FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > cowboy builders

cowboy builders

By *erryg OP TV/TS over a year ago

denton

how to spot a cowboy, yrs ago i would pay deposit with a cheque, or today pay direct into their bank account, not a good move to pay cash upfront, also if they deliver materials to your house eg boiler rads etc then give them money to cover costs, not give them cash to go and buy as they should have accounts, as any had a cowboy at their house

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You would expect a small company to cover all costs for you?

Maybe large ones have the cash flow to do it but smaller ones won't

The full sum should never be paid upfront but you will find that you won't find any company that will work without at least a interim payment and a s scheduled payment plan (stage payments)

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

ask to see their cscs card .... their qualifications will be on the back of the card. at least then you'll know they've done the requisite amount of training in their field.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I run my own landscaping business, I would cover small items (bags of compost, plants, seeds etc) but for any extensive work I'd expect material cost up front

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"ask to see their cscs card .... their qualifications will be on the back of the card. at least then you'll know they've done the requisite amount of training in their field."

CSCS cards mean nothing tbh, half the students I went to collage with to do carpentry and joinery have cards and I wouldn't let them fit a hinge let alone anything else

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

As a slef employed general contractor I present a full breakdown of materials on my quotes along with a schedule of work and only ask for the costs of materials upfront.

The quote and schedule of work act as the contract and receipts are given as and when money is handed over

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The cscs cards are really only relevant to working on construction sites (construction site certificate of safety) so most people working for domestic customers won't have one.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

"As a slef employed general contractor I present a full breakdown of materials on my quotes along with a schedule of work and only ask for the costs of materials upfront.

The quote and schedule of work act as the contract and receipts are given as and when money is handed over"

Yep: full quote that you use as a contract .

Here in France it's the law that any builder/ plumber ( in fact any company MUST give you a quote ( Devis).

Which when signed, can't be changed, unless both parties agree.

And trades must also have an insurance which gives a 10 year guarantee.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

"ask to see their cscs card .... their qualifications will be on the back of the card. at least then you'll know they've done the requisite amount of training in their field.

CSCS cards mean nothing tbh, half the students I went to collage with to do carpentry and joinery have cards and I wouldn't let them fit a hinge let alone anything else "

maybe so for the ten-a-penny tradesmen/blue card holders, but you have to know your stuff to get a gold card tbh

anyway, i don't do house bashing anymore. got sick of turning up to look at a job only to have the prospective client having a predisposed attitude of hostility from the offset due to the tv programs they watch about cowboy builders.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"As a slef employed general contractor I present a full breakdown of materials on my quotes along with a schedule of work and only ask for the costs of materials upfront.

The quote and schedule of work act as the contract and receipts are given as and when money is handed over

Yep: full quote that you use as a contract .

Here in France it's the law that any builder/ plumber ( in fact any company MUST give you a quote ( Devis).

Which when signed, can't be changed, unless both parties agree.

And trades must also have an insurance which gives a 10 year guarantee."

A quote should never be classed as a contract because it can't take in to account many items and is just a quote, any job should have a bill of quantities which will list all details, costs ect for the job (and this includes france since it was the EU that set out these rules)

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"but you have to know your stuff to get a gold card tbh"

Utter rubbish, all you need to do in other to get a gold CSCS card is finish your level 3

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

"The cscs cards are really only relevant to working on construction sites (construction site certificate of safety) so most people working for domestic customers won't have one."

you're correct in saying most domestic builders won't have one. but as i said, there is varifiable proof on the card that the holder has achieved a certain level of college based theory and practical examinations, especially since they tightened up the criteria for card holders last year. more house owners should be aware of the system as it can strip away another layer of doubt. saying that there will always be blaggers who will try to circumvent the system.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

"but you have to know your stuff to get a gold card tbh

Utter rubbish, all you need to do in other to get a gold CSCS card is finish your level 3"

so 3 years of apprenticeship by college based training is worthless according to you ..... you're really selling yourself by spouting this kind of shit .... not

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not really, unfortunately in the 3 years I was there the collage was more concerned about passes than actual teaching students the skills required.

I went in as a mature student so I knew alot already and was in a group of young school leavers and while they expected my work to be better than the rest because I knew better they let alot of the students get away with murder, poor practical work turnout and more chances than deserved, I passed all my exams first time on both fronts

Also I'm not trying to sell myself just pointing out facts and the fact is that collages half the time don't really care about the quality of work as long as it's 'passable'

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

"Not really, unfortunately in the 3 years I was there the collage was more concerned about passes than actual teaching students the skills required.

