FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Taking hols in term time?

Taking hols in term time?

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

The case of a father who refused to pay a £120 fine for taking his daughter on an unauthorised term-time holiday is due to be heard by the High Court today.

Magistrates had ruled that he had no case to answer as, overall, his daughter had attended school regularly.

But Isle of Wight Council has asked the High Court to clarify whether a seven-day absence amounts to a child failing to attend regularly.

Apparently the ruling will have wider implications - be interesting to see whic way they rule.

Personally - I think it's the holiday companies that need looking at for hiking up prices in school holidays. If they don't do it then parents wouldn't feel the need to go out of school holidays.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *obka3Couple over a year ago

bournemouth

Why not reduce the school holidays by a week during the winter and a week during the summer and then allow parents to take their kids out for one week during school time with certain times such as exam time etc excluded. The holiday companies would have to charge more on non peak weeks if they had to reduce the charge during school holidays, I am sure all holiday businesses would welcome it being spread out over a longer time instead of a crazy few weeks

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

Personally I hope he wins. We always took our children on hols during term-time as it was all we could afford. Apart from strikes and 'snow days' (10 days total one year

) it was generally the only time they were off.

We argued a day spent in the Louvre, or walking around the ruins of an ancient Greek town, were more valuable than a couple of missed lessons.

Even 'family-time' is important in a child's upbringing.

The holiday companies aren't profiteering, it's just supply and demand.

Mr ddc

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

He knows the rules and should pay the price for his crime. I agree holidays are expensive during school holidays but that doesn't give a berson the right to break the rules. He wasn't authorised to take the holiday and knows the implication of that so therefore he is fully liable for his actions and should pay the price. I hope he doesn't win otherwise it just opens it up for everyone to abuse the system and I think he should be made an example of. You can't just break the rules because you always keep your kid in school.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

"Why not reduce the school holidays by a week during the winter and a week during the summer and then allow parents to take their kids out for one week during school time with certain times such as exam time etc excluded. The holiday companies would have to charge more on non peak weeks if they had to reduce the charge during school holidays, I am sure all holiday businesses would welcome it being spread out over a longer time instead of a crazy few weeks"

Because I that short time a lot can be missed. My daughter recently missed only 2 days but some important learning was done I that time and now she is playing catch up. She was really ill but o day 3 went back to school anyway even though she still felt unwell. Her choice as I would have preferred her to take a couple more days. She still isn't too well but she doesn't want to miss anything else.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"He knows the rules and should pay the price for his crime. I agree holidays are expensive during school holidays but that doesn't give a berson the right to break the rules. He wasn't authorised to take the holiday and knows the implication of that so therefore he is fully liable for his actions and should pay the price. I hope he doesn't win otherwise it just opens it up for everyone to abuse the system and I think he should be made an example of. You can't just break the rules because you always keep your kid in school. "

that would be fine if parents could charge for strike days, snow days and countless teacher training days

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

School holidays are stuck in a time warp, I remember back when I was a kid my old mans work would shut down for two weeks last week in July and first week in August, that's rare now, and the price hike for holiday dates in the school holidays is awful.

I think there should be two floating weeks in the year that can be taken at the discretion of the headmaster and parents, but I don't think anyone should have legal action taken against them for a two week holiday, efforts would be better put to improving the prospects of those kids that are not doing so well academically

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"School holidays are stuck in a time warp, I remember back when I was a kid my old mans work would shut down for two weeks last week in July and first week in August, that's rare now, and the price hike for holiday dates in the school holidays is awful.

you're right, scrap the 6 weeks holiday for a start, reduce them to 2 weeks and stagger them around the country and summer months

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

He didn't abuse the system or break any rules - the Magistrates showed that.

His kids are in the top 5% grades, 90+% attendance before and after and more so according to the law there was no breach.

Two things - either the government change the rules for schools (which they've already done once) or they change the rules for the holidays/holiday companies.

Besides - the summer holidays are an antiquated left over from the farming days.

Totally unnecessary and should be removed and spread out across the year.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *lanemikeMan over a year ago

Bolton

I hope he wins....

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *om and JennieCouple over a year ago

Chams or Socials

I'm taking mine out for 1st time this year for last 2 days in July. Eldest is 14, missing a trip to Alton Towers & finishes at lunch on the Friday. He's not missing any lessons at all. He's had a tough year with starting GCSEs & has more to come in Yr 11. He's missed 1 day in 3 years. Permission will be refused due to a blanket ban.

Youngest is 9 & will spend 2 days watching dvd's & taking classroom apart. Permission will probably be granted. Head retires this year.

I'm half tempted not to pay the fine as the authority solicitors that would take the no -payment to Court are my former colleagues so they couldn't deal with me due to a conflict of interest. That would mean external Solicitors at a rate of £150 per hour....

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

"that would be fine if parents could charge for strike days, snow days and countless teacher training days"

It's funny how they always say these will not affect the children's education in the long-term, as they can soon catch up, same with illness, where you get the edict "do not send your child back to school until they have been symptom-free for three days", but a holiday, omg the sky will fall in!

I appreciate it got silly when some parents were taking their children out for three long holidays a year, but the old system of a week or two's flexibility worked fine for our kids.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It depends on how you interpret the "rules."

The law is silent on holidays during term time. It just states that regular attendance is required.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It depends on how you interpret the "rules."

The law is silent on holidays during term time. It just states that regular attendance is required."

Which his child had a 93% attendance.

The point of this is the fact that the IoW council are trying to say that the magistrate had no right to take into account the previous and post attendance ONLY that between the 13-21st April.

So they are trying to bend the rules to suit their own position and the magistrate didn't let them.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's the excessive abuse of "sick" days and holidays that are the problem.

Whilst an attendance figure of 90% may sound high it means that a child has missed four weeks of a 40 week academic year, which is far too much.

In Wales you're not fined for taking holidays in term time, but are supposed to ask the head teacher's permission, in exceptional circumstances.

Friends of ours have already excluded their kids by three weeks already this year extending over Christmas, and now a holiday to Turkey, and will finish early at summer, and no doubt be late back in September.

The eldest is also being asked by the Cadets to attend a Some commemoration, or some such, which will be another three weeks during term time

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think as long as the time they are off doesn't interfere with exams or other important times in the school calendar then it shouldn't matter so much..

