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Religion in 2016
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Bit deep for me pal its friday night im d*unk and just want to chat to people on here about stuff, but hey ho carry on"
See you in another thread about womens knickers |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Bit deep for me pal its friday night im d*unk and just want to chat to people on here about stuff, but hey ho carry on"
To be honest mate im just following on a conversation from the pub  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Bit deep for me pal its friday night im d*unk and just want to chat to people on here about stuff, but hey ho carry on
To be honest mate im just following on a conversation from the pub "
No probs pal  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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No, because many people believe in it, and if they didn't believe in religion they would believe in something else, which would end in the same result because of the differences in what is believed. |
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"Would the world be a better place without it?"
God knows
Mr ddc
(Ps. Many people find their faith gives them support, comfort and succour. Regardless of my own beliefs, why would I want to take that away from them?) |
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"Would the world be a better place without it?"
No, because religion is but one issue that divides. Do you think if religion was abolished all the races/tribes/castes/nationalities/classes etc would sit around the camp fire, holding hands singing kumbaya?!!
Yeah...right!!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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was never religious until I lost someone very close to me
now; I guess I seek comfort in it and pray we will meet again on the other side, im not into kumbaya, or holding hands round a camp fire, just a guy into bikes, skydiving and racing, but I wont re-marry, and I do hope we will eventually meet up again |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I believe there's something beyond our understanding and religion is all different interpretations of this. This is why I personally choose to stay away from all human manufactured beliefs and just wait for the day the real answer comes, when I croak it!  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I have my beliefs, they are mine, and I stand by them, but what kind if fool would I be to want to take the only bit if comfort away from someone in desperate times, I believe that religion is the most effective placebo effect that has ever been, and I've known people really turn their lives around from drugs and alcohol, and violence, just on the faith they have in their god, and that can't be a bad thing.
Religion thrives through persecution, so a blanket ban on all faiths, would make them stronger. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yes.The world would always have been better place without it. It's the most ridiculous concept mankind has ever come up with yet for some reason it's always been there, one form or another, since the earliest civilisations. It's like we evolved and thought 'shit, look at the sun. Let's bow before it before it gets angry' and so forth. In the 21st century, we should know better. We question things like 'how can god let a child die with so much suffering?' And yet that's seen as a test of faith by the nàive whos faith will often strengthen towards a judgemental sky fairy. I hate the way creationists deny the idea of evolution to support the idea that a man was created from dust and his Mrs from a rib of said man. There is nothing support any religious faith. |
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"Would the world be a better place without it?"
. The World would probably be a worse place without religion. Truely religious people are peacefully and religion sets a good example of how to behave .
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes.The world would always have been better place without it. It's the most ridiculous concept mankind has ever come up with yet for some reason it's always been there, one form or another, since the earliest civilisations. It's like we evolved and thought 'shit, look at the sun. Let's bow before it before it gets angry' and so forth. In the 21st century, we should know better. We question things like 'how can god let a child die with so much suffering?' And yet that's seen as a test of faith by the nàive whos faith will often strengthen towards a judgemental sky fairy. I hate the way creationists deny the idea of evolution to support the idea that a man was created from dust and his Mrs from a rib of said man. There is nothing support any religious faith. "
But we are made from dust, stardust |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Would the world be a better place without it?. The World would probably be a worse place without religion. Truely religious people are peacefully and religion sets a good example of how to behave . "
There are also non religious people in the world that are also "peacefully" minded and set good examples also |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There are also non religious people in the world that are also "peacefully" minded and set good examples also "
Think I've just broken the world record with the most use of the word "also" in a single short post!  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Religion is not a problem.
Just show me one thing that religion caused. "
almost every war ever, the current situation with Isis beheading, torturing & just plain killing anyone who isn't part of they're religion |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes.The world would always have been better place without it. It's the most ridiculous concept mankind has ever come up with yet for some reason it's always been there, one form or another, since the earliest civilisations. It's like we evolved and thought 'shit, look at the sun. Let's bow before it before it gets angry' and so forth. In the 21st century, we should know better. We question things like 'how can god let a child die with so much suffering?' And yet that's seen as a test of faith by the nàive whos faith will often strengthen towards a judgemental sky fairy. I hate the way creationists deny the idea of evolution to support the idea that a man was created from dust and his Mrs from a rib of said man. There is nothing support any religious faith. "
Then you look back to Roman History, the crucifixion? the same god that let his son die lets a child die, it could drive you insane
you don't know if there is? or if there isn't; I just hope in a way it is all true as I have my soul mate, my wife who I want to meet again
But again religion can be a very dangerous tool, have can Western armies compete with suicide bombers who truly believe they are going to a better place? |
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"Religion is not a problem.
