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Question for Brexiters
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"If we vote to leave the EU, would you like to see passport checks on the Northern Ireland/Eire border? Or should Irish nationals be allowed free movement? " is this thread from todays news of the appearance of Blair & Major Major and Blair make joint EU appeal in Northern Ireland  | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen" lol sorry couldn't help a little laugh  | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen" I didn't think there were checks between NI/Eire, but am happy to be corrected. | |||
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"Simple question....simple answer....yes." It's a YES from us too. | |||
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"If we vote to leave the EU, would you like to see passport checks on the Northern Ireland/Eire border? Or should Irish nationals be allowed free movement? " Well they have had free movement for the last 100 years or so far longer than both the UK & Ireland have been in the EU why should that change when we leave | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen I didn't think there were checks between NI/Eire, but am happy to be corrected. " You are right... There are not The U.K. And Ireland have there own free travel area within the Schengen Agreement so people can travel without a passport between them But obviously if you are looking at keeping eu people out, you would think border controls would come back... Which would be a shame | |||
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"Bloody predictive text! Third time lucky! Yeah! What we need to do now is to add hibernophobia into the mix! Sigh! " Is that the fear of hibernation? | |||
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"Bloody predictive text! Third time lucky! Yeah! What we need to do now is to add hibernophobia into the mix! Sigh! Is that the fear of hibernation? " | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen I didn't think there were checks between NI/Eire, but am happy to be corrected. You are right... There are not The U.K. And Ireland have there own free travel area within the Schengen Agreement so people can travel without a passport between them But obviously if you are looking at keeping eu people out, you would think border controls would come back... Which would be a shame " It would not be a shame. This is OUR country and WE should control exactly WHO comes in. | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen I didn't think there were checks between NI/Eire, but am happy to be corrected. You are right... There are not The U.K. And Ireland have there own free travel area within the Schengen Agreement so people can travel without a passport between them But obviously if you are looking at keeping eu people out, you would think border controls would come back... Which would be a shame It would not be a shame. This is OUR country and WE should control exactly WHO comes in." The use of capitals for emphasis should be blocked at the BORDER. | |||
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"If we vote to leave the EU, would you like to see passport checks on the Northern Ireland/Eire border? Or should Irish nationals be allowed free movement? is this thread from todays news of the appearance of Blair & Major Major and Blair make joint EU appeal in Northern Ireland "Always have to laugh when the toxic Tony Blair gets involved and telling us all we should stay in the EU.
In other news The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Theresa Villiers and The DUP party in Northern Ireland have been making the case for Brexit saying why we should leave the EU to counter Blair and Major.
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen I didn't think there were checks between NI/Eire, but am happy to be corrected. You are right... There are not The U.K. And Ireland have there own free travel area within the Schengen Agreement so people can travel without a passport between them But obviously if you are looking at keeping eu people out, you would think border controls would come back... Which would be a shame It would not be a shame. This is OUR country and WE should control exactly WHO comes in. The use of capitals for emphasis should be blocked at the BORDER." You mean don't let capitals in? RIGHT..... | |||
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" Always have to laugh when the toxic Tony Blair gets involved and telling us all we should stay in the EU.
In other news The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Theresa Villiers and The DUP party in Northern Ireland have been making the case for Brexit saying why we should leave the EU to counter Blair and Major.
"If you want to lose a vote get Blair in. Even die hard socialists who hate Cameron with a passion hate Blair more. | |||
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" Always have to laugh when the toxic Tony Blair gets involved and telling us all we should stay in the EU.
In other news The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Theresa Villiers and The DUP party in Northern Ireland have been making the case for Brexit saying why we should leave the EU to counter Blair and Major.
If you want to lose a vote get Blair in. Even die hard socialists who hate Cameron with a passion hate Blair more. "Interesting! We're die hard Tories and we hate them both too. | |||
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" Always have to laugh when the toxic Tony Blair gets involved and telling us all we should stay in the EU.
In other news The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Theresa Villiers and The DUP party in Northern Ireland have been making the case for Brexit saying why we should leave the EU to counter Blair and Major.
If you want to lose a vote get Blair in. Even die hard socialists who hate Cameron with a passion hate Blair more. "It must be killing Jeremy Corbyn to be on the same side as Blair and Cameron. Plus we all know Corbyn is a Eurosceptic at heart from the same line as Tony Benn and Micheal Foot. I wouldn't rule out Corbyn switching sides before June 23rd.  | |||
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" If you want to lose a vote get Blair in. Even die hard socialists who hate Cameron with a passion hate Blair more. " Are we talking about the same Tony Blair who won three General Elections? | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen" We don't currently have border controls between the UK and the republic. In fact we have never had immigration controls between the UK and the Republic ever. How's that going to work if EU citizens are free to travel to the Republic but not free to travel to the UK? | |||
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" If you want to lose a vote get Blair in. Even die hard socialists who hate Cameron with a passion hate Blair more. Are we talking about the same Tony Blair who won three General Elections? " Yes, but we know him for what he really is now. We didn't then. | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen I didn't think there were checks between NI/Eire, but am happy to be corrected. " There has been in the past border controls for security and customs but their has never been immigration controls between the UK and Eire. | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen We don't currently have border controls between the UK and the republic. In fact we have never had immigration controls between the UK and the Republic ever. How's that going to work if EU citizens are free to travel to the Republic but not free to travel to the UK?" If the UK democratically votes to leave the EU then the borders must go up at ALL points of entry. We cannot control the flow of migrants into the UK if they're free to travel to Eire and pass unchecked into the UK. | |||
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" Always have to laugh when the toxic Tony Blair gets involved and telling us all we should stay in the EU.
In other news The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Theresa Villiers and The DUP party in Northern Ireland have been making the case for Brexit saying why we should leave the EU to counter Blair and Major.
If you want to lose a vote get Blair in. Even die hard socialists who hate Cameron with a passion hate Blair more.
