FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > freedom of speech
freedom of speech
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Once again, as often happens on public forums there is a difference of opinion centred around a sensitive issue.
I find it interesting how at some point someone always states that they're "simply stating their opinion". At what point though does that opinion cross the line? Where does freedom of speech sit next to freedom of expression and a persons human rights regarding abuse?
A bit of a deep one for hump day folks |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Well, for starters, there is no legislation of Freedom of Speech in this country 
And people often think that they are free to express their opinion in whatever way they want.
What the onus is, is that you are free to have your own opinions and expressions of thought, but you do not have the freedom to allow those expressions to abuse others for their own beliefs.
We are actually quite a libertarian society, but with that also comes a social responsibly |
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"With freedom of speech comes responsibility and to abide by the forum rules. "
I think it's dangerous to prevent people from expressing their views no matter how much one might disagree but it's how, where and the manner of expression. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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All opinions are subject to critical examination. You are free to state whatever you want, but it is soon apparent by examination whether that opinion is valid or not. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I personally think you should be able to air your own personal views beliefs and opinions whether your personal opinions are seen as acceptable to others is another matter.
But end of the day they are your personal opinions and everyone has a right to have their own personal views beliefs and opinions regardless if others agree to your opinions beliefs or views or not.
Only my opinion of course  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I have to admit, it really annoys me when someone launches a tirade of abuse into another poster and when they genuinely act upset they are told "I'm allowed to have an opinion".
Surely the person upset is allowed to have feelings?
Oh, and the other good one "If you don't like it, why did you read the post?"
Umm.. it takes a very special set of skills to find out if you like a post or not without reading it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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You're entitled to your opinion of course. But I'm equally entitled to call you out as a bigoted dinosaur for holding that opinion.
If you hold old fashioned conservative views on sexualities and choice, it's best to remember the adage -
'Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it to everybody' |
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I think everyone should be allowed to say whatever they want without censorship or systematic gagging.
However, that does not imply "with impunity".
You can say whatever you want, and I will fight for your right to do so. But if you're going to say things which are harmful, bigoted, or oppressive, then you must be prepared to deal with the consequences of what you say.
Just because you can say it doesn't mean other people can't respond.
That's what gets my goat so often. When people say really shit things and are called out on it, and then they're like "Woah, it's just my opinion! I'm allowed to have an opinion!" Yes. You are. And? Lol. In exactly the same way, I'm "allowed" my opinion that your opinions are shit.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There is no such thing as freedom of speech. In that, you are not free to say whatever you feel without some form of judgement.
True freedom of speech cannot exist. It is an anathema; a utopian concept, like true communism or my 20 woman gang bang (there are still places ladies; remember free cake).
People speak their mind, their opinions and their thoughts and a section of society, any society will.take offense.
George Orwell said that there is no happiness without acceptance.... I think that's probably the smartest thing that anyone has ever said. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I have seen out right bullying on here quite a few times. One example being single guy posts asking for profile advice and others just pounce on them.. I just think they enjoy abusing others. it has happened to me but i recognise their faults and take no notice whatsoever  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"With freedom of speech comes the responsibility to use it wisely.
There is a difference between stating an opinion and abusing someone for holding a different view"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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To start with, at least in the US, freedom of speech applies to public functions, not private ones. So, on a site like fab you don't have "freedom of speech" in the way you traditionally think of it. I refer to the US, not the UK, because the US has some of the most permissive speech laws in the world, so what is restricted there is likely restricted in the UK as well, and usually more so.
Regarding discriminatory speech (otherwise known as "hate speech")
I personally lean towards a very permissive allowance. I don't like hate speech laws. I think that people should be allowed to say what they think. In fact, in democracies I think it is imperative that we should all have an exercise this right.
Many hate speech opponents argue that speech which has no intrinsic or redeeming value should not be allowed. That is an interesting point because I always wonder who is determining value in these cases. But more to the point, I read a very good scholarly article once about how allowing hate speech has value in so far as it allows others in a democracy to know where someone stands on an issue - it goes hand in hand with the idea that certain threads shouldn't be removed because we would all like to see the "true colors" of some posters.
