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By *buse my girlfriend OP Couple over a year ago

Derby

Hi everyone. Sorry to be thick, and also apologies if this has already been discussed, but can anyone explain the pros and cons of leaving/staying from a purely factual and non-biased view? I don't get it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Please not another one

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Hi everyone. Sorry to be thick, and also apologies if this has already been discussed, but can anyone explain the pros and cons of leaving/staying from a purely factual and non-biased view? I don't get it

xx"

Impossible, there are excellent factual reasons to both stay in and leave, so the only differentials would be opinions which could be clawed as biased.

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By *ittie4UCouple over a year ago

Watford

xx"

Ha, ha.

Light blue touch paper and stand well back....

[Do fireworks still have that written on them, or is that just a thing from my childhood?]

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

oooooOOOoooo someone doesn't know how to use google

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

xx"

There is NO factual non-biased view, I am afraid. You form an opinion based on what you think about the options.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

Shag, get back in your bush. And please return your profile picture to your traditional body shot.

Sorry for that.

It is an EU regulation, you know.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

Back of the queue, lol. That means we'll be 2nd then. The only trade deal America are currently conducting is the TTIP deal with the EU. I would say the TTIP deal is one of the reasons why we need to leave the EU as it will lead to privatisation of the NHS.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

if we leave then any owners of motor vehicles that are made in the EU will by law have to send their identifying insignia back 'over there'..

we will be homogenised..

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

xx"

Best to do your own independent research online OP. All you will get on here is opinions from people who want to leave and opinions from people who want to stay in.

The Britain stronger in Europe website will give a biased view to recommend staying in the EU. The vote Leave website and the Grassroots out (Go campaign) website will give a biased view to recommend leaving the EU.

I have looked at all of them and done some other research, I come to the conclusion we need to leave the EU.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

Best to do your own independent research online OP. All you will get on here is opinions from people who want to leave and opinions from people who want to stay in.

I have looked at all of them and done some other research, I come to the conclusion we need to leave the EU. "

but but your biased..

ignore him OP..

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Best to do your own independent research online OP. All you will get on here is opinions from people who want to leave and opinions from people who want to stay in.

I have looked at all of them and done some other research, I come to the conclusion we need to leave the EU.

but but your biased..

ignore him OP..

I did just tell the OP to do their own independent research, I also gave the names of websites for each side in the referendum campaign. How is that biased?

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By *phroditeWoman over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

ignore him OP..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

Shag, get back in your bush. And please return your profile picture to your traditional body shot.

Sorry for that.

It is an EU regulation, you know."
Good one and yeah I sometimes like to rotate it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

People can still travel in Europe after we leave the EU. British people travelled in Europe before we joined the EU, they can still do so after we leave. Non EU citizens from all over the world currently travel in Europe. "
That is right and as well there was an interview with farage about it today, he said America is doing deals with austrailia in much shorter time and no 5 to 10 years like he said to the uk.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

Best to do your own independent research online OP. All you will get on here is opinions from people who want to leave and opinions from people who want to stay in.

I have looked at all of them and done some other research, I come to the conclusion we need to leave the EU.

but but your biased..

ignore him OP..

I did just tell the OP to do their own independent research, I also gave the names of websites for each side in the referendum campaign. How is that biased? "

by any definition giving ones opinion in a yes/no or in this case leave/stay has to be biassed..

you could have left it (till you put in your stance it was neutral and good advice) then it would have had no bias..

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

People can still travel in Europe after we leave the EU. British people travelled in Europe before we joined the EU, they can still do so after we leave. Non EU citizens from all over the world currently travel in Europe. That is right and as well there was an interview with farage about it today, he said America is doing deals with austrailia in much shorter time and no 5 to 10 years like he said to the uk."

The TTIP deal was also discussed on the Jeremy Vine BBC radio 2 show today.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Best to do your own independent research online OP. All you will get on here is opinions from people who want to leave and opinions from people who want to stay in.

I have looked at all of them and done some other research, I come to the conclusion we need to leave the EU.

but but your biased..

ignore him OP..

I did just tell the OP to do their own independent research, I also gave the names of websites for each side in the referendum campaign. How is that biased?

by any definition giving ones opinion in a yes/no or in this case leave/stay has to be biassed..

you could have left it (till you put in your stance it was neutral and good advice) then it would have had no bias..

I think the comment I made earlier in the thread when I quoted Shag tonight kind of gave my stance away but nevermind.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

Wrong sooo wrong - The USA signed like the most of the world (excluding North Korea and some others) the WTO agreements.

Therefore if a country applies for trading agreements with another country this application must be dealt with in max. 3 years...

Dear little President Obama pushed that through himself because China was stalling trade agreements with the USA....

Shame he has a short memory but then again what do you expect from people who never read history and comment that it was because of the USA that WWI and II were won...as if ..

Both times they waited to see what would happen; shaking the little tree of history a certain US Ambassador Kennedy(ex bootlegger) recommended not to help Britain in 1940 as the war was lost and Germany was to rule....(Short note General Motors,Ford, Coke and others delivered until 1942 their products to Germany and that officially so much for trade sanctions).

Hmmmm let us all get out our history books and sit down to read about the WTO (World Trading Organ. in Geneva) and the time between 1900-2015

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

xx"

There is no simple answer. There are no facts. It is all speculation.

In the end, it all comes down to whether you think the EU is an economical model that will survive.

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple over a year ago

canterbury

if u listen to posh boy Cameron if we leave we will all starve and will be killed by terror groups,or even worsewe will nor be friends with the usa.....vote out

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Easy Op -

In - bad

Out - good

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By *eMontresMan over a year ago

Halesowen

TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research"

It is the only reason that makes we want to vote leave and I'm in the remain camp.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

OP, the Newsnight debates have been interesting. They are doing a different subject relevant to the referendum each week.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

I think you could spend a lot of time determining which facts and figures are important, before you go about the lengthy process of getting the data. Then you'd need to assimilate and comprehend it, followed by your decision.

I think you're doing the right thing though. Making a decision of importance based upon emotions isn't fair.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research"

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

It is the only reason that makes we want to vote leave and I'm in the remain camp.

"
.

It's the good cop bad cop routine!.

You've seen it in the films... Oh look im the good politican, I'm gonna love you and give you everything you want but I just want ttip... But my friend over there, he's the bad politican, he's not going to be as nice as me, he's gonna work you over and still sign you up to ttip!!... Just sign the confession and we'll go easy on you

I belive the response should be... Fuck you copper, I'm no squealer and fuck your ttip confession

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway. "

The Commission must request an authorisation to negotiate a trade agreement with a trading partner from the Council, which sets out the general objectives to be achieved.

While the negotiations are going on the Commission reports regularly to Council and the European Parliament.

Once the Commission has completed the negotiations, it presents the deal to the Council and the European Parliament. They are the ones to formally agree the outcome and prepare the way for signature and ratification of the deal with the trading partner.

The trade agreement enters into force once it is fully ratified but parts of the agreement can be provisionally applied if the Member States agree to do so.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Free trade, trade deals, money!!!

Yeah right so all this extra trade will be sooo fabulous for you peasants sorry I mean citizens that we've fully kept you upto date on the process, we even brought out working groups to decide what type of trade deal YOU wanted and that's how democracies work and all... Oh Wait no.

What we actually did, is consult the CEOs of all the multi nationals about what they WANT, we let them write the trade deals and then we kept it even secret from your elected representatives, well we did until it got leaked so now we let your meps read it... In a secure steel room, and their not allowed to write anything down obviously, so we take pencils and pens of them and such.. Yeah coz that's HOW democracies work!.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Free trade, trade deals, money!!!

Why should anyone be surprised that this is how it is with Jean Claude Juncker head of the EU. He has a long and well documented history of helping and facilitating multinational companies in tax evasion/avoidance in his home country of Luxembourg when he was Prime Minister there.

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By *laskan lovers 1984Couple over a year ago

West midlands

xx"

The biggest downside to staying in the EU that I can see is the transatlantic trade and investment partnership (TTIP)

This would be very bad for the UK .

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

The biggest downside to staying in the EU that I can see is the transatlantic trade and investment partnership (TTIP)

This would be very bad for the UK .

A trade deal that is getting on for ten years in the making and which is very favourable to the USA.

Fear not, once Britain is free from the shackles of the EU and great again we will do a better trade deal in about two years and it won't favour the US at all. It will be completely one sided and give the UK everything it wants without giving the US anything in return because.... Well because Britain is grate, and we had an empire and well.... Foreigners are just stupid.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Non EU citizens from all over the world currently travel in Europe."

Bless. You managed to type that without having a conniption.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm impressed...its staying civilised...for now.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

xx"

No one knows either way past the next few years.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The biggest downside to staying in the EU that I can see is the transatlantic trade and investment partnership (TTIP)

This would be very bad for the UK .

A trade deal that is getting on for ten years in the making and which is very favourable to the USA.

Or it could simply be more specific and focused on services as it wpulsnt have to cover such a diverse range of economies and products

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Pro's of staying:-

Similar to a sexless marriage, you have the familiarity of the same...

Pro's of leaving:-

Well that would be getting the divorce!!

Having tried to reform the relationship and had more promises broken, by leaving we have our freedom back, our money and back in charge of our direction.

Plenty more fish in the sea, sticking with the analogy we can date again, make friends and put all of our time & energy back into ourselves, without the constant let down of the EU taking us for everything we give, and providing an insult on return...

Brexit/Divorce will lead to a brighter future

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

""Non EU citizens from all over the world currently travel in Europe."

You are joking, right? Must be.

That is true but there are restrictions:

Without an EU passport, like a USA or Canadian, or others, one can only be inside the Schengen Zone 90 days out of the last 180 days.

If you exceed the 180 days upon exit of the SZ the immigration officer can put you on a plane for your country of origin, fine you money, and place a stamp in your passport that can ban you from entering the SZ (I think up to three years or maybe more for further violations).

In case you don't know, Republic of Ireland (give you 90 days in) and the U.K. (Give you a possible 180 days in) are not in Schengen.

Schengen is not only the core countries like France, Germany, etc but includes Iceland and a few others.