Just show me one thing that religion caused. almost every war ever, the current situation with Isis beheading, torturing & just plain killing anyone who isn't part of they're religion "
I know that happens.
Now tell me how RELIGION caused that ?
It's the people not the religion.
If I.S. couldn't use their current excuses for killing , they would simply use another.
They are killers and controllers. They are not religious.
It's their absence of religious belief and understanding that fuels them. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes.The world would always have been better place without it. It's the most ridiculous concept mankind has ever come up with yet for some reason it's always been there, one form or another, since the earliest civilisations. It's like we evolved and thought 'shit, look at the sun. Let's bow before it before it gets angry' and so forth. In the 21st century, we should know better. We question things like 'how can god let a child die with so much suffering?' And yet that's seen as a test of faith by the nàive whos faith will often strengthen towards a judgemental sky fairy. I hate the way creationists deny the idea of evolution to support the idea that a man was created from dust and his Mrs from a rib of said man. There is nothing support any religious faith. "
I totally see your point, and I agree to a certain degree, but are we really in any sort if position to tell other people what is real and what is nonsense?
Could you tell the family of someone who has just died that "hey that's their lot now, nothing after this for them"?
Could you look into the eyes of a dying man, and tell him that in a few hours there will be nothing?
I'm not taking a shot at you, but don't you think that in the same way creationists shouldn't try to force us to believe in a deity, that evolutionists, shouldn't make Darwin Jesus, and preach the gospel of the ape (that would be an awesome title for a book)
Like I said, I'm not having a go, its just we are in danger of creating darwinist zealots (great name for a band)  |
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Do you mean the medieval crusades when WE killed Muslims to take the Holy Land from them from 12 - 1400's ?
We murdered loads of them. Still political though.
The church and state have always acted together.
I get my most cynical laughs from those that think the church is peaceful.
It WAS the law back then. It ruled all. |
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"Maybe we should just let the jedi and the sith sort it out as they both recognised now "
I suppose it would be more fun than all this Hail Mary and Allah u Akbar shit.
Now where did I put my light sabre? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes.The world would always have been better place without it. It's the most ridiculous concept mankind has ever come up with yet for some reason it's always been there, one form or another, since the earliest civilisations. It's like we evolved and thought 'shit, look at the sun. Let's bow before it before it gets angry' and so forth. In the 21st century, we should know better. We question things like 'how can god let a child die with so much suffering?' And yet that's seen as a test of faith by the nàive whos faith will often strengthen towards a judgemental sky fairy. I hate the way creationists deny the idea of evolution to support the idea that a man was created from dust and his Mrs from a rib of said man. There is nothing support any religious faith.
I totally see your point, and I agree to a certain degree, but are we really in any sort if position to tell other people what is real and what is nonsense?
Could you tell the family of someone who has just died that "hey that's their lot now, nothing after this for them"?
Could you look into the eyes of a dying man, and tell him that in a few hours there will be nothing?
I'm not taking a shot at you, but don't you think that in the same way creationists shouldn't try to force us to believe in a deity, that evolutionists, shouldn't make Darwin Jesus, and preach the gospel of the ape (that would be an awesome title for a book)
Like I said, I'm not having a go, its just we are in danger of creating darwinist zealots (great name for a band) "
Yeah, good name for a band. And I tell people all time that their belief systems are BS, usually whilst having to defend my own Atheism. I've screamed in the face of priests to stop leading people down a dead end path. I found my self holding the hand of a priest when he gave my nan her her last rites and felt so awkwardly out of place like I was the only one in the room who understood that she was just dying. I wanted to be there for her for the good times I'd shared with her and felt it was marred by the presence of religion. The outcome was the same and she hasn't gone to a better place but (she would have drank bar dry by now if she had), her suffering had stopped and that's all should mattered that day. |
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By *ty31Man
over a year ago
NW London |
No. It's like saying that the world would be a better place if everyone was heterosexual and straight Or that everyone was One skin colour. Because in that instance hate crimes wouldn't exist.
Faith is deeper than skin colour and sexuality and I couldn't change or give up my faith in the same way that another couldn't be expected to change their Skin or orientation. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do you mean the medieval crusades when WE killed Muslims to take the Holy Land from them from 12 - 1400's ?
We murdered loads of them. Still political though.
The church and state have always acted together.
I get my most cynical laughs from those that think the church is peaceful.
It WAS the law back then. It ruled all. "
The crusades were defensive. They were murdering, raping and all that bad stuff across Europe trying to expand their empire. We stopped them |
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"Do you mean the medieval crusades when WE killed Muslims to take the Holy Land from them from 12 - 1400's ?
We murdered loads of them. Still political though.
The church and state have always acted together.
I get my most cynical laughs from those that think the church is peaceful.