Anyway, all that goes to say that I think speech should always err on the more permissive side. |
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"With freedom of speech comes the responsibility to use it wisely.
There is a difference between stating an opinion and abusing someone for holding a different view"
Exactly. And there is a difference between debating an opinion and attacking a person for holding it too!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's what gets my goat so often. When people say really shit things and are called out on it, and then they're like "Woah, it's just my opinion! I'm allowed to have an opinion!" Yes. You are. And? Lol. In exactly the same way, I'm "allowed" my opinion that your opinions are shit. "
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"There is no such thing as freedom of speech. In that, you are not free to say whatever you feel without some form of judgement."
That's not what the generally accepted freedom of speech means...
It means the freedom to say what you want without prosecution by the government.
Which we do have. (Compare to states like China and North Korea. In China, if you say something bad about the state and it's spread by more than 50 people, you can get arrested. ) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There is no such thing as freedom of speech. In that, you are not free to say whatever you feel without some form of judgement.
That's not what the generally accepted freedom of speech means...
It means the freedom to say what you want without prosecution by the government.
Which we do have. (Compare to states like China and North Korea. In China, if you say something bad about the state and it's spread by more than 50 people, you can get arrested. )"
Not that I am condoning it. But hate speech (inciting racial/religious/gender hatred) is outlawed and proescutable.
Whether we LIKE hate speech is inconsequential, we do not have true freedom of speech. My point stands |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There's an awful lot of hypocrisy on here!.
.
.
I can't count how many times somebody's wrote something suspect and... Without reproach the same people that go on and on about watching what you say then bully that person with personal insults, only today somebody wrote something very questionable on a thread and two or three people then made remarks about his spelling and grammar.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"To start with, at least in the US, freedom of speech applies to public functions, not private ones. So, on a site like fab you don't have "freedom of speech" in the way you traditionally think of it. I refer to the US, not the UK, because the US has some of the most permissive speech laws in the world, so what is restricted there is likely restricted in the UK as well, and usually more so.
Regarding discriminatory speech (otherwise known as "hate speech")
I personally lean towards a very permissive allowance. I don't like hate speech laws. I think that people should be allowed to say what they think. In fact, in democracies I think it is imperative that we should all have an exercise this right.
Many hate speech opponents argue that speech which has no intrinsic or redeeming value should not be allowed. That is an interesting point because I always wonder who is determining value in these cases. But more to the point, I read a very good scholarly article once about how allowing hate speech has value in so far as it allows others in a democracy to know where someone stands on an issue - it goes hand in hand with the idea that certain threads shouldn't be removed because we would all like to see the "true colors" of some posters.
Anyway, all that goes to say that I think speech should always err on the more permissive side. "
.
Very well wrote and I couldn't agree more.
You don't solve societal problems by banning words |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The reality is that freedom to speak is moderated (much like this forum) by what is socially acceptable at any given time (think of the past and what was acceptable in the 70s for example)
We in the west espouse a moderated version of freedom of speech, but this freedom is limited by legislation and social norms. It is an illusion but a progressive illusion because on the flip side of freedom of speech we have the freedom from persecution... the two coexist and yet in essence are a paradox. We create a middle ground and ask society to respect both without extremes.
There will always be those that are extreme and there will be those that are persucuted? It isn't right but it's the world we live in; not a utopia but a world with 7 billion people each with their own opinion. Society may not agree with all, hence law. Legislation may contradict, hence law. Yet to progress we must accept and either educate or turn aside from those views outside general society.
As Orwell said. There is no happiness (utopia) without acceptance.... you don't have to like what you accept. But if you cannot accept, you may grow unhappy....
Yes you |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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To put it in layman's terms I think it boils down to; you're free to say what you like, you're not free to be a dick.
I personally find it interesting how people take offence at their opinions being challenged or questioned and hide behind their freedom to say what they like without appreciating that discourse is a two way street |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You're entitled to your opinion of course. But I'm equally entitled to call you out as a bigoted dinosaur for holding that opinion.