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Two floating weeks is a great idea!!

When our eldest was in primary we were told we would be fined if we took her to the USA to visit her grandparents for Thanksgiving. The reason was " we have a large traveller community who mess up our attendance score enough so everyone else needs to strive for 100%"

I would much rather my children leave school with life experiences and memories and take the relevant qualifications when they decide what they want to do as an adult than spend unnecessary hours in a classroom learning nothing because their teacher is off doing plannings and ticking boxes just so they can say they had 100% attendance.

Mrs

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"that would be fine if parents could charge for strike days, snow days and countless teacher training days

I appreciate it got silly when some parents were taking their children out for three long holidays a year, but the old system of a week or two's flexibility worked fine for our kids."

of course it does. We got taken out of school for a week every year in term time by the school so that we could practice with the orchestra because they wanted a decent orchestra. The few of us who took P.E went on a weeks canoeing course in term time, missing other lessons, no harm done.

I think

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I've done it 3 times for my Cubs, a day here or there either at the start or end of the term, I mean the very last/ first days. I guarantee you they didn't miss a thing!!!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"that would be fine if parents could charge for strike days, snow days and countless teacher training days

I appreciate it got silly when some parents were taking their children out for three long holidays a year, but the old system of a week or two's flexibility worked fine for our kids."

My bastard parents sent me to school on even the same day if I started feeling better. We didn't have the 3 day period. I'm jealous.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I've done it 3 times for my Cubs, a day here or there either at the start or end of the term, I mean the very last/ first days. I guarantee you they didn't miss a thing!!! "

Apart from anything else the life skills they learn whilst on holiday more than outweighs a missed last day of term!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *GHertsCouple over a year ago

North Herts

"that would be fine if parents could charge for strike days, snow days and countless teacher training days

I appreciate it got silly when some parents were taking their children out for three long holidays a year, but the old system of a week or two's flexibility worked fine for our kids."

Totally agree .... I don't see how a handful of sick days make any more or less difference to our child's education than a handful of holiday days off does. We don't take the piss (would never take time off during important revision or exams) and try to book holidays right at the end of a school break so there's only a small overlap. Have always informed the school and offered to help in anyway I can to ensure our child catches up without any undue pressure on teachers ... not surprisingly this offer has always been declined, basically because for 2 or 3 days off it's usually unnecessary. The school *knows* which parents don't care and which ones keep their kids off whenever they can't be arsed to get up on time ... but current absence legislation is a catch all which obviously gets conscientious parents too. Last year I had a call from the school after writing with our holiday dates wishing us a happy holiday and all but apologising for the fact that with their hands tied, they had no option but to mark 2 days off as unauthorised.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

that would be fine if parents could charge for strike days, snow days and countless teacher training days"

Snow days are not the same. My yongest daughters school never has had a strike and I do totally disagree with training days during term time considering they get more holiday time than any other profession

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

It depends on how you interpret the "rules."

The law is silent on holidays during term time. It just states that regular attendance is required."

In my oldest daughters school you ate told that no holidays will be authorised during school time and if you take it you will be finned. What is the point in rules when they are not acted upon if broken. In secondary school so much can be missed I just 1 day. 2 weeks of catchup is not good for your child at all.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

"that would be fine if parents could charge for strike days, snow days and countless teacher training days

I appreciate it got silly when some parents were taking their children out for three long holidays a year, but the old system of a week or two's flexibility worked fine for our kids.

2 weeks holiday isn't exactly a handful.

My yongest a few years ago had a weak immune system as was ill a lot catching every bug that was going around. We were issued a warning because she was at 85% attendance. This wasn't even our fault and we had lots of hospital notes and GP records. Now if I ended up being finned through something that was of no fault and completely unavoidable I would refuse to pay it.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *piritsonfabCouple over a year ago

Nottingham

I hope they win. To take this to the high court is ridiculous. Hope all their pupils are well up to scratch and wouldn't have benefitted from the money wasted on this....

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

How about the school reimburse the parents for lost education when schools shut for a light dusting of snow, or teacher training days on a Monday which could of been held on a Saturday?

Or does it only work one way.....

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

"How about the school reimburse the parents for lost education when schools shut for a light dusting of snow, or teacher training days on a Monday which could of been held on a Saturday?

Or does it only work one way....."

My kids school has never been closed for a light dusting of snow lol.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *etter the devil you knowWoman over a year ago

Lyndhurst

I agree and it just teaches kids that they don't have to obey rules.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *litheroevoyeurMan over a year ago

Clitheroe

OK but the teachers can go on strike and disrupt a pupils education or head teachers can close the school because a flake of snow fell sometime in the middle of the night. These disruptions may only be of short duration but multiply them by each pupil affected and the impact is increased.

A dose of flu can last for a week and as long as the absence is not during exam times then in my opinion these hard and fast rules could be relaxed.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's just teaching kids that they don't have to obey rules.

Just do away with schools and let the parents teach their kids. See how they like that.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I agree and it just teaches kids that they don't have to obey rules."

Snap!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm not saying its ok to take your kids out of school but i do think sometimes its a case of double standards

My daugher's school was shut this week as it was used for a voting station

So you can't take your kids out of school not even for a day to go to Alton towers while its not so busy but of all the places that could be used to vote they choose a school and shut it for the day, go figure

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *histler21Man over a year ago

Ipswich

I have just had to pay my daughters fines as she cannot afford to do so. She saved and scrimped to take her boys to Disneyland Paris just before Easter for 4 days. She could never have afforded the prices being charged at Easter. Children are allowed to miss 7 sessions (half days) in a row. The boys were away for 8. Apart from illness - they have 100% attendance and achieving well.

I would argue that no new learning takes place in school the afternoon before Easter and what they did vastly improved their life experiences. Learning doesn't just happen in schools.

In case people didn't know - the fine is levied on both parents. Even though my daughter is a single parent - the father had to pay too. Well, I paid both fines. Fortunately, the youngest child is under the legal minimum age (he's not yet 5) to attend school so no fine was levied on his absence.

I paid the fine even though I believe it to be unjustified in my daughters case. It's just easier that way...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Id never ask my daughter to lie..

