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John major

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By *icksfocus OP Man over a year ago

Pontefract

What a statement John major has come out with today. In support of the remain side of the eu vote he said today

Those who want undiluted sovereignty can find it in North Korea

I despair I really do

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Even though it's a dramatic statement, he's not wrong, is he?

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

the only man with a moustache on the inside of his lip

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

Nope, he is not.

Although still undecided I thought it was a very put together essay and I am now struggling to see convincing arguments from the Brexit campaign.

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By *icksfocus OP Man over a year ago

Pontefract

So does he mean that if we stay in Europe sovereignty is dead? And since the sovereignty is the royal family are they giving a clue that it's the end for the royal family?

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

I thought he'd died for second there

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

"So does he mean that if we stay in Europe sovereignty is dead? And since the sovereignty is the royal family are they giving a clue that it's the end for the royal family? "

No, he was saying that by leaving we would not be giving away out sovereignty.

He was using North Kirea as an example for those they want complete and utter sovereignty.

And he's probably not wrong. It's a good example of one of the few countries where no external force has any bearing on what they choose to do.

Everywhere else in the world, if you wanna deal with people, you gotta bend a bit.

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By *icksfocus OP Man over a year ago

Pontefract

The vote leave camp has commented on his statement

They said Sir John had been wrong on nearly every EU issue over the last 20 years and was wrong now

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"The vote leave camp has commented on his statement

They said Sir John had been wrong on nearly every EU issue over the last 20 years and was wrong now "

LOL

It doesn't matter what is said or by whom - the Leave campaign will never be happy with anything.

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By *icksfocus OP Man over a year ago

Pontefract

It's all a game. Neither side will ever be happy. I just hope the right decision is made and that everyone used there vote

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"The vote leave camp has commented on his statement

They said Sir John had been wrong on nearly every EU issue over the last 20 years and was wrong now "

and yet where he to be in 'their camp', the sun would have shone out of his posterior in that same period..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So does he mean that if we stay in Europe sovereignty is dead? And since the sovereignty is the royal family are they giving a clue that it's the end for the royal family? "

lets fucking hope so!

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By *olgateMan over a year ago

on the road to nowhere in particular

Him ign major was chancellor on black Monday when the ERMwent tits up. He is a fully paid up member of the in campaign, a nuclear war wouldn't dissuade him

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By *atcoupleCouple over a year ago

Suffolk - East Anglia

Was the UK like N Korea before we joined the common market? No of course not.

What a stupid thing to say. I used to like him but I've gone off him now.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So does he mean that if we stay in Europe sovereignty is dead? And since the sovereignty is the royal family are they giving a clue that it's the end for the royal family?

No, he was saying that by leaving we would not be giving away out sovereignty.

He was using North Kirea as an example for those they want complete and utter sovereignty.

And he's probably not wrong. It's a good example of one of the few countries where no external force has any bearing on what they choose to do.

Everywhere else in the world, if you wanna deal with people, you gotta bend a bit. "

We do not have sovereignty. The EU overrules our laws.

Mr Major seems to be missing a fairly major point. Our constitution is based on democratic principles. You know, we get to vote on who will be our government. North Korea does not.

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By *icksfocus OP Man over a year ago

Pontefract

"The vote leave camp has commented on his statement

They said Sir John had been wrong on nearly every EU issue over the last 20 years and was wrong now

and yet where he to be in 'their camp', the sun would have shone out of his posterior in that same period..

Check out what failures he has had as a mp. Don't even think the remain group want him but when needs must

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

"So does he mean that if we stay in Europe sovereignty is dead? And since the sovereignty is the royal family are they giving a clue that it's the end for the royal family?

No, he was saying that by leaving we would not be giving away out sovereignty.

He was using North Kirea as an example for those they want complete and utter sovereignty.

And he's probably not wrong. It's a good example of one of the few countries where no external force has any bearing on what they choose to do.

Everywhere else in the world, if you wanna deal with people, you gotta bend a bit.

We do not have sovereignty. The EU overrules our laws.

Mr Major seems to be missing a fairly major point. Our constitution is based on democratic principles. You know, we get to vote on who will be our government. North Korea does not."

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

How many people feel they actually have any real sovereignty at the moment? You only have one vote and you will never get your own way.

The only ones really concerened about sovereignty are those we vote into office; after which they do whatever they want. EU or UK whats the difference?

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

"Was the UK like N Korea before we joined the common market? No of course not.

What a stupid thing to say. I used to like him but I've gone off him now."

Not sure if you have read the essay but your kinda taking his comments out of context.

He used NK as an example of total sovereignty.

Brexit says we wil have total sovereignty if we leave but we will not. Can not. And never did have.

If you want to deal with other nations you will always succeed to their wishes in some way or another.

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By *olgateMan over a year ago

on the road to nowhere in particular

"Was the UK like N Korea before we joined the common market? No of course not.

What a stupid thing to say. I used to like him but I've gone off him now.

Not sure if you have read the essay but your kinda taking his comments out of context.

He used NK as an example of total sovereignty.

Brexit says we wil have total sovereignty if we leave but we will not. Can not. And never did have.

If you want to deal with other nations you will always succeed to their wishes in some way or another. "

In that case neither do NK. They have to cowtow to China

The problem with the EU is laws are made by unelected bureaucrats not the elected MEPs

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So does he mean that if we stay in Europe sovereignty is dead? And since the sovereignty is the royal family are they giving a clue that it's the end for the royal family?

No, he was saying that by leaving we would not be giving away out sovereignty.

He was using North Kirea as an example for those they want complete and utter sovereignty.

And he's probably not wrong. It's a good example of one of the few countries where no external force has any bearing on what they choose to do.

Everywhere else in the world, if you wanna deal with people, you gotta bend a bit.

We do not have sovereignty. The EU overrules our laws.

Mr Major seems to be missing a fairly major point. Our constitution is based on democratic principles. You know, we get to vote on who will be our government. North Korea does not.

