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Two Reasons to Leave E.U.

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By *uckoo clock OP Couple over a year ago

Merseyside

Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

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By *ighland_RoseCouple over a year ago

Brigadoon

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!"

I know you've said that partly in jest (or maybe not!) but I think we have to be wary of being influenced by others, politicians or anyone, as they will no doubt have their own personal reasons for either staying or leaving...most likely personal investments!

Each person has to make their own mind up, do a bit of research, don't take anything written in the mass media as truth, look into it yourselves. If everyone did that we would end up with the best result.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

good advice, very good advice

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

I really dislike the way it's becoming really politicised and about personalities - it really shouldn't be.

So, on the flipside, reasons to stay: piss Michael Gove off.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I really dislike the way it's becoming really politicised and about personalities - it really shouldn't be.

So, on the flipside, reasons to stay: piss Michael Gove off."

You just made a decision based on a personality ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I really dislike the way it's becoming really politicised and about personalities - it really shouldn't be.

So, on the flipside, reasons to stay: piss Michael Gove off.

You just made a decision based on a personality ...

No, I was illustrating a point.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"I really dislike the way it's becoming really politicised and about personalities - it really shouldn't be.

So, on the flipside, reasons to stay: piss Michael Gove off.

You just made a decision based on a personality ...

hardly..

Gove is bereft of one..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!"

The same two that said hell and damnation would follow if we didn't join the Euro:

"That's why Labour - as the party of full employment and higher living standards for working people in today's globalised economy - supports European integration and euro entry."

Peter Mandelson in 2003.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/may/22/euro.eu2

While Labour may have (in public) turned their backs on the Euro they still want full European Integration. And they of course opposed any referendum both when Brown signed the Lisbon Treaty and when the Tories put it in their Manifesto in 2010.

That great Parliamentarian Tony Benn must be turning in his grave.

Can I add another reason to leave?

When a foreign President (in this case of France) threatens us with 'consequences' unless we vote how they want us to then it seems to me we should say 'F**k Off France'....

Want another?

The sight of a British Prime Minister (in this case Cameron) standing beside that French President while he threatens his country and smiling broadly!

When people feel the need to threaten (like the EU and the French) or frighten (like the Government 'Project Fear) others to do as they wish it shows they know their case is weak. It shows they maybe know something the others do not but need to.

And my last reason for leaving?

"We have nothing to fear other than fear itself"

Franklin D Roosevelt

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I really dislike the way it's becoming really politicised and about personalities - it really shouldn't be.

So, on the flipside, reasons to stay: piss Michael Gove off.

You just made a decision based on a personality ...

hardly..

Gove is bereft of one..

.... But on the EU is he right or wrong? He points out that this supposed 'agreement' can be overturned by the ECJ and / or the European Parliament at any time. And that 'Red Card'? .. Only if we convince 27 others.

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By *rightonsteveMan over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

So what if people won't know what will happen if we exit the EU? When did not knowing anything stop the British from doing anything?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

[Removed by poster at 07/03/16 19:34:04]

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

Jerry Adams and Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein too. "

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"I really dislike the way it's becoming really politicised and about personalities - it really shouldn't be.

So, on the flipside, reasons to stay: piss Michael Gove off.

You just made a decision based on a personality ...

hardly..

Gove is bereft of one..

who knows?

there needs to be more concrete information and at the moment a lot of it is about the fear factor if we do leave.

and if we stay..

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By *anchestercubMan over a year ago

manchester & NI

"I really dislike the way it's becoming really politicised and about personalities - it really shouldn't be.

So, on the flipside, reasons to stay: piss Michael Gove off.

You just made a decision based on a personality ...

hardly..

Gove is bereft of one..

who knows?

there needs to be more concrete information and at the moment a lot of it is about the fear factor if we do leave.

and if we stay..

Except that those complaining of the fear factor were the same people who were using it on Scotland during the Indy Ref.

