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EU referendum: 250 business leaders back exit
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"At last - business leaders with common sense. Let's get out of this failing and failed organisation called the EU." 
And protect our borders as well as ridding ourselves of mindless bureaucracy. | |||
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"At last - business leaders with common sense. Let's get out of this failing and failed organisation called the EU." You forgot to mention corrupt as well | |||
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"Thing is its all well and good looking people who say leave and stay and their reasons. But keep in mind thats their reasons because they believe they will benefit. Its best to do your research and find out how it will benefit you and what the bigger picture is. Xx"  | |||
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"At last - business leaders with common sense. Let's get out of this failing and failed organisation called the EU." | |||
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"The opinion polls say the stay campaign is leading but I don't know anyone who has declared that they want to stay" . Nobody ever admits to voting Tory or reading the sun either! | |||
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"Only 250 of all the business leaders available. " no, 250 that have come forward and backed leaving, which is much higher than those businesses which back remaining It includes former HSBC chief executive Michael Geoghegan, Tim Martin, chairman of JD Wetherspoons and Carphone Warehouse founder David Ross. Vote Leave has also announced its Business Council will be chaired by John Longworth, who resigned as director general of the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) earlier this month information is not difficult to find its the information you wish to believe that may be difficult | |||
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"Only 250 of all the business leaders available. no, 250 that have come forward and backed leaving, which is much higher than those businesses which back remaining It includes former HSBC chief executive Michael Geoghegan, Tim Martin, chairman of JD Wetherspoons and Carphone Warehouse founder David Ross. Vote Leave has also announced its Business Council will be chaired by John Longworth, who resigned as director general of the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) earlier this month information is not difficult to find its the information you wish to believe that may be difficult" No, it's fine thank you I can use Google too. | |||
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"The opinion polls say the stay campaign is leading but I don't know anyone who has declared that they want to stay. Nobody ever admits to voting Tory or reading the sun either!" I used to vote Tory, and I used to buy the Sun.But the Tories went soft on Europe. An the Sun started backing Labour, and we all know what happened when they got in!!!! Oh and my business is backing the leave campaign, so you better make that 251 Sits, watches and smiles | |||
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"I'd like to point out that every year when the OECD release a comparison of the national figures for the EU the UK is consistently in line with the poorest member states in areas of poverty, deprivation, literacy, education & welfare. " so why is it the UK contributes 2nd highest net cash into EU, only country to pay more is Germany (£net). if we are so poor and in such poverty why is that, why do we not receive higher payments back to take care of our poverty, our NHS, our Schools, our dangerous pot hole filled roads, our welfare and perhaps even a tiny contribution to protect and build flood defences | |||
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"I'd like to point out that every year when the OECD release a comparison of the national figures for the EU the UK is consistently in line with the poorest member states in areas of poverty, deprivation, literacy, education & welfare. These are governmental policy failures-choices MPs that have been 'voted' in have imposed on our society. This has nothing to do with the EU. I'm just wondering what people that are hoping to leave the EU think will suddenly change? The first thing to happen will be that the pound will be worth less everywhere in the world ". That's technically bad for you personally but generally good for your country!. A cheap currency generally promotes exports and deters imports, something we actually need really badly!. | |||
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"I'd like to point out that every year when the OECD release a comparison of the national figures for the EU the UK is consistently in line with the poorest member states in areas of poverty, deprivation, literacy, education & welfare. These are governmental policy failures-choices MPs that have been 'voted' in have imposed on our society. This has nothing to do with the EU. I'm just wondering what people that are hoping to leave the EU think will suddenly change? The first thing to happen will be that the pound will be worth less everywhere in the world .
That's technically bad for you personally but generally good for your country!.
A cheap currency generally promotes exports and deters imports, something we actually need really badly!.
"But what are we producing to potentially export? Our economy is now based on a service provided by banking/money markets & not much else... | |||
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"I'd like to point out that every year when the OECD release a comparison of the national figures for the EU the UK is consistently in line with the poorest member states in areas of poverty, deprivation, literacy, education & welfare. so why is it the UK contributes 2nd highest net cash into EU, only country to pay more is Germany (£net). if we are so poor and in such poverty why is that, why do we not receive higher payments back to take care of our poverty, our NHS, our Schools, our dangerous pot hole filled roads, our welfare and perhaps even a tiny contribution to protect and build flood defences " The EU is not there to 'prop' up our NHS-if that's not working that's the government's & as a society our responsibility. Money is available from the EU for medical research & development and targeting certain health conditions but its up to the Govt's policy mandate to ensure this is taken advantage of…if they don't we can't blame the EU for that. Similarly, EU contributions/funding are available in certain areas to help combat poverty, welfare, education & even a disaster fund for help with issues like flooding. The Govt either take this money & are mostly inefficient with it or they simply don't take it. DC recently refused a handout of 35M offered to help with flood damage. I'm just offering an alternative viewpoint of blaming the EU for problems which are largely caused by the Govts that we put in power & not necessarily us being part of the EU. | |||
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"I'd like to point out that every year when the OECD release a comparison of the national figures for the EU the UK is consistently in line with the poorest member states in areas of poverty, deprivation, literacy, education & welfare. so why is it the UK contributes 2nd highest net cash into EU, only country to pay more is Germany (£net). if we are so poor and in such poverty why is that, why do we not receive higher payments back to take care of our poverty, our NHS, our Schools, our dangerous pot hole filled roads, our welfare and perhaps even a tiny contribution to protect and build flood defences The EU is not there to 'prop' up our NHS-if that's not working that's the government's & as a society our responsibility. Money is available from the EU for medical research & development and targeting certain health conditions but its up to the Govt's policy mandate to ensure this is taken advantage of…if they don't we can't blame the EU for that. Similarly, EU contributions/funding are available in certain areas to help combat poverty, welfare, education & even a disaster fund for help with issues like flooding. The Govt either take this money & are mostly inefficient with it or they simply don't take it. DC recently refused a handout of 35M offered to help with flood damage. I'm just offering an alternative viewpoint of blaming the EU for problems which are largely caused by the Govts that we put in power & not necessarily us being part of the EU. " indeed, so with our exit, £55 million a day can go into the above rather than handed over to EU don't you agree | |||
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"No, I don't. Its impossible and narrow minded imho to just think of the EU in terms of a £55M a day drain on our economy in isolation of the economic & trade benefits that we get in return. !" £55 Million per day is only one of 100's of examples, obviously not the only example, but a bloody good one | |||
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" no, 250 that have come forward and backed leaving, which is much higher than those businesses which back remaining It includes former HSBC chief executive Michael Geoghegan, Tim Martin, chairman of JD Wetherspoons and Carphone Warehouse founder David Ross. Vote Leave has also announced its Business Council will be chaired by John Longworth, who resigned as director general of the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) earlier this month information is not difficult to find its the information you wish to believe that may be difficult" Information isn't difficult to find. The CBI speaks on behalf of 190,000 businesses of all sizes and sectors. Together they employ nearly 7 million people, about one third of the private sector-employed workforce. The CBI has launched another warning about the implications of a vote to leave the European Union, releasing a study claiming Brexit could cost the UK almost a million jobs by the end of the decade. The business lobby group asked accountancy firm PwC to model UK growth under different scenarios after Brexit. The accountancy firm found that annual growth within the EU would be 2.3% to the end of the decade, compared to an average of 1.5% if the UK had a free trade agreement with the EU, or 0.9% if it operated under World Trade Organisation rules | |||
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"I vote Conservative and will vote to leave the EU. The EU membership is being opened to too many piss poor countries that offer nothing to us, but which we subsidise with EU membership fees. If it was purely a trade organisation I would vote to stay. As it is a political hotchpotch... I want out. Lastly, it gets right up my nose that Merkel seems to pull EU strings, considering her decisions are fucking Germany, I don't want her making decisions that influence this country." 'GentlemanBen', you user name and the language you use seem strangely at odds with each other. | |||
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"To my way of thinking the EU is not fit for propose anymore, needs total reforming but unfortunalty all that's going to happen is that the MEP's will sit around for months on end talking back and forth and getting nowhere becaus no one will want anything that's good for the UK. France did not even want us in the common market way back in 67 in fact they said so something like 5 times No to Britain it's documented. The EU is not even what it was way back then it's mutated beyond recognition and gone bad with so much corruption it needs tearing down and restarting but that's not going to happen anytime soon. Britain will never get what it wants from the other states as they will bock any and every change we as a country try to make or enforce. Even the in work benefits changes will never happen as we will just be overruled by most of the parties who get the most out of it. Time to put up or shut up me thinks!" Let me get this straight then. The EU isn't going to change at all: " unfortunalty all that's going to happen is that the MEP's will sit around for months on end talking back and forth and getting nowhere" But your big criticism is that it's changes so much: "The EU is not even what it was way back then it's mutated beyond recognition" But anyway the UK won't get what it wants "Britain will never get what it wants from the other states as they will bock any and every change we as a country try to make" even though independent research has shown that the UK is the most influential big nation in the EU at getting what it wants. So apart from that absolute trash, quite insightful. Not. | |||
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"I wouldn't trust PwC after the whole Tesco fiasco " Oh, OK. What have you against the other 190,000 businesses then? | |||
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"I'd like to point out that every year when the OECD release a comparison of the national figures for the EU the UK is consistently in line with the poorest member states in areas of poverty, deprivation, literacy, education & welfare. These are governmental policy failures-choices MPs that have been 'voted' in have imposed on our society. This has nothing to do with the EU. I'm just wondering what people that are hoping to leave the EU think will suddenly change? The first thing to happen will be that the pound will be worth less everywhere in the world .
That's technically bad for you personally but generally good for your country!.
A cheap currency generally promotes exports and deters imports, something we actually need really badly!.
But what are we producing to potentially export?
Our economy is now based on a service provided by banking/money markets & not much else..."Well Thatcher and Reagan were wrong! . . You can't base an economy on service alone, you certainly shouldn't rely on banking!! And it's impossible to run at a trade imbalance forever, whether inside the EU or out, free trade deals only ever benefit the oligarchs in the long run, sure you'll get your plastic tat cheap from slave labour in the third world but in the end you'll end up working at a pound shop!... and the EU is one big giant plutocratic hegemony! | |||
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"£55 Million per day is only one of 100's of examples, obviously not the only example, but a bloody good one" Just out of interest I live in London. We subsidise the rest of the U.K. by about £40billion a year. About four times more than the net UK payments to the EU. And London will overwhelmingly vote to Remain in the EU. If you vote out, can we have our money back? Oh, and of course, you realise that you will have to pay a significant portion of that money anyway if we come out, IF we want to maintain our trade with the EU. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good story. | |||
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"You can't base an economy on service alone, you certainly shouldn't rely on banking!! And it's impossible to run at a trade imbalance forever, whether inside the EU or out, free trade deals only ever benefit the oligarchs in the long run, sure you'll get your plastic tat cheap from slave labour in the third world but in the end you'll end up working at a pound shop!... and the EU is one big giant plutocratic hegemony!" That was quite an impressive non sequitur...... | |||
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""they say" some need balls, to get up and walk away, start afresh for a better future but then there are a lack of folk with balls in the UK, guess we will see shortly" "They say" people should do their own research on a very important subject and not listen to the type of opinionated tripe that gets put in Daily Mail headlines" | |||
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"The opinion polls say the stay campaign is leading but I don't know anyone who has declared that they want to stay. Nobody ever admits to voting Tory or reading the sun either! I used to vote Tory, and I used to buy the Sun.But the Tories went soft on Europe. An the Sun started backing Labour, and we all know what happened when they got in!!!! Oh and my business is backing the leave campaign, so you better make that 251 Sits, watches and smiles" I just feel sorry for the people who work for you. | |||
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"£55 Million per day is only one of 100's of examples, obviously not the only example, but a bloody good one Just out of interest I live in London. We subsidise the rest of the U.K. by about £40billion a year. About four times more than the net UK payments to the EU. And London will overwhelmingly vote to Remain in the EU. If you vote out, can we have our money back? Oh, and of course, you realise that you will have to pay a significant portion of that money anyway if we come out, IF we want to maintain our trade with the EU. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good story." I suspect you truly honestly believe that aswell thanks, you have just made my day with that quote | |||
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"£55 Million per day is only one of 100's of examples, obviously not the only example, but a bloody good one Just out of interest I live in London. We subsidise the rest of the U.K. by about £40billion a year. About four times more than the net UK payments to the EU. And London will overwhelmingly vote to Remain in the EU. If you vote out, can we have our money back? Oh, and of course, you realise that you will have to pay a significant portion of that money anyway if we come out, IF we want to maintain our trade with the EU. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good story. I suspect you truly honestly believe that aswell thanks, you have just made my day with that quote "Everything I write is researched and accurate. Unlike some on here! You can go and research it yourself. Unless of course you have closed your mind already! "Information is not difficult to find". But I'm very glad I made your day. As I tell my 10 year old - every day is a school day! | |||
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"You can't base an economy on service alone, you certainly shouldn't rely on banking!! And it's impossible to run at a trade imbalance forever, whether inside the EU or out, free trade deals only ever benefit the oligarchs in the long run, sure you'll get your plastic tat cheap from slave labour in the third world but in the end you'll end up working at a pound shop!... and the EU is one big giant plutocratic hegemony! That was quite an impressive non sequitur......" . Well it's one of those things, I'm really not that fussed either in or out..... It's not a particularly big problem for me personally, I've got some money and a house that's mortgage free and a set of skills that will get me into any country I wish to go to should I wish to leave!. Stay in or go, makes little difference in the end | |||
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"Well it's one of those things, I'm really not that fussed either in or out..... It's not a particularly big problem for me personally, I've got some money and a house that's mortgage free and a set of skills that will get me into any country I wish to go to should I wish to leave!. Stay in or go, makes little difference in the end" Well, we certainly can't do a back-to-back comparison of In versus Out to see which one is best, that's for sure. It's funny. I think you and I have very similar views on many things....it's just they have taken us to different conclusions. I suspect we'd have a fascinating discussion over a few beers. | |||
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"At last - business leaders with common sense. Let's get out of this failing and failed organisation called the EU.