The Rules were quite different prior to the EU.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The EU is a failing organisation just as the eurozone is a failing political monetary experiment. The rise of extreme political parties throughout Europe shows peoples ill feeling and dissatisfaction with the EU and unrest will only worsen. There will soon be another recession/depression across Europe and the only way out of it will be for Germany to reinstate the Deutschmark so that the value of the Euro in the southern 'basket case' economies falls, providing them with a boost for exports and tourism. We are better off getting out of this mess

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By *ost SockMan over a year ago

West Wales and Cardiff

In the spirit of spreading Fab-love around, can I just say - I'm a definite "Bremainer", but I'm very impressed with the fair and well researched posts from many of the Brexit camp on Fab. Centaur is a good example.

Respect, people *fist bump*

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Capitalism, is a system with contradictions built into it.

The system works on all parties and all people in a pervasive way, there's no point wailing on about saving homeless people or the nhs or jobs or equality, the system requires these, it's designed to self fail, it's designed to make business move abroad, to seek lower wages, to wreak havoc on your environment even though the contradiction is that you want wealth equality and an environment that's fit to live in.

You can't solve capitalism by unions or trade deals, you can only fight against its pervasiveness by Activism and that requires your politicans who make decisions to be as close to you as possible.

The minute they get out of sight out of mind, then capitalism kicks in and you'll get ttip deals, for it demands profit and profit means somebody wins and somebody loses!.

Competition requires greed.

So by all means choose capitalism, choose trade deals, choose the eu but please let's not go through the constant contradictions of... Oh the third world

Oh the homeless

Oh the NHS being privatised

Oh the planets fucked...

Like many people, I honestly don't know the answer to the problem but I can see the problem and the answer is not more of the status quo, because the status quo is profit at any cost

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

You can still work in EU also, once we leave

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

You realise it's basically a tongue in cheek thing that if we leave the EU the Tories will most likely try to push TTIP negotiations through within a year of Britain being 'Independant', right? Cameron tried it earlier but as we are in the EU the EU was not happy about a member state negotiating it without the rest doing so at the same time.

Many Tory Eurosceptics have voiced that TTIP is a good thing and leaving would allow us to 'strengthen our pan-Atlantic ties' with America through TTIP and other pro-corporate business deals.

In short the regular British person is screwed either way of the referendum on TTIP for the most part with not clear certainty. If we stay in the EU, it might get pushed through, though currently it wont as there are pan European protests in and out of government and in the commission on the matter.

If we leave then Theresa May and Cameron will aim to scrap the European Human Rights Laws in favour of a shoddy Bill of British Rights. Following this Westminster will most likely have the the motion of TTIP put to it, and considering it doesn't have to be voted upon by a majority of MP's the Tories will push it through.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

Considering that the OP posted once and hasn't been back, I'm wondering if it is the equivalent of chucking a hand grenade into a room and then closing the door

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

Many Tory Eurosceptics have voiced that TTIP is a good thing and leaving would allow us to 'strengthen our pan-Atlantic ties' with America through TTIP and other pro-corporate business deals.

That's just not true, the Tories tried to push through poll tax, when you annoy enough citizens with your shite, what you get is a physical pushback.

Margret Thatcher paid with her job on the poll tax debarcle because people rioted outside Westminster..

Of course it's entirely possible the crowds will book trains and planes and do the same in Brussels but somehow I think they know it's less likely.

You know why the first casualty of the panama scandal was the Icelandic PM.... Because he lives next door to the folks who are bloody angry... If he lived and worked in Copenhagen, I'd guess he'd still be pm of Iceland

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

There is no Simple sum you can do to choose;

It's not like comparing one car over another ; Even if you ask 50 people to choose which car is better; they will all disagree, because different things are important to different people.

You may be able to form your own opinion, based on research, but no-one can PROVE that we will be better off or worse off in or out.

You can't even prove, that we would have been better or worse off if we had not joined in the first place.

Some of us think we should remain with the EU and that it is important to collaborate with an organisation ( and even to compromise some things, for consensus) . Others are convinced that this gives away our independence and that this is more important.

Sadly, much of the debate is backed by internal Tory party infighting ( Boris is only on the out campaign because he knows , whatever the outcome, it will enhance his chances of being Tory leader), or it is fueled by certain elements who play on natural British xenophobia.

You will just have to read read, watch and listen to debates, but if you know little about it now; you have very little time to find out enough to make an informed decision on polling day

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By *illbillMan over a year ago

dublin

Britain first....credible or crazy?

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple over a year ago

canterbury

ask yourself ???? WHAT HAS THE EU DONE FOR US IN THE LAST 30 YEARS....-uck all but cost us all money .....

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"By leaving. England will be back in the queue for dealings with america.

What will happen to gibraltar and as well as scotland want to be independent?

By being in, it would be better with trading and easier to travel in europe.

Many Tory Eurosceptics have voiced that TTIP is a good thing and leaving would allow us to 'strengthen our pan-Atlantic ties' with America through TTIP and other pro-corporate business deals.

That's just not true, the Tories tried to push through poll tax, when you annoy enough citizens with your shite, what you get is a physical pushback.

Margret Thatcher paid with her job on the poll tax debarcle because people rioted outside Westminster..

Of course it's entirely possible the crowds will book trains and planes and do the same in Brussels but somehow I think they know it's less likely.

I agree, the further removed and distant those who hold the power are from the people then the more shite they can get away with. There is a huge democratic deficit in the EU, those who hold the power in the commission may as well be living on another planet. We can hold our MP's to account here. The Labour supporters on here seem to keep saying if we leave the EU then the tories will just do this, that and the other anyway. They must have a real lack of faith in their party if they don't believe Labour will ever form another government ever again who can change things to their liking outside of the EU.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"ask yourself ???? WHAT HAS THE EU DONE FOR US IN THE LAST 30 YEARS....-uck all but cost us all money ....."

If we stay in the EU our financial contribution is set to rise again by 2020.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My reasons for voting LEAVE:

(a) 70% of our laws are made in Brussels and NOT subjected to Parliamentary debate.

(b) We give Brussels £350 million per week. We could spend that money more judiciously ourselves!

(c) We cannot control the movement into our country of anyone with an EU passport. That includes ex-convicts and/or illegal immigrants who have acquired real or forged passports.

(d) Turkey (population 80 million) is now a de facto member of the EU so expect a few million more muslims to come here in the years to come if we remain.

(e) For the 19th year in a row, the EU's Court of Auditors has refused to give a clean bill of health to the EU's accounts for the year ending 31st December 2013. The EU's Court of Auditors registered an 'adverse opinion' about the legality and regularity of EU payments, blasting them as being "materially affected by error" - with almost €7 billion being paid out improperly.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway. "

TTIP has been and is currently being pushed hard especially by the UK Conservative party within Europe. They have welcomed the Investor-State Dispute Settlement mechanism, which allows businesses to sue governments directly, such as our own, bypassing the court system.

This Investor-State Dispute Settlement mechanism could enable our taxpayers' money to be fleeced by businesses who don't get things their way. It's part and parcel of how this government isn't concerned in the slightest if we give away power, as long as the financial winners are amongst their friends.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Hello Omaha,

I'm with you on your reasons but the £350 million is not available if we leave, a large part is already spoken for and I believe the figure of 4 to 6 billion per annum (Approx 100 million, still worth having) is what we would save nett.

Also, the EU will continue on it's supranational aim with single defence force, single taxation, single bank basically a single government of all of the member states. It's getting worse and it's essential that we grasp this chance to separate from the EU.

Alec

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

As has already been discussed in the thread, we can hold our MP's to account much better here. If the tories did what you just said they would face a huge backlash from the public and we would most likely get a Labour government at the next general election who would oppose a domestic style UK/USA TTIP deal and a Labour government could renegotiate it or discontinue or null and void it if they want.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

Take a look at Greece, they forced what three or four governments within a year or two by protest!.

If you get a large enough protest the incumbents are always forced to either back down, change leader or go... The alternative is Syria, where you hold power no matter what the will of the people!.

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By *ngel n tedCouple over a year ago

maidstone

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

This

Sued in private courts for projected loss of earnings, does kinda give them the right to....possibly bankrupt a country and own it? Not saying that will happen, but it could, corporations instead of countries maybe?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"ask yourself ???? WHAT HAS THE EU DONE FOR US IN THE LAST 30 YEARS....-uck all but cost us all money .....

If we stay in the EU our financial contribution is set to rise again by 2020. "

That's cute given that the nett contribution for 2015/2016 was £10.79 billion due to fall to £9.64 billion in 2019/2020.

Since 9.64 is less than 10.79 the UK contribution is due to fall by 2020.

Don't let arithmetic get in the way of a good lie though.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Considering that the OP posted once and hasn't been back, I'm wondering if it is the equivalent of chucking a hand grenade into a room and then closing the door

Ive been known to do that myself

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

This

I think you're right. We could be held to random or hld in debt to any one or a collection of mega corporations.

The conservatives have been a big part of the driving force of TTIP in Europe, ensuring that it is fully secret from us all.

Due to this secrecy I don't think the UK electorate will ever have much clue about who has been responsible.

As with our health, prevention is better than cure. If you contact your MP today I think you'll find that 90% of conservatives will support TTIP. If things went pear shaped, many of them would be long gone anyway. Their pensions etc will be safe. If we remain in Europe then all countries would have to agree changes. If we leave Europea, Cameron, Johnson and all other conservative potential leaders are fully wanting this deal. We'd possibly get a worse deal than Europe will but make no mistake, Boris is completely behind trip. They are right wingers and prefer unregulated markets.

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By *ost SockMan over a year ago

West Wales and Cardiff

"ask yourself ???? WHAT HAS THE EU DONE FOR US IN THE LAST 30 YEARS....-uck all but cost us all money ....."

That's absolutely not true.

Don't get me wrong, there is much wrong with the EU and I can understand arguments for leaving - there's posters in this thread who provide those, backed up by evidence.

If I lived in the leafy Home Counties, I'd maybe feel a bit differently, but areas hit worst by

Industrial decline have had masses of European money pumped in, especially Objective One areas.