But if he had said to the school his kids both have D&V for a few days they couldnt do much about it i guess

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Interesting to see this has been referred to the high court. On the point about the rules then thats fine, however lets recognise this is about a sledgehammer to crack a walnut. Unfortunately those parents who don't help themselves end up with us all been in the same heap. Thankfully I can afford to send mine to an independent school so the life experience education often wins with the head

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

that would be fine if parents could charge for strike days, snow days and countless teacher training days"

Exactly.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

A dose of flu can last for a week and as long as the absence is not during exam times then in my opinion these hard and fast rules could be relaxed."

It isn't about being sick or the odd day. It is a 2 week holiday during term time which can have a huge impact on a child's education. How do you teach kids to respect autority when you can't stick to one simple rule.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

"I'm not saying its ok to take your kids out of school but i do think sometimes its a case of double standards

My daugher's school was shut this week as it was used for a voting station

I think using schools as a voting station is so very wrong. There are plenty of church halls and community centers that should be used instead

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

I would argue that no new learning takes place in school the afternoon before Easter and what they did vastly improved their life experiences. Learning doesn't just happen in schools.

I paid the fine even though I believe it to be unjustified in my daughters case. It's just easier that way...

Doing a double fine is wrong. Your daughter new the consequences of taking this time out as did this man so the fine is rightly given. She should have saved for that too. I personally would not have taken responsibility for paying the second fine but if their dad didn't agree then that is on her. Not that there should be a second fine in the first place

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It depends on how you interpret the "rules."

The law is silent on holidays during term time. It just states that regular attendance is required.

This is the point of the Isle of Wight case in the High Court.

The law states regular attendance is required. English schools interpret that as a general prohibition on term time holidays.

Hopefully, the High Court will provide some guidance (though I suspect it may be limited to the facts of this particular case).

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The High Court has ruled in favour of the father.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

A dose of flu can last for a week and as long as the absence is not during exam times then in my opinion these hard and fast rules could be relaxed.

The law is not clear enough, and as a result LEA are making it up as they go along...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

"The High Court has ruled in favour of the father."

Well that is good for him but now that leaves it open for other parents that paid the fine to sue and claim back which is exactly what I would do.

How are kids meant to respect rules if they are open to abuse

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *etter the devil you knowWoman over a year ago

Lyndhurst

"The High Court has ruled in favour of the father.

Well that is good for him but now that leaves it open for other parents that paid the fine to sue and claim back which is exactly what I would do.

How are kids meant to respect rules if they are open to abuse"

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

A dose of flu can last for a week and as long as the absence is not during exam times then in my opinion these hard and fast rules could be relaxed.

The law is not clear enough, and as a result LEA are making it up as they go along...

Yes this is true so it should be a straight out no holidays during term time end of. Especially at secondary school level when each day is so different to the last and catch up is harder.

When the rule came into order I thought it was aimed at kids who's families make a habit of this or those that skip school.

I thought it a great idea to help prevent this and it has to a certain extent.

My daughter had a good idea when fines were issued to parents of kids that regularly skipped school. She said the kids should be made to except responsibility for their actions and be made to do community service. Even tagging get these kids so they can be found and brought back to school to work in isolation.

Not bad ideas from a child

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *mojeeCouple over a year ago

Dunfermline

Due to my work I am given my holiday dates at the beginning of November and they aren't negotiable. If work say my summer hols are the first 2 weeks in June then that's when they are. The kids will be coming out if school regardless as I can't help it. Am I not allowed to have a holiday just because my dates don't fit with school??? Obviously when it's time for exams etc then it'll be different but for now they won't be missing much.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I take my son out but only during health week when they do nothing academic anyways so he isn't missing anything.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *etter the devil you knowWoman over a year ago

Lyndhurst

If you cant afford to take your kids on holiday in the school holidays, then you just don't go or, wait until you can afford to.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *obka3Couple over a year ago

bournemouth

"The High Court has ruled in favour of the father.

Well that is good for him but now that leaves it open for other parents that paid the fine to sue and claim back which is exactly what I would do.

How are kids meant to respect rules if they are open to abuse"

But is it the schools who have broken the law by fining parents whose kids have had "regular" attendance ? That is what the law states and was the basis of the case, councils will now have to rethink how they apply this. Taking a week out once a year as compared to those kids who miss days most weeks are very different, what most people dont realise is that if a parent says I am taking my kids out to self educate them their is nothing the school can do, the law states that all children must be educated not how that is achieved

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

"Due to my work I am given my holiday dates at the beginning of November and they aren't negotiable. If work say my summer hols are the first 2 weeks in June then that's when they are. The kids will be coming out if school regardless as I can't help it. Am I not allowed to have a holiday just because my dates don't fit with school??? Obviously when it's time for exams etc then it'll be different but for now they won't be missing much. "

So why pull the kids out if you won't pull yourself out. That is no excuse to be honest.

If it bothers you that much to have a holiday then get another job. I haven't taken my kids away for 5 years because of costs. They don't feel they are left out or missing out on something. We do lots during holidays that are free and plenty of quality family time

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adyGardenWoman over a year ago

LONDON (se)

"If you cant afford to take your kids on holiday in the school holidays, then you just don't go or, wait until you can afford to.

Exactly

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The High Court has ruled in favour of the father.

Well that is good for him but now that leaves it open for other parents that paid the fine to sue and claim back which is exactly what I would do.

How are kids meant to respect rules if they are open to abuse"

The problem is that education authorities and schools took it upon themselves to enforce a blanket ban rule when it did not comply with the law.

I can see that a blanket ban might be beneficial (although I can also see counter arguments).

What they should have done is lobbied for a change in the law.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *etter the devil you knowWoman over a year ago

Lyndhurst

So why pull the kids out if you won't pull yourself out. That is no excuse to be honest.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ll 4 herCouple over a year ago

Bury/Bolton

We would agree with this if the money generated from the fines was used to pay for teachers to come into school during none term time and catch up the with the kids that missed out by being taken out in term time.

This would show real evidence that children's education was the paramount concern.

As it is it just appears as a cash cow and maintains the revenue stream.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well he's won his case on the High Court so that shuts up the haterz

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The High Court has ruled in favour of the father."