And protect our borders as well as ridding ourselves of mindless bureaucracy."BTW, just for factual accuracy, we do already protect our own borders. We are not in Schengen, so have complete control to stop, question or refuse entry for anyone to the UK if we have due cause. | |||
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"I'd like to point out that every year when the OECD release a comparison of the national figures for the EU the UK is consistently in line with the poorest member states in areas of poverty, deprivation, literacy, education & welfare. These are governmental policy failures-choices MPs that have been 'voted' in have imposed on our society. This has nothing to do with the EU. I'm just wondering what people that are hoping to leave the EU think will suddenly change? The first thing to happen will be that the pound will be worth less everywhere in the world "
What I don't get is why people would want to pay attention to what 'big' business leaders think about this matter. I mean it's not like businesses are in the business of making decisions which benefit the common man. All they care about are their profits and how much tax they can get away with not paying. It's we the mugs who are really keeping the country afloat as this government continually robs from the 'poor' to give to the 'rich'
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"Well it's one of those things, I'm really not that fussed either in or out..... It's not a particularly big problem for me personally, I've got some money and a house that's mortgage free and a set of skills that will get me into any country I wish to go to should I wish to leave!. Stay in or go, makes little difference in the end Well, we certainly can't do a back-to-back comparison of In versus Out to see which one is best, that's for sure. It's funny. I think you and I have very similar views on many things....it's just they have taken us to different conclusions. I suspect we'd have a fascinating discussion over a few beers." . In politics I find I usually answer no to everything Do I think David Cameron is evil. No Do I think he's any good. No Did i think Tony Blair is evil. No Did I think he was any good. No Do I think unlimited immigration is the greatest thing since sliced bread. no Do I despise foreigners. No Do we need the EU. No Will we be better off if we leave. No. . . I'm a trotskyite at heart with an anarchist steak a mile wide, I utterly despise the system we have but I'm completely underwhelmed by previous attempts, I don't think there's anything we can do in the long run to save ourselves from ourselves or our way of life! Something's just are what they are! | |||
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" no, 250 that have come forward and backed leaving, which is much higher than those businesses which back remaining It includes former HSBC chief executive Michael Geoghegan, Tim Martin, chairman of JD Wetherspoons and Carphone Warehouse founder David Ross. Vote Leave has also announced its Business Council will be chaired by John Longworth, who resigned as director general of the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) earlier this month information is not difficult to find its the information you wish to believe that may be difficult Information isn't difficult to find. The CBI speaks on behalf of 190,000 businesses of all sizes and sectors. Together they employ nearly 7 million people, about one third of the private sector-employed workforce. The CBI has launched another warning about the implications of a vote to leave the European Union, releasing a study claiming Brexit could cost the UK almost a million jobs by the end of the decade. The business lobby group asked accountancy firm PwC to model UK growth under different scenarios after Brexit. The accountancy firm found that annual growth within the EU would be 2.3% to the end of the decade, compared to an average of 1.5% if the UK had a free trade agreement with the EU, or 0.9% if it operated under World Trade Organisation rules " This is the same CBI that get hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of funding from the EU so you don't think that could sway them to be biased in some way then? It's also the same CBI that sided with Peter Mandelson, and Nick Clegg before and told us we'd suffer terrible economic consequences and jobs would be lost if we didn't join the euro. Just look at how wrong they were on that one, the CBI is a business group but when it comes to making political decisions they have a very poor track record. | |||
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" no, 250 that have come forward and backed leaving, which is much higher than those businesses which back remaining It includes former HSBC chief executive Michael Geoghegan, Tim Martin, chairman of JD Wetherspoons and Carphone Warehouse founder David Ross. Vote Leave has also announced its Business Council will be chaired by John Longworth, who resigned as director general of the British Chambers of Commerce (BCC) earlier this month information is not difficult to find its the information you wish to believe that may be difficult Information isn't difficult to find. The CBI speaks on behalf of 190,000 businesses of all sizes and sectors. Together they employ nearly 7 million people, about one third of the private sector-employed workforce. The CBI has launched another warning about the implications of a vote to leave the European Union, releasing a study claiming Brexit could cost the UK almost a million jobs by the end of the decade. The business lobby group asked accountancy firm PwC to model UK growth under different scenarios after Brexit. The accountancy firm found that annual growth within the EU would be 2.3% to the end of the decade, compared to an average of 1.5% if the UK had a free trade agreement with the EU, or 0.9% if it operated under World Trade Organisation rules This is the same CBI that get hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of funding from the EU so you don't think that could sway them to be biased in some way then? It's also the same CBI that sided with Peter Mandelson, and Nick Clegg before and told us we'd suffer terrible economic consequences and jobs would be lost if we didn't join the euro. Just look at how wrong they were on that one, the CBI is a business group but when it comes to making political decisions they have a very poor track record. " Well, it's the CBI that speaks on behalf of 190,000 businesses of all sizes and sectors. Together they employ nearly 7 million people, about one third of the private sector-employed workforce. So, on a thread that started that '250 business leaders support Brexit' (note, 250, note 190,000) then it's pretty relevant. BTW, A number of your statements have been wrong or on this subject. It doesn't mean that no-one should listen to you on anything you ever say again. Ad Hominem attacks are a pretty poor line of argument, don't you agree? | |||
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"Well it's one of those things, I'm really not that fussed either in or out..... It's not a particularly big problem for me personally, I've got some money and a house that's mortgage free and a set of skills that will get me into any country I wish to go to should I wish to leave!. Stay in or go, makes little difference in the end Well, we certainly can't do a back-to-back comparison of In versus Out to see which one is best, that's for sure. It's funny. I think you and I have very similar views on many things....it's just they have taken us to different conclusions. I suspect we'd have a fascinating discussion over a few beers.. In politics I find I usually answer no to everything Do I think David Cameron is evil. No Do I think he's any good. No Did i think Tony Blair is evil. No Did I think he was any good. No Do I think unlimited immigration is the greatest thing since sliced bread. no Do I despise foreigners. No Do we need the EU. No Will we be better off if we leave. No. . . I'm a trotskyite at heart with an anarchist steak a mile wide, I utterly despise the system we have but I'm completely underwhelmed by previous attempts, I don't think there's anything we can do in the long run to save ourselves from ourselves or our way of life! Something's just are what they are! " Yep, I was right. It would be an interesting few beers. | |||
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"or if they break the law like most from a certain eu country, they should be deported and banned. " So let's just be clear then. I assume you refer to Romania, but you'd prefer not to say the word. And you think that 'most' i.e. more than 50% of Romanian people in the UK break the law. So is this just a racist, bigoted opinion you have, or do you actually have any facts that back up you (albeit vailed) assertion. | |||
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"the biggest thing here is ....if the uk go...so will others very quickly ...then the eu will fall apart......thank fuck for that" Your analysis of global geo-politics is fascinating. Yes, it's clear that the EU doesn't want the UK to leave, for a number of reasons. One of which is that, if the UK gets an easy ride out, then other countries might be tempted - most notably Greece and Hungary. Greece has of course recently decided to stay in. So, I'm not sure Hungary and the U.K. leaving will see 'the EU fall apart..thank fuck for that' however much you dream. You are right though that it probably does mean that the EU will give the UK an exceptionally hard time in any exit negotiations - just to make sure no-one else is incentivised to leave. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you rightly point out a very important reason not to Brexit. Thank you. | |||
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"It's just a few people who own a business, an insignificant speck of dust in the British business world. When the FTSE 100 scream ro stay in or go then it'll be significant. " Only 1 third of FTSE 100 companies have said they want to stay in the EU. That means 2 thirds of FTSE 100 companies have not. | |||
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"the biggest thing here is ....if the uk go...so will others very quickly ...then the eu will fall apart......thank fuck for that Your analysis of global geo-politics is fascinating. Yes, it's clear that the EU doesn't want the UK to leave, for a number of reasons. One of which is that, if the UK gets an easy ride out, then other countries might be tempted - most notably Greece and Hungary. Greece has of course recently decided to stay in. So, I'm not sure Hungary and the U.K. leaving will see 'the EU fall apart..thank fuck for that' however much you dream. You are right though that it probably does mean that the EU will give the UK an exceptionally hard time in any exit negotiations - just to make sure no-one else is incentivised to leave. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you rightly point out a very important reason not to Brexit. Thank you." Exactly, they won't worry about us leaving, they'll just replace us with other european nations, like turkey  or israel i mean why not, they're in eurovision. | |||
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"the biggest thing here is ....if the uk go...so will others very quickly ...then the eu will fall apart......thank fuck for that Your analysis of global geo-politics is fascinating. Yes, it's clear that the EU doesn't want the UK to leave, for a number of reasons. One of which is that, if the UK gets an easy ride out, then other countries might be tempted - most notably Greece and Hungary. Greece has of course recently decided to stay in. So, I'm not sure Hungary and the U.K. leaving will see 'the EU fall apart..thank fuck for that' however much you dream. You are right though that it probably does mean that the EU will give the UK an exceptionally hard time in any exit negotiations - just to make sure no-one else is incentivised to leave. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you rightly point out a very important reason not to Brexit. Thank you. Exactly, they won't worry about us leaving, they'll just replace us with other european nations, like turkey or israel i mean why not, they're in eurovision."so are Australia  | |||
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"It's just a few people who own a business, an insignificant speck of dust in the British business world. When the FTSE 100 scream ro stay in or go then it'll be significant. Only 1 third of FTSE 100 companies have said they want to stay in the EU. That means 2 thirds of FTSE 100 companies have not. " And, so far as I can see, absolutely not a single one supports Brexit. Which, even if it were a rugby score, is a crushing defeat for Brexit. | |||
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"the biggest thing here is ....if the uk go...so will others very quickly ...then the eu will fall apart......thank fuck for that Your analysis of global geo-politics is fascinating. Yes, it's clear that the EU doesn't want the UK to leave, for a number of reasons. One of which is that, if the UK gets an easy ride out, then other countries might be tempted - most notably Greece and Hungary. Greece has of course recently decided to stay in. So, I'm not sure Hungary and the U.K. leaving will see 'the EU fall apart..thank fuck for that' however much you dream. You are right though that it probably does mean that the EU will give the UK an exceptionally hard time in any exit negotiations - just to make sure no-one else is incentivised to leave. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you rightly point out a very important reason not to Brexit. Thank you. Exactly, they won't worry about us leaving, they'll just replace us with other european nations, like turkey or israel i mean why not, they're in eurovision."I think you get 'Nul Point' for that one | |||
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"At last - business leaders with common sense. Let's get out of this failing and failed organisation called the EU.
And protect our borders as well as ridding ourselves of mindless bureaucracy.
