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Chinese Steel
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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OK...so we all know China is "dumping" subsidised, and quite frankly substandard (crap) steel on the world markets. USA have imposed 260% tariffs on this steel to protect their own industry.
For whatever reason (actually I don't care at this moment if it is EU can't/wont act or if it is Cameron leading the inaction) we are unable to or unwilling to impose similar action.
China has now...to add insult to injury imposed 46% tariffs on EU and British steel. (Like we actually sell steel to China?).
Don't know about you...but I'm gonna check the label on everything I may buy....I think we should all boycot ALL Chinese goods. Let's face it...the majority are shoddy/fake/dangerous anyway.
Cameron and Osborne serum obsessed with sucking up to China so we can sell stuff to them...this is NEVER going to happen on any kind of scale. China has just one thing in mind...taking over world trade for their own benefit.
Who else thinks we should start, where possible, with ditching shoddy Chinese goods? |
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"OK...so we all know China is "dumping" subsidised, and quite frankly substandard (crap) steel on the world markets. USA have imposed 260% tariffs on this steel to protect their own industry.
For whatever reason (actually I don't care at this moment if it is EU can't/wont act or if it is Cameron leading the inaction) we are unable to or unwilling to impose similar action.
China has now...to add insult to injury imposed 46% tariffs on EU and British steel. (Like we actually sell steel to China?).
Don't know about you...but I'm gonna check the label on everything I may buy....I think we should all boycot ALL Chinese goods. Let's face it...the majority are shoddy/fake/dangerous anyway.
Cameron and Osborne serum obsessed with sucking up to China so we can sell stuff to them...this is NEVER going to happen on any kind of scale. China has just one thing in mind...taking over world trade for their own benefit.
Who else thinks we should start, where possible, with ditching shoddy Chinese goods?"
Please tell me this won't include me having to boycott my local Chinese takeaway ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"OK...so we all know China is "dumping" subsidised, and quite frankly substandard (crap) steel on the world markets. USA have imposed 260% tariffs on this steel to protect their own industry.
For whatever reason (actually I don't care at this moment if it is EU can't/wont act or if it is Cameron leading the inaction) we are unable to or unwilling to impose similar action.
China has now...to add insult to injury imposed 46% tariffs on EU and British steel. (Like we actually sell steel to China?).
Don't know about you...but I'm gonna check the label on everything I may buy....I think we should all boycot ALL Chinese goods. Let's face it...the majority are shoddy/fake/dangerous anyway.
Cameron and Osborne serum obsessed with sucking up to China so we can sell stuff to them...this is NEVER going to happen on any kind of scale. China has just one thing in mind...taking over world trade for their own benefit.
Who else thinks we should start, where possible, with ditching shoddy Chinese goods?"
Where do you get your information for the Chinese "substandard crap" from may I ask ?? |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"I am sure I heard on the news that the starting salary at Port Talbot was 30k, that's a good salary.
if I misheard,  "
its a good salary because its a skilled trade and once its gone its gone so yes its gets a premium salary |
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"I am sure I heard on the news that the starting salary at Port Talbot was 30k, that's a good salary.
if I misheard, "
If that's all it is I would be worried, it's a dangerous, unpleasant job, highly skilled job undertaken in poor conditions on shifts that most of us would never wish to work in, I have worked in steel works as a professional and you have to have respect for the people who do. Unfortunately we live in a society will does not value the artsan tradesman so that why you get comments like they get paid 30k and sound supprised at it. |
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The EU wanted to impose tariffs. The British government has for the last three years been blocking efforts by the EU to equip itself with the sort of anti-dumping weaponry used by Washington to confront China
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/30/britain-sacrifices-steel-industry-to-curry-favour-with-china/ |
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The Chinese do make a lot of tat but they make product to a market, if you pay pennies expect rubbish, you pay then top dollar you will get a Rolls Royce, the steel they produce is fine for what it's used for, and it will be quality sanpled and tested before use anyway.
Base production of iron, which is what these 'steel works' do is at the start of the process as a raw feed stuff, the steel making is a process that follows on from that base iron production both Port Talbot and Scunthope are integrated works so take raw material in and send out a finished process, they are a key strategic industry and I think should be protected but maybe they should be focusesd on only producing added value products like the specialist steels that China is now looking to prevent us exporting. Who knows but it will be a sad day for the nation that was the cradle of the industrial revolution to be the first to lose its own base iron production, I can't see that as a nation we can survive on service sector jobs only l, at some point we need to take a low values base material and make it into something if value, manufacturing makes real money, that's why we were a world super power once and China is now, can the same value come from shuffling bits of paper? |
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"When Bush imposed high tarrifs on imported steel in America it ruined the car industry there so it is a difficult one"
Thats not what did for the US motor industry...
What did for the US motor industry was their unwillingness to stop manufacturing gas guzzlers when the price of fuel was going through the roof. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Chinese do make a lot of tat but they make product to a market, if you pay pennies expect rubbish, you pay then top dollar you will get a Rolls Royce, the steel they produce is fine for what it's used for, and it will be quality sanpled and tested before use anyway.
Base production of iron, which is what these 'steel works' do is at the start of the process as a raw feed stuff, the steel making is a process that follows on from that base iron production both Port Talbot and Scunthope are integrated works so take raw material in and send out a finished process, they are a key strategic industry and I think should be protected but maybe they should be focusesd on only producing added value products like the specialist steels that China is now looking to prevent us exporting. Who knows but it will be a sad day for the nation that was the cradle of the industrial revolution to be the first to lose its own base iron production, I can't see that as a nation we can survive on service sector jobs only l, at some point we need to take a low values base material and make it into something if value, manufacturing makes real money, that's why we were a world super power once and China is now, can the same value come from shuffling bits of paper?"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"When Bush imposed high tarrifs on imported steel in America it ruined the car industry there so it is a difficult one
Thats not what did for the US motor industry...
What did for the US motor industry was their unwillingness to stop manufacturing gas guzzlers when the price of fuel was going through the roof. "
As if |
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"The Chinese do make a lot of tat but they make product to a market, if you pay pennies expect rubbish, you pay then top dollar you will get a Rolls Royce, the steel they produce is fine for what it's used for, and it will be quality sanpled and tested before use anyway.
Base production of iron, which is what these 'steel works' do is at the start of the process as a raw feed stuff, the steel making is a process that follows on from that base iron production both Port Talbot and Scunthope are integrated works so take raw material in and send out a finished process, they are a key strategic industry and I think should be protected but maybe they should be focusesd on only producing added value products like the specialist steels that China is now looking to prevent us exporting. Who knows but it will be a sad day for the nation that was the cradle of the industrial revolution to be the first to lose its own base iron production, I can't see that as a nation we can survive on service sector jobs only l, at some point we need to take a low values base material and make it into something if value, manufacturing makes real money, that's why we were a world super power once and China is now, can the same value come from shuffling bits of paper?"
Agreed, agreed and agreed! Thomas Telford and the Iron Masters of Ironbridge and Broseley must be rolling in their graves!  |
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I do wonder why Scunthorpe is virtually a news blackout over all this, one difference I guess is that Redcar and Port Talbot are supersized blast furnaces, The 4 queens at Scunthorpe are modest and can almost be turned on and off as demand requires, so I suspect are a more attractive to a prospective buyer without the same devastating effect that blowing out one of the big boys at Port Talbot, when Redcar did, I am told by a friend working on decommissioning, what he described as the 'industrial vandalism' of Redcar that the blast furnace has sunk by 4 feet since being blown out and would never work again, I suspect the next time we see it will be its controlled demolition on TV. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The EU needs to impose an Anti Dumping Duty and a Minimum Import Price on all steel imports including American. America was dumping steel here before the Chinese started it.