Wales is a net beneficiary from Europe. Don't get me wrong, I know we pay in more than we receive as the UK (and I'm pro-Union), so there is undoubtedly an issue there, but certain areas have seen big benefits.

Now, you probably think I'm happy with my home area relying on EU money. I'm actually not, and i think Wales, and the U.K, needs to be more entrepreneurial and forward thinking in order to foster economic development.

There's no doubt that parts of Europe that were heavily industrialised faced particular problems over the last 30/40 years. Those areas have benefitted. Would a UK government use some of that £350 million a week to regenerate these areas? They showed little appetite for it in the past, leaving it to the market to rule.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"ask yourself ???? WHAT HAS THE EU DONE FOR US IN THE LAST 30 YEARS....-uck all but cost us all money .....

If we stay in the EU our financial contribution is set to rise again by 2020.

That's cute given that the nett contribution for 2015/2016 was £10.79 billion due to fall to £9.64 billion in 2019/2020.

Since 9.64 is less than 10.79 the UK contribution is due to fall by 2020.

Don't let arithmetic get in the way of a good lie though."

Figures from the independent full fact website show the following...

In 2015 we paid 18 billion nett into the EU.

We got back a rebate of 5 billion.

18 billion - 5 billion leaves us with a bill of 13 billion.

The government office for Budget responsibility figures predicted in 2015 the UK contribution to the EU would increase by 3.1 billion over the next 5 years. This is due to the UK economy outperforming the struggling eurozone countries which means we usually cop for a bigger bill than expected to help out the other underperforming countries within the EU (eurozone).

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3154628/Britain-punished-outpacing-Europe-contributions--Brussels-leap-3-1billion-five-years.html

and also here....

www.thecommentator.com/article/5968/uk_s_success_means_eu_contributions_rise_by_over_3_billion

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

This

I think you're right. We could be held to random or hld in debt to any one or a collection of mega corporations.

The conservatives have been a big part of the driving force of TTIP in Europe, ensuring that it is fully secret from us all.

Due to this secrecy I don't think the UK electorate will ever have much clue about who has been responsible.

ttip is not the love child of boris Johnson!.

It's been in the pipeline for ten years!! Now remind me again who was in charge ten years ago?.

The EU have been lauding ttip for ages, I can direct you to a whole host of eu employed economists that have given lecture after lecture on the "benefits" of it.

Barack Obama for the democrats has been pushing for it where as Donald trumps against it!!.

Every bad idea is not always the right wing Tories fault.

The centre/left wing EU government is quite able to draft a bag of shit like ttip because capitalism is insidious, every mother Teresa gave in to it.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, which is why you need the people in power to be

1 transparent

2 as close by as possible so you can literally kick them out

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

This

I think you're right. We could be held to random or hld in debt to any one or a collection of mega corporations.

The conservatives have been a big part of the driving force of TTIP in Europe, ensuring that it is fully secret from us all.

Due to this secrecy I don't think the UK electorate will ever have much clue about who has been responsible.

ttip is not the love child of boris Johnson!.

It's been in the pipeline for ten years!! Now remind me again who was in charge ten years ago?.

The EU have been lauding ttip for ages, I can direct you to a whole host of eu employed economists that have given lecture after lecture on the "benefits" of it.

Barack Obama for the democrats has been pushing for it where as Donald trumps against it!!.

Every bad idea is not always the right wing Tories fault.

The centre/left wing EU government is quite able to draft a bag of shit like ttip because capitalism is insidious, every mother Teresa gave in to it.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, which is why you need the people in power to be

1 transparent

2 as close by as possible so you can literally kick them out"

I enjoy reading your posts and you are right on a lot of things but wrong about capitalism. It is a human condition and you could no sooner curtail it as you could stop people shaggin. People will always want more or better or more than someone else, that is why communism doesn't work, it just creates a black market. And its not a bad thing for people to be like that. Without capitalism there would be no innovation. No advancement in technology, medicine, travel etc etc, anything really

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Britain first....credible or crazy?"

Just go on their Facebook page. It's full of fucking morons.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

This

I think you're right. We could be held to random or hld in debt to any one or a collection of mega corporations.

The conservatives have been a big part of the driving force of TTIP in Europe, ensuring that it is fully secret from us all.

Due to this secrecy I don't think the UK electorate will ever have much clue about who has been responsible.

ttip is not the love child of boris Johnson!.

It's been in the pipeline for ten years!! Now remind me again who was in charge ten years ago?.

The EU have been lauding ttip for ages, I can direct you to a whole host of eu employed economists that have given lecture after lecture on the "benefits" of it.

Barack Obama for the democrats has been pushing for it where as Donald trumps against it!!.

Every bad idea is not always the right wing Tories fault.

The centre/left wing EU government is quite able to draft a bag of shit like ttip because capitalism is insidious, every mother Teresa gave in to it.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, which is why you need the people in power to be

1 transparent

2 as close by as possible so you can literally kick them out

All systems work on human traits, that's the idea of them, I didn't say you wouldn't get innovation from it nor did I say you wouldn't get wealth.

What I said is, it acts insidiously on everything and is always destined to fail as it's full of contradictions!.

No business wishes to employ people, it's purpose is to make as much profit as possible, it will always look to employ less and less people and pay less and less money on outgoings (wages) it does all this despite it being bad for people, it looks for returns on every expenditure and a gazillion is never as much as a gazillion and one...

The truth about capitalism is, it cares not about you, wether it kills you, it gives you cancer, blows your house up or destroys your entire family, wipes out a species or destroys a planet...

Those things are the job of the people who regulate capitalism, now can you see how it works?.

Let me put it another way...

Which one generates more profit.

A cure for HIV or

A drug that stops it but you have to take everyday for life?.

Some things aren't random chance?.

Banks bankrupting themselves with debt?.

Industry wreaking it's own market.

Capitalism is like Satan, it will give lots of goodies but strip you of your soul, not for any noble reason mind, just to sell you some shit you've already got

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

This

I think you're right. We could be held to random or hld in debt to any one or a collection of mega corporations.

The conservatives have been a big part of the driving force of TTIP in Europe, ensuring that it is fully secret from us all.

Due to this secrecy I don't think the UK electorate will ever have much clue about who has been responsible.

ttip is not the love child of boris Johnson!.

It's been in the pipeline for ten years!! Now remind me again who was in charge ten years ago?.

The EU have been lauding ttip for ages, I can direct you to a whole host of eu employed economists that have given lecture after lecture on the "benefits" of it.

Barack Obama for the democrats has been pushing for it where as Donald trumps against it!!.

Every bad idea is not always the right wing Tories fault.

The centre/left wing EU government is quite able to draft a bag of shit like ttip because capitalism is insidious, every mother Teresa gave in to it.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, which is why you need the people in power to be

1 transparent

2 as close by as possible so you can literally kick them out

All systems work on human traits, that's the idea of them, I didn't say you wouldn't get innovation from it nor did I say you wouldn't get wealth.

What I said is, it acts insidiously on everything and is always destined to fail as it's full of contradictions!.

The truth about capitalism is, it cares not about you, wether it kills you, it gives you cancer, blows your house up or destroys your entire family, wipes out a species or destroys a planet...

Those things are the job of the people who regulate capitalism, now can you see how it works?.

Let me put it another way...

Which one generates more profit.

A cure for HIV or

A drug that stops it but you have to take everyday for life?.

Some things aren't random chance?.

Banks bankrupting themselves with debt?.

Industry wreaking it's own market.

Capitalism is like Satan, it will give lots of goodies but strip you of your soul, not for any noble reason mind, just to sell you some shit you've already got

Well, although this was originally a "Stay or leave" topic, what do you suggest as a viable alternative?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Let me put it another way... We often ask who buy rarely why?.

Why cover up 100s of thousands of deaths from smoking for decades?.

Asbestos, was known about for decades yet used widely in industry.

Ford built the pinto car in the 70s that they knew would explode if crashed into on the right angle, they even knew how to cure it but despite this continued selling it for 7 years.. Why?.

Were all these thousands of people who were aware of these things Satan in disguise, were they truly evil people happy to see people die horrible deaths...

Today we for forty years that the fossil fuel industry has been spending hundreds and hundreds of millions a year... On flatly denying what their own payed scientists told them in a memo in 1982... There's no bias there, they hired experts to find out what effect c02 was having... And those experts told them, your business is going to kill the planet... Capitalism doesn't fucking care and it acts on humans insidiously to not care either, destroying your planet is not a human instinct, it's a capitalist instinct

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

This

I think you're right. We could be held to random or hld in debt to any one or a collection of mega corporations.

The conservatives have been a big part of the driving force of TTIP in Europe, ensuring that it is fully secret from us all.

Due to this secrecy I don't think the UK electorate will ever have much clue about who has been responsible.

ttip is not the love child of boris Johnson!.

It's been in the pipeline for ten years!! Now remind me again who was in charge ten years ago?.

The EU have been lauding ttip for ages, I can direct you to a whole host of eu employed economists that have given lecture after lecture on the "benefits" of it.

Barack Obama for the democrats has been pushing for it where as Donald trumps against it!!.

Every bad idea is not always the right wing Tories fault.

The centre/left wing EU government is quite able to draft a bag of shit like ttip because capitalism is insidious, every mother Teresa gave in to it.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, which is why you need the people in power to be

1 transparent

2 as close by as possible so you can literally kick them out

All systems work on human traits, that's the idea of them, I didn't say you wouldn't get innovation from it nor did I say you wouldn't get wealth.

What I said is, it acts insidiously on everything and is always destined to fail as it's full of contradictions!.

The truth about capitalism is, it cares not about you, wether it kills you, it gives you cancer, blows your house up or destroys your entire family, wipes out a species or destroys a planet...

Those things are the job of the people who regulate capitalism, now can you see how it works?.

Let me put it another way...

Which one generates more profit.

A cure for HIV or

A drug that stops it but you have to take everyday for life?.

Some things aren't random chance?.

Banks bankrupting themselves with debt?.

Industry wreaking it's own market.

Capitalism is like Satan, it will give lots of goodies but strip you of your soul, not for any noble reason mind, just to sell you some shit you've already got

You buy the shit don't you?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Let me put it another way... We often ask who buy rarely why?.