BTW, just for factual accuracy, we do already protect our own borders. We are not in Schengen, so have complete control to stop, question or refuse entry for anyone to the UK if we have due cause."Good spin but as you well know not really true. Britain does not have "complete" control of its borders. All the Schengen agreement did was to abolish internal borders in favour of one external border. So, for example, we can drive from Germany to Spain via Luxembourg and France without having our papers checked. Britain's opt out only means that that it can check the papers of people entering the country and refuse non EU citizens. The free movement rules are completely separate to Schengen meaning anyone with an EU passport (or just their national ID card) has to be waved through. Currently around 500 million EU citizens have that right. Soon to be increased by 75 million Turks. | |||
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" And protect our borders as well as ridding ourselves of mindless bureaucracy." If we leave we won't have much of a chance in protecting our borders. The French for example are not going to stop people like they do now. | |||
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"the biggest thing here is ....if the uk go...so will others very quickly ...then the eu will fall apart......thank fuck for that Your analysis of global geo-politics is fascinating. Yes, it's clear that the EU doesn't want the UK to leave, for a number of reasons. One of which is that, if the UK gets an easy ride out, then other countries might be tempted - most notably Greece and Hungary. Greece has of course recently decided to stay in. So, I'm not sure Hungary and the U.K. leaving will see 'the EU fall apart..thank fuck for that' however much you dream. You are right though that it probably does mean that the EU will give the UK an exceptionally hard time in any exit negotiations - just to make sure no-one else is incentivised to leave. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you rightly point out a very important reason not to Brexit. Thank you." Yes it is possible that, in the short term, Brussels will play hard ball to set an example to others, and as I've said before, I can see Tusk, Juncker, and Schulz (among others) chucking their toys out of the pram for a while. In the long term more level headed voices will take over when EU businesses see one of their biggest export markets being washed down "Le Manche" | |||
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" And protect our borders as well as ridding ourselves of mindless bureaucracy. If we leave we won't have much of a chance in protecting our borders. The French for example are not going to stop people like they do now. " No, the border agreement with France is bilateral and separate from the EU. | |||
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"the biggest thing here is ....if the uk go...so will others very quickly ...then the eu will fall apart......thank fuck for that Your analysis of global geo-politics is fascinating. Yes, it's clear that the EU doesn't want the UK to leave, for a number of reasons. One of which is that, if the UK gets an easy ride out, then other countries might be tempted - most notably Greece and Hungary. Greece has of course recently decided to stay in. So, I'm not sure Hungary and the U.K. leaving will see 'the EU fall apart..thank fuck for that' however much you dream. You are right though that it probably does mean that the EU will give the UK an exceptionally hard time in any exit negotiations - just to make sure no-one else is incentivised to leave. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you rightly point out a very important reason not to Brexit. Thank you. Yes it is possible that, in the short term, Brussels will play hard ball to set an example to others, and as I've said before, I can see Tusk, Juncker, and Schulz (among others) chucking their toys out of the pram for a while. In the long term more level headed voices will take over when EU businesses see one of their biggest export markets being washed down "Le Manche"" Oh I forgot to add that if you are looking for the next dominoes to fall it would be better to cast your eyes north. Greece wont leave the EU although it could still be forced out of the Euro. I very much doubt that Hungary would pull out either. However Denmark and Finland could be a very different story altogether. | |||
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"SOVEREIGNTY Britain’s membership of the European Union is unconstitutional for several reasons. Firstly it causes her Majesty The Queen to be in breach of her coronation oath in which she promised to govern the peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland “according to their respective laws and customs”. It also contravenes the Bill of Rights Act 1689 which provided for freedom of speech and debate and that proceedings in Parliament “ought not to be impeached or questioned in court or any place out of Parliament”. It is in breach of the Act of Settlements 1700 section 4 which states that “the laws of England are birthright of the people”. It also breaches the principal established in the 1932 case of Vauxhall Estates v Liverpool Corporation IKV733 that “no Parliament may bind its successors” as section 2.1 of the European Communities Act 1972 provides that all obligations created by the European Union treaties can be enforced in Britain and without further enactment thereby giving the European Commission the right to create new laws which are binding on the citizens of the United Kingdom without reference to our own Parliament. Membership of the EU is also in breach of the Magna Carta which provides that “no free man shall be disseised of his liberties of free customs nor will we not pass upon him but by law of the land How the EU works The European Commission The unelected European Commission has the monopoly of proposing all EU legislation, which it does in secret. It can also issue “Regulations”, which are automatically binding in all Member States. It is run by a college of 27 commissioners, currently one for each member state. It has 37 branches, or “Directorates General”, each run by a Director General. The Directors General have the real power and can rule for many years. They cannot be removed from office. The Commission is more a Government than a Commission. The list of Commissioners is decided by qualified majority of the European Council on the basis of the ”suggestions” of national governments, but they are not delegates or representatives. They are appointed for five years. On appointment they swear an oath not to seek or take instructions from any Member Government. Their allegiance is to the EU, not to their own countries. Portfolios are distributed by the Commission President, who is decided by the European Council of Prime Ministers and Presidents on the basis of Qualified Majority Voting. The Commission is a legislative machine, continually producing new draft directives and regulations which are passed to the Council of Ministers and European Parliament for final decision. Each individual Commissioner seeks to make his or her mark during the five-year period in office by proposing new laws for the portfolio area they cover. Thus a condition for supranational legislation in the EU is that draft laws cannot be proposed by elected representatives. French President Charles De Gaulle described the Commission as “a conclave of technocrats without a country, responsible to nobody”. The Commission also has quasi-judicial powers. It can adjudicate on competition cases in the single market and impose fines on EU members. Even though parties can appeal to the Court of Justice, the Commission acts as if it were a lower court. It is supported by some 3,000 “secret” working groups, whose members are not publicly known. It is at this level that most Commission decisions are actually made and corporate lobbyists wield their influence. The Council of Ministers The Council of Ministers from Member States passes EU legislation, often by majority voting, and again in secret. The UK has 8.4% of the votes. Sometimes it has to consult the European Parliament and has the final say on Commission proposals. The Council of Ministers is called a Council, but it makes laws just like a Parliament on the basis of the Commission’s proposals. It makes these laws in secret, often in the form of package-deals between its member governments, and it takes some executive decisions. Approximately 85% of EU directives and regulations are agreed privately in some 300 committees of civil servants from the EU Member States which service the Council of Ministers. Most of what these committees agree on is nodded through without debate at Council meetings. Only some 15% of EU laws are actually discussed or negotiated at that level. Most EU laws are agreed by consensus among Ministers on the Council, but a process of “shadow-voting” takes place all the time whereby Ministers look round to see whether a qualified majority or a blocking minority exists for any proposal. Small countries rarely push matters to a vote if they see that the big countries are agreed on something. The Council of Ministers, the primary EU legislature, is responsible collectively to nobody. It is irremoveable as a group, although individual Ministers may be criticised or removed from office at national level. A committee of legislators, it is an oligarchy in the exact meaning of that word. The European Council This is quite distinct from the Council of Ministers, is the quarterly “summit” meeting of the Heads of State and Government, the national Prime Ministers and Presidents. It gives overall political direction to the EU and decides its policy priorities. Unlike the Council of Ministers it does not make EU laws directly, but as the Prime Ministers and Presidents appoint Government Ministers at national level, they can determine indirectly what the Council of Ministers does. Before the EU Constitution was embodied in the Lisbon Treaty, national Prime Ministers and Presidents would meet on an ad hoc basis outside the Treaties. The Lisbon Treaty completed the constitutionally Federalist structure of the Union by turning the European Council into a formal EU institution whose actions or failures to act are therefore, at least in principle, subject to review by the Court of Justice, although that has not happened to date. The European Council elects its President by qualified majority vote for a term of two and a half years, renewable once. The European Council President thus gives continuity of policy at supranational level for up to five years, while national Prime Ministers and Presidents come and go during that time. The European Parliament The European Parliament consists of 785 MEP’s, elected every 5 years, is more a Council than a Parliament. It cannot initiate any EU law, although it can amend draft laws which come to it from the Commission and Council of Ministers so long as the Commission agrees. If the Commission disagrees, all 28 Member States must be in agreement to allow an amendment by the Parliament to be adopted. If the Council and Commission cannot agree on a legislative amendment proposed by the Parliament the Treaty provides a complex “conciliation procedure” to try to get them to agree (Art.294 TFEU). If the Parliament by an absolute majority of its 751 members opposes a draft directive from the Commission, it cannot become law. This rarely happens as the Commission and Parliament, both supranational bodies, tend to work hand in glove vis-à-vis the Council of Ministers representing the Member States. Both Parliament and Commission want ever more supranational legislation, not less. The Parliament has the final say over the EU budget except for agriculture. If it vetoes new budget proposals, the previous year’s EU budget is repeated. The Lisbon Treaty made Members of the European Parliament, who under the previous treaties were “representatives of the peoples of the States brought together in the Community” into “representatives of the Union’s citizens” (Art.14.2 TEU). To copy the party structures that one finds in normal parliaments, encourage people to think “European” and weaken national allegiances further, the Commission provides funds to finance cross-national parties in the European Parliament. Most MEPs belong to these cross-national “political families” – Conservatives (European People’s Party), Socialists, Liberals, Greens and so on. Most national citizens across the EU are indifferent to the European Parliament, as is shown by low voter turnout in successive five-yearly elections and the fact that turnout keeps falling each time. Euro-Parliament elections are generally fought on national rather than EU-related issues, with much attention being usually given to MEPs’ lavish pay and perks. The EU’s “citizens” think nationally, not supranationally. In no way do they consider the European Parliament “their” Parliament. The Economic and Social Committee and the Committee of the Regions. These must be consulted on various issues laid down in the Treaties and in all cases where the EU institutions think it appropriate. The former consists of representative of business, trade unions, farmers, consumers and professional bodies, the latter of representatives of sub-national authorities, regions, countries, provinces, municipalities and cities. Each committee has 353 members, nominated by the Member States. They play a powerful role in encouraging key domestic lobby groups to look to Brussels rather than their own Member States to influence policy, instilling a supranational mind-set and eroding national loyalties in the process. Advised by these Committees, the Commission disburses an annual budget of hundreds of millions of euros to endow a host of national lobby-groups and interest groups and encourage them to look to Brussels for funding, by-passing their national governments in the process. Journalists, women’s groups, youth groups, trade unions, pro-EU think-tanks, anti-poverty lobbyists, the disabled, university researchers, environmentalists, regionalists, minority-language advocates and the Christian churches are offered access to Commission funds of one kind or another in this way. Their representatives are dined and wined on expenses-paid trips to Brussels. This amounts in effect to the Commission paying lobbyists to lobby itself to do what it wants to do in the first place, which is to produce policies that seek to move things continually from the national to the supranational level. A wide range of interest groups and lobby-groups are encouraged in this way to subscribe to the Euro-federalist ideology and disseminate it to their members and supporters back home using EU money. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) The Commission is the sole enforcer of all EU legislation and decisions, supported when necessary by the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg (ECJ or LCJ). This is not an independent court of law; it is the engine of the “ever closer union of peoples of Europe” required by the EU Treaties. It is financed by the EU, and has the final say on all EU matters, including employment cases. There is no appeal against final verdicts. The ECJ is not just a court but is a constitution-maker, with powers similar to what some Parliaments have (see below). It is a highly political Court, “a court with a mission”, to use the self-description of one of its judges. That mission is continually to interpret the treaties in such a way as to extend the legal powers of the EU to the utmost. Various judgements of the ECJ have moved the EU in directions which were never envisaged by the people originally drawing up the treaties. The Court follows the continental legal tradition of interpreting laws by reference to the assumed purposes of the legislators or treaty-makers, as gauged from preambles, statements of intention or lists of objectives. This contrasts with the Anglo-Saxon tradition of basing judgements on what laws actually say in the present tense. As an “ever closer union” was the overriding objective of the original Treaty of Rome, this justifies all sorts of supranational legal activism towards that end. The European Court of First Instance, hears cases before they reach the European Court of Justice. The Court of Auditors, which is also financed out of the EU budget, is supposed to guarantee the proper use of the EU funds to taxpayers. It has been unable to do this for many years. There are no external auditors. " I like this man. Brilliant. Bravo sir | |||
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"249 as they lied about 1" The government and the Romainians, oh err sorry the Remainians, put together a list of British generals which they released to the press to say we'd be better off staying in. Only one of those generals then came out to say he never gave consent for his name to be put on the list, he'd never been asked and he didn't know anything about it prior to the list being released. The government and the Remainians lied deliberately trying to mislead the British public, the general who said he didn't know anything about the list said he was actually in favour of Brexit. | |||
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"FARMING If you chat to farmers on a shooting trailer or a pub about leaving the EU there is always one who will moan, “but I can’t make a profit without my Single Farm Payment” and his head will go straight into the sand. However, that man is making an assumption. He is assuming that the EU is the only institution in the world that supports agriculture. He is wrong, the USA have their Counter Cyclical Program, Canada has its Crop Price Insurance Scheme, even Japan has The Basic Law combined with the Basic Plan. Historically, this country has been through the mill on the subject of agricultural support. We know that when it was overdone we were obliged to repeal the “Corn Laws” and later when we let Agriculture ‘go hang’ in the 1940s, people did not have enough to eat. We learned from that experience, and from the end of the war, right up until the day we joined the CAP, we supported agriculture. Looking forward, the only political party wanting to take us out of the EU, (it is called UKIP by the way!] states categorically in its manifesto that it will support agriculture. Any Government of an independent Britain will need to consider the issue of food security. As a crowded island of 62 million people can we really rely on foreigners to produce all of our food, just because it might be slightly cheaper? There are two huge risks. One is a dramatic loss of supply after a few years due to, say, a drought in the Southern hemisphere. The other is the real risk of terrorism with all of this food arriving through a handful of deep water ports and Heathrow. What a gift to a terrorist. It only needs one such incident, the threat of others and our ‘just in time’ food supply is disrupted. Five consecutively missed meals results in anarchy. I just cannot see our government taking the risk. Some taxpayers money to support a reliable production base here, is the less bad option. The CAP has changed considerably over the years, which is probably why we are talking about this now. The proportion of the EU budget allocated to agriculture has significantly dropped and in the reform we are discussing at the moment it is scheduled to keep dropping. The new countries joining, Croatia, Macedonia, Ukraine and Turkey, will all be net recipients of the EU Budget meaning that your Single Farm Payment will be further reduced. This expansion to the South and East has two further dynamics there was a scandal in operation here a few years ago. Sheep farmers and graziers were paying competitive rents for MOD airfields, etc, but the MOD appeared to refuse point blank to purchase their sheepmeat supplies for the troops and civilian employees from the home market. They were virtually forced into this position by Pascal Lamy the EU Trade Commissioner. He went to South America and said ” I can guarantee that the UK Government will buy your sheepmeat, if you in turn buy your Fiat cars from Spain and Italy”. So Spain and Italy win, we lose, what’s new in the EU? No discussion on EU agriculture is complete without reference to regulation. We are drowned in it. For example: the Nitrates Directive. We used to have our own maximum level of 100 milligrams per litre of water. There were no health scares at this level. When the EU took over they halved the level to 50. The difference is critical. The NFU commissioned a study to