Problem is last time they tried it the Americans really took the hump !
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"I am sure I heard on the news that the starting salary at Port Talbot was 30k, that's a good salary.
if I misheard,
starting salary for which of the hundreds of job rolls? "
Well said the cleaner in the offices, van driver and hundreds of ancillary staff will be nothing like this. |
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"The Chinese do make a lot of tat but they make product to a market, if you pay pennies expect rubbish, you pay then top dollar you will get a Rolls Royce, the steel they produce is fine for what it's used for, and it will be quality sanpled and tested before use anyway.
Base production of iron, which is what these 'steel works' do is at the start of the process as a raw feed stuff, the steel making is a process that follows on from that base iron production both Port Talbot and Scunthope are integrated works so take raw material in and send out a finished process, they are a key strategic industry and I think should be protected but maybe they should be focusesd on only producing added value products like the specialist steels that China is now looking to prevent us exporting. Who knows but it will be a sad day for the nation that was the cradle of the industrial revolution to be the first to lose its own base iron production, I can't see that as a nation we can survive on service sector jobs only l, at some point we need to take a low values base material and make it into something if value, manufacturing makes real money, that's why we were a world super power once and China is now, can the same value come from shuffling bits of paper?
Agreed, agreed and agreed! Thomas Telford and the Iron Masters of Ironbridge and Broseley must be rolling in their graves! "
That's the logic of capital, nothing more. |
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"The Chinese do make a lot of tat but they make product to a market, if you pay pennies expect rubbish, you pay then top dollar you will get a Rolls Royce, the steel they produce is fine for what it's used for, and it will be quality sanpled and tested before use anyway.
Base production of iron, which is what these 'steel works' do is at the start of the process as a raw feed stuff, the steel making is a process that follows on from that base iron production both Port Talbot and Scunthope are integrated works so take raw material in and send out a finished process, they are a key strategic industry and I think should be protected but maybe they should be focusesd on only producing added value products like the specialist steels that China is now looking to prevent us exporting. Who knows but it will be a sad day for the nation that was the cradle of the industrial revolution to be the first to lose its own base iron production, I can't see that as a nation we can survive on service sector jobs only l, at some point we need to take a low values base material and make it into something if value, manufacturing makes real money, that's why we were a world super power once and China is now, can the same value come from shuffling bits of paper?"
Well said the uk has forgot it roots, and the real power house of any country is manufacturing if you only import products and depend on hi tech jobs to pay for it, then your on a slippery slope. A country needs to create jobs for all skill level and one of those skills we are losing is making stuff |
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"The Chinese do make a lot of tat but they make product to a market, if you pay pennies expect rubbish, you pay then top dollar you will get a Rolls Royce, the steel they produce is fine for what it's used for, and it will be quality sanpled and tested before use anyway.
Base production of iron, which is what these 'steel works' do is at the start of the process as a raw feed stuff, the steel making is a process that follows on from that base iron production both Port Talbot and Scunthope are integrated works so take raw material in and send out a finished process, they are a key strategic industry and I think should be protected but maybe they should be focusesd on only producing added value products like the specialist steels that China is now looking to prevent us exporting. Who knows but it will be a sad day for the nation that was the cradle of the industrial revolution to be the first to lose its own base iron production, I can't see that as a nation we can survive on service sector jobs only l, at some point we need to take a low values base material and make it into something if value, manufacturing makes real money, that's why we were a world super power once and China is now, can the same value come from shuffling bits of paper?
Well said the uk has forgot it roots, and the real power house of any country is manufacturing if you only import products and depend on hi tech jobs to pay for it, then your on a slippery slope. A country needs to create jobs for all skill level and one of those skills we are losing is making stuff"
Consymers want stuff cheap and uk manufactured goods are not cheap |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"OK...so we all know China is "dumping" subsidised, and quite frankly substandard (crap) steel on the world markets. USA have imposed 260% tariffs on this steel to protect their own industry.
For whatever reason (actually I don't care at this moment if it is EU can't/wont act or if it is Cameron leading the inaction) we are unable to or unwilling to impose similar action.
China has now...to add insult to injury imposed 46% tariffs on EU and British steel. (Like we actually sell steel to China?).
Don't know about you...but I'm gonna check the label on everything I may buy....I think we should all boycot ALL Chinese goods. Let's face it...the majority are shoddy/fake/dangerous anyway.
Cameron and Osborne serum obsessed with sucking up to China so we can sell stuff to them...this is NEVER going to happen on any kind of scale. China has just one thing in mind...taking over world trade for their own benefit.
Who else thinks we should start, where possible, with ditching shoddy Chinese goods?"
Typical xenophobic crap you get on fab all the time.
Stupid logic to go with it as well. If you don't like British or EU policy then lobby your MP instead of proposing something that takes it out on ordinary Chinese people that aren't involved in politics. |
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By *errygTV/TS
over a year ago
denton |
a lot of chinese steel is crap , look in metal scrap at local tip full of silver grey bed frames 50 quid bikes all made in china, my mate has a small engineer shop and he said it is difficult to get decent stuff, i have a welding set at home you try and weld some chinese made goods,compared to some old british steel |
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"a lot of chinese steel is crap , look in metal scrap at local tip full of silver grey bed frames 50 quid bikes all made in china, my mate has a small engineer shop and he said it is difficult to get decent stuff, i have a welding set at home you try and weld some chinese made goods,compared to some old british steel"
Have you ever tried welding and working on old bed iron? I can just remember this being rolled at the Vono... Oh yes they didn't just make beds they were part of Stewart's and Lloyds Round Oak steel works (now merry hill shopping centre) it would often come off the rolls in two diffrent bits because it was such poor quality, but it was fit for the job, we made cheep stuff for a cheep job, we don't anymore as it's cheaper to have the whole job done in China, I'm very sure the Chinese can make first class steel just as much as we can why else would they want to protect there industry from our exports.
The Chinese are fine craftsmen and have been for centuries don't kid yourself that they are not, what is odd is how a communist country is doing so well at capitalism, no one expected that did they!
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Well for a start the so called sub standard steel myth has to be debuncked. Yes the Chinese are dumping steel on the world markets at a lose to them but it's not sub standard.
For steel and anything else for that matter to be used in this country and the EU it has to meet required standards for what it is used for. If it does not meet those standards the person or company useing become liable should there be a problem in the future. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"the people shouting the loudest may very well be the main buyer of all goods chinese, they make express their outrage on a screen....... but they won't boycott"
On a screen and a PC which is most likely made in China lol - Oh the irony
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As a nation we need to fight to keep a steel industry just as Italy, France and Germany will and do. If that means keeping the furnaces lit to preserve for the future so be it. Strange how the Tories haven't the interest in industry outside the hone counties. Javed should be sacked now. |
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"the people shouting the loudest may very well be the main buyer of all goods chinese, they make express their outrage on a screen....... but they won't boycott
On a screen and a PC which is most likely made in China lol - Oh the irony
"
My screen is probably made in South Korea and my processor is made in Vietnam, my motherboard and video card are made in Taiwan.
Maybe the case is made in China and it is definitely cheap steel not iron(y).
 |
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"Well for a start the so called sub standard steel myth has to be debuncked. Yes the Chinese are dumping steel on the world markets at a lose to them but it's not sub standard.