Good news

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Common sense prevails in the high court

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

"The High Court has ruled in favour of the father."

Ahhhh. A sensible decision.

It just goes to show that the British system of justice works at least as well as that "I read something on t'internet - lynch him!" method.

Mr ddc

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

they are now 'debating' it on the jezza vine show on bbc2

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I wonder now if they will bring back some discretion for Head Teachers.

Must have cost a fortune for the court case to be brought to the High Court.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I wonder now if they will bring back some discretion for Head Teachers.

Must have cost a fortune for the court case to be brought to the High Court. "

the headteachers here have all the discretion (plus no fines in wales)....if they say no it doesn't happen....

but parents get round it by calling in sick on behalf of their kids

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *om and JennieCouple over a year ago

Chams or Socials

The Council can still appeal to The Supreme Court.

It will cost a fortune but it's an important piece of case law as setting a precedent.

I will be keeping an eye out with interest!!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The Council can still appeal to The Supreme Court.

It will cost a fortune but it's an important piece of case law as setting a precedent.

I will be keeping an eye out with interest!!"

Hardly worth it as the Department of Education has already announced that it will be looking into changing the law.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Common sense prevails in the high court

Families come before arbitrary rules

Fuck the council

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The case of a father who refused to pay a £120 fine for taking his daughter on an unauthorised term-time holiday is due to be heard by the High Court today.

Magistrates had ruled that he had no case to answer as, overall, his daughter had attended school regularly.

But Isle of Wight Council has asked the High Court to clarify whether a seven-day absence amounts to a child failing to attend regularly.

Apparently the ruling will have wider implications - be interesting to see whic way they rule.

Personally - I think it's the holiday companies that need looking at for hiking up prices in school holidays. If they don't do it then parents wouldn't feel the need to go out of school holidays. "

My ex is in cyprus with my kids this week, the school said a week was ok?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Common sense prevails in the high court

Families come before arbitrary rules

Fuck the council "
.

That's the spirit!!.

We'll soon make an anarchist out of yer yet

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Common sense prevails in the high court

Families come before arbitrary rules

Fuck the council .

That's the spirit!!.

We'll soon make an anarchist out of yer yet

Ha ha it's an issue whether conservatives (pro family) and anarchists (anti rules) can agree.

I spent the vast majority of my Non-GCsE schools years completely zoned out to the extent I may as well not have attended. Still got a masters at the end, as if one week in 5 years of secondary school makes a damn bit of difference.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *obwithkiltMan over a year ago

Belton

When my daughters were younger we took them out of school for a week when the eldest was supposed to be on an adventure week. ..she didn't want to go, would have been in a lower year group learning nothing. ..we took them to London and did natural history, science museum tate galleries and terracotta warriors exhibition. ..my youngest was let out as long as she did a presentation on what she had seen and did....she loved it. ..Head was also jealous as he couldn't get tickets for exhibition! At the time I worked in retail in a tourist location. ..holidays had to be taken term time. ..when we could afford to go anywhere!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

luckily my kids get taught the same things over and over again because there isn't that much to learn with a basic uK education, so missing out school time won't affect them.

hope he wins as well, don't see why being poor and treating yourself is a crime.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

He won. Quite right

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *om and JennieCouple over a year ago

Chams or Socials

"The Council can still appeal to The Supreme Court.

It will cost a fortune but it's an important piece of case law as setting a precedent.

I will be keeping an eye out with interest!!

Hardly worth it as the Department of Education has already announced that it will be looking into changing the law."

Because it's an easier option for them.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *athnBobCouple over a year ago

sandwell

Are you aware that your kids have to do exactly the same number of days in school as you did and your parents did? Teacher training days were taken off the summer holidays (of kids and teachers both. Google "Baker days"

The increase in snow days is a direct result of parents litigation due to injuries in the playground.

If a whole class is given a day off it has no great impact on them, the whole class just pick up where they left off next lesson. On the other hand if just one pupil misses 2 weeks of lessons they can be left way behind after 5-6 weeks as they may have missed vital information/skills at the start.

Splitting holidays up around the country would be a nightmare. It is all too common (especially in built up areas) for siblings to go to schools in different eduction authorities areas. If they set different dates you could potentially double the number of days parents have to take off work to look after children.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The Council can still appeal to The Supreme Court.

It will cost a fortune but it's an important piece of case law as setting a precedent.

I will be keeping an eye out with interest!!

Hardly worth it as the Department of Education has already announced that it will be looking into changing the law.

Because it's an easier option for them."

It may not be. Judging by the responses here, it is a controversial subject. I'm not sure how many MPs will want to be associated with a blanket ban.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

you don't have to have your kids in school anyway, it's not the law. so long as they get an education you can hoe teach them.

if schools start forcing more things onto parents and students i reckon more people will take their kids out for good. maybe not a substantial amount but there was a strike last month where parents got proactive about stuff and they can do it again, regularly if they have to.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

ffs. home tech them not hoe teach.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

home teach...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *om and JennieCouple over a year ago

Chams or Socials

"home teach...

Good god no!!! I love my 2 but couldn't spend 24 hours a day with them!! Plus I couldn't afford to do it. And it's too hard!!!!!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"home teach...

Good god no!!! I love my 2 but couldn't spend 24 hours a day with them!! Plus I couldn't afford to do it. And it's too hard!!!!!

fair enough. i've got support from clever people so it's not too bad for me.

i have to teach my oldest son some stuff anyway because he's not learning everything he wants to know at school.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Are you aware that your kids have to do exactly the same number of days in school as you did and your parents did? Teacher training days were taken off the summer holidays (of kids and teachers both. Google "Baker days"

The increase in snow days is a direct result of parents litigation due to injuries in the playground.

teacher training days were taken off the summer holidays? Ahh poor things.

what other profession, well apart from footballer, has a quarter of the year off?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It depends on how you interpret the "rules."

The law is silent on holidays during term time. It just states that regular attendance is required.

My parents took me out for 2 weeks every year and it had no detrimental affect on my education whatsoever.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *om and JennieCouple over a year ago

Chams or Socials

The increase in snow days is a direct result of parents litigation due to injuries in the playground.

teacher training days were taken off the summer holidays? Ahh poor things.

what other profession, well apart from footballer, has a quarter of the year off?

