 48 hrs & your looking to off set it as Breaks & Periods of Availability to stay within the law | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. If we make our own laws !!! Why can't I opt out of the working time agreement as a transport worker? If you are a transport worker I have no desire to have you driving excess hours any where near where I may be Shows how little you know tocograph law controls hrs driven not working time.. what's a tocograph? you do know you can opt out of the working time directive. Transport workers can't opt out of it anything over 48 hrs & your looking to off set it as Breaks & Periods of Availability to stay within the law" 48 hours is more than enough | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you "They aren't kicking me out I've paid more tax than most British people I'm fooking staying  | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. If we make our own laws !!! Why can't I opt out of the working time agreement as a transport worker? If you are a transport worker I have no desire to have you driving excess hours any where near where I may be Shows how little you know tocograph law controls hrs driven not working time.. what's a tocograph? you do know you can opt out of the working time directive. Transport workers can't opt out of it anything over 48 hrs & your looking to off set it as Breaks & Periods of Availability to stay within the law 48 hours is more than enough " I'm sure you think it is !!! Here's a thing why don't you pay more for your goods in the shops so they can pass it on to the hauliers then I can work 48hrs a week ? | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse???" You do realise all your workers rights come from the EU don't you Sick pay Maternity pay Holiday pay The new living wage All governed by the EU, if we leave none of the above will be law, you could loose the lot, working 52 weeks a year for what your boss wants to pay you | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. If we make our own laws !!! Why can't I opt out of the working time agreement as a transport worker? If you are a transport worker I have no desire to have you driving excess hours any where near where I may be Shows how little you know tocograph law controls hrs driven not working time.. what's a tocograph? you do know you can opt out of the working time directive. Transport workers can't opt out of it anything over 48 hrs & your looking to off set it as Breaks & Periods of Availability to stay within the law 48 hours is more than enough I'm sure you think it is !!! Here's a thing why don't you pay more for your goods in the shops so they can pass it on to the hauliers then I can work 48hrs a week ? " I'm glad to see that you are a communist and don't believe in the free market. I feel the far left have been too quiet in this campaign. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? You do realise all your workers rights come from the EU don't you Sick pay Maternity pay Holiday pay The new living wage All governed by the EU, if we leave none of the above will be law, you could loose the lot, working 52 weeks a year for what your boss wants to pay you " Bollocks..... We have totally different rules on ALL OF THE ABOVE? Proves points BOTH ways. 1.. We can and DO pass our own laws. 2.. If the minimum/living wage is governed by EU law....why don't they have it elsewhere? If they did then we wouldn't have hundreds of thousands of migrants coming here from the EU...they come here because we have a much higher minimum wage. Sorry but you can't have things both ways., | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? You do realise all your workers rights come from the EU don't you Sick pay Maternity pay Holiday pay The new living wage All governed by the EU, if we leave none of the above will be law, you could loose the lot, working 52 weeks a year for what your boss wants to pay you Bollocks..... We have totally different rules on ALL OF THE ABOVE? Proves points BOTH ways. 1.. We can and DO pass our own laws. 2.. If the minimum/living wage is governed by EU law....why don't they have it elsewhere? If they did then we wouldn't have hundreds of thousands of migrants coming here from the EU...they come here because we have a much higher minimum wage. Sorry but you can't have things both ways.," Ok if you say so I learned a long time ago there's no point having a conversation on here So your right  | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? You do realise all your workers rights come from the EU don't you Sick pay Maternity pay Holiday pay The new living wage All governed by the EU, if we leave none of the above will be law, you could loose the lot, working 52 weeks a year for what your boss wants to pay you " Sorry. That list you just gave were all in place in one form or another before the EU came into being. In fact most pre-date our joining the EEC. Sick Pay: In 1911 the National Insurance Act was passed. Part 1 of the act gave people the right to free medical treatment, and sick pay of 10s a week for 26 weeks. Maternity Pay: The UK introduced its first maternity leave legislation through the Employment Protection Act 1975 with Maternity Grants and care going back to 1911 National Insurance Act. Holiday Pay: The 'Holiday Pay Act' was introduced in 1938. Minimum Wage: The Minimum Wage was introduced by the Labour Government in 1998. Rates are set by the UK Government and nothing to do with the EU. This current Government has introduced a 'Living Wage'at a higher rate. Again nothing to do with the EU. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? You do realise all your workers rights come from the EU don't you Sick pay Maternity pay Holiday pay The new living wage All governed by the EU, if we leave none of the above will be law, you could loose the lot, working 52 weeks a year for what your boss wants to pay you Sorry. That list you just gave were all in place in one form or another before the EU came into being. In fact most pre-date our joining the EEC. Sick Pay: In 1911 the National Insurance Act was passed. Part 1 of the act gave people the right to free medical treatment, and sick pay of 10s a week for 26 weeks. Maternity Pay: The UK introduced its first maternity leave legislation through the Employment Protection Act 1975 with Maternity Grants and care going back to 1911 National Insurance Act. Holiday Pay: The 'Holiday Pay Act' was introduced in 1938. Minimum Wage: The Minimum Wage was introduced by the Labour Government in 1998. Rates are set by the UK Government and nothing to do with the EU. This current Government has introduced a 'Living Wage'at a higher rate. Again nothing to do with the EU." Well I'm going to stop listening to people in that case I'm to trusting I believe everything people tell me | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse???" If you sort out the £34 billion in tax gap which £3 billion is corporation tax and £2.9 billion is individuals. We could still pay the EU and have change to invest in the NHS and other things. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends.
What utter tosh. In your own words "if free movement ends" ergo they will be stuck here.
In any case residents of this country who contribute, respect OUR laws will always be welcome.
What we don't want is the continuation of unrestricted immigration that puts a strain on our beliefs and services.
The EU was a good thing in the beginning and I voted for it then but it has been hijacked by failed politicians in their native countries who are trying for a last gasp of power.
I personally expect to suffer a financial loss from leaving but it's the future of my children and grandchildren that concerns me.
If free movement ends they will have to return to their country of origin. that's not tosh it's a simple statement of fact.
how is immigration from the EU putting a strain on your beliefs? "I was wondering to how EU migration was a strain on anyone's beliefs.
But in the main point he is in fact correct, no one who is currently legally resident will be sent home as a result of us leaving the EU.
However we will still be in the EU on the 24th and will remain in for at least 2 years, so any EU citizens will still be able to come legally till then and, if there really is an EU migration problem into the UK, there might be an uncontrollable rush to get in before the door is slammed closed.
But the reality is is that this whole EU migration problem is just another BREXIT lie.
Total net migration into the UK is about 360,000 a year.
Of that 180,000 (50%) are EU citizens.
Of those EU citizens up to a half (25% of total) are thought to be UK nationals returning from living or working in the EU.
Also, from those EU citizens a quarter (12.5%) are known to be Irish nationals who will still be allowed free movement into the UK under legislation going back to 1922.
A smaller number from Malta and Cyprus would still have preferential access to the UK as Commonwealth countries.
What this means is that leaving the EU will make absolutely no difference to 90% of total immigration because they will still be allowed to legally enter the UK as they do now. Of the 10% it might effect many will still be allowed to enter as many non EU migrants are now.
Leaving the EU will not stop EU migration, it will make no significant difference to it at all. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse???" It could get a hell of a lot worse. At best leaving the EU will great economic uncertainty for 2 to 10 years, that will be worse; at worst it could destabilise the whole European continent and beyond, that would be much worse. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends. "ot sure where you got that idea from  | |||
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"It could get a hell of a lot worse." And it could get a hell of a lot better, no one knows that's the problem  | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. 350m is money we pay directly into the European Union, alright maybe it doesn't cost us that because obviously it returns more than we pay in so yeah the statement was false, we have our own legal system yes and the government can pass laws, not before they are approved by the european courts though! Our armed forces yes we have direct say where we go and what we do, but again that is governed by Europe, so although it may seem we have direct control of these things, we do not control 100% of what our nations assets or finances do." We don't pay £350 million a week, we pay £250 million a week and get back in direct payments £100 million, making a net contribution of £150 million a week. The £350 million a week is the figure we would pay per week if we did not get a rebate of £100 million a week. So we never actually pay £350 million a week. Everything else you've written about laws having to be approved by European Courts, Europe having a say over deployment of British forces and not having control of our assets and finance is just completely wrong. | |||
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"Out. Then we will be free to trade with who ever we want the worlds a big place no we won't we will be free to trade with whoever wants to trade with us on their terms. not the same thing at all Seeing as the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, all the countries in the world with smaller economies than ours will be doing trade deals with us mostly on our terms. " But when it comes to doing a deal with the remaining EU the fact that they are 5 times bigger than the UK doesn't seem to mean that we will have to do a trade deal with them on their terms, according to BREXIT anyhow. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends.
What utter tosh. In your own words "if free movement ends" ergo they will be stuck here.