Fucking hypocrites!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In the 1970s Britain was in financial term oil in 1976 it a got a bailout from the imf from then on in the eu it's now the 5 th largest economy and doing well ....so I don't really get how the eu is bad for Britain

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By *anchestercubMan over a year ago

manchester & NI

"In the 1970s Britain was in financial term oil in 1976 it a got a bailout from the imf from then on in the eu it's now the 5 th largest economy and doing well ....so I don't really get how the eu is bad for Britain"

Did we? I didn't know that - thanks.

1970s Welfare Queens

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Did we? I didn't know that - thanks.

1970s Welfare Queens

"
Google it

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

[POST OF THE DAY]

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By *enard ArgenteMan over a year ago

London and France

Can I add another reason to leave?

When a foreign President (in this case of France) threatens us with 'consequences' unless we vote how they want us to ........"

The "out" campaign of course has misquoted this; out of context, and mistranslated;

Hollande simply made a remark that there would be consequences of leaving; which if course there will be;

Life will change ( for good or bad, whichever way you look at it), what Hollandexwascsaying was asking whether everyone understood the consequences; there was no threat in his words at all.....

The jingoistic press of course loves to paint this as a threat ......

Quoted out of co

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By *anchestercubMan over a year ago

manchester & NI

Can I add another reason to leave?

When a foreign President (in this case of France) threatens us with 'consequences' unless we vote how they want us to ........

The "out" campaign of course has misquoted this; out of context, and mistranslated;

Hollande simply made a remark that there would be consequences of leaving; which if course there will be;

Life will change ( for good or bad, whichever way you look at it), what Hollandexwascsaying was asking whether everyone understood the consequences; there was no threat in his words at all.....

The jingoistic press of course loves to paint this as a threat ......

Quoted out of co"

Not to mention the British press love an anti-French headline.

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

This is so true and I hope people will do some actual research. I have and the EU is quite disturbing

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Johnson came to the hood one day

But would the pound be higher?

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By *verysmileMan over a year ago

Canterbury

On the one side, Cameron, Osborne and Corbyn.

On the other, Johnson, Gove and Farage.

So please do not think that one side has the monopoly on political deviants and arseholes.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My two reasons for voting to leave would be ........

1) It would piss my father off??

And

2 ) more importantly piss my mother inlaw off ??

But in all seriousness , we are not being given all the true facts , Cameron is bleating on and pushing the stay in , only giving the pros to stay , but no pros to leave , and the outs are pushing the opposite .

As far as concerned I think the pm should be sitting on the fence and giving both options equally but we all know why Cameron is fighting to stay is he wants a nice little euro job like Bliar for when he stepped down .

It has become a very sad state of affairs when we can no longer trust politicians who are only looking after their own careers no matter what the outcome . There ought to be an impartial report for pros and cons both ways , no fear or threats made by other members .

How can we be truly democratic when we are fed inconsistencies , one sided facts and borderline bullied with fear of making the "wrong" choice .

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think the Cabinet Ministers and MPs who are campaigning to leave have more to lose than the ones staying with Cameron on the 'Remain' side. Win or lose their careers are in the toilet for defying their Party Leader. And Cameron WILL take revenge before he leaves office.

So I have to believe when someone says we are better out knowing he is going to be out of a job on June 24th they are speaking convinced it is right for the country. I dare say some on the other side are equally convinced but then they aren't taking any career risks and indeed could be career hopefuls.

Cameron should have gone for the Referendum last June without all the false theatricals we have had and now all the bullshit about a reformed Europe. It will NEVER reform because they are Socialist dreamers enveloped in an unshakable belief in a United States of Europe....

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By *oyce69Man over a year ago

Driffield

If you want to give up everything that our fathers and grandfathers fought for in two world wars then vote stay in because the result will be the same as if we had lost.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Can I add another reason to leave?

When a foreign President (in this case of France) threatens us with 'consequences' unless we vote how they want us to ........

The "out" campaign of course has misquoted this; out of context, and mistranslated;

Hollande simply made a remark that there would be consequences of leaving; which if course there will be;

Life will change ( for good or bad, whichever way you look at it), what Hollandexwascsaying was asking whether everyone understood the consequences; there was no threat in his words at all.....

The jingoistic press of course loves to paint this as a threat ......