I have lots of friends who are teachers - they work a lot during the holidays. I've even helped 1 out collating papers just so I could see her.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

Holiday firms are to blame. It's disgraceful profiteering.

Also teachers have families and don't get to choose when they take hols so also get hit.

As long as it's only a week before the end of term I doubt it would have much impact. However two weeks or more might do.

That said schools cannot be blamed as this particular edict comes from the very top and schools HAVE to enforce it.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Result!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

One final argument could be :

Which is more important? A cheap holiday or a child's education?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One final argument could be :

Which is more important? A cheap holiday or a child's education? "

An affordable holiday they are never cheap x

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

By the way good attendance is counted as 95% or higher. Anything less is considered a concern and it's one thing Ofsted look at.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"One final argument could be :

Which is more important? A cheap holiday or a child's education? "

family overall is important and what they want together is important. fuck what the system wants, it should be there to support families and their needs.

nobody who takes one or two weeks off school is neglecting their childs education at all.

my kids had a head start before they went to school because i cared that they didn't grow up to be stupid or slow. genetically they are able to be intelligent also.

less money means less choices, always has done. if the system cared that all parents don't take their kids out of school for holidays then give them the means to remain in school and not be penalised by a system that doesn't pay everyone equally so that these families can have equal choices.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

The increase in snow days is a direct result of parents litigation due to injuries in the playground.

teacher training days were taken off the summer holidays? Ahh poor things.

what other profession, well apart from footballer, has a quarter of the year off?

I have lots of friends who are teachers - they work a lot during the holidays. I've even helped 1 out collating papers just so I could see her. "

Myth buster: teachers are NOT paid for holidays. Any work they do at home during that time is unpaid.

Teachers are contracted to work 195 days or 1265 hours of 'directed time'. It is impossible to do that job in that time. Therefore, much of their work is unpaid. Students are required to attend 190 days per year.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"By the way good attendance is counted as 95% or higher. Anything less is considered a concern and it's one thing Ofsted look at."

Well, almost. The Dept of Education guidelines define regular attendance as 90%. That does not make it law. Their guidelines also state that holidays should not be taken in term time and the High Court has stuck up two fingers to that one.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"By the way good attendance is counted as 95% or higher. Anything less is considered a concern and it's one thing Ofsted look at.

Regular yes but not considered good.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Ahh poor things.

what other profession, well apart from footballer, has a quarter of the year off?

I am guessing that you have little awareness of a teacher's work load.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

wonder how many holidays a year politicians take off and if they take advantage of cheaper holidays? someone needs to look into that, not me coz i cba.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If a 7 day absence is deemed detrimental to a child's learning, then surely 6 weeks in one go over the summer is far worse????

Anyhoo, he won

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well done him for beating them at the high court.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"If a 7 day absence is deemed detrimental to a child's learning, then surely 6 weeks in one go over the summer is far worse????

Anyhoo, he won "

So you think children should be in school throughout the summer?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

"I have lots of friends who are teachers - they work a lot during the holidays. I've even helped 1 out collating papers just so I could see her. "

Maybe, but I was under the impression this, along with much of what they do in the second-half of this term, is technically moonlighting, mainly marking GCSE and A level papers for extra pay.

Put it this way, in our school, as of today, 3 out of the 5 years are on study leave, meaning 60% of lessons are now free periods for the teachers. For those teachers who only teach 6th form, they have no more lessons this term.

How hard is it again?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *etter the devil you knowWoman over a year ago

Lyndhurst

"One final argument could be :

Which is more important? A cheap holiday or a child's education? "

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I have lots of friends who are teachers - they work a lot during the holidays. I've even helped 1 out collating papers just so I could see her.

Maybe, but I was under the impression this, along with much of what they do in the second-half of this term, is technically moonlighting, mainly marking GCSE and A level papers for extra pay.

How hard is it again?"

My mother was a teacher. Most of her evenings were spent marking, completing documentation and preparing for the next day (Lord, does anyone remember those clock ink stamps?)

As a teenager, I was in bed before her. She frequently worked until one in the morning. When I say frequently, I mean every weekday evening.

How hard is it again?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

"I have lots of friends who are teachers - they work a lot during the holidays. I've even helped 1 out collating papers just so I could see her.

Maybe, but I was under the impression this, along with much of what they do in the second-half of this term, is technically moonlighting, mainly marking GCSE and A level papers for extra pay.

How hard is it again?

My mother was a teacher. Most of her evenings were spent marking, completing documentation and preparing for the next day (Lord, does anyone remember those clock ink stamps?)

As a teenager, I was in bed before her. She frequently worked until one in the morning. When I say frequently, I mean every weekday evening.

How hard is it again?"

That was your mother's generation. That is not how it is done nowadays, I can assure you.

The advent of computers has meant even lesson preparation is only a click away...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"I have lots of friends who are teachers - they work a lot during the holidays. I've even helped 1 out collating papers just so I could see her.

Maybe, but I was under the impression this, along with much of what they do in the second-half of this term, is technically moonlighting, mainly marking GCSE and A level papers for extra pay.

How hard is it again?"

There is no longer any study leave. Teachers do not have the time to do moonlighting. They work at pretty much full pelt to the end of the year. Exam boards are always crying out for markers because of the drop in teacher numbers taking it up. Once year 11 leave they use any additional time to rewrite schemes of work ready for the next academic year.

I don't know where you have got these ideas but this is NOT the picture for primary or secondary schools.

I do not know about 6th form colleges. Many schools now no longer have 6th forms.

Please be better informed.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"I have lots of friends who are teachers - they work a lot during the holidays. I've even helped 1 out collating papers just so I could see her.

Maybe, but I was under the impression this, along with much of what they do in the second-half of this term, is technically moonlighting, mainly marking GCSE and A level papers for extra pay.

How hard is it again?

My mother was a teacher. Most of her evenings were spent marking, completing documentation and preparing for the next day (Lord, does anyone remember those clock ink stamps?)

As a teenager, I was in bed before her. She frequently worked until one in the morning. When I say frequently, I mean every weekday evening.