discover what measures we would need to take to remain under 50. The answer came back that half of East Anglia would need to be left as ungrazed set-aside plus a fair slice of the East Midlands. Then we have this huge con trick about man-made global warming, driven by computer models. These same computer models and experts, made a complete hash of forecasting our winter weather three years running. Was I the only farmer last year to lose a third of his sugar beet crop, frozen solid into the ground by global warming? Am I the only farmer who needs Carbon Dioxide to make his crops grow? But in the EU this scam is a religion. What a wonderful excuse to boss us all about. You will have to play your part. Arable farmers must divert the exhaust of their tractors over the cab and into the soil via the tines of trailed implements. Think of the power this will consume. Think of the seedbeds it will spoil. Livestock farmers: your sheep and cattle are producing too much methane. You must feed them less grass, hay and silage. And more cereals and concentrates! The madness doesn’t end here. This set-aside that is returning is nothing to do with controlling supply. It is a “climate change” measure. The logic is that if 7% of the EU is not farmed properly, then the world’s weather will improve! We have the Working Time Directive. When this is enforced properly it will be hugely inconvenient for farmers and employees alike. There is the Physical Agents Directive. It hasn’t been buried, only parked. When last seen it said that farmers could only sit on a tractor seat for three hours a day! The Pesticides Directive is removing pesticides from our shelves, making it difficult or impossible to grow certain minority crops that will now need to be imported. Legislation going through the European Parliament at the moment on very small tractors includes 37 closely typed pages of script on how to test their roll bars. We can thrive without that! Everyday, at least 1000 sheep, fallen stock are transported up to 100 miles to be roasted at 900 degrees centigrade. You talk about Global Warming! There are millions of acres on which these animals could be safely buried. We used to have a fishing industry in this country, until it was destroyed by the EU. Surplus fish were processed into fishmeal, a very useful protein source for our livestock. The EU took over and now this surplus has to be dumped, dead, at the bottom of the sea. An independent Britain could turn this round. All over the world farmers are exporting food and feedstuffs to the EU, tariff free. They do not have to adhere to these rules, so WHY SHOULD WE? " . I'm not really an expert on the EU but I will have to pull you up on this!. Firstly predicting the weather and predicting climate change are two completely different things, for instance let's say you want to go on holiday to Portugal, if you Google weather/Portugal, you'll get a roughly accurate 7 day forecast, however let's say you wanted to know what it's like in July, well Google Portugal/weather in July and you'll get it's climate, ie it averages 12 hours sunshine a day, it's roughly 28 degrees during the day and 20 at night... There averages of past recordings and what you can expect not what they forecast (it's actually much easier to predict climate than weather, there's less variables). Secondly climate change computer models!, this old chestnut!. So yes science is using complicated algorithm based models to predict climate change but there not solely used to predict change, they use observational and calculated as well, the funny thing is, in general they've actually been predicting less than we've observed ie 20 years ago the computer models predicted we wouldn't have a problem with the Arctic sea ice until 2100 but the observational shows us were going to have problems with it by 2025-2030, the computer predicted we'd only have a 0.4 degree rise in temperature by 2020 but observation shows were going to have a 1 degree rise, so in fact if you wanna slag the models off, it's because the models are far too optimistic!. Thirdly, trying to put carbon into the ground from exhausts is a slowing process, it's trying to delay it getting into the atmosphere, where we know from science (not computer models) it will warm the temperature, however your correct and it is only a slowing process, sooner or later the carbon leeches from the soil into the atmosphere. Fourthly, in or out of the EU, the UK has committed along with the rest of the WORLD to lower c02 emissions and quite frankly if we don't do it fast, whether your in or out of the EU will be the least of your problems! | |||
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"The "stayers" seem to have gone very quiet. "Too busy partying. It's like the last few months of the Weimar Republic for us | |||
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"249 as they lied about 1 The government and the Romainians, oh err sorry the Remainians, put together a list of British generals which they released to the press to say we'd be better off staying in. Only one of those generals then came out to say he never gave consent for his name to be put on the list, he'd never been asked and he didn't know anything about it prior to the list being released. The government and the Remainians lied deliberately trying to mislead the British public, the general who said he didn't know anything about the list said he was actually in favour of Brexit. " You're from the Nock, for fucks sake talk in English man that makes no sense | |||
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"249 as they lied about 1 The government and the Romainians, oh err sorry the Remainians, put together a list of British generals which they released to the press to say we'd be better off staying in. Only one of those generals then came out to say he never gave consent for his name to be put on the list, he'd never been asked and he didn't know anything about it prior to the list being released. The government and the Remainians lied deliberately trying to mislead the British public, the general who said he didn't know anything about the list said he was actually in favour of Brexit. You're from the Nock, for fucks sake talk in English man that makes no sense " Come on don't try to pretend you never heard about this story, it was on every news channel and in every newspaper when the story broke. The Guardian even ran the story so it must be true, lol. Here is the link if you want to have a look at it. www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/no-10-apologises-special-forces-chief-eu-letter-gen-sir-michael-rose | |||
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"Not sure how I want to vote about the EU!!!!! On the one hand we need to trade with EU so if we go the companies that export will still have to follow the rules!! But as a HGV driver I want them to take there bloody "Working Time Directive" & shove it up there bottoms!!!!!! " Does the working time directive limit the amount of hours you drive? If so, I'm in favour of it as to minimise the number of drivers who crash through being over tired. | |||
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"Not sure how I want to vote about the EU!!!!! On the one hand we need to trade with EU so if we go the companies that export will still have to follow the rules!! But as a HGV driver I want them to take there bloody "Working Time Directive" & shove it up there bottoms!!!!!! Does the working time directive limit the amount of hours you drive? If so, I'm in favour of it as to minimise the number of drivers who crash through being over tired. " Many corporations request their employers to sign out of the working time directive | |||
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"Not sure how I want to vote about the EU!!!!! On the one hand we need to trade with EU so if we go the companies that export will still have to follow the rules!! But as a HGV driver I want them to take there bloody "Working Time Directive" & shove it up there bottoms!!!!!! Does the working time directive limit the amount of hours you drive? If so, I'm in favour of it as to minimise the number of drivers who crash through being over tired. Many corporations request their employers to sign out of the working time directive" As drivers we can't sign out!!!! EU rules say we can't !! It's a damn nightmare if we work 60 hrs we have to off set 12 hrs as breaks & POA & at times it's a struggle ... | |||
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" And protect our borders as well as ridding ourselves of mindless bureaucracy. If we leave we won't have much of a chance in protecting our borders. The French for example are not going to stop people like they do now. No, the border agreement with France is bilateral and separate from the EU." We are an Island, I am sure with decent policing it shouldn't be difficult to control our own borders. Also we will be out the EU and will not be subject to their laws. If France or any other EU country send us a load of illegal immigrants, it should not be difficult to merely provide them with a return ticket! | |||
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"£55 Million per day is only one of 100's of examples, obviously not the only example, but a bloody good one Just out of interest I live in London. We subsidise the rest of the U.K. by about £40billion a year. About four times more than the net UK payments to the EU. And London will overwhelmingly vote to Remain in the EU. If you vote out, can we have our money back? Oh, and of course, you realise that you will have to pay a significant portion of that money anyway if we come out, IF we want to maintain our trade with the EU. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good story." It is good that British money goes to British people and ridiculous that we waste a load to the EU. To say that the EU will charge us for trade is wrong, they need us far more than we need them and new trade agreements will be easy to draw up if necessary. | |||
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"£55 Million per day is only one of 100's of examples, obviously not the only example, but a bloody good one Just out of interest I live in London. We subsidise the rest of the U.K. by about £40billion a year. About four times more than the net UK payments to the EU. And London will overwhelmingly vote to Remain in the EU. If you vote out, can we have our money back? Oh, and of course, you realise that you will have to pay a significant portion of that money anyway if we come out, IF we want to maintain our trade with the EU. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good story." You quote that London supports the rest of the UK. Which to a certain extent is true. However what you fail to mention is that London only supports the rest of the UK from the earnings of the financial sector. You know, those wicked bankers that everyone wants hung drawn and quartered. You also fail to mention that the EU is hell bent on taxing and over regulating the financial sector into oblivion. So then who will subsidise who? | |||
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"Personally I think that it is No Brainer. We have one chance to take back our great country that our Fathers and Grandparents fought for. We were are a great nation and can survive, no thrive outside of the bureaucratic EU. The EU needs us far more than we need them. Vote to leave, it might be the only chance that you get. " This train of thought is quite frightening especially as the poster is not alone in thinking this. I happen to believe that Britain will vote out and that will consequentially precipitate a total break up of the United Kingdom and all because a vocal percentage of little Englanders simply can't play on equal terms with their European brothers and sisters. I don't particularly look forward to a break up of the United Kingdom and being part of an England that has pulled up the drawbridge, double bolted the doors and looks through the peephole terrified at the actions of foreign people. | |||
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"£55 Million per day is only one of 100's of examples, obviously not the only example, but a bloody good one Just out of interest I live in London. We subsidise the rest of the U.K. by about £40billion a year. About four times more than the net UK payments to the EU. And London will overwhelmingly vote to Remain in the EU. If you vote out, can we have our money back? Oh, and of course, you realise that you will have to pay a significant portion of that money anyway if we come out, IF we want to maintain our trade with the EU. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good story. It is good that British money goes to British people and ridiculous that we waste a load to the EU. To say that the EU will charge us for trade is wrong, they need us far more than we need them and new trade agreements will be easy to draw up if necessary." Who are "they"? You mean people just like you and me who have families and work hard to improve their lives - just like you and I? The EU has a lot wrong with it but the UK should be steering that ship not jumping off it. The way forward in life in general is through closer ties and associations, not breaking them. | |||
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"BTW, just for factual accuracy, we do already protect our own borders. We are not in Schengen, so have complete control to stop, question or refuse entry for anyone to the UK if we have due cause. Good spin but as you well know not really true. Britain does not have "complete" control of its borders. All the Schengen agreement did was to abolish internal borders in favour of one external border. So, for example, we can drive from Germany to Spain via Luxembourg and France without having our papers checked. Britain's opt out only means that that it can check the papers of people entering the country and refuse non EU citizens. The free movement rules are completely separate to Schengen meaning anyone with an EU passport (or just their national ID card) has to be waved through. Currently around 500 million EU citizens have that right. Soon to be increased by 75 million Turks. " Actually, if you want to be completely accurate, you are right, we don't have total control of our borders. That is because we have a single travel area agreement with Ireland. So, the ONLY entrants to the UK who get 'waved through' are visitors from Ireland. And that is nothing to do with the EU. ALL other entrants to get their passports checked - you obviously haven't been abroad for a while if you think anyone gets 'waved through'. Border control can stop anyone with due cause, as I said. That for me is complete control of our border - except for Ireland of course. As for your Brexit Project Fear. 'Turkey joining the EU soon' is a pretty pathetic tactic. In fact, if you bothered to look it up, the accession of any new member state needs a unanimous vote from all existing members. So Turkey will not be joining unless the democratically elected government of the U.K. (and 27 other member states) says it can. If you think that will be soon, you clearly don't know much about Europe. | |||
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"Not sure how I want to vote about the EU!!!!! On the one hand we need to trade with EU so if we go the companies that export will still have to follow the rules!! But as a HGV driver I want them to take there bloody "Working Time Directive" & shove it up there bottoms!!!!!! Does the working time directive limit the amount of hours you drive? If so, I'm in favour of it as to minimise the number of drivers who crash through being over tired. Many corporations request their employers to sign out of the working time directive As drivers we can't sign out!!!! EU rules say we can't !! It's a damn nightmare if we work 60 hrs we have to off set 12 hrs as breaks & POA & at times it's a struggle ... " you personally may feel ok and be safe when driving over 60 hrs per week others will be less so and if the rules are changed you now yourself that there will be some who will put themselves and others at risk by driving a stupid amount.. | |||
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"To say that the EU will charge us for trade is wrong, they need us far more than we need them and new trade agreements will be easy to draw up if necessary." Where do you get this rubbish from? So about 10% of EU trade is with the UK. Just under 50% of UK trade is with the EU. The EU's economy, if we left, would be over five times the size of ours. Tell me how 'they need us more than we need them' isn't just an outright lie? Oh and if we decide to leave, I hope you understand that we are NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO BE IN THE NEGOTIATION on the deal we are offered? Did you get that - we are not even allowed 'in the room'. And that deal will have to be approved by 27 EU governments, only two of whom have a trade surplus with us (Germany and Spain if you want to check). Open Europe did a 'war game' of the exit negotiations. Obviously not the actual people who would participate, so maybe of limited relevance, but I well remember the Irish delegate saying 'of course we are going to screw the UK. You are absolutely screwing us by leaving'. Glad you think that new trade agreements can be drawn up within a few minutes of leaving. Experienced trade negotiators beg to differ. I'm sure you are right though. | |||
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"Not sure how I want to vote about the EU!!!!! On the one hand we need to trade with EU so if we go the companies that export will still have to follow the rules!! But as a HGV driver I want them to take there bloody "Working Time Directive" & shove it up there bottoms!!!!!! Does the working time directive limit the amount of hours you drive? If so, I'm in favour of it as to minimise the number of drivers who crash through being over tired. Many corporations request their employers to sign out of the working time directive As drivers we can't sign out!!!! EU rules say we can't !! It's a damn nightmare if we work 60 hrs we have to off set 12 hrs as breaks & POA & at times it's a struggle ... " I'm a sit on the fence at the moment so no real bias, but sorry there are too many cases of death by tired drivers, I totally agree with that law and maybe you should speak to relatives of people killed and see if you think it's a nightmare | |||
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"You quote that London supports the rest of the UK. Which to a certain extent is true. However what you fail to mention is that London only supports the rest of the UK from the earnings of the financial sector. You know, those wicked bankers that everyone wants hung drawn and quartered. You also fail to mention that the EU is hell bent on taxing and over regulating the financial sector into oblivion. So then who will subsidise who?" Well, no, it's not just the Financial Sector at all. But if I accepted the premise of your comments: 1) I'm no fan of the finance sector and honestly I am embarrassed, after what happened upto 2008, that the UK government is trying to stop better regulation (or what you would call 'over regulation') of an industry that has caused so much harm whilst the EU seems to be much more of a 'voice of reason'. That said: 2) Actually, I'm not the one who has the problem with paying to be part of something bigger. Brexiters are though. As they keep on saying. Without end. Living in London, a London that is very pro-EU, I'm just pointing out that much of the UK is the recipient of vast sums of money from London. It strikes me as a pretty hypocritical from Brexiters that they resent paying the money to be in the EU but have no problems getting many times more money from London being in the UK. Personally, if we Brexit, I'd support London's independence from the rest of the UK (actually, England as Scotland would already be leaving) so we can keep our money and stay in the EU. | |||
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"Personally I think that it is No Brainer. We have one chance to take back our great country that our Fathers and Grandparents fought for. We were are a great nation and can survive, no thrive outside of the bureaucratic EU. The EU needs us far more than we need them. Vote to leave, it might be the only chance that you get. " My apologies that this content is also posted in response to someone else making this same ridiculous comment. About 10% of EU trade is with the UK. Just under 50% of UK trade is with the EU. The EU's economy, if we left, would be over five times the size of ours. Tell me how 'they need us more than we need them' isn't just an outright lie? By the way, my Father fought for this country. He supports Remain. Please don't presume to speak for him! | |||