In any case residents of this country who contribute, respect OUR laws will always be welcome.
What we don't want is the continuation of unrestricted immigration that puts a strain on our beliefs and services.
The EU was a good thing in the beginning and I voted for it then but it has been hijacked by failed politicians in their native countries who are trying for a last gasp of power.
I personally expect to suffer a financial loss from leaving but it's the future of my children and grandchildren that concerns me.
If free movement ends they will have to return to their country of origin. that's not tosh it's a simple statement of fact.
No No and No again. It is tosh, complete tosh, total tosh, and absolute tosh.
Anyone who thinks that when free movement ends that every one will have to move back to their country of origin is either uninformed, deluded, or both.
Please look up, google, or whatever search you want to do and read the 1969 Vienna convention.
Then please drop this rubbish.
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"It's a bit worrying that there are people that think it's a vote to stay in the continent of Europe and not to stay in the EU!" I really don't think that anyone is under the illusion that this is vote to physically move the British Isles, after first of all carving of the Irish republic, out into the middle of the Atlantic. However a vote to leave or remain in the EU is a vote to be part of the future of Europe or not. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. 350m is money we pay directly into the European Union, alright maybe it doesn't cost us that because obviously it returns more than we pay in so yeah the statement was false, we have our own legal system yes and the government can pass laws, not before they are approved by the european courts though! Our armed forces yes we have direct say where we go and what we do, but again that is governed by Europe, so although it may seem we have direct control of these things, we do not control 100% of what our nations assets or finances do. We don't pay £350 million a week, we pay £250 million a week and get back in direct payments £100 million, making a net contribution of £150 million a week. The £350 million a week is the figure we would pay per week if we did not get a rebate of £100 million a week. So we never actually pay £350 million a week. Everything else you've written about laws having to be approved by European Courts, Europe having a say over deployment of British forces and not having control of our assets and finance is just completely wrong." Try looking up the house of commons report.It states that the NET amount we will pay over in 2016 is 216 million a week,that is not guesswork or lies its what the government estimate we will actually pay over after our rebate which gets smaller each year,this money plus the money that we currently receive back and have no choice on what it is spent on could all be spent on what the british gov decides. | |||
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"The creators of the EU promised peace and prosperity but through their grandiose folly they have fuelled only debt, despair and disintegration. That is all that immigration is about. It will collapse soon and suddenly, just as the undemocratic communist regimes did in Russia and Eastern Europe in the 80's. There will be upheaval at first but in the long run it will be a good thing for the people of Europe "funny how the outers are telling us one minute that the eu superstate incl turkey will be here soon and the next minute it's going to collapse shortly. you can't have it both ways. | |||
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"The creators of the EU promised peace and prosperity but through their grandiose folly they have fuelled only debt, despair and disintegration. That is all that immigration is about. It will collapse soon and suddenly, just as the undemocratic communist regimes did in Russia and Eastern Europe in the 80's. There will be upheaval at first but in the long run it will be a good thing for the people of Europe
funny how the outers are telling us one minute that the eu superstate incl turkey will be here soon and the next minute it's going to collapse shortly.
you can't have it both ways."have I said Turkey will be here soon? Nope, but that is beside the point, the EU want them in. | |||
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"just watched the PM on question time. The deal he got lasts for 12 years then what. Im out" He didn't actually get a deal. Just an agreement that it will be considered. Nothing written or signed! | |||
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"if yer on the Facebook, search Uni Of Liverpool and watch the economic professor ... well worth yer time" Ah yes economists are they the ones that missed the sub prime market crash and never see a boom or bust coming or cant predict what the economy will be doing in six months yet we are meant to believe what they are guessing will happen in over ten years. NO one knows what will happen when we leave but the only thing we have to fear is fear itself, we have a country full of people who are willing to go out in the world and make a living,the GDP of the EU is falling compared to the rest of the world despite it growing in size,the euro is a basket currency held up by the german economy, they are having an election soon and the sceptic parties are doing well the whole project is doomed lets get out before the ship sinks | |||
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"if yer on the Facebook, search Uni Of Liverpool and watch the economic professor ... well worth yer time Ah yes economists are they the ones that missed the sub prime market crash and never see a boom or bust coming or cant predict what the economy will be doing in six months yet we are meant to believe what they are guessing will happen in over ten years. NO one knows what will happen when we leave but the only thing we have to fear is fear itself, we have a country full of people who are willing to go out in the world and make a living,the GDP of the EU is falling compared to the rest of the world despite it growing in size,the euro is a basket currency held up by the german economy, they are having an election soon and the sceptic parties are doing well the whole project is doomed lets get out before the ship sinks" | |||
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"if yer on the Facebook, search Uni Of Liverpool and watch the economic professor ... well worth yer time Ah yes economists are they the ones that missed the sub prime market crash and never see a boom or bust coming or cant predict what the economy will be doing in six months yet we are meant to believe what they are guessing will happen in over ten years. NO one knows what will happen when we leave but the only thing we have to fear is fear itself, we have a country full of people who are willing to go out in the world and make a living,the GDP of the EU is falling compared to the rest of the world despite it growing in size,the euro is a basket currency held up by the german economy, they are having an election soon and the sceptic parties are doing well the whole project is doomed lets get out before the ship sinks" One minute the outers are telling us the eu is taking over everything and the next it's on the verge of collapse. if you are going to scaremonger at least be consistent. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. Why would workers have to go home?????? you are aware this is for new immigrants not already hereI see, is this something new? As it was on question time last week." It's always been the case. There's something called the Luxembourg Treaty that guarantees people's right to stay. The remain side even tried saying that 100,000 people in London alone would be forced to divorce because one was British and the other was EU! I've also had retainers tell me that we won't be able to go on holiday in EU countries anymore if we leave! | |||
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"However we will still be in the EU on the 24th and will remain in for at least 2 years," Yes on the 24th nothing changes and the '2 year clock' starts ticking as soon as we invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. However, we leave the EU whenever we choose to with or without a trade agreement and certainly after those two years. We are not stuck in the Eu for a further two years.. "so any EU citizens will still be able to come legally till then [2 years] and, if there really is an EU migration problem into the UK, there might be an uncontrollable rush to get in before the door is slammed closed." Sorry that is simply wrong. On giving notice we are leaving (as above) basically the status quo holds, our payments reduce on a sliding scale and we can introduce measures to protect our 'post EU' position. Bear in mind those arriving after our notice of leaving would be liable for repatriation. Those already here have a different status and will remain until the UK Government establishes new policy on EU immigrant status. " But the reality is is that this whole EU migration problem is just another BREXIT lie." I am lying? Given the content of this you really need to be careful. That has to be the biggest mistake you have made on here. I corrected exactly this error you are making in another Thread that you acknowledged so you know the errors you are making and I am sorry but I must correct you. "Total net migration into the UK is about 360,000 a year. Of that 180,000 (50%) are EU citizens. Of those EU citizens up to a half (25% of total) are thought to be UK nationals returning from living or working in the EU. Also, from those EU citizens a quarter (12.5%) are known to be Irish nationals who will still be allowed free movement into the UK under legislation going back to 1922. A smaller number from Malta and Cyprus would still have preferential access to the UK as Commonwealth countries. What this means is that leaving the EU will make absolutely no difference to 90% of total immigration because they will still be allowed to legally enter the UK as they do now. Of the 10% it might effect many will still be allowed to enter as many non EU migrants are now. Leaving the EU will not stop EU migration, it will make no significant difference to it at all." * Yes as you say Nett EU migration