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The Referendum by Numbers: The Cost of EU Membership

By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

I have noticed that the EU referendum is characterised by two politicians shouting contradictory statistics at each other. Entertaining, possibly, but not very helpful.

Let's put this right with some good old information.

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By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

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By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

The first question is more straightforwards.

The leave campaign is very clear on this – the cost of EU membership is £350m per week. And if we left, that is money we can spend as we wished.

But is this number correct?

No - the claim is false. If we left the EU, we wouldn’t have an extra £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS.

To get this number the Leave campaign hasn’t factored in any of the money that the EU spends on farmers, aid to poorer British regions (esp. Wales and Cornwall), but also to British businesses. Therefore, the figure of £350m per week is misleading. And this doesn’t even touch the matter of the rebate.

So how much *could* we save?

In 2014, the UK gave £280m a week to the EU and received back £90m a week for famers and poorer regions, plus another £50m per week on UK companies.

So the best claim that could be made is that the UK would save £280m per week but that ignores the lost payments to regions, farming and business. Include those payments and the UK saves £140m per week.

But if the UK continues to pay some fees, like Norway and Switzerland, the saving would be lower than that.

So whatever the number is, it’s not £350m a week.

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By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

So is that money well spent? If the UK has to pay money to the EU, what does it gain or lose as a result?

The simple answer is that the stakes are much higher than the membership fee.

Both sides of the debate have produced stats to say the UK will grow faster or contract as a result of Brexit. But the numbers on both sides are much larger than the membership fee - well over £1bn per week, perhaps £2 or 3bn per week.

Both sides agree that the implications of Brexit are much greater than the cost of the membership fee. But where do these big numbers come from? From economic models that try to simulate how the economy works. Some are simple, others more complex. Some lean on theory while others rely on data about economic history.

The most reported model came from the UK Treasury and it produced some very big, scary numbers. Specifically, George Osborne warned that:

“...In the long run, GDP would be over 6% smaller and Britain would be worse-off by £4,300 per household...”

So let’s take a look at that.

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By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

“In the long run, GDP would be 6% smaller”

What that means is that Treasury models suggest that after 15 years would be 6% smaller – not smaller than it is today, but smaller because we left the EU. In pound, that means that the UK economy would be around £115bn a year smaller.

(those of you who want to compare that number to the issue of the EU membership fees, take note – the GDP loss is more than 10 times larger at £2.2bn a week)

The Treasury arrived at this figure by dividing the big GDP loss by the number of households in the UK. This isn’t very good either. It conflates GDP with household income, for one... But the number isn’t false.

But. Can we really believe a 15-year forecast? To some extent it’s clearly rubbish but it depends on how you forecast.

If, for instance, you say I have no idea what you will weigh in 15 years’ time, fair enough. I have no idea. But I can say if you drink a large bottle of Coke every day I’m pretty sure you’re gonna weight more than if you didn’t. The difference is easier to forecast than the actual amount.

Of course the fizzy drink explanation might not apply if I also start training for a marathon as well as drink ... any model can be wrong.

What is clear is that in the short term there will be a great deal of uncertainty if we leave and that won’t be helpful for the economy. Even Brexiteers accept that in the range of £40-£60bn a year.

(many times greater than the question of our membership fees btw)

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By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

But what about the longer term? What assumptions are fair?

Pretty much everyone is agreed that, at least in the short term, trade with the EU will fall.

So where are the disagreements?

The Treasury also assumes that inward investment will fall – eg, foreign car manufacturers might not want to build cars in a country outside the EU’s single market. Brexiteers disagree with that and say that leaving will allow us to trade more freely with the rest of the world and might be good for the economy. The Treasury doesn’t.

Andrew Lillicoe (a chief economist for Leave) doesn’t base his views for leaving purely on economic grounds: “I don’t think that you should assume that trade deals we would get with EU countries would be better than the ones we currently have within the EU. Not seeking to leave the EU in order to get better trade deals – that’s not the point.

“It’s that you don’t lose so much that you can seize the very significant gains in terms of self-determination, the constitution, self-control, sovereignty – all of those kinds of things – and the geo-political gains of various sorts.

“I think that the case is relatively balanced. So I’ve done a set of estimates of the impact of leaving the EU. I think it’s between a 1% loss and a 2% gain in GDP by 2030.”

Clearly the decision on Brexit is about more than some mangled and suspect statistics. It is also about the ability of the British Government to make its own rules about trade, law and immigration.

Fortunately, I’ll be having a look at those in turn...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

FACT IS; NOBODY KNOWS EITHER WAY

not even you Joe

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But there is a third.

What would it cost us if we didn't?

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By *omersetfun15Couple over a year ago

bridgwater

"The first question is more straightforwards.

The leave campaign is very clear on this – the cost of EU membership is £350m per week. And if we left, that is money we can spend as we wished.

But is this number correct?

No - the claim is false. If we left the EU, we wouldn’t have an extra £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS.

So how much *could* we save?

In 2014, the UK gave £280m a week to the EU and received back £90m a week for famers and poorer regions, plus another £50m per week on UK companies.

But if the UK continues to pay some fees, like Norway and Switzerland, the saving would be lower than that.

So whatever the number is, it’s not £350m a week.

Im more worried about still being able to buy kronenbourg

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By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

"FACT IS; NOBODY KNOWS EITHER WAY

not even you Joe

Correct - I can only provide unbiased information

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By *omersetfun15Couple over a year ago

bridgwater

"FACT IS; NOBODY KNOWS EITHER WAY

not even you Joe

Correct - I can only provide unbiased information"

How can anyone accurately forecast what will happen in 2030?

Does anyone care probably not

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The first question is more straightforwards.

The leave campaign is very clear on this – the cost of EU membership is £350m per week. And if we left, that is money we can spend as we wished.

But is this number correct?

No - the claim is false. If we left the EU, we wouldn’t have an extra £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS.

So how much *could* we save?

In 2014, the UK gave £280m a week to the EU and received back £90m a week for famers and poorer regions, plus another £50m per week on UK companies.

But if the UK continues to pay some fees, like Norway and Switzerland, the saving would be lower than that.

So whatever the number is, it’s not £350m a week.

Im more worried about still being able to buy kronenbourg"

It's made in good ol' Yorkshire so don't worry about it

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By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

"FACT IS; NOBODY KNOWS EITHER WAY

not even you Joe

Correct - I can only provide unbiased information

How can anyone accurately forecast what will happen in 2030?

Does anyone care probably not"

Read the posts and see

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Change is good...lets embrace it together...work together...struggle together...succeed together and celebrate the unity that this can bring.

The EU is anything but together...members inside it don't all embrace it...they're not working for it ( only for what they can get out of it)...they're all struggling but in different directions.... not alot of success if our government and others are to go by.....and few if any are celebrating except the fat business bureaucrats.

So......

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

There is no unbiased information as all the cases for and against leaving make assumptions. That's what the treasury did.

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By *omersetfun15Couple over a year ago

bridgwater

"Change is good...lets embrace it together...work together...struggle together...succeed together and celebrate the unity that this can bring.

So......"

This has got to be the most sensible comment to date!!