Quoted out of co"

His actual words as recorded from his own translator were:

"“I don't want to scare you but I just want to say the truth. There will be consequences in many areas,”

In other words he IS trying to scare us and he IS trying to threaten us. Just before the comments from Mr Hollande, French finance minister Emmanuel Macron told the Financial Times: “The day this relationship unravels, migrants will no longer be in Calais.”

"David Cameron dismissed suggestions that the French intervention was part of a giant conspiracy to “stitch-up” the result of the referendum on Britain's EU membership as “nonsense”

Well of course it isn't Dave ... And promptly hands over ANOTHER £17 Million to Mr Hollande to keep Calais doing what it should be doing anyway. MAGIC! So there was no conversation along the lines of "If I pay you £17 million will you help me in the Referendum Mr President?" was there Dave? Oh and have a £ Billion of our Taranis technology as well Mr President....

All of the above from:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/francois-hollande-warns-of-consequences-if-britain-leaves-the-eu-a6910096.html

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

"If you want to give up everything that our fathers and grandfathers fought for in two world wars then vote stay in because the result will be the same as if we had lost. "

funny you should mention this because my father was telling me only just yesterday that he didn't get conscripted and shot at back then so the baby boomers could selfishly fuck everybody elses shit up the way that they are doing today

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Totally in favour of a common market a excellent concept, but not this federal state of europe.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

[Removed by poster at 07/03/16 23:28:09]

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By *inaTitzTV/TS over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!"

On that basis, I see your rogues gallery and I raise George Galloway, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson as rogues who want to come out.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

On that basis, I see your rogues gallery and I raise George Galloway, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson as rogues who want to come out.

it looked like gove had "come out" in last weeks clean for the queen campaign photo

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/27/gove-and-johnson-strike-a-pose-in-clean-for-the-queen-campaign#img-1

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Totally in favour of a common market a excellent concept, but not this federal state of europe."

Exactly what I voted for as well ....

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By *moothdanMan over a year ago

Northumberland

Looking forward to 23 rd June as it might put a stop to the scaremongering. Absolute nonsense about leaving the eurozone, when people are dying to escape persecution. What happened to being a human being? It's not all about money. I am glad I won't be here to hear it all as I will be spending it in the company of some kind, caring human beings in a different country.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Unfortunately, due to the economic state, it is about money and how we would benefit from being in the EU or being out of the EU. There are a lot of unknowns at this stage with regards to both sides and how we will be able to conduct ourselves after the referendum. This should be something based on fact, not what the government campaigns tell you is fact, but researched individual facts. Money is a large part of the debate, a large part of the agriculture spending(4£billion) comes from the EU. If we leave will this be mirrored by the UK government or will our "large exports" of agriculture diminish? It is all relative to what each side are proposing the outcome of our economy will be.

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By *moothdanMan over a year ago

Northumberland

It's not on the top of my agenda. More important things in my life to be concerned about the economics of all this. This is very rich country and politicians made the working man/ woman and child tighten their belts so they could prove a point. Why should anyone listen too them or those fat cats who are now trying to protect themselves.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Looking forward to 23 rd June as it might put a stop to the scaremongering. Absolute nonsense about leaving the eurozone, when people are dying to escape persecution. What happened to being a human being? It's not all about money. I am glad I won't be here to hear it all as I will be spending it in the company of some kind, caring human beings in a different country.

Well we are both looking forward to June 23rd.

But you seem a bit confused. We are not IN the Eurozone and so will not be leaving it. And what has the Eurozone got to do with illegal migrants? Apart from creating legal migrants form countries IN the Eurozone.