is about 180,000 in 2015. That is NON UK PEOPLE FROM OTHER EU COUNTRIES. It is a NETT figure so all those leaving are 'netted off' those arriving to give 180,000. * Your mentioning UK movements is a total Red herring. Those numbers of UK nationals moving back is NOT part of the EU migration nett figure at all. After all they aren't 'migrating'. They are returning home. The only time UK Nationals are counted is in those actually migrating from the UK and this is part of the numbers 'netted off' the inward migration totals (EU and non-EU). And as you have NO idea on the percentage that 25% is a total guess. But its irrelevant anyway. * Irish migrants are counted as part of 'EU Migration' (in and out). By the way a 'quarter' is 25% not 12.5% but are you really saying 45,000 of 180,000 are Irish? * Irish Nationals move here under EU Free Movement of Labour rules. Whether the original 1923 arrangements, suspended on our joining the EEC, are re-introduced depends on a) EU negotiations and b) bilateral UK / Irish negotiations. * You conjure up a figure of 90% that will still come here legally. Care to provide some sources? Are you really clinging to the belief that of that 180,000 some 162,000 are UK nationals, Irish Nationals and people from Malta and Cyprus? Please don't insult our intelligence .... * leaving the EU will TOTALLY stop EU migration as it stands now under Free Movement of Labour rules. Absolutely. Period. To say otherwise is beyond belief. * We currently discriminate against non-EU people because we cannot control the EU migration and its the only way to control numbers. So we are not getting the skills we need but have to endure thousands of low skilled low wage earning EU migrants here taking whatever job they can and in the process force down wages. * The Bank of England has stated that for every 10% rise in EU migration wages drop by 2% for the low paid. * Now post Brexit we expect a points based system of migration to be introduced. So we will control a) the numbers the UK can support b) the investment needed in infrastructure to support those numbers c) the skill sets the country needs and d) the system of vetting applicants. And as I have said before the real number that scares me is the one the ONS produced for 2015 which said some 630,000 new NI Numbers were given to EU migrants so they can claim Benefits, Housing, Tax Credits, Child Benefits (that are sent to their home countries) and to work here. That is 2 Birminghams in one year. I suppose you are saying that is a total lie as well? | |||
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" There was a good point made on the question time debate tonight. Dimbleby read out a quote from Stuart Rose (former M & S chief executive and the leader of the remain campaign) " A vote to leave the EU would lead to higher wages for lower paid workers. I don't see this as a good thing" Cameron changed the subject rapidly..... No surprise the fat cats want to remain. They can target recruitment at EU countries with low wages and high unemployment. Bring in migrant workers on minimum wage and the tax payers subsidise with up to £10k of in work benefits (Cameron's figures not mine...also came up in the debate). But don't take my word...it will be on i-player by now . Caroline Lucas (Remain campaigner, Green Party MP and ex MEP). Also stated on Subday Politics that the EU budget has failed to be audited and signed off "for many years". With their own campaign team shooting themselves in the foot and revealing the truth one wonders where things will go.....Corbyn on Andrew Marr today.....believes in total open door and does not want any limit on immigration...at least he agrees with the Blairites on this!" | |||
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"Still undecided here "Vote with your heart is all I ask ... | |||
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"Caroline Lucas (Remain campaigner, Green Party MP and ex MEP). Also stated on Subday Politics that the EU budget has failed to be audited and signed off "for many years"." It's 15 years I believe. | |||
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"Still undecided here "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gILTIDr4Ra8 | |||
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"Still undecided here
Vote with your heart is all I ask ..."And I shall, you see for me (fem) I'm the daughter of an immigrant, I have family that are citizens of other EU countries so that says stay. BUT, I also saw the political side of things where the EU has overtaken sovereign laws on certain issues (politics degree) so that says leave.... Hmmmm I have to think | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. 350m is money we pay directly into the European Union, alright maybe it doesn't cost us that because obviously it returns more than we pay in so yeah the statement was false, we have our own legal system yes and the government can pass laws, not before they are approved by the european courts though! Our armed forces yes we have direct say where we go and what we do, but again that is governed by Europe, so although it may seem we have direct control of these things, we do not control 100% of what our nations assets or finances do. Our laws are not governed bybthevEU Our armed forces are not governed by the EU. Never will be. We control exactly what we wish to spend , and where" In my job, I have recently had to comply with changed legislation, true to say this is a law brought in through parliament. Also true to say that it was brought in, in order to comply with an EU directive. So yes, the law is made in the UK, but the UK is directed to do so by the EU. This has happened many, many times in the industries I work in. | |||
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"Still undecided here
Vote with your heart is all I ask ...
And I shall, you see for me (fem) I'm the daughter of an immigrant, I have family that are citizens of other EU countries so that says stay. BUT, I also saw the political side of things where the EU has overtaken sovereign laws on certain issues (politics degree) so that says leave....
Hmmmm I have to think "Priti Patel is the daughter of Ugandan Indian immigrants to the UK and she is one of the leading figures in the Vote Leave campaign. Gisela Stuart is a German immigrant to the UK and she is one of the founding members of the Vote Leave campaign. | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. 350m is money we pay directly into the European Union, alright maybe it doesn't cost us that because obviously it returns more than we pay in so yeah the statement was false, we have our own legal system yes and the government can pass laws, not before they are approved by the european courts though! Our armed forces yes we have direct say where we go and what we do, but again that is governed by Europe, so although it may seem we have direct control of these things, we do not control 100% of what our nations assets or finances do. We don't pay £350 million a week, we pay £250 million a week and get back in direct payments £100 million, making a net contribution of £150 million a week. The £350 million a week is the figure we would pay per week if we did not get a rebate of £100 million a week. So we never actually pay £350 million a week. Everything else you've written about laws having to be approved by European Courts, Europe having a say over deployment of British forces and not having control of our assets and finance is just completely wrong. Try looking up the house of commons report.It states that the NET amount we will pay over in 2016 is 216 million a week,that is not guesswork or lies its what the government estimate we will actually pay over after our rebate which gets smaller each year,this money plus the money that we currently receive back and have no choice on what it is spent on could all be spent on what the british gov decides. " If that £216 Mn a week figure is as reliable as that £4,300 loss of earnings figure our Government came up with I wouldn't rely on it! I did some numbers from HM Treasury for 2010 to 2014 which tell the actual facts. Numbers in Millions: Year Gross Rebate Nett 2010 £15,197 £3,047 £12,150 2011 £15,357 £3,143 £12,214 2012 £15,746 £3,110 £12,636 2013 £18,135 £3,674 £14,461 2014 £19,234 £4,888 £14,346 5 Year Increase %: 26.6% 60.4% 18.1% 5 Year Average Cost: £16,734 £3,572 £13,161 Weekly: £321 £253 So the 'Bremainers' cannot confuse the issue the key number £13,161,000. Or £13.2 Bn. In fairness someone said the 2015 figure was £12.9 Bn so not far out. That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests. Payments under the CAP or CFP not only can be maintained post Brexit but can be very focused to maximise the potential of our brilliant farmers, make more use of our land (rather than 'set aside') and finally give the investment and confidence our fishermen need to bring that industry back to where it rightfully belongs. No more throwing dead fish back into the sea to 'preserve stocks'!!! And no industry has been decimated by the EU like the British Fishing Industry.... | |||
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"Still undecided here
Vote with your heart is all I ask ...
And I shall, you see for me (fem) I'm the daughter of an immigrant, I have family that are citizens of other EU countries so that says stay. BUT, I also saw the political side of things where the EU has overtaken sovereign laws on certain issues (politics degree) so that says leave....
Hmmmm I have to think
Priti Patel is the daughter of Ugandan Indian immigrants to the UK and she is one of the leading figures in the Vote Leave campaign. Gisela Stuart is a German immigrant to the UK and she is one of the founding members of the Vote Leave campaign. "I'm the daughter of African immigrants, my sister has applied for German citizenship with German family, other family are Portuguese, basically my family is a big mess up of the gene pool  leave it stay, I shall have to decide | |||
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"Still undecided here
Vote with your heart is all I ask ...
And I shall, you see for me (fem) I'm the daughter of an immigrant, I have family that are citizens of other EU countries so that says stay. BUT, I also saw the political side of things where the EU has overtaken sovereign laws on certain issues (politics degree) so that says leave....