Also I'm not trying to sell myself just pointing out facts and the fact is that collages half the time don't really care about the quality of work as long as it's 'passable' "

i think that's probably down to the college you went to being substandard. The colleges i've been to (i've done 12 years construction based college) have been very stringent in so far as the kids who messed about just got told to leave and the testing standards were extremely high, especially so for bangor college.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ty31Man over a year ago

NW London

Couldn't you just ask the builder to provide references? A competent tradesmen should be happy to put you in touch with previous clients.

Also ask to see their professional indemnity insurance certificate just in case anything should go wrong.

And get more than one quote/opinion so you can compare.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Not really, unfortunately in the 3 years I was there the collage was more concerned about passes than actual teaching students the skills required.

Also I'm not trying to sell myself just pointing out facts and the fact is that collages half the time don't really care about the quality of work as long as it's 'passable'

I think it was more due to the new management that was put in place, they expected results and fast (like taking exams 3 months before we should have), the collage itself is meant to be one of the best in the west midlands (scc)

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *inaTitzTV/TS over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

I think Henning Wehn may have been exaggerating when he described it. He said that in Germany (or as he'd say, 'in Choimany') plumbing is very regulated and plumbers have to serve a long apprenticeship and go on many courses to gain qualifications. Whereas in Britain any Herbert can buy a white van and call himself a plumber....

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

"Couldn't you just ask the builder to provide references? A competent tradesmen should be happy to put you in touch with previous clients.

Also ask to see their professional indemnity insurance certificate just in case anything should go wrong.

And get more than one quote/opinion so you can compare."

always a good idea. all the suggestions here are a good idea but none will offer a rock solid guarantee. asking for references, proof of qualifications, proof of insurances etc will all combine to reduce the risk of being fleeced but not totally prevent it.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *carlet_heavenWoman over a year ago

somewhere in the sticks

I've NEVER found a competent tradesman…I'm a woman on my own & after many years of being ripped off I've learned that if you want something doing, do it yourself.

In my experience training & experience do not make someone good at their job. They have to want to be good to be good.

A recent European study suggested that we have roughly half the number of trades people that we need in the UK…this makes it much easier for cowboys

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Couldn't you just ask the builder to provide references? A competent tradesmen should be happy to put you in touch with previous clients.

Also ask to see their professional indemnity insurance certificate just in case anything should go wrong.

And get more than one quote/opinion so you can compare."

Precisely this. I don't advertise at all, all my work comes from recommendations

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"how to spot a cowboy, yrs ago i would pay deposit with a cheque, or today pay direct into their bank account, not a good move to pay cash upfront, also if they deliver materials to your house eg boiler rads etc then give them money to cover costs, not give them cash to go and buy as they should have accounts, as any had a cowboy at their house"

You can find people that will supply all up front if your dealing with businesses you usually have to supply everything up front

In this case you use a factoring company who loan you upto 80 % !of the invoice upfront and take a % of the rest can be as little as 5% of value to 20% depending on the companies financial standing .

I am quite happy to pay out for materials and labour up front and then collect later from people that have enough equity in their home for me to take them to the small claims court and force them to sell their house to pay me

I am not cheap and never will be so I find that people tend to want discounts for money in advance as I do state how much I am charging for an account facility . I make it very clear that I factor invoices and this cost of 20% will be put on their bill . They always order the stuff themselves after that or pay upfront

With businesses you always take the chance you won't get paid and they will go bust you Loae the money you paid for materiel and wages etc

It's business it's a gamble which is why self employed people like me earn more than paye . Because we take the financial risk

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ce WingerMan over a year ago

P.O. Box DE1 0NQ

I've been in the trade many years. I would suggest that anyone wanting any work done should get several quotes and then follow them up with recommendations of previous work carried out by that particular builder. Anyone worth their salt will have a portfolio to show you with a list of satisfied customers.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I've been in the trade many years. I would suggest that anyone wanting any work done should get several quotes and then follow them up with recommendations of previous work carried out by that particular builder. Anyone worth their salt will have a portfolio to show you with a list of satisfied customers. "

Its easy to show the satisfied customers . When everything goes to plan . Its how things progress when you have problems is what makes the difference between a good tradesman and a cowboy

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

Its easy to show the satisfied customers . When everything goes to plan . Its how things progress when you have problems is what makes the difference between a good tradesman and a cowboy "

like when you discover serious structural faults during a rip out on a simple plastering job that were covered up over decades of previous alterations by previous owners .... what a bummer

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ficouldMan over a year ago

a quandary, could you change my mind?