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"Personally I think that it is No Brainer. We have one chance to take back our great country that our Fathers and Grandparents fought for. We were are a great nation and can survive, no thrive outside of the bureaucratic EU. The EU needs us far more than we need them. Vote to leave, it might be the only chance that you get. My apologies that this content is also posted in response to someone else making this same ridiculous comment. About 10% of EU trade is with the UK. Just under 50% of UK trade is with the EU. The EU's economy, if we left, would be over five times the size of ours. Tell me how 'they need us more than we need them' isn't just an outright lie? By the way, my Father fought for this country. He supports Remain. Please don't presume to speak for him! " excellent point. I think the question the UK should ask its people is either fully commit to the eu as in join the euro if you stay or leave altogether and sever ties. At the moment the UK is only kinda in. I'd love for Ireland to leave the eu and go back to our own currency the punt which was index linked to sterling and get our sovereignty back and stop been ruled by brussels | |||
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"Personally I think that it is No Brainer. We have one chance to take back our great country that our Fathers and Grandparents fought for. We were are a great nation and can survive, no thrive outside of the bureaucratic EU. The EU needs us far more than we need them. Vote to leave, it might be the only chance that you get. My apologies that this content is also posted in response to someone else making this same ridiculous comment. About 10% of EU trade is with the UK. Just under 50% of UK trade is with the EU. The EU's economy, if we left, would be over five times the size of ours. Tell me how 'they need us more than we need them' isn't just an outright lie? By the way, my Father fought for this country. He supports Remain. Please don't presume to speak for him! " Please congratulate your Father on reaching what must be his 100+ birthday and being one of only a handful left. | |||
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"Personally I think that it is No Brainer. We have one chance to take back our great country that our Fathers and Grandparents fought for. We were are a great nation and can survive, no thrive outside of the bureaucratic EU. The EU needs us far more than we need them. Vote to leave, it might be the only chance that you get. My apologies that this content is also posted in response to someone else making this same ridiculous comment. About 10% of EU trade is with the UK. Just under 50% of UK trade is with the EU. The EU's economy, if we left, would be over five times the size of ours. Tell me how 'they need us more than we need them' isn't just an outright lie? By the way, my Father fought for this country. He supports Remain. Please don't presume to speak for him! Please congratulate your Father on reaching what must be his 100+ birthday and being one of only a handful left. " Oopsie, you forgot about all the other wars! | |||
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"Personally I think that it is No Brainer. We have one chance to take back our great country that our Fathers and Grandparents fought for. We were are a great nation and can survive, no thrive outside of the bureaucratic EU. The EU needs us far more than we need them. Vote to leave, it might be the only chance that you get. My apologies that this content is also posted in response to someone else making this same ridiculous comment. About 10% of EU trade is with the UK. Just under 50% of UK trade is with the EU. The EU's economy, if we left, would be over five times the size of ours. Tell me how 'they need us more than we need them' isn't an outright lie? By the way, my Father fought for this country. He supports Remain. Please don't presume to speak for him! " It's. A no brainer I'm voting to remain in | |||
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"The "stayers" seem to have gone very quiet. "Well, once you plow through all the bombast and cut and paste regurgitation of the supposed ills of the European,you wonder - what are they not talking about? The fact that it took the EU to kick Microsoft and Google out of their monopolistic practices? The clean beaches and drinking water laws "foisted" on a population who liked getting slowly poisoned? The very cheap mobile and broadband costs compared to the US? And - if the UK leaves the group that will gain the most will be the 0.1% Murdock and his buddies, the EU doesn't listen to their tune. We have a real democratic deficit in this country. I don't like ukip but they should have 80 MPs Leaving the EU won't fix that or the other things like immigration or housing it's a big distraction that will cause massive disruption while the real thieves the 0.1% continue to fleece us. | |||
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"Personally I think that it is No Brainer. We have one chance to take back our great country that our Fathers and Grandparents fought for. We were are a great nation and can survive, no thrive outside of the bureaucratic EU. The EU needs us far more than we need them. Vote to leave, it might be the only chance that you get. My apologies that this content is also posted in response to someone else making this same ridiculous comment. About 10% of EU trade is with the UK. Just under 50% of UK trade is with the EU. The EU's economy, if we left, would be over five times the size of ours. Tell me how 'they need us more than we need them' isn't just an outright lie? By the way, my Father fought for this country. He supports Remain. Please don't presume to speak for him! Please congratulate your Father on reaching what must be his 100+ birthday and being one of only a handful left. " There are people on here who fought in the Falklands and are no where near 100 | |||
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"TRADE There are reams of unnecessary red tape in the form of EU laws, such as the Working Time Directive, Agency Workers Directive and related excessive Health & Safety and Employment legislation " OK. You make your position clear. You don't want legislation that protects workers rights, gives them mandated holiday entitlements, nor legislation that protects workers health and safety at work. That's fine, your politics shines though. I don't share your politics. " which bear most heavily on small businesses, the life blood of jobs and the economy, which as cost the British economy many more jobs." Doesn't make sense, but anyway I believe that people's rights should be protected whether they work for a large company, just as much as for a small company. As a hyperthetical example, I see no reason why someone working in a small company shouldn't get a legal holiday entitlement (introduced by EU legislation). My appropriate and sensible regulation is obviously your 'over regulation and red tape'. " Major plants producing steel, aluminum, chemicals and electrical power are being hamstrung by the implementation of excessive and unrealistic emissions targets" Actually, necessary and completely realistic targets. Actually targets that are nowhere near tough enough...but don't worry, you won't suffer if we don't introduce then. Your kids will though. And of course, this is a classic reason TO BE IN THE EU, because if we weren't in the world's largest single market, no European country would sign up to environmental protection, as it would hurt there competitive position against other European countries. " Britain is prevented by the EU State Aid provisions from for example, spending British tax payers money saving a car industry (the EU prevented the UK saving Rover) or more post offices or the Royal Mail or helping a bank to survive." As a part owner of Lloyds Bank and RBS, I won't even bother with this one "EU procurement rules require large contracts to be advertised EU journal which enables foreign contractors to bid for and win contracts that could have gone to British companies thereby reducing our Corporation Tax receipts and increasing our numbers of unemployed" Wow. Who wrote this rubbish? You should quote your references. It would be a laugh to read more. So, EU 101. The EU is a single market worth about $18 trillion. Publishing contracts in the EU Journal allows UK companies to access a market of opportunities about 5 times bigger than the UK "The ‘Golden Shares’ in major privatised UK companies which prevented them from being sold overseas were banned under EU rules (except for defence companies) causing many important British companies running British infrastructure have been sold to foreign companies." And of course it's nothing to do with the U.K. Governments privatisation agenda, selling many of our 'important companies' to the highest bidder. Funny that this never happened in France. " Britain now has an ‘empty chair’ at the World Trade Organisation (WTO), where we are a member but cannot do any of our own trade deals, as we have surrendered to the EU the power to negotiate all trade deals on our behalf. The EU is at heart more protectionist and interventionist than the UK and we are unable to negotiate trade agreements with other nations, including emerging economies such as Brazil and China and 13 of the fastest growing world economies in the Commonwealth which would provide more free trade and be better tailored to the needs of the British economy and our exports. " Tell you what, go and add up the GDP of all Commonwealth countries and you'll find that it's smaller than the current EU. And, by the way, who in the Commonwealth has been after a deal with the UK. Canada and a number of other countries have said they would PREFER to do a trade deal with the EU than with an independent UK. "The EU’s semi-imperialist ‘Economic Partnerships Agreements’ (EPA’s) have drawn withering criticism from developing nations particularly in Africa and " Yes, I don't like them either. " We are no longer able to set up our own trade agreements with the countries of the Commonwealth which will go from strength to strength. Currently, the Commonwealth numbers nearly 2 billion people and includes 13 of the world’s fastest growing economies. " And combined still a smaller than the EU "By 2015, the Indian middle class alone will number a staggering 267 million people. Indeed, leading economist Willem Buiter of City Group predicts that India will supplant China to become the world’s biggest economy in 2050. Because of our EU membership, we are unable to seek far more advantageous globalised visions, for example, to pursue the concept of a Commonwealth Free Trade Area." And in 2050, there will be four enormous trading blocks - China, India, the US and the EU - all at least 5 times our size. Outside the EU we would be a middle ranking economic power Extracted from the book The Ultimate Plan B by David Campbell Bannerman MEP " BMW’s mistaken intervention The German-based BMW group, which ownes Mini and Rolls Royce, has recently intervened in the EU referendum debate. Last week, the CEO of Rolls Royce, Torsten Muller-Otvos, sent a letter to BMW employees on Britain’s EU referendum. It stated that:- “Free trade is important for international business. Rolls-Royce Motor Cars exports motor cars throughout the EU and imports a significant number of parts through the region. For BMW Group, more than half of MINIs built and virtually all the engines and components made in the UK are exported to the EU, with over 150,000 new cars and many hundreds of thousands of parts imported from Europe each year. Tariff barriers would mean higher costs and higher prices and we cannot assume that the UK would be granted free trade with Europe from outside the EU.“ Of course, the letter did not mention that if the UK was to exit the EU and to maintain access to the SIngle Market by re-joining EFTA, there would be no tariffs and thus no effect on prices. " But if we rejoin EFTA, we would have to accept free movement of people and have to pay towards the EU budget, but without having a seat at the table when EU decisions are made " But then, would you expect this option to be encouraged by a company committed to EU membership? The letter was quite explicit about this:- “The BMW Group and Rolls-Royce Motor Cars believe that the UK is better as a member of the EU than it would be outside it.” The worst part of the letter concerns the subject of regulation:- “When it comes to regulation, whether the UK remains inside the EU or leaves it, with Europe as the UK’s largest export market by far, we would have to abide by European rules and regulations in any case. We believe it’s much better to be sat at the table when regulations are set and have a hand in their creation, rather than simply having to accept them.” It is hard to believe that Torsten Muller-Otvos is unaware that regulations governing motor vehicles are no longer made by the EU. The Transport Division of UNECE, the United Nations Economic Committe for Europe, based in Geneva, provides secretariat services to the World Forum for Harmonisation of Vehicle Regulations (WP.29), and has been doing so for more than 50 years. " It is truly shocking that anyone has written this. The writer really thinks the Head of BMW UK doesn't know about vehicle regulation in the EU?The the writer knows more than a senior business professional? European vehicle regulations are European. End of story. UNECE have been trying (for 50 years) to harmonise regulations between N America, Europe and Japan. But today we do not have harmonised world regulations - which is the reason that you can't buy most American cars in the EU! Torsten is correct, the author talking out of his bum. This propaganda is so one sided and misrepresentative of the facts that it's really not worth even dignifying the rest of it. | |||
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"249 as they lied about 1 The government and the Romainians, oh err sorry the Remainians, put together a list of British generals which they released to the press to say we'd be better off staying in. Only one of those generals then came out to say he never gave consent for his name to be put on the list, he'd never been asked and he didn't know anything about it prior to the list being released. The government and the Remainians lied deliberately trying to mislead the British public, the general who said he didn't know anything about the list said he was actually in favour of Brexit. " Is that noise I hear you scraping the bottom of the barrel? | |||
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"By the way, my Father fought for this country. He supports Remain. Please don't presume to speak for him! Please congratulate your Father on reaching what must be his 100+ birthday and being one of only a handful left. " He is 93, coming up to his 94th birthday. He fought with the RAF. I don't know how many WW2 veterans are still alive. I'll defer to your better knowledge that it's only a handful. Obviously you are an expert on this subject too. | |||
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"Nope. Still can't think of or have read one good reason for staying in. " Perhaps this will persuade you: The Ukip-backed campaign to pull Britain out of the EU has recruited EU migrants to staff its call centre despite telling voters such low-skilled workers “deprive British citizens of jobs”. Leave.EU employs four phone bank staff from EU countries including Slovakia. Their job is to rally voters across the UK to back Brexit. The appointments come despite Leave.EU claiming that “as the world’s fifth biggest economy, the UK is well placed to supply its own labour”. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/27/ukip-backed-leave-eu-brexit-campaign-employs-eu-migrants-arron-banks | |||
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"Nope. Still can't think of or have read one good reason for staying in. Perhaps this will persuade you: The Ukip-backed campaign to pull Britain out of the EU has recruited EU migrants to staff its call centre despite telling voters such low-skilled workers “deprive British citizens of jobs”. Leave.EU employs four phone bank staff from EU countries including Slovakia. Their job is to rally voters across the UK to back Brexit. The appointments come despite Leave.EU claiming that “as the world’s fifth biggest economy, the UK is well placed to supply its own labour”. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/27/ukip-backed-leave-eu-brexit-campaign-employs-eu-migrants-arron-banks " We have employment laws the UK that mean that you cannot actively employ only people from a certain group.... i.e. you could not advertise jobs to 'British only', nor pursue this policy at interview and selection. I take it the EU staff trying to persuade voters to back brexit support brexit themselves then? | |||
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"BTW, just for factual accuracy, we do already protect our own borders. We are not in Schengen, so have complete control to stop, question or refuse entry for anyone to the UK if we have due cause. Good spin but as you well know not really true. Britain does not have "complete" control of its borders. All the Schengen agreement did was to abolish internal borders in favour of one external border. So, for example, we can drive from Germany to Spain via Luxembourg and France without having our papers checked. Britain's opt out only means that that it can check the papers of people entering the country and refuse non EU citizens. The free movement rules are completely separate to Schengen meaning anyone with an EU passport (or just their national ID card) has to be waved through. Currently around 500 million EU citizens have that right. Soon to be increased by 75 million Turks. Actually, if you want to be completely accurate, you are right, we don't have total control of our borders. That is because we have a single travel area agreement with Ireland. So, the ONLY entrants to the UK who get 'waved through' are visitors from Ireland. And that is nothing to do with the EU. ALL other entrants to get their passports checked - you obviously haven't been abroad for a while if you think anyone gets 'waved through'. Border control can stop anyone with due cause, as I said. That for me is complete control of our border - except for Ireland of course. As for your Brexit Project Fear. 'Turkey joining the EU soon' is a pretty pathetic tactic. In fact, if you bothered to look it up, the accession of any new member state needs a unanimous vote from all existing members. So Turkey will not be joining unless the democratically elected government of the U.K. (and 27 other member states) says it can. If you think that will be soon, you clearly don't know much about Europe." "You haven't been abroad for a while" you say LOL I'm sat in Germany writing this (clue in profile) But little personal digs seem to be quite a trait of yours (hmmm why do you remind me of someone else on here?) Anyway your little half truth about border control then chucking Ireland in as a red herring has nothing to do with the reality. You say Britain can stop anyone at the border with "due cause" and yes in theory serious criminals and terrorists on watch lists can be stopped, but no-one else who holds an EU passport or ID card. After saying that it didn't seem to hinder the Paris/Brussels gang popping over to London and Birmingham to case a football stadium or two recently did it?. The whole truth and reality is that Britain is forced under EU freedom of movement laws to admit all EU citizens unless they show up on a watch list (and that is very few). Most if not all don't even need a passport, their national ID card will do. That is not "complete control" by any stretch of the imagination. As for Turkey joining the EU. At the moment the rules are pretty much as you say. However the new deal with Turkey (as well as bunging them billions of Euro's) will allow 70 odd million Turks visa free travel to the EU from this summer, and Turkey's EU membership will be "fast tracked" whatever that means. Remember also that the EU has got serious form for tearing up the rule book if and when it suits them. Irish and French referendums anyone? And don't even get me on the Greeks and the Euro. | |||