For steel and anything else for that matter to be used in this country and the EU it has to meet required standards for what it is used for. If it does not meet those standards the person or company useing become liable should there be a problem in the future. "
It was on sky news earlier that China is putting up steel tariffs on "Hi-tech" steel which is made in the UK. This type of reporting seems to suggest Chinese steel is sub standard. |
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"Well for a start the so called sub standard steel myth has to be debuncked. Yes the Chinese are dumping steel on the world markets at a lose to them but it's not sub standard.
For steel and anything else for that matter to be used in this country and the EU it has to meet required standards for what it is used for. If it does not meet those standards the person or company useing become liable should there be a problem in the future.
It was on sky news earlier that China is putting up steel tariffs on "Hi-tech" steel which is made in the UK. This type of reporting seems to suggest Chinese steel is sub standard. "
They will mean special steels, tool steels, high tensile, the things that we excell in and largely was hived off and away from Corus/Tata some years ago, Sheffield has still got a steel industry for example but not much of it is Tata. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Nothing wrong with Chinese stuff, but we still need manufacturing, and if that means protecting or industry, nothing wrong with that."
True. But EU rules say we can't.
Not that Germany France and Italy take any notice of that because they realise the importance of the steel industry to a nation |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"OK...so we all know China is "dumping" subsidised, and quite frankly substandard (crap) steel on the world markets. USA have imposed 260% tariffs on this steel to protect their own industry.
For whatever reason (actually I don't care at this moment if it is EU can't/wont act or if it is Cameron leading the inaction) we are unable to or unwilling to impose similar action.
China has now...to add insult to injury imposed 46% tariffs on EU and British steel. (Like we actually sell steel to China?).
Don't know about you...but I'm gonna check the label on everything I may buy....I think we should all boycot ALL Chinese goods. Let's face it...the majority are shoddy/fake/dangerous anyway.
Cameron and Osborne serum obsessed with sucking up to China so we can sell stuff to them...this is NEVER going to happen on any kind of scale. China has just one thing in mind...taking over world trade for their own benefit.
Who else thinks we should start, where possible, with ditching shoddy Chinese goods?"
I don't think that you realise how difficult that would be if the UK vote out of the eu and set up new trade deals like the out campaign is saying then China would be a major trading partner you wouldn't really have a choice but to buy there goods |
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It's like everything though.
People in this country want high levels of animal husbandry, which puts the cost of meat up. Then they buy cheap imported meat from countries with very low standards of animal care...
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"Nothing wrong with Chinese stuff, but we still need manufacturing, and if that means protecting or industry, nothing wrong with that.
True. But EU rules say we can't.
Not that Germany France and Italy take any notice of that because they realise the importance of the steel industry to a nation"
the EU say we cant because cameron and gideon have been blocking them doing for the last two years got fuck all to do with being the EUs fault and everything to do with Gideon sucking up to the chinese to bank roll them hence there do nothing atitude |
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"It's like everything though.
People in this country want high levels of animal husbandry, which puts the cost of meat up. Then they buy cheap imported meat from countries with very low standards of animal care...
"
Very true
Whilst every individual job loss is a tragedy,
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/jan/13/recession-retail
puts it into perspective. I don't recall Gordon nationalising Woolies, or even doing much else about the hundreds of thousands of people who were laid off. Perhaps since Woolies staff tended to be female their jobs were somehow less important?
Mr ddc |
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"It's like everything though.
People in this country want high levels of animal husbandry, which puts the cost of meat up. Then they buy cheap imported meat from countries with very low standards of animal care...
"
Dont I know it, have been involed with farming most of my life, farmers here are some of the best in the world producing some of the highest standards in food production, yet as we speak uk buyers are in Brazil buying meat, with no farm quality standards, feed traceability standards or much else |
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"It's like everything though.
People in this country want high levels of animal husbandry, which puts the cost of meat up. Then they buy cheap imported meat from countries with very low standards of animal care...
Very true
Whilst every individual job loss is a tragedy,
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/jan/13/recession-retail
puts it into perspective. I don't recall Gordon nationalising Woolies, or even doing much else about the hundreds of thousands of people who were laid off. Perhaps since Woolies staff tended to be female their jobs were somehow less important?
Mr ddc"
I don't see retail as a strategic industry that could be of vital importance, depends what value you put on manufacturing, we have given up on our own fuel production and subcontracted that to the rest of the world, I would say the water but although it falls from the sky's I don't think we have a UK owned water utility, not to worry so why not steel, we have already sold it to the Indians via the Dutch they can most likely produce it cheaper in India and still sell it to us.
Defence costs a lot of money, I wonder if we could put that out to privatisation on a lowest cost basis, North Korea have quite a good army you never know they might be the successful bidder, free market economy, great stuff but at which point do you say ok, as a nation we should really have this in our control just in case...
We're an odd country the UK we have one shining example of a privatised state industry that has done really well, BT, yet we seam hell bent on breaking it up so instead of it buying companies around the world and growing UK PLC it can be taken over an another asset disappears off shore.
Just a thought I doubt anything said if fab makes one iota of difference, Scunny and Margam will be gone in a few weeks time. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Camerloon kow tows to the Chinese because of desperation in keeping them on board for hinkley point,think what the situations going to be kik when the Chinese are in control,along with French government,making decision on edf involvement in may,of our power generation,fuck the lot of them off n do it ourselves for better or worse |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The solution to many problems could be found in carbon tax!.
Once the world brings in carbon pricing (and yes it will come) Chinese steel will be priced accordingly to how much c02 it produced!.
It was intended as a way to get industry to bring in a switch from fossil fuel to sustainable quickly through innovation but it would certainly help in many other areas where we see big problems |
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"Camerloon kow tows to the Chinese because of desperation in keeping them on board for hinkley point,think what the situations going to be kik when the Chinese are in control,along with French government,making decision on edf involvement in may,of our power generation,fuck the lot of them off n do it ourselves for better or worse"
You wouldn't think we had invented nuclear power would you.... Funny that we used to build our power stations... With British steel. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"When Bush imposed high tarrifs on imported steel in America it ruined the car industry there so it is a difficult one
Thats not what did for the US motor industry...
What did for the US motor industry was their unwillingness to stop manufacturing gas guzzlers when the price of fuel was going through the roof. "
.
It wasn't one thing but many small accumulated effects from free trade agreements to a lack of development to a high dollar cost to us car industry executives greed! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Nothing wrong with Chinese stuff, but we still need manufacturing, and if that means protecting or industry, nothing wrong with that.
True. But EU rules say we can't.
Not that Germany France and Italy take any notice of that because they realise the importance of the steel industry to a nationthe EU say we cant because cameron and gideon have been blocking them doing for the last two years got fuck all to do with being the EUs fault and everything to do with Gideon sucking up to the chinese to bank roll them hence there do nothing atitude"
Dya wanna check the EU rules mate before you come out with crap? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"a lot of chinese steel is crap , look in metal scrap at local tip full of silver grey bed frames 50 quid bikes all made in china, my mate has a small engineer shop and he said it is difficult to get decent stuff, i have a welding set at home you try and weld some chinese made goods,compared to some old british steel"
Exactly this....their "base steel" is often full of recycled stuff which is not properly sorted....hence the problems anyone who works in fabrication has come across far too often! |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"Nothing wrong with Chinese stuff, but we still need manufacturing, and if that means protecting or industry, nothing wrong with that.
True. But EU rules say we can't.