I've only recently changed my field of work and I'm now self employed, unfortunately I have already been caught out by a customer who cancelled work after I ordered non-returnable items of almost £1000 (the items I ordered I'm unlikely to need for some time). I don't have 'accounts' with local merchants, so now depending on the jobs material costs and where they are being purchased from I let the customer buy the items. It keeps the cash flow better for me, some will give me cash to get materials and normally well over what is required for the materials.

I'm always happy to supply customers with references but have found that most don't ask as the work I am doing is on the back of other work so word of mouth is the best.

Unfortunately as we all know, all trades / jobs / swingers have the bad element that puts us all off.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I've only recently changed my field of work and I'm now self employed, unfortunately I have already been caught out by a customer who cancelled work after I ordered non-returnable items of almost £1000 (the items I ordered I'm unlikely to need for some time). I don't have 'accounts' with local merchants, so now depending on the jobs material costs and where they are being purchased from I let the customer buy the items. It keeps the cash flow better for me, some will give me cash to get materials and normally well over what is required for the materials.

I'm always happy to supply customers with references but have found that most don't ask as the work I am doing is on the back of other work so word of mouth is the best.

Unfortunately as we all know, all trades / jobs / swingers have the bad element that puts us all off."

Firstly anything you buy in advance for a job make sure you buy it mail order eg screw fix etc etc as you get a chance to send it back if they cancel . Never buy anything that can't be returned

Secondly to help the cash flow get a credit card and put purchases on it . Then clear the balance when you get paid for job

Thirdly if it doesn't look right and anything looks like could be trouble don't take the job or over price it so you don't get it .

It's better to walk away than have a big pile of shit

You probably know all this but its a general thing for the other people reading this book

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ficouldMan over a year ago

a quandary, could you change my mind?

No thank-you for the advise.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ce WingerMan over a year ago

P.O. Box DE1 0NQ

Its easy to show the satisfied customers . When everything goes to plan . Its how things progress when you have problems is what makes the difference between a good tradesman and a cowboy

like when you discover serious structural faults during a rip out on a simple plastering job that were covered up over decades of previous alterations by previous owners .... what a bummer

That's why you should always survey the job properly before giving a quote

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

it's worthwhile reading up on standard JCT contracts .... they have smaller project contracts called "Building Contract for the Home Owner", specifically the HBO version. even if you don't want to use a JCT like this it's always worthwhile knowing what it contains and how it is compiled.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

Its easy to show the satisfied customers . When everything goes to plan . Its how things progress when you have problems is what makes the difference between a good tradesman and a cowboy

like when you discover serious structural faults during a rip out on a simple plastering job that were covered up over decades of previous alterations by previous owners .... what a bummer

That's why you should always survey the job properly before giving a quote

i'm guessing that your special derbyshire x-ray vision can see a 140 year old rubble wall through artex, dry-lining, 4" timber stud and 5" of lime putty ya cheeky ram fan you

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *ce WingerMan over a year ago

P.O. Box DE1 0NQ

"i'm guessing that your special derbyshire x-ray vision can see a 140 year old rubble wall through artex, dry-lining, 4" timber stud and 5" of lime putty ya cheeky ram fan you

Ok, I'll let ya off that one

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

"As a slef employed general contractor I present a full breakdown of materials on my quotes along with a schedule of work and only ask for the costs of materials upfront.

The quote and schedule of work act as the contract and receipts are given as and when money is handed over

Yep: full quote that you use as a contract .

Here in France it's the law that any builder/ plumber ( in fact any company MUST give you a quote ( Devis).

Which when signed, can't be changed, unless both parties agree.

And trades must also have an insurance which gives a 10 year guarantee.

That's what I mean ( since I am translating the French word " Devis".

Where all works; labour, materials must be laid out, ( and a timetable of work too). Which you then turn into a contract . Which is the type of " quote" ( contract/ plan / whatever ) I always used in UK too.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

A couple of years ago i had a right cowboy solicitor. He was worse than useless,,i ended up doing most of the work myself and i took him to the small claims court to get my money back.I won.

Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote or View forums list

» Add a new message to this topic