It must be killing Jeremy Corbyn to be on the same side as Blair and Cameron. Plus we all know Corbyn is a Eurosceptic at heart from the same line as Tony Benn and Micheal Foot. I wouldn't rule out Corbyn switching sides before June 23rd. "In some ways I would have liked Jezza to back the leave campaign, just to even out the nasty nationalistic tone a little as well as leaving less of a dent in his own profile in terms of being convoction-led. But at least he isn't going back on everything he in just for his own ego, like Bojo. | |||
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"If we vote to leave the EU, would you like to see passport checks on the Northern Ireland/Eire border? Or should Irish nationals be allowed free movement? Well they have had free movement for the last 100 years or so far longer than both the UK & Ireland have been in the EU why should that change when we leave" Because, in the past, Eire had similar immigration controls with Europe as the UK had. That won't be the case if the UK leaves the EU. | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen We don't currently have border controls between the UK and the republic. In fact we have never had immigration controls between the UK and the Republic ever. How's that going to work if EU citizens are free to travel to the Republic but not free to travel to the UK? If the UK democratically votes to leave the EU then the borders must go up at ALL points of entry. We cannot control the flow of migrants into the UK if they're free to travel to Eire and pass unchecked into the UK." which is a shame... because ireland is the one place where people can go without the need for a passport... for those who just could up an go.... you'd take that away from people.... | |||
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"If we vote to leave the EU, would you like to see passport checks on the Northern Ireland/Eire border? Or should Irish nationals be allowed free movement? Well they have had free movement for the last 100 years or so far longer than both the UK & Ireland have been in the EU why should that change when we leave Because, in the past, Eire had similar immigration controls with Europe as the UK had. That won't be the case if the UK leaves the EU." i think it would be ironic that the reason ireland didn't sign up to schengen is because they so valued the passport free agreement with the uk... only for some people in the UK to now tell them to "stfu" | |||
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"Although the Tories are currently a fucking shambles and Cameron a dead duck I have far more respect for people who at least argue their point with a passion. Where the fuck is Corbin and virtually all of the labour shadow cabinet? Spineless, opinionless cowards scared to get behind their own convictions in the vain hope that they can duck the shit storm and some how come out smelling like roses. Not what I want to see from a bunch of people who would like to be the leaders of our country. " the shadow cabinet i have no problem with.... there have been enough speeches from a lot of them.... I have an issue with Corbyn... he could and should be more visable. | |||
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"Although the Tories are currently a fucking shambles and Cameron a dead duck I have far more respect for people who at least argue their point with a passion. Where the fuck is Corbin and virtually all of the labour shadow cabinet? Spineless, opinionless cowards scared to get behind their own convictions in the vain hope that they can duck the shit storm and some how come out smelling like roses. Not what I want to see from a bunch of people who would like to be the leaders of our country. " I thought it was disgusting that Corbyn wouldn't share a podium with Cameron and the leaders of greens and lib dems. You might not agree with Cameron's politics, but if you want PM, you should be man enough to stand next to the PM when you agree with him. | |||
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"If corbyn is still leading labour in 2020 they can kiss goodbye to winning that election. He's unelectable. " If the parliamentary labour party dont even like him, there is no chance that the majority of the country will want him as PM | |||
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"Just to note.. Being out does not mean immigration will stop. It just means terror suspects/convicts can be kicked out, people with specific skills that employers want can come in. I am an outer btw" What about all the non-British EU citizens who are already here and working here, do employers want to kick them out and then get other immigrants in instead? | |||
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"Just to note.. Being out does not mean immigration will stop. It just means terror suspects/convicts can be kicked out, people with specific skills that employers want can come in. I am an outer btw" interesting that we talk about terror suspects... because the large attack on uk soil was committed by home grown terrorists on 7/7... which this would not have stopped... and all the other major terror attack were committed by the IRA, and the leave side want to keep the UK/ireland deal in place.... so it would not have stopped them.... | |||
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"Just to note.. Being out does not mean immigration will stop. It just means terror suspects/convicts can be kicked out, people with specific skills that employers want can come in. I am an outer btw interesting that we talk about terror suspects... because the large attack on uk soil was committed by home grown terrorists on 7/7... which this would not have stopped... and all the other major terror attack were committed by the IRA, and the leave side want to keep the UK/ireland deal in place.... so it would not have stopped them...." Also I would prefer terror suspects are monitored, evidence gathered and then tried and convicted, rather than simply deporting them so they can continue their plans out of the sight of MI5 and counter terrorism police. | |||
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"they had border checks in the bad old days of the trouble and yes, it would be a shame if they had to come back because of the views of people of whom it would never effect... the run down from belfast to dublin is seemless on the train,.. just jump on board..... it would be a bit like people wanting border controls in carlisle and berwick if scotland were to ever vote for independence..." No Fabio, there have never border checks between the North and South. There have been police/military VCP's (both mobile and permanent) set up either side of the border to control movement of weapons both ways, but they were never border controls (I know the difference is subtle but it is there). In fact it was a part of the Anglo Irish Treaty (also know as The Ports Treaty or Treaty of Cork) that the border should be open and that UK Naval forces should supply coastal defence to Ireland. This has been very profitable for both countries, Trinity House run and maintain Irish lighthouses and the RNLI provide lifeboats. Also during WW2 allowed RAF Coastal Command to take shortcuts over Irish airspace to patrol the Western Approaches and for the Navy to lay Winston's 'Welcome Mat' between Crookhaven and Lands End. | |||
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"Whether it's a good or bad thing the reality is is that if Eire continues to have free movement of people with the EU and the UK does not then it's almost inevitable that immigration controls between the UK and Eire would have to be introduced. Is that enough off a reason to vote leave or remain? Probably not, but it is another thing to take into consideration." 
The Irish want the UK to remain in the EU. There has been an open border between Ireland and the UK since 1922 when the Irish Free State was established. This remained the case when both countries joined the EEC in 1973. Ireland has always acted to enforce UK international entry rules during this period because of the open border.
If the Brexiters think the land border with Northern Ireland can be controlled -dream on. At the height of the Troubles there where 20 thousand troops and police on that border and it was still porous , it took a political settlement to get peace.
If the UK leaves the EU you will see passports at the Irish border for the first time ever AND eventually UK I.D. cards to cover the fact that it will remain impossible to effectively control illegal entry. So vote leave and go one more step towards the complete surveillance state,  | |||
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"Just to note.. Being out does not mean immigration will stop. It just means terror suspects/convicts can be kicked out, people with specific skills that employers want can come in. I am an outer btw interesting that we talk about terror suspects... because the large attack on uk soil was committed by home grown terrorists on 7/7... which this would not have stopped... and all the other major terror attack were committed by the IRA, and the leave side want to keep the UK/ireland deal in place.... so it would not have stopped them...." true being home grown. The example was abu hamza bloke .. Though his family complicated matters.. plus a few other foreign born plus other future undesirables.. | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen I didn't think there were checks between NI/Eire, but am happy to be corrected. You are right... There are not The U.K. And Ireland have there own free travel area within the Schengen Agreement so people can travel without a passport between them But obviously if you are looking at keeping eu people out, you would think border controls would come back... Which would be a shame It would not be a shame. This is OUR country and WE should control exactly WHO comes in." and who we boot out | |||
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"Just to note.. Being out does not mean immigration will stop. It just means terror suspects/convicts can be kicked out, people with specific skills that employers want can come in. I am an outer btw interesting that we talk about terror suspects... because the large attack on uk soil was committed by home grown terrorists on 7/7... which this would not have stopped... and all the other major terror attack were committed by the IRA, and the leave side want to keep the UK/ireland deal in place.... so it would not have stopped them.... true being home grown. The example was abu hamza bloke .. Though his family complicated matters.. plus a few other foreign born plus other future undesirables.. " 1) hamza came in from egypt..... 2) the reason why hamza originally won his stay was the charge the US wanted him for carried a chance of the death penalty.. and that he would be treated inhumanly (sent to guantamano) they were rules under the ECHR.... which has nothing to do with the EU... and actually predates the EU by about 20 odd years..... once the us dropped the death penalty bit... and he would | |||
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"Just to note.. Being out does not mean immigration will stop. It just means terror suspects/convicts can be kicked out, people with specific skills that employers want can come in. I am an outer btw What about all the non-British EU citizens who are already here and working here, do employers want to kick them out and then get other immigrants in instead? " no i can't see retrospective assessments like that. | |||