Not that Germany France and Italy take any notice of that because they realise the importance of the steel industry to a nationthe EU say we cant because cameron and gideon have been blocking them doing for the last two years got fuck all to do with being the EUs fault and everything to do with Gideon sucking up to the chinese to bank roll them hence there do nothing atitude
Dya wanna check the EU rules mate before you come out with crap?"
oh loook there the "crap " coming strait from call me daves mouth http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/01/cameron-defends-blocking-steel-tariffs-as-javid-faces-workers-anger |
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By *umpkinMan
over a year ago
near the sounds of the wimborne quarter jack! |
"The solution to many problems could be found in carbon tax!.
Once the world brings in carbon pricing (and yes it will come) Chinese steel will be priced accordingly to how much c02 it produced!.
It was intended as a way to get industry to bring in a switch from fossil fuel to sustainable quickly through innovation but it would certainly help in many other areas where we see big problems"
And carbon tax is the real reason why our steel industry will go. We want a "clean" country and getting rid of polluting industries like steel making is a big step towards that goal. The fact that the pollution is merely moved around the globe is neither here or there! As long as we cut out emissions - job done! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The solution to many problems could be found in carbon tax!.
Once the world brings in carbon pricing (and yes it will come) Chinese steel will be priced accordingly to how much c02 it produced!.
It was intended as a way to get industry to bring in a switch from fossil fuel to sustainable quickly through innovation but it would certainly help in many other areas where we see big problems
And carbon tax is the real reason why our steel industry will go. We want a "clean" country and getting rid of polluting industries like steel making is a big step towards that goal. The fact that the pollution is merely moved around the globe is neither here or there! As long as we cut out emissions - job done!"
.
There is no carbon tax at the moment!.
The plan is to implement a global price on c02 that will rise yearly by a set amount, so the more c02 you produce the more tax you pay, this is then levied out to everybody on an equality basis!.
Chinese steel would obviously be more expensive as
1 they actually produce more c02 per tonne of steel manufactured.
2 it's transported from China to the UK via fossil fuel (ie more c02).
.
.
The actual point of the scheme was to introduce an incentive to businesses to innovate alternatives to fossil fuels and obviously the biggest polluters pay the biggest share and this money goes straight to the people who produce the least c02 |
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"The solution to many problems could be found in carbon tax!.
Once the world brings in carbon pricing (and yes it will come) Chinese steel will be priced accordingly to how much c02 it produced!.
It was intended as a way to get industry to bring in a switch from fossil fuel to sustainable quickly through innovation but it would certainly help in many other areas where we see big problems
And carbon tax is the real reason why our steel industry will go. We want a "clean" country and getting rid of polluting industries like steel making is a big step towards that goal. The fact that the pollution is merely moved around the globe is neither here or there! As long as we cut out emissions - job done!.
There is no carbon tax at the moment!.
The plan is to implement a global price on c02 that will rise yearly by a set amount, so the more c02 you produce the more tax you pay, this is then levied out to everybody on an equality basis!.
Chinese steel would obviously be more expensive as
1 they actually produce more c02 per tonne of steel manufactured.
2 it's transported from China to the UK via fossil fuel (ie more c02).
.
.
The actual point of the scheme was to introduce an incentive to businesses to innovate alternatives to fossil fuels and obviously the biggest polluters pay the biggest share and this money goes straight to the people who produce the least c02"
Co2 isnt the problem check out
The effects of methane, caused by animals, a real eye opener |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The solution to many problems could be found in carbon tax!.
Once the world brings in carbon pricing (and yes it will come) Chinese steel will be priced accordingly to how much c02 it produced!.
It was intended as a way to get industry to bring in a switch from fossil fuel to sustainable quickly through innovation but it would certainly help in many other areas where we see big problems
And carbon tax is the real reason why our steel industry will go. We want a "clean" country and getting rid of polluting industries like steel making is a big step towards that goal. The fact that the pollution is merely moved around the globe is neither here or there! As long as we cut out emissions - job done!.
There is no carbon tax at the moment!.
The plan is to implement a global price on c02 that will rise yearly by a set amount, so the more c02 you produce the more tax you pay, this is then levied out to everybody on an equality basis!.
Chinese steel would obviously be more expensive as
1 they actually produce more c02 per tonne of steel manufactured.
2 it's transported from China to the UK via fossil fuel (ie more c02).
.
.
The actual point of the scheme was to introduce an incentive to businesses to innovate alternatives to fossil fuels and obviously the biggest polluters pay the biggest share and this money goes straight to the people who produce the least c02
Co2 isnt the problem check out
The effects of methane, caused by animals, a real eye opener "
.
Yeah there also really bad although that effect isn't really as bad as c02 accumulation through human life.
The real problem with methane is the massive amounts of it stored in frozen tundra and seabeds (methane clathrate) in the northern hemisphere, if we continue on the warming trend we are on now then it is inevitable that this methane will be brought into play in the very near future and that really does have the ability to bring in very rapid and devastating climate change (I think one study published in the journal of nature showed it would/has lead to a 10 degree global rise in only a ten year timescale). |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"World" rules on CO2 production sound great....can anyone give an example of a world rule on anything that has actually gone through...been acted on....worked...?
Event he Geneva Convention/rules on human rights are ignored by many countries....including China |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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""World" rules on CO2 production sound great....can anyone give an example of a world rule on anything that has actually gone through...been acted on....worked...?
Event he Geneva Convention/rules on human rights are ignored by many countries....including China"
.
What they've outlined is a basic tax charge at source.
So the idea is to put "a cost" on each fossil fuel resource produced this would be paid direct by producers, ie oil companies, mining companies(think of it like breweries with beer tax, the strongest beers pay the most duty). So anyhow obviously the more a product users a fossil fuel the more of the tax it accumulates.
This tax starts at a low level and rises a set amount every year!, this is intended as an incentive to stop using a fossil fuel and to make capital seek to innovate away from it!.
The different thing in this tax is that, what they intend is to redistribute all the tax back to every person on an equitable basis meaning the heavy users pay in more but get the same back as the person who pays in less!.
Also with it being levied direct at source it would be very hard to avoid!.
.
.
The effect on something like Chinese steel produce would be that Chinese steel would be more expensive as it's being shipped by fossil fuel and is made using more fossil fuel than Western steel, in reality it equals out the cost of the cheap labour equation |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Nothing wrong with Chinese stuff, but we still need manufacturing, and if that means protecting or industry, nothing wrong with that.
True. But EU rules say we can't.
Not that Germany France and Italy take any notice of that because they realise the importance of the steel industry to a nationthe EU say we cant because cameron and gideon have been blocking them doing for the last two years got fuck all to do with being the EUs fault and everything to do with Gideon sucking up to the chinese to bank roll them hence there do nothing atitude
Dya wanna check the EU rules mate before you come out with crap?oh loook there the "crap " coming strait from call me daves mouth http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/01/cameron-defends-blocking-steel-tariffs-as-javid-faces-workers-anger"
What the fuck has that got to do with EU laws??? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions   "
You obviously don't get it |
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"I am sure I heard on the news that the starting salary at Port Talbot was 30k, that's a good salary.
if I misheard, "
Considering what they do, compared to train drivers say who start at £35,000, or the receptionist in my organisation on a starting salary of £30,000: not really.
|
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1. Chinese stuff is not " crap"; it depends what you specify; good chinese stuff is excellent; the " cheap Chinese beds/ bicycles/ mopeds are made to be expendable; on the other hand , high quality goods are made in Chiba; eg Honda motorcycles ( which have acre putative for high quality ) are now largely made in China; engines, frames, the lot.