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

that doesn't take into consideration money that comes back via farming and fisheries subsidies, money for infrusture projects, arts, sciences and many other things..... which is estimated at about 6 billion pounds...

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week....."

Is the rebate set in stone?

Can it NEVER be removed?

Or can the EU remove this rebate? that is the question can the EU remove this rebate

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By *rightonsteveMan over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

You may like to consider that what's good in the EU for multinationals and large companies that trade globally, might not be what's good for you as an individual. Yes, benefits might cascade down but will take a long time and will be minimal. It might be better, for example, small businesses, to be free of the EU red tape and so employ individuals more easily. No one will stop trading with us just because we are not in the EU and I don't believe that trade will be more difficult or more costly when you factor in pure and simple supply and demand economics.

I am still undecided

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"You may like to consider that what's good in the EU for multinationals and large companies that trade globally, might not be what's good for you as an individual. Yes, benefits might cascade down but will take a long time and will be minimal. It might be better, for example, small businesses, to be free of the EU red tape and so employ individuals more easily. No one will stop trading with us just because we are not in the EU and I don't believe that trade will be more difficult or more costly when you factor in pure and simple supply and demand economics.

I am still undecided

What "red tape" will the UK be free of if bit leaves the EU? Also, which of the red tape that we will supposedly be free of will subsequently be still needed if we are to trade with the EU?

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week....."

And that amount will be wiped out if the economy shrinks by around 0.5% as a consequence of Brexit.

Considering that even Brexit leaders accept that there would be an economic reaction to the UK leaving the EU any savings made from us exiting and not paying would be lost oft he economy shrinks by 0.6%. Any shrinkage at all will of course incrementally reduce the so called savings.

Considering how much of our economy is tied to Europe and how many Brexiters no longer want free movement of people it seems inconceivable that there would not not be a negative economic reaction.

In short, the savings argument is somewhat irrelevant as there will not be any.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

Is the rebate set in stone?

Can it NEVER be removed?

Or can the EU remove this rebate? that is the question can the EU remove this rebate"

an impartial answer....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36085281

basically enough it is not set in stone the EU cannot remove it unless the UK gave up its power of veto over it......

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By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

I am still undecided

Which is why I'm aiming to talk about the issues in an unbiased fashion

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week....."

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

So about £2 per week per person. I'm return for which we get to trade tariff free with some of the riches countries in the world.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

and if the leave campaign had put that on the side of the bus... i think we would have had a different conversation

but leave had to fib........... and then instead of admitting it, they doubled down on it instead....

how gove/johnson manage to keep a straight face when they defend it is beyond me....

when farage is the voice of reason and say they shouldn't use it, maybe that says it all......

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

So about £2 per week per person. I'm return for which we get to trade tariff free with some of the riches countries in the world. "

I am a simple person so I'll put this simply. Just for the money I see it like this.

I get a job with a company and they say they will pay my £500 a week.

But to get this £500 I have to give them £200 pounds a week for the privilege of working for them.

With my so far

But being a nice company they will give me £100 back a week if they feel like it.

Does that make good sense to you.

Sounds like the EU to me we give them £350M and if we are good we get some back, but they have the say on how much.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I have been wondering why the EU actually want us when our main export this past week or so has been d*unken louts following the national sides.

Incidentally I was in Spalding yesterday and I can well understand why the local indigenous population is vehemently anti-EU. The remain side have totally ignored the effects of mass immigration on small towns and offer absolutely nothing to resolve the problems.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

oh well, you have convinced me, guess I will vote remain on 23rd

wait

. I have already voted

. never mind, maybe next time

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

So about £2 per week per person. I'm return for which we get to trade tariff free with some of the riches countries in the world.

I am a simple person so I'll put this simply. Just for the money I see it like this.

I get a job with a company and they say they will pay my £500 a week.

But to get this £500 I have to give them £200 pounds a week for the privilege of working for them.

With my so far

But being a nice company they will give me £100 back a week if they feel like it.

Does that make good sense to you.

Sounds like the EU to me we give them £350M and if we are good we get some back, but they have the say on how much.

nope it's not like that at all but never mind.we don't pay £350m. it's a big fat lie

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?"

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I have been wondering why the EU actually want us when our main export this past week or so has been d*unken louts following the national sides.

I know coming over here doing all the jobs we won't do for ourselves.

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By *omersetfun15Couple over a year ago

bridgwater

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

So about £2 per week per person. I'm return for which we get to trade tariff free with some of the riches countries in the world. "

Also some of the poorest,Greece,Spain,Portugal need i go on

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels. "

Only about half what we put in thou

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?"

the economy is far bigger than it would be if we were out.

many firms are here because we are in

prices are lower because we are in

enough?

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

Yes.

It sounds a lot, doesn't it?

But with a GDP of around 3trillion, it would only take a ¼% drop to wipe this figure out.

A 3% drop in GDP would equate to 1.7 billion a week (around ? of our NHS budget

)

How's it looking now?

Mr ddc

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou "

not true

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

Yes.

It sounds a lot, doesn't it?

But with a GDP of around 3trillion, it would only take a ¼% drop to wipe this figure out.

A 3% drop in GDP would equate to 1.7 billion a week (around ? of our NHS budget

)

How's it looking now?

Mr ddc"

Honesty to much

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By *ixson-BallsMan over a year ago

Blackpool

Is the rebate set in stone?

Can it NEVER be removed?

Or can the EU remove this rebate? that is the question can the EU remove this rebate

an impartial answer....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36085281

basically enough it is not set in stone the EU cannot remove it unless the UK gave up its power of veto over it......"

an impartial answer...from the BBC???..the left leaning BBC!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

not true"

oh we get it all back, great I change me vote then

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou "

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half. "

That's why I said about

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The final thing that has put me in the Remain camp was an actual action of the economy.

Once the leave poll figures came out and it was closer to been an actual challenge the price of sterling dropped, and has dropped again. That for me tells me more than any untrustworthy politician ever could.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

the economy is far bigger than it would be if we were out.

many firms are here because we are in

prices are lower because we are in

enough? "

they are not facts

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half.

That's why I said about

Lol yeah but that's all we know, what about subsidens like the billions of pounds Sheffield got to fix it's roads, or build the advance manufacturering Park which wouldn't have been possible without EU funding. I'd be surprised if the difference is actually any more than £50 mil which to government is like a penny to us.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Please can we get back to the important issues of the day such as squirting, cock size, time wasters and the cost of singles guys getting into clubs? I just cannot deal with trivia of a referendum.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

the economy is far bigger than it would be if we were out.

many firms are here because we are in

prices are lower because we are in

enough?

they are not facts"

and pray tell what is your definition of the word fact if those are not facts?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half.

That's why I said about

Most sites, including the BBC, say after taking out all the rebates and funding given to the UK it still cost us £161M a week to say in.

This is on 2014/15 fingers.

Are they right well I do tend to believe the BBC.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half.

That's why I said about

Most sites, including the BBC, say after taking out all the rebates and funding given to the UK it still cost us £161M a week to say in.

This is on 2014/15 fingers.

Are they right well I do tend to believe the BBC."