How hard is it again?

That was your mother's generation. That is not how it is done nowadays, I can assure you.

The advent of computers has meant even lesson preparation is only a click away..."

Wrong. Takes me considerably longer than a click to design a lesson.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I have lots of friends who are teachers - they work a lot during the holidays. I've even helped 1 out collating papers just so I could see her.

Maybe, but I was under the impression this, along with much of what they do in the second-half of this term, is technically moonlighting, mainly marking GCSE and A level papers for extra pay.

How hard is it again?

My mother was a teacher. Most of her evenings were spent marking, completing documentation and preparing for the next day (Lord, does anyone remember those clock ink stamps?)

As a teenager, I was in bed before her. She frequently worked until one in the morning. When I say frequently, I mean every weekday evening.

How hard is it again?

That was your mother's generation. That is not how it is done nowadays, I can assure you.

The advent of computers has meant even lesson preparation is only a click away..."

I am open to being assured. Go on, assure me.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

DDC - that's a long way from the truth unfortunately.

I have friends who are teachers.

Three have left to pursue other roles.

One is downgrading her position because of the workload.

Another is consistently doing lesson plans, marking, prep, etc at 8,9,10+pm because their own family needs picking up, feeding, gettin to bed BEFORE she can even start on the pile she has to bring home.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

"I don't know where you have got these ideas but this is NOT the picture for primary or secondary schools.

Please be better informed. "

....because one of the many roles I undertake involves me working in our local school regularly. I simply use my eyes and ears...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I have lots of friends who are teachers - they work a lot during the holidays. I've even helped 1 out collating papers just so I could see her.

Maybe, but I was under the impression this, along with much of what they do in the second-half of this term, is technically moonlighting, mainly marking GCSE and A level papers for extra pay.

How hard is it again?

My mother was a teacher. Most of her evenings were spent marking, completing documentation and preparing for the next day (Lord, does anyone remember those clock ink stamps?)

As a teenager, I was in bed before her. She frequently worked until one in the morning. When I say frequently, I mean every weekday evening.

How hard is it again?

That was your mother's generation. That is not how it is done nowadays, I can assure you.

The advent of computers has meant even lesson preparation is only a click away..."

I have numerous friends who are teachers, they all work between 1 and 4 hours every night they are home, doing marking, planning, making resources, laminating and numerous other duties. To say that's not how it's done now days is amazingly incorrect.

I also don't know one single teacher that does "one click planning"

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

....because one of the many roles I undertake involves me working in our local school regularly. I simply use my eyes and ears...

I am hearing the opposite - from people here and from friends elsewhere.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Ahh poor things.

what other profession, well apart from footballer, has a quarter of the year off?

I am guessing that you have little awareness of a teacher's work load."

yes my sister and her husband are both teachers and both say its a piece of piss

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Holiday firms are to blame. It's disgraceful profiteering.

Not exactly sure what implication you are trying to make here? Are you under the impression holiday companies / tourism in general make big profits?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *erbyDalesCplCouple over a year ago

Derbyshire

....because one of the many roles I undertake involves me working in our local school regularly. I simply use my eyes and ears...

I am hearing the opposite - from people here and from friends elsewhere."

Maybe I just deal with the worst cases. I wish I could give you examples, but obvs I can't. But there is no doubt that young teachers, especially whilst still keen and conscientious, do work significantly longer hours than their older peers.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"Ahh poor things.

what other profession, well apart from footballer, has a quarter of the year off?

I am guessing that you have little awareness of a teacher's work load.

yes my sister and her husband are both teachers and both say its a piece of piss"

Horsesh**

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Ahh poor things.

what other profession, well apart from footballer, has a quarter of the year off?

I am guessing that you have little awareness of a teacher's work load.

yes my sister and her husband are both teachers and both say its a piece of piss"

Perhaps they aren't good teachers?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

"DDC - that's a long way from the truth unfortunately.

I have friends who are teachers.

Three have left to pursue other roles.

One is downgrading her position because of the workload.

Are they doing the lesson plans at 8,9,10pm because they haven't done them during the summer holidays? They do know that they are not supposed to take the whole 6 weeks as holiday ...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"DDC - that's a long way from the truth unfortunately.

I have friends who are teachers.

Three have left to pursue other roles.

One is downgrading her position because of the workload.

I actually have a lot of sympathy for them. I would estimate that over half that paperwork adds absolutely no value to the education, it just serves to create a paper trail that 'proves' government policy is being implemented.

Education is such a political football that I think anyone going into it must be crazy to want to be a pawn in that game.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *litheroevoyeurMan over a year ago

Clitheroe

"The High Court has ruled in favour of the father.

Well that is good for him but now that leaves it open for other parents that paid the fine to sue and claim back which is exactly what I would do.

How are kids meant to respect rules if they are open to abuse"

Seems common sense has prevailed, in the court at least. Well done them.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"DDC - that's a long way from the truth unfortunately.

I have friends who are teachers.

Three have left to pursue other roles.

One is downgrading her position because of the workload.

Are they doing the lesson plans at 8,9,10pm because they haven't done them during the summer holidays? They do know that they are not supposed to take the whole 6 weeks as holiday ...

I am not a teacher but I would imagine that lesson plans are not a once a year thing.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *litheroevoyeurMan over a year ago

Clitheroe

A dose of flu can last for a week and as long as the absence is not during exam times then in my opinion these hard and fast rules could be relaxed.

The OP is actually talking about a seven day absence, so was I.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"DDC - that's a long way from the truth unfortunately.

I have friends who are teachers.

Three have left to pursue other roles.

One is downgrading her position because of the workload.

Are they doing the lesson plans at 8,9,10pm because they haven't done them during the summer holidays? They do know that they are not supposed to take the whole 6 weeks as holiday ...

I am not a teacher but I would imagine that lesson plans are not a once a year thing."

No they're not. They are ongoing to take into consideration current needs, differentiation, etc. Each class is different. Each child is different. You can't just pre-prepare lessons in a 'one size fits all' attitude. You have to meet and know your kids. You don't have the same ones in September as you had in July.