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"Just to note.. Being out does not mean immigration will stop. It just means terror suspects/convicts can be kicked out, people with specific skills that employers want can come in. I am an outer btw interesting that we talk about terror suspects... because the large attack on uk soil was committed by home grown terrorists on 7/7... which this would not have stopped... and all the other major terror attack were committed by the IRA, and the leave side want to keep the UK/ireland deal in place.... so it would not have stopped them.... Also I would prefer terror suspects are monitored, evidence gathered and then tried and convicted, rather than simply deporting them so they can continue their plans out of the sight of MI5 and counter terrorism police. " yes if there was sound evidence.. But, if there is not enough evidence, or they have previous serious convictions e.g drugs, robbery, violence then don't let them in. | |||
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"Just to note.. Being out does not mean immigration will stop. It just means terror suspects/convicts can be kicked out, people with specific skills that employers want can come in. I am an outer btw What about all the non-British EU citizens who are already here and working here, do employers want to kick them out and then get other immigrants in instead? no i can't see retrospective assessments like that. " So do are people on the BREXIT side happy for all the immigrants who are currently here to stay? | |||
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"Just to note.. Being out does not mean immigration will stop. It just means terror suspects/convicts can be kicked out, people with specific skills that employers want can come in. I am an outer btw What about all the non-British EU citizens who are already here and working here, do employers want to kick them out and then get other immigrants in instead? no i can't see retrospective assessments like that. So do are people on the BREXIT side happy for all the immigrants who are currently here to stay? " Of course. It's not about forcibly removing foreigners but controlling who comes here in the future. Workers yes, economic migrants no. | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. " Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. | |||
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"No need. We have customs at the ferry ports and airports where people will come in to mainland UK. Just check the passports of anyone not Irish." How would you know who was Irish and who was not without checking their passport? | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. " Leave campaign don't want to stop all immigration from the EU, what people want is controlled immigration. We have no control at all over EU immigration as members of the EU. We leave the EU we can say no to EU free movement of people rules and we can control immigration. As Nigel Farage pointed out tonight on Question Time surveys show over 70% of people in this country want controlled immigration as the current levels are unsustainable. This is a huge issue with the British public. | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. Leave campaign don't want to stop all immigration from the EU, what people want is controlled immigration. We have no control at all over EU immigration as members of the EU. We leave the EU we can say no to EU free movement of people rules and we can control immigration. As Nigel Farage pointed out tonight on Question Time surveys show over 70% of people in this country want controlled immigration as the current levels are unsustainable. This is a huge issue with the British public. " There is already a points based system for non eu migrants and these people already make up just over 50% of the immigrant arrivals to the UK. An EU points based system would preclude farm labourers, waiting staff and cleaners. These are the jobs that our long term enemoyable will simply not do. I was working in the Lake District in stoutest related industry mid 1990's to about 2007. The cleaning of holiday cottages every Saturday was a nightmare and contract cleaning companies had to arrange for two or three times the required labour on a Saturday knowing that half to two thirds of the cleaners that said that we would show up at 5am would not do so. By 2005 the contract cleaning industry in Penrith and Carisle had transformed with Eastwrn Europeans actually turning up to work and being dependable. Sick people would not qualify under a points based system. | |||
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"Just to note.. Being out does not mean immigration will stop. It just means terror suspects/convicts can be kicked out, people with specific skills that employers want can come in. I am an outer btw What about all the non-British EU citizens who are already here and working here, do employers want to kick them out and then get other immigrants in instead? no i can't see retrospective assessments like that. So do are people on the BREXIT side happy for all the immigrants who are currently here to stay? Of course. It's not about forcibly removing foreigners but controlling who comes here in the future. Workers yes, economic migrants no." But if the unlikely happens and the No vote got most, people from Europe will still be coming and going the same. And in the years that it will take to try to get an agreement with all the countries of Europe, the expected agreement will be like Norway, where Europeans still have free movement. So the whole charade changes nothing on immigration but damages our economy, costs jobs and likely makes the pound weaker - as has been happening recently. British tourists overseas then get to pay even more because of bad exchange rates. It's like a death wish that some Muppets must have created. | |||
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"No need. We have customs at the ferry ports and airports where people will come in to mainland UK. Just check the passports of anyone not Irish. How would you know who was Irish and who was not without checking their passport?" Easy, only stop those who are sober... | |||
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"Immigrant with an Irish passport. Do I stay or do I go now? " With the number of veri's you have, you're a national treasure, so can definitely stay  | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. " It won't as we would be leaving the EU, not the EEA which allows the free movement of people. I'm voting out so that we, as a country, are not forced to look outside of the UK for major tax-payer funded infrastructure purchases and can bail out important industries (steel and ship building, for example) which the EU makes extremely difficult. | |||
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""In a way BREXIT are right, if we vote to leave immigration will probably go down but only because when we leave the economy will be so badly damaged that they won't want to come." And our economy will recover from such a short shock treatment but it won't bve anything like what happened in 2006-8 so it's a risk I think we should be prepared to take. Let's not forget that our economy may not suffer at all. The 'experts' have been wrong before." It's only worth taking a risk if there is a likelihood of some real tangible benefit as a result of taking that risk. So far I've not seen anything from BREXIT that could be seen as a real tangible benefit for the UK from leaving. | |||
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""In a way BREXIT are right, if we vote to leave immigration will probably go down but only because when we leave the economy will be so badly damaged that they won't want to come." And our economy will recover from such a short shock treatment but it won't bve anything like what happened in 2006-8 so it's a risk I think we should be prepared to take. Let's not forget that our economy may not suffer at all. The 'experts' have been wrong before." Wrong before? I would go further and say when it come to the EU nearly always. Remember the prophesy's of doom if we leave the ERM? Remember the disaster that would befall us if we didn't join the Euro? I rest my case. | |||
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"If we vote to leave the EU, would you like to see passport checks on the Northern Ireland/Eire border? Or should Irish nationals be allowed free movement? Well they have had free movement for the last 100 years or so far longer than both the UK & Ireland have been in the EU why should that change when we leave Because, in the past, Eire had similar immigration controls with Europe as the UK had. That won't be the case if the UK leaves the EU. i think it would be ironic that the reason ireland didn't sign up to schengen is because they so valued the passport free agreement with the uk... only for some people in the UK to now tell them to "stfu"" I know I could check...but are Ireland part of Shengen or not? If they are out of Shengen then we can keep the open border. If they are in then it is a back door so would need to be closed. | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. " .....try living in the south east where migration is hugely more evident and getting worse , the m25 seems to be permanently grid locked these days , so we got to start somewhere to sort it out , and that time is now , the eu is finished, they know it and every one else does to in their heart of hearts | |||
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"Like everything else from BREXIT what they say on immigration is total lies and misinformation." .....do you know what really annoys me about remain camp about lies , is the fact the very man at the top of what you are following endorses telling lies , the eu president, jaun Claude unker said , and I quote , when your at talking about something serious, sometimes you have to lie ,.... fucking remain camp hypocritical lost causes all of you | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. .....try living in the south east where migration is hugely more evident and getting worse , the m25 seems to be permanently grid locked these days , so we got to start somewhere to sort it out , and that time is now , the eu is finished, they know it and every one else does to in their heart of hearts " The M25 is gridlocked because of our immigration policies?  | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. .....try living in the south east where migration is hugely more evident and getting worse , the m25 seems to be permanently grid locked these days , so we got to start somewhere to sort it out , and that time is now , the eu is finished, they know it and every one else does to in their heart of hearts The M25 is gridlocked because of our immigration policies? "....work it out , more and more people on the road in the south east , really !!!!! You need that spelling out to you , is so over crowded and getting worse , so yes | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. .....try living in the south east where migration is hugely more evident and getting worse , the m25 seems to be permanently grid locked these days , so we got to start somewhere to sort it out , and that time is now , the eu is finished, they know it and every one else does to in their heart of hearts The M25 is gridlocked because of our immigration policies? ....work it out , more and more people on the road in the south east , really !!!!! You need that spelling out to you , is so over crowded and getting worse , so yes"I don't need you to spell it out for me. Im quite capable phonetically speaking. Those pesky migrants and their cars eh! I hope your congestion eases.
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. .....try living in the south east where migration is hugely more evident and getting worse , the m25 seems to be permanently grid locked these days , so we got to start somewhere to sort it out , and that time is now , the eu is finished, they know it and every one else does to in their heart of hearts The M25 is gridlocked because of our immigration policies? ....work it out , more and more people on the road in the south east , really !!!!! You need that spelling out to you , is so over crowded and getting worse , so yes
I don't need you to spell it out for me. Im quite capable phonetically speaking.
Those pesky migrants and their cars eh! I hope your congestion eases.