Why cover up 100s of thousands of deaths from smoking for decades?.

Asbestos, was known about for decades yet used widely in industry.

Ford built the pinto car in the 70s that they knew would explode if crashed into on the right angle, they even knew how to cure it but despite this continued selling it for 7 years.. Why?.

Were all these thousands of people who were aware of these things Satan in disguise, were they truly evil people happy to see people die horrible deaths...

Well, quite apart from the Pinto car, your alternative economic model?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well in 1976 the imf bailed out Britain financially now after 30 thirty years in the eu its the 5th largest economy and world financial centre so maybe you should ask yourself why am I not doing more research?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 26/04/16 19:12:54]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Well in 1976 the imf bailed out Britain financially now after 30 thirty years in the eu its the 5th largest economy and world financial centre so maybe you should ask yourself why am I not doing more research?"

Why is he not doing more research?

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By *ymph and ManicCouple over a year ago

North East

Must add to the thread and say it's been a welcomed eye opener as to the well researched and informed messages from all sides of the leave /stay forum ... very intelligent and well thought views from a suprisingly wide cross section of fabster .. congratulations ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

This

I think you're right. We could be held to random or hld in debt to any one or a collection of mega corporations.

The conservatives have been a big part of the driving force of TTIP in Europe, ensuring that it is fully secret from us all.

Due to this secrecy I don't think the UK electorate will ever have much clue about who has been responsible.

ttip is not the love child of boris Johnson!.

It's been in the pipeline for ten years!! Now remind me again who was in charge ten years ago?.

The EU have been lauding ttip for ages, I can direct you to a whole host of eu employed economists that have given lecture after lecture on the "benefits" of it.

Barack Obama for the democrats has been pushing for it where as Donald trumps against it!!.

Every bad idea is not always the right wing Tories fault.

The centre/left wing EU government is quite able to draft a bag of shit like ttip because capitalism is insidious, every mother Teresa gave in to it.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, which is why you need the people in power to be

1 transparent

2 as close by as possible so you can literally kick them out

All systems work on human traits, that's the idea of them, I didn't say you wouldn't get innovation from it nor did I say you wouldn't get wealth.

What I said is, it acts insidiously on everything and is always destined to fail as it's full of contradictions!.

The truth about capitalism is, it cares not about you, wether it kills you, it gives you cancer, blows your house up or destroys your entire family, wipes out a species or destroys a planet...

Those things are the job of the people who regulate capitalism, now can you see how it works?.

Let me put it another way...

Which one generates more profit.

A cure for HIV or

A drug that stops it but you have to take everyday for life?.

Some things aren't random chance?.

Banks bankrupting themselves with debt?.

Industry wreaking it's own market.

Capitalism is like Satan, it will give lots of goodies but strip you of your soul, not for any noble reason mind, just to sell you some shit you've already got

Well, although this was originally a "Stay or leave" topic, what do you suggest as a viable alternative?"
.

I already said higher up, there is no alternative, I don't have any answers for the problem. I just know that the only way to curtail it is to watch it carefully from close to.

Which is why I want my government as close by as possible.

It's not that I disagree with the EU concept,I actually think it's the greatest idea in the modern era.

it's just that for me, how I see capitalism working personally...I can how it will be used for the worse.

The most peaceful and happiest countries are often the most democratic and relatively small population ones, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, new Zealand.. They never go to war,There often prosperous and have a good equity share!.

In my dealings with local councils I've rarely if ever found a local councillor who's lived there for years acting like a cunt to his local residents... Why is just obvious, they have to shop with them and drink in the pub with them... They care about them and even more, they care what others think about them.. It's a kinda social socialism

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'd think it would be a good idea to do research yes?.

Britain didn't take any money from the imf and it was the 5th largest economy in 1976! And London has always been the financial Centre of the world!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well, although this was originally a "Stay or leave" topic, what do you suggest as a viable alternative?.

I already said higher up, there is no alternative, I don't have any answers for the problem. I just know that the only way to curtail it is to watch it carefully from close to.

Which is why I want my government as close by as possible.

It's not that I disagree with the EU concept,I actually think it's the greatest idea in the modern era.

it's just that for me, how I see capitalism working personally...I can how it will be used for the worse.

Took me ages to edit the response.

Yours is not especially helpful. A moan about capitalism and the Ford Pinto. Well, at least I looked up the Pinto business. Not quite as simple as you suggested.

If you have any particular political persuasions that might beat capitalism, do let me know.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well, although this was originally a "Stay or leave" topic, what do you suggest as a viable alternative?.

I already said higher up, there is no alternative, I don't have any answers for the problem. I just know that the only way to curtail it is to watch it carefully from close to.

Which is why I want my government as close by as possible.

It's not that I disagree with the EU concept,I actually think it's the greatest idea in the modern era.

it's just that for me, how I see capitalism working personally...I can how it will be used for the worse.

Took me ages to edit the response.

Yours is not especially helpful. A moan about capitalism and the Ford Pinto. Well, at least I looked up the Pinto business. Not quite as simple as you suggested.

If you have any particular political persuasions that might beat capitalism, do let me know. "
.

You've obviously not read what I wrote when I said, I don't have a solution or a better alternative!.

I only know I have to curtail it and that's what I was talking about?... Do you understand the difference

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well, although this was originally a "Stay or leave" topic, what do you suggest as a viable alternative?.

I already said higher up, there is no alternative, I don't have any answers for the problem. I just know that the only way to curtail it is to watch it carefully from close to.

Which is why I want my government as close by as possible.

It's not that I disagree with the EU concept,I actually think it's the greatest idea in the modern era.

it's just that for me, how I see capitalism working personally...I can how it will be used for the worse.

Took me ages to edit the response.

Yours is not especially helpful. A moan about capitalism and the Ford Pinto. Well, at least I looked up the Pinto business. Not quite as simple as you suggested.

If you have any particular political persuasions that might beat capitalism, do let me know. .

You've obviously not read what I wrote when I said, I don't have a solution or a better alternative!.

I only know I have to curtail it and that's what I was talking about?... Do you understand the difference"

Of course I understand the difference. I also fully understand that you do not have an alternative.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't have an alternative to chemotherapy but experts still critique it's failings!.

I think your being a bit

I mean yeah the pinto, not quite as simply as you say... Err yes it is, ford built a car that they knew was defective, and was liable to fire, they cost analysed the money to correct it to the amount there'd have to pay out in burns and deaths, the 11 dollar fix times 7 million cars sold worked out more expensive so they elected to let people burn to death!... Of course I can't say that's the problem with capitalism because I've not flung another "alternative" at you!!.

Do me a favour

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Anybody wanna buy a Pinto?

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By *inaTitzTV/TS over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

"Considering that the OP posted once and hasn't been back, I'm wondering if it is the equivalent of chucking a hand grenade into a room and then closing the door

It's now 24 hours, so I'm sure that this was just the equivalent of a hand grenade

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don't have an alternative to chemotherapy but experts still critique it's failings!.

I think your being a bit

Do me a favour

This is not a Pinto thread but from what I have read from the unreliable web, the car met current standards at the time. The standards were questionable.

Just wondering why you are anti-capitalist ... without an alterntaive.

It is a bit like being a vegertarian who likes bacon.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"ask yourself ???? WHAT HAS THE EU DONE FOR US IN THE LAST 30 YEARS....-uck all but cost us all money .....

That's absolutely not true.

Don't get me wrong, there is much wrong with the EU and I can understand arguments for leaving - there's posters in this thread who provide those, backed up by evidence.

If I lived in the leafy Home Counties, I'd maybe feel a bit differently, but areas hit worst by

Industrial decline have had masses of European money pumped in, especially Objective One areas.

funny enough i made a similar arguement last week when i replaced the word "wales" with north east england....

and the answer i go back was "well if there was more money to go round we would have put that money into the area".....

which would be an interesting arguement if it wasn't left to the EU to direct that money....

wales is a net benefactor...

north east england is a net benefactor...

cornwall is a net benefactor....

northern ireland is a net benefactor....

which does make you wonder why it had to be left to the EU......

the newcastle/gateshead quayside area wouldn't be half what it is now without the EU money....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"ask yourself ???? WHAT HAS THE EU DONE FOR US IN THE LAST 30 YEARS....-uck all but cost us all money .....

That's absolutely not true.

Don't get me wrong, there is much wrong with the EU and I can understand arguments for leaving - there's posters in this thread who provide those, backed up by evidence.

If I lived in the leafy Home Counties, I'd maybe feel a bit differently, but areas hit worst by

Industrial decline have had masses of European money pumped in, especially Objective One areas.

funny enough i made a similar arguement last week when i replaced the word "wales" with north east england....

and the answer i go back was "well if there was more money to go round we would have put that money into the area".....

which would be an interesting arguement if it wasn't left to the EU to direct that money....

wales is a net benefactor...

north east england is a net benefactor...

cornwall is a net benefactor....

northern ireland is a net benefactor....

which does make you wonder why it had to be left to the EU......

the newcastle/gateshead quayside area wouldn't be half what it is now without the EU money...."

Maybe without the EU it wouldn't have needed any 'handouts'. And there's no such thing as EU money anyway

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"ask yourself ???? WHAT HAS THE EU DONE FOR US IN THE LAST 30 YEARS....-uck all but cost us all money .....

That's absolutely not true.

Don't get me wrong, there is much wrong with the EU and I can understand arguments for leaving - there's posters in this thread who provide those, backed up by evidence.

If I lived in the leafy Home Counties, I'd maybe feel a bit differently, but areas hit worst by

Industrial decline have had masses of European money pumped in, especially Objective One areas.

funny enough i made a similar arguement last week when i replaced the word "wales" with north east england....

and the answer i go back was "well if there was more money to go round we would have put that money into the area".....

which would be an interesting arguement if it wasn't left to the EU to direct that money....

wales is a net benefactor...

north east england is a net benefactor...

cornwall is a net benefactor....

northern ireland is a net benefactor....

which does make you wonder why it had to be left to the EU......

the newcastle/gateshead quayside area wouldn't be half what it is now without the EU money...."