If you hold old fashioned conservative views on sexualities and choice, it's best to remember the adage -
'Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it to everybody'"
I think you miss the free speech point, how many bigoted dinosaurs have changed their minds after a rant from you ? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"You're entitled to your opinion of course. But I'm equally entitled to call you out as a bigoted dinosaur for holding that opinion.
If you hold old fashioned conservative views on sexualities and choice, it's best to remember the adage -
'Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it to everybody'
I think you miss the free speech point, how many bigoted dinosaurs have changed their minds after a rant from you ?"
I think the point is that if they state their views then those views can be challenged. Its not so much about changing minds
I think this leads to the greater point that I was getting to, freedom of speech to many doesn't include a conversation, many want to just 'drop the mic' and run |
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"You're entitled to your opinion of course. But I'm equally entitled to call you out as a bigoted dinosaur for holding that opinion.
If you hold old fashioned conservative views on sexualities and choice, it's best to remember the adage -
'Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it to everybody'
I think you miss the free speech point, how many bigoted dinosaurs have changed their minds after a rant from you ?
I think the point is that if they state their views then those views can be challenged. Its not so much about changing minds
I think this leads to the greater point that I was getting to, freedom of speech to many doesn't include a conversation, many want to just 'drop the mic' and run"
There is a view that is becoming widespread in the US, on the net anwyay, that one's opinion is sacred, ie freedom of speech is being able to state it and NOT be challenged.
A lot of people never learn to debate something logically and dispassionately, for them it is always personal. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"You're entitled to your opinion of course. But I'm equally entitled to call you out as a bigoted dinosaur for holding that opinion.
If you hold old fashioned conservative views on sexualities and choice, it's best to remember the adage -
'Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it to everybody'
I think you miss the free speech point, how many bigoted dinosaurs have changed their minds after a rant from you ?
I think the point is that if they state their views then those views can be challenged. Its not so much about changing minds
I think this leads to the greater point that I was getting to, freedom of speech to many doesn't include a conversation, many want to just 'drop the mic' and run
There is a view that is becoming widespread in the US, on the net anwyay, that one's opinion is sacred, ie freedom of speech is being able to state it and NOT be challenged.
A lot of people never learn to debate something logically and dispassionately, for them it is always personal."
Not just in the US, I see that on here everyday |
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By *olgateMan
over a year ago
on the road to nowhere in particular |
"You're entitled to your opinion of course. But I'm equally entitled to call you out as a bigoted dinosaur for holding that opinion.
If you hold old fashioned conservative views on sexualities and choice, it's best to remember the adage -
'Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it to everybody'"
what makes your opinion more valid than theirs? |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
"You're entitled to your opinion of course. But I'm equally entitled to call you out as a bigoted dinosaur for holding that opinion.
If you hold old fashioned conservative views on sexualities and choice, it's best to remember the adage -
'Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it to everybody'"
That can apply the other way round. Someone may think the same about you.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Taking the piss out of someone and patronising isn't giving an opinion. It's being a piss-taking patronising cunt.
Only on here do I use that word so freely and frequently. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Some opinions state fact though ( ie the subject matter yest) it's just some people have a blurred view on such issues and attack those who state said facts , male and female , physically, atomically and naturally separate forms of humans |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
"Give me a clue at what thread made you make this thread and I can answer
It vanished ruggers
You know anything about that?  "
Ah couldn't have been me then or I might have known what the OP was talking about |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Give me a clue at what thread made you make this thread and I can answer
It vanished ruggers
You know anything about that?
Ah couldn't have been me then or I might have known what the OP was talking about"
It was probably overly critical of the site design to be fair. Rather than the subject. Wasn't too abusive (no more than usual), in fact many good balanced opinions and a few cosmic entities. I think it was more site set-up choices. I think we all feel that the site could do with a few modernisation tweets (please talk to somebody about the mail box system it's been crap for 6 years) |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
OK my view
I think everyone should be able to have a view without being abused for it or told they are wrong, after all, it is their view. I have had my mind changed a few times on here with things that where set in my mind but a polite debater made me think of it a different way.