2. If you refuse to buy anything Chinese; then you can't ever buy; another new phone, computer, Television, car, lawnmower, washing machine etc etc. you would be hard pressed to find any goods nowadays , especially anything electronic, that is not made in, or does not have any components made in China: starter motors, alternators, electric motors; computer chips and circuits, etc. over half the components if those " high quality " so - called "German" Cars, Mercedes and BMW, are made in China.
3. The EU wanted to impose tariffs on imports if Chinese steel; it was the UK which boycotted this ; " shot in foot" seems appropriate ...... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Cameron has alternative motifs, not for the good of the country (UK) but for his own good once he resigns / steps down as PM
he wants to follow in Blair's footsteps making £millions and you can bet a dollar or a pound that all the actions he takes right now are for his own future intentions & greed |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"I am sure I heard on the news that the starting salary at Port Talbot was 30k, that's a good salary.
if I misheard,
Considering what they do, compared to train drivers say who start at £35,000, or the receptionist in my organisation on a starting salary of £30,000: not really.
"
starting salary for a train driver is £23k whilst your on training rising to £27k over the first three years as you learn more only companys where you " start " on £ 35 k are the freight companys who dont train drivers just poach from others so only " start " experianced drivers |
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Also a point of killing off your opponents in the the bad times ready for the later good times.
Pm wont stop China from dumping steel here because he needs them in other projects (cash) for hs2 hs3. Cross rail London. North south cross rail London.hinkley point to name a couple. |
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"Also a point of killing off your opponents in the the bad times ready for the later good times.
Pm wont stop China from dumping steel here because he needs them in other projects (cash) for hs2 hs3. Cross rail London. North south cross rail London.hinkley point to name a couple. "
Indeed!
Having allowed them to buy out our manufacturing industry he is now helping them to buy our infrastructure! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Also a point of killing off your opponents in the the bad times ready for the later good times.
Pm wont stop China from dumping steel here because he needs them in other projects (cash) for hs2 hs3. Cross rail London. North south cross rail London.hinkley point to name a couple.
Indeed!
Having allowed them to buy out our manufacturing industry he is now helping them to buy our infrastructure!"
If you don't like it then maybe labour should put forward an electable opposition. |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"Also a point of killing off your opponents in the the bad times ready for the later good times.
Pm wont stop China from dumping steel here because he needs them in other projects (cash) for hs2 hs3. Cross rail London. North south cross rail London.hinkley point to name a couple.
Indeed!
Having allowed them to buy out our manufacturing industry he is now helping them to buy our infrastructure!
If you don't like it then maybe labour should put forward an electable opposition. "
ah so its Labours fault laughable |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it "
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described."
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism"
and what kind of 'investment' would that be?
Any what would the returns be on that investment given we apparently can't compete in the open market? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism
and what kind of 'investment' would that be?
Any what would the returns be on that investment given we apparently can't compete in the open market?"
At the moment nothing. But what price would we be paying for steel in the future if the only producer was China? And how much more would your shiny new car etc cost |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"At the moment nothing. But what price would we be paying for steel in the future if the only producer was China? And how much more would your shiny new car etc cost"
It's not an investment then.
There should be investment - massive investment. But not in steel. Too late now though - it's going to be a very expensive sticking plaster and very likely still no investment in industries in which we can compete.
As for cars I'll stick with Japanese and German. They make good cars and have ready supplies of steel. |
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By *errygTV/TS
over a year ago
denton |
how about bob geldorf stepping in with steel aid, getting all the top acts together to raise money, even tour, gov do their bit by not taxing the money, was pink floyd offered 50 million to go to usa, afterall its the people of the uk who helped them on rd to stardom, imagine floyd, replacement key board rick wakeman, paul mcartney, ringo, queen, rolling stones,just a idea in jest |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"At the moment nothing. But what price would we be paying for steel in the future if the only producer was China? And how much more would your shiny new car etc cost
It's not an investment then.
There should be investment - massive investment. But not in steel. Too late now though - it's going to be a very expensive sticking plaster and very likely still no investment in industries in which we can compete.
As for cars I'll stick with Japanese and German. They make good cars and have ready supplies of steel."
No. You really don't get it. I give up |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"At the moment nothing. But what price would we be paying for steel in the future if the only producer was China? And how much more would your shiny new car etc cost
It's not an investment then.
There should be investment - massive investment. But not in steel. Too late now though - it's going to be a very expensive sticking plaster and very likely still no investment in industries in which we can compete.
As for cars I'll stick with Japanese and German. They make good cars and have ready supplies of steel.
No. You really don't get it. I give up"
What you mean is that because my opinion is different to yours, and that as yet you've failed to offer any actual counter argument... the easy way for a victory (in your mind) is to throw the 'you don't get it' line.
If I'm wrong and you have the solution I'm thinking there's a few thousand people who would be very grateful for you to pass your wisdom to Mr Cameron |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism"
Investments need to have an expected date of return... what's the payback on this business given that it loses £1m a day? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"At the moment nothing. But what price would we be paying for steel in the future if the only producer was China? And how much more would your shiny new car etc cost
It's not an investment then.
There should be investment - massive investment. But not in steel. Too late now though - it's going to be a very expensive sticking plaster and very likely still no investment in industries in which we can compete.
As for cars I'll stick with Japanese and German. They make good cars and have ready supplies of steel.
No. You really don't get it. I give up
What you mean is that because my opinion is different to yours, and that as yet you've failed to offer any actual counter argument... the easy way for a victory (in your mind) is to throw the 'you don't get it' line.
If I'm wrong and you have the solution I'm thinking there's a few thousand people who would be very grateful for you to pass your wisdom to Mr Cameron"
Ok. Where should this massive investment of which you speak of go and where will the money come from? And what are the industries in which we can compete if we have no steel industry? And where are these German and Japanese cars that you like so much made? Could it be Crewe, Birmingham, Sunderland and Derby by any chance? And why do Germany and Japan have ready supplies of steel do you think? Could it possibly be because the governments there do exactly what you are against us doing here? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
""World" rules on CO2 production sound great....can anyone give an example of a world rule on anything that has actually gone through...been acted on....worked...?
Event he Geneva Convention/rules on human rights are ignored by many countries....including China.
What they've outlined is a basic tax charge at source.
So the idea is to put "a cost" on each fossil fuel resource produced this would be paid direct by producers, ie oil companies, mining companies(think of it like breweries with beer tax, the strongest beers pay the most duty). So anyhow obviously the more a product users a fossil fuel the more of the tax it accumulates.
This tax starts at a low level and rises a set amount every year!, this is intended as an incentive to stop using a fossil fuel and to make capital seek to innovate away from it!.
The different thing in this tax is that, what they intend is to redistribute all the tax back to every person on an equitable basis meaning the heavy users pay in more but get the same back as the person who pays in less!.
Also with it being levied direct at source it would be very hard to avoid!.
.
.
The effect on something like Chinese steel produce would be that Chinese steel would be more expensive as it's being shipped by fossil fuel and is made using more fossil fuel than Western steel, in reality it equals out the cost of the cheap labour equation"
Who collects a "world tax"? Would that be a world government....? These type of ideas have been proposed ad nauseous for decades...they never work! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ok. Where should this massive investment of which you speak of go and where will the money come from? And what are the industries in which we can compete if we have no steel industry? And where are these German and Japanese cars that you like so much made? Could it be Crewe, Birmingham, Sunderland and Derby by any chance? And why do Germany and Japan have ready supplies of steel do you think? Could it possibly be because the governments there do exactly what you are against us doing here?"