"....me to and honestly if you sat in hours like i do on the m25 for hours like I do often enough, you can see the massive influx of population in the the south east , so please do not patronise me | |||
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"The M25 has always been chocca. I've wasted what must amount to a couple of years of my life on that bloody road. " ...I know and its got worse and only going to get worse , lbc radio even had a convo on it the other day and said migration influx has had an impact on congestion , just hate it when people write off what your saying as bullshit because they refuse to believe that theirs any truth in it , when clearly their is | |||
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"Made me think of http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/07/nigel-farage-blames-immigration-m4-traffic-ukip-reception" ..your the type I mean | |||
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"The M25 has always been chocca. I've wasted what must amount to a couple of years of my life on that bloody road. ...I know and its got worse and only going to get worse , lbc radio even had a convo on it the other day and said migration influx has had an impact on congestion , just hate it when people write off what your saying as bullshit because they refuse to believe that theirs any truth in it , when clearly their is " I wonder, if we close our borders, will the queues at Aldi be shorter? | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen I didn't think there were checks between NI/Eire, but am happy to be corrected. " There aren't,and in response to your opening post,yes. | |||
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"The North South devide issue has been going on since the early 80s. The free movment of British people to the south East for work goes back to the days of the Chingford Strangler and his on your bike nonsence. So is the next referendum SExit? EU lorries represnt the Trade this whole Island depends on. Dover our biggest port bottlneking the traffic. Terry Pratchet discribed the M25 as the equivelent of a satanic Prayer wheel genrating evil as it crawls along. And that was about 2 years after it opened. Long before these immagration worries. The answer is investment in the infastructure of our nation. Not remove the means to raise the money for it! Vote remain" lol, we are having to borrow to pay our EU membership, never mind investment in the infastructure of our nation, and the EU sure as hell aint going to help us!!!! that is why our roads and transport are crumbling, along with our schools, education, Housing, NHS and much more We need to leave now and build a better Britain, rather than focus on building a better EU Vote Leave | |||
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"We have border controls even today,and would still do if we stay in because we are not part of the Shengen I didn't think there were checks between NI/Eire, but am happy to be corrected. You are right... There are not The U.K. And Ireland have there own free travel area within the Schengen Agreement so people can travel without a passport between them But obviously if you are looking at keeping eu people out, you would think border controls would come back... Which would be a shame " This is true...the only reason why It could be argued to have it would be to control the current migrant problem which is one of the big arguing factors for leaving. This problem was caused because Mertle suddenly seemed to speak for all of Europe and said yes let everyone in...good reason for us to control....same argument for our military, business, workers and everything. We lost it when we joined...except for the sterling....interesting how the one thing we kept has actually done very well. I listened to that Scotish lady last night and funny how she now joins forces with the exits...only because this is how she can get what they didn't get in their reforendum. ...just shows what extremes politicians will go to to get what they want even if the people decided otherwise. | |||
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"I think dem immigrants only use the M25 between 7-9am and 5-7pm, so I'd try and avoid those times" ...such a smart arse, well dont worry that smile will be wiped of your face when its a leave vote as you and remain all know that's the reality out their when I've spoken to people about it , nearly every person wants out | |||
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"I think dem immigrants only use the M25 between 7-9am and 5-7pm, so I'd try and avoid those times... such a smart arse, well dont worry that smile will be wiped of your face when its a leave vote as you and remain all know that's the reality out their when I've spoken to people about it , nearly every person wants out " That's what I've seen up here too. I only know two people who are voting to remain and one of them is a Labour councillor. | |||
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"I think dem immigrants only use the M25 between 7-9am and 5-7pm, so I'd try and avoid those times...such a smart arse, well dont worry that smile will be wiped of your face when its a leave vote as you and remain all know that's the reality out their when I've spoken to people about it , nearly every person wants out " But won't the roads still be congested? The immigrants and their cars won't just vanish! | |||
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"I think dem immigrants only use the M25 between 7-9am and 5-7pm, so I'd try and avoid those times...such a smart arse, well dont worry that smile will be wiped of your face when its a leave vote as you and remain all know that's the reality out their when I've spoken to people about it , nearly every person wants out But won't the roads still be congested? The immigrants and their cars won't just vanish! " ...it will yes but hows the time to say enough its just to full , why cant people admit that , even if its only that | |||
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"I think dem immigrants only use the M25 between 7-9am and 5-7pm, so I'd try and avoid those times... such a smart arse, well dont worry that smile will be wiped of your face when its a leave vote as you and remain all know that's the reality out their when I've spoken to people about it , nearly every person wants out That's what I've seen up here too. I only know two people who are voting to remain and one of them is a Labour councillor. " ... | |||
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"The North South devide issue has been going on since the early 80s. The free movment of British people to the south East for work goes back to the days of the Chingford Strangler and his on your bike nonsence. So is the next referendum SExit? EU lorries represnt the Trade this whole Island depends on. Dover our biggest port bottlneking the traffic. Terry Pratchet discribed the M25 as the equivelent of a satanic Prayer wheel genrating evil as it crawls along. And that was about 2 years after it opened. Long before these immagration worries. The answer is investment in the infastructure of our nation. Not remove the means to raise the money for it! Vote remain" ....fool | |||
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"Sometimes I read comments off Bremainers and Brexiters and despair for this country. I am voting remain as many of you know as it benefits me more than leaving, but watching all this bickering isn't helping. Majority of people have already decided what they are voting. Stop trying to make them vote against their opinion" ..pmsl thats because you cant afford to loose their votes and you know it | |||
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"Sometimes I read comments off Bremainers and Brexiters and despair for this country. I am voting remain as many of you know as it benefits me more than leaving, but watching all this bickering isn't helping. Majority of people have already decided what they are voting. Stop trying to make them vote against their opinion" Shouldn't you write to David Cameron and request he do the same | |||
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" I feel really queasy reading the anti immigrant comments." ...why read them then lol | |||
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"Sometimes I read comments off Bremainers and Brexiters and despair for this country. I am voting remain as many of you know as it benefits me more than leaving, but watching all this bickering isn't helping. Majority of people have already decided what they are voting. Stop trying to make them vote against their opinion..pmsl thats because you cant afford to loose their votes and you know it " Oh, I know far more remainers than exiters statistics say you are more likely to vote remain if you are in university or already a graduate. So seeming how more people are in university now, I am not worried EU has done more for us than the British goverment has | |||
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"Sometimes I read comments off Bremainers and Brexiters and despair for this country. I am voting remain as many of you know as it benefits me more than leaving, but watching all this bickering isn't helping. Majority of people have already decided what they are voting. Stop trying to make them vote against their opinion" I'm not trying to get anyone to vote for or against. I'm questioning the comments made about immigrants and the M25. | |||
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" I feel really queasy reading the anti immigrant comments....why read them then lol" Oh, hang on. You're allowed to comment but I'm not? | |||
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"If we vote to leave the EU, would you like to see passport checks on the Northern Ireland/Eire border? Or should Irish nationals be allowed free movement? " Id go for it being a free movement deal. The problem wouldnt be the UK side of the border but the EU side Because once the uk is out the get outs in the schengan agreement would be gone and ireland would be expected by the EU to police it's new external border | |||
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"No need. We have customs at the ferry ports and airports where people will come in to mainland UK. Just check the passports of anyone not Irish. How would you know who was Irish and who was not without checking their passport? Easy, only stop those who are sober... "To be sure! | |||
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"Just on the point of the euro everyone knows if that was allowed and we gave up the pound we would be the kiss of death to the British economy for all time. I think the would be riots in the streets " Everyone knows?.... As it happens, nobody really knows. | |||