I think once you start abusing someone , be that in real life or on a website you lose all credibility or argument. |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
"Give me a clue at what thread made you make this thread and I can answer
It vanished ruggers
You know anything about that?
Ah couldn't have been me then or I might have known what the OP was talking about
It was probably overly critical of the site design to be fair. Rather than the subject. Wasn't too abusive (no more than usual), in fact many good balanced opinions and a few cosmic entities. I think it was more site set-up choices. I think we all feel that the site could do with a few modernisation tweets (please talk to somebody about the mail box system it's been crap for 6 years) "
My guess is it has gone for a reason so we are best not bringing it up again |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Give me a clue at what thread made you make this thread and I can answer
It vanished ruggers
You know anything about that?
Ah couldn't have been me then or I might have known what the OP was talking about
It was probably overly critical of the site design to be fair. Rather than the subject. Wasn't too abusive (no more than usual), in fact many good balanced opinions and a few cosmic entities. I think it was more site set-up choices. I think we all feel that the site could do with a few modernisation tweets (please talk to somebody about the mail box system it's been crap for 6 years)
My guess is it has gone for a reason so we are best not bringing it up again "
You notice I didn't mention the subject  ...... no.... no.... I don't want a time out..... no..... I will do ANYTHING  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anything???????? Fig rolls are a fave of mine
Just give me the ban.... no one... but no one gets there hands on my fig rolls...
Ok, five dayer it is
"
Yeah well I got 5 meets lined up anyway. See ya later losers |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anything???????? Fig rolls are a fave of mine
Just give me the ban.... no one... but no one gets there hands on my fig rolls...
Ok, five dayer it is
Yeah well I got 5 meets lined up anyway. See ya later losers "
OMG not laughed that hard in ages!
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Some people take offence at anything and everything. It's not worth losing sleep over. I don't deliberately offend, and I apologise where I feel it's necessary.
But some people... jeez.....  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.
When I think about freedom of speech I think about the struggle against established power, independent thinking, imaginative ideas, a tool of dissent. In effect a vehicle which can allow real change and progress.
This 'medicine' for society does come with side effects. Hate speech, malicious verbal attack.
We have to be willing to deal with the side effects with education, debate, patience and compromise.
If we stop people saying what they think, however uncomfortable that makes us feel, we risk losing more than just the hate. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There's an awful lot of hypocrisy on here!.
.
.
I can't count how many times somebody's wrote something suspect and... Without reproach the same people that go on and on about watching what you say then bully that person with personal insults, only today somebody wrote something very questionable on a thread and two or three people then made remarks about his spelling and grammar.
"
I think there needs to be a new forum ban rule about people bitching about spelling and grammar. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Some people take offence at anything and everything. It's not worth losing sleep over. I don't deliberately offend, and I apologise where I feel it's necessary.
But some people... jeez..... "
I don't have a problem with anyone taking offence at anything, I do though believe that they should be willing to explain why they are offended and be open to challenge and debate on their reasoning for 'taking offence'.
'Feelings' are often brought in to the discussion in order to shut down debate, well if those feelings are unreasonable then they should be challenged too.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol"
What's happening on college campuses around the US is appalling. I know people in academia over there who tell me how awful an environment it has created. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There's an awful lot of hypocrisy on here!.
.
.
I can't count how many times somebody's wrote something suspect and... Without reproach the same people that go on and on about watching what you say then bully that person with personal insults, only today somebody wrote something very questionable on a thread and two or three people then made remarks about his spelling and grammar.
I think there needs to be a new forum ban rule about people bitching about spelling and grammar. "
.
It's just another form of bullying.
Personally I just try to debate the point there making.
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"Some people take offence at anything and everything. It's not worth losing sleep over. I don't deliberately offend, and I apologise where I feel it's necessary.
But some people... jeez.....
I don't have a problem with anyone taking offence at anything, I do though believe that they should be willing to explain why they are offended and be open to challenge and debate on their reasoning for 'taking offence'.
'Feelings' are often brought in to the discussion in order to shut down debate, well if those feelings are unreasonable then they should be challenged too.