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

I appreciate that. The last referendum we took part in resulted in us joining the common market. We did not get the opportunity to vote on the loss of our sovereignty.

You might want to do a bit of Google research into how decisions are made by the EU. It is complex but the long and short of it is that decisions can be made by an unelected body.

It does seem strange to me that a collection of different countries with different interests can pass "democratic" laws which do not suit our culture or interests. Call me small minded.

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By *accaMan over a year ago

leicester

"So does he mean that if we stay in Europe sovereignty is dead? And since the sovereignty is the royal family are they giving a clue that it's the end for the royal family?

No, he was saying that by leaving we would not be giving away out sovereignty.

He was using North Kirea as an example for those they want complete and utter sovereignty.

And he's probably not wrong. It's a good example of one of the few countries where no external force has any bearing on what they choose to do.

Everywhere else in the world, if you wanna deal with people, you gotta bend a bit.

We do not have sovereignty. The EU overrules our laws.

Mr Major seems to be missing a fairly major point. Our constitution is based on democratic principles. You know, we get to vote on who will be our government. North Korea does not.

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

I appreciate that. The last referendum we took part in resulted in us joining the common market. We did not get the opportunity to vote on the loss of our sovereignty.

You might want to do a bit of Google research into how decisions are made by the EU. It is complex but the long and short of it is that decisions can be made by an unelected body.

It does seem strange to me that a collection of different countries with different interests can pass "democratic" laws which do not suit our culture or interests. Call me small minded. "

Couldn't have put that better myself

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

" Call me small minded. "

if you insist .... you're small minded

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Call me small minded.

if you insist .... you're small minded

I can be.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So does he mean that if we stay in Europe sovereignty is dead? And since the sovereignty is the royal family are they giving a clue that it's the end for the royal family?

No, he was saying that by leaving we would not be giving away out sovereignty.

He was using North Kirea as an example for those they want complete and utter sovereignty.

And he's probably not wrong. It's a good example of one of the few countries where no external force has any bearing on what they choose to do.

Everywhere else in the world, if you wanna deal with people, you gotta bend a bit.

We do not have sovereignty. The EU overrules our laws.

Mr Major seems to be missing a fairly major point. Our constitution is based on democratic principles. You know, we get to vote on who will be our government. North Korea does not.

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

I appreciate that. The last referendum we took part in resulted in us joining the common market. We did not get the opportunity to vote on the loss of our sovereignty.

You might want to do a bit of Google research into how decisions are made by the EU. It is complex but the long and short of it is that decisions can be made by an unelected body.

It does seem strange to me that a collection of different countries with different interests can pass "democratic" laws which do not suit our culture or interests. Call me small minded.

Couldn't have put that better myself

Exactly this!

I do find it funny that the open border idea of the eu is fine until it affects a country, like Austria when it again becomes 'our border'. For the eu to work properly it needs all countries to drop self interest. Only then will it become the autocratic state that it wants.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

John Major has extremely poor judgement....He fucked Edwina Curry what more does anyone need to know about him.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"John Major has extremely poor judgement....He fucked Edwina Curry what more does anyone need to know about him.

That's a very good point

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 29/04/16 15:46:27]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"John Major has extremely poor judgement....He fucked Edwina Curry what more does anyone need to know about him.

That's a very good point

Are we judged by the people we fuck then?

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By *hetalkingstoveMan over a year ago

London

"You might want to do a bit of Google research into how decisions are made by the EU. It is complex but the long and short of it is that decisions can be made by an unelected body.

Like the House of Lords, you mean? Like an electoral system that means we have a government only 30-odd% of people voted for?

Shouting about sovreignity just shows the Brexiters don't have any better arguments than 'Britain is great! Hurrah, Britain!'

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I like Johnny boy.

He can peel an orange just by using his foreskin

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By *olgateMan over a year ago

on the road to nowhere in particular

"You might want to do a bit of Google research into how decisions are made by the EU. It is complex but the long and short of it is that decisions can be made by an unelected body.

Like the House of Lords, you mean? Like an electoral system that means we have a government only 30-odd% of people voted for?

Shouting about sovreignity just shows the Brexiters don't have any better arguments than 'Britain is great! Hurrah, Britain!'"
better 30% than unelected mandarins

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You might want to do a bit of Google research into how decisions are made by the EU. It is complex but the long and short of it is that decisions can be made by an unelected body.

Like the House of Lords, you mean? Like an electoral system that means we have a government only 30-odd% of people voted for?

Shouting about sovreignity just shows the Brexiters don't have any better arguments than 'Britain is great! Hurrah, Britain!'"

Not great, no. My post was balanced and did not involve any shouting.

Better, yes.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I wish Spitting Image was still going.

They'd have a bottomless pit of subject matter to use with the bunch of tossers on both sides of the debate

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Every international agreement that a country signs up to cedes some sovereignty. Im pleased that we have a nuclear non proliferation treaty....that we have agreed with othwr countries not to sell landlines or cluster bombs. Each of thise agreements gives up some sovereignty....or our right to do what we want when we want.

The sovereignty argument is actually deflection of the real issues.

As an individual you have given up some of your freedoms to be part of society. Your freedom to kill, take what you want from who you want.

Having total sovereignty as a country or complete freedom as an individual places you outside society. Total freedom or total sovereignty is not actually a good thing.

I think that was John Majors point.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Every international agreement that a country signs up to cedes some sovereignty. Im pleased that we have a nuclear non proliferation treaty....that we have agreed with othwr countries not to sell landlines or cluster bombs. Each of thise agreements gives up some sovereignty....or our right to do what we want when we want.

The sovereignty argument is actually deflection of the real issues.

As an individual you have given up some of your freedoms to be part of society. Your freedom to kill, take what you want from who you want.

Having total sovereignty as a country or complete freedom as an individual places you outside society. Total freedom or total sovereignty is not actually a good thing.