Yeah I get that in subsides, but what about local funding that's not included? The AMP in Sheffield/Rotherham has been an outstanding success, bringing firms like Boeing, Rolls Royce and other major engineering players to the city. All made possible by the EU, hundreds of millions have gone, thousands of jobs created and including building thousands of new homes on the adjacent land too. Again all thanks to EU money not included in all the figures.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

"Clearly the decision on Brexit is about more than some mangled and suspect statistics. It is also about the ability of the British Government to make its own rules about trade, law and immigration.

Fortunately, I’ll be having a look at those in turn...

Good.

Because if it was just about the money, England would vote to leave the UK, and London would vote to leave England.

We would be free at last to set our own laws: perhaps someone could give us an estimate of the proportion of British laws over the past 300 years that have improved life for the common man?

I still remember a time when we were free to set our own laws and how these generally benefited business.

Yes we could have stopped pumping raw sewage onto our beaches, but did we?

Yes we could have legislated against tipping our waste everywhere and polluting our groundwater, rivers and streams, but did we?

Yes we could stop farmers maximising yields at the expense of the wildlife, except we paid them to do the opposite.

Yes we could have prevented the pollution that blighted our lives by investing in green energy, but did we while we had coal, gas and oil?

I could go on all day: for every piece of misrepresented legislation coming from the EU, there are plenty that have improved our quality of life.

EU legislation is passed by negotiations involving many different parties. As many like to regularly point out, ours is made by parties that rarely command more then ¼ of the popular vote...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My problem is I'm not sure which way to vote. I have read tons and tons about it, but the two sides are completely contradicting eachothers figures and statements. I watched the question time thing last night and someone mentioned that they swap the definition of billions (either 100 million or 1 million million) depending on their aguement. So now I have no clue what to believe. I need someone like Australia to make a leaflet with the actual unbiased facts on them (how much does it cost, what would we save, how being in the eu affects business and what would change etc) so I think I'm voting remain because I don't know enough to decide I need change

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half.

That's why I said about

Most sites, including the BBC, say after taking out all the rebates and funding given to the UK it still cost us £161M a week to say in.

This is on 2014/15 fingers.

Are they right well I do tend to believe the BBC.

Great but at the end of the day isn't that the UK money just coming back, I am sure if we had got back more then we paid in the remain boys would have been all over it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half.

That's why I said about

Most sites, including the BBC, say after taking out all the rebates and funding given to the UK it still cost us £161M a week to say in.

This is on 2014/15 fingers.

Are they right well I do tend to believe the BBC.

Great but at the end of the day isn't that the UK money just coming back, I am sure if we had got back more then we paid in the remain boys would have been all over it.

Yes, and that from Germany, France, Spain and everywhere else that pays in too.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

Your replies to your self asked questions _iamondjoe are interesting but I would have to say wrong. Because for all your details you do nothing more than rehash the smoke and mirrors 'slagging off' match that is being played out daily.

The answer to question 1 is: Financially NOTHING!

The answer to question 2 is: Financially NOTHING!

The reason the in and out campaigns are shouting about money is they are both frightened of the result. The out side are attempting bribe us into voting for them with the lure of £350 million a day. The in side are using the spectre of economic collapse and a drop in living standards blackmail us into voting their way.

BOTH are LYING!

The truth is if we vote out we will still pay the same £350 million a day for access to the EU markets and get back the same £150 million a day from the EU. Just it will be called import and export duties.

Some businesses will be lost when they relocate to places with lower production costs. They will do this regardless of us being in or out of the EU. However if we vote out they will use that as an excuse.

Our economic output and relative wealth as a nation will continue to shrink as it has done since the end of WW2. This will also be blamed on an out vote by those who have and are presiding over the dismantlement and sale to foreign countries of our economy for their personal gain.

There will be short term economic consequences no matter which way we vote due to financial market manipulation by speculators looking to make a quick killing.

There will be long term consequences no matter which way the vote goes but they will be political so I will not list them here as this thread is about the financial not political costs and consequences of the referendum.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

"...at the end of the day isn't that the UK money just coming back, I am sure if we had got back more then we paid in the remain boys would have been all over it.

To be fair, I think that is their very point: that, when you look at the overall picture, our membership gives us back so much more. Certainly more than a few mill that probably won't even exist if we vote to leave.

(A fact the markets are already indicating, so not just speculation)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

One question, it seems like the sensible view is that we send about a net £100m plus a week to the EU. Does anyone know what happens to that cash? I'm assuming other countries also contribute. So to quote much more intelligent people than me "where's the f&@king money??"

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"I have been wondering why the EU actually want us when our main export this past week or so has been d*unken louts following the national sides.

You only have to look at places like corralejo.caleta de fuste .costa Antigua ..to see the British immigrants have completely taken.over in the EU ....works both ways ...

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By *rightonsteveMan over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

I am still undecided

Which is why I'm aiming to talk about the issues in an unbiased fashion

You are kind

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

"One question, it seems like the sensible view is that we send about a net £100m plus a week to the EU. Does anyone know what happens to that cash? I'm assuming other countries also contribute. So to quote much more intelligent people than me "where's the f&@king money??"

It is spent on the poorer areas of the EU. Helping improve their countries, raise their living standards (so they don't have to come here for jobs) and increase the market for our goods.

Much the same as West Germany did for East Germany. It costs in the short-term, but in the long-term the benefits are enormous.

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By *rightonsteveMan over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

It is spent on the poorer areas of the EU. Helping improve their countries, raise their living standards (so they don't have to come here for jobs) and increase the market for our goods.

Much the same as West Germany did for East Germany. It costs in the short-term, but in the long-term the benefits are enormous. "

I wish the benefits were like my cock then.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It is spent on the poorer areas of the EU. Helping improve their countries, raise their living standards (so they don't have to come here for jobs) and increase the market for our goods.

Much the same as West Germany did for East Germany. It costs in the short-term, but in the long-term the benefits are enormous. "

So one big Keynesian economic experiment! Thank you, I've got it. Would be interesting to see a break down of the net contributors and receivers and the economic growth that has been achieved and the trade impacts for the UK. But probably a bit late in the day for some proper financial analysis.

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By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

It costs in the short-term, but in the long-term the benefits are enormous.

I wish the benefits were like my cock then. "

I'm sure that while reading threads like these, the effect on your cock may be foreshortening, when seeing Fab as a whole, I'm certain the effect is highly beneficial

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"I have been wondering why the EU actually want us when our main export this past week or so has been d*unken louts following the national sides.

You only have to look at places like corralejo.caleta de fuste .costa Antigua ..to see the British immigrants have completely taken.over in the EU ....works both ways ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In a pension review this morning my financial advisor explained the recent reduction in my pension of 3,6% being due to volatility the markets over the uncertainty of the referendum. So how would Mr Gove and Mr Johnson explain the benefits of BREXIT to me?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

the economy is far bigger than it would be if we were out.

many firms are here because we are in

prices are lower because we are in

enough?

they are not facts

and pray tell what is your definition of the word fact if those are not facts? "

I suppose my definition would be whetever it says in the dictionary so you have not given any facts

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"In a pension review this morning my financial advisor explained the recent reduction in my pension of 3,6% being due to volatility the markets over the uncertainty of the referendum. So how would Mr Gove and Mr Johnson explain the benefits of BREXIT to me?"