It WAS the law back then. It ruled all. The crusades were defensive. They were murdering, raping and all that bad stuff across Europe trying to expand their empire. We stopped them "
There is some serious historical ignorance in these posts :/ |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do you mean the medieval crusades when WE killed Muslims to take the Holy Land from them from 12 - 1400's ?
We murdered loads of them. Still political though.
The church and state have always acted together.
I get my most cynical laughs from those that think the church is peaceful.
It WAS the law back then. It ruled all. The crusades were defensive. They were murdering, raping and all that bad stuff across Europe trying to expand their empire. We stopped them
There is some serious historical ignorance in these posts :/"
Don't worry I'm educating them |
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"Do you mean the medieval crusades when WE killed Muslims to take the Holy Land from them from 12 - 1400's ?
We murdered loads of them. Still political though.
The church and state have always acted together.
I get my most cynical laughs from those that think the church is peaceful.
It WAS the law back then. It ruled all. The crusades were defensive. They were murdering, raping and all that bad stuff across Europe trying to expand their empire. We stopped them
There is some serious historical ignorance in these posts :/"
I could, and have, written essays on the topic but I fear I would just bore you.
A few points tho'...
1/ the 1st Crusade was in 1096. The 9th (and traditionally final) Crusade was in 1271/72, although this doesn't take in to account the Livonian Wars, Hussite Wars &c &c...
2/ These wars were not defensive
3/ Church & State have not always acted together
4/ 'Europe' did not have an 'empire'
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Do you mean the medieval crusades when WE killed Muslims to take the Holy Land from them from 12 - 1400's ?
We murdered loads of them. Still political though.
The church and state have always acted together.
I get my most cynical laughs from those that think the church is peaceful.
It WAS the law back then. It ruled all. The crusades were defensive. They were murdering, raping and all that bad stuff across Europe trying to expand their empire. We stopped them
There is some serious historical ignorance in these posts :/
I could, and have, written essays on the topic but I fear I would just bore you.
A few points tho'...
1/ the 1st Crusade was in 1096. The 9th (and traditionally final) Crusade was in 1271/72, although this doesn't take in to account the Livonian Wars, Hussite Wars &c &c...
2/ These wars were not defensive
3/ Church & State have not always acted together
4/ 'Europe' did not have an 'empire'
"
No, it was the Muslims invading Europe trying to expand doing all that bad shit. When did I say Europe had an empire lmao |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I'm not taking a shot at you, but don't you think that in the same way creationists shouldn't try to force us to believe in a deity, that evolutionists, shouldn't make Darwin Jesus, and preach the gospel of the ape (that would be an awesome title for a book)
Like I said, I'm not having a go, its just we are in danger of creating darwinist zealots (great name for a band) "
.
I don't wish to take a shot at you here but.
Nobody made Darwin Jesus, nobody "preachers" evolutionist theory.
We educate children with the knowledge we've acquired through critical and rational thinking.
It's important we make distinctions between someone's "blind faith" and a set of scientific factual theorys.
The church said the earth was the centre of the universe, created by God in 6 days!... Do not look any further, this is all you need to know!... Thankfully people did and we found out, it's just not true!.
The church said the world is 5000 years old and man was created by God and woman from his rib and we were all born in sin... Do not look any further, this is all you need to know!!.. Thankfully we did and we now teach children the truth and that it is, we've evolved like all life on earth over billions of years because the world is 5 billon years old!.
.
.
Now I have no problem with people having blind faith in anything, but that should never be taught as anything but what it is! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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No, it wouldn't.
Wars that people claim are about religion are always really about power and resources. Every time. People would find another way to subjugate and oppress other people even if no one had ever thought of the concept of a god or gods.
To think otherwise is the ultimate in naivety. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If you had a remote island with 20,000 people living on it, completely disconnected from the outside world and you dropped off the Qur'an and the hadith's and said to them this is all you need to know, don't enquire any further just live your lives by the principles in these books!.
.
.
If you returned in a few hundred years, you could hardly be shocked if they weren't all living like isis!.
.
.
.
Now if you'd dropped off the Tripitaka or told them to live by the Jainist principles and you returned to find them living like isis... Then you could hold your hands up and say bloody humans |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No, it wouldn't.
Wars that people claim are about religion are always really about power and resources. Every time. People would find another way to subjugate and oppress other people even if no one had ever thought of the concept of a god or gods.
To think otherwise is the ultimate in naivety. "
.
The "war" might be about resources but the "belief structure" used is religious in context, you can buy mercenaries but you can't buy suicide bombers, this notion of a noble death is religious in its context!.
Blind belief is a very powerful structure in humans and ultimately it's used for bad reasons by others |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No, it wouldn't.