Hmmmm I have to think "I declare an interest as I volunteer for 'Vote Leave' so all I will add is that no one is against migration as such. It adds so much to any society. What we are campaigning about is the uncontrolled immigration from an ever declining and potentially expanding EU which damages our society. We would like to control the quality of the immigration and reduce the sheer numbers. But again two things: Please vote and vote with your heart... | |||
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" And as I have said before the real number that scares me is the one the ONS produced for 2015 which said some 630,000 new NI Numbers were given to EU migrants so they can claim Benefits, Housing, Tax Credits, Child Benefits (that are sent to their home countries) and to work here. That is 2 Birminghams in one year. I suppose you are saying that is a total lie as well? " According to Birmingham city council "Over 1.1 million people live in Birmingham". If we had to build 2 Birminghams in one year that would be 2.2 million people? I think that's between 3 and 4 times as much building as we'd need to do for 630000 people. It's hard to know if you are telling lies or just not very happy with representing numbers accurately, but either way you got it wrong. By miles. I can see why numbers scare you. You certainly use them for scaremongering if you overstate the impact by the best part of a factor of 4. | |||
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" And as I have said before the real number that scares me is the one the ONS produced for 2015 which said some 630,000 new NI Numbers were given to EU migrants so they can claim Benefits, Housing, Tax Credits, Child Benefits (that are sent to their home countries) and to work here. That is 2 Birminghams in one year. I suppose you are saying that is a total lie as well? According to Birmingham city council "Over 1.1 million people live in Birmingham". If we had to build 2 Birminghams in one year that would be 2.2 million people? I think that's between 3 and 4 times as much building as we'd need to do for 630000 people. It's hard to know if you are telling lies or just not very happy with representing numbers accurately, but either way you got it wrong. By miles. I can see why numbers scare you. You certainly use them for scaremongering if you overstate the impact by the best part of a factor of 4. " I'm sure his last profile was from Birmingham too. | |||
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" And as I have said before the real number that scares me is the one the ONS produced for 2015 which said some 630,000 new NI Numbers were given to EU migrants so they can claim Benefits, Housing, Tax Credits, Child Benefits (that are sent to their home countries) and to work here. That is 2 Birminghams in one year. I suppose you are saying that is a total lie as well? According to Birmingham city council "Over 1.1 million people live in Birmingham". If we had to build 2 Birminghams in one year that would be 2.2 million people? I think that's between 3 and 4 times as much building as we'd need to do for 630000 people. It's hard to know if you are telling lies or just not very happy with representing numbers accurately, but either way you got it wrong. By miles. I can see why numbers scare you. You certainly use them for scaremongering if you overstate the impact by the best part of a factor of 4. I'm sure his last profile was from Birmingham too. " I'm sure he made the same mistake last time too | |||
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" And as I have said before the real number that scares me is the one the ONS produced for 2015 which said some 630,000 new NI Numbers were given to EU migrants so they can claim Benefits, Housing, Tax Credits, Child Benefits (that are sent to their home countries) and to work here. That is 2 Birminghams in one year. I suppose you are saying that is a total lie as well? According to Birmingham city council "Over 1.1 million people live in Birmingham". If we had to build 2 Birminghams in one year that would be 2.2 million people? I think that's between 3 and 4 times as much building as we'd need to do for 630000 people. It's hard to know if you are telling lies or just not very happy with representing numbers accurately, but either way you got it wrong. By miles. I can see why numbers scare you. You certainly use them for scaremongering if you overstate the impact by the best part of a factor of 4. " Oh well done. I made a mistake because I should have added "which will create" 2 Birminghams. But for all your 'clever' comments you have no facts to alter what the numbers say do you? So 630,000 a year is OK? It doesn't matter? We can keep on absorbing all those people into our housing, education, hospitals and infrastructure? Immigration at this level has added up to 3 million EU immigrants we have here today (Government figures by the way). And the further 3 million forecast by that Treasury report you keep using? That is 6 million immigrants in 14 years time. That is over 5 'Birminghams'. Go and nitpick over THAT but remember it is our societies and country and NHS and poorer families that are being hit every day. But thats OK. As long as you can score some points over some Brexit Charlatan making a mistake .... | |||
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" I'm sure his last profile was from Birmingham too." What 'last profile'? I have never lived in Birmingham. But I was there at the weekend at Chams with a friend... Does that count? | |||
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"Leave, 350 million a week the EU costs Britain. Let us control our laws, our borders, our wages and our armed forces. Take the risk, how will we ever know if we don't take the risk. It can't get any worse??? gosh you have swallowed so many lies. we don't pay 350m. we do make our own laws we do control our waged. we do control our armed forces. but apart from that your post was ok. 350m is money we pay directly into the European Union, alright maybe it doesn't cost us that because obviously it returns more than we pay in so yeah the statement was false, we have our own legal system yes and the government can pass laws, not before they are approved by the european courts though! Our armed forces yes we have direct say where we go and what we do, but again that is governed by Europe, so although it may seem we have direct control of these things, we do not control 100% of what our nations assets or finances do. We don't pay £350 million a week, we pay £250 million a week and get back in direct payments £100 million, making a net contribution of £150 million a week. The £350 million a week is the figure we would pay per week if we did not get a rebate of £100 million a week. So we never actually pay £350 million a week. Everything else you've written about laws having to be approved by European Courts, Europe having a say over deployment of British forces and not having control of our assets and finance is just completely wrong. Try looking up the house of commons report.It states that the NET amount we will pay over in 2016 is 216 million a week,that is not guesswork or lies its what the government estimate we will actually pay over after our rebate which gets smaller each year,this money plus the money that we currently receive back and have no choice on what it is spent on could all be spent on what the british gov decides. If that £216 Mn a week figure is as reliable as that £4,300 loss of earnings figure our Government came up with I wouldn't rely on it! I did some numbers from HM Treasury for 2010 to 2014 which tell the actual facts. Numbers in Millions: Year Gross Rebate Nett 2010 £15,197 £3,047 £12,150 2011 £15,357 £3,143 £12,214 2012 £15,746 £3,110 £12,636 2013 £18,135 £3,674 £14,461 2014 £19,234 £4,888 £14,346 5 Year Increase %: 26.6% 60.4% 18.1% 5 Year Average Cost: £16,734 £3,572 £13,161 Weekly: £321 £253 So the 'Bremainers' cannot confuse the issue the key number £13,161,000. Or £13.2 Bn. In fairness someone said the 2015 figure was £12.9 Bn so not far out. That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests. Payments under the CAP or CFP not only can be maintained post Brexit but can be very focused to maximise the potential of our brilliant farmers, make more use of our land (rather than 'set aside') and finally give the investment and confidence our fishermen need to bring that industry back to where it rightfully belongs. No more throwing dead fish back into the sea to 'preserve stocks'!!! And no industry has been decimated by the EU like the British Fishing Industry.... " Small numbers out of a total spend by the UK government of 720 billion a year so EU membership cost us about 2% of the total spend per year by our government ...EU membership is a bargain in my book | |||
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" And as I have said before the real number that scares me is the one the ONS produced for 2015 which said some 630,000 new NI Numbers were given to EU migrants so they can claim Benefits, Housing, Tax Credits, Child Benefits (that are sent to their home countries) and to work here. That is 2 Birminghams in one year. I suppose you are saying that is a total lie as well? According to Birmingham city council "Over 1.1 million people live in Birmingham". If we had to build 2 Birminghams in one year that would be 2.2 million people? I think that's between 3 and 4 times as much building as we'd need to do for 630000 people. It's hard to know if you are telling lies or just not very happy with representing numbers accurately, but either way you got it wrong. By miles. I can see why numbers scare you. You certainly use them for scaremongering if you overstate the impact by the best part of a factor of 4. Oh well done. I made a mistake because I should have added "which will create" 2 Birminghams. But for all your 'clever' comments you have no facts to alter what the numbers say do you? So 630,000 a year is OK? It doesn't matter? We can keep on absorbing all those people into our housing, education, hospitals and infrastructure? Immigration at this level has added up to 3 million EU immigrants we have here today (Government figures by the way). And the further 3 million forecast by that Treasury report you keep using? That is 6 million immigrants in 14 years time. That is over 5 'Birminghams'. Go and nitpick over THAT but remember it is our societies and country and NHS and poorer families that are being hit every day. But thats OK. As long as you can score some points over some Brexit Charlatan making a mistake .... "Being a Charlatan is about misrepresenting facts. That sounds very relevant with the stuff you're trying to churn out. I'm not looking for clever comments, just the accuracy of your case, which is poor and blustering at me won't make it any better. | |||
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" Small numbers out of a total spend by the UK government of 720 billion a year so EU membership cost us about 2% of the total spend per year by our government ...EU membership is a bargain in my book " Oh really? So what exactly do we get for our £13.2 Bn a year average that is such a bargain? Persuade me and I will change form 'Leave' to 'Remain' The £61 Bn a year trade deficit we run with the 'Single Market'? Yeah that is great value to our borrowings. 80% of our Laws, Regulations and Directives not made here? Yeah sovereignty is a terrible waste. Some 3 million immigrants the employment, health care, housing, benefits and education we provide rather the the EU country they came from? Hmmmmm Whichever way you cut it £13 Billion is a very large amount of money .... | |||