Each lesson is bespoke. I may teach one lesson to a class on Monday and have previously planned for the next day but often that may need adapting according to the progress and understanding gained.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

A dose of flu can last for a week and as long as the absence is not during exam times then in my opinion these hard and fast rules could be relaxed.

The OP is actually talking about a seven day absence, so was I.

Where's the evidence that even a 2 week absence can have a huge impact? I basically missed 3 years of some subjects and it didn't hurt my grades. As long as you are ready by the time the exams arrive then it's irrelevant when you learnt the material.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Ahh poor things.

what other profession, well apart from footballer, has a quarter of the year off?

I am guessing that you have little awareness of a teacher's work load.

yes my sister and her husband are both teachers and both say its a piece of piss"

My ex sister in law is a deputy head and I know for a fact they don't have all the holidays off, in the 6 weeks holiday she has to get all the next year's work planned and go into school take down all last year's work off the walls, decorate and put up new wall decorating, all because the schools are closed the teachers are still working

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"DDC - that's a long way from the truth unfortunately.

I have friends who are teachers.

Three have left to pursue other roles.

One is downgrading her position because of the workload.

Are they doing the lesson plans at 8,9,10pm because they haven't done them during the summer holidays? They do know that they are not supposed to take the whole 6 weeks as holiday ...

I am not a teacher but I would imagine that lesson plans are not a once a year thing.

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *awandOrderCouple over a year ago

SW London

[Removed by poster at 13/05/16 19:58:48]

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

"DDC - that's a long way from the truth unfortunately.

I have friends who are teachers.

Three have left to pursue other roles.

One is downgrading her position because of the workload.

Are they doing the lesson plans at 8,9,10pm because they haven't done them during the summer holidays? They do know that they are not supposed to take the whole 6 weeks as holiday ...

I am not a teacher but I would imagine that lesson plans are not a once a year thing.

Each lesson is bespoke. I may teach one lesson to a class on Monday and have previously planned for the next day but often that may need adapting according to the progress and understanding gained."

But the curriculum doesn't change on a daily / weekly basis?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

"DDC - that's a long way from the truth unfortunately.

I have friends who are teachers.

Three have left to pursue other roles.

One is downgrading her position because of the workload.

Are they doing the lesson plans at 8,9,10pm because they haven't done them during the summer holidays? They do know that they are not supposed to take the whole 6 weeks as holiday ...

I am not a teacher but I would imagine that lesson plans are not a once a year thing.

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then? "

The best education system is Finland. No testing apart from their equivalent to GCSE, no excessive bureaucracy, no inspections, no performance related pay, children start school aged 7.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

the amount a holiday costs - a fine of 60 quid to take them out added on is worth it ive heard some say - we never took ours out as we could never afford it even when it was cheaper but kids can miss more with illness and still be ok - my daughter missed about 2/3 of school year at secondary when she was about 13 - didnt affect her schooling at all -

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *awandOrderCouple over a year ago

SW London

"Ahh poor things.

what other profession, well apart from footballer, has a quarter of the year off?

I am guessing that you have little awareness of a teacher's work load.

yes my sister and her husband are both teachers and both say its a piece of piss

Perhaps they aren't good teachers?"

Agreed. I know lots of teachers and most work 10 plus hours in school plus more out of school in the evenings and at weekends. I also know professional footballers and they certainly don't have all that time off either .... tours at the end of the season and pre season cut into their so called holidays.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"DDC - that's a long way from the truth unfortunately.

I have friends who are teachers.

Three have left to pursue other roles.

One is downgrading her position because of the workload.

Are they doing the lesson plans at 8,9,10pm because they haven't done them during the summer holidays? They do know that they are not supposed to take the whole 6 weeks as holiday ...

I am not a teacher but I would imagine that lesson plans are not a once a year thing.

Each lesson is bespoke. I may teach one lesson to a class on Monday and have previously planned for the next day but often that may need adapting according to the progress and understanding gained."

I haven't taught children. I have trained adults. When I got home, I had to do the same thing. Reassess my approach, their needs and requirements, the plan and the requirements. So that does not surprise me.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then? "

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

The difference between both and attitudes / views on personal freedom, questioning authority etc are so different between cultures that any comparison doesnt give an accurate representation of the strengths and weaknesses of each system.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

The cultural difference : Chinese have an impeccable work ethic

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

The cultural difference : Chinese have an impeccable work ethic "

Under a communist dictatorship. They don't have kids who call you a fucking cunt when you ask them to sit down.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *heBirminghamWeekendMan over a year ago

here

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

The cultural difference : Chinese have an impeccable work ethic

Under a communist dictatorship. They don't have kids who call you a fucking cunt when you ask them to sit down."

I would suggest the work ethic of the young Chinese has very little to do with the communist dictatorship

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"DDC - that's a long way from the truth unfortunately.

I have friends who are teachers.

Three have left to pursue other roles.

One is downgrading her position because of the workload.

Are they doing the lesson plans at 8,9,10pm because they haven't done them during the summer holidays? They do know that they are not supposed to take the whole 6 weeks as holiday ...

I am not a teacher but I would imagine that lesson plans are not a once a year thing.

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

The best education system is Finland. No testing apart from their equivalent to GCSE, no excessive bureaucracy, no inspections, no performance related pay, children start school aged 7."

Finland is 6th according to the OECD

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary? "

What's your point? Nothing to do with holidays in term time - and I bet they're not permitted to do that in China.

Still, same old same old. Education thread turns in to attacks on teachers. Heard it all.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

The cultural difference : Chinese have an impeccable work ethic

Under a communist dictatorship. They don't have kids who call you a fucking cunt when you ask them to sit down."

It's about as communist as the Congo is democratic. I don't think it's really a good thing that we have kids telling teachers to fuck off. Besides, in the documentary the Chinese teachers had the same type of kids as the British ones...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

What's your point? Nothing to do with holidays in term time - and I bet they're not permitted to do that in China.

Still, same old same old. Education thread turns in to attacks on teachers. Heard it all. "

That you think it's important for education to be pupil centered and bespoke for each child. But the evidence doesn't prove that at all. It's just a widespread belief about how education should be, with no scientific proof it leads to a better education.

Just like people saying that losing 2 weeks or 1 week of school is detrimental, there's no proof.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *awandOrderCouple over a year ago

SW London

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

What's your point? Nothing to do with holidays in term time - and I bet they're not permitted to do that in China.