And forgive me but who says that wanting to leave a corrupt monstrosity that none of us voted to join makes us less caring than anyone else? Can I remind you who is the biggest provider in the EU of aid, food, tents and heating for the real refugees in Jordan and similar places? Yes its us Brits. Maybe go shout at the Germans, French or Italians to give more. Oh wait no .. they are skint and in the Eurozone ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Money is a large part of the debate, a large part of the agriculture spending(4£billion) comes from the EU. If we leave will this be mirrored by the UK government or will our "large exports" of agriculture diminish? "

Yes money is a very large part of this debate. Like the £9 Billion (nett) we pay into the EU. You mention £4.5 Billion spent by the EU on our agriculture? Well who do you think is paying that £4.5 Billion TO the EU for THEM to decide where it is spent? We hand over (after our Tony Blair halved rebate) some £13 Billion (roughly). £4 Billion (roughly) comes back via grants and CAP payments to which you refer. The EU are kindly giving us back OUR money!

Personally I would rather keep the £13 Billion (more in 2016) and WE decide how we spend OUR money here. And yes I am sure we will spend that $4 Billion on our agriculture, our decimated fishing industry, supporting our steel industry and basically US looking after US. Not relying on the kindness of some faceless Federalists.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well we are both looking forward to June 23rd.

That really is a weird post. The Germans have taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees. And as for them being skint - I'm not sure what planet you are on, but it's nowhere near this one.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

On that basis, I see your rogues gallery and I raise George Galloway, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson as rogues who want to come out.

Is this like a new version of fab top trumps, or EU top trumps? If so I will raise you with Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein, and Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond of the SNP who want us to remain in.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Immigration and France enough said

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That really is a weird post. The Germans have taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees. And as for them being skint - I'm not sure what planet you are on, but it's nowhere near this one. "

Oh look its the changer in chief of posts...

Nothing weird here ... jog on ...

I see you carefully changed the context from 'aid' (that I actually wrote) to 'refugees' (you make out I wrote). Fact remains the British are putting more real aid where it counts than any other EU nation. SIMPLE FACT. £1.2 Billion worth of facts actually.

Of course if we hadn't been flooded with 3 million EU migrants already maybe we could take in more real refugees from Syria. But sadly we are full to bursting...

And yes the Germans opened the door to thousands of illegal migrants. 90% of them men. And then shut it very hard when they realised they had really screwed up. And the Hungarians, Austrians, Macedonians et al are really really grateful. As are the women in Cologne and Sweden after they did the same. I mean how stupid saying to the first 100,000 'Come here!' ... and forgetting to tell the other 150,000 right behind them 'Sorry! Go away!'. Utterly stupid and typically 'European'. And now they are having ANOTHER summit to 'talk about it'.

And again what I actually said was:

" Oh wait no .. they are skint and in the Eurozone ..."

As I was replying to someone about the 'e u r o z on e' ....

As for planets ... what planet are YOU on to think the 'Euro' is in anything but in terminal decline. Oh wait ... you don't do reality do you? You prefer to change people's words and then call them 'liars', 'scaremongers' .... and 'weird'.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Europe is my continent not my country.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That really is a weird post. The Germans have taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees. And as for them being skint - I'm not sure what planet you are on, but it's nowhere near this one.

Oh look its the changer in chief of posts...

Nothing weird here ... jog on ...

Of course if we hadn't been flooded with 3 million EU migrants already maybe we could take in more real refugees from Syria. But sadly we are full to bursting...

And again what I actually said was:

" Oh wait no .. they are skint and in the Eurozone ..."

As I was replying to someone about the 'e u r o z on e' ....

Another boring and irrelevant rant from you. Let's take one point at a time. Explain how Germany is skint? You lie so much you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Two Reasons to Leave E.U.

will give just one, then another later

Flooding DECEMBER 2015

Cumbria

Yorkshire

Lancashire

Scotland

Uninsured victims face £1BILLION bill as total cost of floods soars to £5.8billion: Exactly the amount we are giving to the fight against global warming abroad

MPs last night demanded to know why the Government has not applied for disaster relief from an EU fund.

The European Union Solidarity Fund helps member states cope with natural disasters. The UK paid in £35.6million to the scheme this year.

Under EU rules, a country has ten weeks from the first damage caused by a natural disaster to make an application for aid. Last summer it paid out £60million to help the recovery effort following floods in Serbia, Croatia and Bulgaria in which 60 people died.

Britain has only ever made one claim – after the summer floods of 2007 – and we were awarded £130million.