"
Exactly. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol
What's happening on college campuses around the US is appalling. I know people in academia over there who tell me how awful an environment it has created."
19-27% of college women and 6-8% of college men are sexually assaulted during their education. Not sure the free speech is the biggest problem affecting US academics environment. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"OK my view
I think everyone should be able to have a view without being abused for it or told they are wrong, after all, it is their view. I have had my mind changed a few times on here with things that where set in my mind but a polite debater made me think of it a different way.
I think once you start abusing someone , be that in real life or on a website you lose all credibility or argument."
Everyone is intitled to an opinion. When it gets abusive that is when the person with the opinion losses credability. I in the past have been guilty of this especially in my "past life" when I was unstable and drinking heavily. Now I try my best to have an opinion without being abusive. I also now avoid certain subjects that I now will turn nasty. I was shocked yesterday when a certain thread turned abusive when it wasn't an abusive topic. But I do belive there are a very few forumites who jump on other forumites just because they don't like the poster. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"OK my view
I think everyone should be able to have a view without being abused for it or told they are wrong, after all, it is their view. I have had my mind changed a few times on here with things that where set in my mind but a polite debater made me think of it a different way.
I think once you start abusing someone , be that in real life or on a website you lose all credibility or argument.
Everyone is intitled to an opinion. When it gets abusive that is when the person with the opinion losses credability. I in the past have been guilty of this especially in my "past life" when I was unstable and drinking heavily. Now I try my best to have an opinion without being abusive. I also now avoid certain subjects that I now will turn nasty. I was shocked yesterday when a certain thread turned abusive when it wasn't an abusive topic. But I do belive there are a very few forumites who jump on other forumites just because they don't like the poster. "
I was surprised too when you started accusing me of being transphobic. Or when you previously called me a cunt for saying you didn't see a ghost. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol
What's happening on college campuses around the US is appalling. I know people in academia over there who tell me how awful an environment it has created.
19-27% of college women and 6-8% of college men are sexually assaulted during their education. Not sure the free speech is the biggest problem affecting US academics environment. "
True. But this thread isn't about sexual assault. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol
What's happening on college campuses around the US is appalling. I know people in academia over there who tell me how awful an environment it has created.
19-27% of college women and 6-8% of college men are sexually assaulted during their education. Not sure the free speech is the biggest problem affecting US academics environment.
True. But this thread isn't about sexual assault. "
My point was that the sexual assaults existed and helped create the SJW culture. You're blaming an angry reaction for the environment, instead of the cause. |
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I have made a point about spelling in other threads as that is my free speech and if others in a thread don't like they can call it as they see it. On the topic changing in a thread again that is what a discussion is about to reach a different place from the starting point ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol
What's happening on college campuses around the US is appalling. I know people in academia over there who tell me how awful an environment it has created.
19-27% of college women and 6-8% of college men are sexually assaulted during their education. Not sure the free speech is the biggest problem affecting US academics environment.
True. But this thread isn't about sexual assault.
My point was that the sexual assaults existed and helped create the SJW culture. You're blaming an angry reaction for the environment, instead of the cause. "
.
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol
What's happening on college campuses around the US is appalling. I know people in academia over there who tell me how awful an environment it has created.
19-27% of college women and 6-8% of college men are sexually assaulted during their education. Not sure the free speech is the biggest problem affecting US academics environment.
True. But this thread isn't about sexual assault.
My point was that the sexual assaults existed and helped create the SJW culture. You're blaming an angry reaction for the environment, instead of the cause. .
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature"
They're usually the ones to support Bernie Sanders |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol
What's happening on college campuses around the US is appalling. I know people in academia over there who tell me how awful an environment it has created.
19-27% of college women and 6-8% of college men are sexually assaulted during their education. Not sure the free speech is the biggest problem affecting US academics environment.
True. But this thread isn't about sexual assault.
My point was that the sexual assaults existed and helped create the SJW culture. You're blaming an angry reaction for the environment, instead of the cause. "
I was making a larger point about the state of free speech on college campuses. Multiple causes can result in an effect and the suppression of speech on college campuses is one of those causes.
