FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Why Im voting to Stay
Why Im voting to Stay
Jump to: Newest in thread
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Great idea for a thread. Without going into any more detail than I have to my thoughts are currently like this: Economically. In, by a million miles. Security. In, for the most part. Immigration. Completley split. Wrestling with it a great deal. Sovereignty issues. Out. By a long way. So on balance, I'm voting in. (Ask me again next week though) What amazes me the most is the number of people, including the most vocal of those in here, who have made up their minds that everything about one side or other is good or bad. How can people not see that there are pros and cons both ways?"  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So I'm going to be voting to stay within the EU in the upcoming referendum. As with a most complicated decisions their are a lot of factors making up my decision but my No.1 is Security. At the end of WWII Europe was a continent that had been at war with its self for hundred of years. The great grandfather of the EU was the European Steal and Coal Community. One of the stated aims of the ESCC was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". By tying the economies of the major European countries together war would become impossible. Look at the peace there is in Europe between the major powers today. This peace in Europe was unheard of before the ESCC and then the EEC, EU etc. Without peace, there can be no prosperity. So what is your No.1 reason for wanting to stay? The economy? Defence & Security? Free movement of sexy people that you have fallen in love with? Sexy people that you want to play with? Scientific research and academic funding?" I can understand your point of view but if Brussels can't keep itself safe, what hope for the rest of us under Brussels umbrella? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So I'm going to be voting to stay within the EU in the upcoming referendum. As with a most complicated decisions their are a lot of factors making up my decision but my No.1 is Security. At the end of WWII Europe was a continent that had been at war with its self for hundred of years. The great grandfather of the EU was the European Steal and Coal Community. One of the stated aims of the ESCC was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". By tying the economies of the major European countries together war would become impossible. Look at the peace there is in Europe between the major powers today. This peace in Europe was unheard of before the ESCC and then the EEC, EU etc. Without peace, there can be no prosperity. So what is your No.1 reason for wanting to stay? The economy? Defence & Security? Free movement of sexy people that you have fallen in love with? Sexy people that you want to play with? Scientific research and academic funding?" I don't think that us leaving the EU will lead to a war in Europe. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I don't think that us leaving the EU will lead to a war in Europe." And nor does anyone else. Cameron said Europe would be less stable and a more dengerouse place of we left, and I agree. The Brexiters then claimed he had said of we leave it will cause WW3. Which he did not. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I don't think that us leaving the EU will lead to a war in Europe. And nor does anyone else. Cameron said Europe would be less stable and a more dengerouse place of we left, and I agree. The Brexiters then claimed he had said of we leave it will cause WW3. Which he did not. " That did seem to be the main point made by the OP, though. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I don't think that us leaving the EU will lead to a war in Europe. And nor does anyone else. Cameron said Europe would be less stable and a more dengerouse place of we left, and I agree. The Brexiters then claimed he had said of we leave it will cause WW3. Which he did not. That did seem to be the main point made by the OP, though." Sorry obviously I must not have put my point across very clearly in my OP. I dont think that leaving the EU will cause WWIII no. But would WWIII have occured already at some point since the end of WWII and today if their hadn't been an EU or the predecessors institutions? I think that there is a good chance that it might have. The EU (and its predecessors) have been fantastic in getting rid of the causes of aggression between nation states in Europe. Without that threat of aggression countries are now working together, rather than fighting. So I think we owe a lot for that. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So I'm going to be voting to stay within the EU in the upcoming referendum. As with a most complicated decisions their are a lot of factors making up my decision but my No.1 is Security. At the end of WWII Europe was a continent that had been at war with its self for hundred of years. The great grandfather of the EU was the European Steal and Coal Community. One of the stated aims of the ESCC was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". By tying the economies of the major European countries together war would become impossible. Look at the peace there is in Europe between the major powers today. This peace in Europe was unheard of before the ESCC and then the EEC, EU etc. Without peace, there can be no prosperity. So what is your No.1 reason for wanting to stay? The economy? Defence & Security? Free movement of sexy people that you have fallen in love with? Sexy people that you want to play with? Scientific research and academic funding? I can understand your point of view but if Brussels can't keep itself safe, what hope for the rest of us under Brussels umbrella? " I think you confuse the Belgium security forces with the EU. ours went up to scratch on 7/7. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So I'm going to be voting to stay within the EU in the upcoming referendum. As with a most complicated decisions their are a lot of factors making up my decision but my No.1 is Security. At the end of WWII Europe was a continent that had been at war with its self for hundred of years. The great grandfather of the EU was the European Steal and Coal Community. One of the stated aims of the ESCC was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". By tying the economies of the major European countries together war would become impossible. Look at the peace there is in Europe between the major powers today. This peace in Europe was unheard of before the ESCC and then the EEC, EU etc. Without peace, there can be no prosperity. So what is your No.1 reason for wanting to stay? The economy? Defence & Security? Free movement of sexy people that you have fallen in love with? Sexy people that you want to play with? Scientific research and academic funding? I don't think that us leaving the EU will lead to a war in Europe." not straight away of course not. but longer term? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 ) | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I can understand your point of view but if Brussels can't keep itself safe, what hope for the rest of us under Brussels umbrella? " I'm talking about how state on state aggression between the major countries in Europe has stopped. Im not saying that there isn't any potential threats to Europe anymore. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I don't think that us leaving the EU will lead to a war in Europe. And nor does anyone else. Cameron said Europe would be less stable and a more dengerouse place of we left, and I agree. The Brexiters then claimed he had said of we leave it will cause WW3. Which he did not. That did seem to be the main point made by the OP, though. Sorry obviously I must not have put my point across very clearly in my OP. I dont think that leaving the EU will cause WWIII no. But would WWIII have occured already at some point since the end of WWII and today if their hadn't been an EU or the predecessors institutions? I think that there is a good chance that it might have. The EU (and its predecessors) have been fantastic in getting rid of the causes of aggression between nation states in Europe. Without that threat of aggression countries are now working together, rather than fighting. So I think we owe a lot for that. " No. WWWIII would not have happened. Nor is it going to. There are enough wars happening. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Democracy - out Security - out Economy - out Sovereignty - out Immigration - out Judiciary - out The stated aim of the EU is a federal republic, a united states of Europe, with one currency, one legislature, one army, all run by unelected eurocrats. If you vote to stay, that is what you are voting for." might help if you did a little research before making such an ill informed post as this. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Democracy - out Security - out Economy - out Sovereignty - out Immigration - out Judiciary - out The stated aim of the EU is a federal republic, a united states of Europe, with one currency, one legislature, one army, all run by unelected eurocrats. If you vote to stay, that is what you are voting for." | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Democracy - out Security - out Economy - out Sovereignty - out Immigration - out Judiciary - out The stated aim of the EU is a federal republic, a united states of Europe, with one currency, one legislature, one army, all run by unelected eurocrats. If you vote to stay, that is what you are voting for. " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"My No.1 reason for voting in is not to deter the threat of war. Wars are no longer fought with weapons, they are fought with economic sanctions, freezing of public and private assets or trade blocks. My No.1 reason to vote in is that voting out would have a drastic global destabilising consequence. We are a world financial power where voting out would mean markets out of London would be turned upside down overnight. It would then follow that voting out then would mean any number of European countries would follow suit, bringing it back to a state of sovereign nations. The 2nd reason being the Human Rights Act would no longer be in force, leaving our civil rights threadbare or a re-writing of laws that will take years to amend. " how come the Deutsche Borse is looking to merge with the London Stock Exchange then? Follow the money and the human rights act is a farce as it is | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"My No.1 reason for voting in is not to deter the threat of war. Wars are no longer fought with weapons, they are fought with economic sanctions, freezing of public and private assets or trade blocks. My No.1 reason to vote in is that voting out would have a drastic global destabilising consequence. We are a world financial power where voting out would mean markets out of London would be turned upside down overnight. It would then follow that voting out then would mean any number of European countries would follow suit, bringing it back to a state of sovereign nations. The 2nd reason being the Human Rights Act would no longer be in force, leaving our civil rights threadbare or a re-writing of laws that will take years to amend. how come the Deutsche Borse is looking to merge with the London Stock Exchange then? Follow the money and the human rights act is a farce as it is " I think you need to look up what the stock market merger would actually involve. ... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Put the light on and get out " sorry what your last meet said to you is not relevant to this thread | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" The EU (and its predecessors) have been fantastic in getting rid of the causes of aggression between nation states in Europe. Without that threat of aggression countries are now working together, rather than fighting. So I think we owe a lot for that. " And NATO have done nothing to achieve this? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Democracy - out Security - out Economy - out Sovereignty - out Immigration - out Judiciary - out The stated aim of the EU is a federal republic, a united states of Europe, with one currency, one legislature, one army, all run by unelected eurocrats. If you vote to stay, that is what you are voting for. might help if you did a little research before making such an ill informed post as this." I've done loads of research, listened to hours of debates (incl the 90 min debate organised by The Spectator at the London Palladium on 28th Apr) and could write pages on the justification for each of my conclusions above. I think I'm probably one of the better informed on this issue. I have no idea what research and analysis you have done, so I won't resort to petty insults about your ignorance. I'll leave that approach to those from the remainders camp. Oh, if we leave, giant spiders from Mars will invade and it will cost the average household £4k pa - yeah right | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" The EU (and its predecessors) have been fantastic in getting rid of the causes of aggression between nation states in Europe. Without that threat of aggression countries are now working together, rather than fighting. So I think we owe a lot for that. And NATO have done nothing to achieve this?" it is possible for two organisations to have both contributed to the same achievement. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out as soon as possible-Un-elected and costing us a fortune daily. "to belong to a club you have to pay membership. yes that is a cost but you forget the benefits you get from being in the club. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out for me " give me 3 good reasons why? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Democracy - out Security - out Economy - out Sovereignty - out Immigration - out Judiciary - out The stated aim of the EU is a federal republic, a united states of Europe, with one currency, one legislature, one army, all run by unelected eurocrats. If you vote to stay, that is what you are voting for. might help if you did a little research before making such an ill informed post as this. I've done loads of research, listened to hours of debates (incl the 90 min debate organised by The Spectator at the London Palladium on 28th Apr) and could write pages on the justification for each of my conclusions above. I think I'm probably one of the better informed on this issue. I have no idea what research and analysis you have done, so I won't resort to petty insults about your ignorance. I'll leave that approach to those from the remainders camp. Oh, if we leave, giant spiders from Mars will invade and it will cost the average household £4k pa - yeah right "Are you really that pompous to say you are better informed? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I want to stay. But i want us to beable to control are boarders similar to the Aussies, i also think we should take back control of our laws from brussels.. So am still ndecided. Cameron should get some balls.. What are they going to do, throw us out.. Just fukin tell them this whats happing Dav. "We have control of our borders we are not part of the passport free area. we have the right of veto over virtually all areas of legislation and most gold plating is done in this country not Brussels. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Are you really that pompous to say you are better informed?" Read what I wrote. I consider myself one of the better informed on this issue, yes. As in better informed than most that I encounter who express an opinion. I started off by spending several hours looking at how the EU is organised, its governance, its electoral college and its stated aims. Then I looked at the figures - another several hours. Then I listened to several hours of argument and counter argument from protagonists from both sides. All in all, I estimate I've spent around 40 hours or more, researching and analysing available information and arguments. I doubt many can say the same. It's an important decision that requires serious investigation and analysis. Are you so pompous as to start trading petty insults, knowing nothing of what I know or have done to ensure that I am as informed as I can be? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" The EU (and its predecessors) have been fantastic in getting rid of the causes of aggression between nation states in Europe. Without that threat of aggression countries are now working together, rather than fighting. So I think we owe a lot for that. And NATO have done nothing to achieve this? it is possible for two organisations to have both contributed to the same achievement. " Anyone would think that the EU have achieved this all on their own, given some of the statements being made over the last few weeks. I would credit NATO as being mainly responsible for this. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I want to stay. But i want us to beable to control are boarders similar to the Aussies, i also think we should take back control of our laws from brussels.. So am still ndecided. Cameron should get some balls.. What are they going to do, throw us out.. Just fukin tell them this whats happing Dav.