There is always market uncertainty, your pension pot was worth a lot less during the Greek debt crisis and potential Euro collapse. But short term for sure and longer term possibly the value of financial assets could be worth less than they are today. But most of the shares and assets your pension will hold are multinational global companies that should continue to thrive for many years to come, but markets will value them higher or lower at various points for lots of both rational and irrational reasons.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I accept that markets fluctuate but this is a needless risk to the economy as a whole to pander to some old etonians who still have visions of an empire!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

the economy is far bigger than it would be if we were out.

many firms are here because we are in

prices are lower because we are in

enough?

they are not facts

and pray tell what is your definition of the word fact if those are not facts?

I suppose my definition would be whetever it says in the dictionary so you have not given any facts"

I think you will find they are indeed facts, just ones you don't want to believe.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

the economy is far bigger than it would be if we were out.

many firms are here because we are in

prices are lower because we are in

enough?

they are not facts

and pray tell what is your definition of the word fact if those are not facts?

I suppose my definition would be whetever it says in the dictionary so you have not given any facts

I think you will find they are indeed facts, just ones you don't want to believe. "

They are not facts. Can you tell me how big our economy etc will be if we leave the EU or if we had never been a part of it? No. Nobody knows, so they are not facts

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

the economy is far bigger than it would be if we were out.

many firms are here because we are in

prices are lower because we are in

enough?

they are not facts

and pray tell what is your definition of the word fact if those are not facts?

I suppose my definition would be whetever it says in the dictionary so you have not given any facts

I think you will find they are indeed facts, just ones you don't want to believe.

They are not facts. Can you tell me how big our economy etc will be if we leave the EU or if we had never been a part of it? No. Nobody knows, so they are not facts"

the first part of your question needs to be answered by the outers as that is what they want.

the second part Google is your friend.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I have been wondering why the EU actually want us when our main export this past week or so has been d*unken louts following the national sides.

You only have to look at places like corralejo.caleta de fuste .costa Antigua ..to see the British immigrants have completely taken.over in the EU ....works both ways ..."

and so two wrongs make a right you mean ?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is."

It's pretty much because even though there are some important issues and points raised, the mass entertainment fed majority prefer to believe the soundbites and one liners and who are we to argue with democracy.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.

Ah entertainment, the joy of knowing that there is a positive reason why I am being ignored here.

Seems my remarks about an MP being killed over this issue in another thread have stirred up quite a response though!

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.

Ah entertainment, the joy of knowing that there is a positive reason why I am being ignored here.

Seems my remarks about an MP being killed over this issue in another thread have stirred up quite a response though!

your remarks are vile, disgusting and totally out of order fella, you need to take a long hard look at yourself and maybe step away from social media for a while..

shame on you..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.

Ah entertainment, the joy of knowing that there is a positive reason why I am being ignored here.

Seems my remarks about an MP being killed over this issue in another thread have stirred up quite a response though!

I can't fathom why you think your comments are acceptable.

As I said before. Have some respect.

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By *asokittyWoman over a year ago

Nr Worksop

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.

Ah entertainment, the joy of knowing that there is a positive reason why I am being ignored here.

Seems my remarks about an MP being killed over this issue in another thread have stirred up quite a response though!

Seriously. Here too. Vile..truly vile.

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.

Ah entertainment, the joy of knowing that there is a positive reason why I am being ignored here.

Seems my remarks about an MP being killed over this issue in another thread have stirred up quite a response though!

Seriously. Here too. Vile..truly vile. "

Again give it a rest for the day in respect of Jo cox

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.

Ah entertainment, the joy of knowing that there is a positive reason why I am being ignored here.

Seems my remarks about an MP being killed over this issue in another thread have stirred up quite a response though!

Seriously. Here too. Vile..truly vile.

Again give it a rest for the day in respect of Jo cox "

I'm sorry, I don't see your point?

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.

Ah entertainment, the joy of knowing that there is a positive reason why I am being ignored here.

Seems my remarks about an MP being killed over this issue in another thread have stirred up quite a response though!

Seriously. Here too. Vile..truly vile.

Again give it a rest for the day in respect of Jo cox

I'm sorry, I don't see your point?"
my point is mp Jo cox has been killed and both sides have suspended campaigning for the day ..especially in light of what the suspect may have been shouting before he let rip ..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is."
After your previous comments on other threads you need a life ban from the forums.

Disgraceful.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

(I said)

LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.

"After your previous comments on other threads you need a life ban from the forums.

Disgraceful."

Really?

Want to quote my post previous to the one you did quote and justify your statement by repudiating what I said?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"(I said)

LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.

After your previous comments on other threads you need a life ban from the forums.

Disgraceful.

Really?

Want to quote my post previous to the one you did quote and justify your statement by repudiating what I said? "
The one about David Cameron and sticking. The thread has been closed quite rightly.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.After your previous comments on other threads you need a life ban from the forums.

Disgraceful."
.

I always think people who joined 7 days ago and are therefore only just allowed to post should break themselves into forums slowly!.

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By *olgateMan over a year ago

on the road to nowhere in particular

"The first question is more straightforwards.

The leave campaign is very clear on this – the cost of EU membership is £350m per week. And if we left, that is money we can spend as we wished.

But is this number correct?

No - the claim is false. If we left the EU, we wouldn’t have an extra £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS.

So how much *could* we save?

In 2014, the UK gave £280m a week to the EU and received back £90m a week for famers and poorer regions, plus another £50m per week on UK companies.

But if the UK continues to pay some fees, like Norway and Switzerland, the saving would be lower than that.

So whatever the number is, it’s not £350m a week.

Incorrect, the £350 million (actually £368,000,000) is the difference between what we pay out and what we get back

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"LoL @ all the In and Out lobbyists here!

4 Hours ago I answered the 2 questions this post is about and explained why I had arrived at my answers.

So far not a single reply from either side.

That speaks volumes about how fragile all your black propaganda really is.After your previous comments on other threads you need a life ban from the forums.

Disgraceful..

I always think people who joined 7 days ago and are therefore only just allowed to post should break themselves into forums slowly!.

Your comments are noted. But I stand by mine be it 7 days or 7 years.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half.

That's why I said about

Most sites, including the BBC, say after taking out all the rebates and funding given to the UK it still cost us £161M a week to say in.

This is on 2014/15 fingers.

Are they right well I do tend to believe the BBC.

Great but at the end of the day isn't that the UK money just coming back, I am sure if we had got back more then we paid in the remain boys would have been all over it.

It's likely that we have got far more back than have paid in but as Mr DDC states there are changes that we could have done - but did not - though have due to EU membership. Those changes are almost priceless.

In any event, the claimed cost of membership is a tiny fraction of 1% of our economy. It's so tiny that it's virtually negligible, from an economist's perspective. Big sums to the ordinary people are inconceivably trivial to those who manage national economies.

We're at a point post recession where we should not jeopardize recovery. Stronger economies like the USA are still just getting there. We're stupid to put ourselves at risk whilst the global economy is in such a risk prone condition.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"The one about David Cameron and sticking. The thread has been closed quite rightly."