Wars that people claim are about religion are always really about power and resources. Every time. People would find another way to subjugate and oppress other people even if no one had ever thought of the concept of a god or gods.
To think otherwise is the ultimate in naivety. .
The "war" might be about resources but the "belief structure" used is religious in context, you can buy mercenaries but you can't buy suicide bombers, this notion of a noble death is religious in its context!.
Blind belief is a very powerful structure in humans and ultimately it's used for bad reasons by others"
Where do, for example, kamikaze pilots, fit into your version of events? People of all faiths and none can be convinced to kill themselves in the pursuit of killing others. And the reasons for that are about human nature not anything inherently bad in religion. Reverence of human leaders can be (and has been, throughout history) equally as dangerous as blind faith in divine ones. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No, it wouldn't.
Wars that people claim are about religion are always really about power and resources. Every time. People would find another way to subjugate and oppress other people even if no one had ever thought of the concept of a god or gods.
To think otherwise is the ultimate in naivety. .
The "war" might be about resources but the "belief structure" used is religious in context, you can buy mercenaries but you can't buy suicide bombers, this notion of a noble death is religious in its context!.
Blind belief is a very powerful structure in humans and ultimately it's used for bad reasons by others
Where do, for example, kamikaze pilots, fit into your version of events? People of all faiths and none can be convinced to kill themselves in the pursuit of killing others. And the reasons for that are about human nature not anything inherently bad in religion. Reverence of human leaders can be (and has been, throughout history) equally as dangerous as blind faith in divine ones. "
.
Blind faith is just that, it can manifest itself in many forms, from political leaders, military leaders or Gods, it's very hard to get a "good" person to do bad things without some form of belief structure!.
Bring "religious" won't start a war but a "religion" certainly will |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No, it wouldn't.
Wars that people claim are about religion are always really about power and resources. Every time. People would find another way to subjugate and oppress other people even if no one had ever thought of the concept of a god or gods.
To think otherwise is the ultimate in naivety. .
The "war" might be about resources but the "belief structure" used is religious in context, you can buy mercenaries but you can't buy suicide bombers, this notion of a noble death is religious in its context!.
Blind belief is a very powerful structure in humans and ultimately it's used for bad reasons by others
Where do, for example, kamikaze pilots, fit into your version of events? People of all faiths and none can be convinced to kill themselves in the pursuit of killing others. And the reasons for that are about human nature not anything inherently bad in religion. Reverence of human leaders can be (and has been, throughout history) equally as dangerous as blind faith in divine ones. .
Blind faith is just that, it can manifest itself in many forms, from political leaders, military leaders or Gods, it's very hard to get a "good" person to do bad things without some form of belief structure!.
Bring "religious" won't start a war but a "religion" certainly will"
So what makes you think that it religion didn't exist and had never existed, that the urges of those who want to fight and kill wouldn't just manifest themself in faith in political or military leaders instead? And the world would be no better at all. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Kamikaze pilots got their beliefs from a form of Buddhist/Shintoism that spread across imperial Japan!... But the cause was a lack of fuel, they only had enough for one way attacks |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Kamikaze pilots got their beliefs from a form of Buddhist/Shintoism that spread across imperial Japan!... But the cause was a lack of fuel, they only had enough for one way attacks"
But they were fighting for imperial Japan. That was ultimately their motivation. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No, it wouldn't.
Wars that people claim are about religion are always really about power and resources. Every time. People would find another way to subjugate and oppress other people even if no one had ever thought of the concept of a god or gods.
To think otherwise is the ultimate in naivety. .
The "war" might be about resources but the "belief structure" used is religious in context, you can buy mercenaries but you can't buy suicide bombers, this notion of a noble death is religious in its context!.
Blind belief is a very powerful structure in humans and ultimately it's used for bad reasons by others
Where do, for example, kamikaze pilots, fit into your version of events? People of all faiths and none can be convinced to kill themselves in the pursuit of killing others. And the reasons for that are about human nature not anything inherently bad in religion. Reverence of human leaders can be (and has been, throughout history) equally as dangerous as blind faith in divine ones. .
Blind faith is just that, it can manifest itself in many forms, from political leaders, military leaders or Gods, it's very hard to get a "good" person to do bad things without some form of belief structure!.
Bring "religious" won't start a war but a "religion" certainly will
So what makes you think that it religion didn't exist and had never existed, that the urges of those who want to fight and kill wouldn't just manifest themself in faith in political or military leaders instead? And the world would be no better at all. "
.
I couldn't guarantee it would as I posted earlier saying that!.
Of course having no blind faith in anything would encourage learning, so we might learn our way out of warring. Instead of continuously perpetuating it from the same "faith" in something better |
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"Do you mean the medieval crusades when WE killed Muslims to take the Holy Land from them from 12 - 1400's ?