And my point was wider than just this instance and just sexual assault issues. If you want some good articles about it you can read The Chronicles of Higher Education who have written a number of such articles. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol
What's happening on college campuses around the US is appalling. I know people in academia over there who tell me how awful an environment it has created.
19-27% of college women and 6-8% of college men are sexually assaulted during their education. Not sure the free speech is the biggest problem affecting US academics environment.
True. But this thread isn't about sexual assault.
My point was that the sexual assaults existed and helped create the SJW culture. You're blaming an angry reaction for the environment, instead of the cause. "
I don't understand the link being made on sexual assaults and the suppression of free speech on college campuses. They appear to be two separate topics unless there is a suggestion that sexual assaults are being used as a weapon against free speech or that the free reporting or discussion on sexual assaults is in some way being suppressed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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if you express extreme views on a subject you will obviously provoke an extreme reaction, that's the whole point of it surely ?
As for bullying you should not post on a forum if you're over sensitive and need somebody to hold your hand.
Some will say things to people on a forum that they would never say in a month of Sundays, if it was face to face interaction. It's really not worth getting upset about and you will always get the opportunity, to level the score one day
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol
What's happening on college campuses around the US is appalling. I know people in academia over there who tell me how awful an environment it has created.
19-27% of college women and 6-8% of college men are sexually assaulted during their education. Not sure the free speech is the biggest problem affecting US academics environment.
True. But this thread isn't about sexual assault.
My point was that the sexual assaults existed and helped create the SJW culture. You're blaming an angry reaction for the environment, instead of the cause. .
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature They're usually the ones to support Bernie Sanders "
.
You mean like the Asher edelman type!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature"
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
"
No, he means literally screaming at you like a toddler not getting their own way |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I think it helps to look at the situation in U.S. Colleges. You get the sjw types demanding safe spaces. There was a case where some students tried to stop Ben Shapiro speaking, because they disagree with his opinion. Rather than try and debate him they blocked the entrances and were violent to other students and the guy needed police escort lol
What's happening on college campuses around the US is appalling. I know people in academia over there who tell me how awful an environment it has created.
19-27% of college women and 6-8% of college men are sexually assaulted during their education. Not sure the free speech is the biggest problem affecting US academics environment.
True. But this thread isn't about sexual assault.
My point was that the sexual assaults existed and helped create the SJW culture. You're blaming an angry reaction for the environment, instead of the cause.
I don't understand the link being made on sexual assaults and the suppression of free speech on college campuses. They appear to be two separate topics unless there is a suggestion that sexual assaults are being used as a weapon against free speech or that the free reporting or discussion on sexual assaults is in some way being suppressed. "
It was said that SJW are making life intolerable on campuses. I said that SJW are reactionary and to blame them for life being intolerable would be wrong. It wasn't in response to the OP, it was in response to one specific comment. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
"
.
Watch "Yale University Students Protest Halloween Costume Email (VIDEO 3)" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/9IEFD_JVYd0.
.
.
I think he was trying to explain to her how freedom of speech works!.
.
.
What she did is shut the debate down with regressive bullshit |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
No, he means literally screaming at you like a toddler not getting their own way "
That doesn't change my response. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
No, he means literally screaming at you like a toddler not getting their own way
That doesn't change my response. "
.
No my question would be how many people got assaulted by people wearing Halloween costumes?.
Now she felt threatened by an email saying that wearing one was your freedom to do so, if she doesn't like, screaming abuse at him isn't really an argument!.
Now if her argument is people shouldn't be allowed to wear clothing that hides their identity, then she then can't scream abuse at people who wish to disrobe Muslim women!.
I think screaming abuse to justify your beliefs and get your own way is generally a bad idea. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
No, he means literally screaming at you like a toddler not getting their own way
That doesn't change my response. .
No my question would be how many people got assaulted by people wearing Halloween costumes?.
Now she felt threatened by an email saying that wearing one was your freedom to do so, if she doesn't like, screaming abuse at him isn't really an argument!.
Now if her argument is people shouldn't be allowed to wear clothing that hides their identity, then she then can't scream abuse at people who wish to disrobe Muslim women!.