So you feel it is OK to make your attacking comment on my post without any reference or justification?

here is the post you think is unacceptable:

The answer to question 1 is: Financially NOTHING!

The answer to question 2 is: Financially NOTHING!

BOTH are LYING!

There will be short term economic consequences no matter which way we vote due to financial market manipulation by speculators looking to make a quick killing.

Want to justify your uninformed and political decisive prejudices?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

And to all if I have made a mistake in numbers it is by powers of 10 and to all figures quoted.

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"FACT IS; NOBODY KNOWS EITHER WAY

not even you Joe

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

#handbags

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

If I was an insurance provider for the UK economy, I'd not have absolute certainty but I would vastly increase the premiums for brexit, based on available figures.

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"If I was an insurance provider for the UK economy, I'd not have absolute certainty but I would vastly increase the premiums for brexit, based on available figures."

But are the figures real?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The one about David Cameron and sticking. The thread has been closed quite rightly.

So you feel it is OK to make your attacking comment on my post without any reference or justification?

here is the post you think is unacceptable:

The answer to question 1 is: Financially NOTHING!

The answer to question 2 is: Financially NOTHING!

BOTH are LYING!

There will be short term economic consequences no matter which way we vote due to financial market manipulation by speculators looking to make a quick killing.

Want to justify your uninformed and political decisive prejudices? "
You are not quoting the correct thread. Your comments are unacceptable and I stand by my view.

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By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

"FACT IS; NOBODY KNOWS EITHER WAY

not even you Joe

In which case it goes both ways - the poster can't say he knows with surety either.

I'm merely examining the claims and providing facts.

That's all.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"FACT IS; NOBODY KNOWS EITHER WAY

not even you Joe

In which case it goes both ways - the poster can't say he knows with surety either.

I'm merely examining the claims and providing facts.

That's all.

who's facts!!!!!!

don't believe all you read and hear, many have alternative motives

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We were having lunch out yesterday and chatting to a Spanish guy and French lady. They think that we all agree with Nigel Farage's view on immigration and I felt sad that they think that's how we see anyone who's not from the UK. I got the impression that they've had a harder time from people as the referendum approaches. They were lovely and working hard.

Sarah

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We were having lunch out yesterday and chatting to a Spanish guy and French lady. They think that we all agree with Nigel Farage's view on immigration and I felt sad that they think that's how we see anyone who's not from the UK. I got the impression that they've had a harder time from people as the referendum approaches. They were lovely and working hard.

Sarah "

I have a Spanish lesson every week from a Spanish girl, just for someone talk Spanish with. They are here because her engineer husband was made redundant and couldn't find work in Spain and are in negative equity at home so rent out their apartment there. They like the people here and are treated well and made many friends but hate living here but for the time being feel they are stuck. They blame the EU and the Euro for their problems and fully support the people who want to leave the EU

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

So about £2 per week per person. I'm return for which we get to trade tariff free with some of the riches countries in the world.

I am a simple person so I'll put this simply. Just for the money I see it like this.

I get a job with a company and they say they will pay my £500 a week.

But to get this £500 I have to give them £200 pounds a week for the privilege of working for them.

With my so far

But being a nice company they will give me £100 back a week if they feel like it.

Does that make good sense to you.

Sounds like the EU to me we give them £350M and if we are good we get some back, but they have the say on how much.

Look at it this way;

You join a social club, for which there is an annual fee.

As oaetbifvthst, you have access to a range of things; a bar, social events, perhaps discounts with sports stores . You agree to abide bybthevfulrs of the club, but you do have a say in those rules at the AGM.

But you dont want to pay full fees, because for some reason, you think you are somehow special. You also don't want to have to obey all the rules .So the club reimburses you some of you annual fee;

But they still allow you to enjoy all the benefits of being in the club. And you still have a say in the running of the club.

Then one day you get all angry, stamp your feet, complain that you are paying too much ( despite a rebate) and leave and flounce off.

But you still want the advantages of being in the club.

But suddenly, those advantages you had are not available; the discounts that you had by being a member have one, and you have to try to negotiate them yourself.

And you can't play all those great sports you used to play against other clubs ; because you need to be part of a team to play them.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

I am still undecided

Which is why I'm aiming to talk about the issues in an unbiased fashion

You seem to already be running into the problem that to some what you write is only unbiased if confirms what they already believe.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

So about £2 per week per person. I'm return for which we get to trade tariff free with some of the riches countries in the world.

I am a simple person so I'll put this simply. Just for the money I see it like this.

I get a job with a company and they say they will pay my £500 a week.

But to get this £500 I have to give them £200 pounds a week for the privilege of working for them.

With my so far

But being a nice company they will give me £100 back a week if they feel like it.

Does that make good sense to you.

Sounds like the EU to me we give them £350M and if we are good we get some back, but they have the say on how much.

Look at it this way;

You join a social club, for which there is an annual fee.

But you dont want to pay full fees, because for some reason, you think you are somehow special. You also don't want to have to obey all the rules .So the club reimburses you some of you annual fee;

But they still allow you to enjoy all the benefits of being in the club. And you still have a say in the running of the club.

Then one day you get all angry, stamp your feet, complain that you are paying too much ( despite a rebate) and leave and flounce off.

But you still want the advantages of being in the club.

But suddenly, those advantages you had are not available; the discounts that you had by being a member have one, and you have to try to negotiate them yourself.

And you can't play all those great sports you used to play against other clubs ; because you need to be part of a team to play them.

but you'll still be welcome in the club because you buy the most beer from the bar

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

So about £2 per week per person. I'm return for which we get to trade tariff free with some of the riches countries in the world.

Also some of the poorest,Greece,Spain,Portugal need i go on"

Greece, Spain and Portugal are only relatively poor by European standards. By world standards they still remain in the rich list. So yes, if you want to give honest information, you should have gone on a mentioned that to.

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By *omersetfun15Couple over a year ago

bridgwater

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

So about £2 per week per person. I'm return for which we get to trade tariff free with some of the riches countries in the world.

I am a simple person so I'll put this simply. Just for the money I see it like this.

I get a job with a company and they say they will pay my £500 a week.

But to get this £500 I have to give them £200 pounds a week for the privilege of working for them.

With my so far

But being a nice company they will give me £100 back a week if they feel like it.

Does that make good sense to you.

Sounds like the EU to me we give them £350M and if we are good we get some back, but they have the say on how much.

Look at it this way;

You join a social club, for which there is an annual fee.

But you dont want to pay full fees, because for some reason, you think you are somehow special. You also don't want to have to obey all the rules .So the club reimburses you some of you annual fee;

But they still allow you to enjoy all the benefits of being in the club. And you still have a say in the running of the club.

Then one day you get all angry, stamp your feet, complain that you are paying too much ( despite a rebate) and leave and flounce off.

But you still want the advantages of being in the club.

But suddenly, those advantages you had are not available; the discounts that you had by being a member have one, and you have to try to negotiate them yourself.

And you can't play all those great sports you used to play against other clubs ; because you need to be part of a team to play them.

If you like a lot of chocolate on your biscuit join our club !

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

So about £2 per week per person. I'm return for which we get to trade tariff free with some of the riches countries in the world.