We murdered loads of them. Still political though.
The church and state have always acted together.
I get my most cynical laughs from those that think the church is peaceful.
It WAS the law back then. It ruled all. The crusades were defensive. They were murdering, raping and all that bad stuff across Europe trying to expand their empire. We stopped them
There is some serious historical ignorance in these posts :/
I could, and have, written essays on the topic but I fear I would just bore you.
A few points tho'...
1/ the 1st Crusade was in 1096. The 9th (and traditionally final) Crusade was in 1271/72, although this doesn't take in to account the Livonian Wars, Hussite Wars &c &c...
2/ These wars were not defensive
3/ Church & State have not always acted together
4/ 'Europe' did not have an 'empire'
No, it was the Muslims invading Europe trying to expand doing all that bad shit. When did I say Europe had an empire lmao "
Urgh.
This is tedious... Ok I misread your original post... but the Muslim world was not a unified 'empire' either.
The Ummayyads of North Africa conquered most of Spain in the 8th cent. but were decisively beaten at Tours in 732.
The Crusades have more to do with the harnessing of murderous forces within European 'chivalry' to direct them externally.
It was not defensive.
Not until you have the Ottomans in the 16th century laying siege to Vienna. |
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"Religion is not a problem.
Just show me one thing that religion caused. almost every war ever, the current situation with Isis beheading, torturing & just plain killing anyone who isn't part of they're religion
I know that happens.
Now tell me how RELIGION caused that ?
It's the people not the religion.
If I.S. couldn't use their current excuses for killing , they would simply use another.
They are killers and controllers. They are not religious.
It's their absence of religious belief and understanding that fuels them. "
Words of wisdom from Granny
Personally I can see beyond media headlines and consider the insidious capitalists of the world at root of all the war in the world. They are just clever enough to use proxies (race/religion) to hide behind as they pursue their own interests. And they are largely successful at turning people against one another despite the fact the majority of us actually have more in common with one another than not. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Kamikaze pilots got their beliefs from a form of Buddhist/Shintoism that spread across imperial Japan!... But the cause was a lack of fuel, they only had enough for one way attacks
But they were fighting for imperial Japan. That was ultimately their motivation. "
.
Yes that was my point to your original post, you get the war from imperial Japan which had a long history of isolation broken by commerce but you don't get the kamikaze without a religious belief structure.
There's no denying humans don't have the ability to do awful stuff, you just propergate it easier with a religion |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Kamikaze pilots got their beliefs from a form of Buddhist/Shintoism that spread across imperial Japan!... But the cause was a lack of fuel, they only had enough for one way attacks
But they were fighting for imperial Japan. That was ultimately their motivation. .
Yes that was my point to your original post, you get the war from imperial Japan which had a long history of isolation broken by commerce but you don't get the kamikaze without a religious belief structure.
There's no denying humans don't have the ability to do awful stuff, you just propergate it easier with a religion"
And my point in my original post is that I completely disagree - it's just as easy to get people to do awful stuff for reasons of politics, money and power as it is with the existence of religion. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Religion is not a problem.
Just show me one thing that religion caused. almost every war ever, the current situation with Isis beheading, torturing & just plain killing anyone who isn't part of they're religion
I know that happens.
Now tell me how RELIGION caused that ?
It's the people not the religion.
If I.S. couldn't use their current excuses for killing , they would simply use another.
They are killers and controllers. They are not religious.
It's their absence of religious belief and understanding that fuels them.
Words of wisdom from Granny
Personally I can see beyond media headlines and consider the insidious capitalists of the world at root of all the war in the world. They are just clever enough to use proxies (race/religion) to hide behind as they pursue their own interests. And they are largely successful at turning people against one another despite the fact the majority of us actually have more in common with one another than not. "
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Your absolutely right capitalism does and is killing more people than religion today, it's a similar blind faith philosophy that we'll all live better lives if we just keep working!(you could say that the early critics saw that and brought in their own belief in communism).
while out of sight in Bangladesh it insidiously enslaves people into poverty and death for the belief in having next year's must have fashion will somehow make you a better person!.
I don't have a problem if somebody wanted to live by Jesus of Nazareths teachings of throwing out the money lenders, turning the other cheek and loving their enemies, there noble things, of course most people mix capitalist beliefs and Jesus's beliefs together, and really that's cheating!.
I think humans look for meanings in life!.... It could be that there isn't any,I think it's highly probable that are brains are not evolved enough or not in the right way for us ever to understand our "place" in life |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yes.The world would always have been better place without it. It's the most ridiculous concept mankind has ever come up with yet for some reason it's always been there, one form or another, since the earliest civilisations. It's like we evolved and thought 'shit, look at the sun. Let's bow before it before it gets angry' and so forth. In the 21st century, we should know better. We question things like 'how can god let a child die with so much suffering?' And yet that's seen as a test of faith by the nàive whos faith will often strengthen towards a judgemental sky fairy. I hate the way creationists deny the idea of evolution to support the idea that a man was created from dust and his Mrs from a rib of said man. There is nothing support any religious faith.