I think screaming abuse to justify your beliefs and get your own way is generally a bad idea."
Not to mention the growing trend of canceling guest speakers because students are offended by the speaker and don't want them coming to their college. When I was at university we had Karl Rove debate Howard Dean. It was a great debate. People stood outside and protested Karl Rove as a war criminal, but he was allowed to debate. Recently more and more people are having to cancel speeches because of the suppression of free speech on campuses.
All of these assaults on free speech are building a weird environment on college campuses in the US, campuses that were previously the hotbeds of free expression and thought. It's sad to watch it happen. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
No, he means literally screaming at you like a toddler not getting their own way
That doesn't change my response. .
No my question would be how many people got assaulted by people wearing Halloween costumes?.
Now she felt threatened by an email saying that wearing one was your freedom to do so, if she doesn't like, screaming abuse at him isn't really an argument!.
Now if her argument is people shouldn't be allowed to wear clothing that hides their identity, then she then can't scream abuse at people who wish to disrobe Muslim women!.
I think screaming abuse to justify your beliefs and get your own way is generally a bad idea.
Not to mention the growing trend of canceling guest speakers because students are offended by the speaker and don't want them coming to their college. When I was at university we had Karl Rove debate Howard Dean. It was a great debate. People stood outside and protested Karl Rove as a war criminal, but he was allowed to debate. Recently more and more people are having to cancel speeches because of the suppression of free speech on campuses.
All of these assaults on free speech are building a weird environment on college campuses in the US, campuses that were previously the hotbeds of free expression and thought. It's sad to watch it happen."
Quite recently Richard Dawkins was no platformed and I think the stress of that made him really ill |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
.
Watch "Yale University Students Protest Halloween Costume Email (VIDEO 3)" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/9IEFD_JVYd0.
.
.
I think he was trying to explain to her how freedom of speech works!.
.
.
What she did is shut the debate down with regressive bullshit"
No she didn't. She opened the debate up massively to a point where you and I are referring to it on a swingers site.
Her action has probably 'educated' more people than she could imagine.
Can you start to measure the amount of progress?
Having watched your Youtube clip and a couple others linked to it, it only reinforces my first response to you.
I disagree with your view. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
No, he means literally screaming at you like a toddler not getting their own way
That doesn't change my response. .
No my question would be how many people got assaulted by people wearing Halloween costumes?.
Now she felt threatened by an email saying that wearing one was your freedom to do so, if she doesn't like, screaming abuse at him isn't really an argument!.
Now if her argument is people shouldn't be allowed to wear clothing that hides their identity, then she then can't scream abuse at people who wish to disrobe Muslim women!.
I think screaming abuse to justify your beliefs and get your own way is generally a bad idea."
I'm not debating the specific merit of her argument, i'm debating the merit of your argument. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Give me a clue at what thread made you make this thread and I can answer yes I wonder which it was!!!"
I know which one too lol. Just cos they dont agree with us, doesnt make them right. We all got opinions. It would be boring if everyone agreed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
.
Watch "Yale University Students Protest Halloween Costume Email (VIDEO 3)" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/9IEFD_JVYd0.
.
.
I think he was trying to explain to her how freedom of speech works!.
.
.
What she did is shut the debate down with regressive bullshit
No she didn't. She opened the debate up massively to a point where you and I are referring to it on a swingers site.
Her action has probably 'educated' more people than she could imagine.
Can you start to measure the amount of progress?
Having watched your Youtube clip and a couple others linked to it, it only reinforces my first response to you.
I disagree with your view."
.
I understand your point, I'm not trying to convince you that your wrong and I'm right.
My point was about shutting down that debate...
So imagine that half way through this reply you start shouting "you white honky you've got it in for me you sexist racist misogynist".
Two things happen,
1 that shit sticks
2 the debate ends
.
This tactic is usually used as the debate comes to a point where one side actually makes more sense than the other and is really only used as a face saving exercise by the losing side.
.
We moved away from teachers just screaming abuse at students that don't do as they're told because its regressive by nature
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Having an 18 year old girl scream abuse at you while you try to educate them on the benefits of free speech does not make for progress in my book!.