I am a simple person so I'll put this simply. Just for the money I see it like this.

I get a job with a company and they say they will pay my £500 a week.

But to get this £500 I have to give them £200 pounds a week for the privilege of working for them.

With my so far

But being a nice company they will give me £100 back a week if they feel like it.

Does that make good sense to you.

Sounds like the EU to me we give them £350M and if we are good we get some back, but they have the say on how much.

Look at it this way;

You join a social club, for which there is an annual fee.

But you dont want to pay full fees, because for some reason, you think you are somehow special. You also don't want to have to obey all the rules .So the club reimburses you some of you annual fee;

But they still allow you to enjoy all the benefits of being in the club. And you still have a say in the running of the club.

Then one day you get all angry, stamp your feet, complain that you are paying too much ( despite a rebate) and leave and flounce off.

But you still want the advantages of being in the club.

But suddenly, those advantages you had are not available; the discounts that you had by being a member have one, and you have to try to negotiate them yourself.

And you can't play all those great sports you used to play against other clubs ; because you need to be part of a team to play them.

but you'll still be welcome in the club because you buy the most beer from the bar

So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

we can answer some of the questions...

the mythical "350 million per week" figure comes from the nation that they uk's contribution should have been 17.8 billion pound...

however.....

the uk doesn't pay that because written into that is the rebate... which we get back 4.9 billion before we start....

so the cost was closer to 12.9billion

however.......

so the true cost is somewhere around 7 billion pounds.... or about 140 million a week.....

Well that's ok then I was worried it maybe a lot of money but 140 mil a week is fine

So about £2 per week per person. I'm return for which we get to trade tariff free with some of the riches countries in the world.

I am a simple person so I'll put this simply. Just for the money I see it like this.

I get a job with a company and they say they will pay my £500 a week.

But to get this £500 I have to give them £200 pounds a week for the privilege of working for them.

With my so far

But being a nice company they will give me £100 back a week if they feel like it.

Does that make good sense to you.

Sounds like the EU to me we give them £350M and if we are good we get some back, but they have the say on how much.

Look at it this way;

You join a social club, for which there is an annual fee.

But you dont want to pay full fees, because for some reason, you think you are somehow special. You also don't want to have to obey all the rules .So the club reimburses you some of you annual fee;

But they still allow you to enjoy all the benefits of being in the club. And you still have a say in the running of the club.

Then one day you get all angry, stamp your feet, complain that you are paying too much ( despite a rebate) and leave and flounce off.

But you still want the advantages of being in the club.

But suddenly, those advantages you had are not available; the discounts that you had by being a member have one, and you have to try to negotiate them yourself.

And you can't play all those great sports you used to play against other clubs ; because you need to be part of a team to play them.

If you like a lot of chocolate on your biscuit join our club !"

that's one hell of a lot of reading, has anyone read it all????

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Great deal, if anyone wants to give me there wages and ill give you half back im vouchers feel free im generous like that

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By *reyyaMan over a year ago

North Yorkshire

The sooner we get out of the EU the sooner we don't have to read any more rubbish as above...

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

Is the rebate set in stone?

Can it NEVER be removed?

Or can the EU remove this rebate? that is the question can the EU remove this rebate

an impartial answer....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36085281

basically enough it is not set in stone the EU cannot remove it unless the UK gave up its power of veto over it......

an impartial answer...from the BBC???..the left leaning BBC!

Is everyone who does not agree with what you say biased? The fact is is that the rebate cannot be removed without the British governments agreement.

BREXITers:

See no truth, hear no truth and speak no truth. There whole campaign is based on lies and then smearing anyone or organisation that questions what they say. BREXIT has consistently lied about the amount we pay the EU, consistently lied about the real level of EU migration into Britain, consistently lied about Turkey joining the EU. Consistently lied about Britain not being able to trade with the rest of the world while in the EU. Now they are lying about the British rebate and veto. Do they really not know the facts or are they so desperate to win the argument that the truth no longer matters to them?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half.

That's why I said about

Most sites, including the BBC, say after taking out all the rebates and funding given to the UK it still cost us £161M a week to say in.

This is on 2014/15 fingers.

Are they right well I do tend to believe the BBC."

I would be inclined to agree that on a straight payed-in-got-out in money the figure is about £150 million a week. The question is why did BREXIT try to con the British people and say we could save £350 million a week which we could spend on the NHS? At best that's total economic incompetents or quite simply an out-and-out lie.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"My problem is I'm not sure which way to vote. I have read tons and tons about it, but the two sides are completely contradicting eachothers figures and statements. I watched the question time thing last night and someone mentioned that they swap the definition of billions (either 100 million or 1 million million) depending on their aguement. So now I have no clue what to believe. I need someone like Australia to make a leaflet with the actual unbiased facts on them (how much does it cost, what would we save, how being in the eu affects business and what would change etc) so I think I'm voting remain because I don't know enough to decide I need change "

I can clarify one point for you at least.

1 billion is 1,000 million.

It used to be the case that in the UK 1 billion meant a million million (1,000,000 million) but now we all use the US system and 1 billion is a thousand million.

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By *verysmileMan over a year ago

Canterbury

In public finance issues, a billion is 1000 million.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"So. Two very basic questions:-

1/ how much would we save if we left the EU?

2/ what would it cost us if we did?

The answer to question 1 is: Financially NOTHING!

The answer to question 2 is: Financially NOTHING!

BOTH are LYING!

There will be short term economic consequences no matter which way we vote due to financial market manipulation by speculators looking to make a quick killing.

The figures you quote are per week, not per day. Just saying, I've accidently made the same mistake myself more than once.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half.

That's why I said about

Most sites, including the BBC, say after taking out all the rebates and funding given to the UK it still cost us £161M a week to say in.

This is on 2014/15 fingers.

Are they right well I do tend to believe the BBC.

Both sides have lied, you just have to try and work out which bits come close to the truth

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

It is spent on the poorer areas of the EU. Helping improve their countries, raise their living standards (so they don't have to come here for jobs) and increase the market for our goods.

Much the same as West Germany did for East Germany. It costs in the short-term, but in the long-term the benefits are enormous.

I wish the benefits were like my cock then. "

You mean you give out more than you take back? That's good to know.

LOL

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"FACT IS; NOBODY KNOWS EITHER WAY

not even you Joe

Correct - I can only provide unbiased information

How can anyone accurately forecast what will happen in 2030?

Does anyone care probably not"

Gideon has made 20 economic forecasts so far.....these predicted either 6 or 12 months ahead. 19 of them were wrong.....so now he tries to predict 15 yrs ahead.

The only truth in any of these figures is that there is no truth!

The treasury and other "forecasts" are all based on worse case scenario....that we will have NO trade deal with the EU. Bred it assumes we keep basically the same free trade agreement......neither of these is even remotely likely!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

*brexit sorry!

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

" The AMP in Sheffield/Rotherham has been an outstanding success, bringing firms like Boeing, Rolls Royce and other major engineering players to the city. All made possible by the EU, hundreds of millions have gone, thousands of jobs created and including building thousands of new homes on the adjacent land too. Again all thanks to EU money not included in all the figures. "

And all the tax receipts that come in to the TReasury as a result...