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" So the 'Bremainers' cannot confuse the issue the key number £13,161,000. Or £13.2 Bn. In fairness someone said the 2015 figure was £12.9 Bn so not far out. That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests. Payments under the CAP or CFP not only can be maintained post Brexit but can be very focused to maximise the potential of our brilliant farmers, make more use of our land (rather than 'set aside') and finally give the investment and confidence our fishermen need to bring that industry back to where it rightfully belongs. No more throwing dead fish back into the sea to 'preserve stocks'!!! And no industry has been decimated by the EU like the British Fishing Industry.... " I actually kinda take offence to this.... especially this bit.... "That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests." its easy for you to say that... living in your oh so cosy part of the south east.... but try telling that to people living in lets say cornwall.... or northern ireland.... or scotland.... or south wales.... or the north east where that money goes on rejuvination projects.... liverpool john lennon airport... birmingham NIA.... the newcastle/gateshead quayside project.... the cardiff city centre/airport rail link.... the reinvention of the edinburgh/borders railway.... examples of where money has gone to helped by EU money.... the thing about that money is that it has gone to places precisely because the government of the day haven't put that money.... for example..i am again going to use local examples..... without the help of the EU Nissan probably would not have invested in sunderland, the EU helped give them that nudge.... Hitachi building the new UK high speed trains in Newton Aycliffe because of the help of EU funding..... at the beginning of this campaign all i ever wanted the leave side to do was to tell me the worst that could happen if we were to leave, and if i could say "well i could live with that" i would have probably voted out.... but no one has been honest, its been rosy eyed "we will get everything we want and give up nothing.... not only will they like it and lump it, they will also give us all sorts of sweetheart deals on the way out the door!!!" i'm sorry.... thats not realistic... i want to know what plan b is if you don't get what you want... and no one has been honest to tell me what that is... if i vote to stay.... at least i can see what the future is like... if i vote to leave... its like people telling us to go over the top... not knowing what is out there... it probably makes it much harder in my situation if we decide to leave, i have already started looking into the process of possibly getting an irish passport, but we shall see if the historical agreements remain in place.... | |||
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" So the 'Bremainers' cannot confuse the issue the key number £13,161,000. Or £13.2 Bn. In fairness someone said the 2015 figure was £12.9 Bn so not far out. That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests. Payments under the CAP or CFP not only can be maintained post Brexit but can be very focused to maximise the potential of our brilliant farmers, make more use of our land (rather than 'set aside') and finally give the investment and confidence our fishermen need to bring that industry back to where it rightfully belongs. No more throwing dead fish back into the sea to 'preserve stocks'!!! And no industry has been decimated by the EU like the British Fishing Industry.... I actually kinda take offence to this.... especially this bit.... That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests. its easy for you to say that... living in your oh so cosy part of the south east.... but try telling that to people living in lets say cornwall.... or northern ireland.... or scotland.... or south wales.... or the north east where that money goes on rejuvination projects.... liverpool john lennon airport... birmingham NIA.... the newcastle/gateshead quayside project.... the cardiff city centre/airport rail link.... the reinvention of the edinburgh/borders railway.... examples of where money has gone to helped by EU money.... the thing about that money is that it has gone to places precisely because the government of the day haven't put that money.... for example..i am again going to use local examples..... without the help of the EU Nissan probably would not have invested in sunderland, the EU helped give them that nudge.... Hitachi building the new UK high speed trains in Newton Aycliffe because of the help of EU funding..... at the beginning of this campaign all i ever wanted the leave side to do was to tell me the worst that could happen if we were to leave, and if i could say "well i could live with that" i would have probably voted out.... but no one has been honest, its been rosy eyed "we will get everything we want and give up nothing.... not only will they like it and lump it, they will also give us all sorts of sweetheart deals on the way out the door!!!" i'm sorry.... thats not realistic... i want to know what plan b is if you don't get what you want... and no one has been honest to tell me what that is... if i vote to stay.... at least i can see what the future is like... if i vote to leave... its like people telling us to go over the top... not knowing what is out there... it probably makes it much harder in my situation if we decide to leave, i have already started looking into the process of possibly getting an irish passport, but we shall see if the historical agreements remain in place.... " Great post Fabio | |||
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" Small numbers out of a total spend by the UK government of 720 billion a year so EU membership cost us about 2% of the total spend per year by our government ...EU membership is a bargain in my book Oh really? So what exactly do we get for our £13.2 Bn a year average that is such a bargain? Persuade me and I will change form 'Leave' to 'Remain' The £61 Bn a year trade deficit we run with the 'Single Market'? Yeah that is great value to our borrowings. 80% of our Laws, Regulations and Directives not made here? Yeah sovereignty is a terrible waste. Some 3 million immigrants the employment, health care, housing, benefits and education we provide rather the the EU country they came from? Hmmmmm Whichever way you cut it £13 Billion is a very large amount of money .... " We do not depart with 13,billion as your figures left out farming / fishing subsidies and the billions the EU invest back ito the UK for regeneration projects so the amount paid is approx 5.9 Billion .and for that we get free trade with the worlds largest market...so its a bargain ... | |||
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" The £61 Bn a year trade deficit we run with the 'Single Market'? Yeah that is great value to our borrowings. " see... i hate this figure being used in the context you are using it in, because that is misleading.... that 60 bil isn't the government... thats you and me!!!! so unless you are now going to become someone who only buys everything "made in britain" thats is not going to change.... people aren't going to stop buying for example bmw's or audi's.... they will just end up eating the extra tariff money!!!... for example... i know this is going to come as a shocker to you.... most fruit and veg we eat.... its not grown in the UK!!!!!! (next time you look at a tin on baked beans..... look where it is actually made!!!) are people going to start buying british if a european product is better... lets say a computer... of a hi -fi....or your flatscreen TV....... not on your life.... and lets not even start talking about clothes.... or sweeties.... | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends.
What utter tosh. In your own words "if free movement ends" ergo they will be stuck here.
In any case residents of this country who contribute, respect OUR laws will always be welcome.
What we don't want is the continuation of unrestricted immigration that puts a strain on our beliefs and services.
The EU was a good thing in the beginning and I voted for it then but it has been hijacked by failed politicians in their native countries who are trying for a last gasp of power.
I personally expect to suffer a financial loss from leaving but it's the future of my children and grandchildren that concerns me."I agree thats what I am worried about ... | |||
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" But for all your 'clever' comments you have no facts to alter what the numbers say do you? " Try these facts: In 2003 there were 59.6 million people in the UK. In 2015 there were 64.6 million. That's an increase of 5 million. In 2003 there were 17861 state funded primary schools. In 2015 there were 16766 state funded primary schools. In case you hadn't noticed that's a need for fewer schools despite the population rise. In 2003 there were 3454 state funded secondary schools. In 2015 there were 3381 state funded secondary schools. In case you hadn't noticed that's a need for fewer schools despite the population rise. Oh look, more people, but we need fewer schools. Over that 12 year period the school population increased by 62000 though the national population increased by 5 million. You and fellow Brexiters going all shouty about the impact on school numbers or the need to build schools is not born out by the actual figures since 2003. The fact is that you can make up numbers, you can look up numbers but you clearly have no idea about how they affect the real world. You go on building Birminghams if it makes you happy. That would be another Brexit tax because you've no idea whatsoever about infrastructure planning. | |||
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"Now for the fishing industry, which you say has been decimated. That means reduced by one tenth, so as far as the number of fisherman employed between 2004 and 2014 is true, as is the number of boats. However the _iew you'd like to portray of an industry reduced to penury is total codswallop. Between 2004 and 2014 landings have increased in value from £531 million to £861 million." Oh here you go again... you create a false statement and then use it to ridicule someone. Except now YOU have been found out. From the Oxford English Dictionary: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/decimate Decimate Pronunciation: /'d?s?me?t/ VERB 1 Kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of: "the inhabitants of the country had been decimated" 1.1 Drastically reduce the strength or effectiveness of (something): "public transport has been decimated" 2. Historical: Kill one in every ten of (a group of people, originally a mutinous Roman legion) as a punishment for the whole group: "the man who is to determine whether it be necessary to decimate a large body of mutineers" Usage: Historically, the meaning of the word decimate is ‘kill one in every ten of (a group of people)’. This sense has been more or less totally superseded by the later, more general sense ‘kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of’, as in 'the virus has decimated the population'. Some traditionalists argue that this is incorrect, but it is clear that it is now part of standard English. So your initial statement is incorrect in current English and indeed in the context in which I used the word 'decimated'. So your corollary from that misrepresentation is also incorrect. But let me quote some facts: In 1973 there were 23,476 fishermen in the UK - by 2014 this had halved to 11,845. Between 2000 and 2012 the number of full time jobs in the UK sea fish processing industry has fallen from 22,256 to 11,864. I call that being decimated and I think most people will agree. So while you quote global numbers of catches you forget to mention that is fish landed in a UK port regardless of the nationality of the vessel and crew! In fact The UK is a net importer of fish, with net imports of around 220,000 tonnes in 2014 worth £1.2bn. | |||