I think that was John Majors point."

Ye, but what's the point of him?

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By *nfamyMan over a year ago

Goole

"What a statement John major has come out with today. In support of the remain side of the eu vote he said today

Those who want undiluted sovereignty can find it in North Korea

I despair I really do "

But he's fucked Edwina Currie so his judgement might be Questionable.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Lol

I didnt have any respect for him when he was PM but I did think he handled himself pretty well on radio 4.

I hope Tony Blair dosnt start on this subject though. In fact I hope we dont ever have to hear him again

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What a statement John major has come out with today. In support of the remain side of the eu vote he said today

Those who want undiluted sovereignty can find it in North Korea

I despair I really do

But he's fucked Edwina Currie so his judgement might be Questionable.

I reckon it was the other way around

.......Edwina fucked him

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By *nd-DCouple over a year ago

portsmouth

"I thought he'd died for second there"

Me too ??

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"I wish Spitting Image was still going.

They'd have a bottomless pit of subject matter to use with the bunch of tossers on both sides of the debate

Remember John Major on spitting image, a dull grey puppet devoid of any colour.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Is it true Edwina Curry gave him a sexually transmitted disease called Salmonella?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The sovereignty argument is actually deflection of the real issues.

As an individual you have given up some of your freedoms to be part of society. Your freedom to kill, take what you want from who you want.

Having total sovereignty as a country or complete freedom as an individual places you outside society. Total freedom or total sovereignty is not actually a good thing.

I think that was John Majors point."

You have missed the definition of sovereignty.

It is the power of a country to control its government.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 29/04/16 17:02:38]

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

It is the power of a country to control its government."

No it isn't. A dictatorship can have total sovereignty and and "the country" has no say in its governance.

It's the ability of a state however controlled be it dictatorship, democracy, meritocracy etc, to control its own affairs free from external influence.

And we will never have that. It's pretty much impossible if you want to have anything to do with the rest of the world you have to "go along to get along". That's not me being less patriotic than anyone else. It's just how it is.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I do remember John Major telling us it would be a great disaster if we did not join the euro...a man of wisdom he is not.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It is the power of a country to control its government.

No it isn't. A dictatorship can have total sovereignty and and "the country" has no say in its governance.

It's the ability of a state however controlled be it dictatorship, democracy, meritocracy etc, to control its own affairs free from external influence.

Well, my definition comes from the Cambridge dictionary. I understand that meanings and language change over time but you seem to have an unaccepted general meaning of the term. It is nothing to do with patriotism. It is about the population of a country being able to influence its government.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It is the power of a country to control its government.

No it isn't. A dictatorship can have total sovereignty and and "the country" has no say in its governance.

It's the ability of a state however controlled be it dictatorship, democracy, meritocracy etc, to control its own affairs free from external influence.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

"You have missed the definition of sovereignty.

It is the power of a country to control its government."

i'm not sure UKplc is ready for this kind of radical concept to be fair

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You have missed the definition of sovereignty.

It is the power of a country to control its government.

i'm not sure UKplc is ready for this kind of radical concept to be fair"

Oh, I don't know. We seem to do OK generally. Better than North Korea anyway.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

"You have missed the definition of sovereignty.

It is the power of a country to control its government.

i'm not sure UKplc is ready for this kind of radical concept to be fair

Oh, I don't know. We seem to do OK generally. Better than North Korea anyway."

so why rock the boat with this pointless referendum?

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By *B9 QueenWoman over a year ago

Over the rainbow, under the bridge

Ah bollox. Thought this was a RIP thread.

Disappointed now.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Ah bollox. Thought this was a RIP thread.

Disappointed now. "

...so did i at first.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

Wouldn't you prefer to be voting for options that are equal in their detail? Such as whether the EU would agree to a trade deal with us that didn't include the free movement of people?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Wouldn't you prefer to be voting for options that are equal in their detail? Such as whether the EU would agree to a trade deal with us that didn't include the free movement of people? "

I would, yes, but Mr C did not manage that as an option,

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

No, we voted to be a part of the common market.... a trading bloc.... not a political bloc.

However, economic and political union was actually in the agreement we signed up to... Many years later, Ted Heath was interviewed and asked directly about this, to which his reply was..

" that was always the case. We just chose not to tell the people that"

So, we voted in to something that we weren't told the truth about in the first place.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The sovereignty argument is actually deflection of the real issues.

As an individual you have given up some of your freedoms to be part of society. Your freedom to kill, take what you want from who you want.

Having total sovereignty as a country or complete freedom as an individual places you outside society. Total freedom or total sovereignty is not actually a good thing.

I think that was John Majors point.

You have missed the definition of sovereignty.

It is the power of a country to control its government."

I havnt missed the definition of sovereignty at all.

You may have missed my point lol

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By *aucy3Couple over a year ago

glasgow

"What a statement John major has come out with today. In support of the remain side of the eu vote he said today

Those who want undiluted sovereignty can find it in North Korea

I despair I really do "

Nobody gave John major any credence when he was pm,why would they give him any now.

Even Edwina Curry must be asking why.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"Nope, he is not.

Although still undecided I thought it was a very put together essay and I am now struggling to see convincing arguments from the Brexit campaign. "

Well you may as well stop looking for convincing arguments from BREXIT because, with the possible exception Gove (who I didn't agree with but thought put his case well) non of them seem to be able to put a reasonable argument for leaving together between them.

I think I could put a better argument forward for leaving then what I've heard from BREXI and I'm in favour of BREMAIN .

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"Was the UK like N Korea before we joined the common market? No of course not.

What a stupid thing to say. I used to like him but I've gone off him now.

Not sure if you have read the essay but your kinda taking his comments out of context.

He used NK as an example of total sovereignty.

Brexit says we wil have total sovereignty if we leave but we will not. Can not. And never did have.

If you want to deal with other nations you will always succeed to their wishes in some way or another.