And the UK is not a net benefactor.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

the newcastle/gateshead quayside area wouldn't be half what it is now without the EU money....

Maybe without the EU it wouldn't have needed any 'handouts'. And there's no such thing as EU money anyway"

the standard response.... but i didn't see our govt. dipping the money into those regions....

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

And the UK is not a net benefactor."

i said those regions were..... i never said the uk was as a whole! now you are putting words in my mouth....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

the newcastle/gateshead quayside area wouldn't be half what it is now without the EU money....

Maybe without the EU it wouldn't have needed any 'handouts'. And there's no such thing as EU money anyway

the standard response.... but i didn't see our govt. dipping the money into those regions...."

And I did not see the EU dipping money into our steel industry.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

the newcastle/gateshead quayside area wouldn't be half what it is now without the EU money....

Maybe without the EU it wouldn't have needed any 'handouts'. And there's no such thing as EU money anyway

the standard response.... but i didn't see our govt. dipping the money into those regions...."

So is yours. Its just as easy to say they could have been twice what they are without the EU.

So what you are saying is that our government has no say in the EU then and what goes into those areas?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Could it be possible maybe that our government suggested to the EU that those might be good places to return some of our money to?

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

And I did not see the EU dipping money into our steel industry."

you really want to bring the steel industry into this..... really....

okay.....

the EU put a tarriff of 19% on Chinese steel... and 26% on russian steel.....

most european countries want to slap a higher tarriff on the chinese steel products.... one country were the ones fighting to keep it lower, and were to ones to hold up the tariffs going on in the first place......

care to guess which country?

go on.......

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

the newcastle/gateshead quayside area wouldn't be half what it is now without the EU money....

Maybe without the EU it wouldn't have needed any 'handouts'. And there's no such thing as EU money anyway

the standard response.... but i didn't see our govt. dipping the money into those regions....

And I did not see the EU dipping money into our steel industry."

You wouldn't have done; because;

1. The recipient nation has to ask ; ours didn't.

2. There was a proposed EU scheme to "protect" the EU steel industry ( including ours) It was blocked; by the UK

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

2. There was a proposed EU scheme to "protect" the EU steel industry ( including ours) It was blocked; by the UK"

you are spoiling my fun.... i wanted them to guess.......

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By *rightonsteveMan over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

And I did not see the EU dipping money into our steel industry.

you really want to bring the steel industry into this..... really....

okay.....

the EU put a tarriff of 19% on Chinese steel... and 26% on russian steel.....

care to guess which country?

go on.......

Peru?

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

2. There was a proposed EU scheme to "protect" the EU steel industry ( including ours) It was blocked; by the UK

you are spoiling my fun.... i wanted them to guess.......

Sorry! Posted at the same time as you

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By *rightonsteveMan over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

Silly me. Peru isn't in the EU but has EU in it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I just want the vote done. The whole thing is getting on my tits now.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

And I did not see the EU dipping money into our steel industry.

you really want to bring the steel industry into this..... really....

okay.....

the EU put a tarriff of 19% on Chinese steel... and 26% on russian steel.....

care to guess which country?

go on.......

The French were also opposed to putting up steel tariffs on Chinese steel because they like the cheap Chinese steel for the french car industry.

If our government wanted to totally renationalise our steel industry it would be prevented from doing so because of EU rules. We are not in control of our own affairs and we cannot protect ourselves in our own national interest. Someone better tell Jeremy Corbyn his plans to renationalise the railways would be blocked by the EU if he wins the general election.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don't have an alternative to chemotherapy but experts still critique it's failings!.

I think your being a bit

Do me a favour

This is not a Pinto thread but from what I have read from the unreliable web, the car met current standards at the time. The standards were questionable.

Just wondering why you are anti-capitalist ... without an alterntaive.

It is a bit like being a vegertarian who likes bacon."
.

That's my whole point about how insidious it is!.

Who and why were the standards wrote for?.

If im selling my second hand car that I knew was dangerous, I mean lethal, and a guy and his 6 year old daughter turns up to buy it... Am I just thinking... Well as long as he technically doesn't ask me about that lethal fault... Buyer beware!!...

Ford knew that car would set on fire in certain situations, the internal report they did was really pretty accurate, there experts predicted that about 276 cars would explode out the 7 million sold and that about 92 of them would burn to death and they were plus or minus 10% correct.

They also worked out that the payout to 96 people for loss of life was about 30% less than the 11 dollar fix on the 7 million cars.... That's capitalism... You can put a dollar value to life??.

But so is the more insidious things like ford and many other motor companies put pressure on the people who make the standards, and those pressures are never for the benefit of customers there for the benefit of more profit... just like the fossil fuel companies have spent billions convincing idiots in global warming conspiracies.. Because it's good for their profits and tobacco companies spent hundreds of millions hiding evidence of their product killing people... And yet today with ttip... What do you know tobacco companies will be able to sue if you make them use plain packets.... That's how insidious it gets....

It's perfectly possible to be for a "concept" but against its obvious flaws, the EU, the euro, unlimited immigration, no borders, free travel, free trade... There all great and noble "concepts" there just flawed by the system we work under!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'd think it would be a good idea to do research yes?.

Britain didn't take any money from the imf and it was the 5th largest economy in 1976! And London has always been the financial Centre of the world!"
.

I just did some more research according to the world bank...

The UK was the 3rd in 1966

5th in 1976

6th in 1986

6th in 1996

5th in 2006

Had an agreement with the imf but never took a penny

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By *an_WoodMan over a year ago

Stafford

Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector."
.

London has the most lax and corrupt financial laws of anywhere, always has done, that's why it's the global financial hub.

I'll tell you why.

rehypothacation or more to the point unlimited rehypothacation, London is the only place that allows it, it's the mechanism that allows you to sell the same piece of CDO debt over and over and over unlimited amounts.

ALL the US banking debt crises came through London, didn't matter which company, Deutsch bank, citi group, HSBC, Barclays, Goldman Sachs, bere Stearns, Lehmans.

Still not convinced, well the libor and forex and every other scandal also came from and through London!.

If you think it's new York, you really should look deeper

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

"I just want the vote done. The whole thing is getting on my tits now. "

And there's weeks of it on Fab still to go

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector."

While we are members of the EU now, Brussels has been pushing and pushing to put a financial transactions tax on the city of London. Is that what you call protecting London's financial services sector? Or is it just the fat cat eurocrats in Brussels, wanting to bleed us dry more than they already are with the contributions we already pay.

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"ask yourself ???? WHAT HAS THE EU DONE FOR US IN THE LAST 30 YEARS....-uck all but cost us all money .....

If we stay in the EU our financial contribution is set to rise again by 2020.

That's cute given that the nett contribution for 2015/2016 was £10.79 billion due to fall to £9.64 billion in 2019/2020.

Since 9.64 is less than 10.79 the UK contribution is due to fall by 2020.

Don't let arithmetic get in the way of a good lie though.

Figures from the independent full fact website show the following...

In 2015 we paid 18 billion nett into the EU.

We got back a rebate of 5 billion.

18 billion - 5 billion leaves us with a bill of 13 billion.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article- 3154628/Britain-punished-outpacing- Europe-contributions--Brussels-leap-3- 1billion-five-years.html

and also here....

www.thecommentator.com/article/5968/uk _s_success_means_ eu_contributions_rise_by_over_3_billion

The hysterical articles and amounts you quoted are about economic forecasts and Brexiters don't do forecasts, do they? Though perhaps they might, one day, if professor poll tax can get anyone to agree to him publishing his thoughts before the end of June.

The UK has never paid anywhere near £18 bn net just as it has never paid £18 bn gross and just as it's never paid £350 million per week. You can check that on the independent full fact website.

This year the OBR currently predict the net payment to be £10.6 bn falling to $9.7 bn in 2019/20. £9.7 bn is still less than £10.6 bn - at least it is for most people. There's another £1.3 bn for private sector receipts that the EU pays for things like research that reduces both those figures (so it becomes £9.3 bn falling to £8.4 bn). You can check that on the OBR website.

In this case you would be wise to distrust the forecasts: the OBR has published the error in its past estimates for the EU contribution. They were $2.2 bn out in just one year, 2013 and a further £100 million out in 2014 so a rise, fall or move sideways over 5 years is anyone's guess.

With the likelihood of errors of £2.2 bn a year in their estimates, the OBR have as much idea as you about how much it might rise or fall over 5 years - and that's no idea at all. Come to think of it, that applies to me too.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

What are you on about? You hate bankers and would love to see them bled dry. Now the poor ladies down my local Nationwide feel the same about you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

This

I think you're right. We could be held to random or hld in debt to any one or a collection of mega corporations.

The conservatives have been a big part of the driving force of TTIP in Europe, ensuring that it is fully secret from us all.

Due to this secrecy I don't think the UK electorate will ever have much clue about who has been responsible.

I think this is the problem really - many people I have spoken to agree that there is not really a point for using TTIP as a point in this referendum. Which is what I was trying to point out. If we leave then yes, we can hold our MP's to account if they vote for us. But it's a huge risk. Who is to say we will get a Labour government in next? The Tories have already reduced our rights to strike and protest. Out of the EU they will make it as hard as possible for people to hold them responsible - that is many people's fear.

But I see the arguments for not staying on this topic too. The EU may subject it to us, and we may not be able to hold them to account on it.

Ultimately I think TTIP has he British population flanked, and our only hope is that the EU listens to Europe and rejects it until a favourable outcome can be reached - or that we hold out until a anti-TTIP government comes into power in the UK. Really it's a case of how long can we hold out.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"TTIP - biggest single reason to leave - do the research

Huge demonstrations and protests in Germany today against TTIP. Even the Germans don't want it. The EU commission are not accountable to anyone though, they will just railroad it through anyway.

This

I think you're right. We could be held to random or hld in debt to any one or a collection of mega corporations.

The conservatives have been a big part of the driving force of TTIP in Europe, ensuring that it is fully secret from us all.

Due to this secrecy I don't think the UK electorate will ever have much clue about who has been responsible.

But I see the arguments for not staying on this topic too. The EU may subject it to us, and we may not be able to hold them to account on it.