We have control of our borders we are not part of the passport free area.
we have the right of veto over virtually all areas of legislation and most gold plating is done in this country not Brussels. "So are you in or out.. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'm voting In. I think the economic reason is pretty clear, also I prefer to be governed by Europe than the tories. Above all, I don't want to be associated with the out camp. " Cameron wants us in right? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I've had family members fight and die in two world wars along with millions of others to stop Germany conquering Europe and they would turn in their graves to think people would now make their sacrifice pointless by surrendering at the stroke of a pen. " We're already in. The pen has struck! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I've had family members fight and die in two world wars along with millions of others to stop Germany conquering Europe and they would turn in their graves to think people would now make their sacrifice pointless by surrendering at the stroke of a pen. " They would be turning in their graves to think that now the countries of Europe are now working together? That we no longer send your young men and women to fight and die on the battlefields of Europe? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Are you really that pompous to say you are better informed? Read what I wrote. I consider myself one of the better informed on this issue, yes. As in better informed than most that I encounter who express an opinion. I started off by spending several hours looking at how the EU is organised, its governance, its electoral college and its stated aims. Then I looked at the figures - another several hours. Then I listened to several hours of argument and counter argument from protagonists from both sides. All in all, I estimate I've spent around 40 hours or more, researching and analysing available information and arguments. I doubt many can say the same. It's an important decision that requires serious investigation and analysis. Are you so pompous as to start trading petty insults, knowing nothing of what I know or have done to ensure that I am as informed as I can be? " But you think you know more about the economy than the chancellor, the IMF, the OECD, 8 former US Treasury Secretaries and 9 out of 10 UK economists? Do you think you know more about defence than the heads of NATO, the chiefs of defence staff? Do you think you know more about security than the heads of MI5 and MI6, the last 40 years worth of CIA chiefs, NSA Advisors and US Secretary of States? Do you think you know more about the inpact on research and academia than Robert Winston, Stephen Hawking, and more than 150 fellows of the Royal Society? Do you think you know more about global business than the heads of Coca-Cola, RBS, Caterpillar, Unilever, EasyJet and HSBC? Because if you do, and you are a world leading expert in all of these diverse fields, then you must be a very accomplished, and impressive human being. I'm not listening to friends down the pub, or what a journalist writes, I'm listening to experts in their fields. People who are at the very top of their game and know what they are talking about. Do you really think that all of these experts have come to the same conclusion and that they are wrong? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Are you really that pompous to say you are better informed? Read what I wrote. I consider myself one of the better informed on this issue, yes. As in better informed than most that I encounter who express an opinion. I started off by spending several hours looking at how the EU is organised, its governance, its electoral college and its stated aims. Then I looked at the figures - another several hours. Then I listened to several hours of argument and counter argument from protagonists from both sides. All in all, I estimate I've spent around 40 hours or more, researching and analysing available information and arguments. I doubt many can say the same. It's an important decision that requires serious investigation and analysis. Are you so pompous as to start trading petty insults, knowing nothing of what I know or have done to ensure that I am as informed as I can be? " yes you are pompous as a few several hours would suggest! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Great idea for a thread. Without going into any more detail than I have to my thoughts are currently like this: Economically. In, by a million miles. Security. In, for the most part. Immigration. Completley split. Wrestling with it a great deal. Economically. In, by a million miles. Security. In, for the most part. Immigration. Completley split. Wrestling with it a great deal. Sovereignty issues. Out. By a long way. So on balance, I'm voting in. (Ask me again next week though) What amazes me the most is the number of people, including the most vocal of those in here, who have made up their minds that everything about one side or other is good or bad. How can people not see that there are pros and cons both ways?" if i take the 4 major things you have brought up.... Economically. In, by a million miles.i'll add to this its a bit like turkeys voting for xmas... Security. In, for the most part. i don't think this is a big part, i just think collective sharing of info via europol, and the EAW and extridition laws help.... Immigration.... the out side are making an issue out of something that isn't one.... as for the majority of people that come here don't take benefit.. and pay taxes like everyone else... plus anyone new coming here won't be able to claim anything under the renegoiation till 2024 at least unless they have been here for at least 4 years... illegal immigration is still illegal... Sovereignty issues..... 97% if uk law was already EU law, it is very very rare for the ECHR to turn over a judgement in the british supreme court.....(98% of judgements go the uk's way, we only here about the big one that don't) its overblown that everything is directed down from brussels.... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So I'm going to be voting to stay within the EU in the upcoming referendum. As with a most complicated decisions their are a lot of factors making up my decision but my No.1 is Security. At the end of WWII Europe was a continent that had been at war with its self for hundred of years. The great grandfather of the EU was the European Steal and Coal Community. One of the stated aims of the ESCC was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". By tying the economies of the major European countries together war would become impossible. Look at the peace there is in Europe between the major powers today. This peace in Europe was unheard of before the ESCC and then the EEC, EU etc. Without peace, there can be no prosperity. So what is your No.1 reason for wanting to stay? The economy? Defence & Security? Free movement of sexy people that you have fallen in love with? Sexy people that you want to play with? Scientific research and academic funding?" We only won the last war because we are an Island without the English Channel the Germans would have walked into Britain and won hands down. Something to think about before you make your mind up, just saying.  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" The EU (and its predecessors) have been fantastic in getting rid of the causes of aggression between nation states in Europe. Without that threat of aggression countries are now working together, rather than fighting. So I think we owe a lot for that. And NATO have done nothing to achieve this? it is possible for two organisations to have both contributed to the same achievement. Anyone would think that the EU have achieved this all on their own, given some of the statements being made over the last few weeks. I would credit NATO as being mainly responsible for this." It's pretty much the same thing isn't it? Given that 22 of NATOs 28 members are EU countries and 2 of the other 6 want to be in the EU. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Are you really that pompous to say you are better informed? Read what I wrote. I consider myself one of the better informed on this issue, yes. As in better informed than most that I encounter who express an opinion. I started off by spending several hours looking at how the EU is organised, its governance, its electoral college and its stated aims. Then I looked at the figures - another several hours. Then I listened to several hours of argument and counter argument from protagonists from both sides. All in all, I estimate I've spent around 40 hours or more, researching and analysing available information and arguments. I doubt many can say the same. It's an important decision that requires serious investigation and analysis. Are you so pompous as to start trading petty insults, knowing nothing of what I know or have done to ensure that I am as informed as I can be? But you think you know more about the economy than the chancellor, the IMF, the OECD, 8 former US Treasury Secretaries and 9 out of 10 UK economists? Do you think you know more about defence than the heads of NATO, the chiefs of defence staff? Do you think you know more about security than the heads of MI5 and MI6, the last 40 years worth of CIA chiefs, NSA Advisors and US Secretary of States? Do you think you know more about the inpact on research and academia than Robert Winston, Stephen Hawking, and more than 150 fellows of the Royal Society? Do you think you know more about global business than the heads of Coca-Cola, RBS, Caterpillar, Unilever, EasyJet and HSBC? Because if you do, and you are a world leading expert in all of these diverse fields, then you must be a very accomplished, and impressive human being. I'm not listening to friends down the pub, or what a journalist writes, I'm listening to experts in their fields. People who are at the very top of their game and know what they are talking about. Do you really think that all of these experts have come to the same conclusion and that they are wrong? " And for each of these eminent experts who advocate staying, there is an equal number of equally eminent experts who advocate the opposite. I really can't be bothered to list them all. Suffice it to say that similar arguments were put forward by similar experts for joining the Euro - thank fuck we didn't listen, though if we remain in the EU, joining the Euro becomes an eventual inevitability, regardless of our current opt out. No, I'm not saying I know more about the specifics and intricacies of those in particular fields, but I have listened to arguments from proponents and opponents in all of these areas - have you? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Put the light on and get out sorry what your last meet said to you is not relevant to this thread " LOL. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Are you really that pompous to say you are better informed? Read what I wrote. I consider myself one of the better informed on this issue, yes. As in better informed than most that I encounter who express an opinion. I started off by spending several hours looking at how the EU is organised, its governance, its electoral college and its stated aims. Then I looked at the figures - another several hours. Then I listened to several hours of argument and counter argument from protagonists from both sides. All in all, I estimate I've spent around 40 hours or more, researching and analysing available information and arguments. I doubt many can say the same. It's an important decision that requires serious investigation and analysis. Are you so pompous as to start trading petty insults, knowing nothing of what I know or have done to ensure that I am as informed as I can be? yes you are pompous as a few several hours would suggest!" In the last 500 years Europe has been a bit of a cluster fuck when it comes to blood shed. We have arrived at a point when Europe is at peace (for the most part) and member states cannot take up arms against another. Given that single fact I am a committed European and celebrate that most sensible and fair minded people see the value in a united and peaceful Europe. As a reserved position if Boris Johnson, Nigel Farrage and Donald Trump are against it then as night follows day I am for it! To form that opinion took a life time which is considerably more than several hours. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" yes you are pompous as a few several hours would suggest!" Eh? That doesn't even make sense. So often on these threads, it's the remainians who are the first to start with the petty insults. Hardly a cogent argument. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" yes you are pompous as a few several hours would suggest! Eh? That doesn't even make sense. So often on these threads, it's the remainians who are the first to start with the petty insults. Hardly a cogent argument." My opinion is as stated above | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" yes you are pompous as a few several hours would suggest! Eh? That doesn't even make sense. So often on these threads, it's the remainians who are the first to start with the petty insults. Hardly a cogent argument." those remainians bloody asylum seekers! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Are you really that pompous to say you are better informed? Read what I wrote. I consider myself one of the better informed on this issue, yes. As in better informed than most that I encounter who express an opinion. I started off by spending several hours looking at how the EU is organised, its governance, its electoral college and its stated aims. Then I looked at the figures - another several hours. Then I listened to several hours of argument and counter argument from protagonists from both sides. All in all, I estimate I've spent around 40 hours or more, researching and analysing available information and arguments. I doubt many can say the same. It's an important decision that requires serious investigation and analysis. Are you so pompous as to start trading petty insults, knowing nothing of what I know or have done to ensure that I am as informed as I can be? But you think you know more about the economy than the chancellor, the IMF, the OECD, 8 former US Treasury Secretaries and 9 out of 10 UK economists? Do you think you know more about defence than the heads of NATO, the chiefs of defence staff? Do you think you know more about security than the heads of MI5 and MI6, the last 40 years worth of CIA chiefs, NSA Advisors and US Secretary of States? Do you think you know more about the inpact on research and academia than Robert Winston, Stephen Hawking, and more than 150 fellows of the Royal Society? Do you think you know more about global business than the heads of Coca-Cola, RBS, Caterpillar, Unilever, EasyJet and HSBC? Because if you do, and you are a world leading expert in all of these diverse fields, then you must be a very accomplished, and impressive human being. I'm not listening to friends down the pub, or what a journalist writes, I'm listening to experts in their fields. People who are at the very top of their game and know what they are talking about. Do you really think that all of these experts have come to the same conclusion and that they are wrong? And for each of these eminent experts who advocate staying, there is an equal number of equally eminent experts who advocate the opposite. I really can't be bothered to list them all. Suffice it to say that similar arguments were put forward by similar experts for joining the Euro - thank fuck we didn't listen, though if we remain in the EU, joining the Euro becomes an eventual inevitability, regardless of our current opt out. No, I'm not saying I know more about the specifics and intricacies of those in particular fields, but I have listened to arguments from proponents and opponents in all of these areas - have you?" Oh dear. Where to start? If you think it's an equal number of experts on both sides, your maths might need a bit of brushing up. It shows that you can't be bothered to listen to then all. Much easier just to listen to the ones who agree with your preconceived opinion? Has the OP listened to both sides? Why don't you read his original post. I think you'll find a clue... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Oh dear. Where to start? If you think it's an equal number of experts on both sides, your maths might need a bit of brushing up. It shows that you can't be bothered to listen to then all. Much easier just to listen to the ones who agree with your preconceived opinion? Has the OP listened to both sides? Why don't you read his original post. I think you'll find a clue..." I haven't gone round and counted them all obviously. However, take each of the areas, Business, Defence, Economy etc. Broadly speaking, there are as many eminent, experienced and respected advocates of both sides of the argument, from each of these areas. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest it's you who is guilty of selective listening. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I've had family members fight and die in two world wars along with millions of others to stop Germany conquering Europe and they would turn in their graves to think people would now make their sacrifice pointless by surrendering at the stroke of a pen. " Turn in their graves that we would exit the EU and leave it all to German domination. Yes, I agree they would. As would generations who fought in Europe before them | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Oh dear. Where to start? If you think it's an equal number of experts on both sides, your maths might need a bit of brushing up. It shows that you can't be bothered to listen to then all. Much easier just to listen to the ones who agree with your preconceived opinion? Has the OP listened to both sides? Why don't you read his original post. I think you'll find a clue... I haven't gone round and counted them all obviously. However, take each of the areas, Business, Defence, Economy etc. Broadly speaking, there are as many eminent, experienced and respected advocates of both sides of the argument, from each of these areas. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest it's you who is guilty of selective listening." Well, you obviously think Trump, Putin and Le Pen are equal in numbers to the leaders of NATO, the OECD including the heads of Canada and Australia. The rest, well I'll leave that to other readers to judge. I'll just say that there are some good maths courses on line if you need them! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Oh dear. Where to start? If you think it's an equal number of experts on both sides, your maths might need a bit of brushing up. It shows that you can't be bothered to listen to then all. Much easier just to listen to the ones who agree with your preconceived opinion? Has the OP listened to both sides? Why don't you read his original post. I think you'll find a clue... I haven't gone round and counted them all obviously. However, take each of the areas, Business, Defence, Economy etc. Broadly speaking, there are as many eminent, experienced and respected advocates of both sides of the argument, from each of these areas. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest it's you who is guilty of selective listening. Well, you obviously think Trump, Putin and Le Pen are equal in numbers to the leaders of NATO, the OECD including the heads of Canada and Australia. The rest, well I'll leave that to other readers to judge. I'll just say that there are some good maths courses on line if you need them!" Well done, so you've cherry picked 3 names. Not all leaders of NATO think the same, nor do all leaders of the OECD. Anyhow, I'll make a prediction. The vote will go the way that Murdoch tells Sun readers to vote. So most of this is academic. Every general election and referendum (and I remember the last EU referendum though was too young to vote), has gone the way Murdoch wanted. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You need to register to vote on 23 May. What a pallaver!" If you are already on the voters register then you don't have to repeat the process again. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Oh dear. Where to start? If you think it's an equal number of experts on both sides, your maths might need a bit of brushing up. It shows that you can't be bothered to listen to then all. Much easier just to listen to the ones who agree with your preconceived opinion? Has the OP listened to both sides? Why don't you read his original post. I think you'll find a clue... I haven't gone round and counted them all obviously. However, take each of the areas, Business, Defence, Economy etc. Broadly speaking, there are as many eminent, experienced and respected advocates of both sides of the argument, from each of these areas. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest it's you who is guilty of selective listening." There aren't an equal number of experts supporting Brexit. Which organisation like the IMF supports Brexit? There is not other organsiation like the IMF. Which organisation like NATO supports Brexit? Again, no like organisation to support Brexit. Which security service like MI6 or MI5 supports Brexit? As you can see from the article below, 90% of economists support staying in. Not 50%, 90%. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-nine-out-of-ten-economists-say-brexit-will-damage-economy-a6898886.html | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So I'm going to be voting to stay within the EU in the upcoming referendum. As with a most complicated decisions their are a lot of factors making up my decision but my No.1 is Security. At the end of WWII Europe was a continent that had been at war with its self for hundred of years. The great grandfather of the EU was the European Steal and Coal Community. One of the stated aims of the ESCC was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". By tying the economies of the major European countries together war would become impossible. Look at the peace there is in Europe between the major powers today. This peace in Europe was unheard of before the ESCC and then the EEC, EU etc. Without peace, there can be no prosperity. So what is your No.1 reason for wanting to stay? The economy? Defence & Security? Free movement of sexy people that you have fallen in love with? Sexy people that you want to play with? Scientific research and academic funding?" Mainly, you're better the devil you know. There's a lot of scaremongering and if this then that flying about but no one really knows. I'm very happy being in the EU, it was built, like you say, to bring peace. I don't want to leave, it's been fine for this long and will continue to stay fine when all this silly nonsense goes away and we're all still part of it! Personally I think all the world leaders should join hands and we should all help each other out! We're all in it together aren't we? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Oh dear. Where to start? If you think it's an equal number of experts on both sides, your maths might need a bit of brushing up. It shows that you can't be bothered to listen to then all. Much easier just to listen to the ones who agree with your preconceived opinion? Has the OP listened to both sides? Why don't you read his original post. I think you'll find a clue... I haven't gone round and counted them all obviously. However, take each of the areas, Business, Defence, Economy etc. Broadly speaking, there are as many eminent, experienced and respected advocates of both sides of the argument, from each of these areas. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest it's you who is guilty of selective listening. Well, you obviously think Trump, Putin and Le Pen are equal in numbers to the leaders of NATO, the OECD including the heads of Canada and Australia. The rest, well I'll leave that to other readers to judge. I'll just say that there are some good maths courses on line if you need them! Well done, so you've cherry picked 3 names. Not all leaders of NATO think the same, nor do all leaders of the OECD. Anyhow, I'll make a prediction. The vote will go the way that Murdoch tells Sun readers to vote. So most of this is academic. Every general election and referendum (and I remember the last EU referendum though was too young to vote), has gone the way Murdoch wanted." 5 former Secretaries General of NATO have warned against Brexit. Can you name 5 who support it? www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/05/09/letters-at-a-time-of-global-instability-britain-needs-to-stand-u/ | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" The EU (and its predecessors) have been fantastic in getting rid of the causes of aggression between nation states in Europe. Without that threat of aggression countries are now working together, rather than fighting. So I think we owe a lot for that. And NATO have done nothing to achieve this? it is possible for two organisations to have both contributed to the same achievement. Anyone would think that the EU have achieved this all on their own, given some of the statements being made over the last few weeks. I would credit NATO as being mainly responsible for this. It's pretty much the same thing isn't it? Given that 22 of NATOs 28 members are EU countries and 2 of the other 6 want to be in the EU." Not at all, look at the history of NATO and see when it was formed (before the EU). Many of the countries that are now part of the EU were previously part of the Warsaw Pact. They joined NATO before joining the EU. Up until 1973 the EU only had six member states, compared to 15 members of NATO at that time. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Oh dear. Where to start? If you think it's an equal number of experts on both sides, your maths might need a bit of brushing up. It shows that you can't be bothered to listen to then all. Much easier just to listen to the ones who agree with your preconceived opinion? Has the OP listened to both sides? Why don't you read his original post. I think you'll find a clue... I haven't gone round and counted them all obviously. However, take each of the areas, Business, Defence, Economy etc. Broadly speaking, there are as many eminent, experienced and respected advocates of both sides of the argument, from each of these areas. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest it's you who is guilty of selective listening. There aren't an equal number of experts supporting Brexit. Which organisation like the IMF supports Brexit? There is not other organsiation like the IMF. Which organisation like NATO supports Brexit? Again, no like organisation to support Brexit. Which security service like MI6 or MI5 supports Brexit? As you can see from the article below, 90% of economists support staying in. Not 50%, 90%. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-nine-out-of-ten-economists-say-brexit-will-damage-economy-a6898886.html" Haha - good try "An overwhelming majority of economists at British universities believe that the debate around the UK leaving the EU will be damaging both to the value of the pound and the economy as a whole, according to a newly published survey...." So a study of academics found that the debate is cause for concern, whoopie do! Go look at the credentials of the Economists for Brexit. I really can't be arsed to cut and paste off websites all night here - carry on thinking whatever you want. My prediction is, that Murdoch will prevail. Watch which way The Sun goes, that will determine the outcome. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'm in for: 1) My daughter's future 2) Our environment 3) the NHS - nurses, doctors and managers all say Brexit would be a devastating blow 5) Science and medical research - one of the sectors where the UK punches far above it's weight 5) For our economic prosperity 6) Because I don't want our archaic democratic system to allow the neo-liberal nutcases to rule unconstrained and bleed the country dry 7) For UK manufacturing and everyone who works in it 8) For the future of the Union - I love the Scots and would hate to be left in a country without them 9) Because I don't want the UK to be a laughing stock across the world 10) Because I couldn't look at myself in the mirror again if I was ever on the same side as Farage, Boris, IDS, John Redwood or Leon Britten 11) Because I haven't heard much reasoned logic to vote to leave - other than immigration - and I can understand if you don't, but I like our country being so multi-cultural and the opportunities that free movement brings for us all." Brilliant response | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I've had family members fight and die in two world wars along with millions of others to stop Germany conquering Europe and they would turn in their graves to think people would now make their sacrifice pointless by surrendering at the stroke of a pen. " WW2 was not fought to stop Germany ruling the world, it was fought to stop Hitler ruling the world. You can't compare being in the EU to capitulating to Facism. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Well done, so you've cherry picked 3 names. Not all leaders of NATO think the same, nor do all leaders of the OECD." Go on then. Put your money where your mouth is. List all the multitude of NATO and OECD leaders who have come out to support the UK leaving the EU. Or can't you be bothered? While you are at it, you could list ANY respected world leader who has come out to support the UK leaving the EU. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Cameron thinks we can survive outside the EU http://www.nation.co.ke/news/world/Britain-can-survive-outside-the-EU-says-Cameron/-/1068/2950054/-/uyo4ix/-/index.html" Oh, behave. Nobody thinks we can't survive outside the EU. But that's really not what our vote to stay in the EU is about. It's about the fact that a majority of voters realise that we are far better off in the EU, not that we can't survive outside it. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I've had family members fight and die in two world wars along with millions of others to stop Germany conquering Europe and they would turn in their graves to think people would now make their sacrifice pointless by surrendering at the stroke of a pen. WW2 was not fought to stop Germany ruling the world, it was fought to stop Hitler ruling the world. You can't compare being in the EU to capitulating to Facism. " Unless of course your name is Boris 'in the Blunder Bus' Johnson | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Democracy - out Security - out Economy - out Sovereignty - out Immigration - out Judiciary - out The stated aim of the EU is a federal republic, a united states of Europe, with one currency, one legislature, one army, all run by unelected eurocrats. If you vote to stay, that is what you are voting for." | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I had abuse from the pro leaving group earlier today..and they then blocked me !! I couldn't say what I thought if them !!" Maybe they are just practicing their negotiating skills in case of post-Brexit negotiations with the rest of the EU
Their loss though!
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Democracy - out Security - out Economy - out Sovereignty - out Immigration - out Judiciary - out The stated aim of the EU is a federal republic, a united states of Europe, with one currency, one legislature, one army, all run by unelected eurocrats. If you vote to stay, that is what you are voting for." That'll be the stated aim of the EU as written by Nigel Farage then. I'm fairly sure there is no stated aim written by the EU to have everything run by unelected eurocrats. Still, don't let facts get in the way of your prejudice though. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Cameron thinks we can survive outside the EU http://www.nation.co.ke/news/world/Britain-can-survive-outside-the-EU-says-Cameron/-/1068/2950054/-/uyo4ix/-/index.html Oh, behave. Nobody thinks we can't survive outside the EU. But that's really not what our vote to stay in the EU is about. It's about the fact that a majority of voters realise that we are far better off in the EU, not that we can't survive outside it." Majority? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"My No.1 reason for voting in is not to deter the threat of war. Wars are no longer fought with weapons, they are fought with economic sanctions, freezing of public and private assets or trade blocks. My No.1 reason to vote in is that voting out would have a drastic global destabilising consequence. We are a world financial power where voting out would mean markets out of London would be turned upside down overnight. It would then follow that voting out then would mean any number of European countries would follow suit, bringing it back to a state of sovereign nations. The 2nd reason being the Human Rights Act would no longer be in force, leaving our civil rights threadbare or a re-writing of laws that will take years to amend. how come the Deutsche Borse is looking to merge with the London Stock Exchange then? Follow the money and the human rights act is a farce as it is I think you need to look up what the stock market merger would actually involve. ..." do tell please | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Cameron thinks we can survive outside the EU http://www.nation.co.ke/news/world/Britain-can-survive-outside-the-EU-says-Cameron/-/1068/2950054/-/uyo4ix/-/index.html Oh, behave. Nobody thinks we can't survive outside the EU. But that's really not what our vote to stay in the EU is about. It's about the fact that a majority of voters realise that we are far better off in the EU, not that we can't survive outside it. Majority?" Majority | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" The EU (and its predecessors) have been fantastic in getting rid of the causes of aggression between nation states in Europe. Without that threat of aggression countries are now working together, rather than fighting. So I think we owe a lot for that. And NATO have done nothing to achieve this? it is possible for two organisations to have both contributed to the same achievement. Anyone would think that the EU have achieved this all on their own, given some of the statements being made over the last few weeks. I would credit NATO as being mainly responsible for this. It's pretty much the same thing isn't it? Given that 22 of NATOs 28 members are EU countries and 2 of the other 6 want to be in the EU. Not at all, look at the history of NATO and see when it was formed (before the EU). Many of the countries that are now part of the EU were previously part of the Warsaw Pact. They joined NATO before joining the EU. Up until 1973 the EU only had six member states, compared to 15 members of NATO at that time. " As of January 1st 1973 there were 9 EEC states and 8 of them were NATO countries out of a total of 15 (Ireland never joined NATO). The other European countries involved in NATO at that time were Greece and Portugal, which joined the EEC in 1981 and 1986. Spain joined NATO in 1982 and the EEC in 1986, making it 11 out of 16 NATO states being part of the EEC. The other 5 are Turkey (in NATO since 1952), Norway (which behaves more like an EU state then the UK at times), Iceland, the USA and Canada. Since the Treaty of Rome in 1958 at least half the NATO countries have come from the EU or its predecessors and a much higher proportion if you count candidate countries or countries that later joined the community as full members. NATO owes an awful lot to the EU for an era of relative economic stability over the last 40 years and to EU countries for their contribution to the membership of NATO. NATO itself recognises the importance of that relationship in its strategy, freely available on the NATO web site. As you pointed out, with countries that joined the EU and NATO since 1999 the proportion of EU countries in NATO has risen still further. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on " You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people) | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Freedom of movement for me plus could never support bojo or farage two men never to be trusted there just trying to further there political careers ." So you think the likes of Tony (liar and war criminal) Blair, Peter Mandelson, David Cameron and Nick Clegg (who according to President Obama totally fucked up Libya with their military intervention there), Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinnes of Sinn Fein (former IRA terrorists), Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond of the SNP (who wanted to break up the Uk and make Scotland independent on a false oil price) who are all on the remain side are more trustworthy then? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people)" You have just fallen for the line that it makes Britain stronger. It might make us look stronger when they show you figures on a piece of paper but what is Britain exactly? It is its people and it has made its people poorer on the whole, it is just a race to the bottom. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Cameron thinks we can survive outside the EU http://www.nation.co.ke/news/world/Britain-can-survive-outside-the-EU-says-Cameron/-/1068/2950054/-/uyo4ix/-/index.html Oh, behave. Nobody thinks we can't survive outside the EU. But that's really not what our vote to stay in the EU is about. It's about the fact that a majority of voters realise that we are far better off in the EU, not that we can't survive outside it. Majority? Majority" There is not 1 person who knows we will be be better off in the EU. Some think we will be, some think we won't, some aren't sure and some are just afraid to leave the only thing they have ever known. One thing is pretty certain though and that is that staying in the EU will only make things worse than they are now | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Cameron thinks we can survive outside the EU http://www.nation.co.ke/news/world/Britain-can-survive-outside-the-EU-says-Cameron/-/1068/2950054/-/uyo4ix/-/index.html Oh, behave. Nobody thinks we can't survive outside the EU. But that's really not what our vote to stay in the EU is about. It's about the fact that a majority of voters realise that we are far better off in the EU, not that we can't survive outside it. Majority? Majority There is not 1 person who knows we will be be better off in the EU. Some think we will be, some think we won't, some aren't sure and some are just afraid to leave the only thing they have ever known. One thing is pretty certain though and that is that staying in the EU will only make things worse than they are now" That's a Brexit classic. "No-one knows for certain. Except me, I know for certain it will be worse in the EU" Well, thank you for sharing! I'll take that into account when I'm at the ballot box | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Cameron thinks we can survive outside the EU http://www.nation.co.ke/news/world/Britain-can-survive-outside-the-EU-says-Cameron/-/1068/2950054/-/uyo4ix/-/index.html Oh, behave. Nobody thinks we can't survive outside the EU. But that's really not what our vote to stay in the EU is about. It's about the fact that a majority of voters realise that we are far better off in the EU, not that we can't survive outside it. Majority? Majority There is not 1 person who knows we will be be better off in the EU. Some think we will be, some think we won't, some aren't sure and some are just afraid to leave the only thing they have ever known. One thing is pretty certain though and that is that staying in the EU will only make things worse than they are now That's a Brexit classic. "No-one knows for certain. Except me, I know for certain it will be worse in the EU" Well, thank you for sharing! I'll take that into account when I'm at the ballot box "Did I say that? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Great idea for a thread. Without going into any more detail than I have to my thoughts are currently like this: Economically. In, by a million miles. Security. In, for the most part. Immigration. Completley split. Wrestling with it a great deal. Sovereignty issues. Out. By a long way. So on balance, I'm voting in. (Ask me again next week though) What amazes me the most is the number of people, including the most vocal of those in here, who have made up their minds that everything about one side or other is good or bad. How can people not see that there are pros and cons both ways?" I'm an 'undecided'. I can be vocal and I'm intelligent, well educated and aware. I can see pros and cons for both in and out and they all balance each other in one way or another, hence the hesitancy over making a decision. At the moment, the mere fact that the 'politics of fear' have been in place make me think, for no other reason than arm chair stubbornness, to make me vote 'leave'. I hear lots of predictions - including many from people who have made wrongful predictions over and over in the past, so I'm not holding my breath over this one. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out, I don't know what all you seemingly well educated and informed people do for a living, but im a working class London based plumber.. Every building site I attend is run and laboured by immigrants.. You can hardly communicate to a soul in the English language, it's sickening, I am yet to meet another working class person who doesn't say out.. The a & e dept at most hospitals I've been to are flooded with immigrants again.. With staff struggling to even pronounce half of the names of patients, it seems the English people have lost their voice and backbone bending to the will of anyone who says jump.. Would I let my child join the armed forces to protect this nation... Hell no, we're already lost... The government sees the working class as a carpet to wipe its feet on and fleece, this country is an embarrassment.. Just sit down and talk to some o.a.p's their embarrassed of what has become of their nation... Take my post as you will, uninformed, ignorant whatever.. It's not based on statistics or published studies and papers.. It's based on what I see daily and people I have spoken to.. Out all the way it's about time we stood on our own two again and grew some balls and gained some respect for ourselves again." I'm working class and i am voting to stay in. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Democracy - out Security - out Economy - out Sovereignty - out Immigration - out Judiciary - out The stated aim of the EU is a federal republic, a united states of Europe, with one currency, one legislature, one army, all run by unelected eurocrats. If you vote to stay, that is what you are voting for.
"well said DeMontres, another OUT vote here but most already know that | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Out, I don't know what all you seemingly well educated and informed people do for a living, but im a working class London based plumber.. Every building site I attend is run and laboured by immigrants.. You can hardly communicate to a soul in the English language, it's sickening, I am yet to meet another working class person who doesn't say out.. The a & e dept at most hospitals I've been to are flooded with immigrants again.. With staff struggling to even pronounce half of the names of patients, it seems the English people have lost their voice and backbone bending to the will of anyone who says jump.. Would I let my child join the armed forces to protect this nation... Hell no, we're already lost... The government sees the working class as a carpet to wipe its feet on and fleece, this country is an embarrassment.. Just sit down and talk to some o.a.p's their embarrassed of what has become of their nation... Take my post as you will, uninformed, ignorant whatever.. It's not based on statistics or published studies and papers.. It's based on what I see daily and people I have spoken to.. Out all the way it's about time we stood on our own two again and grew some balls and gained some respect for ourselves again." "Take my post as you will" - - - I take it as someone speaking from the heart, someone who has watched a once great nation dwindle away into ruin and dept Vote OUT | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
. But I'm voting to stay in cos otherwise it brings back 'us' and 'them' psychology...I would rather everyone is in it together if that makes sense :-0 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people)" . I really don't like offsetting one group agaist another!. . . Yes older people cost more but so fucking what, they happen to be citizens of a democracy that agreed to look after its citizens in this way decades ago, what an earth has their cost to the government got to do with anything?. Working Immigrants to the UK just like UK immigrants to other countries are not our responsibility on a sovereign basis unless they take up citizenship. "We" get a net gain or loss depending on who's figures you belive of 1% from immigration!. But... Were not shelling out any extra on services for this immigration influx, were squeezing current services ever tighter while asking them to take on the extra, extra people. Now personally I think that's wrong and we should be paying for the extra billions needed for the 7 millionish extra people. Of course they won't do that because in reality it's all about the money and doing that would mean the immigration now becomes a boon like "old retired people"!. . Are there racists people who dislike "foreigners".. Sure, find my a country that hasn't but that's not the same as running something(like unlimited immigration) that has long term consequences and having a genuine concern about it!. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people) You have just fallen for the line that it makes Britain stronger. It might make us look stronger when they show you figures on a piece of paper but what is Britain exactly? It is its people and it has made its people poorer on the whole, it is just a race to the bottom." Im not saying that it makes Britain Stronger, I’m saying that it makes Britain Richer. Two different arguments. I understand the argument (although I might not agree with it) that immigration impacts upon social cohesion, but in terms of money into HM Treasury, EU immigration has had a positive impact. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people) You have just fallen for the line that it makes Britain stronger. It might make us look stronger when they show you figures on a piece of paper but what is Britain exactly? It is its people and it has made its people poorer on the whole, it is just a race to the bottom. Im not saying that it makes Britain Stronger, I’m saying that it makes Britain Richer. Two different arguments. I understand the argument (although I might not agree with it) that immigration impacts upon social cohesion, but in terms of money into HM Treasury, EU immigration has had a positive impact." I have also seen harder working immagrants than our own people. As a nation, we can be particularly lazy in a whole | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"As someone living in Europe my leanings are towards IN. However, as we are now fully integrated in the French system - not an easy feat! We are therefore "protected" to some point although we are exposed to the FX rate. The truth is no one knows what will happen - its all guessing, maybe or could from either side. But talking to other nationalities they have concerns. Insulting comments don't help the cause! If we leave we have to do trade deals - yes we will deal but on what terms? Often quoted we are 5th largest economy - but built on debt. As a country we need to borrow on the markets - if they increase the lending rate to us by less than half a percent that will wipe out the money saved from the EU contribution! We need a French company to build our nuclear power plant and the Chinese to pay for it .... Why?" . Debt is a funny thing, most classical economists don't even take in money or debt as a factor in capitalism, if you ever listen to any of Janet yellens speeches you'll see she uses the word "equilibrium" alot, they think capitalism is inherently stable!. Some other "rebel" economists are now paying debt more attention in its role of lubricating the wheels!. Public debt has never really been the problem..... The problem is private debt | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people) You have just fallen for the line that it makes Britain stronger. It might make us look stronger when they show you figures on a piece of paper but what is Britain exactly? It is its people and it has made its people poorer on the whole, it is just a race to the bottom. Im not saying that it makes Britain Stronger, I’m saying that it makes Britain Richer. Two different arguments. I understand the argument (although I might not agree with it) that immigration impacts upon social cohesion, but in terms of money into HM Treasury, EU immigration has had a positive impact. I have also seen harder working immagrants than our own people. As a nation, we can be particularly lazy in a whole" . . What do you mean by harder working immigrants?. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Sorry it's out for me on this one. To quote "Without peace, there can be no prosperity". I do understand what you mean but my point is for what you said to be factual it would suggest that before the EU was introduced the UK was by definition without peace . The UK is still one of the high players in or out of the EU that's like trying to say that we import to the UK from a global market place I,e the seller so if we vote out then they will sell their export elsewhere I don't think so. Britain is the 5th largest economy in the world, The 4th largest military power, Is a founding member of NATO, A permanent seat holder on the UN Security Council, A member of the G8, And the G20, Has the worlds most widely spoken language, The world's best universities, And has a cracking history of maritime trade and independence. If Britain isn't big enough to compete on the world stage, Who the bloody hell is? That would still be us the USA is not in the EU they are fine trade with who they want so do some other countries. We don't need to spend millions each year into the global pot of which we put in the majority do they show us where that money goes of cuase not we give all that aid to over seas yet we can't keep our old dears warm in the winter. They still show us the atrocities that happen over the world kids still without water where has the millions of pounds donated by our country gone after all these years in the pockets of the politicians and corruption governments. Am voting out." Again I must not have got my point across very clearly. Im not suggesting that the UK didn’t have peace before the EU (and its predecessors), Im saying that the EU, and as others have mentioned NATO, have helped to create stability across Europe. We have gone from a continent at war with is self, to a peaceful continent, working together, trading with each other, who can focus more on economic growth of benefit to all sides, rather than conflict. If a country is at peace, then it and its people can focus on the economy, trade, investment etc. If a country is at war, or in conflict, or preparing for either with another country, then it won’t be as focused on the economy. Look at Syria for example, before the war there would have been UK businesses doing business in Syria and visa versa. Now that will have all stopped, so even a small trading relationship will have an impact on the economy. Now imagine the impact on the UK economy if it looked like France & Germany might go to war with each other. Im not saying that if Britain leaves the EU that France and Germany will go to war. What I am saying is that I think the aim of making wars between member states unimaginable has worked extremely well, and that it would be unwise to throw that away, or to think that even if we break up the union, that war would continue to be unimaginable. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people) You have just fallen for the line that it makes Britain stronger. It might make us look stronger when they show you figures on a piece of paper but what is Britain exactly? It is its people and it has made its people poorer on the whole, it is just a race to the bottom. Im not saying that it makes Britain Stronger, I’m saying that it makes Britain Richer. Two different arguments. I understand the argument (although I might not agree with it) that immigration impacts upon social cohesion, but in terms of money into HM Treasury, EU immigration has had a positive impact." But it makes Britain stronger to what end if the people are getting poorer? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people). I really don't like offsetting one group agaist another!. . . Yes older people cost more but so fucking what, they happen to be citizens of a democracy that agreed to look after its citizens in this way decades ago, what an earth has their cost to the government got to do with anything?. " It does have a big impact, if you split the UK population into 3 very broad life stages you have childhood/education, then working lives, then retirement. In the childhood/education phase of life you don’t pay tax, yet it costs a lot from the country to educate you. In the working life stage, you pay more in taxes than you take out of the system, you are not being educate by government funded teachers, hopefully your healthy and don’t need too many hospital visits or any care etc. You are contributing, and paying to support the other two stages of life. The third stage of life is again expensive for the Treasury, they need to start paying you a pension, you will probably need more medical treatment and care than you have in the other stages of your life, and thats fine because you have worked and paid into the system. So EU immigration falls broadly into the middle section of these three stages, the working life stage, where they are paying more taxes than they are taking out of the system. This helps us to support both the childhood/education phase, as well as the retirement phase. "Working Immigrants to the UK just like UK immigrants to other countries are not our responsibility on a sovereign basis unless they take up citizenship. "We" get a net gain or loss depending on who's figures you belive of 1% from immigration!." So you would rather not have that 1% extra? 1% of the UK economy is an awful lot of money. A lot of good things can be done with an extra 1% "But... Were not shelling out any extra on services for this immigration influx, were squeezing current services ever tighter while asking them to take on the extra, extra people. Now personally I think that's wrong and we should be paying for the extra billions needed for the 7 millionish extra people. Of course they won't do that because in reality it's all about the money and doing that would mean the immigration now becomes a boon like "old retired people"!. . Are there racists people who dislike "foreigners".. Sure, find my a country that hasn't but that's not the same as running something(like unlimited immigration) that has long term consequences and having a genuine concern about it!. " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people) You have just fallen for the line that it makes Britain stronger. It might make us look stronger when they show you figures on a piece of paper but what is Britain exactly? It is its people and it has made its people poorer on the whole, it is just a race to the bottom. Im not saying that it makes Britain Stronger, I’m saying that it makes Britain Richer. Two different arguments. I understand the argument (although I might not agree with it) that immigration impacts upon social cohesion, but in terms of money into HM Treasury, EU immigration has had a positive impact. I have also seen harder working immagrants than our own people. As a nation, we can be particularly lazy in a whole. . What do you mean by harder working immigrants?. " Pole Dancing Clubs need "workers"  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" But it makes Britain stronger to what end if the people are getting poorer?" EU Immigration makes Britain RICHER, not poorer. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" But it makes Britain stronger to what end if the people are getting poorer? EU Immigration makes Britain RICHER, not poorer." Who is Britain? The people are getting poorer aren't they? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people). I really don't like offsetting one group agaist another!. . . Yes older people cost more but so fucking what, they happen to be citizens of a democracy that agreed to look after its citizens in this way decades ago, what an earth has their cost to the government got to do with anything?. It does have a big impact, if you split the UK population into 3 very broad life stages you have childhood/education, then working lives, then retirement. In the childhood/education phase of life you don’t pay tax, yet it costs a lot from the country to educate you. In the working life stage, you pay more in taxes than you take out of the system, you are not being educate by government funded teachers, hopefully your healthy and don’t need too many hospital visits or any care etc. You are contributing, and paying to support the other two stages of life. The third stage of life is again expensive for the Treasury, they need to start paying you a pension, you will probably need more medical treatment and care than you have in the other stages of your life, and thats fine because you have worked and paid into the system. So EU immigration falls broadly into the middle section of these three stages, the working life stage, where they are paying more taxes than they are taking out of the system. This helps us to support both the childhood/education phase, as well as the retirement phase. Working Immigrants to the UK just like UK immigrants to other countries are not our responsibility on a sovereign basis unless they take up citizenship. "We" get a net gain or loss depending on who's figures you belive of 1% from immigration!. So you would rather not have that 1% extra? 1% of the UK economy is an awful lot of money. A lot of good things can be done with an extra 1% But... Were not shelling out any extra on services for this immigration influx, were squeezing current services ever tighter while asking them to take on the extra, extra people. Now personally I think that's wrong and we should be paying for the extra billions needed for the 7 millionish extra people. Of course they won't do that because in reality it's all about the money and doing that would mean the immigration now becomes a boon like "old retired people"!. . Are there racists people who dislike "foreigners".. Sure, find my a country that hasn't but that's not the same as running something(like unlimited immigration) that has long term consequences and having a genuine concern about it!. " . But then you wish to deny children to immigrants then?... And retirement?. Are you going to fuck them off when they get to 60?... The trouble with that capitalist philosophy is it needs gdp growth to keep pace with the "growth" and worse still unlike larger countries we don't have the ability to grow the population exponentially!. The larger question to the problem is why we've failed in our responsibility to lead a sustainable country.... My personal thoughts is that giving politicians an easy solution like the EU to paper over they're failings is why we are where we are. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people). I really don't like offsetting one group agaist another!. . . Yes older people cost more but so fucking what, they happen to be citizens of a democracy that agreed to look after its citizens in this way decades ago, what an earth has their cost to the government got to do with anything?. It does have a big impact, if you split the UK population into 3 very broad life stages you have childhood/education, then working lives, then retirement. In the childhood/education phase of life you don’t pay tax, yet it costs a lot from the country to educate you. In the working life stage, you pay more in taxes than you take out of the system, you are not being educate by government funded teachers, hopefully your healthy and don’t need too many hospital visits or any care etc. You are contributing, and paying to support the other two stages of life. The third stage of life is again expensive for the Treasury, they need to start paying you a pension, you will probably need more medical treatment and care than you have in the other stages of your life, and thats fine because you have worked and paid into the system. So EU immigration falls broadly into the middle section of these three stages, the working life stage, where they are paying more taxes than they are taking out of the system. This helps us to support both the childhood/education phase, as well as the retirement phase. Working Immigrants to the UK just like UK immigrants to other countries are not our responsibility on a sovereign basis unless they take up citizenship. "We" get a net gain or loss depending on who's figures you belive of 1% from immigration!. So you would rather not have that 1% extra? 1% of the UK economy is an awful lot of money. A lot of good things can be done with an extra 1% But... Were not shelling out any extra on services for this immigration influx, were squeezing current services ever tighter while asking them to take on the extra, extra people. Now personally I think that's wrong and we should be paying for the extra billions needed for the 7 millionish extra people. Of course they won't do that because in reality it's all about the money and doing that would mean the immigration now becomes a boon like "old retired people"!. . Are there racists people who dislike "foreigners".. Sure, find my a country that hasn't but that's not the same as running something(like unlimited immigration) that has long term consequences and having a genuine concern about it!. . But then you wish to deny children to immigrants then?... And retirement?. Are you going to fuck them off when they get to 60?... The trouble with that capitalist philosophy is it needs gdp growth to keep pace with the "growth" and worse still unlike larger countries we don't have the ability to grow the population exponentially!. The larger question to the problem is why we've failed in our responsibility to lead a sustainable country.... My personal thoughts is that giving politicians an easy solution like the EU to paper over they're failings is why we are where we are." They don't soley fall into the middle category, but they broadly do, thats why they are net contributors to the UK economy. If they want to exercise their treaty rights then they can come here to work. As it stands at the moment they don't have the right to move here to retire. Its the free movement of labour, not free movement of people. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The amount of money we pay into the eu every year is ridiculous plus the amount of money sent out of the country by immigrants sending money home each month is immense thats money not circulating back into the economy and having more say on the ammount of immigrants allowed in is more then enough reason to vote out of it the only people who have benefited from us being in the eu is all the people who have come over here for nhs and so on You mention about immigrants coming over here benefiting from the NHS. These immigrants actually pay more in taxes than than they receive in benefits from the government for services like the NHS. They are a net contributor to the UK treasury. Britain would be poorer if we didn't have EU migrants. Think about it, one of the most expensive groups of people are retired people. They use a lot of NHS services, they get a lot of benefits like pension credit, attendance allowance, state pensions, winter fuel payments, free TV licenses etc. Well its not immigrants who are using those services, they have the right to WORK in the UK, not just come here and take whichever benefits they want. (im not saying that retired people don't deserve what they get, just that they cost rhe government more than working people). I really don't like offsetting one group agaist another!. . . Yes older people cost more but so fucking what, they happen to be citizens of a democracy that agreed to look after its citizens in this way decades ago, what an earth has their cost to the government got to do with anything?. It does have a big impact, if you split the UK population into 3 very broad life stages you have childhood/education, then working lives, then retirement. In the childhood/education phase of life you don’t pay tax, yet it costs a lot from the country to educate you. In the working life stage, you pay more in taxes than you take out of the system, you are not being educate by government funded teachers, hopefully your healthy and don’t need too many hospital visits or any care etc. You are contributing, and paying to support the other two stages of life. The third stage of life is again expensive for the Treasury, they need to start paying you a pension, you will probably need more medical treatment and care than you have in the other stages of your life, and thats fine because you have worked and paid into the system. So EU immigration falls broadly into the middle section of these three stages, the working life stage, where they are paying more taxes than they are taking out of the system. This helps us to support both the childhood/education phase, as well as the retirement phase. Working Immigrants to the UK just like UK immigrants to other countries are not our responsibility on a sovereign basis unless they take up citizenship. "We" get a net gain or loss depending on who's figures you belive of 1% from immigration!. So you would rather not have that 1% extra? 1% of the UK economy is an awful lot of money. A lot of good things can be done with an extra 1% But... Were not shelling out any extra on services for this immigration influx, were squeezing current services ever tighter while asking them to take on the extra, extra people. Now personally I think that's wrong and we should be paying for the extra billions needed for the 7 millionish extra people. Of course they won't do that because in reality it's all about the money and doing that would mean the immigration now becomes a boon like "old retired people"!. . Are there racists people who dislike "foreigners".. Sure, find my a country that hasn't but that's not the same as running something(like unlimited immigration) that has long term consequences and having a genuine concern about it!. . But then you wish to deny children to immigrants then?... And retirement?. Are you going to fuck them off when they get to 60?... The trouble with that capitalist philosophy is it needs gdp growth to keep pace with the "growth" and worse still unlike larger countries we don't have the ability to grow the population exponentially!. The larger question to the problem is why we've failed in our responsibility to lead a sustainable country.... My personal thoughts is that giving politicians an easy solution like the EU to paper over they're failings is why we are where we are. They don't soley fall into the middle category, but they broadly do, thats why they are net contributors to the UK economy. If they want to exercise their treaty rights then they can come here to work. As it stands at the moment they don't have the right to move here to retire. Its the free movement of labour, not free movement of people." Really? So ok, what impact do you think that this free movement of labour has on the countries that they come from, like Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal? Or do you not think that it matters so long as the UK is getting 'richer'? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" It is not project fear... It is project realism " Or project projection? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" It is not project fear... It is project realism Or project projection?" Or project "haven't got a fucking clue so I'll scare the shit out of everybody anyway" Everything is "could" or "may" or "possible" So he are a few more possibles, maybe's, or what could happen with a vote to stay Britain could be forced to join the Euro. It is possible that Britain will have to sign up to Schengen. Maybe British troops would be forced into an EU army (that one is looking quite likely BTW) Cameron's re negotiation could be torn up the day after the vote (again quite likely) TTIP could spell the end of the NHS (not as far fetched as you think) WW3 could break out because of the EU's meddling in Ukraine. Will any of those things happen? Possibly, maybe, and they could. Exactly the same as project fear from the other side. The only certainty is that nothing is certain whichever way you vote. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Could the uk work outside of the eu... Sure Would the uk be poorer outside of the eu... Most certainly It's really easy to be so staunch is being out when it is not your job potentially on the line.... And let's not pretend there won't be collateral damage because there will be... Its the bit the out side don't want to talk about... And I hope that is the message that is put out I am no fan of ryanair and Michael Leary... But it was that point he made today It is not project fear... It is project realism " I understand your fears but is that the same Michael Leary who described the EU as an evil empire and who cannot decide from one day to the next whether airfares will rise or fall in the event of a brexit? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" It is not project fear... It is project realism Or project projection? Or project "haven't got a fucking clue so I'll scare the shit out of everybody anyway" Everything is "could" or "may" or "possible" So he are a few more possibles, maybe's, or what could happen with a vote to stay Britain could be forced to join the Euro. It is possible that Britain will have to sign up to Schengen. Maybe British troops would be forced into an EU army (that one is looking quite likely BTW) Cameron's re negotiation could be torn up the day after the vote (again quite likely) TTIP could spell the end of the NHS (not as far fetched as you think) WW3 could break out because of the EU's meddling in Ukraine. Will any of those things happen? Possibly, maybe, and they could. Exactly the same as project fear from the other side. The only certainty is that nothing is certain whichever way you vote." given that Britain has a permanent opt out of the euro then no we couldn't be forced to join it any more than we could be forced to do virtually anything on your list. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU struggles through several problems. Firstly it's people are inherently different with huge diversity both culturally and ideologically. Secondly it's never managed to pull it's finger out and be an effectual federal state!. Just like the USA could never cope with 50 different currency's, 50 different treasury's and 50 different languages. . . The EU has to work for everyone in the EU otherwise it's no better than colonialism, it's not working for Greece and never will without proper reform and by that I mean real change, not this bullshit that Johnson and Cameron talk about, restricting Greece to a budget deficit of 3% while not allowing them the ability to devalue, will just lead to long term stagnation" I think it's just a matter of time before the Eurozone goes down the tubes. The former Bank of England governor Sir Mervyn King has said he thinks the Eurozone economy is doomed to failure, just a matter of time. We'd be better off out when it happens. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" It is not project fear... It is project realism Or project projection? Or project "haven't got a fucking clue so I'll scare the shit out of everybody anyway" Everything is "could" or "may" or "possible" So he are a few more possibles, maybe's, or what could happen with a vote to stay Britain could be forced to join the Euro. It is possible that Britain will have to sign up to Schengen. Maybe British troops would be forced into an EU army (that one is looking quite likely BTW) Cameron's re negotiation could be torn up the day after the vote (again quite likely) TTIP could spell the end of the NHS (not as far fetched as you think) WW3 could break out because of the EU's meddling in Ukraine. Will any of those things happen? Possibly, maybe, and they could. Exactly the same as project fear from the other side. The only certainty is that nothing is certain whichever way you vote. given that Britain has a permanent opt out of the euro then no we couldn't be forced to join it any more than we could be forced to do virtually anything on your list. " The EU five presidents report if fully implemented may take our right to veto away. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" It is not project fear... It is project realism Or project projection? Or project "haven't got a fucking clue so I'll scare the shit out of everybody anyway" Everything is "could" or "may" or "possible" So he are a few more possibles, maybe's, or what could happen with a vote to stay Britain could be forced to join the Euro. It is possible that Britain will have to sign up to Schengen. Maybe British troops would be forced into an EU army (that one is looking quite likely BTW) Cameron's re negotiation could be torn up the day after the vote (again quite likely) TTIP could spell the end of the NHS (not as far fetched as you think) WW3 could break out because of the EU's meddling in Ukraine. Will any of those things happen? Possibly, maybe, and they could. Exactly the same as project fear from the other side. The only certainty is that nothing is certain whichever way you vote." | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Surly this is misleading .... TTIP could spell the end of the NHS (not as far fetched as you think)..the thatcher government in the eighties discused major nhs reforms .so in or out any tory government could dismantle the nhs .." The brexiter's chief financial guru Patrick Minford is totally in favour of privatising the NHS without the help of any trade treaty. His economic libertarianism also allows uk manufacturing industry to go to the wall and be swamped by imports from around the world because he believes everyone should be providing "brain work" in the services industries. Good luck with that if you're employed at tata steel, in the car industry or farming to name a few on his hit list. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone concerned about safety/security in Europe might want to consider what Sir Richard Dearlove, former head oe MI6 had to say about the EU today "Could you summarise? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"On the Hole I much prefer it in than out "We know which hole you prefer from your profile pics. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I've just seen Gideon (his real name) Osborne, Ed Balls and Vince Cable all extolling the virtues of staying in the EU. I cannot think of three people less capable of looking after the contents of a child's piggy bank in British politics at this moment in our history " And are you voting to stay in or out? I find it interesting that the Brexiters often say you can't trust the PM or the Chancellor, that their are liars and propagandists not to be trusted, yet these are the people who the Brexiters want to have more power rather than it "being in the hands of Brussels"! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Surly this is misleading .... TTIP could spell the end of the NHS (not as far fetched as you think)..the thatcher government in the eighties discused major nhs reforms .so in or out any tory government could dismantle the nhs .. The brexiter's chief financial guru Patrick Minford is totally in favour of privatising the NHS without the help of any trade treaty. His economic libertarianism also allows uk manufacturing industry to go to the wall and be swamped by imports from around the world because he believes everyone should be providing "brain work" in the services industries. Good luck with that if you're employed at tata steel, in the car industry or farming to name a few on his hit list." Do you think that is the same Patrick Minford, Brexit chief financial guru who wrote in The Sun: "Over time, if we left the EU, it seems likely that we would mostly eliminate manufacturing, leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech. But this shouldn’t scare us" “Around half of young adults now go to university, ending up in professions such as finance or law, while the making of things such as car parts or carpentry has hugely shrunk — but there will always be some jobs for people without sophisticated skills. “Of course leaving the EU will be difficult, and something that needs careful negotiation, but we must completely withdraw to gain these benefits.” | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone concerned about safety/security in Europe might want to consider what Sir Richard Dearlove, former head oe MI6 had to say about the EU today "Everything he said was about immigration into the EU, not between EU nations. Illegal immigration is already illegal, leave the EU wont make it anymore illegal, or less likely to happen. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"People who want to stay are cowards and people who want to leave are racists. That's about what I gathered from all the squabbling on the TV" Me too we can't win | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017Nigel The Ukip leader warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business' Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month. The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot. Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. That's a true democrat at work - if the electorate gets it wrong he'll make us do it again and again and again until we get it right. Now who have we heard whingeing about that in the past? That would be Nigel Farage, wouldn't it? " WOW. Cue fanfare and drum roll. Yes Ladies and gentlemen. That just has to be the greatest "dear pot, signed kettle" moment in the whole history of this forum. Anyone remember the EU constitution? You know. The one that the French and Dutch rejected in a referendum. The one that the Danes were tipped to reject until they cancelled their referendum, and the one that the Irish rejected but then were sent away to vote again until they got the "right answer" I wont take ANY lessons on democracy from the EU. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If it is a choice between Europe or the open sea....I would choose the open sea every time. (That is a quote from Churchill....feel free to google or whatever and check). Yet the remain campaign try to say Churchill would stay in? " Churchill must have been confused then when he said: We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’ That was in 1948 and then he might have been confused again when in 1961 he wrote to his constituency Chairman: ‘I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community..’ | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If it is a choice between Europe or the open sea....I would choose the open sea every time. (That is a quote from Churchill....feel free to google or whatever and check). Yet the remain campaign try to say Churchill would stay in? Churchill must have been confused then when he said: We cannot aim at anything less than the Union of Europe as a whole, and we look forward with confidence to the day when that Union will be achieved.’ That was in 1948 and then he might have been confused again when in 1961 he wrote to his constituency Chairman: ‘I think that the Government are right to apply to join the European Economic Community..’ " And in 1975 I thought we were right to join. How misguided I (and millions of others) was. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017Nigel The Ukip leader warns that a '52-48 result would be unfinished business' Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month. The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot. Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. That's a true democrat at work - if the electorate gets it wrong he'll make us do it again and again and again until we get it right. Now who have we heard whingeing about that in the past? That would be Nigel Farage, wouldn't it? WOW. Cue fanfare and drum roll. Yes Ladies and gentlemen. That just has to be the greatest "dear pot, signed kettle" moment in the whole history of this forum. Anyone remember the EU constitution? You know. The one that the French and Dutch rejected in a referendum. The one that the Danes were tipped to reject until they cancelled their referendum, and the one that the Irish rejected but then were sent away to vote again until they got the "right answer" I wont take ANY lessons on democracy from the EU." Ah you're never one to use a pot full of exaggeration when a pan full of hyperbole and irrelevance could be slopped in to accompany your hypocrisy. I certainly wasn't suggesting that you or anyone else take a lesson from the EU on democracy. Some needs for education are far too much hard work to bother. On the other hand you might expect UK politicians to honour the result of a referendum to show how much better they are at democracy - particularly on the Brexit side where they've been flashing their democratic credentials and consistently moaning about the other side. It's time that Farage manned up and decided whether he's either a democrat or a hypocrite. The real story is of course that he's planning for failure - that seems at variance with the bravado of some of your pals here. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Just been watching newsnight debate. Again it proved nothing either way....but did highlight the £130 million wasted every year shuffling the entire parliament back and forth to Strasbourg every month. Despite the elected parliament and the council of ministers biting to stop this and just stay in Brussels. Why? Because they cannot pass or change such laws without the unelected commission also agreeing....and France veto it every time! Democracy??" It's always struck me that the whole moving parliament thing is a total waste of time, money and energy and it was a positive move when MEPs said they wanted to stop the merry go round. It wasn't the commission that vetoed it - the commission don't have a veto - it was France in the council of ministers. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So I am interest in those who are talking about a European Army, where are you getting this information? I am studying a Masters degree in the field of war studies and have seen nothing to support this idea of an EU run military. With the Army 2020 plans we have the 3rd (UK) Division and 16 Air Assault Brigade, which is able to deploy at short notice for contingency operations for unilateral UK only operations. This is called the Reaction Force. We also have the option to work within the framework of NATO’s new Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (agreed at the 2014 NATO summit in Wales as a response to the threat of Hybrid Warfare from Russia). The UK also has the option of deploying the Joint Expeditionary Force (JEF), a UK lead force comprising of forces from the UK, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands and Norway. Another option is a bilateral arrangement with France called the Combined Joint Expeditionary Force (CJEF). In addition to the Reactive Force, we also have the Adaptive Force which takes the lead in defence engagement around the world who would be instrumental in building any further agreements with other countries is their respective areas of operations. Of these areas, only 160th Infantry Brigade covers Europe (Eastern Europe and Central Asia). So please can you direct me some policy statements about forming an EU military I would love to read them." The head of the EU one Mr Jean Claude Juncker has been very vocal about the formation of an EU army. You won't have to look very hard to find out what he has said on the matter. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I've just seen Gideon (his real name) Osborne, Ed Balls and Vince Cable all extolling the virtues of staying in the EU. I cannot think of three people less capable of looking after the contents of a child's piggy bank in British politics at this moment in our history And are you voting to stay in or out? I find it interesting that the Brexiters often say you can't trust the PM or the Chancellor, that their are liars and propagandists not to be trusted, yet these are the people who the Brexiters want to have more power rather than it "being in the hands of Brussels"! "I would hope in the event of a Leave vote on June 24th David Cameron would do the decent thing and step down as Prime Minister. He is already committed himself to step down before the next general election anyway. As for George Osborne his prospects of becoming next leader of the Conservative party are very slim now which ever way the result of the referendum goes. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Anyone concerned about safety/security in Europe might want to consider what Sir Richard Dearlove, former head oe MI6 had to say about the EU today
Could you summarise?"Sir Richard Dearlove was saying that the EU is failing to get a grip on the migration crisis, and unless it tackles the migration crisis head on and takes control of it there will be a popular uprising of far right parties all over Europe which we are already beginning to see the stirrings of. Now you have to ask yourself after hearing him say that, is the EU something you want to be a part of? Not for me thanks, I'm out. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I've just seen Gideon (his real name) Osborne, Ed Balls and Vince Cable all extolling the virtues of staying in the EU. I cannot think of three people less capable of looking after the contents of a child's piggy bank in British politics at this moment in our history " Edd Balls and Vince Cable now flanking George Osborne. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So I'm going to be voting to stay within the EU in the upcoming referendum. As with a most complicated decisions their are a lot of factors making up my decision but my No.1 is Security. At the end of WWII Europe was a continent that had been at war with its self for hundred of years. The great grandfather of the EU was the European Steal and Coal Community. One of the stated aims of the ESCC was to "make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible". By tying the economies of the major European countries together war would become impossible. Look at the peace there is in Europe between the major powers today. This peace in Europe was unheard of before the ESCC and then the EEC, EU etc. Without peace, there can be no prosperity. So what is your No.1 reason for wanting to stay? The economy? Defence & Security? Free movement of sexy people that you have fallen in love with? Sexy people that you want to play with? Scientific research and academic funding?" Surely the advent of nuclear weapons and the ability for the instant destruction of the other side did more for "peace" in europe. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So I am interest in those who are talking about a European Army, where are you getting this information? I am studying a Masters degree in the field of war studies and have seen nothing to support this idea of an EU run military. With the Army 2020 plans we have the 3rd (UK) Division and 16 Air Assault Brigade, which is able to deploy at short notice for contingency operations for unilateral UK only operations. This is called the Reaction Force. We also have the option to work within the framework of NATO’s new Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (agreed at the 2014 NATO summit in Wales as a response to the threat of Hybrid Warfare from Russia). The UK also has the option of deploying the Joint Expeditionary Force (JEF), a UK lead force comprising of forces from the UK, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands and Norway. Another option is a bilateral arrangement with France called the Combined Joint Expeditionary Force (CJEF). In addition to the Reactive Force, we also have the Adaptive Force which takes the lead in defence engagement around the world who would be instrumental in building any further agreements with other countries is their respective areas of operations. Of these areas, only 160th Infantry Brigade covers Europe (Eastern Europe and Central Asia). So please can you direct me some policy statements about forming an EU military I would love to read them." The EU battle groups? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Battlegroup About 30k troops strong and answering soley to the Eu council. A 30 second google would have found that, which makes me wonder is "war studies" in the same league as "gender studies" when it comes to acedemic merit? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" I work in uk manufacturing. Unfortunately for one of our clients we have become nothing more than a producer of prototypes who once we've done all the hard work send it off to eastern Europe to get it made considerably cheaper. We can't compete with the mas production due to our overheads being so much more. " That's exactly the idea of Patrick Minford, the Brexit economic guru. Wherever another nation has the advantage of being able to manufacture something more cheaply than the uk can, then we should import from them and let our own manufacturing industry die. That's the basis of the libertarian free market economic model he pushes on behalf of Brexit. If you're in the manufacturing sector and planning to vote for Brexit then perhaps turkeys do vote for Christmas | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