In that case neither do NK. They have to cowtow to China

The problem with the EU is laws are made by unelected bureaucrats not the elected MEPs"

Except that that myth is not actually true. EU law is made by a combination of:-

European Council - made of the Heads of Elected Governments of the Sovereign member countries

The Council of Ministers - made of one Ministers from each of the Elected Governments of the Sovereign member countries. The actual minister depends on what the matter for discussion is at any given time.

The European Parliament - made of members directly elected by the peoples of Europe.

So where are these unelected bureaucrats, what council or committee are they on and how do they make these laws? They don't exist and it does not happen.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"So does he mean that if we stay in Europe sovereignty is dead? And since the sovereignty is the royal family are they giving a clue that it's the end for the royal family?

No, he was saying that by leaving we would not be giving away out sovereignty.

He was using North Kirea as an example for those they want complete and utter sovereignty.

And he's probably not wrong. It's a good example of one of the few countries where no external force has any bearing on what they choose to do.

Everywhere else in the world, if you wanna deal with people, you gotta bend a bit.

We do not have sovereignty. The EU overrules our laws.

Mr Major seems to be missing a fairly major point. Our constitution is based on democratic principles. You know, we get to vote on who will be our government. North Korea does not.

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

I appreciate that. The last referendum we took part in resulted in us joining the common market. We did not get the opportunity to vote on the loss of our sovereignty.

You might want to do a bit of Google research into how decisions are made by the EU. It is complex but the long and short of it is that decisions can be made by an unelected body.

It does seem strange to me that a collection of different countries with different interests can pass "democratic" laws which do not suit our culture or interests. Call me small minded. "

I won't call you small minded because, from other threads we've been on, I know you're not.

You are correct than EU law making is very complex but it basically boils down to decisions and laws being made by the 3 bodies I stated above. One of those is directly elected, the other 2 are there to represent the interests of the Sovereign and democratically elected member countries.

This arrangement is designed so that smaller countries, like say Luxemburg or Belgium, are not always out voted by the large countries (such as Germany, France, UK etc.). It also means that France and Germany can not gang together and easily out vote the UK, or the UK and France gang together and easily out vote Germany.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

I don't know but I bet she was more feisty than Norma.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"You might want to do a bit of Google research into how decisions are made by the EU. It is complex but the long and short of it is that decisions can be made by an unelected body.

Like the House of Lords, you mean? Like an electoral system that means we have a government only 30-odd% of people voted for?

Shouting about sovreignity just shows the Brexiters don't have any better arguments than 'Britain is great! Hurrah, Britain!'"

I actually agree with then saying Britain is Great. it is. But its influence is even greater by being part of the EU and spreading British ideals of Democracy, Good Governance and 'the rule of law' right across the whole continent of Europe.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I have no idea what John Major said but I'm pretty sure nobody really gives a f¥€k what he thinks.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

The sovereignty argument is actually deflection of the real issues.

As an individual you have given up some of your freedoms to be part of society. Your freedom to kill, take what you want from who you want.

Having total sovereignty as a country or complete freedom as an individual places you outside society. Total freedom or total sovereignty is not actually a good thing.

I think that was John Majors point.

You have missed the definition of sovereignty.

It is the power of a country to control its government."

Actually it's not. Sovereignty is about where power actually lies. In this country, in law, Sovereignty lies in the three institution of state; the Sovereign (Queen), The House of Commons and The House of Lords. Any of these three institutions can create law and all three have to agree to any laws (with a few exceptions for the House of Lords). They may also seed some of there sovereignty to other bodies (Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly, International bodies etc.) but they always have the sovereign power in law to take it back.

But in reality, especially in a liberal democracy, true sovereignty ultimately rests with the electorate. Which is why we can have a referendum and, if the people choose, leave the EU. We can do this because we are a sovereign state and sovereignty still, as it has since the Romans left, lies with in our own country.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Even though it's a dramatic statement, he's not wrong, is he?"

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"I have no idea what John Major said but I'm pretty sure nobody really gives a f¥€k what he thinks."

I do. I give a fuck about what they are all saying. It's the arguments and points they are all making that is convincing me that we should REMAIN in the EU.

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By *endrix30Man over a year ago

dudley

"So does he mean that if we stay in Europe sovereignty is dead? And since the sovereignty is the royal family are they giving a clue that it's the end for the royal family?

No, he was saying that by leaving we would not be giving away out sovereignty.

He was using North Kirea as an example for those they want complete and utter sovereignty.

And he's probably not wrong. It's a good example of one of the few countries where no external force has any bearing on what they choose to do.

Everywhere else in the world, if you wanna deal with people, you gotta bend a bit.

We do not have sovereignty. The EU overrules our laws.

Mr Major seems to be missing a fairly major point. Our constitution is based on democratic principles. You know, we get to vote on who will be our government. North Korea does not.

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

"
Unfortunately the EU is not a democracy and never will be, laws are made by people who have not been elected and they don't care about the population, they only care about what they want and having power over everyone. To stay in would prove to be a big mistake and those who vote to stay in would regret it in future.

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By *itchfieldMan over a year ago

Portsmouth

A thousand years from now there'll be one human government. Major issues will be decided by collective vote of all citizens. They won't have any need to work seeing as androids will be able to do anything we see as work now better than we can anyway. We'll have settled multiple planets in multiple solar systems.

In other words the future is that we will grow increasingly more connected with the rest of humanity. Our personal traditions are lovely to have and make us feel comfortable but they're the blink of an eye in the scheme of things.

To my mind there's no point going backwards. I absolutely agree that the EU is broken. I think the UN is too and our own legal system. I think have a Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish assembly is broken. I think it's nuts to have different laws on abortion in Northern Ireland. Or different house buying laws in Scotland. It's fine to experiment with different things in one area but whatever works best should apply to the whole of the UK and you should never be guilty of a crime in one area that wouldn't be a crime elsewhere.