A person further up the thread highlighted the ignorance of many Brexit supporters. The EU contributions and rebates/funding issues are not a single dimension argument. Our economy is working at least to some degree BECAUSE of our EU membership and single market access. The Treasury get far, far more tax receipts than any EU Membership cost and hence the "savings" argument is a complete fallacy. The smallest drop in GDP on EXIT which even leading Brexit supporters concede will happen - will completely wipe out any so called savings because of the loss of tax receipts.

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By *verysmileMan over a year ago

Canterbury

The fact is that we are a net contributor by several billion per year. The lowest figure is around £5 billion and this rises by at least threefold depending on who you listen to.

Is the cost worth it?

I don't think many will argue that the EU is a perfect beast but can we get the reforms which we want?

I am afraid that our decisions on this will only be influenced by flawed argument and half truths. Therefore it comes down to gut feeling.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"The first question is more straightforwards.

The leave campaign is very clear on this – the cost of EU membership is £350m per week. And if we left, that is money we can spend as we wished.

But is this number correct?

No - the claim is false. If we left the EU, we wouldn’t have an extra £350m a week extra to spend on the NHS.

So how much *could* we save?

In 2014, the UK gave £280m a week to the EU and received back £90m a week for famers and poorer regions, plus another £50m per week on UK companies.

But if the UK continues to pay some fees, like Norway and Switzerland, the saving would be lower than that.

So whatever the number is, it’s not £350m a week.

Incorrect, the £350 million (actually £368,000,000) is the difference between what we pay out and what we get back"

No it's not. We pay about £250 million a week and get back about £100 million a week. The £350 million a week is what we would pay if we did not get a rebate of about £100 million a week. That's the facts.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"If I was an insurance provider for the UK economy, I'd not have absolute certainty but I would vastly increase the premiums for brexit, based on available figures.

But are the figures real?

Well no one on the BREXIT side has produced either credible figures to counter them or credible reasons why they should not be believed.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"FACT IS; NOBODY KNOWS EITHER WAY

not even you Joe

In which case it goes both ways - the poster can't say he knows with surety either.

I'm merely examining the claims and providing facts.

That's all.

who's facts!!!!!!

don't believe all you read and hear, many have alternative motives"

Like saying we can save £350 million a week when we only actually pay £150 million a week?

Or saying EU migration is 180,000 a year that BREXIT will stop but not saying that that figure includes UK nationals returning from living abroad (maybe up to 50%) and migrants from the Irish republic that will still be allowed to come to the UK whether we're in the EU or not (another 25%), which puts real migration from the EU at about 45,000. Or saying that Turkey is joining the EU when everyone who knows anything about Turkey knows it has no chance of joining either soon or in the lifetime of any on this site, if ever.

I wonder if those lies were said to inform the British people or if there maybe alternative, ulterior motives.

You're right, we shouldn't believe everything we read and hear, especially if it comes from the BREXIT lie machine.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

Sarah

Whilst I would agree that the Euro has not helped Spain with it's troubles I also think that they, like many British people, would do far better looking closer to home to find the cause of their problems and not scapegoat the EU for their (and ours) own governments historical mismanagement of the respective economies.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Well no one on the BREXIT side has produced either credible figures to counter them or credible reasons why they should not be believed."

Actually BREXIT figures are 'correct' and actually an underestimate of the extra benefit to government finances in so far as they go.

Here is how it will work if we leave the EU.

On leaving our contribution to the EU (£350 million a week or what ever) will no longer be paid by the government to Brussels.

Brussels will impose import tariffs on UK goods that will equal or exceed the lost revenue paid by the British government. The UK will impose import duties on EU goods entering this country that are proportionate to EU tariffs. Thus in macro economic terms there will be no change to the balance of payments between EU and UK.

However the government will have transferred the burden of paying the EU contribution from the public coffers to those doing business in the EU freeing up the £350 million a week they claim.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"In public finance issues, a billion is 1000 million. "

Yes

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By *iamondjoe OP Man over a year ago

Glastonbury

The figures are all here, all you have to do is read

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I just look at the figures telling me to "Leave"..Boris, Gove , and IDS.... well that seals it for me a bigger bunch of rogues it would be harder to find.. I am for remain.....not perfect by any means but not the total leap of faith these millionaires expect me to take

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sarah

So it's all the fault of the individual countries governments? Oh dear

So, you think power should be taken away from each country and placed into the hands of the knobs who run the EU because they know best? It's laughable.

So ok, what have the EU done or are doing to help things?

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"One fact - we give billions a year to Brussels.

Can the Remain side give one 'FACT' economy wise?

Yes, we get billions a year from Brussels.

Only about half what we put in thou

£100 mil in rebate. £60 million a week in farmers subsidies, over £50 mil a week in student subsidies, that's all I know of but that's more than half.

That's why I said about

Most sites, including the BBC, say after taking out all the rebates and funding given to the UK it still cost us £161M a week to say in.

This is on 2014/15 fingers.

Are they right well I do tend to believe the BBC.

Both sides have lied, you just have to try and work out which bits come close to the truth

I'd disagree. BREMAIN has produced forecasts, many backed up by reputable organisation, that some have called misleading. But they are forecasts, predictions of what, given the evidence, they believe is likely to happen. You may agree or disagree with them. Forecasts are either credible in incredulous.

On the other hand BREXIT has lied. On the front of its leaflet (I have it in front of me) it says 'We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead'. We don't send the EU £350 million a week we send about £250 million a week and get back another £100 million a week. That leaves about £150 million a week not £350 million a week.

Inside they say 'over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK from the EU every year'. That's not true. About 180,000 is the official figure for net migration from the EU. But this figure also includes UK nationals returning from living and working abroad, up to half; it also includes Irish citizens who would still be allowed to live and work in the UK whether we were in the EU or not, another 25%. That's 75% of EU migration that leaving the EU would not change, putting the real figure at closer to the historic level of about 45,000 per year.

You show me such blatantly clear cases of out-and-out lies from BREMAIN.

It's all very well saying there all as bad as each other but the reality is one side is telling you what it thinks while the other is telling you things it knows are misleading lies.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

Sarah

So it's all the fault of the individual countries governments? Oh dear

So, you think power should be taken away from each country and placed into the hands of the knobs who run the EU because they know best? It's laughable.

So ok, what have the EU done or are doing to help things?"

As I never said that I thought power should be taken away from countries and placed in the hands of the EU, whether they be knobs or not, I don't see why I should have to comment about it.

What I will say is that Spain is in the mess it's in because, like other countries both inside and outside EU, it over spent and under taxed, which caused it to run up debts. Being in the Euro has not helped the situation for Spain, I agree, but it would have still had problems because of its debt whether in the Euro, in the EU or out of both. It was the Spanish sovereign government that caused Spain's debt not the EU and it was the Spanish sovereign government that choose to adopt the Euro.

Sovereignty is about a nation taking responsibility for its actions and their outcomes, not blaming the nearest scapegoat. BREXIT talk a lot about sovereignty but, when it comes down to it, they don't even know what it really is.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sarah

So it's all the fault of the individual countries governments? Oh dear

So, you think power should be taken away from each country and placed into the hands of the knobs who run the EU because they know best? It's laughable.