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" Please congratulate your Father on reaching what must be his 100+ birthday and being one of only a handful left. There are people on here who fought in the Falklands and are no where near 100" The Falklands had nowt to do with the EU, it was to re-capture the Islands from the Argentines who invaded them. I doubt the previous posters father fought there given that he is in his 90's! | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked!" To be fair they do check my UK passport and Mrs German ID card on a computer as they seem to do for everyone else. However that isn't really the issue. They are only checking against terrorist or wanted criminal lists and that is pretty much the only "due cause" they can use to stop any EU citizen entering the country. For example a Spanish burglar just released from prison would be allowed in, as would a time served German fraudster, French car thief Etc. Etc. They just wouldn't show up on any watch list so if they hold the right piece of paper then they are in. That is EU freedom of movement law and inside the EU Britain can do sod all about it. | |||
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""You haven't been abroad for a while" you say LOL I'm sat in Germany writing this (clue in profile) But little personal digs seem to be quite a trait of yours " I know you won't believe this, but I try very hard to challenge an argument rather than a person. So you are sitting in Germany. Great. Your OP states that EU citizens 'just get waived through' at UK border. Anyone who has entered the UK knows this is just an absolute lie. No half truth. It's just an absolute lie. Nobody just gets waved through. And if you hVe travelled through UK border, as you imply, then you MUST know that. Which makes you...... So I could just have called you a lier or a deliberate lier. You probably deserve it. But I didn't because I try to be polite in spite of a stream of lies, half truths and factless and opinionated rubbish that gets posted on here about the EU. Little personal digs seems quite reserved compared to what you some might think you probably deserve. "(hmmm why do you remind me of someone else on here?)" I couldn't tell you. You'll have to answer that one yourself. " Anyway your little half truth about border control then chucking Ireland in as a red herring has nothing to do with the reality." It's really difficult to hold the personal digs when you believe that the UK actually having an open border with Ireland by bilateral agreement between the two countries (nothing to do with the EU) but NOT having an open border with the EU is a red herring which has nothing to do with reality. I think you must be talking about a personal reality that you've made up for yourself. Maybe. " You say Britain can stop anyone at the border with "due cause" and yes in theory serious criminals and terrorists on watch lists can be stopped, but no-one else who holds an EU passport or ID card. " That's a yes then. In fact, exactly the same border control as for for example a Canadian entering the UK. The difference is that the Canadian has no right to live or work, an EU citizen does. "After saying that it didn't seem to hinder the Paris/Brussels gang popping over to London and Birmingham to case a football stadium or two recently did it?." That is a complete UKIP /Daily Mail headline irrelevance. The relevant question is what border control would have stopped two obstentially innocent Muslims entering the UK from anywhere in the world where we allow visaless travel. The sad thing for people like me is that we imagine what you might want it to look like - and in the imagination is doesn't look nice for anyone not white or British. "The whole truth and reality is that Britain is forced " actually the UK's democratically elected government has chosen to " under EU freedom of movement laws to admit all EU citizens unless they show up on a watch list (and that is very few)." in the same way as we do with visaless travel for people from most countries in the world " Most if not all don't even need a passport, their national ID card will do. " That is true, but just how does someone getting a passport make them more 'acceptable' to you than someone who has a national identity card? "That is not "complete control" by any stretch of the imagination." Shall we agree to disagree then "As for Turkey joining the EU. At the moment the rules are pretty much as you say. However the new deal with Turkey (as well as bunging them billions of Euro's) will allow 70 odd million Turks visa free travel to the EU from this summer, " Turkey will get visa free travel in tha same way as say Canada, Japan and Malaysia already do. Your point is? " and Turkey's EU membership will be "fast tracked" whatever that means. Remember also that the EU has got serious form for tearing up the rule book if and when it suits them. Irish and French referendums anyone? " More ranting? Just how are national decisions made by the democratically elected governments of Ireland and France about when and how to hold domestic referenda a demonstration of the EU ripping up their rule book? BTW, I honestly have no issue how anyone chooses to vote in this referendum. But I believe they should vote at least having seen the facts from both side and having listened to some reasoned arguments from both side. Not just by being bombarded by lies and factless bias disguised as the truth by one side of the debate. | |||
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" Please congratulate your Father on reaching what must be his 100+ birthday and being one of only a handful left. There are people on here who fought in the Falklands and are no where near 100 The Falklands had nowt to do with the EU, it was to re-capture the Islands from the Argentines who invaded them. I doubt the previous posters father fought there given that he is in his 90's! " And what has WW2 got to do with the EU, other than one of the main tenets of it's existence is to stop such European wars happening again ? I'm sure many fathers and grandfathers would have fought for precisely such a thing. | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked! To be fair they do check my UK passport and Mrs German ID card on a computer as they seem to do for everyone else. However that isn't really the issue. They are only checking against terrorist or wanted criminal lists and that is pretty much the only "due cause" they can use to stop any EU citizen entering the country. For example a Spanish burglar just released from prison would be allowed in, as would a time served German fraudster, French car thief Etc. Etc. They just wouldn't show up on any watch list so if they hold the right piece of paper then they are in. That is EU freedom of movement law and inside the EU Britain can do sod all about it." Just as a Candian frauster or Malaysian car thief would be allowed in under visa free travel. They wouldn't show up on any watch list. If they hold the right piece of paper? You mean a passport right? By the way, serious question, do you believe that any Briton who has ever been to prison and has 'served their time' should be banned by every foreign country from ever entering their country ever again? If the answer is no, explain the difference please. | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked!" Actually both in the last three months. EVERYONE is checked. Do you have some magic way to sneak round the back to avoid passport control? | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked! To be fair they do check my UK passport and Mrs German ID card on a computer as they seem to do for everyone else. However that isn't really the issue. They are only checking against terrorist or wanted criminal lists and that is pretty much the only "due cause" they can use to stop any EU citizen entering the country. For example a Spanish burglar just released from prison would be allowed in, as would a time served German fraudster, French car thief Etc. Etc. They just wouldn't show up on any watch list so if they hold the right piece of paper then they are in. That is EU freedom of movement law and inside the EU Britain can do sod all about it." Everyone has their passport checked and there are a large number of non EU passport holders who qualify for reciprocal visa free travel to/from various countries. They too have their passports checked. The U.K. Will not suddenly require visa's for every country in the world - it would be disastrous. Not much will change in respect of passport checking, in or out of the EU. | |||
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"Leaving the EU to us is not rocket science and the "In" people slagging off the "Out" people is wrong and vice versa." As is presuming to speak for any of their parents! I do agree though. Give me some handy tips on what you say to someone who lies - other than 'you are a liar' | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked! To be fair they do check my UK passport and Mrs German ID card on a computer as they seem to do for everyone else. However that isn't really the issue. They are only checking against terrorist or wanted criminal lists and that is pretty much the only "due cause" they can use to stop any EU citizen entering the country. For example a Spanish burglar just released from prison would be allowed in, as would a time served German fraudster, French car thief Etc. Etc. They just wouldn't show up on any watch list so if they hold the right piece of paper then they are in. That is EU freedom of movement law and inside the EU Britain can do sod all about it. Just as a Candian frauster or Malaysian car thief would be allowed in under visa free travel. They wouldn't show up on any watch list. If they hold the right piece of paper? You mean a passport right? By the way, serious question, do you believe that any Briton who has ever been to prison and has 'served their time' should be banned by every foreign country from ever entering their country ever again? If the answer is no, explain the difference please." Everything I have posted is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water, and throw in red herrings as much as you like. You are still WRONG! | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked! To be fair they do check my UK passport and Mrs German ID card on a computer as they seem to do for everyone else. However that isn't really the issue. They are only checking against terrorist or wanted criminal lists and that is pretty much the only "due cause" they can use to stop any EU citizen entering the country. For example a Spanish burglar just released from prison would be allowed in, as would a time served German fraudster, French car thief Etc. Etc. They just wouldn't show up on any watch list so if they hold the right piece of paper then they are in. That is EU freedom of movement law and inside the EU Britain can do sod all about it. Just as a Candian frauster or Malaysian car thief would be allowed in under visa free travel. They wouldn't show up on any watch list. If they hold the right piece of paper? You mean a passport right? By the way, serious question, do you believe that any Briton who has ever been to prison and has 'served their time' should be banned by every foreign country from ever entering their country ever again? If the answer is no, explain the difference please. Everything I have posted is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water, and throw in red herrings as much as you like. You are still WRONG!" ....except the lie that EU nationals 'just get waved through' border control which started this exchange and which you subsequently admitted yourself was a lie - even though you were sitting in Germany.
That said (guess what)....everything I have posted on here is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water and throw in red herrings as much as YOU like....but you are still wrong.
But at least the good members of FAB can now see that you cherry pick facts to support some incorrect assertions and they at least have two sides of the argument so that they can make their own opinion on whose 'facts' are more accurate and appropriate.
Which must be a good thing for democracy. | |||
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" And what has WW2 got to do with the EU, other than one of the main tenets of it's existence is to stop such European wars happening again ? I'm sure many fathers and grandfathers would have fought for precisely such a thing." WW2 was fought to prevent the German's from ruling Europe. They were prevented from doing it back in 1945, but are doing it very well now thank you in peacetime. The EU will end in tears, let the UK see it first and take this opportunity to get out. Only my opinion of course! | |||
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"Kittie4u, I think the only person you are trying to convince on these threads is yourself. Your posts are quite amusing "Kittie4u is correct, we have been waved through on our most recent trips - could have been absolutely anyone! | |||
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"Kittie4u, I think the only person you are trying to convince on these threads is yourself. Your posts are quite amusing "Well, I'm happy you are amused. We should all try to spread a little more joy in the world, don't you think? I have clearly succeeded with you! I'm really not trying to convince anybody. I trust that people are intelligent and I know they will make up their own minds. You might be different, but personally I don't like lies, I don't like people making sweeping and inaccurate statements in an attempt to support their position, I don't like people cherry picking facts to support a fabricated distortion, I don't like ad hominem attacks. It is a shame some on the Brexit side keep me so busy. I only post facts, generally to counter a distortion. You can go check - though I'm sure you can find an exception. None of us are perfect (and neither is the EU!) It's only intended to counter some of the obvious rubbish posted here and (hopefully) to help some of us Think a little. As someone once said, there are few complex issues that simplistic answers won't make worse. Still, if you have already closed your mind then you can continue to be amused. I hope you are enjoying your holiday! | |||
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" And what has WW2 got to do with the EU, other than one of the main tenets of it's existence is to stop such European wars happening again ? I'm sure many fathers and grandfathers would have fought for precisely such a thing. WW2 was fought to prevent the German's from ruling Europe. They were prevented from doing it back in 1945, but are doing it very well now thank you in peacetime. The EU will end in tears, let the UK see it first and take this opportunity to get out. Only my opinion of course! " Actually, my Dad thought he was fighting to stop Hitler and Nazism controlling Europe. | |||
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" And what has WW2 got to do with the EU, other than one of the main tenets of it's existence is to stop such European wars happening again ? I'm sure many fathers and grandfathers would have fought for precisely such a thing. WW2 was fought to prevent the German's from ruling Europe. They were prevented from doing it back in 1945, but are doing it very well now thank you in peacetime. The EU will end in tears, let the UK see it first and take this opportunity to get out. Only my opinion of course! " | |||
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"Kittie4u, I think the only person you are trying to convince on these threads is yourself. Your posts are quite amusing
Kittie4u is correct, we have been waved through on our most recent trips - could have been absolutely anyone!"Think you will find that _ittie4u said that doesn't happen  | |||
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" Actually, my Dad thought he was fighting to stop Hitler and Nazism controlling Europe. " Mine to, he was with the first regiment in to Berlin. Now we just need to stop the current German Chancellor Merkel, hopefully in a peaceful way by voting out in the forthcoming referendum! | |||
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"Kittie4u, I think the only person you are trying to convince on these threads is yourself. Your posts are quite amusing
Kittie4u is correct, we have been waved through on our most recent trips - could have been absolutely anyone!
Think you will find that _ittie4u said that doesn't happen "Apologies, my mistake - doh!  | |||
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" WW2 was fought to prevent the German's from ruling Europe. They were prevented from doing it back in 1945, but are doing it very well now thank you in peacetime. " And Just out of interest, if someone had lain down their life to stop a powerful Germany controlling a continental European economic bloc whilst the UK was left on the sidelines (perhaps realising that it would be a disaster for the UK) how do you think they would vote on the UK leaving the EU to allow a powerful Germany to control a continental European single market whilst the UK was left on the sidelines? No need to answer. I'm sure our opinions differ. | |||
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" Actually, my Dad thought he was fighting to stop Hitler and Nazism controlling Europe. Mine to, he was with the first regiment in to Berlin. Now we just need to stop the current German Chancellor Merkel, hopefully in a peaceful way by voting out in the forthcoming referendum!" That would have been with the 7th Armoured Division then. I assume from previous posts you've made that he has now sadly passed away, but I have tremendous respect for what he achieved and what he must have gone through. I have to say though that your second paragraph is a non sequitur....how exactly does voting for the UK to leave the EU stop Angela Merkel controlling Europe? | |||
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" We have employment laws the UK that mean that you cannot actively employ only people from a certain group.... i.e. you could not advertise jobs to 'British only', nor pursue this policy at interview and selection. I take it the EU staff trying to persuade voters to back brexit support brexit themselves then?" very good point.... 1 problem with it though..... they didn't have to actively put the adverts for jobs in the actual country.... oopsie thats a bit like like saying a job in newcastle has to be advertising in a paper or job centre in bulgaria......... | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked! To be fair they do check my UK passport and Mrs German ID card on a computer as they seem to do for everyone else. However that isn't really the issue. They are only checking against terrorist or wanted criminal lists and that is pretty much the only "due cause" they can use to stop any EU citizen entering the country. For example a Spanish burglar just released from prison would be allowed in, as would a time served German fraudster, French car thief Etc. Etc. They just wouldn't show up on any watch list so if they hold the right piece of paper then they are in. That is EU freedom of movement law and inside the EU Britain can do sod all about it. Just as a Candian frauster or Malaysian car thief would be allowed in under visa free travel. They wouldn't show up on any watch list. If they hold the right piece of paper? You mean a passport right? By the way, serious question, do you believe that any Briton who has ever been to prison and has 'served their time' should be banned by every foreign country from ever entering their country ever again? If the answer is no, explain the difference please. Everything I have posted is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water, and throw in red herrings as much as you like. You are still WRONG! ....except the lie that EU nationals 'just get waved through' border control which started this exchange and which you subsequently admitted yourself was a lie - even though you were sitting in Germany.
That said (guess what)....everything I have posted on here is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water and throw in red herrings as much as YOU like....but you are still wrong.
But at least the good members of FAB can now see that you cherry pick facts to support some incorrect assertions and they at least have two sides of the argument so that they can make their own opinion on whose 'facts' are more accurate and appropriate.