I totally see your point, and I agree to a certain degree, but are we really in any sort if position to tell other people what is real and what is nonsense?
Could you tell the family of someone who has just died that "hey that's their lot now, nothing after this for them"?
Could you look into the eyes of a dying man, and tell him that in a few hours there will be nothing?
I'm not taking a shot at you, but don't you think that in the same way creationists shouldn't try to force us to believe in a deity, that evolutionists, shouldn't make Darwin Jesus, and preach the gospel of the ape (that would be an awesome title for a book)
Like I said, I'm not having a go, its just we are in danger of creating darwinist zealots (great name for a band)
Yeah, good name for a band. And I tell people all time that their belief systems are BS, usually whilst having to defend my own Atheism. I've screamed in the face of priests to stop leading people down a dead end path. I found my self holding the hand of a priest when he gave my nan her her last rites and felt so awkwardly out of place like I was the only one in the room who understood that she was just dying. I wanted to be there for her for the good times I'd shared with her and felt it was marred by the presence of religion. The outcome was the same and she hasn't gone to a better place but (she would have drank bar dry by now if she had), her suffering had stopped and that's all should mattered that day. "
Did your nan request the last rites? Because if she did and it was her wish and her beliefs, and you were there screaming in the face of a priest that's really shitty. No one has last rites or the presence of a priest forced upon them, and neither should they have your atheism forced upon them either. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Kamikaze pilots got their beliefs from a form of Buddhist/Shintoism that spread across imperial Japan!... But the cause was a lack of fuel, they only had enough for one way attacks
But they were fighting for imperial Japan. That was ultimately their motivation. .
Yes that was my point to your original post, you get the war from imperial Japan which had a long history of isolation broken by commerce but you don't get the kamikaze without a religious belief structure.
There's no denying humans don't have the ability to do awful stuff, you just propergate it easier with a religion
And my point in my original post is that I completely disagree - it's just as easy to get people to do awful stuff for reasons of politics, money and power as it is with the existence of religion. "
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Show me politics money and power that causes people to chop off their children's foreskin, sew up their daughters fanny or cut off her clitoris?.
Show me the guy obsessed with profit or land that makes him honour kill his daughter for the crime of being raped! And he did this for the noble reason that she wouldn't get into heaven if he didn't kill her!.
Show me the person who straps explosives around his waste and walks into an airport to maim as many as possible, and he did this for the reason of empire building?.
Show me the capitalist who's flown a 737 into wall St at 550mph in the name of getting rich!.
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You can't get people to do these things without religion and in particular religions that promise them a better life in the hereafter?.
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Sure you can get a person to rob a bank through capitalism but you can't get him to blow up the bank in a suicide attack without some form of "faith".
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Obviously it's important to make the distinction that not all religious people follow their religion in the same way and you could say that some have less faith in it than others!.
Having absolute faith in anything is always going to lead to problems,I mean take the second commandant.
"thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God".
Which Christians follow that rule?.
Now if they had absolute faith in that rule, then you could see why there'd want to burn down your average church or kill pagans! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We'd be killing each other anyway without religion is no reason to be killing each other for religion!.
There's no distinction in morality I'm bad but this guy is worse doesn't make your things good!.
Hitler was bad but Stalin was worse, doesn't mean that the Spanish inquisition was good or OK because we'd do it anyway but by different means!.
In my "world" something's either a bad idea or its not and the belief of something through faith is no better than voting brexit against the facts or as you'd say letting morons vote without being informed! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We'd be killing each other anyway without religion is no reason to be killing each other for religion!.
There's no distinction in morality I'm bad but this guy is worse doesn't make your things good!.
Hitler was bad but Stalin was worse, doesn't mean that the Spanish inquisition was good or OK because we'd do it anyway but by different means!.
In my "world" something's either a bad idea or its not and the belief of something through faith is no better than voting brexit against the facts or as you'd say letting morons vote without being informed!"
Calm down. We vote brexit with the facts |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We may well not have developed as civilisations without religion.
That doesn't excuse how they continue to be allowed to justify all manner of repugnant acts and beliefs in modern educated societies though. |
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"Kamikaze pilots got their beliefs from a form of Buddhist/Shintoism that spread across imperial Japan!... But the cause was a lack of fuel, they only had enough for one way attacks
But they were fighting for imperial Japan. That was ultimately their motivation. .
Yes that was my point to your original post, you get the war from imperial Japan which had a long history of isolation broken by commerce but you don't get the kamikaze without a religious belief structure.