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"Border controls on Northern Ireland if we exit, of course. It would be like leaving the back door open" Not going to happen and in fact would be virtually impossible to put into effect, not least because of the geographical and political situation. | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. .....try living in the south east where migration is hugely more evident and getting worse , the m25 seems to be permanently grid locked these days , so we got to start somewhere to sort it out , and that time is now , the eu is finished, they know it and every one else does to in their heart of hearts " The EU is finished?.... Wow, that is s bit on an escalation from the UK referendum. I hope for all our sake that the EU is not finished as a collapse of the largest trading block in the world will have a recessionary affect on the whole planet. Why only earth would anyone want want that? | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. .....try living in the south east where migration is hugely more evident and getting worse , the m25 seems to be permanently grid locked these days , so we got to start somewhere to sort it out , and that time is now , the eu is finished, they know it and every one else does to in their heart of hearts The EU is finished?.... Wow, that is s bit on an escalation from the UK referendum. I hope for all our sake that the EU is not finished as a collapse of the largest trading block in the world will have a recessionary affect on the whole planet. Why only earth would anyone want want that?" Actually if that was the case it wouldn't be that bad. A global recession wouldn't be as devastating on everyone as one would imagine...poor or wealthy as say if China's economy complex collapsed. The goal posts would still be in the same positions just lower down for everyone except for those at the bottom who wouldn't know much about it as they aren't really in it. | |||
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"Just on the point of the euro everyone knows if that was allowed and we gave up the pound we would be the kiss of death to the British economy for all time. I think the would be riots in the streets Everyone knows?.... As it happens, nobody really knows." They wouldn't push the Euro on is anyway. They tried once and failed. A few EU countries don't have the Euro, but they do accept it in some stores. Perhaps we could implement this system into the British system | |||
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"If we vote to leave the EU, would you like to see passport checks on the Northern Ireland/Eire border? Or should Irish nationals be allowed free movement? " Full borders and no one is allowed in without a British Passport | |||
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"When Scotland was having it's #ref they were told of a strong possibility of border controls between Scotland and England so I don't see why it wouldn't happen in the case of NI and RoI. " That was David Cameron and his project Fear routine in the Scots referendum. He's doing exactly the same thing now in this EU referendum playing on Fear. The first minister of Northern Ireland said yesterday Blair and Major's comments were disgraceful and could destabilise the peace process, they should be ashamed of themselves. Republic of Ireland is a special case and always has been as we've had close historic bilateral agreements with them, no need for our relationship with Rep of Ireland to change if we leave the EU. | |||
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"I haven't read every post so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. There has been free movement of people between the Irish Republic and the UK since 1923. Its called 'The Common Travel Area' (CTA) and is a travel zone comprising Eire, the UK, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Currently only the UK and Eire are in the EU. Should the UK leave the EU the CTA will not be affected or changed. I would suggest we don't have too many problems getting in and out of the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands currently. During 'the Troubles' security, vehicle inspections and the need for full documents were stepped up on both sides of the land border but it was done within the terms of the CTA. Following the Good Friday agreement normal arrangements were resumed and have been in place ever since. Any EU passport holder (or indeed any other nationality) crossing from Eire to the UK can do so freely. As they can at any airport, port or station. People do take holidays here in the UK after all. What will NOT happen is those EU nationals then going to the nearest Job Centre and signing on with a new NI Number as 650,000 did last year. No NI number, no jobs, no benefits, no free homes etc. Any bilateral health arrangements will continue as they have always done even in pre-EU days. So I hope I have answered the OP's question fully and exposed some of the 'Remainers' myths of how all will change post Brexit. As far as our only land border is concerned nothing will change. It was important that the First Minister of Northern Ireland, Arlene Foster, nailed the lies Blair and Major were foisting on us. She exposed the 'Project fear' for what it was and said: "Mrs Foster said that it was “rather sad that people from the past in politics should come over here and try to destabilise Northern Ireland”." Very true and glad you aired that last point.....Most of the stay arguments I've heard from politicians have been scaremongering....its a reflection of how they're currently running things. | |||
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"When Scotland was having it's #ref they were told of a strong possibility of border controls between Scotland and England so I don't see why it wouldn't happen in the case of NI and RoI. That was David Cameron and his project Fear routine in the Scots referendum. He's doing exactly the same thing now in this EU referendum playing on Fear. The first minister of Northern Ireland said yesterday Blair and Major's comments were disgraceful and could destabilise the peace process, they should be ashamed of themselves. Republic of Ireland is a special case and always has been as we've had close historic bilateral agreements with them, no need for our relationship with Rep of Ireland to change if we leave the EU. " A lot of the people who supported that project fear are now complaining about this project fear.
So EU nationals free to travel to RoI, how do we stop them getting into the UK with no border with NI? | |||
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" So EU nationals free to travel to RoI, how do we stop them getting into the UK with no border with NI? " EU Nationals arriving in the UK is not the problem. We like holidaymakers. It is the rights they now have courtesy of the EU for: A new NI Number; access to full Welfare Benefits; the right to have Child Benefit paid in their homeland; the right to claim every benefit a UK national gets regardless of contributions; and to work wherever they please. An American arriving in Heathrow has to have a passport. They can visit wherever they choose. But that is all they can do without a Visa. Post Brexit a Hungarian arriving here must have a passport (as now) and can visit wherever they choose. But that is all they will be able to do without a Visa... | |||
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"If we vote to leave the EU, would you like to see passport checks on the Northern Ireland/Eire border? Or should Irish nationals be allowed free movement? Well they have had free movement for the last 100 years or so far longer than both the UK & Ireland have been in the EU why should that change when we leave Because, in the past, Eire had similar immigration controls with Europe as the UK had. That won't be the case if the UK leaves the EU. i think it would be ironic that the reason ireland didn't sign up to schengen is because they so valued the passport free agreement with the uk... only for some people in the UK to now tell them to "stfu" I know I could check...but are Ireland part of Shengen or not? If they are out of Shengen then we can keep the open border. If they are in then it is a back door so would need to be closed." Ireland is not part of Shengen however it will be still be part of the EU. If Ireland, as part of the EU has free movement of people but the UK does not it seems to me that it would be almost impossible for the UK and Ireland to keep our current arrangements with each other. | |||
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" Post Brexit a Hungarian arriving here must have a passport (as now) and can visit wherever they choose. But that is all they will be able to do without a Visa..." Must have a passport? Who's going to check it when there's no border checks between RoI and NI? | |||
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" Anyone else voting NO to stop movement is going to be upset as it won't. Agreed. Anyone who is voting out because they have the thought that it will stop EU migration is going to be in for one hell of a shock. .....try living in the south east where migration is hugely more evident and getting worse , the m25 seems to be permanently grid locked these days , so we got to start somewhere to sort it out , and that time is now , the eu is finished, they know it and every one else does to in their heart of hearts The M25 is gridlocked because of our immigration policies? ....work it out , more and more people on the road in the south east , really !!!!! You need that spelling out to you , is so over crowded and getting worse , so yes"Having lived in London from 1984 to 2003, I can inform you that the M25 has been gridlocked pretty much since the day it opened. I can also inform you that the M62 between Liverpool and Manchester, and the M60 (Manchester orbital) are gridlocked most mornings and have been since I moved here in 2003. I honestly don't think either the roads in the Northwest or the Southeast are or were grid locked because of too many immigrants using them. | |||
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" Ireland is not part of Shengen however it will be still be part of the EU. If Ireland, as part of the EU has free movement of people but the UK does not it seems to me that it would be almost impossible for the UK and Ireland to keep our current arrangements with each other. " Why not? we have had these arrangements since 1923 so included WWII when we were Combatants and Eire was neutral. It worked for 30 years after WWII when we joined the EEC (remember that?). ANd it has worked for 20 years since the EU was formed. Do not confuse 'free movement of people' with 'free movement of labour'. They are two different thing entirely. It is the excessive and uncontrolled movement of labour, which is what the EEC had right from the first Treaty of Rome and which the EU now promotes so aggressively, that is damaging the UK. Not thousands of holidaymakers. | |||
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" Post Brexit a Hungarian arriving here must have a passport (as now) and can visit wherever they choose. But that is all they will be able to do without a Visa... Must have a passport? Who's going to check it when there's no border checks between RoI and NI? " It is checked when they land in Eire and any NI Policeman can ask for identification. The visitor won't book a hotel without a passport. But importantly as I said: It is NOT the person arriving that is the issue. It is the current right to work and claim benefits that goes WITH that person that is the problem. A Hungarian going to NI for a holiday will be made most welcome. And they will need a passport to do that. | |||
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" Post Brexit a Hungarian arriving here must have a passport (as now) and can visit wherever they choose. But that is all they will be able to do without a Visa... Must have a passport? Who's going to check it when there's no border checks between RoI and NI? It is checked when they land in Eire and any NI Policeman can ask for identification. The visitor won't book a hotel without a passport. But importantly as I said: It is NOT the person arriving that is the issue. It is the current right to work and claim benefits that goes WITH that person that is the problem. A Hungarian going to NI for a holiday will be made most welcome. And they will need a passport to do that." Illegal immigration and smuggling exists. Dunno why people assume that will cease to exist just by leaving the EU, instead of potentially growing and more fraudulent claims being made. | |||