We are British. Being tough, stiff upper lipped, largely immune to fear or the threat of violence or hardship is our thing. To the people of the British Isles WWII was just a spot of bother and we just got on with it. If you think the EU is broken, just get on with it. Write to your MEP and MP. Give your suggestions as to how to improve it. Campaign for improvements. Support them. Be constructive. You don't need to dismantle it entirely because you aren't getting enough out of it.

Oh yeah, and it's just not British to be selfish. If we are not happy with the EU the responsible and British thing to do is to lead it into a glorious future. It could do amazing things for us if we would just pull together and be a bit more ambitious about it.

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

The sovereignty argument is actually deflection of the real issues.

As an individual you have given up some of your freedoms to be part of society. Your freedom to kill, take what you want from who you want.

Having total sovereignty as a country or complete freedom as an individual places you outside society. Total freedom or total sovereignty is not actually a good thing.

I think that was John Majors point.

You have missed the definition of sovereignty.

It is the power of a country to control its government.

So we could, as a sovereign country, for example, remain in the EU and change any of our tax laws without permission from the EU... we could, if we so wished, abolish VAT on tampons? Abolish VAT altogether?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Major signed us up to Maastricht saying it wouldn't give up sovereignty and he refused to rule out joining the euro.

Now he doesn't want to take back control and stop handing Brussels £350m a week.

•Most UK laws are made in Brussels

•Other member states can force through decisions against the UK’s wishes

•The British government has repeatedly been defeated in cases brought to the ECJ

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

Now he doesn't want to take back control and stop handing Brussels £350m a week

Beautiful example of what's wrong with this debate.

We don't give Brussells £350 million a week.

But your a bright chap and you already know that.

Yet your happy to trot out a sound bite that you know to be untrue and misleading just so long as it supports the side of the debate that you lean toward.

This debate runs the risk of being won by the side that can provide the most convincing series of lies to the greatest number of gullible people.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Now he doesn't want to take back control and stop handing Brussels £350m a week

Beautiful example of what's wrong with this debate.

We don't give Brussells £350 million a week.

But your a bright chap and you already know that.

Yet your happy to trot out a sound bite that you know to be untrue and misleading just so long as it supports the side of the debate that you lean toward.

This debate runs the risk of being won by the side that can provide the most convincing series of lies to the greatest number of gullible people. "

But from where I am standing there is only one side producing lies

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I live in Scotland; I am fully aware of the lies the government throw out

also aware of how Labour & Tories kiss ass together and team up when push comes to shove

yes you are right its not £350 million per week, its £55 million per day

love how you keep patronising

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

"I live in Scotland; I am fully aware of the lies the government throw out

also aware of how Labour & Tories kiss ass together and team up when push comes to shove

yes you are right its not £350 million per week, its £55 million per day

love how you keep patronising

I'm not sure how I'm being patronising.

I literally meant that based on inteligent posts I've seen you make before I can not imagine that you don't know the figure you gave is misleading.

Whichever way you cut it up, I third of our obligation to the EU is a rebate we don't pay out in the first place.

Another third comes back to us in subsidies and payments.

Are you telling me didnt know this?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I Another third comes back to us in subsidies and payments.

Are you telling me didnt know this?"

tell me??

are we openly allowed to use that one third that comes back in subsidies & payments in any way we the UK deems fit to use it? of is it strictly specified on what it must be used for

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

"I Another third comes back to us in subsidies and payments.

Are you telling me didnt know this?

tell me??

are we openly allowed to use that one third that comes back in subsidies & payments in any way we the UK deems fit to use it? of is it strictly specified on what it must be used for

As its money that if we didn't get back we would have to spend in the same way anyway it doesn't matter.

But you do prove my point (hence the desire to move to talking about the money rather than your initial statement)

Clearly you know that we don't pay £350 million in the first place, and definitely not net, yet your happy to make the claim that we do.

And that's what's wrong with this debat.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

£55 million per day

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

NO NO a thousand times NO!

We voted to remain in a "Common Market" which was basically a free trade zone, a trade deal.....which did not include free movement of people etc. nor many many of the rules imposed by Brussels.

And again NO ... We do not have any democratic say over the laws and rules ...these come from Commissions etc which are not elected. Then (some but not all) nodded through by an EU parliament which is, to some extent, democratically elected but ruled by block votes. We are one country in 28... And our influence is at best 1/28th! Many of the rules go through without reference to the EU parliament which basically costs a fortune but has little/no powers.

Not a single voter in the UK ever agreed to joining the EU. Our rights and democracy have been removed over time by treaty after treaty (Maastricht, Dublin, Lisbon etc...) on which we have had no say.

Gordon Brown "promised" a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty....which really did erode UK powers/sovereignty...but he lied.

Cameron has said "no more treaties" if we remain....does anyone believe him any more than Brown?

There are reasons for and against remaining or leaving....some of these are vague and contentious...often very unclear with arguments and "facts" from each side being contradictory. Particularly around economics where predictions never seem to come out true.

If we are arguing about sovereignty as John Major seemed to be doing then there is no real argument. The facts are VERY clear.

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

£350m a week was your initial figure.

£55m a day is more accurate.

Both are figures you have shown you know to be hugely inflated and made no effort to explain or defend your use of figures you know are not true.

And this kind of tactics from Brexit camp is what is driving people away from it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

fact is we pay £55 million a day; we don't get a refund each day, we don't get interest on a daily amount, the UK is going to the dogs, we have dire NHS, dire housing, dire schooling, severely bad roads which are a danger, severe poverty, homes that are not insulated for the environment we live in, pensioners who cant afford to live (England) students who cant afford university fee's (England) and on a whole the UK is getting poorer, yet we pay 2nd highest into EU with very little returns

we don't even get support on flood protection although that is down to our government

Once we start to look after ourselves first - FIRST; and after the UK is up and running with all of the above mended, then we can start to pay and look after other countries

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By *iss_tressWoman over a year ago

London

"I thought he'd died for second there"

So did I!