Education
Arts
Science
Medicine
Technology
We did so well during the Industrial Revolution because we invested in developing new things - not because we propped up failing things.
Others can now do manufacturing in ways that we can't. We need to move on and make ourselves indispensable in other ways.
There is little to no prospect of this happening in the near future with the current political thinking, hence the need for a big expensive sticking plaster.
|
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
There is a simple fact here.
The Chinese are subsidising their steel selling/dumping it at below cost price. This is NOT capitalism...it isn't even communism for that matter.vtheir overall goal is to destroy other countries steel production and to give themselves a monopoly. Then they can charge what the hell they like.
Does anyone actually think the Chinese will give a flying fcuk about a so-called world tax on CO2 either? They ignore human rights and just about everything else...they ignore UN sanctions on N Korea etc.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism
Investments need to have an expected date of return... what's the payback on this business given that it loses £1m a day? "
Can you let me know when and how much I will get on gold if I buy some tomorrow as an investment please?
Can you let me know when I will get some return and how much after the investment I am making in my son's education please?
There are different ways to invest in something and different ways to gain |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"There is a simple fact here.
The Chinese are subsidising their steel selling/dumping it at below cost price. This is NOT capitalism...it isn't even communism for that matter.vtheir overall goal is to destroy other countries steel production and to give themselves a monopoly. Then they can charge what the hell they like.
Does anyone actually think the Chinese will give a flying fcuk about a so-called world tax on CO2 either? They ignore human rights and just about everything else...they ignore UN sanctions on N Korea etc...."
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism
Investments need to have an expected date of return... what's the payback on this business given that it loses £1m a day?
Can you let me know when and how much I will get on gold if I buy some tomorrow as an investment please?
Can you let me know when I will get some return and how much after the investment I am making in my son's education please?
There are different ways to invest in something and different ways to gain"
In case it wasn't clear the rate of return is a projection and yes it's very easy to do one for gold. Gold is a shite investment by the way...
Your last statement seems to indicate that you don't fundamentally understand the difference between investing and just spending money. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism
Investments need to have an expected date of return... what's the payback on this business given that it loses £1m a day?
Can you let me know when and how much I will get on gold if I buy some tomorrow as an investment please?
Can you let me know when I will get some return and how much after the investment I am making in my son's education please?
There are different ways to invest in something and different ways to gain
In case it wasn't clear the rate of return is a projection and yes it's very easy to do one for gold. Gold is a shite investment by the way...
Your last statement seems to indicate that you don't fundamentally understand the difference between investing and just spending money."
And your last statement seems to indicate you don't fully understand the meaning of the word investment |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism
Investments need to have an expected date of return... what's the payback on this business given that it loses £1m a day?
Can you let me know when and how much I will get on gold if I buy some tomorrow as an investment please?
Can you let me know when I will get some return and how much after the investment I am making in my son's education please?
There are different ways to invest in something and different ways to gain
In case it wasn't clear the rate of return is a projection and yes it's very easy to do one for gold. Gold is a shite investment by the way...
Your last statement seems to indicate that you don't fundamentally understand the difference between investing and just spending money.
And your last statement seems to indicate you don't fully understand the meaning of the word investment"
Why is that? Because you think they are the same thing!? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism
Investments need to have an expected date of return... what's the payback on this business given that it loses £1m a day?
Can you let me know when and how much I will get on gold if I buy some tomorrow as an investment please?
Can you let me know when I will get some return and how much after the investment I am making in my son's education please?
There are different ways to invest in something and different ways to gain
In case it wasn't clear the rate of return is a projection and yes it's very easy to do one for gold. Gold is a shite investment by the way...
Your last statement seems to indicate that you don't fundamentally understand the difference between investing and just spending money.
And your last statement seems to indicate you don't fully understand the meaning of the word investment
Why is that? Because you think they are the same thing!? "
No. You can invest money in something not for financial return but to gain an advantage. It doesn't even have to involve money though does it? You can invest time in something to improve your life or the lives of others etc etc.
Whth regard to the steel works it might seem like a bad investment now but who knows how much more we might have to pay for steel in the future without it? It's not like a toy factory or clothes factory or whatever. Maybe research the importance of it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism
Investments need to have an expected date of return... what's the payback on this business given that it loses £1m a day?
Can you let me know when and how much I will get on gold if I buy some tomorrow as an investment please?
Can you let me know when I will get some return and how much after the investment I am making in my son's education please?
There are different ways to invest in something and different ways to gain
In case it wasn't clear the rate of return is a projection and yes it's very easy to do one for gold. Gold is a shite investment by the way...
Your last statement seems to indicate that you don't fundamentally understand the difference between investing and just spending money.
And your last statement seems to indicate you don't fully understand the meaning of the word investment
Why is that? Because you think they are the same thing!?
No. You can invest money in something not for financial return but to gain an advantage. It doesn't even have to involve money though does it? You can invest time in something to improve your life or the lives of others etc etc.
Whth regard to the steel works it might seem like a bad investment now but who knows how much more we might have to pay for steel in the future without it? It's not like a toy factory or clothes factory or whatever. Maybe research the importance of it"
You can't call it an investment unless you can at least estimate a sensible rate of return. I'm not saying it's impossible to get a return, I'm just saying you can't call it an investment until someone has some credible figures.
If you think you can't put figures on all those other benefits then maybe you should read up on the subject, start Douglas Hubbards classic "how to measure anything" - the clue is in the title. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism
Investments need to have an expected date of return... what's the payback on this business given that it loses £1m a day?
Can you let me know when and how much I will get on gold if I buy some tomorrow as an investment please?
Can you let me know when I will get some return and how much after the investment I am making in my son's education please?
There are different ways to invest in something and different ways to gain
In case it wasn't clear the rate of return is a projection and yes it's very easy to do one for gold. Gold is a shite investment by the way...
Your last statement seems to indicate that you don't fundamentally understand the difference between investing and just spending money.
And your last statement seems to indicate you don't fully understand the meaning of the word investment
Why is that? Because you think they are the same thing!?
No. You can invest money in something not for financial return but to gain an advantage. It doesn't even have to involve money though does it? You can invest time in something to improve your life or the lives of others etc etc.
Whth regard to the steel works it might seem like a bad investment now but who knows how much more we might have to pay for steel in the future without it? It's not like a toy factory or clothes factory or whatever. Maybe research the importance of it
You can't call it an investment unless you can at least estimate a sensible rate of return. I'm not saying it's impossible to get a return, I'm just saying you can't call it an investment until someone has some credible figures.
If you think you can't put figures on all those other benefits then maybe you should read up on the subject, start Douglas Hubbards classic "how to measure anything" - the clue is in the title. "
As I said, you don't understand the meaning of the word investment |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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This is progress from 'you don't get it'
What would you say will be the returns on the investment? Because I'd argue the better investment would be in the things suggested earlier. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is progress from 'you don't get it'
What would you say will be the returns on the investment? Because I'd argue the better investment would be in the things suggested earlier."
And how do we produce those things /transport them etc etc without steel? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is progress from 'you don't get it'
What would you say will be the returns on the investment? Because I'd argue the better investment would be in the things suggested earlier.
And how do we produce those things /transport them etc etc without steel?"