There's no denying humans don't have the ability to do awful stuff, you just propergate it easier with a religion
And my point in my original post is that I completely disagree - it's just as easy to get people to do awful stuff for reasons of politics, money and power as it is with the existence of religion. .
Show me politics money and power that causes people to chop off their children's foreskin, sew up their daughters fanny or cut off her clitoris?.
Show me the guy obsessed with profit or land that makes him honour kill his daughter for the crime of being raped! And he did this for the noble reason that she wouldn't get into heaven if he didn't kill her!.
Show me the person who straps explosives around his waste and walks into an airport to maim as many as possible, and he did this for the reason of empire building?.
Show me the capitalist who's flown a 737 into wall St at 550mph in the name of getting rich!.
.
.
You can't get people to do these things without religion and in particular religions that promise them a better life in the hereafter?.
.
Sure you can get a person to rob a bank through capitalism but you can't get him to blow up the bank in a suicide attack without some form of "faith".
.
Obviously it's important to make the distinction that not all religious people follow their religion in the same way and you could say that some have less faith in it than others!.
Having absolute faith in anything is always going to lead to problems,I mean take the second commandant.
"thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God".
Which Christians follow that rule?.
Now if they had absolute faith in that rule, then you could see why there'd want to burn down your average church or kill pagans!"
I think the gentleman may have a point |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If the yes' can line up on this side and the no's on that side.
Now can both the yes' and no's first fight amongst themselves over every minute detail of their reasons for being a yes or no until only the followers of one argument is left for yes and one for no.
Now fight each other to determine the truth....let me know who wins by pm please as I'll be over there eating cake |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Personally, I don't give a crap either way if there is a god or not. It makes no difference to who I am. I think those that believe are a bunch of morons, but so are those that are very anti - the world is full of morons for one reason or another and losing religion won't change that. Or it might. I really don't care. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Religion is used as an excuse by those who would do evil. If religion had never existed they would find another excuse. Note that I haven't suggested the world is better because of religion. Because I believe those who do good in the name of religion would also do good if it had never existed. If you believe people do more harm because of religion, do you also believe people do more good because of it? Because you can't have it both ways.
Anyway I see all the usual suspects have appeared to assert their superiority so I'll leave you to it. The illuminati and I have had the OP bumped off. |
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"Religion is used as an excuse by those who would do evil. If religion had never existed they would find another excuse. Note that I haven't suggested the world is better because of religion. Because I believe those who do good in the name of religion would also do good if it had never existed. If you believe people do more harm because of religion, do you also believe people do more good because of it? Because you can't have it both ways.
Anyway I see all the usual suspects have appeared to assert their superiority so I'll leave you to it. The illuminati and I have had the OP bumped off. "
Please explain suicide bombing and clit removal in the respect of humans just wanting to do bad things
I'd suggest both of these concepts are defined by good people inspired by religous doctrine |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Whether good people would still do 'good' things is a tricky one because so much of what we consider to be 'good' things has been shaped by the values of religion.
Tricky to know how much influence this has on our character too - even for the non believers. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Religion is used as an excuse by those who would do evil. If religion had never existed they would find another excuse. Note that I haven't suggested the world is better because of religion. Because I believe those who do good in the name of religion would also do good if it had never existed. If you believe people do more harm because of religion, do you also believe people do more good because of it? Because you can't have it both ways.
Anyway I see all the usual suspects have appeared to assert their superiority so I'll leave you to it. The illuminati and I have had the OP bumped off.
Please explain suicide bombing and clit removal in the respect of humans just wanting to do bad things
I'd suggest both of these concepts are defined by good people inspired by religous doctrine "
I'd suggest those concepts are defined by bad people and justified by their interpretation and/or abuse of religion. |
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"Religion is used as an excuse by those who would do evil. If religion had never existed they would find another excuse. Note that I haven't suggested the world is better because of religion. Because I believe those who do good in the name of religion would also do good if it had never existed. If you believe people do more harm because of religion, do you also believe people do more good because of it? Because you can't have it both ways.
Anyway I see all the usual suspects have appeared to assert their superiority so I'll leave you to it. The illuminati and I have had the OP bumped off.
Please explain suicide bombing and clit removal in the respect of humans just wanting to do bad things
I'd suggest both of these concepts are defined by good people inspired by religous doctrine
I'd suggest those concepts are defined by bad people and justified by their interpretation and/or abuse of religion."
Lol so you think every Muslim mother who removes their female child's clit does it with knowing malevolence ?
You think every suicide bomber who believes in a god , sacrifices their life thinking they are doing wrong and will spend their eternity rejected by their deity
I think you may be surprised at the truth xxx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Lol so you think every Muslim mother who removes their female child's clit does it with knowing malevolence ?