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By *endrix30Man over a year ago

dudley

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

NO NO a thousand times NO!

We voted to remain in a "Common Market" which was basically a free trade zone, a trade deal.....which did not include free movement of people etc. nor many many of the rules imposed by Brussels.

Gordon Brown "promised" a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty....which really did erode UK powers/sovereignty...but he lied.

Cameron has said "no more treaties" if we remain....does anyone believe him any more than Brown?

If we are arguing about sovereignty as John Major seemed to be doing then there is no real argument. The facts are VERY clear."
Well said, you make some good points all of them true.

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

"fact is we pay £55 million a day;

Fact is, we DON'T, and never have.

I apologise. I assumed that you knew the facts and were mis-representing them.

Turns out you actually don't know the most very basic of facts.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"£350m a week was your initial figure.

£55m a day is more accurate.

Both are figures you have shown you know to be hugely inflated and made no effort to explain or defend your use of figures you know are not true.

And this kind of tactics from Brexit camp is what is driving people away from it. "

Actually 55m a day is only more accurate if you say working day (five day week) but even then it's higher than the real figure of 37.5m gross and about 20m net.

Personally I think the BREXIT argument that we pay too much would stand up well enough on 20m a day so why they feel the need to lie about it and claim 55m I don't know. Either they really don't know the facts or they simply feel that the end (leaving the EU) justifies the means (lying).

But then that seems to be the way they go about their whole argument. Another example is when they say "EU law is made by the faceless, unelected European bureaucrats of the EU commission". It's not true. The EU commission has no law making or legislative power; that lies with the EU council, EU Council of Minister and the EU Parliament, all of which are either directly elected or made up of representatives of the democratically elected governments of sovereign member countries. The EU commission can not "make law", it can only propose law that then is decided upon by the 3 bodies above.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Nope, he is not.

Although still undecided I thought it was a very put together essay and I am now struggling to see convincing arguments from the Brexit campaign. "

Do you know nothing of Europe and what is happening there? The unrest between nations and the rise of the far right? The future plans of the EU? The mass youth unemployment? The economic chaos of the eurozone and the impending crisis? Do you really think that immigration to this country is sustainable as it is? Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU? The Uk leaving would be better for all the countries of Europe, the EU would get the kick up the arse it needs and hopefully reform before others vote to leave

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Nope, he is not.

Although still undecided I thought it was a very put together essay and I am now struggling to see convincing arguments from the Brexit campaign.

Well said.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU? "

Do you dismiss the many genuinely leading economists who say we're better off staying? Do you dismiss the IMF, the OECD, the World Bank, every single reputable international financial organisation, the President of the USA and every other world leader, save Vladimir Putin, who has commented?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

What do you mean genuine? Tell me one of those institutions that doesn'nt have a vested interest in us staying in or isn't connected to/partly funded by the EU? And yes I dismissed what the president of the USA said because it was part bollocks and part lies

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

I said genuine in order to distinguish them from the 8 jokers - whose leader's highest office was as a short-term advisor to the Government of Malawi - who you describe as "leading" economists with "no vested interests".

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I still think the spitting image puppet was more real to himself than he is.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though. "

So how many of your 'genuine' economists thought we would be better off adopting the euro? All of them?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though.

So how many of your 'genuine' economists thought we would be better off adopting the euro? All of them?"

Yawn. I have no idea, and don't see the relevance.

To be honest, there's little point in debating with someone who sees everyone on their side as having "no vested interest", no matter who they are, whilst any dissenting idea is dismissed as scaremongering. It's very tiresome.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though.

So how many of your 'genuine' economists thought we would be better off adopting the euro? All of them?

Yawn. I have no idea, and don't see the relevance.

You don't see the relevance that they were wrong then too?

Or maybe they knew what was really best for the UK but put their own interests first?

It must be tiresome being wrong all the time

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though.

So how many of your 'genuine' economists thought we would be better off adopting the euro? All of them?

Yawn. I have no idea, and don't see the relevance.

You don't see the relevance that they were wrong then too?

Or maybe they knew what was really best for the UK but put their own interests first?

It must be tiresome being wrong all the time

Your glorious economic leader, good old Patrick Minford, has no vested interest you say? I think you'll find that he gets his funding from the Julian Hodge Bank which of course paid for the Julian Hodge Institute where good old Patrick works. Minford is also a paid economic adviser for the Julian Hodge bank. The Julian Hodge bank is owned by the Carlyle Trust and the MD of that is Jonathan Hodge who like his father before him is a rabid Eurosceptic.

Minford himself is famous for the accuracy of his forecasting - take his unflinching support for the community charge, which was a wonderful idea if you like rioting on the streets.

Or you can look at his Liverpool Model's prediction in 1997 of 3 million more unemployed because of new living wage - it didn't happen.

Then again do all of the eight Brexit economists agree with each other? No.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9394016c-0d43-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515.html#ixzz47Je7hPOU

Most — except Patrick Minford of Cardiff Business School — think the shock of leaving would be destabilising. Some privately express doubts that the UK should move towards unilateral free trade without seeking a deal with the EU

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though.

So how many of your 'genuine' economists thought we would be better off adopting the euro? All of them?"

Actually non of them. The argument for the Euro put forward by most people was:-

When the time is right and if it is Britain's best interests, then we should join. This was the policy of both the Conservative (John Major) government and the labour (Tony Blair-Gordon Brown) government.

The economists who supported Euro entry all argued that, if the Euro was set up correctly and if it worked then it would be in Britain's best interests to join. Non ever argued that we should join if it wasn't working and wasn't in Britain's best interests. That's why John Major negotiated the Euro opt-out and why Gordon Brown chose not to enter (one of the few things Gordon actually got spot-on right).

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though.

So how many of your 'genuine' economists thought we would be better off adopting the euro? All of them?

Yawn. I have no idea, and don't see the relevance.

You don't see the relevance that they were wrong then too?