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"Now for the fishing industry, which you say has been decimated. That means reduced by one tenth, so as far as the number of fisherman employed between 2004 and 2014 is true, as is the number of boats. However the _iew you'd like to portray of an industry reduced to penury is total codswallop. Between 2004 and 2014 landings have increased in value from £531 million to £861 million. Oh here you go again... you create a false statement and then use it to ridicule someone. Except now YOU have been found out. From the Oxford English Dictionary: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/decimate Decimate Pronunciation: /'d?s?me?t/ VERB 1 Kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of: "the inhabitants of the country had been decimated" 1.1 Drastically reduce the strength or effectiveness of (something): "public transport has been decimated" 2. Historical: Kill one in every ten of (a group of people, originally a mutinous Roman legion) as a punishment for the whole group: "the man who is to determine whether it be necessary to decimate a large body of mutineers" Usage: Historically, the meaning of the word decimate is ‘kill one in every ten of (a group of people)’. This sense has been more or less totally superseded by the later, more general sense ‘kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of’, as in 'the virus has decimated the population'. Some traditionalists argue that this is incorrect, but it is clear that it is now part of standard English. So your initial statement is incorrect in current English and indeed in the context in which I used the word 'decimated'. So your corollary from that misrepresentation is also incorrect. But let me quote some facts: In 1973 there were 23,476 fishermen in the UK - by 2014 this had halved to 11,845. Between 2000 and 2012 the number of full time jobs in the UK sea fish processing industry has fallen from 22,256 to 11,864. I call that being decimated and I think most people will agree. So while you quote global numbers of catches you forget to mention that is fish landed in a UK port regardless of the nationality of the vessel and crew! In fact The UK is a net importer of fish, with net imports of around 220,000 tonnes in 2014 worth £1.2bn." And over that time the mining industry was decimated as well was that the fault of the EU ....no neither is the fishing industry your so called facts do nothing to prove it was totally the fault the EU ..industries come and go with global economies ...and many will go with a brexit vote | |||
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"Now for the fishing industry, which you say has been decimated. That means reduced by one tenth, so as far as the number of fisherman employed between 2004 and 2014 is true, as is the number of boats. However the _iew you'd like to portray of an industry reduced to penury is total codswallop. Between 2004 and 2014 landings have increased in value from £531 million to £861 million. Oh here you go again... you create a false statement and then use it to ridicule someone. Except now YOU have been found out. From the Oxford English Dictionary: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/decimate Decimate Pronunciation: /'d?s?me?t/ VERB 1 Kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of: "the inhabitants of the country had been decimated" 1.1 Drastically reduce the strength or effectiveness of (something): "public transport has been decimated" 2. Historical: Kill one in every ten of (a group of people, originally a mutinous Roman legion) as a punishment for the whole group: "the man who is to determine whether it be necessary to decimate a large body of mutineers" Usage: Historically, the meaning of the word decimate is ‘kill one in every ten of (a group of people)’. This sense has been more or less totally superseded by the later, more general sense ‘kill, destroy, or remove a large proportion of’, as in 'the virus has decimated the population'. Some traditionalists argue that this is incorrect, but it is clear that it is now part of standard English. So your initial statement is incorrect in current English and indeed in the context in which I used the word 'decimated'. So your corollary from that misrepresentation is also incorrect. But let me quote some facts: In 1973 there were 23,476 fishermen in the UK - by 2014 this had halved to 11,845. Between 2000 and 2012 the number of full time jobs in the UK sea fish processing industry has fallen from 22,256 to 11,864. I call that being decimated and I think most people will agree. So while you quote global numbers of catches you forget to mention that is fish landed in a UK port regardless of the nationality of the vessel and crew! In fact The UK is a net importer of fish, with net imports of around 220,000 tonnes in 2014 worth £1.2bn." What I quoted was total landings of UK vessels. Carry on throwing up the smoke screen. | |||
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" I actually kinda take offence to this.... especially this bit.... "That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests." " Fabio I generally take what you say with great interest and respect even if I disagree wholeheartedly with your _iews. Its called respectful debate. However sadly I think you have not paid close enough attention and then run off with a pro-EU message. I said 'MAY NOT be ...etc' (my capitals to make the point). That point being when you hand over cash to someone and they decide how they wish to spend it means you have lost control of it. Which means whatever that is spent on may not be to your liking. So I was NOT saying in any way every piece of expenditure by the EU did not have any benefit did I? Please at least be honest and acknowledge that? You are happy to have some faceless unelected bureaucrats in Brussels spend our taxpayers money. Your money. My money. I am not. I want control over our money by people who can be elected or kicked out and who are responsible to people who pay those taxes. I seem to recall you are American? Forgive me if I am wrong but the point is still valid. There was a violent Civil War in the late 1700s in British America when Colonial Brits rebelled against a British Parliament over 'no Taxation without Representation'. While we are not holding muskets or AR15 rifles these days (at least not here in the UK) the principles are just the same. We 'rebels' feel our taxation is being used by people who do not represent us and are not elected by us. For the British Government of 1790s read the EU of the 2000s and that is how serious it is. Well at least to us Sir... | |||
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"And over that time the mining industry was decimated as well was that the fault of the EU ....no neither is the fishing industry your so called facts do nothing to prove it was totally the fault the EU ..industries come and go with global economies ...and many will go with a brexit vote " The difference between mining and fishing is that mining was a declining industry being overtaken by oil, gas and nuclear power generation and fewer industries using coal in their production cycles. Fishing is by no means a declining industry as a whole and the fact we import so much fish proves that point. The demand is there where it wasn't and isn't with coal. It is the Common Fishing Policy (that didn't actually exist until we joined the EEC in 1973 by the way) that has done the damage. Unlike other industries which have also declined over a similar time-scale - coal mining being the obvious example - there are no economic or environmental reasons why the UK’s fishing industry should have collapsed like this. The fishing industry has thrived in other North Atlantic countries (notably Norway, Iceland and Greenland), which have no major competitive advantage over their British counterparts. The decline in our British fishing industry is simply due to political, not economic or environmental factors. The major political factor influencing our British fishing industry has been our membership of the EU and the Common Fisheries Policy, which has been forced upon us as a result. If you don't believe my figures do please provide some alternatives to disprove them ... but there is no comparison between the mining and fishing industries ... | |||
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" So the 'Bremainers' cannot confuse the issue the key number £13,161,000. Or £13.2 Bn. In fairness someone said the 2015 figure was £12.9 Bn so not far out. That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests. Payments under the CAP or CFP not only can be maintained post Brexit but can be very focused to maximise the potential of our brilliant farmers, make more use of our land (rather than 'set aside') and finally give the investment and confidence our fishermen need to bring that industry back to where it rightfully belongs. No more throwing dead fish back into the sea to 'preserve stocks'!!! And no industry has been decimated by the EU like the British Fishing Industry.... I actually kinda take offence to this.... especially this bit.... That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests. its easy for you to say that... living in your oh so cosy part of the south east.... but try telling that to people living in lets say cornwall.... or northern ireland.... or scotland.... or south wales.... or the north east where that money goes on rejuvination projects.... liverpool john lennon airport... birmingham NIA.... the newcastle/gateshead quayside project.... the cardiff city centre/airport rail link.... the reinvention of the edinburgh/borders railway.... examples of where money has gone to helped by EU money.... the thing about that money is that it has gone to places precisely because the government of the day haven't put that money.... for example..i am again going to use local examples..... without the help of the EU Nissan probably would not have invested in sunderland, the EU helped give them that nudge.... Hitachi building the new UK high speed trains in Newton Aycliffe because of the help of EU funding..... at the beginning of this campaign all i ever wanted the leave side to do was to tell me the worst that could happen if we were to leave, and if i could say "well i could live with that" i would have probably voted out.... but no one has been honest, its been rosy eyed "we will get everything we want and give up nothing.... not only will they like it and lump it, they will also give us all sorts of sweetheart deals on the way out the door!!!" i'm sorry.... thats not realistic... i want to know what plan b is if you don't get what you want... and no one has been honest to tell me what that is... if i vote to stay.... at least i can see what the future is like... if i vote to leave... its like people telling us to go over the top... not knowing what is out there... it probably makes it much harder in my situation if we decide to leave, i have already started looking into the process of possibly getting an irish passport, but we shall see if the historical agreements remain in place.... " Sorry Fabio but you keep bringing up this term "EU money" on various EU threads. There is no such thing as "EU money" it is British taxpayers money handed over to the EU, then handed back to us and the EU tells us how to spend it. I think it would be better to cut out the EU middle man and have our own democratically elected government decide how to spend the money. If we don't like how the government is spending it then we can vote them out every 5 years at the next general election. Second point voting to stay is not a way of voting to see what the future is like. Voting to stay has its own risks such as the possibility of a future EU army, the possibility of countries like Turkey, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Albania joining which will mean accepting free movement of people from those countries, the possibility of higher future EU membership fees, the possibility of future EU bailouts for struggling countries in the Eurozone like Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc and as discussed on the Question Time special today with David Cameron the possibility that the EU could veto Cameron's renegotiation deal. All are risks so a vote to stay is not a vote for the status Quo. | |||