You think every suicide bomber who believes in a god , sacrifices their life thinking they are doing wrong and will spend their eternity rejected by their deity
I think you may be surprised at the truth xxx"
I think I can have a more mature debate with my ten year old!
Quite obviously I don't speak with regard to the millions of people who interpret things in their various ways.
I am impressed at your knowledge of how a suicide bombers mind works however. |
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"Lol so you think every Muslim mother who removes their female child's clit does it with knowing malevolence ?
You think every suicide bomber who believes in a god , sacrifices their life thinking they are doing wrong and will spend their eternity rejected by their deity
I think you may be surprised at the truth xxx
I think I can have a more mature debate with my ten year old!
Quite obviously I don't speak with regard to the millions of people who interpret things in their various ways.
I am impressed at your knowledge of how a suicide bombers mind works however."
Always love a good adhomim
That's right interpretation of ambiguous nasty doctrine . Good people can be manipulated and confused |
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"Religion is anathema!
In the beginning man created god in his own image as an excuse for his own cruelty
that's good "
Yes I'd agree too
I'm not saying a god exists and makes humans bad
I'm saying humans some bad invented fucked up memes that have the capacity to manipulate even good humans into bad actions these memes are called religious doctrine
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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ad hominem?
If so it was due to you seemingly more intent on continuing the argument rather than debating the point.
Quite clearly there are good & bad people in religion, and mostly people somewhere between.
Suggesting they're only in one camp or the other is ridiculous. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I'm not saying a god exists and makes humans bad
I'm saying humans some bad invented fucked up memes that have the capacity to manipulate even good humans into bad actions these memes are called religious doctrine
"
No doubt that's the case with some, especially the more cultish belief systems. But I think it may be the other way round in most cases with the older religions, people creating religion out of a desire to explain the world around them, the act of death etc. but at a later time manipulated by others for their own intentions. |
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"ad hominem?
If so it was due to you seemingly more intent on continuing the argument rather than debating the point.
Quite clearly there are good & bad people in religion, and mostly people somewhere between.
Suggesting they're only in one camp or the other is ridiculous."
Did not suggest that nor do I think that
The point was clear the doctrines of god have the power to twist some good people bad
There are other philosophical thoughts that can do the same however the power of the god concept appears to be the most manipulative if not least because it's one that often offers a reward after death based upon following an interpretation of an ambiguous text
Would the world be better without money , yes
Would the world be better without religion yes
Does better mean humans would not kill or do bad stuff , no. But a reasoned argument would suggest less killing and less suffering in both cases xxx
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"I'm not saying a god exists and makes humans bad
I'm saying humans some bad invented fucked up memes that have the capacity to manipulate even good humans into bad actions these memes are called religious doctrine
No doubt that's the case with some, especially the more cultish belief systems. But I think it may be the other way round in most cases with the older religions, people creating religion out of a desire to explain the world around them, the act of death etc. but at a later time manipulated by others for their own intentions."
I'd obviously agree with that
I actually think that mostly religions are of good intent but poorly executed, and very adhoc , leaving them treacherously ambiguous
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Did not man come from dust?"
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No... Man came from ape, ape came from monkey, monkey from small rodent!.. Etc etc
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It's a really sneaky way to create man I guess, create amoebas and then wait around for about a billon years evolution before going ahaa ...I made you in my image  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Did not man come from dust?.
No... Man came from ape, ape came from monkey, monkey from small rodent!.. Etc etc
.
.
It's a really sneaky way to create man I guess, create amoebas and then wait around for about a billon years evolution before going ahaa ...I made you in my image "
Whatever. We still came from dust |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Did not man come from dust?.
No... Man came from ape, ape came from monkey, monkey from small rodent!.. Etc etc
.
.
It's a really sneaky way to create man I guess, create amoebas and then wait around for about a billon years evolution before going ahaa ...I made you in my image
Whatever. We still came from dust"
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Star dust, yes, dirt dust as in the Bible,probably not.
The best guess is a primordial soup and that's liquid.
Although genetically all life shares the same markers, were about 80% the same as a fern |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Did not man come from dust?.
No... Man came from ape, ape came from monkey, monkey from small rodent!.. Etc etc
.
.
It's a really sneaky way to create man I guess, create amoebas and then wait around for about a billon years evolution before going ahaa ...I made you in my image
Whatever. We still came from dust.
Star dust, yes, dirt dust as in the Bible,probably not.
The best guess is a primordial soup and that's liquid.
Although genetically all life shares the same markers, were about 80% the same as a fern"
Well it's only fairly recently that scientists have realised that we are made up of/from stardust so to have come out with that a couple of thousand years or so ago was a bit of a good guess eh |
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