Or maybe they knew what was really best for the UK but put their own interests first?

It must be tiresome being wrong all the time

Minford himself is famous for the accuracy of his forecasting - take his unflinching support for the community charge, which was a wonderful idea if you like rioting on the streets.

Or you can look at his Liverpool Model's prediction in 1997 of 3 million more unemployed because of new living wage - it didn't happen.

Then again do all of the eight Brexit economists agree with each other? No.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9394016c-0d43-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515.html#ixzz47Je7hPOU

Well said.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though.

So how many of your 'genuine' economists thought we would be better off adopting the euro? All of them?

Yawn. I have no idea, and don't see the relevance.

You don't see the relevance that they were wrong then too?

Or maybe they knew what was really best for the UK but put their own interests first?

It must be tiresome being wrong all the time

Minford himself is famous for the accuracy of his forecasting - take his unflinching support for the community charge, which was a wonderful idea if you like rioting on the streets.

Or you can look at his Liverpool Model's prediction in 1997 of 3 million more unemployed because of new living wage - it didn't happen.

Then again do all of the eight Brexit economists agree with each other? No.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9394016c-0d43-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515.html#ixzz47Je7hPOU

And there you have the difference. They don't all sing from the same hymn sheet.

And if you check properly there are economists from all around the world who say a Brexit would be good for the UK.

They could be wrong of course but so could the ones you blindly follow. Who knows for sure. But for the people of Europe a Brexit is more important than that

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

EU law's take primacy over UK laws with no right of appeal. Now that us very much like North Korea if what we're told is to be believed!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Hello all,

have those that believe in remaining in the E.U. looked at the future, not what the E.U. is now. Are you aware of the aspirations of the council who are leading the E.U. onto a single armed forces, single taxation, single bank and no, they couldn't care less about the wishes of the people of the varied countries, because they wish to eliminate the national identity. That has been the sole aim of the e.U. since the 1920s.

Re flooding it is a directive of the E.U. to increase natural flood plains to protect wild life habitat, tough if it destroys peoples homes.

Alec

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By *verysmileMan over a year ago

Canterbury

I have had enough of all of the non debates on this subject......I am moving to Greenland as long as there are some swingers there!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I have had enough of all of the non debates on this subject......I am moving to Greenland as long as there are some swingers there!!!"

Cool. And how much better did they do when they left the EEC?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though.

So how many of your 'genuine' economists thought we would be better off adopting the euro? All of them?

Yawn. I have no idea, and don't see the relevance.

You don't see the relevance that they were wrong then too?

Or maybe they knew what was really best for the UK but put their own interests first?

It must be tiresome being wrong all the time

Minford himself is famous for the accuracy of his forecasting - take his unflinching support for the community charge, which was a wonderful idea if you like rioting on the streets.

Or you can look at his Liverpool Model's prediction in 1997 of 3 million more unemployed because of new living wage - it didn't happen.

Then again do all of the eight Brexit economists agree with each other? No.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9394016c-0d43-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515.html#ixzz47Je7hPOU

And there you have the difference. They don't all sing from the same hymn sheet.

And if you check properly there are economists from all around the world who say a Brexit would be good for the UK.

They could be wrong of course but so could the ones you blindly follow. Who knows for sure. But for the people of Europe a Brexit is more important than that"

There are few issues that unite UK economists but Brexit is one of them: they overwhelmingly believe leaving the EU is bad for the country’s economic prospects.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1a86ab36-afbe-11e5-b955-1a1d298b6250.html#ixzz47KWcVdjL

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

Yes I do know something of Europe and I aware of the many issues and concerns sorounding it.

But simply put, I disagree with you and think leaving will be an economical mistake.

Can you tell me why it won't be?

I have etc to hear any kind of convincing argument that we will be financially better off out.

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By *icksfocus OP Man over a year ago

Pontefract

Yes I do know something of Europe and I aware of the many issues and concerns sorounding it.

But simply put, I disagree with you and think leaving will be an economical mistake.

Can you tell me why it won't be?

I have etc to hear any kind of convincing argument that we will be financially better off out. "

That's the thing. No one has a crystal ball to know if we will be better off. BUT we will be able to close our borders to any citizen of the EU

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

Yes I do know something of Europe and I aware of the many issues and concerns sorounding it.

But simply put, I disagree with you and think leaving will be an economical mistake.

Can you tell me why it won't be?

I have etc to hear any kind of convincing argument that we will be financially better off out.

That's the thing. No one has a crystal ball to know if we will be better off. BUT we will be able to close our borders to any citizen of the EU "

As, indeed, they would be able to close their borders to us, but I fail to see how closing Britain of to Europeans and Europe of to the British would actually make either Britain or Europe better of. Maybe you could explain it for me?

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By *icksfocus OP Man over a year ago

Pontefract

Have you seen how much unemployment and homelessness we have in this country? Not to mention the infrastructure that is crumbling. The nhs is dying under the sheer weight of people needing there services. We are a small nation that can not keep letting everyone in.

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

Ok. So here the thing.

It seems to break down to into two main issues. Economy and immigration.

True, no one can't tell the future so we are all guessing what it will be like BUT,

What we do know is that the countries that have been quoted as being examples of European countries working well outside the uk are Norway and Switzerland.

In both cases they pay more per head of population than we currently do into the EU in order to achieve trade deals with the EU.

In both cases they have higher percentages in immigration than we do despite having control of their borders and this is as a direct result of the agreeing to free movement in order to achieve trade deals with the EU.

So can anyone explain why our Contribution to the EU or our migration percentages will come down if we leave the EU.

Please keep it simple and to the point, I'm not bright enough to cope with complicated answers.

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By *icksfocus OP Man over a year ago

Pontefract

You hit the nail on the head when you said they agreed to allow free movement. We have to stop free movement. Do you think that Europe won't want to trade with us if we leave the eu? Of course they will. We joined the common market which was set up in the early 70's to enable trade between members. Not what the EU has turned into. It's like the EU are slowly taking over the world with out a bullet being fired

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

NO NO a thousand times NO!