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" I actually kinda take offence to this.... especially this bit.... "That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests." Fabio I generally take what you say with great interest and respect even if I disagree wholeheartedly with your _iews. Its called respectful debate. However sadly I think you have not paid close enough attention and then run off with a pro-EU message. I said 'MAY NOT be ...etc' (my capitals to make the point). That point being when you hand over cash to someone and they decide how they wish to spend it means you have lost control of it. Which means whatever that is spent on may not be to your liking. So I was NOT saying in any way every piece of expenditure by the EU did not have any benefit did I? Please at least be honest and acknowledge that? You are happy to have some faceless unelected bureaucrats in Brussels spend our taxpayers money. Your money. My money. I am not. I want control over our money by people who can be elected or kicked out and who are responsible to people who pay those taxes. I seem to recall you are American? Forgive me if I am wrong but the point is still valid. There was a violent Civil War in the late 1700s in British America when Colonial Brits rebelled against a British Parliament over 'no Taxation without Representation'. While we are not holding muskets or AR15 rifles these days (at least not here in the UK) the principles are just the same. We 'rebels' feel our taxation is being used by people who do not represent us and are not elected by us. For the British Government of 1790s read the EU of the 2000s and that is how serious it is. Well at least to us Sir..." Unfortunately the British government has shown over the past forty years it cannot be trusted to spend British taxpayer money investing in British projects ..but the EU does ..undemocratic or not they invest our money in our country ..successive UK governments dont . | |||
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" What I quoted was total landings of UK vessels. Carry on throwing up the smoke screen. " It will be nice to have a source but lets accept that figure for the sake of discussion. On your figures British Trawlers land some 40% of the fish market (£860 million + £1.2 Billion). The only thing stopping them landing 100% or 80% is EU Rules and Directives in the form of the CFP. Spanish, French and Dutch trawlers should not be fishing our waters. I may not be 'clever' but that to me is irrefutable... Where does it make any sense for a Spanish trawler to catch fish in British waters, land them in Spain and then we truck them back to the UK? Doesn't happen? I know it happens because I used to drive those trucks and knew the industry... | |||
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" So the 'Bremainers' cannot confuse the issue the key number £13,161,000. Or £13.2 Bn. In fairness someone said the 2015 figure was £12.9 Bn so not far out. That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests. Payments under the CAP or CFP not only can be maintained post Brexit but can be very focused to maximise the potential of our brilliant farmers, make more use of our land (rather than 'set aside') and finally give the investment and confidence our fishermen need to bring that industry back to where it rightfully belongs. No more throwing dead fish back into the sea to 'preserve stocks'!!! And no industry has been decimated by the EU like the British Fishing Industry.... I actually kinda take offence to this.... especially this bit.... That is the cash we hand over to the EU. What they then spend it on is under their control not ours. What projects they spend it on here in the UK may not be our priorities or even in our national interests. its easy for you to say that... living in your oh so cosy part of the south east.... but try telling that to people living in lets say cornwall.... or northern ireland.... or scotland.... or south wales.... or the north east where that money goes on rejuvination projects.... liverpool john lennon airport... birmingham NIA.... the newcastle/gateshead quayside project.... the cardiff city centre/airport rail link.... the reinvention of the edinburgh/borders railway.... examples of where money has gone to helped by EU money.... the thing about that money is that it has gone to places precisely because the government of the day haven't put that money.... for example..i am again going to use local examples..... without the help of the EU Nissan probably would not have invested in sunderland, the EU helped give them that nudge.... Hitachi building the new UK high speed trains in Newton Aycliffe because of the help of EU funding..... at the beginning of this campaign all i ever wanted the leave side to do was to tell me the worst that could happen if we were to leave, and if i could say "well i could live with that" i would have probably voted out.... but no one has been honest, its been rosy eyed "we will get everything we want and give up nothing.... not only will they like it and lump it, they will also give us all sorts of sweetheart deals on the way out the door!!!" i'm sorry.... thats not realistic... i want to know what plan b is if you don't get what you want... and no one has been honest to tell me what that is... if i vote to stay.... at least i can see what the future is like... if i vote to leave... its like people telling us to go over the top... not knowing what is out there... it probably makes it much harder in my situation if we decide to leave, i have already started looking into the process of possibly getting an irish passport, but we shall see if the historical agreements remain in place.... Sorry Fabio but you keep bringing up this term "EU money" on various EU threads. There is no such thing as "EU money" it is British taxpayers money handed over to the EU, then handed back to us and the EU tells us how to spend it. I think it would be better to cut out the EU middle man and have our own democratically elected government decide how to spend the money. If we don't like how the government is spending it then we can vote them out every 5 years at the next general election. Second point voting to stay is not a way of voting to see what the future is like. Voting to stay has its own risks such as the possibility of a future EU army, the possibility of countries like Turkey, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Albania joining which will mean accepting free movement of people from those countries, the possibility of higher future EU membership fees, the possibility of future EU bailouts for struggling countries in the Eurozone like Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc and as discussed on the Question Time special today with David Cameron the possibility that the EU could veto Cameron's renegotiation deal. All are risks so a vote to stay is not a vote for the status Quo. " Risk management would look at the impact of an event and its likelihood then multiply the two together to get a measure of exposure. You've just provided a whole load of unquantified risks which time and time again people have explained to you have zero probability of coming into play. Of course you are relying on repeating your little porky pies often enough so that some people will fall for them. Fabio -- and may I call you sir too --- I do apologise for interrupting you and would like to explain most humbly that Brexit is planning to do to our economy what Guy Fawkes wanted to do to Parliament. Well maybe that bit was bullshit.... | |||
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" What I quoted was total landings of UK vessels. Carry on throwing up the smoke screen. It will be nice to have a source but lets accept that figure for the sake of discussion. On your figures British Trawlers land some 40% of the fish market (£860 million + £1.2 Billion). The only thing stopping them landing 100% or 80% is EU Rules and Directives in the form of the CFP. Spanish, French and Dutch trawlers should not be fishing our waters. I may not be 'clever' but that to me is irrefutable... Where does it make any sense for a Spanish trawler to catch fish in British waters, land them in Spain and then we truck them back to the UK? Doesn't happen? I know it happens because I used to drive those trucks and knew the industry..." The EU often does things that don't make any sense at all.....butter mountains and moving the EU parliament back and forth from Brussels to Strasbourg anyone? | |||
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" What I quoted was total landings of UK vessels. Carry on throwing up the smoke screen. It will be nice to have a source but lets accept that figure for the sake of discussion. On your figures British Trawlers land some 40% of the fish market (£860 million + £1.2 Billion). The only thing stopping them landing 100% or 80% is EU Rules and Directives in the form of the CFP. Spanish, French and Dutch trawlers should not be fishing our waters. I may not be 'clever' but that to me is irrefutable... Where does it make any sense for a Spanish trawler to catch fish in British waters, land them in Spain and then we truck them back to the UK? Doesn't happen? I know it happens because I used to drive those trucks and knew the industry..." Unfortunately berthing costs plus's fuel costs plus purchasing trawler plus wages plus maintenance all to run a trawler doesn't always make economic sense ..quite often it makes more economic sense to import ..unless of course you're saying fish prices should rise ..... | |||
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" What I quoted was total landings of UK vessels. Carry on throwing up the smoke screen. It will be nice to have a source but lets accept that figure for the sake of discussion. On your figures British Trawlers land some 40% of the fish market (£860 million + £1.2 Billion). The only thing stopping them landing 100% or 80% is EU Rules and Directives in the form of the CFP. Spanish, French and Dutch trawlers should not be fishing our waters. I may not be 'clever' but that to me is irrefutable... Where does it make any sense for a Spanish trawler to catch fish in British waters, land them in Spain and then we truck them back to the UK? Doesn't happen? I know it happens because I used to drive those trucks and knew the industry..." Can't be bothered to read all this but I'm astonished that you could be making sweeping statements about the fisheries industry without being aware of the MMO datasets and reports. I don't ask people to be 'clever', just honest in the way they use numbers. I'm frequently and massively disappointed by the Brexit campaign in that respect. Ah you drove the trucks too. Just like the last time you were on here. | |||
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" What I quoted was total landings of UK vessels. Carry on throwing up the smoke screen. It will be nice to have a source but lets accept that figure for the sake of discussion. On your figures British Trawlers land some 40% of the fish market (£860 million + £1.2 Billion). The only thing stopping them landing 100% or 80% is EU Rules and Directives in the form of the CFP. Spanish, French and Dutch trawlers should not be fishing our waters. I may not be 'clever' but that to me is irrefutable... Where does it make any sense for a Spanish trawler to catch fish in British waters, land them in Spain and then we truck them back to the UK? Doesn't happen? I know it happens because I used to drive those trucks and knew the industry... The EU often does things that don't make any sense at all.....butter mountains and moving the EU parliament back and forth from Brussels to Strasbourg anyone? " The butter mountain was so long ago that it's gone rancid, like the Brexit ideology that would bring it up. Still you could always wash your hands in the wine lake - that'll be mostly vinegar after 30 years. | |||
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" The £61 Bn a year trade deficit we run with the 'Single Market'? Yeah that is great value to our borrowings. see... i hate this figure being used in the context you are using it in, because that is misleading.... that 60 bil isn't the government... thats you and me!!!! so unless you are now going to become someone who only buys everything "made in britain" thats is not going to change.... people aren't going to stop buying for example bmw's or audi's.... they will just end up eating the extra tariff money!!!... for example... i know this is going to come as a shocker to you.... most fruit and veg we eat.... its not grown in the UK!!!!!! (next time you look at a tin on baked beans..... look where it is actually made!!!) are people going to start buying british if a european product is better... lets say a computer... of a hi -fi....or your flatscreen TV....... not on your life.... and lets not even start talking about clothes.... or sweeties.... " ...and that is precisely why the EU countries will be doing a favourable deal with the 5th largest economy in the world. You just clearly described why they need us more than we need them. And yes that £61 Bn is our money. I never said it wasn't. But it still has to be funded and the foreign currency purchased. A Trade Deficit is a very bad thing. A Trade Surplus is a very good thing. So being in the EU is currently, trade wise, not a very good thing at all. As I have said before its like paying someone to punch you in the nose ... And I am intrigued why you say here that £61 Bn is 'our' money and yet you say elsewhere the nett £13.2 Bn we pay to the EU is 'not our money'? | |||