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" Ireland is not part of Shengen however it will be still be part of the EU. If Ireland, as part of the EU has free movement of people but the UK does not it seems to me that it would be almost impossible for the UK and Ireland to keep our current arrangements with each other. Why not? we have had these arrangements since 1923 so included WWII when we were Combatants and Eire was neutral. It worked for 30 years after WWII when we joined the EEC (remember that?). ANd it has worked for 20 years since the EU was formed. Do not confuse 'free movement of people' with 'free movement of labour'. They are two different thing entirely. It is the excessive and uncontrolled movement of labour, which is what the EEC had right from the first Treaty of Rome and which the EU now promotes so aggressively, that is damaging the UK. Not thousands of holidaymakers." I honestly hope you are right but I just don't think it would work. Currently British and Irish people have the same rights as each other in each others countries. From 1922 until now Britain and Ireland have had the same or similar immigration policies for both EU and non EU migrants. For that reason there has never been immigration controls between Britain and Ireland. If Britain leaves the EU and stops freedom of movement between the UK and the rest of the EU while Ireland remains and continues to have free movement between it's self and the EU then, without border checks between Britain and Ireland, how would we stop EU citizens coming illegally to Britain through Ireland? There maybe away but I can't think how. All BREXIT seem to say, like with everything else, 'don't worry, it'll be fine' but never, ever tell us how it's actually going to work and actually be fine. | |||
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"When Scotland was having it's #ref they were told of a strong possibility of border controls between Scotland and England so I don't see why it wouldn't happen in the case of NI and RoI. That was David Cameron and his project Fear routine in the Scots referendum. He's doing exactly the same thing now in this EU referendum playing on Fear. The first minister of Northern Ireland said yesterday Blair and Major's comments were disgraceful and could destabilise the peace process, they should be ashamed of themselves. Republic of Ireland is a special case and always has been as we've had close historic bilateral agreements with them, no need for our relationship with Rep of Ireland to change if we leave the EU. " No that was EU law. If scotland left the uk but stayed in the EU unless it negotiated a deal it would be required to police its external border with the uk. Just like france has to | |||
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" Ireland is not part of Shengen however it will be still be part of the EU. If Ireland, as part of the EU has free movement of people but the UK does not it seems to me that it would be almost impossible for the UK and Ireland to keep our current arrangements with each other. Why not? we have had these arrangements since 1923 so included WWII when we were Combatants and Eire was neutral. It worked for 30 years after WWII when we joined the EEC (remember that?). ANd it has worked for 20 years since the EU was formed. Do not confuse 'free movement of people' with 'free movement of labour'. They are two different thing entirely. It is the excessive and uncontrolled movement of labour, which is what the EEC had right from the first Treaty of Rome and which the EU now promotes so aggressively, that is damaging the UK. Not thousands of holidaymakers. I honestly hope you are right but I just don't think it would work. Currently British and Irish people have the same rights as each other in each others countries. From 1922 until now Britain and Ireland have had the same or similar immigration policies for both EU and non EU migrants. For that reason there has never been immigration controls between Britain and Ireland. If Britain leaves the EU and stops freedom of movement between the UK and the rest of the EU while Ireland remains and continues to have free movement between it's self and the EU then, without border checks between Britain and Ireland, how would we stop EU citizens coming illegally to Britain through Ireland? There maybe away but I can't think how. All BREXIT seem to say, like with everything else, 'don't worry, it'll be fine' but never, ever tell us how it's actually going to work and actually be fine. " I am sorry you quoted me but failed to understand my point. It is not about the person or where they come from that is the issue. It is the rights the EU confers on CERTAIN people to freely work and claim benefits wherever they choose that is the issue. As I said an American or a Hungarian arriving post Brexit will be made welcome as tourists. If they arrive to work here then Border Controls will inspect the necessary visas. To fail to have one or mis-declare anything will result in a court appearance and deportation as it does now. One thing that gets forgotten is that Irish Citizens have had exemplary rights here in the UK since long before any EEC or EU existed thanks to the CTA. UK citizens have a right to reside and work in the Irish republic and Irish citizens have similar rights here. Same as in the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. As it stands, people from Ireland (and the Commonwealth realms as it happens) have the right to vote in general elections in the UK. In addition, British citizens in Ireland can vote in all Dáil elections, under the Ninth Amendment to the Constitution of Ireland since the 1980s. That won't change either. | |||
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" Ireland is not part of Shengen however it will be still be part of the EU. If Ireland, as part of the EU has free movement of people but the UK does not it seems to me that it would be almost impossible for the UK and Ireland to keep our current arrangements with each other. Why not? we have had these arrangements since 1923 so included WWII when we were Combatants and Eire was neutral. It worked for 30 years after WWII when we joined the EEC (remember that?). ANd it has worked for 20 years since the EU was formed. Do not confuse 'free movement of people' with 'free movement of labour'. They are two different thing entirely. It is the excessive and uncontrolled movement of labour, which is what the EEC had right from the first Treaty of Rome and which the EU now promotes so aggressively, that is damaging the UK. Not thousands of holidaymakers. I honestly hope you are right but I just don't think it would work. Currently British and Irish people have the same rights as each other in each others countries. From 1922 until now Britain and Ireland have had the same or similar immigration policies for both EU and non EU migrants. For that reason there has never been immigration controls between Britain and Ireland. If Britain leaves the EU and stops freedom of movement between the UK and the rest of the EU while Ireland remains and continues to have free movement between it's self and the EU then, without border checks between Britain and Ireland, how would we stop EU citizens coming illegally to Britain through Ireland? There maybe away but I can't think how. All BREXIT seem to say, like with everything else, 'don't worry, it'll be fine' but never, ever tell us how it's actually going to work and actually be fine. I am sorry you quoted me but failed to understand my point. It is not about the person or where they come from that is the issue. It is the rights the EU confers on CERTAIN people to freely work and claim benefits wherever they choose that is the issue. As I said an American or a Hungarian arriving post Brexit will be made welcome as tourists. If they arrive to work here then Border Controls will inspect the necessary visas. To fail to have one or mis-declare anything will result in a court appearance and deportation as it does now. One thing that gets forgotten is that Irish Citizens have had exemplary rights here in the UK since long before any EEC or EU existed thanks to the CTA. UK citizens have a right to reside and work in the Irish republic and Irish citizens have similar rights here. Same as in the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. As it stands, people from Ireland (and the Commonwealth realms as it happens) have the right to vote in general elections in the UK. In addition, British citizens in Ireland can vote in all Dáil elections, under the Ninth Amendment to the Constitution of Ireland since the 1980s. That won't change either." I knew all of that already but thanks. I realise that we're not talking about people just coming over for a holiday but I still think a totally different immigration policy for EU citizens in Britain and Ireland would be difficult to police without some sort of physical immigration controls at the borders. But, as I said already, I don't think it's such a big deal that it will be the decider for many on whether they vote leave or remain. However it is another thing to take into consideration and the BREXIT answer of 'it will be fine, they're just scaremongering' on this and every other issue is becoming less and less satisfactory as an answer. | |||
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"When Scotland was having it's #ref they were told of a strong possibility of border controls between Scotland and England so I don't see why it wouldn't happen in the case of NI and RoI. That was David Cameron and his project Fear routine in the Scots referendum. He's doing exactly the same thing now in this EU referendum playing on Fear. The first minister of Northern Ireland said yesterday Blair and Major's comments were disgraceful and could destabilise the peace process, they should be ashamed of themselves. Republic of Ireland is a special case and always has been as we've had close historic bilateral agreements with them, no need for our relationship with Rep of Ireland to change if we leave the EU. No that was EU law. If scotland left the uk but stayed in the EU unless it negotiated a deal it would be required to police its external border with the uk. Just like france has to" An independent Scotland would have considerable trouble trying to join the EU as Spain have said loud and clear they would block them from joining in the European parliament. | |||
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"When Scotland was having it's #ref they were told of a strong possibility of border controls between Scotland and England so I don't see why it wouldn't happen in the case of NI and RoI. That was David Cameron and his project Fear routine in the Scots referendum. He's doing exactly the same thing now in this EU referendum playing on Fear. The first minister of Northern Ireland said yesterday Blair and Major's comments were disgraceful and could destabilise the peace process, they should be ashamed of themselves. Republic of Ireland is a special case and always has been as we've had close historic bilateral agreements with them, no need for our relationship with Rep of Ireland to change if we leave the EU. No that was EU law. If scotland left the uk but stayed in the EU unless it negotiated a deal it would be required to police its external border with the uk. Just like france has to An independent Scotland would have considerable trouble trying to join the EU as Spain have said loud and clear they would block them from joining in the European parliament. " Thats not actually true. Its something i belived and parroted too but iirc the spanish pm (president?) Did come out and say they would not block Scotlands admission. Admitedly it was late in the game when the result was pretty certain so may have been mlre pr control but it does void the spanish blocker claim | |||