So ok, what have the EU done or are doing to help things?

As I never said that I thought power should be taken away from countries and placed in the hands of the EU, whether they be knobs or not, I don't see why I should have to comment about it.

so what about Italy, Portugal, Ireland, France, Cyprus, Greece?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's the connection?

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

Sarah

So it's all the fault of the individual countries governments? Oh dear

So, you think power should be taken away from each country and placed into the hands of the knobs who run the EU because they know best? It's laughable.

So ok, what have the EU done or are doing to help things?

As I never said that I thought power should be taken away from countries and placed in the hands of the EU, whether they be knobs or not, I don't see why I should have to comment about it.

so what about Italy, Portugal, Ireland, France, Cyprus, Greece?"

If you think that France has given up any sovereignty then you have no idea.

Nor the Germans, or the Spanish, , or the etc etc.

If you actually live in Europe ( not on an island on the side of it) you will see it on a daily basis.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What is further political union, which is what the EU wants, if it is not taking more power from individual countries?

The Euro was a disaster. So what do the EU want to do? If it wasn't so crazy and sad it would be laughable

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"What's the connection?"

Two pin round were European not three pin square .....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sarah

So it's all the fault of the individual countries governments? Oh dear

So, you think power should be taken away from each country and placed into the hands of the knobs who run the EU because they know best? It's laughable.

So ok, what have the EU done or are doing to help things?

As I never said that I thought power should be taken away from countries and placed in the hands of the EU, whether they be knobs or not, I don't see why I should have to comment about it.

so what about Italy, Portugal, Ireland, France, Cyprus, Greece?

If you think that France has given up any sovereignty then you have no idea.

Nor the Germans, or the Spanish, , or the etc etc.

If you actually live in Europe ( not on an island on the side of it) you will see it on a daily basis.

I'm sorry, you have no idea and I thought you were talking economics seeing as you wouldn't answer the question on giving more power to Brussels

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By *arry247Couple over a year ago

Wakefield

"FACT IS; NOBODY KNOWS EITHER WAY

not even you Joe

Correct - I can only provide unbiased information"

Except you didn't provide unbiased information.

in the first example the £350 is money that we could spend on what we consider to be priorities.

The money the EU gives us back in the form of subsidies comes with terms attached it is not money we can spend how we like

If we left we could decide where the money was spent so the claim is correct.

As for the claim that if we left we would be worse off, that is not correct either, all the forecasts state the UK economy will grow but some claim the growth will be less if we exit.

The remain forecast does not take into account UK sales to the EU have been falling for the last 20 years.

The problems in the EU and the Eurozone are holding the UK back though it must be stated in spite of extra payments to the EU the UK has still managed to grow its economy.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Is this referendum really about money and finances? As we have seen in Birstall with the tragic events that culminated in the murder of an innocent woman by a man who seemingly has links to extremist organisations and the idiots attending football matches in France its about Europeans being one and having common aims and objectives.

Its imperative that the moderate thinking majority win this debate and the UK remains in the European Union so that the rise of political and religious zealots are confronted at every opportunity so that the moderate majority can live in a safe, civilised and democratic society.

Brexit is not the answer moreover its the nemesis that those with extreme view wish to see so they can divide and conquer the moderate majority. So what is it costs £350m a week to be part of a club that specifically forbids the taking up of arms against another member its a small price to pay to maintain peace and security for Europe as a whole which in the last 300 years has seen more bloodshed than any other part of the globe.

To the Brexiters just be very careful what you wish for because the days of the Empire are long gone, thankfully.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Is this referendum really about money and finances? As we have seen in Birstall with the tragic events that culminated in the murder of an innocent woman by a man who seemingly has links to extremist organisations and the idiots attending football matches in France its about Europeans being one and having common aims and objectives.

To the Brexiters just be very careful what you wish for because the days of the Empire are long gone, thankfully."

that is the funniest post I have read yet. Can you not see or realise that it is the policies and failings of the EU that is creating extremism throughout Europe? When people feel they do not have a voice or that their governments are being dictated to or threatened they will rebel.

There is nothing 'moderate' about the expansionist aims of the EU

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To the Brexiters just be very careful what you wish for because the days of the Empire are long gone, thankfully.

There is nothing 'moderate' about the expansionist aims of the EU"
Point to one extreme government in the EU left or right.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To the Brexiters just be very careful what you wish for because the days of the Empire are long gone, thankfully.

There is nothing 'moderate' about the expansionist aims of the EUPoint to one extreme government in the EU left or right."

lol

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

Sorry but sick of hearing about this subject so !!!!!

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To the Brexiters just be very careful what you wish for because the days of the Empire are long gone, thankfully.

There is nothing 'moderate' about the expansionist aims of the EU"

There is something very worrying about the rise of extremist right wing groups across the EU nations. Tensions are higher now than I can remember. Speak to a Greek taxi driver and he blames the Germans for their woes. Speak to a German office worker and they blame the lazy southern European nations for their national debt. Speak to the French and a significant majority are fed up with the EU in general. I feel more concerned for Europe then I have in many years and am trying to work out if the EU as currently constructed is the problem or the solution. As we can see from this thread the debate ha managed to clarify one thing, that the future whether in or out is as clear as mud. Still undecided and still thinking.

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I will go further and say that an organisation that promotes workers and human rights is the pinnacle of moderation and civilisation. I really cannot be doing with this we are all right on our own bollocks. If we are talking economics walking away from the largest trading block in the world seems far funnier somehow?

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Sorry but sick of hearing about this subject so !!!!! "
Then switch off and tune out!

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

"Sorry but sick of hearing about this subject so !!!!! Then switch off and tune out!"

Nahh , this is more fun

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The polite way of saying this is if you don't like a topic, whatever it is then don't read it. The impolite way....

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To the Brexiters just be very careful what you wish for because the days of the Empire are long gone, thankfully.

There is nothing 'moderate' about the expansionist aims of the EU

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Sorry but sick of hearing about this subject so !!!!! Then switch off and tune out!

Nahh , this is more fun"
Then you are clearly not sick of the subject?

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To the Brexiters just be very careful what you wish for because the days of the Empire are long gone, thankfully.

There is nothing 'moderate' about the expansionist aims of the EU

I hope you are right, I fear a Brexit may have much wider implications for the whole of Europe than just the economic ones affecting the UK discussed here.

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"
Can I ask if you are for staying in the EU or leaving?

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

Can I ask if you are for staying in the EU or leaving?"

You can ask

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To the Brexiters just be very careful what you wish for because the days of the Empire are long gone, thankfully.

There is nothing 'moderate' about the expansionist aims of the EU

I hope you are right, I fear a Brexit may have much wider implications for the whole of Europe than just the economic ones affecting the UK discussed here. "
I have that fear to. But if Boris and Nigel are for it then it must be suspect!

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

To the Brexiters just be very careful what you wish for because the days of the Empire are long gone, thankfully.

There is nothing 'moderate' about the expansionist aims of the EU"

Immoderate expansion is on another plane to extreme hatred and violence.

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