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" What I quoted was total landings of UK vessels. Carry on throwing up the smoke screen. It will be nice to have a source but lets accept that figure for the sake of discussion. On your figures British Trawlers land some 40% of the fish market (£860 million + £1.2 Billion). The only thing stopping them landing 100% or 80% is EU Rules and Directives in the form of the CFP. Spanish, French and Dutch trawlers should not be fishing our waters. I may not be 'clever' but that to me is irrefutable... Where does it make any sense for a Spanish trawler to catch fish in British waters, land them in Spain and then we truck them back to the UK? Doesn't happen? I know it happens because I used to drive those trucks and knew the industry... Can't be bothered to read all this but I'm astonished that you could be making sweeping statements about the fisheries industry without being aware of the MMO datasets and reports. I don't ask people to be 'clever', just honest in the way they use numbers. I'm frequently and massively disappointed by the Brexit campaign in that respect. Ah you drove the trucks too. Just like the last time you were on here." Hmmmm ... the same personal remarks about what I haven't done or haven't read when I have provided many more statistics than you have. But never mind .... Oh and I am sure I am not the only Swinger who has driven a truck ... D'UH! | |||
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" What I quoted was total landings of UK vessels. Carry on throwing up the smoke screen. It will be nice to have a source but lets accept that figure for the sake of discussion. On your figures British Trawlers land some 40% of the fish market (£860 million + £1.2 Billion). The only thing stopping them landing 100% or 80% is EU Rules and Directives in the form of the CFP. Spanish, French and Dutch trawlers should not be fishing our waters. I may not be 'clever' but that to me is irrefutable... Where does it make any sense for a Spanish trawler to catch fish in British waters, land them in Spain and then we truck them back to the UK? Doesn't happen? I know it happens because I used to drive those trucks and knew the industry... Can't be bothered to read all this but I'm astonished that you could be making sweeping statements about the fisheries industry without being aware of the MMO datasets and reports. I don't ask people to be 'clever', just honest in the way they use numbers. I'm frequently and massively disappointed by the Brexit campaign in that respect. Ah you drove the trucks too. Just like the last time you were on here. Hmmmm ... the same personal remarks about what I haven't done or haven't read when I have provided many more statistics than you have. But never mind .... Oh and I am sure I am not the only Swinger who has driven a truck ... D'UH! "It's quality not quantity that counts. Just quoting a whole load of irrelevant numbers as a smoke screen is a bit like the cat sicking up a dead bird in the kitchen in the morning. Moderately entertaining but not very useful. | |||
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"Im leave , even people on the remain side have admitted that if we leave lower working class people will see there wages increase , i dont know about everyone else but its about time i got a pay rise . " If we don't get a self induced recession. | |||
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"Well I'm sure there would be some uncertainty in the short term but ling term the country would be better off ,the government have a vested interest in US staying in , the problems working class people have because of freedom of movement ( low wages , high rent ) aren't problems that would effect most politicians and business leaders , the European is all win win for them I'm sure , it's just working class people that have to pay for it " High rent is a consequence of selling off social housing and the middle class conspiracy of the green belt that restricts new house builds. That is not EU policy. It is the choice of Westminster. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. This is totally NOT true. They don't have to go. And neither will you
of course they will have to go if free movement ends.
What utter tosh. In your own words "if free movement ends" ergo they will be stuck here.
In any case residents of this country who contribute, respect OUR laws will always be welcome.
What we don't want is the continuation of unrestricted immigration that puts a strain on our beliefs and services.
The EU was a good thing in the beginning and I voted for it then but it has been hijacked by failed politicians in their native countries who are trying for a last gasp of power.
I personally expect to suffer a financial loss from leaving but it's the future of my children and grandchildren that concerns me.
If free movement ends they will have to return to their country of origin. that's not tosh it's a simple statement of fact.
No No and No again. It is tosh, complete tosh, total tosh, and absolute tosh.
Anyone who thinks that when free movement ends that every one will have to move back to their country of origin is either uninformed, deluded, or both.
Please look up, google, or whatever search you want to do and read the 1969 Vienna convention.
Then please drop this rubbish.
I have read it and I'd like some of what you are smoking because you are barking up the wrong tree. the vienna convention has nothing to do with free movement within the eu and countries who leave the eu."Of course it doesn't mention free movement within the EU. and in itself has nothing to do with free movement. What it does do however is set rules on treaties in international law. In this case all the treaties signed by Britain since joining the EU. (Rome, Maarstricht, Lisbon Etc.) and guarantees the rights of people who acted when those treaties were in force and protects those rights should a particular country secede from any treaty(s) It trumps EU law and retrospective action cannot be taken against anyone who acted (moved country) while a particular treaty was in force. One point worth noting however is that France did not sign it. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well." Very good but you have fallen for remain lies. Over half of the "foreign" workers in the NHS are for countries not in the EU. In any case there is no reason why any worker already here would have to return to their country of origin that is simply remain scare mongering. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. Very good but you have fallen for remain lies. Over half of the "foreign" workers in the NHS are for countries not in the EU. In any case there is no reason why any worker already here would have to return to their country of origin that is simply remain scare mongering. " It is scare mongering. It's worth noting that it only seems to come from the lower end of the remain campaign. Cameron and Co would never use it as they know that they could be called out on it far too easily. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. Very good but you have fallen for remain lies. Over half of the "foreign" workers in the NHS are for countries not in the EU. In any case there is no reason why any worker already here would have to return to their country of origin that is simply remain scare mongering. " the person who feared they would be sent home has already been re-assured many times on this We all need to stand firm and vote Leave | |||
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"I don't believe nothing will actually change whether in our out, our government isn't strong enough to carry this forward on their own. I'm staying in because I believe we are best as part of a bigger power. I have no problem with immigration i just beleive it needs to be managed properly. " Did you hear Jeremy Corbyn on Andrew Marr show....he stated categorically that in the EU we cannot control immigration in any way. He therefore sees no upper limit on migration...but he is fine with that (I sometimes think he is a secret Brexiter!) | |||
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DEFINATLEY OUT | |||
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"I don't believe nothing will actually change whether in our out, our government isn't strong enough to carry this forward on their own. I'm staying in because I believe we are best as part of a bigger power. I have no problem with immigration i just beleive it needs to be managed properly. Did you hear Jeremy Corbyn on Andrew Marr show....he stated categorically that in the EU we cannot control immigration in any way. He therefore sees no upper limit on migration...but he is fine with that (I sometimes think he is a secret Brexiter!)" 5th columnist? | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. Why would workers have to go home?????? you are aware this is for new immigrants not already here" Because they always leave in a recession, as they did last time. | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. Why would workers have to go home?????? you are aware this is for new immigrants not already here Because they always leave in a recession, as they did last time. " That is true. Why do you think Spanish , Portuguese, Italians and Greeks are coming to Britain in droves? 50% youth unemployment could be a clue. | |||
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"Im leave , even people on the remain side have admitted that if we leave lower working class people will see there wages increase , i dont know about everyone else but its about time i got a pay rise . " Not sure where you read that the only people claiming higher wager for a brexit vote is the brexit campaign hoping to dupe you into giving them your vote ...wages are governed by global market forces not EU membership .... | |||
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"Stay, cos the amount of workers that would have to go home otherwise, as the majority makes up the nhs, care workers, cleaners, those of works in fields as well. Why would workers have to go home?????? you are aware this is for new immigrants not already here Because they always leave in a recession, as they did last time. That is true. Why do you think Spanish , Portuguese, Italians and Greeks are coming to Britain in droves? 50% youth unemployment could be a clue. "More UK citizens migrate to the above mentioned nations than come to the UK ...and yes in recession immigrants go home just as the Brits did in Germany and Spain when the building recession hit those countries .... | |||
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"Im leave , even people on the remain side have admitted that if we leave lower working class people will see there wages increase , i dont know about everyone else but its about time i got a pay rise . Not sure where you read that the only people claiming higher wager for a brexit vote is the brexit campaign hoping to dupe you into giving them your vote ...wages are governed by global market forces not EU membership ...." Market forces yes. Global market forces not. On that basis we would have people working for a dollar a day. The job market is governed by a combination of local market forces and government legislation. Put into that mix a country where there are relatively high wages and free movement of people from very low wage countries and it will always affect the market and keep wages down at (and in some cases below) the minimum. | |||
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