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"When Scotland was having it's #ref they were told of a strong possibility of border controls between Scotland and England so I don't see why it wouldn't happen in the case of NI and RoI. " I am so applying for one of those jobs at checkpoint rab ... Or checkpoint tarquin for those going south | |||
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" ....the BREXIT answer of 'it will be fine, they're just scaremongering' on this and every other issue is becoming less and less satisfactory as an answer. " Well on this topic it WILL be OK as I just explained in some detail. We have managed it all before and know hat the problems are. Now as to the general point simply because the Remain side put up some huge figure that the country will lose doesn't make it a fact. It is just an opinion or scaremongering (delete as you choose). Most of their rubbish isn't even worth a response but thye media demand it and hey presto we get the quotes of 'It will be OK'. Its just they forget to write the attached reasons given by the Brexit side. And lets remember it is the same 'experts' (aka vested interests) who said: * We would be great in the ERM. But we weren't. * It would be a disaster if we pulled out. But it wasn't. * It would be a disaster if we failed to join the Euro. But it wasn't. So they were wrong so many times before and they are wrong now. For every scenario the 'Remainers' throw up there has been an answer and a contrary view provided by the 'Brexiters'. Sadly it is people like us who have to dig into the detail to find those answers as Mainstream media just gives headlines these days. let me give an example. That £4,300 each family will 'lose'? Well it was carefully worded and it was loss of GDP per household. Not Income. Given the average income is £44k and the average GDP is £66k that was a misleading statement out by at least 50%. But who bothers to read the detail of the answer. That £4,300 number was based on a worst case forecast by a Treasury that was so bad at forecasting it had to offload the task the the OBR... | |||
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" ....the BREXIT answer of 'it will be fine, they're just scaremongering' on this and every other issue is becoming less and less satisfactory as an answer. Well on this topic it WILL be OK as I just explained in some detail. We have managed it all before and know hat the problems are. Now as to the general point simply because the Remain side put up some huge figure that the country will lose doesn't make it a fact. It is just an opinion or scaremongering (delete as you choose). Most of their rubbish isn't even worth a response but thye media demand it and hey presto we get the quotes of 'It will be OK'. Its just they forget to write the attached reasons given by the Brexit side. And lets remember it is the same 'experts' (aka vested interests) who said: * We would be great in the ERM. But we weren't. * It would be a disaster if we pulled out. But it wasn't. * It would be a disaster if we failed to join the Euro. But it wasn't. So they were wrong so many times before and they are wrong now. For every scenario the 'Remainers' throw up there has been an answer and a contrary view provided by the 'Brexiters'. Sadly it is people like us who have to dig into the detail to find those answers as Mainstream media just gives headlines these days. let me give an example. That £4,300 each family will 'lose'? Well it was carefully worded and it was loss of GDP per household. Not Income. Given the average income is £44k and the average GDP is £66k that was a misleading statement out by at least 50%. But who bothers to read the detail of the answer. That £4,300 number was based on a worst case forecast by a Treasury that was so bad at forecasting it had to offload the task the the OBR..." Good post. | |||
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" ....the BREXIT answer of 'it will be fine, they're just scaremongering' on this and every other issue is becoming less and less satisfactory as an answer. Well on this topic it WILL be OK as I just explained in some detail. We have managed it all before and know hat the problems are. Now as to the general point simply because the Remain side put up some huge figure that the country will lose doesn't make it a fact. It is just an opinion or scaremongering (delete as you choose). Most of their rubbish isn't even worth a response but thye media demand it and hey presto we get the quotes of 'It will be OK'. Its just they forget to write the attached reasons given by the Brexit side. And lets remember it is the same 'experts' (aka vested interests) who said: * We would be great in the ERM. But we weren't. * It would be a disaster if we pulled out. But it wasn't. * It would be a disaster if we failed to join the Euro. But it wasn't. So they were wrong so many times before and they are wrong now. For every scenario the 'Remainers' throw up there has been an answer and a contrary view provided by the 'Brexiters'. Sadly it is people like us who have to dig into the detail to find those answers as Mainstream media just gives headlines these days. let me give an example. That £4,300 each family will 'lose'? Well it was carefully worded and it was loss of GDP per household. Not Income. Given the average income is £44k and the average GDP is £66k that was a misleading statement out by at least 50%. But who bothers to read the detail of the answer. That £4,300 number was based on a worst case forecast by a Treasury that was so bad at forecasting it had to offload the task the the OBR..." | |||
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" ....the BREXIT answer of 'it will be fine, they're just scaremongering' on this and every other issue is becoming less and less satisfactory as an answer. Well on this topic it WILL be OK as I just explained in some detail. We have managed it all before and know hat the problems are. " Except that you haven't really explained how it's going to be OK at all. All you've said is that the UK/Ireland arrangements have existed since 1922, long before the EU, and because of that they will survive us leaving. My point, which you seem to have totally ignored, is that, in the past, the UK and Ireland have had the same or similar policies to both EU and non EU immigration so having free movement between the UK and Ireland was not a problem. That won't be the case if Ireland allows free movement of EU citizens and the UK does not. In that scenario I can't see anyway of stoping illegal EU citizens entering the UK from Ireland without some sort of physical immigration control at the borders between the UK and Ireland. And I'll ask you again, if you know how it could be done please tell. " Now as to the general point simply because the Remain side put up some huge figure that the country will lose doesn't make it a fact. It is just an opinion or scaremongering (delete as you choose). " You're right, it is an opinion but an opinion gains credibility when almost all the experts who look at it agree with that opinion. " Most of their rubbish isn't even worth a response but thye media demand it and hey presto we get the quotes of 'It will be OK'. Its just they forget to write the attached reasons given by the Brexit side." Then here is your opportunity to put the record straight and actually tell us what the reasons are that make the BREXIT side, against all the available evidence, always think that 'it will be ok' " And lets remember it is the same 'experts' (aka vested interests) who said: " note the discrediting slur. Maybe you should actually provide some proof that all the experts have vested interests, if you can, before you start throwing such unfounded accusations around. " * We would be great in the ERM. But we weren't. * It would be a disaster if we pulled out. But it wasn't. " expert opinion was actually very divided over whether joining the ERM was a good idea for the UK or not. That's why, although the ERM was set up in 1979 the UK didn't join until 1990. As it turned out in 1992 the experts who had argued that joining the ERM would be bad for Britain were correct. " * It would be a disaster if we failed to join the Euro. But it wasn't. " But that's not what the experts actually said either. Some Europhiles were strongly in favour of the UK joining the Euro and some Europhobes were strongly against the UK joining the Euro. Neither of those two groups were made up experts. What the experts actually said was, if the Euro was set up correctly, with the correct terms of entry for all members then it may be in the UK's interests to be a member. This expert advice formed the basis of Gordon Brown's tests for membership and, based on those tests and the overwhelming expert advice at the time, we did not join. Is sticks in my throat every time I say it but on this issue Gordon Brown, following the experts advice, got it absolutely right on the money. " So they were wrong so many times before and they are wrong now. " some experts have been wrong in the past and some have been right. However when governments have acted on the majority advice off the experts (such as not joining the Euro) we've done OK and when governments have acted on mixed advice from experts (such as joining the ERM) we've not done so well. If we and our government now act in a way completely against the advice of nearly all the experts I really don't think things will turnout well. " For every scenario the 'Remainers' throw up there has been an answer and a contrary view provided by the 'Brexiters'. " But never mentioned that the scenarios thrown up by BREMAIN are backed up by the majority of leading experts while the BREXITers' contrary view is backed up normally by none, one or possibly 6 experts that no one has ever heard from before. " Sadly it is people like us who have to dig into the detail to find those answers as Mainstream media just gives headlines these days. let me give an example. That £4,300 each family will 'lose'? Well it was carefully worded and it was loss of GDP per household. Not Income. Given the average income is £44k and the average GDP is £66k that was a misleading statement out by at least 50%. But who bothers to read the detail of the answer. That £4,300 number was based on a worst case forecast by a Treasury that was so bad at forecasting it had to offload the task the the OBR..." I was never under the delusion that the £4,300 per person loss in GDP was anything else. Maybe I just look more closely at figures than most. But while that figure may be misleading to some at least it has a basis in fact, unlike the £350 million BREXIT claim we pay to the EU each week. We never pay it. We actually pay closer to £250 million and get back about a further £100 million. The £350 million figure is quite simply a lie. | |||