Still, same old same old. Education thread turns in to attacks on teachers. Heard it all.

Just like people saying that losing 2 weeks or 1 week of school is detrimental, there's no proof. "

There is actually a lot of research which is why the government have set their threshold levels for attendance at 90% which is an increase in last year. Evidence such as what makes a difference is part and parcel of what teachers read and assimilate into their practice.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *awandOrderCouple over a year ago

SW London

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary? "

Do you trust every documentary you watch? Swallow it hook, line and sinker? Have you seen any about swinging?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

What's your point? Nothing to do with holidays in term time - and I bet they're not permitted to do that in China.

Still, same old same old. Education thread turns in to attacks on teachers. Heard it all.

Just like people saying that losing 2 weeks or 1 week of school is detrimental, there's no proof.

Losing 1 or 2 weeks isn't going to put you under 90% though is it!

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *awandOrderCouple over a year ago

SW London

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

What's your point? Nothing to do with holidays in term time - and I bet they're not permitted to do that in China.

Still, same old same old. Education thread turns in to attacks on teachers. Heard it all.

Just like people saying that losing 2 weeks or 1 week of school is detrimental, there's no proof.

Losing 1 or 2 weeks isn't going to put you under 90% though is it! "

If its cumulative it could, and taking a few weeks here and there certainly could do. One or two days off for illness, then a week here and there?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

Do you trust every documentary you watch? Swallow it hook, line and sinker? Have you seen any about swinging? "

I also read, things like the OECD report which ranks Britain 20th in education out of 76 countries.

The top 5 were all asian countries which is a massive coincidence. I think not.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

What's your point? Nothing to do with holidays in term time - and I bet they're not permitted to do that in China.

Still, same old same old. Education thread turns in to attacks on teachers. Heard it all.

Just like people saying that losing 2 weeks or 1 week of school is detrimental, there's no proof.

Losing 1 or 2 weeks isn't going to put you under 90% though is it!

If its cumulative it could, and taking a few weeks here and there certainly could do. One or two days off for illness, then a week here and there?"

A school year is 39 weeks, let's take the higher figure of 2 weeks, even though the court case was about 1. If you attend 37/39 then that's 94.9% attendance. You could even thrown in a third week for illness and you'd still be over the 90%.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *awandOrderCouple over a year ago

SW London

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

What's your point? Nothing to do with holidays in term time - and I bet they're not permitted to do that in China.

Still, same old same old. Education thread turns in to attacks on teachers. Heard it all.

Just like people saying that losing 2 weeks or 1 week of school is detrimental, there's no proof.

Losing 1 or 2 weeks isn't going to put you under 90% though is it!

If its cumulative it could, and taking a few weeks here and there certainly could do. One or two days off for illness, then a week here and there?

Well, let's just say you would need to be in the system to see what a difference that makes, certainly for primary school children. A day off here and there means a day off every three weeks or so .... it all adds up very quickly.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *awandOrderCouple over a year ago

SW London

Time for me to make my apologies for absence on this thread .... I am just not into discussing the details after the hectic weeks of work I am in the midst of ... over and out

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

What's your point? Nothing to do with holidays in term time - and I bet they're not permitted to do that in China.

Still, same old same old. Education thread turns in to attacks on teachers. Heard it all.

Just like people saying that losing 2 weeks or 1 week of school is detrimental, there's no proof.

Losing 1 or 2 weeks isn't going to put you under 90% though is it!

If its cumulative it could, and taking a few weeks here and there certainly could do. One or two days off for illness, then a week here and there?

Do they teach maths in this system you speak of? A day off every three weeks is still 93.3% attendance.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

What's your point? Nothing to do with holidays in term time - and I bet they're not permitted to do that in China.

Still, same old same old. Education thread turns in to attacks on teachers. Heard it all.

Just like people saying that losing 2 weeks or 1 week of school is detrimental, there's no proof. "

1 current research shows a tailored education creates greater progress

2 you have a problem with it, complain to the DfE who insist on it

3 fewer working class kids entered university when we followed a one size fits all approach

4 Asian education systems require kids to be hothoused, schooled for more hours per day, kids are often sent to crammed at weekends and during holidays, some Asian countries see higher incidents of stress, self harm and suicide than the west. They have corporal punishment.

Good model for British schools then. Plus Asian parents tend to be more pushy and highly involved in their children's education.

Many British parents would very much have to change their attitude to education and instil that into their children for any Asian system to work. Not make excuses why homework can't be done, why their child can abuse teachers (because they were angry and under stress), why their child doesn't do detention even though they have destroyed every lesson they've been to in one day or told staff to fuck off.

And I'm not talking about all parents but a significant minority in some areas.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I guess you didn't enjoy that channel 4 documentary where the Chinese education system wiped the floor with the British one then?

you can't compare the Chinese teaching method to the British without factoring in cultural differences.

Did you watch the documentary?

What's your point? Nothing to do with holidays in term time - and I bet they're not permitted to do that in China.

Still, same old same old. Education thread turns in to attacks on teachers. Heard it all.

Just like people saying that losing 2 weeks or 1 week of school is detrimental, there's no proof.

1 current research shows a tailored education creates greater progress

2 you have a problem with it, complain to the DfE who insist on it

3 fewer working class kids entered university when we followed a one size fits all approach

Good model for British schools then. Plus Asian parents tend to be more pushy and highly involved in their children's education.

And I'm not talking about all parents but a significant minority in some areas."

Apart from point 1, I generally agree with you. Probably for entirely different reasons though. I wouldn't put my kids through an Asian education system, the fucking things are brutal. They do produce kids that are better at maths and most subjects though.

The problem for me is that I think that the purpose of education is to help you in the work place and being able to do maths quicker than the guy next to you ain't gonna make a damn bit of difference in your career.

I prefer the British system because it's worse. It's basically a big doss that allows kids enough free time to pursue more meaningful activities that teach life skills that will actually help when they leave the bubble of education.

So I think education is a means to an end / a hoop to jump through. But if you actually think it's an end in itself then the Asian systems are far superior, just ask the OECD if Channel 4 didn't do it for you.