Is this like saying how do we make steel without importing iron ore? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is progress from 'you don't get it'
What would you say will be the returns on the investment? Because I'd argue the better investment would be in the things suggested earlier.
And how do we produce those things /transport them etc etc without steel?
Is this like saying how do we make steel without importing iron ore?"
No |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You vote for capitalism and then some fucking communist state comes over and fucks up all the capitalism and then you want some socialist interventions
You obviously don't get it
Which bit? - cos having watched the news, it seems exactly as described.
Any intervention would be an investment for the future, nothing to do with socialism
Investments need to have an expected date of return... what's the payback on this business given that it loses £1m a day?
Can you let me know when and how much I will get on gold if I buy some tomorrow as an investment please?
Can you let me know when I will get some return and how much after the investment I am making in my son's education please?
There are different ways to invest in something and different ways to gain
In case it wasn't clear the rate of return is a projection and yes it's very easy to do one for gold. Gold is a shite investment by the way...
Your last statement seems to indicate that you don't fundamentally understand the difference between investing and just spending money.
And your last statement seems to indicate you don't fully understand the meaning of the word investment
Why is that? Because you think they are the same thing!?
No. You can invest money in something not for financial return but to gain an advantage. It doesn't even have to involve money though does it? You can invest time in something to improve your life or the lives of others etc etc.
Whth regard to the steel works it might seem like a bad investment now but who knows how much more we might have to pay for steel in the future without it? It's not like a toy factory or clothes factory or whatever. Maybe research the importance of it
You can't call it an investment unless you can at least estimate a sensible rate of return. I'm not saying it's impossible to get a return, I'm just saying you can't call it an investment until someone has some credible figures.
If you think you can't put figures on all those other benefits then maybe you should read up on the subject, start Douglas Hubbards classic "how to measure anything" - the clue is in the title.
As I said, you don't understand the meaning of the word investment"
Put it this way, we agree that one of us doesn't understand the meaning of that term... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is progress from 'you don't get it'
What would you say will be the returns on the investment? Because I'd argue the better investment would be in the things suggested earlier.
And how do we produce those things /transport them etc etc without steel?
Is this like saying how do we make steel without importing iron ore?
No"
I see that I need to spell it out...
We are already reliant on imports - this is a globalised market.
The scenario you suggest whereby we'd need to produce steel without any importing would mean we were essentially fucked anyway in a globalised market.
Besides which you still haven't offered any ideas as to the return on investment.. |
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The steel industry is not an investment it is a key strategic industry there is a difference. When the chinese have finished dumping their subsidised loss making steel on us bankrolled by the chinese state we will have no steel industry left.
The only way forward at the moment will be to stick to the value added sections of the business and the high tech steels.
Ca moron would not bail out the banks he said so at the time in 2008 he will not bail out the steel industry
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is progress from 'you don't get it'
What would you say will be the returns on the investment? Because I'd argue the better investment would be in the things suggested earlier.
And how do we produce those things /transport them etc etc without steel?
Is this like saying how do we make steel without importing iron ore?
No
I see that I need to spell it out...
We are already reliant on imports - this is a globalised market.
The scenario you suggest whereby we'd need to produce steel without any importing would mean we were essentially fucked anyway in a globalised market.
Besides which you still haven't offered any ideas as to the return on investment.."
And you have?
Anyway, what do I know. Maybe you should direct your questions towards Marc and Nathaniel Meyohas of investment firm Greybull or Sanjeev Gupta of Liberty. Or maybe you know better than they do |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Besides which you still haven't offered any ideas as to the return on investment..
And you have?"
I literally spelled them out earlier in the discussion - can't really miss it!
"Anyway, what do I know."
Finally!!
As for the potential investors, we'll just have to wait and see... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I can't understand how Chinese steel is so much cheaper...
It weighs a massive amount and got to travel half way round the world, surely that's an extra cost that we don't have to pay if it's made here??
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can't understand how Chinese steel is so much cheaper...
It weighs a massive amount and got to travel half way round the world, surely that's an extra cost that we don't have to pay if it's made here??
"
Hence why it's called 'dumping'. Their economy isn't doing as well as planned so they have a lot of spare steel they don't need. They are flogging it below cost just to get something for it, since it would otherwise be sat around not doing much. It's illegal to dump but for whatever reason the WTO and or EU are doing fuck all about that fact. Tariffs don't solve the underlying issue, companies are getting away with illegal trade practices... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Besides which you still haven't offered any ideas as to the return on investment..
And you have?
I literally spelled them out earlier in the discussion - can't really miss it!
Anyway, what do I know.
Finally!!
As for the potential investors, we'll just have to wait and see..."
Looked again and it isn't there.
You have not offered any ideas as the return on investment in
Education
Art
Science
Medicine
Technology
Have you?
And why are there potential investors do you think. if it is an outdated industry and not worth investing in?
Do you know more than these people? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What is the return on investment on education?!!???!!!!!
I see what I'm dealing with now
and I give up  "
Because you can't put a figure on it? Of course you can't any more than I can put a figure on returns on investment in the steel industry, yet you asked me to.
And if you'd read the thread fully or properly you would have noticed I said there were other ways to invest, tn improve your life and the lives of others. I was talking about time and education
Maybe you should invest a little more in yours |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because you can't put a figure on it? Of course you can't any more than I can put a figure on returns on investment in the steel industry, yet you asked me to.
And if you'd read the thread fully or properly you would have noticed I said there were other ways to invest, tn improve your life and the lives of others. I was talking about time and education
Maybe you should invest a little more in yours "
I reckon I've invested more than enough time on this thanks, and I certainly don't have the time to try and educate you.
You CAN put a figure on those things - a few minutes on google will give you industry figures for education, gaming and software, the other creative industries, the various industries of medicine and science etc. etc.
They are all expanding industries that can be considered as sensible investments. All of them industries we'd be sensible to advise our children to work towards, particularly at a time when machines and technology are making much manual work redundant.
Who would advise their child to aim for a career in a UK steel plant? This is why it's not a good investment. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because you can't put a figure on it? Of course you can't any more than I can put a figure on returns on investment in the steel industry, yet you asked me to.
And if you'd read the thread fully or properly you would have noticed I said there were other ways to invest, tn improve your life and the lives of others. I was talking about time and education
Maybe you should invest a little more in yours
I reckon I've invested more than enough time on this thanks, and I certainly don't have the time to try and educate you.
You CAN put a figure on those things - a few minutes on google will give you industry figures for education, gaming and software, the other creative industries, the various industries of medicine and science etc. etc.
They are all expanding industries that can be considered as sensible investments. All of them industries we'd be sensible to advise our children to work towards, particularly at a time when machines and technology are making much manual work redundant.
Who would advise their child to aim for a career in a UK steel plant? This is why it's not a good investment."
No no, please leave everything vague and ill-defined, that way we can say anything, literally anything, and people won't be able to disagree. It's much better to spend money that way, don't estimate anything, but spend randomly and see what happens I say. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because you can't put a figure on it? Of course you can't any more than I can put a figure on returns on investment in the steel industry, yet you asked me to.
And if you'd read the thread fully or properly you would have noticed I said there were other ways to invest, tn improve your life and the lives of others. I was talking about time and education
Maybe you should invest a little more in yours
I reckon I've invested more than enough time on this thanks, and I certainly don't have the time to try and educate you.
You CAN put a figure on those things - a few minutes on google will give you industry figures for education, gaming and software, the other creative industries, the various industries of medicine and science etc. etc.