Well, don't worry. Our 'special friend' Obama said any deals with the Uk on its own would take up to ten years anyway

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Well, don't worry. Our 'special friend' Obama said any deals with the Uk on its own would take up to ten years anyway

That's good, in return we will close the door to trident, no longer will they keep their Trident in UK

what goes around comes around

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Well, don't worry. Our 'special friend' Obama said any deals with the Uk on its own would take up to ten years anyway

That's good, in return we will close the door to trident, no longer will they keep their Trident in UK

what goes a

round comes around

sure. Unless he was talking through his arse eh

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

"Well, don't worry. Our 'special friend' Obama said any deals with the Uk on its own would take up to ten years anyway

That's good, in return we will close the door to trident, no longer will they keep their Trident in UK

what goes around comes around

Errr they don't keep their Trident in UK Never have. Never will be. US Tridents are based in The US.

We buy our Tridents from the US; and our Tridents are dependent on US communication and control systems.

And the US couldn't care less if we bought their Tridents, or not, really . They are expensive, but don't make the US much profit, and maintaining the comms infrastructure for us is a PIA for them. In fact, when they upgrade theirs, they will use a modified control system, so won't be happy to maintain the old one to support ours . Unless we also buy the new one.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

Errr they don't keep their Trident in UK Never have. Never will be. US Tridents are based in The US.

We buy our Tridents from the US; and our Tridents are dependent on US communication and control systems.

Will you stop shooting them down with actual facts and common sense...damn!!!

Have to admit it is fun watching people lurch from one topic to another

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Well,

Errr they don't keep their Trident in UK Never have. Never will be. US Tridents are based in The US.

We buy our Tridents from the US; and our Tridents are dependent on US communication and control systems.

Trident is a joint venture between the UK and the US. Trident II D5 missiles are leased from the US in King's Bay, Georgia.

British submarines return to Georgia for their maintenance on a regular basis and the UK contributes £12m a year to the US as part of the running costs of the base. Non-nuclear warhead components are also made in the US.

Past UK prime ministers have always stressed Trident's independence, saying its firing does not require the permission, the satellites or the codes of the US. (do you believe that, have you met a PM that tells the truth)

there has always been a degree of controversy over the "incredibly high level of US support that allows the UK to remain a nuclear weapons base".

The US Polaris and Poseidon nuclear submarine base at Holy Loch may have closed in 1992 but if you take a drive round there, as well as around Sandbank, Faslane & Coulport you will see a lot of U.S. military personnel, why is that??? are they just over on holiday? but they why would they holiday in uniform? perhaps just to pick up the Scottish chicks

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

But how the euro will cope with the uncertainty following a brexit and the possibility of other countries calling for refeerendums is a major uncertainty.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

I can't believe I haven't commented on this thread

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I have a simple test. If one side comes out with a statement about the future, if the other side wins i.e. Stay side says something about what happens if we leave.

Then i listen to the other sides' reply. If, instead of addressing the argument, they use the words "scaremongering, the British public will not be fooled, loss of sovereignty, criticise the cost of providing the information, etc. Or basically do nothing to answer the original point then i assume they have no reply and cannot be trusted to know what to do.

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

But how the euro will cope with the uncertainty following a brexit and the possibility of other countries calling for refeerendums is a major uncertainty."
pound is down against all world at the moment .....since the rest of the world isn't having a brexit vote guess the rest of the world doesn't see a brexit outcome as a positive idea ...so guess its in for a better future ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

But how the euro will cope with the uncertainty following a brexit and the possibility of other countries calling for refeerendums is a major uncertainty.pound is down against all world at the moment .....since the rest of the world isn't having a brexit vote guess the rest of the world doesn't see a brexit outcome as a positive idea ...so guess its in for a better future ..."

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

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By *an_WoodMan over a year ago

Stafford

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

Pound is trending down to the euro since December which means little apart from the fact this exhange rate has become uncoupled from international interest rates. This points to BREXIT vote being considered as a risk factor for the pound.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

So is the euro and its down more than tbe pound

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

No one knows what effect brexit will have on any thing, we only know what effect the EU has on us because we are part of it. What will happen if/when we leave is all guess work but if we want to make our own laws and close our borders we must leave."
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE..... Brexit wont close borders no will it make any difference to laws made its only in the tiny minds of out campaigners who dream that some form of utopia will be created ..it wont ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

xx"

Easy answer is no as I've discovered. The problem been is no one knows, not either side. Sadly it's just going to be a petty shouting match right up to the end. Go with your instinct seems to be the only real factual advice!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

'We know what effect the EU has on us because we are a part of it'

Best post yet as a reason to leave

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

unless we want to say ta ta to trade with the rest of Europe if we vote to leave then no one will be 'closing the borders'..

Pretty sure that Norway and Switzerland had to agree to their borders being 'open' as part of their trade deal with the EU..

once we have said bye oh and by the way can we have a new trade deal but we will also close our borders i think their answer will be 'we'll get back to you'..

or fick auf..

happy to be corrected if i have gotten it wrong..

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

'We know what effect the EU has on us because we are a part of it'

Best post yet as a reason to leave

"
sorry don't see it as a justifiable reason to leave ...... An exit with so many unknowns would be like playing Russian roulette with five chambers loaded ....the odds are well stacked against you

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By *eMontresMan over a year ago

Halesowen

".....

Best post yet as a reason to leave

sorry don't see it as a justifiable reason to leave ...... An exit with so many unknowns would be like playing Russian roulette with five chambers loaded ....the odds are well stacked against you "

But it's not unknown. There was a time when we weren't in the EEC/EU. Guess what, they still bought our stuff and sold us theirs. People went on holidays without visas, people lived and worked in Europe, as well as the rest of the world.

It's staying in that's full of danger. Eventually would have to join the Eruo and the EU is committed to further integration and removal of sovereignty and legislature from member states.

Then there's TTIP - that scares the shit out of me.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

unless we want to say ta ta to trade with the rest of Europe if we vote to leave then no one will be 'closing the borders'..

Pretty sure that Norway and Switzerland had to agree to their borders being 'open' as part of their trade deal with the EU..

once we have said bye oh and by the way can we have a new trade deal but we will also close our borders i think their answer will be 'we'll get back to you'..

or fick auf..

happy to be corrected if i have gotten it wrong.. "

Canada just did a trade deal with the EU, it has not accepted free movement of people from the EU as part of that deal. To suggest we must accept free movement of people is nonsense. Trade deals are a 2 way street, if the EU want access to our market then it is in their interest to do a good deal with us. Millions of jobs in the eurozone depend on trade with Britain.

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

".....

Best post yet as a reason to leave

sorry don't see it as a justifiable reason to leave ...... An exit with so many unknowns would be like playing Russian roulette with five chambers loaded ....the odds are well stacked against you

It's staying in that's full of danger. Eventually would have to join the Eruo and the EU is committed to further integration and removal of sovereignty and legislature from member states.

Then there's TTIP - that scares the shit out of me."
guess what time has moved on since we joined the eec/eu its not the world that it was we clearly didn't trade well with the rest of the world that's one of the reasons we joined ..out of the EU is all unknown..the out supporters guess we will trade well ..guess immigration / emigration will reduce ..guess that any new partners will not dictate to us but since most trading partners dictate to each other guess not ...all guess work for brexit just like Russian roulette

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

No one knows what effect brexit will have on any thing, we only know what effect the EU has on us because we are part of it. What will happen if/when we leave is all guess work but if we want to make our own laws and close our borders we must leave.WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE..... Brexit wont close borders no will it make any difference to laws made its only in the tiny minds of out campaigners who dream that some form of utopia will be created ..it wont ..."

How can you know until it happens? simple answer is you cant know.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

unless we want to say ta ta to trade with the rest of Europe if we vote to leave then no one will be 'closing the borders'..

Pretty sure that Norway and Switzerland had to agree to their borders being 'open' as part of their trade deal with the EU..

once we have said bye oh and by the way can we have a new trade deal but we will also close our borders i think their answer will be 'we'll get back to you'..

or fick auf..

happy to be corrected if i have gotten it wrong..

Canada isn't in the same continent so i would think that may have had something to do with that..

yes agree trade deals are a two way street etc but we will be 'out of their club' and asking to have access to what we want, can't see why the will not want at least what they have already got from other countries within Europe who were in the same position that we may be..

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By *eMontresMan over a year ago

Halesowen

".....

Best post yet as a reason to leave

sorry don't see it as a justifiable reason to leave ...... An exit with so many unknowns would be like playing Russian roulette with five chambers loaded ....the odds are well stacked against you

It's staying in that's full of danger. Eventually would have to join the Eruo and the EU is committed to further integration and removal of sovereignty and legislature from member states.

Then there's TTIP - that scares the shit out of me.guess what time has moved on since we joined the eec/eu its not the world that it was we clearly didn't trade well with the rest of the world that's one of the reasons we joined ..out of the EU is all unknown..the out supporters guess we will trade well ..guess immigration / emigration will reduce ..guess that any new partners will not dictate to us but since most trading partners dictate to each other guess not ...all guess work for brexit just like Russian roulette "

Have to totally disagree. Yes the world has changed. we now have the internet. I can get stuff UPS from the states in a couple of days at half the price, and get stuff that you can't even order in Europe.

Buying and selling have not changed, but the tools have got better.

We traded just fine with the commonwealth and the rest of the world, and had to leave those special trade arrangements behind when we joined the EU.

As I said, people from all over the world, not just the EU, will still want to buy our stuff, and sell us theirs.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Then there's TTIP!

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

unless we want to say ta ta to trade with the rest of Europe if we vote to leave then no one will be 'closing the borders'..

Pretty sure that Norway and Switzerland had to agree to their borders being 'open' as part of their trade deal with the EU..

once we have said bye oh and by the way can we have a new trade deal but we will also close our borders i think their answer will be 'we'll get back to you'..

or fick auf..

happy to be corrected if i have gotten it wrong..

interesting that you now point at the canada deal.... remember this is the deal that took 8 years to come to this agreement....

so again.... lets ask the question.... why do the people who want to leave think that the trade deals can be down within 2?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

No one knows what effect brexit will have on any thing, we only know what effect the EU has on us because we are part of it. What will happen if/when we leave is all guess work but if we want to make our own laws and close our borders we must leave.WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE..... Brexit wont close borders no will it make any difference to laws made its only in the tiny minds of out campaigners who dream that some form of utopia will be created ..it wont ...