Which must be a good thing for democracy."Jeez you sound like bloody Goebells. Tell the lie so many times it becomes the truth. How many more times do I have to tell you? OK one last try, and I will try to keep it as simple as possible for you. EU citizens are only checked against a terrorist and wanted criminal list. OK have you got that bit? Right then I will move on. If they are not on that list (which 99.99 and god knows how many more 9's % are not) then they are waved through. That is nothing to do with any agreement with Ireland, Greenland or the Turks and bloody Caicos islands. Pure and simple it is EU law. Are you keeping up? Good then I'll move on As for Canadians, Japanese, Americans or citizens of the lost city of Atlantis. They have to travel on a full passport which has an entry visa stamped into it. That visa will have an expiry date which is the last day they can stay in the country unless they apply for an extension or claim asylum (I don't think many Canadians have done that recently but hey ho) Also as you said they cannot partake in any form of economic activity (other than shopping) without express permission EU citizens are treated much differently than people from the rest of the world and trying to say different is a big fat lie and you damn well know it. | |||
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"Kittie4u, I think the only person you are trying to convince on these threads is yourself. Your posts are quite amusing
Well, I'm happy you are amused. We should all try to spread a little more joy in the world, don't you think? I have clearly succeeded with you!
I'm really not trying to convince anybody. I trust that people are intelligent and I know they will make up their own minds.
You might be different, but personally I don't like lies, I don't like people making sweeping and inaccurate statements in an attempt to support their position, I don't like people cherry picking facts to support a fabricated distortion, I don't like ad hominem attacks.
It is a shame some on the Brexit side keep me so busy.
I only post facts, generally to counter a distortion. You can go check - though I'm sure you can find an exception. None of us are perfect (and neither is the EU!) It's only intended to counter some of the obvious rubbish posted here and (hopefully) to help some of us Think a little. As someone once said, there are few complex issues that simplistic answers won't make worse.
Still, if you have already closed your mind then you can continue to be amused.
I hope you are enjoying your holiday!
"OK fair play to you, you have convinced me. You are one hell of a comedian | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked! To be fair they do check my UK passport and Mrs German ID card on a computer as they seem to do for everyone else. However that isn't really the issue. They are only checking against terrorist or wanted criminal lists and that is pretty much the only "due cause" they can use to stop any EU citizen entering the country. For example a Spanish burglar just released from prison would be allowed in, as would a time served German fraudster, French car thief Etc. Etc. They just wouldn't show up on any watch list so if they hold the right piece of paper then they are in. That is EU freedom of movement law and inside the EU Britain can do sod all about it. Just as a Candian frauster or Malaysian car thief would be allowed in under visa free travel. They wouldn't show up on any watch list. If they hold the right piece of paper? You mean a passport right? By the way, serious question, do you believe that any Briton who has ever been to prison and has 'served their time' should be banned by every foreign country from ever entering their country ever again? If the answer is no, explain the difference please. Everything I have posted is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water, and throw in red herrings as much as you like. You are still WRONG! ....except the lie that EU nationals 'just get waved through' border control which started this exchange and which you subsequently admitted yourself was a lie - even though you were sitting in Germany.
That said (guess what)....everything I have posted on here is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water and throw in red herrings as much as YOU like....but you are still wrong.
But at least the good members of FAB can now see that you cherry pick facts to support some incorrect assertions and they at least have two sides of the argument so that they can make their own opinion on whose 'facts' are more accurate and appropriate.
Which must be a good thing for democracy."Where the hell did I admit that anything I said was a lie??????? Is there a ghost thread going on somewhere? Canadians Etc. are treated the same as EU citizens. That is a lie. You told it not me. Your whole contribution to the thread are either lies, half truths, distortions, or diversions. You just cannot face it that EU citizens have to be waved through with only checks on terrorism and wanted criminal lists. That is EU law, not a distortion, not a half truth, not a diversion, or a muddy the water tactic. It's a FACT. | |||
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"We have employment laws the UK that mean that you cannot actively employ only people from a certain group.... i.e. you could not advertise jobs to 'British only', nor pursue this policy at interview and selection. thats a bit like like saying a job in newcastle has to be advertising in a paper or job centre in bulgaria......... "Correct, you can not advertise jobs for British only. That said, I run a company that employs only British people. I need British people who speak perfect English. I sift out any foreigners/unsuitable people at interview. Try and prove that I am discriminating! | |||
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" Mine to, he was with the first regiment in to Berlin. Now we just need to stop the current German Chancellor Merkel, hopefully in a peaceful way by voting out in the forthcoming referendum! That would have been with the 7th Armoured Division then. I assume from previous posts you've made that he has now sadly passed away, but I have tremendous respect for what he achieved and what he must have gone through. I have to say though that your second paragraph is a non sequitur....how exactly does voting for the UK to leave the EU stop Angela Merkel controlling Europe?" Yes my Father passed many years ago and I miss him every day. You are correct, Angela Merkel may still control the EU if we leave, but she will not be controlling us! That said, I think if the UK leaves, many will follow | |||
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" And Just out of interest, if someone had lain down their life to stop a powerful Germany controlling a continental European economic bloc whilst the UK was left on the sidelines (perhaps realising that it would be a disaster for the UK) how do you think they would vote on the UK leaving the EU to allow a powerful Germany to control a continental European single market whilst the UK was left on the sidelines? No need to answer. I'm sure our opinions differ. "Gotcha, so what you are saying is that the World Wars were a waste of time and effort. Thank goodness that my Father has passed. | |||
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" Mine to, he was with the first regiment in to Berlin. Now we just need to stop the current German Chancellor Merkel, hopefully in a peaceful way by voting out in the forthcoming referendum! That would have been with the 7th Armoured Division then. I assume from previous posts you've made that he has now sadly passed away, but I have tremendous respect for what he achieved and what he must have gone through. I have to say though that your second paragraph is a non sequitur....how exactly does voting for the UK to leave the EU stop Angela Merkel controlling Europe? Yes my Father passed many years ago and I miss him every day. You are correct, Angela Merkel may still control the EU if we leave, but she will not be controlling us! That said, I think if the UK leaves, many will follow "Yes I would agree that if the UK is the first to jump then others will follow. Hopefully enough for the whole rotten edifice to collapse. I am not against some form of European union but this version with its ultimate goal of a United States of Europe has to be destroyed. As for Merkel she might as well enjoy herself for the next 18 months in the job because after that she will be out on her ear, if not before. The Germans themselves have well and truly had a belly full of her. | |||
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" And Just out of interest, if someone had lain down their life to stop a powerful Germany controlling a continental European economic bloc whilst the UK was left on the sidelines (perhaps realising that it would be a disaster for the UK) how do you think they would vote on the UK leaving the EU to allow a powerful Germany to control a continental European single market whilst the UK was left on the sidelines? No need to answer. I'm sure our opinions differ.
Gotcha, so what you are saying is that the World Wars were a waste of time and effort. Thank goodness that my Father has passed."This is a very strange way of reading the previous post. That's far from what was said imo. This debate is becoming very black and white, with one side seeming to be entirely unable to accept even minor considerations from the other. It's going to be a long 3 months. | |||
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"Nope. Still can't think of or have read one good reason for staying in. Perhaps this will persuade you: The Ukip-backed campaign to pull Britain out of the EU has recruited EU migrants to staff its call centre despite telling voters such low-skilled workers “deprive British citizens of jobs”. Leave.EU employs four phone bank staff from EU countries including Slovakia. Their job is to rally voters across the UK to back Brexit. The appointments come despite Leave.EU claiming that “as the world’s fifth biggest economy, the UK is well placed to supply its own labour”. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/27/ukip-backed-leave-eu-brexit-campaign-employs-eu-migrants-arron-banks We have employment laws the UK that mean that you cannot actively employ only people from a certain group.... i.e. you could not advertise jobs to 'British only', nor pursue this policy at interview and selection. I take it the EU staff trying to persuade voters to back brexit support brexit themselves then?" You're saying there were no better British candidates? How many unemployed are there? | |||
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"Jeez you sound like bloody Goebells. Tell the lie so many times it becomes the truth. How many more times do I have to tell you? OK one last try, and I will try to keep it as simple as possible for you. EU citizens are only checked against a terrorist and wanted criminal list. OK have you got that bit? Right then I will move on. If they are not on that list (which 99.99 and god knows how many more 9's % are not) then they are waved through." Oh, OK. Thank you! I have got it. When you say 'being waved through' you actually meant that your passport is thoroughly checked - in the same way as it would be for anyone coming from a country we have visa free travel arrangement with. It's visa free travel you have the big issue with then is it? " That is nothing to do with any agreement with Ireland, Greenland or the Turks and bloody Caicos islands. " Well, it is if we have visa free travel arrangements with them obviously. We do with Ireland (existing long before the EU was even an idea); Turks & Caicos of course is British Overseas territory of course. " Are you keeping up? Good then I'll move on As for Canadians, Japanese, Americans or citizens of the lost city of Atlantis. They have to travel on a full passport which has an entry visa stamped into it." NO THEY DON'T. (well, citizen's of the Lost City of Atlantis might. There are no rules existing for them) We have visa free travel arrangement with Canada, the US and Japan. There is a clue in the name - they DON'T NEED A VISA. They just walk in like any EU citizen - unless they state that they plan to live or work here - which of course they do not have the right to do without appropriate visas. Are you keeping up? Good. "That visa will have an expiry date which is the last day they can stay in the country unless they apply for an extension or claim asylum (I don't think many Canadians have done that recently but hey ho) Also as you said they cannot partake in any form of economic activity (other than shopping)" Well no, their passport stamp will have an expiry date - BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED A VISA " EU citizens are treated much differently than people from the rest of the world and trying to say different is a big fat lie and you damn well know it." No it's not a lie. EU citizens have different rights - we all know that. But at the border they are treated pretty much the same as anyone from a country with which we have a visa free travel arrangement - except that they wouldn't be asked if they plan to work or live in the UK, because thy have that right. But suggesting that, because we are in the EU , we have lost control of our border, that people from the EU are not checked or that potential future terrorists can enter the UK only because we are in the EU, when they clearly could come in from any country we have visa free travel with) is wrong. As I said. | |||
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"We have employment laws the UK that mean that you cannot actively employ only people from a certain group.... i.e. you could not advertise jobs to 'British only', nor pursue this policy at interview and selection. thats a bit like like saying a job in newcastle has to be advertising in a paper or job centre in bulgaria.........
Correct, you can not advertise jobs for British only. That said, I run a company that employs only British people. I need British people who speak perfect English. I sift out any foreigners/unsuitable people at interview. Try and prove that I am discriminating! "We don't need to. You just proudly admitted that yourself. | |||
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" Please congratulate your Father on reaching what must be his 100+ birthday and being one of only a handful left. There are people on here who fought in the Falklands and are no where near 100 The Falklands had nowt to do with the EU, it was to re-capture the Islands from the Argentines who invaded them. I doubt the previous posters father fought there given that he is in his 90's! " It had a lot to do with pointing out that you don't have to have been over 100 to fight for Britain, as someone else commented you seem to have forgotten other conflicts have occurred. | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked! To be fair they do check my UK passport and Mrs German ID card on a computer as they seem to do for everyone else. However that isn't really the issue. They are only checking against terrorist or wanted criminal lists and that is pretty much the only "due cause" they can use to stop any EU citizen entering the country. For example a Spanish burglar just released from prison would be allowed in, as would a time served German fraudster, French car thief Etc. Etc. They just wouldn't show up on any watch list so if they hold the right piece of paper then they are in. That is EU freedom of movement law and inside the EU Britain can do sod all about it. Just as a Candian frauster or Malaysian car thief would be allowed in under visa free travel. They wouldn't show up on any watch list. If they hold the right piece of paper? You mean a passport right? By the way, serious question, do you believe that any Briton who has ever been to prison and has 'served their time' should be banned by every foreign country from ever entering their country ever again? If the answer is no, explain the difference please. Everything I have posted is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water, and throw in red herrings as much as you like. You are still WRONG!" Everything you've posted is hard fact? You've given up making up xenophobic stories then, have you? | |||
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"OK fair play to you, you have convinced me. You are one hell of a comedian "Nice that you find the truth so funny. | |||
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"We have employment laws the UK that mean that you cannot actively employ only people from a certain group.... i.e. you could not advertise jobs to 'British only', nor pursue this policy at interview and selection. thats a bit like like saying a job in newcastle has to be advertising in a paper or job centre in bulgaria.........
Correct, you can not advertise jobs for British only. That said, I run a company that employs only British people. I need British people who speak perfect English. I sift out any foreigners/unsuitable people at interview. Try and prove that I am discriminating! "Other than you just admitted to it? | |||
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"Jeez you sound like bloody Goebells. Tell the lie so many times it becomes the truth. How many more times do I have to tell you? OK one last try, and I will try to keep it as simple as possible for you. EU citizens are only checked against a terrorist and wanted criminal list. OK have you got that bit? Right then I will move on. If they are not on that list (which 99.99 and god knows how many more 9's % are not) then they are waved through. Oh, OK. Thank you! I have got it. When you say 'being waved through' you actually meant that your passport is thoroughly checked - in the same way as it would be for anyone coming from a country we have visa free travel arrangement with. It's visa free travel you have the big issue with then is it? That is nothing to do with any agreement with Ireland, Greenland or the Turks and bloody Caicos islands. Well, it is if we have visa free travel arrangements with them obviously. We do with Ireland (existing long before the EU was even an idea); Turks & Caicos of course is British Overseas territory of course. Are you keeping up? Good then I'll move on As for Canadians, Japanese, Americans or citizens of the lost city of Atlantis. They have to travel on a full passport which has an entry visa stamped into it. NO THEY DON'T. (well, citizen's of the Lost City of Atlantis might. There are no rules existing for them) We have visa free travel arrangement with Canada, the US and Japan. There is a clue in the name - they DON'T NEED A VISA. They just walk in like any EU citizen - unless they state that they plan to live or work here - which of course they do not have the right to do without appropriate visas. Are you keeping up? Good. That visa will have an expiry date which is the last day they can stay in the country unless they apply for an extension or claim asylum (I don't think many Canadians have done that recently but hey ho) Also as you said they cannot partake in any form of economic activity (other than shopping) Well no, their passport stamp will have an expiry date - BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED A VISA EU citizens are treated much differently than people from the rest of the world and trying to say different is a big fat lie and you damn well know it. No it's not a lie. EU citizens have different rights - we all know that. But at the border they are treated pretty much the same as anyone from a country with which we have a visa free travel arrangement - except that they wouldn't be asked if they plan to work or live in the UK, because thy have that right. But suggesting that, because we are in the EU , we have lost control of our border, that people from the EU are not checked or that potential future terrorists can enter the UK only because we are in the EU, when they clearly could come in from any country we have visa free travel with) is wrong. As I said. " I think you are confusing (or want to confuse) and entry visa stamp, which I think to anyone who actually read what I said would have understood, with a permission to travel visa that you have to pre apply for. Nice try though, it is keeping the water nice and muddy for you. | |||
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"Where the hell did I admit that anything I said was a lie??????? Is there a ghost thread going on somewhere?" You did it again. You say that EU citizens 'just get waved through' but you admit that your passports (or your wife's ID card) are checked and logged at UK border. Having you passport checked and logged is not 'just waved through' "Canadians Etc. are treated the same as EU citizens. That is a lie. You told it not me." In terms of 'border control'it's not disimliar as they don't need a visa. Yes they will be asked how long they will stay and get a three month entry stamp. There are no clever additional checks like 'are you a car thief' or 'have you committed fraud recently' that UK Border Agency make. "Your whole contribution to the thread are either lies, half truths, distortions, or diversions." D'ya think. " You just cannot face it that EU citizens have to be waved through with only checks on terrorism and wanted criminal lists. That is EU law, not a distortion, not a half truth, not a diversion, or a muddy the water tactic. It's a FACT." So. just to finish off, no I don't believe that EU citized are 'just waved through'. I believe, as you have admitted, that they all get their passport or national ID's checked at the border. Unless they come for Ireland of course....... | |||
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"I think you are confusing (or want to confuse) and entry visa stamp, which I think to anyone who actually read what I said would have understood, with a permission to travel visa that you have to pre apply for. Nice try though, it is keeping the water nice and muddy for you." No,confusion here. Go look at the UK Government website. It says in big bold letters NO VISA REQUIRED FOR CITIZENS OF THE US, CANADA AND JAPAN. They do need an entry stamp but it's not called an entry visa stamp or an entry stamp visa or even a stamp visa enrty - it's just called an entry stamp. Now I know how confused you are, I'll withdraw my comment that you lied. My apologies. You were just confused.