They are all expanding industries that can be considered as sensible investments. All of them industries we'd be sensible to advise our children to work towards, particularly at a time when machines and technology are making much manual work redundant.
Who would advise their child to aim for a career in a UK steel plant? This is why it's not a good investment."
Pmsl. Who makes the machines and what are they made from?
And if you think there is no technology involved in the future of steel production then you really don't understand it. It is the way forward
And by the way, due to the skills shortage in engineering it could be a good idea to advise our children to be something to work towards |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because you can't put a figure on it? Of course you can't any more than I can put a figure on returns on investment in the steel industry, yet you asked me to.
And if you'd read the thread fully or properly you would have noticed I said there were other ways to invest, tn improve your life and the lives of others. I was talking about time and education
Maybe you should invest a little more in yours
I reckon I've invested more than enough time on this thanks, and I certainly don't have the time to try and educate you.
You CAN put a figure on those things - a few minutes on google will give you industry figures for education, gaming and software, the other creative industries, the various industries of medicine and science etc. etc.
They are all expanding industries that can be considered as sensible investments. All of them industries we'd be sensible to advise our children to work towards, particularly at a time when machines and technology are making much manual work redundant.
Who would advise their child to aim for a career in a UK steel plant? This is why it's not a good investment.
No no, please leave everything vague and ill-defined, that way we can say anything, literally anything, and people won't be able to disagree. It's much better to spend money that way, don't estimate anything, but spend randomly and see what happens I say. "
As Greybull and Liberty do? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can't understand how Chinese steel is so much cheaper...
It weighs a massive amount and got to travel half way round the world, surely that's an extra cost that we don't have to pay if it's made here??
"
Something I do know about at last ! The cost of them shipping their steel here works out at less than 10p a kilo from factory to their UK customers door . They have poor workplace regulations and pay staff ridiculously low ( compared to the UK) salaries . |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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So, Sanjeev Gupta the head of Liberty House says he would like to not just maintain the steel industry in the UK but EXPAND it if he takes over the Tata plants. Now would anyone here care to educate him or advise him as to why this would be a bad investment/idea? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I do see what he is getting at, we need to produce high grade steel and that means re shaping the industry and rebuilding some parts of the plant.
There will be job losses no matter who buys into it make no mistake as they cannot left to rescue port talbot as it is.
There will be a lot of moaning from the steel workers who will not like this but it will happen no matter what or the works will close down.
They will Blaime the new management for this as they seem to think that someone is going to just pour money into the idustry without making a profit LoL.
It's a business not a charity and cannot be run like one sorry to say.
If it was a national company then it could be run at cost becaus there would not be shareholders all wanting dividends on investments but as we have been told it's not on the table to make it so.
I feel sorry for the workers but jobs losses will be a reality to make it profitable again.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do see what he is getting at, we need to produce high grade steel and that means re shaping the industry and rebuilding some parts of the plant.
There will be job losses no matter who buys into it make no mistake as they cannot left to rescue port talbot as it is.
There will be a lot of moaning from the steel workers who will not like this but it will happen no matter what or the works will close down.
They will Blaime the new management for this as they seem to think that someone is going to just pour money into the idustry without making a profit LoL.
It's a business not a charity and cannot be run like one sorry to say.
If it was a national company then it could be run at cost becaus there would not be shareholders all wanting dividends on investments but as we have been told it's not on the table to make it so.
I feel sorry for the workers but jobs losses will be a reality to make it profitable again.
"
There may be job losses or temporary lay offs while things are restructured, even though he says he hopes there won't be, who knows. But for people who have said that steel is a dying industry on this thread, they are wrong. All that is needed is a level playing field with the rest of Europe with regard to energy prices. Hopefully this is something the government can help with, it would be a benefit to them in the long run after all |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do see what he is getting at, we need to produce high grade steel and that means re shaping the industry and rebuilding some parts of the plant.
There will be job losses no matter who buys into it make no mistake as they cannot left to rescue port talbot as it is.
There will be a lot of moaning from the steel workers who will not like this but it will happen no matter what or the works will close down.
They will Blaime the new management for this as they seem to think that someone is going to just pour money into the idustry without making a profit LoL.
It's a business not a charity and cannot be run like one sorry to say.
If it was a national company then it could be run at cost becaus there would not be shareholders all wanting dividends on investments but as we have been told it's not on the table to make it so.
I feel sorry for the workers but jobs losses will be a reality to make it profitable again.
There may be job losses or temporary lay offs while things are restructured, even though he says he hopes there won't be, who knows. But for people who have said that steel is a dying industry on this thread, they are wrong. All that is needed is a level playing field with the rest of Europe with regard to energy prices. Hopefully this is something the government can help with, it would be a benefit to them in the long run after all"
Energy prices are about 1% of the manufacturing cost. Their productivity is lower than Europe and mini-mills are inherently more efficient than integrated mills. Level those factors and then you have a viable business... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do see what he is getting at, we need to produce high grade steel and that means re shaping the industry and rebuilding some parts of the plant.
There will be job losses no matter who buys into it make no mistake as they cannot left to rescue port talbot as it is.
There will be a lot of moaning from the steel workers who will not like this but it will happen no matter what or the works will close down.
They will Blaime the new management for this as they seem to think that someone is going to just pour money into the idustry without making a profit LoL.
It's a business not a charity and cannot be run like one sorry to say.
If it was a national company then it could be run at cost becaus there would not be shareholders all wanting dividends on investments but as we have been told it's not on the table to make it so.
I feel sorry for the workers but jobs losses will be a reality to make it profitable again.
There may be job losses or temporary lay offs while things are restructured, even though he says he hopes there won't be, who knows. But for people who have said that steel is a dying industry on this thread, they are wrong. All that is needed is a level playing field with the rest of Europe with regard to energy prices. Hopefully this is something the government can help with, it would be a benefit to them in the long run after all
Energy prices are about 1% of the manufacturing cost. Their productivity is lower than Europe and mini-mills are inherently more efficient than integrated mills. Level those factors and then you have a viable business... "
And something worth investing in then? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do see what he is getting at, we need to produce high grade steel and that means re shaping the industry and rebuilding some parts of the plant.
There will be job losses no matter who buys into it make no mistake as they cannot left to rescue port talbot as it is.
There will be a lot of moaning from the steel workers who will not like this but it will happen no matter what or the works will close down.
They will Blaime the new management for this as they seem to think that someone is going to just pour money into the idustry without making a profit LoL.
It's a business not a charity and cannot be run like one sorry to say.
If it was a national company then it could be run at cost becaus there would not be shareholders all wanting dividends on investments but as we have been told it's not on the table to make it so.
I feel sorry for the workers but jobs losses will be a reality to make it profitable again.
There may be job losses or temporary lay offs while things are restructured, even though he says he hopes there won't be, who knows. But for people who have said that steel is a dying industry on this thread, they are wrong. All that is needed is a level playing field with the rest of Europe with regard to energy prices. Hopefully this is something the government can help with, it would be a benefit to them in the long run after all
Energy prices are about 1% of the manufacturing cost. Their productivity is lower than Europe and mini-mills are inherently more efficient than integrated mills. Level those factors and then you have a viable business...
And something worth investing in then? "
Good luck to the investor, I hope they make it work. There's big enough demand from things like our defence industry that if the above issues were sorted and the EU / WTO actually enforced their own rules on dumping that it could be made viable. However those are problems that I personally wouldn't touch with a 60 ft pole...
I hope they pull it off though |
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