We voted to remain in a "Common Market" which was basically a free trade zone, a trade deal.....which did not include free movement of people etc. nor many many of the rules imposed by Brussels.

Gordon Brown "promised" a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty....which really did erode UK powers/sovereignty...but he lied.

Cameron has said "no more treaties" if we remain....does anyone believe him any more than Brown?

If we are arguing about sovereignty as John Major seemed to be doing then there is no real argument. The facts are VERY clear."

There is a huge democratic deficit in the EU, even the leading figures on the remain side ADMIT it. Jeremy Corbyn says the EU is undemocratic and needs reform. He is 100% correct the EU is undemocratic, but his belief that it can be reformed is misguided. The EU cannot be reformed and we need to leave.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Lovely Peas, Norma....

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though.

So how many of your 'genuine' economists thought we would be better off adopting the euro? All of them?

Yawn. I have no idea, and don't see the relevance.

You don't see the relevance that they were wrong then too?

Or maybe they knew what was really best for the UK but put their own interests first?

It must be tiresome being wrong all the time

Minford himself is famous for the accuracy of his forecasting - take his unflinching support for the community charge, which was a wonderful idea if you like rioting on the streets.

Or you can look at his Liverpool Model's prediction in 1997 of 3 million more unemployed because of new living wage - it didn't happen.

Then again do all of the eight Brexit economists agree with each other? No.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9394016c-0d43-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515.html#ixzz47Je7hPOU

And there you have the difference. They don't all sing from the same hymn sheet.

And if you check properly there are economists from all around the world who say a Brexit would be good for the UK.

They could be wrong of course but so could the ones you blindly follow. Who knows for sure. But for the people of Europe a Brexit is more important than that"

The report that came out 2 days ago which outlined how Britian would be better off outside the EU from the 'economists for Brexit' group was a report put together by 8 leading top economists who are well respected in their field. To try to suggest it was just Patrick Minford on his own is misleading. Others who contributed to the report include Gerard Lyons, who was former chief economist at Standard charter bank, and Roger Bootle who is chairman of consultancy capital economics to name just a few of them. We have also seen on BBC Question Time over the past few months leading economists saying we need to leave the EU, such as Ruth Lea on THursday 7th April and Mark Littlewood who is director general of Institute of economic affairs on Thursday 17th March. Some former chancellor of the exchequers recommend a leave vote too, such as Norman Lamont, and Nigel Lawson.

news.sky.com/story/1686730/uk-better-off-outside-eu-economists-say

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

Nigel Lawson is an anagram of We All Sign On

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

"You hit the nail on the head when you said they agreed to allow free movement. We have to stop free movement. Do you think that Europe won't want to trade with us if we leave the eu? Of course they will. We joined the common market which was set up in the early 70's to enable trade between members. Not what the EU has turned into. It's like the EU are slowly taking over the world with out a bullet being fired "

But why would we be given a deal that no one else is? The EU would be crazy to do that.

Our exports will still need to be EU compliment and that costs money. We will not get free trade for nothing in return, surely? No one else does.

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By *adyboy-DaddyCouple over a year ago

Andover

That's should read "compliant"

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By *mmabluTV/TS over a year ago

upton wirral

"Even though it's a dramatic statement, he's not wrong, is he?"
It is a bit over the top

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Do you dismiss the claims of leading economists, who have no particular vested interests, that we would be better off out of the EU?

There may well be independently respected economists who support Brexit - not amongst that bunch of clowns though.

So how many of your 'genuine' economists thought we would be better off adopting the euro? All of them?

Yawn. I have no idea, and don't see the relevance.

You don't see the relevance that they were wrong then too?

Or maybe they knew what was really best for the UK but put their own interests first?

It must be tiresome being wrong all the time

Minford himself is famous for the accuracy of his forecasting - take his unflinching support for the community charge, which was a wonderful idea if you like rioting on the streets.

Or you can look at his Liverpool Model's prediction in 1997 of 3 million more unemployed because of new living wage - it didn't happen.

Then again do all of the eight Brexit economists agree with each other? No.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9394016c-0d43-11e6-b41f-0beb7e589515.html#ixzz47Je7hPOU

And there you have the difference. They don't all sing from the same hymn sheet.

And if you check properly there are economists from all around the world who say a Brexit would be good for the UK.

They could be wrong of course but so could the ones you blindly follow. Who knows for sure. But for the people of Europe a Brexit is more important than that

news.sky.com/story/1686730/uk-better-off-outside-eu-economists-say "

I don't see Ruth Lea or Mark Littlewood named as authors on the report, do you? Minford however is an editor of it as well as contributing a section. . Now someone was trying to make out that he is independent. He isn't. Nor is professor congdon who of course stood for leader of ukip not so long ago.

You could also judge the quality of their background research by the references they give. Most are to their own work because they find it very difficult to cite any other published economist that supports them.

They may be economists but they are outliers in the economic community and they are in no way independent.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Surely though we democratically voted s to be part of the EU and as a member state, we then democratically vote on the laws as the govern the EU. It's still a democracy. Just a bigger one.

I'm not arguing in or out, just trying to see the wood for the trees.

NO NO a thousand times NO!

We voted to remain in a "Common Market" which was basically a free trade zone, a trade deal.....which did not include free movement of people etc. nor many many of the rules imposed by Brussels.

Gordon Brown "promised" a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty....which really did erode UK powers/sovereignty...but he lied.

Cameron has said "no more treaties" if we remain....does anyone believe him any more than Brown?

If we are arguing about sovereignty as John Major seemed to be doing then there is no real argument. The facts are VERY clear.

We need to stay and vote in meps who will use their democratic mandate to do a job for the people of the U.K. Not some bunch of has beens and malcontents who are only interested in claiming their expenses and making an alliance with far right parties.