Nice try though. | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked! To be fair they do check my UK passport and Mrs German ID card on a computer as they seem to do for everyone else. However that isn't really the issue. They are only checking against terrorist or wanted criminal lists and that is pretty much the only "due cause" they can use to stop any EU citizen entering the country. For example a Spanish burglar just released from prison would be allowed in, as would a time served German fraudster, French car thief Etc. Etc. They just wouldn't show up on any watch list so if they hold the right piece of paper then they are in. That is EU freedom of movement law and inside the EU Britain can do sod all about it. Just as a Candian frauster or Malaysian car thief would be allowed in under visa free travel. They wouldn't show up on any watch list. If they hold the right piece of paper? You mean a passport right? By the way, serious question, do you believe that any Briton who has ever been to prison and has 'served their time' should be banned by every foreign country from ever entering their country ever again? If the answer is no, explain the difference please. Everything I have posted is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water, and throw in red herrings as much as you like. You are still WRONG! Everything you've posted is hard fact? You've given up making up xenophobic stories then, have you?" Not the slightest bit interested in anything YOU say. | |||
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"Where the hell did I admit that anything I said was a lie??????? Is there a ghost thread going on somewhere? You did it again. You say that EU citizens 'just get waved through' but you admit that your passports (or your wife's ID card) are checked and logged at UK border. Having you passport checked and logged is not 'just waved through' Canadians Etc. are treated the same as EU citizens. That is a lie. You told it not me. In terms of 'border control'it's not disimliar as they don't need a visa. Yes they will be asked how long they will stay and get a three month entry stamp. There are no clever additional checks like 'are you a car thief' or 'have you committed fraud recently' that UK Border Agency make. Your whole contribution to the thread are either lies, half truths, distortions, or diversions. D'ya think. You just cannot face it that EU citizens have to be waved through with only checks on terrorism and wanted criminal lists. That is EU law, not a distortion, not a half truth, not a diversion, or a muddy the water tactic. It's a FACT. So. just to finish off, no I don't believe that EU citized are 'just waved through'. I believe, as you have admitted, that they all get their passport or national ID's checked at the border. Unless they come for Ireland of course....... "OK OK OK I give up. This is like wading through bloody treacle. I lied you lied the man in the bloody moon lied everyone lied. Everyone can come in everyone can't come in, some can come in with blue paper others with toilet paper. Whatever you want. | |||
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"OK OK OK I give up. This is like wading through bloody treacle. I lied you lied the man in the bloody moon lied everyone lied. Everyone can come in everyone can't come in, some can come in with blue paper others with toilet paper. Whatever you want." yeah...except I didn't lie
Have a nice week though and give my regards to Angela, if you see her.
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"OK fair play to you, you have convinced me. You are one hell of a comedian
Nice that you find the truth so funny. "Have you not noticed though that on pretty much all of these EU threads you are helping to put people off the EU? That is what is amusing . Carry on | |||
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" And what has WW2 got to do with the EU, other than one of the main tenets of it's existence is to stop such European wars happening again ? I'm sure many fathers and grandfathers would have fought for precisely such a thing. WW2 was fought to prevent the German's from ruling Europe. They were prevented from doing it back in 1945, but are doing it very well now thank you in peacetime. The EU will end in tears, let the UK see it first and take this opportunity to get out. Only my opinion of course! Actually, my Dad thought he was fighting to stop Hitler and Nazism controlling Europe. " My father fought with the French resistance, behind enemy lines at Dunkirk. He also fought in Finland, and Germany. He, too, fought to stop Hitler and Nazism. And he loathed the idea of anything other than a trading union in Europe... as, in his words, a political and economic union would 'ultimately be controlled by Germany... the very thing I fought against'. Unfortunately, we have a political, economic, and trading union. | |||
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"OK OK OK I give up. This is like wading through bloody treacle. I lied you lied the man in the bloody moon lied everyone lied. Everyone can come in everyone can't come in, some can come in with blue paper others with toilet paper. Whatever you want. yeah...except I didn't lie
Have a nice week though and give my regards to Angela, if you see her.
"Yes you did, you are a liar and a distorter, you will twist turn and divert from the facts to make your opinion seem like the truth. But hey judging from the messages I've received on this subject I think most on here can see right through you. Muddy or not. | |||
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"OK OK OK I give up. This is like wading through bloody treacle. I lied you lied the man in the bloody moon lied everyone lied. Everyone can come in everyone can't come in, some can come in with blue paper others with toilet paper. Whatever you want. yeah...except I didn't lie
Have a nice week though and give my regards to Angela, if you see her.
"Kitti4u... in the interests of the balanced and fair argument you want both sides to put, could you also point out all the lies and fabrication that the remain side have spewed as well please? | |||
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"OK fair play to you, you have convinced me. You are one hell of a comedian
Nice that you find the truth so funny.
Have you not noticed though that on pretty much all of these EU threads you are helping to put people off the EU? That is what is amusing . Carry on "I must admit I was thinking that as well. | |||
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"OK fair play to you, you have convinced me. You are one hell of a comedian
Nice that you find the truth so funny.
Have you not noticed though that on pretty much all of these EU threads you are helping to put people off the EU? That is what is amusing . Carry on
I must admit I was thinking that as well. "I'm gonna vote out just to spite that guy lol | |||
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"OK OK OK I give up. This is like wading through bloody treacle. I lied you lied the man in the bloody moon lied everyone lied. Everyone can come in everyone can't come in, some can come in with blue paper others with toilet paper. Whatever you want. yeah...except I didn't lie
Have a nice week though and give my regards to Angela, if you see her.
Kitti4u... in the interests of the balanced and fair argument you want both sides to put, could you also point out all the lies and fabrication that the remain side have spewed as well please?"I think hell will freeze over first. | |||
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"OK fair play to you, you have convinced me. You are one hell of a comedian
Nice that you find the truth so funny.
Have you not noticed though that on pretty much all of these EU threads you are helping to put people off the EU? That is what is amusing . Carry on
I must admit I was thinking that as well. I'm gonna vote out just to spite that guy lol" | |||
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"Post was to large to quote! I am guessing that you have not entered the UK via an Airport or Sea Port in recent years? No one is checked! To be fair they do check my UK passport and Mrs German ID card on a computer as they seem to do for everyone else. However that isn't really the issue. They are only checking against terrorist or wanted criminal lists and that is pretty much the only "due cause" they can use to stop any EU citizen entering the country. For example a Spanish burglar just released from prison would be allowed in, as would a time served German fraudster, French car thief Etc. Etc. They just wouldn't show up on any watch list so if they hold the right piece of paper then they are in. That is EU freedom of movement law and inside the EU Britain can do sod all about it. Just as a Candian frauster or Malaysian car thief would be allowed in under visa free travel. They wouldn't show up on any watch list. If they hold the right piece of paper? You mean a passport right? By the way, serious question, do you believe that any Briton who has ever been to prison and has 'served their time' should be banned by every foreign country from ever entering their country ever again? If the answer is no, explain the difference please. Everything I have posted is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water, and throw in red herrings as much as you like. You are still WRONG! ....except the lie that EU nationals 'just get waved through' border control which started this exchange and which you subsequently admitted yourself was a lie - even though you were sitting in Germany.
That said (guess what)....everything I have posted on here is hard fact and you can twist, contort, muddy the water and throw in red herrings as much as YOU like....but you are still wrong.
But at least the good members of FAB can now see that you cherry pick facts to support some incorrect assertions and they at least have two sides of the argument so that they can make their own opinion on whose 'facts' are more accurate and appropriate.
Which must be a good thing for democracy.
Where the hell did I admit that anything I said was a lie???????
Is there a ghost thread going on somewhere?
Canadians Etc. are treated the same as EU citizens. That is a lie. You told it not me.
Your whole contribution to the thread are either lies, half truths, distortions, or diversions.
You just cannot face it that EU citizens have to be waved through with only checks on terrorism and wanted criminal lists. That is EU law, not a distortion, not a half truth, not a diversion, or a muddy the water tactic. It's a FACT."You're sounding a bit like someone else there with your CLAIMS of facts. The border agency can check whether or not an EU citizen is on their watch list (WICU) or the Schengen Information System (since they signed up to it a year or so ago) just as they can for the nationals of any other country. Based on information on those systems they can stop entry. If you look up "Immigration statistics, January to March 2015" you'll find the data by region for people refused entry or undergoing enforced removal. In 2014: Of 15943 people "refused entry at a port and subsequently departed" there were 1393 EU citizens. Of 12460 "Total enforced removal" there were 3067 EU citizens removed. also Out of a total of 26307, there were 350 who left voluntarily. It seems like the Border Agency not only can inspect EU passports, it DOES inspect them and enforces its powers. It's best not to let verifiable facts get in the way of FACTS though. | |||
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"OK OK OK I give up. This is like wading through bloody treacle. I lied you lied the man in the bloody moon lied everyone lied. Everyone can come in everyone can't come in, some can come in with blue paper others with toilet paper. Whatever you want. yeah...except I didn't lie
Have a nice week though and give my regards to Angela, if you see her.
"If not lies, then I would think you are delusional. I hope more 'stay' voters like yourself are equally as vocal. It will sway a lot of the undecideds into to voting 'leave'. Keep up the good work! | |||
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"To say that the EU will charge us for trade is wrong, they need us far more than we need them and new trade agreements will be easy to draw up if necessary. Where do you get this rubbish from? So about 10% of EU trade is with the UK. Just under 50% of UK trade is with the EU. The EU's economy, if we left, would be over five times the size of ours. Tell me how 'they need us more than we need them' isn't just an outright lie? Oh and if we decide to leave, I hope you understand that we are NOT EVEN ALLOWED TO BE IN THE NEGOTIATION on the deal we are offered? Did you get that - we are not even allowed 'in the room'. And that deal will have to be approved by 27 EU governments, only two of whom have a trade surplus with us (Germany and Spain if you want to check). Open Europe did a 'war game' of the exit negotiations. Obviously not the actual people who would participate, so maybe of limited relevance, but I well remember the Irish delegate saying 'of course we are going to screw the UK. You are absolutely screwing us by leaving'. Glad you think that new trade agreements can be drawn up within a few minutes of leaving. Experienced trade negotiators beg to differ. I'm sure you are right though." I watched those war games by open Europe, and many of the participants openly admitted afterwards there was an element of "playing up to the cameras" so they can't really be a true reflection of what the real negotiations would look like. As it happens though the British representative in the war games who negotiated post Brexit deal ex chancellor of the exchequer Norman Lamont came out in favour of Brexit after those war games. He has appeared on Sky news and BBC news campaigning for vote Leave. Not sure if the war games swayed his decision one way or the other but the fact is he recommends a British exit from the EU now. | |||
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"OK OK OK I give up. This is like wading through bloody treacle. I lied you lied the man in the bloody moon lied everyone lied. Everyone can come in everyone can't come in, some can come in with blue paper others with toilet paper. Whatever you want. yeah...except I didn't lie
Have a nice week though and give my regards to Angela, if you see her.
Yes you did, you are a liar and a distorter, you will twist turn and divert from the facts to make your opinion seem like the truth. But hey judging from the messages I've received on this subject I think most on here can see right through you. Muddy or not.
"Judging from the messages I've received on this, plenty see you as a liar, twister and distorter, but most are too polite to say it or too scared of being bullied. | |||
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"There has been a lot of talk on this thread about the links between ww2 and how Hitler and the nazis wanted to control Europe to now how the EU is being controlled by Germany and is another way for Germany to control Europe. Found this interesting link/programme on Youtube, well worth a watch to anyone who is interested and explains how many of the EU's roots and ideas come from and started in Nazi Germany, in the 1940's. " Now you've gone barking mad. You've lost the argument and the plot once you start digging up conspiracy theories and the illuminati. | |||
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"There has been a lot of talk on this thread about the links between ww2 and how Hitler and the nazis wanted to control Europe to now how the EU is being controlled by Germany and is another way for Germany to control Europe. Found this interesting link/programme on Youtube, well worth a watch to anyone who is interested and explains how many of the EU's roots and ideas come from and started in Nazi Germany, in the 1940's. www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAq1q1_swyM " firstly, after all your posts over the last year or so attacking people for likening the xenophobic agenda of ukip to nazi germany in the 1940's, and then for yourself to now liken modern germany to the same is absolute unbridled hypocrisy. secondly, the fact that this utter bollocks spouted by the notorious conspiracy lunatic tony gosling underpins your argument for brexit is beyond belief by any rational human being.  | |||
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