How can you know until it happens? simple answer is you cant know. "

just like George Osborne and the treasury can't know what the world will look like in 2030.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

unless we want to say ta ta to trade with the rest of Europe if we vote to leave then no one will be 'closing the borders'..

Pretty sure that Norway and Switzerland had to agree to their borders being 'open' as part of their trade deal with the EU..

once we have said bye oh and by the way can we have a new trade deal but we will also close our borders i think their answer will be 'we'll get back to you'..

or fick auf..

happy to be corrected if i have gotten it wrong..

interesting that you now point at the canada deal.... remember this is the deal that took 8 years to come to this agreement....

so again.... lets ask the question.... why do the people who want to leave think that the trade deals can be down within 2?"

I didn't say it would be exactly the same as the Canada deal. It won't be exactly like the Norway deal or the Swiss deal either before you try to put words in my mouth. It will be a unique British/EU trade deal. We can negotiate a deal according to our own needs and interests which will be different to other countries.

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By *horehouseCouple over a year ago

dissatisfied

"Get with the program New York is the #1 financial centre of the world. I'm guessing in the event of BREXIT the EU will be happy to protect London's financial services sector.

How's the pound doing?

Fairly well given the current uncertainty.

Better than the euro over the last few years thats for sure.

Pounds up. Not sure where you look

No one knows what effect brexit will have on any thing, we only know what effect the EU has on us because we are part of it. What will happen if/when we leave is all guess work but if we want to make our own laws and close our borders we must leave.WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE..... Brexit wont close borders no will it make any difference to laws made its only in the tiny minds of out campaigners who dream that some form of utopia will be created ..it wont ...

How can you know until it happens? simple answer is you cant know. "
are you really that naive to believe the rhetoric from the brexit campaigners..its not only being in the EU that keeps borders open ..in fact more immigrants come to the UK from outside Europe ..most of whom the UK government could stop if the whished to they don't now nor are they claiming they will in the future ..its not the out campaigners who will decide the future after brexit it is the tory government.......

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

We will be the only country to have left the club, we will to some be as popular as a fart in a lift..

and yes commerce etc dictates that deals will need to be done but those that are doing the deals can take their time about it..

also with some of the rhetoric from some of the leading Brexiters just whom will be doing these deals on 'our behalf', Farrage..? Boris..? Redwood..?

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By *eMontresMan over a year ago

Halesowen

"We will be the only country to have left the club, we will to some be as popular as a fart in a lift..

and yes commerce etc dictates that deals will need to be done but those that are doing the deals can take their time about it..

also with some of the rhetoric from some of the leading Brexiters just whom will be doing these deals on 'our behalf', Farrage..? Boris..? Redwood..?

When people start threatening us about what they'll do to fuck us over if we leave, then it just makes me want to leave even more. Like an abusive marriage with a controlling partner.

We buy more from the EU than they buy from us - so what they going to do? Refuse to sell us their cheese, wine, cars etc. Refuse to take our tourist Euros?

Yes the French will be arsey for a while, they behave like petulant schoolkids, so what? Who cares, there are lovely cheeses and wines from several other countries in the world which are the equal of anything that France produces.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"We will be the only country to have left the club, we will to some be as popular as a fart in a lift..

and yes commerce etc dictates that deals will need to be done but those that are doing the deals can take their time about it..

also with some of the rhetoric from some of the leading Brexiters just whom will be doing these deals on 'our behalf', Farrage..? Boris..? Redwood..?

When people start threatening us about what they'll do to fuck us over if we leave, then it just makes me want to leave even more. Like an abusive marriage with a controlling partner.

We buy more from the EU than they buy from us - so what they going to do? Refuse to sell us their cheese, wine, cars etc. Refuse to take our tourist Euros?

tbh i was not aware that we had been threatened?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We will be the only country to have left the club, we will to some be as popular as a fart in a lift..

and yes commerce etc dictates that deals will need to be done but those that are doing the deals can take their time about it..

also with some of the rhetoric from some of the leading Brexiters just whom will be doing these deals on 'our behalf', Farrage..? Boris..? Redwood..?

When people start threatening us about what they'll do to fuck us over if we leave, then it just makes me want to leave even more. Like an abusive marriage with a controlling partner.

We buy more from the EU than they buy from us - so what they going to do? Refuse to sell us their cheese, wine, cars etc. Refuse to take our tourist Euros?

Insults and threats seem to be the Remainiacs only available weapons. As someone once said "violence starts when intelligence stops".

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"We will be the only country to have left the club, we will to some be as popular as a fart in a lift..

and yes commerce etc dictates that deals will need to be done but those that are doing the deals can take their time about it..

also with some of the rhetoric from some of the leading Brexiters just whom will be doing these deals on 'our behalf', Farrage..? Boris..? Redwood..?

When people start threatening us about what they'll do to fuck us over if we leave, then it just makes me want to leave even more. Like an abusive marriage with a controlling partner.

We buy more from the EU than they buy from us - so what they going to do? Refuse to sell us their cheese, wine, cars etc. Refuse to take our tourist Euros?

We all know how petulant french farmers can be. If the french government closes off one of their biggest markets (the british market) the french farmers will give them hell, blocking roads with their tractors, etc. The French government won't be able to take the pressure from the farmers, politicians need to be elected, to be practical about it the politicians will have to listen to the farmers or face protests from the farmers. If they don't listen it will be bad for their election prospects at the next domestic french election.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"We will be the only country to have left the club, we will to some be as popular as a fart in a lift..

and yes commerce etc dictates that deals will need to be done but those that are doing the deals can take their time about it..

also with some of the rhetoric from some of the leading Brexiters just whom will be doing these deals on 'our behalf', Farrage..? Boris..? Redwood..?

When people start threatening us about what they'll do to fuck us over if we leave, then it just makes me want to leave even more. Like an abusive marriage with a controlling partner.

We buy more from the EU than they buy from us - so what they going to do? Refuse to sell us their cheese, wine, cars etc. Refuse to take our tourist Euros?

Insults and threats seem to be the Remainiacs only available weapons. As someone once said "violence starts when intelligence stops"."

i think looking at any of the EU threads objectively that there have been insults slung by some on both sides of the debate..

not heard of anyone threatening violence myself..

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By *eMontresMan over a year ago

Halesowen

tbh i was not aware that we had been threatened?

French politicians have made several threats, moving the border from Calais to Dover, financial penalities, even their PM has been making statements that there will be economic, trade, developmental, co-operative "consequences" if we leave.

Try reading the FT, though much of it has also been reported by mainstream media.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

tbh i was not aware that we had been threatened?

Try reading the FT, though much of it has also been reported by mainstream media."

was aware of some of those but in any referendum such as this the hyperbole is not only restricted to those in power or positions of authority..

how much of it holds any water of course no one knows..

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

tbh i was not aware that we had been threatened?

Try reading the FT, though much of it has also been reported by mainstream media."

Those are not threats; they are simply statements about possible consequences.

Stating a potential consequence is not a threat.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

The French black balled Britain when we first applied to join what is now the EU. Seems they didn't want us in the EU in the first place but now desperate to keep us in so they can keep us paying extortionate EU membership fees and using our money to bail out the failing euro zone.

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By *buse my girlfriend OP Couple over a year ago

Derby

"oooooOOOoooo someone doesn't know how to use google"

oooooOOOoooo someone holds a grudge.

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By *eMontresMan over a year ago

Halesowen

....

Try reading the FT, though much of it has also been reported by mainstream media.

Those are not threats; they are simply statements about possible consequences.

Stating a potential consequence is not a threat."

Disgree, they are saying if we leave, then they'll move the border to Dover - they don't have to, that's a threat.

If we leave, they'll withdraw financial co-operation - they don't have to, that's a thread.

If we leave, they'll stop co-operating on joint economic developments - they don't have to - that's a threat.

Totally different from inevitable consequences, these are threats about how they'll fuck us over if we leave.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

....

Try reading the FT, though much of it has also been reported by mainstream media.

Those are not threats; they are simply statements about possible consequences.

Stating a potential consequence is not a threat.

Disgree, they are saying if we leave, then they'll move the border to Dover - they don't have to, that's a threat.

If we leave, they'll withdraw financial co-operation - they don't have to, that's a thread.

If we leave, they'll stop co-operating on joint economic developments - they don't have to - that's a threat.

Totally different from inevitable consequences, these are threats about how they'll fuck us over if we leave."

so let me get this right, if we leave we expect the French to maintain (with us) our border in their country..?

surely anyone voting to leave would want 'our border' back where it should be/ historically was..?

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

The EU debate is full of non-facts and scaremongering.

To make up one's mind impartially have a look at the EU as an organisation and then decide whether we want our national sovereignty back or wish to keep letting the Germans et al dictate how we run our country

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

If you do your research fully you will find that the EU needs us and we don't need them

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By *ittie4UCouple over a year ago

Watford

"We buy more from the EU than they buy from us - so what they going to do? Refuse to sell us their cheese, wine, cars etc. Refuse to take our tourist Euros?

Well, it was clear you were spouting bollocks from the start. But I was going to let it pass...you have to pick your battles, don't you.

But then you went over the top. Into an outrageous, stratospheric lie.

What kind of a person are you?

One who doesn't know cheese, that's for sure.

Nothing, but nothing, compares to a Morbier, that subtle blend of morning milk cheese and afternoon milk cheese:

A Vacherine Mont d'Or, the queen of cheese, worth waiting eight months of the year for:

Roblochon, pungent and the pre-requisit of a wonderful tartiflette:

Raclette, the crowning glory to one of my most guilty pleasures.

Beaufort, for me, by a distance, the greatest cheese in the world, followed closely by Comte:

Crottin De Chavignol, nutty, beautifully textures goat's cheese:

Does life have meaning without Roquefort?

And in my book at least, if you don't know your European cheeses, then you views on Brexit can't be worth much!