Sure there's a problem, I'm all for people taking direct action but mostly this attitude is just regressive by nature
I disagree with you. The situation you describe is more progressive in its nature.
The 18 year old girl is simply challenging you. If your argument has sufficient merit then it is for you to convince her of its merit or to compromise.
Her view may have more merit than yours.
.
Watch "Yale University Students Protest Halloween Costume Email (VIDEO 3)" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/9IEFD_JVYd0.
.
.
I think he was trying to explain to her how freedom of speech works!.
.
.
What she did is shut the debate down with regressive bullshit
No she didn't. She opened the debate up massively to a point where you and I are referring to it on a swingers site.
Her action has probably 'educated' more people than she could imagine.
Can you start to measure the amount of progress?
Having watched your Youtube clip and a couple others linked to it, it only reinforces my first response to you.
I disagree with your view..
I understand your point, I'm not trying to convince you that your wrong and I'm right.
My point was about shutting down that debate...
So imagine that half way through this reply you start shouting "you white honky you've got it in for me you sexist racist misogynist".
Two things happen,
1 that shit sticks
2 the debate ends
.
This tactic is usually used as the debate comes to a point where one side actually makes more sense than the other and is really only used as a face saving exercise by the losing side.
.
We moved away from teachers just screaming abuse at students that don't do as they're told because its regressive by nature
"
I agree with your point that abuse is often the last stance of someone who has realised they are losing the argument.
For some though unless they are challenged into the uncomfortable position where they rely on a negative defence mechanism to save face, they don't learn or progress.
When I consider the example you suggested - if I became abusive to you during this debate. I would suggest a third option. I hope that your response would be to methodically disect the merit of each abusive point in order to completely invalidate my argument.
Abusive people usually want debate to end, why 'take offence' and let them off the hook?
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You're entitled to your opinion of course. But I'm equally entitled to call you out as a bigoted dinosaur for holding that opinion.
If you hold old fashioned conservative views on sexualities and choice, it's best to remember the adage -
'Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and confirm it to everybody'
That can apply the other way round."
That is right as it can be the other way around too, some of us are still holding original views about things |
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By *uzy444Woman
over a year ago
in the suffolk countryside |
speech always brings consequences..so these days on forums such as these, where i could receive consequences for stating my opinions which would ruin my time here, i don't bother saying anything anymore..its that simple..
outside of here i use discernment, silence is often best, most people only want you to agree with them anyways, they talk so much that your silence is hardly noticed |
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By *ugby 123Couple
over a year ago
Forum Mod O o O oo |
"There's an awful lot of hypocrisy on here!.
.
.
I can't count how many times somebody's wrote something suspect and... Without reproach the same people that go on and on about watching what you say then bully that person with personal insults, only today somebody wrote something very questionable on a thread and two or three people then made remarks about his spelling and grammar.
I think there needs to be a new forum ban rule about people bitching about spelling and grammar. "
It comes under bitching. People who do it a lot get banned for it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"speech always brings consequences..so these days on forums such as these, where i could receive consequences for stating my opinions which would ruin my time here, i don't bother saying anything anymore..its that simple..
outside of here i use discernment, silence is often best, most people only want you to agree with them anyways, they talk so much that your silence is hardly noticed "
I like your thoughts and style |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"speech always brings consequences..so these days on forums such as these, where i could receive consequences for stating my opinions which would ruin my time here, i don't bother saying anything anymore..its that simple..
outside of here i use discernment, silence is often best, most people only want you to agree with them anyways, they talk so much that your silence is hardly noticed "
Be quiet |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"There's an awful lot of hypocrisy on here!.
.
.
I can't count how many times somebody's wrote something suspect and... Without reproach the same people that go on and on about watching what you say then bully that person with personal insults, only today somebody wrote something very questionable on a thread and two or three people then made remarks about his spelling and grammar.
I think there needs to be a new forum ban rule about people bitching about spelling and grammar.
It comes under bitching. People who do it a lot get banned for it."
That's cheered me up. |
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