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" ....the BREXIT answer of 'it will be fine, they're just scaremongering' on this and every other issue is becoming less and less satisfactory as an answer. Well on this topic it WILL be OK as I just explained in some detail. We have managed it all before and know hat the problems are. Now as to the general point simply because the Remain side put up some huge figure that the country will lose doesn't make it a fact. It is just an opinion or scaremongering (delete as you choose). Most of their rubbish isn't even worth a response but thye media demand it and hey presto we get the quotes of 'It will be OK'. Its just they forget to write the attached reasons given by the Brexit side. And lets remember it is the same 'experts' (aka vested interests) who said: * We would be great in the ERM. But we weren't. * It would be a disaster if we pulled out. But it wasn't. * It would be a disaster if we failed to join the Euro. But it wasn't. So they were wrong so many times before and they are wrong now. For every scenario the 'Remainers' throw up there has been an answer and a contrary view provided by the 'Brexiters'. Sadly it is people like us who have to dig into the detail to find those answers as Mainstream media just gives headlines these days. let me give an example. That £4,300 each family will 'lose'? Well it was carefully worded and it was loss of GDP per household. Not Income. Given the average income is £44k and the average GDP is £66k that was a misleading statement out by at least 50%. But who bothers to read the detail of the answer. That £4,300 number was based on a worst case forecast by a Treasury that was so bad at forecasting it had to offload the task the the OBR... Good post. "You really think it was good? I mean I'll agree with you it wasn't bad. At least it didn't go into a tirade of personal abuse like many seem to. But it hasn't actually answered my question. I'm still no wiser as to how EU citizens entering the UK from Ireland, if we leave the EU, are actually going to be policed. | |||
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"Lifted from my FB page: OK, here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then: Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant. Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant. Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds. Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan. Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200. M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan. Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants. Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant. Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant. Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant. Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding. Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing. ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. UK airports are owned by a Spanish company. Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company. Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies. The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online. Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. 39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently. Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations. I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there. I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany. Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea, 1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party. 2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down. 3/ You don't care." Can you provide some information as to where you sourced your information? As it stands it's just a list of unsubstantiated allegations. | |||
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"Lifted from my FB page: OK, here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then: Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant. Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant. Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds. Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan. Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200. M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan. Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants. Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant. Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant. Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant. Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding. Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing. ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. UK airports are owned by a Spanish company. Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company. Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies. The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online. Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. 39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently. Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations. I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there. I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany. Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea, 1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party. 2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down. 3/ You don't care. Can you provide some information as to where you sourced your information? As it stands it's just a list of unsubstantiated allegations." He won't be able to as most of it is bollocks. boots for example is us owned. | |||
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"Feel free to post evidence to the contrary. " You're making the allegations not me. All I'm asking is that you provide some information as to source of your information. If you don't want to do that that's fine by me. | |||
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" Always have to laugh when the toxic Tony Blair gets involved and telling us all we should stay in the EU.
In other news The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Theresa Villiers and The DUP party in Northern Ireland have been making the case for Brexit saying why we should leave the EU to counter Blair and Major.
If you want to lose a vote get Blair in. Even die hard socialists who hate Cameron with a passion hate Blair more. " I dont hate either . Tony Blair brokered peace in Northern Ireland and managed economy well , but not as well as David Cameron.
Interesting both Blair and Cameron have very talented wives as well.
Where both Blair and Cameron have let us down is their failure to address the issue of immigration which is probably one of the most imporant issues to most people .
In his victory speech Tony Blair said things can only get better.
He was a great Prime Minister but not as good as David Cameron. | |||
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" Always have to laugh when the toxic Tony Blair gets involved and telling us all we should stay in the EU.
In other news The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Theresa Villiers and The DUP party in Northern Ireland have been making the case for Brexit saying why we should leave the EU to counter Blair and Major.
If you want to lose a vote get Blair in. Even die hard socialists who hate Cameron with a passion hate Blair more. I dont hate either . Tony Blair brokered peace in Northern Ireland and managed economy well , but not as well as David Cameron.
Interesting both Blair and Cameron have very talented wives as well.
Where both Blair and Cameron have let us down is their failure to address the issue of immigration which is probably one of the most imporant issues to most people .
In his victory speech Tony Blair said things can only get better.
He was a great Prime Minister but not as good as David Cameron. "judging one against the other after such a short tenure for one of them is a bit weird Pat, Cameron has only been in power for 13 months.. or is it because you want to praise him that the coalition of 2010-15 was all good due to his leadership.. NHS operation waiting lists, time spent waiting in A&E and the national debt are not good reading.. Blair and i'm not a fan was elected 3 times (by some now Tories/Ukip etc), Cameron has been elected once.. | |||
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"Feel free to post evidence to the contrary. You're making the allegations not me. All I'm asking is that you provide some information as to source of your information. If you don't want to do that that's fine by me. " He can't because most of it is made up. | |||
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"When Scotland was having it's #ref they were told of a strong possibility of border controls between Scotland and England so I don't see why it wouldn't happen in the case of NI and RoI. That was David Cameron and his project Fear routine in the Scots referendum. He's doing exactly the same thing now in this EU referendum playing on Fear. The first minister of Northern Ireland said yesterday Blair and Major's comments were disgraceful and could destabilise the peace process, they should be ashamed of themselves. Republic of Ireland is a special case and always has been as we've had close historic bilateral agreements with them, no need for our relationship with Rep of Ireland to change if we leave the EU. I agree with you on the relationship front pre-existing treaties we hope would kick back in. However there are implications for peace in a Brexit. The greater normaity and close ties are kept the less support for alternatives to violance. Blair is a War Criminal Major however is not. And he is worth listening to. The first Minister is a Unionist and a Leave supporter. So she will say Leave is better would she not. UK out of Europe makes the Boarder more meaningful and thats what Unionists want. " | |||
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" ....the BREXIT answer of 'it will be fine, they're just scaremongering' on this and every other issue is becoming less and less satisfactory as an answer. Well on this topic it WILL be OK as I just explained in some detail. We have managed it all before and know hat the problems are. Now as to the general point simply because the Remain side put up some huge figure that the country will lose doesn't make it a fact. It is just an opinion or scaremongering (delete as you choose). Most of their rubbish isn't even worth a response but thye media demand it and hey presto we get the quotes of 'It will be OK'. Its just they forget to write the attached reasons given by the Brexit side. And lets remember it is the same 'experts' (aka vested interests) who said: * We would be great in the ERM. But we weren't. * It would be a disaster if we pulled out. But it wasn't. * It would be a disaster if we failed to join the Euro. But it wasn't. So they were wrong so many times before and they are wrong now. For every scenario the 'Remainers' throw up there has been an answer and a contrary view provided by the 'Brexiters'. Sadly it is people like us who have to dig into the detail to find those answers as Mainstream media just gives headlines these days. let me give an example. That £4,300 each family will 'lose'? Well it was carefully worded and it was loss of GDP per household. Not Income. Given the average income is £44k and the average GDP is £66k that was a misleading statement out by at least 50%. But who bothers to read the detail of the answer. That £4,300 number was based on a worst case forecast by a Treasury that was so bad at forecasting it had to offload the task the the OBR... "Ok your right of course the £4,300 figure is nonsece from Osborn. But the,We will do swimmingly and its all pop and icecream for blighty' from Boris is equally Bollocks. Anyone who thinks there will be NO economic impact from Brexit is delusional. The honest answer is, "we dont know', seams a hell of a gamble to take. Renaining means jelly and bickies all round is also bull. But its devil we know and Devil we dont. | |||
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"Cameron shared publicly in November last year that the UK could prosper outside of the EU. He sings a different tune now though. " Ultimately the UK may prosper outside the EU but there is no doubt that in the short to medium term we will be worse of outside the Single Market than we are in. It's also probably true, most experts seem to agree, that in the long term, while we may prosper outside the EU, we would prosper even more if we stayed in. | |||
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