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By *ittie4UCouple over a year ago

Watford

"If you do your research fully you will find that the EU needs us and we don't need them

That's because just under 50% of our exports (in goods mind, that's not including services that are a very big component of the U.K. Economy) goes to the EU and about 10% of their exports comes to us?

That's becuase their economy is five times the size of ours and so can manage an economic shock better than ours?

You can hold deluded views if you want, but don't try to suggest that they are justifiable by research of the facts.

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By *eMontresMan over a year ago

Halesowen

...

so let me get this right, if we leave we expect the French to maintain (with us) our border in their country..?

surely anyone voting to leave would want 'our border' back where it should be/ historically was..?"

This arrangement is entirely normal. If for example you move between the US and Canada, the US has it's border on the Canadian side and vice versa. I think you'll find it's a pretty common arrangement other than for countries in Schengen.

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

....

Try reading the FT, though much of it has also been reported by mainstream media.

Those are not threats; they are simply statements about possible consequences.

Stating a potential consequence is not a threat.

Disgree, they are saying if we leave, then they'll move the border to Dover - they don't have to, that's a threat.

If we leave, they'll withdraw financial co-operation - they don't have to, that's a thread.

If we leave, they'll stop co-operating on joint economic developments - they don't have to - that's a threat.

Totally different from inevitable consequences, these are threats about how they'll fuck us over if we leave."

You can disagree as much as you like; but they didn't threaten; they stated possible consequences;

Of course those statements were made in French;

It is very convenient to translate them however you wish to;

But:

1.the " moving the border" comment was heavily ( deliberately?) misquoted. The French have no issue with the current border arrangement ( which is exclusive UK and France.) However it nevertheless relies in its current form on the EU; what the French foreign ministry actually said was that if UK left the EU then the legal wording would have to be changed to let it continue.

2.They never said that financial co-operation would be withdrawn; again they actually stated that as UK would no longer be in the EU, then the current arrangements would become technically invalid, and it would be necessary to change arrangements.

3. The same applied to other joint developments; those arranged under the umbrella of the EU could be deemed automatically invalid, and would, of legal necessity, have to be re-validated in order to continue.

It is quite clear what was actually said, in the original language, if you read it in the Official Journal (in effect the French equivalent of Hansard)

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By *ittie4UCouple over a year ago

Watford

"The French black balled Britain when we first applied to join what is now the EU. Seems they didn't want us in the EU in the first place but now desperate to keep us in so they can keep us paying extortionate EU membership fees and using our money to bail out the failing euro zone. "

No. They know we'll have to pay most of the fees anyway if we leave and want to keep access to the biggest single market in the world.

You have a point though. If Britain had so little influence in Europe as Brexit keep trying to suggest, you have thought they wouldn't have cared either way.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

All this talk of trade deals is nonsense anyway. Does anyone in their right mind think on the day we leave all trade will suddenly stop with the EU? It will carry on just as it is, business to business. There will be talks about this and that and certain rules and regulations put in place but at the end of the day it is business that will dictate the way things go not quangos or governments

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

...

so let me get this right, if we leave we expect the French to maintain (with us) our border in their country..?

surely anyone voting to leave would want 'our border' back where it should be/ historically was..?

Terrorists love the border free schengen zone. As we saw with the Paris attacks when they travelled from Syria into Europe and went right through Europe border free to Paris with no checks. May as well put a sign up saying "Terrorists welcome to move around freely in the Schengen!"

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

...

so let me get this right, if we leave we expect the French to maintain (with us) our border in their country..?

surely anyone voting to leave would want 'our border' back where it should be/ historically was..?

they are landlocked, not sure where another Island nation has a similar arrangement as we have at present with France..

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By *ittie4UCouple over a year ago

Watford

....

Try reading the FT, though much of it has also been reported by mainstream media.

Those are not threats; they are simply statements about possible consequences.

Stating a potential consequence is not a threat.

Disgree, they are saying if we leave, then they'll move the border to Dover - they don't have to, that's a threat.

If we leave, they'll withdraw financial co-operation - they don't have to, that's a thread.

If we leave, they'll stop co-operating on joint economic developments - they don't have to - that's a threat.

Totally different from inevitable consequences, these are threats about how they'll fuck us over if we leave."

A bizarre view of the world. Anything that isn't an inevitable consequence is a threat. I hope you aren't a barrister -you'd be a terrible.

Let's face the facts though. Nothing the French can do will fuck us over anywhere near as much as we will have fucked ourselves over by voting to leave.

In the scheme of things any French action would be a rounding error.

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By *eMontresMan over a year ago

Halesowen

...

they are landlocked, not sure where another Island nation has a similar arrangement as we have at present with France..

Neither of them is landlocked, they both have coastline. Though yes, they share a land border.

I don't know the specific details of all countries' complementary border arrangements, but my experience indicates that arrangements such as these are entirely normal.

As someone stated, our arrangement with France has nothing to do with the EU anyway, so why are they using it as a threat?

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By *ittie4UCouple over a year ago

Watford

Another irrelevant point. The U.K. Isn't in the Schengen zone. You can go look it up if you want.

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By *eMontresMan over a year ago

Halesowen

...

A bizarre view of the world. Anything that isn't an inevitable consequence is a threat. I hope you aren't a barrister -you'd be a terrible.

...

That's not what I said at all, you'd make a good reporter for the Sun or Daily Mail though.

I have no desire to be a barrister, so I'll take your feeble attempt at an insult, as a compliment.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

...

so let me get this right, if we leave we expect the French to maintain (with us) our border in their country..?

surely anyone voting to leave would want 'our border' back where it should be/ historically was..?

Indeed, that's why there are terror attacks in Europe every single day, isn't it?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

...

they are landlocked, not sure where another Island nation has a similar arrangement as we have at present with France..

Neither of them is landlocked, they both have coastline. Though yes, they share a land border.

I don't know the specific details of all countries' complementary border arrangements, but my experience indicates that arrangements such as these are entirely normal.

As someone stated, our arrangement with France has nothing to do with the EU anyway, so why are they using it as a threat?

ah yes clearly they do have coastline however you knew i was referring to the border you mentioned..

i dont see it as a threat personally, thing is is it not the right of countries to decide arrangements/practises etc within their own remit?

seems a bit ironic that those who want us to leave and regain our sovereignty yet when another country in this case the French indicate they may well do the same its a threat and not 'freedom/ self governance'..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

...

they are landlocked, not sure where another Island nation has a similar arrangement as we have at present with France..

Neither of them is landlocked, they both have coastline. Though yes, they share a land border.

I don't know the specific details of all countries' complementary border arrangements, but my experience indicates that arrangements such as these are entirely normal.

As someone stated, our arrangement with France has nothing to do with the EU anyway, so why are they using it as a threat?

So would you say it's alright for us to walk away from a treaty, but other sovereign powers aren't allowed to do the same? It doesn't really matter if it's related to the EU or not, if they decide they don't want our border in France then that's their right, isn't it?

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By *ittie4UCouple over a year ago

Watford

"All this talk of trade deals is nonsense anyway. Does anyone in their right mind think on the day we leave all trade will suddenly stop with the EU? It will carry on just as it is, business to business. There will be talks about this and that and certain rules and regulations put in place but at the end of the day it is business that will dictate the way things go not quangos or governments"

You really don't understand trade do you. As you posts continually show.

But, no. Nothing will change on the day after. We have two years running under current arrangements as you well know as it's been discussed at length. After that, well who knows.

We can pay to keep access to the single market and be required to keep free movement like Norway or Switzerland. Or we can negotiate a new deal.

But as someone said, it's 'economically illiterate' to believe that we can come out of the EU, stop all payments to the EU, stop migration from the EU and yet maintain all the economic benefits of EU membership ie we have all the benefits, none of the costs and are allowed to have a better deal than either France or Germany.

Actually, I think economically illiterate is a bit polite.

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"The EU debate is full of non-facts and scaremongering.

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By *tillup4funMan over a year ago

Wakefield

"If you do your research fully you will find that the EU needs us and we don't need them

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By *ittie4UCouple over a year ago

Watford

...

A bizarre view of the world. Anything that isn't an inevitable consequence is a threat. I hope you aren't a barrister -you'd be a terrible.

...

That's not what I said at all, you'd make a good reporter for the Sun or Daily Mail though.

I have no desire to be a barrister, so I'll take your feeble attempt at an insult, as a compliment."

Sun; Daily Mail? Please. My comment was true. Go back and read your OP. It is exactly what you said. It's there in black and white.

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By *ittie4UCouple over a year ago

Watford

"If you do your research fully you will find that the EU needs us and we don't need them

A green face and three thumbs doesn't make it any less rubbish you know.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Another irrelevant point. The U.K. Isn't in the Schengen zone. You can go look it up if you want."

It is relevant because the Schengen is an EU idea. The EU is full to bursting with bad ideas which they are now paying for with the migrant crisis and the ongoing eurozone crisis.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

interesting that you now point at the canada deal.... remember this is the deal that took 8 years to come to this agreement....

so again.... lets ask the question.... why do the people who want to leave think that the trade deals can be down within 2?

so let me get this right.....

this will be nothing like the canada deal, but yet you want to mention the canada deal....

and others on the leave side have mentions the norway deal.... but it will be nothing like the norway deal....

and others on the leave side have mentioned the switzerland deal.... but it will be nothing like the switzerland deal.....

and yet with all of those different templates, of which you disavoy all them, you still expect to be able make this magical trade deals and get everything you want, and give up nothing, and do all this within 2 years......

seriously..... if i was being flippant, i would say to people suggesting that they need to stop sniffing glue!!!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

France was an excellent choice of countries for you to pick on. Their net contribution to the EU was about 6 bn euros in 2014, about 50% more than the UK's net contribution and 1.59 bn euros of that was a contribution to the UK rebate. Johny Foreigner in France is obviously so desperate for us to pay their bills that they pay a big part of ours.

Next you should try accusing Germany, Italy, The Netherlands and Sweden of propping up their experiment with our hard earned cash. They all pay net amounts into the EU budget that include contributions to the UK rebate.

Bloody foreigners, how dare they pay their own way and ours too.

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