Tory MP Andrew Bridgen said: ‘We pay all this money into the Solidarity Fund, as the second largest net contributor, and everyone else applies for it. If there is funding available to alleviate the impact of the flood we should use it.

Get us out of the EU, I will be voting out

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3376935/Put-suffering-Britons-PM-Floods-cost-5-8bn-exactly-giving-fight-global-warming-overseas.html

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If I had any doubts before now that turkey are blackmailing the eu for early entry . If we think we have to many now wait till they join

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Two Reasons to Leave E.U.

will give just one, then another later

Flooding DECEMBER 2015

Cumbria

Yorkshire

Lancashire

Scotland

Uninsured victims face £1BILLION bill as total cost of floods soars to £5.8billion: Exactly the amount we are giving to the fight against global warming abroad

MPs last night demanded to know why the Government has not applied for disaster relief from an EU fund.

The European Union Solidarity Fund helps member states cope with natural disasters. The UK paid in £35.6million to the scheme this year.

Britain has only ever made one claim – after the summer floods of 2007 – and we were awarded £130million.

Get us out of the EU, I will be voting out

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3376935/Put-suffering-Britons-PM-Floods-cost-5-8bn-exactly-giving-fight-global-warming-overseas.html

You're complaining about a uk sovereign decision not to take some money? I think you'll find that the eu set aside hundreds of millions of euros last year and this for british flood victims and the British government refused to take the money.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/david-cameron-refuses-ask-eu-7122896

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By *obbytupperMan over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!"

The EU is an organisation run by failed politicians and full of corruption. The perfect home for these two serpents.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Two Reasons to Leave E.U.

will give just one, then another later

Flooding DECEMBER 2015

Cumbria

Yorkshire

Lancashire

Scotland

Uninsured victims face £1BILLION bill as total cost of floods soars to £5.8billion: Exactly the amount we are giving to the fight against global warming abroad

MPs last night demanded to know why the Government has not applied for disaster relief from an EU fund.

The European Union Solidarity Fund helps member states cope with natural disasters. The UK paid in £35.6million to the scheme this year.

Britain has only ever made one claim – after the summer floods of 2007 – and we were awarded £130million.

Get us out of the EU, I will be voting out

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3376935/Put-suffering-Britons-PM-Floods-cost-5-8bn-exactly-giving-fight-global-warming-overseas.html

Britain has made one claim, from which it was paid £130m. So Britain has a 100% success rate in being awarded funding from this particular pot. How is Britain's failure to apply the fault of the EU? I'm genuinely bemused that this is your no.1 reason you've come up with.

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By *uckoo clock OP Couple over a year ago

Merseyside

A young boy says to his Father...." Dad, when I grow up, I'm thinking of a career in organised crime"

The Father replies," Really Son,...the private sector...or Government ?".

Most of us of course see the humour in that joke.But all humour derives from a grain of truth.

But sadly since its original concept, the E.U has morphed into what has become an unelected, unaccountable cartel which could shame the mafiosa".

Regardless of the outcome of the coming referendum the E.U is fatally flawed and will eventually implode !!

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

This whole referendum will turn out to be an expensive waste of time - the Remain vote will win as those who are unsure will be terrified, while the Out vote will never be happy with anything - and it will clog up legitimate government business for the best part of 6 months.

Nothing else will get done.

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By *angtidy42Couple over a year ago

Redditch

Redtwo has hit the nail on the head. Good for the trade and nothing more. Our country so our ways. And not lapdog to Europe.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

On that basis, I see your rogues gallery and I raise George Galloway, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson as rogues who want to come out.

And to further divert the thread, why are the two main SNP characters named after fish?

I can't see them on television anymore without imagining them in Nemo.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!"

Really?

Have you thought this through?

The same men believe in parliamentary democracy, does this mean your in favour of dictatorship? Tony Blair has spent the last 10 years and the UN Middle East peace envoy, does this mean you are in favour of bombing the whole place to shit?

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By *uckoo clock OP Couple over a year ago

Merseyside

No it does not mean I am in favour of dictatorship nor bombing 'the place to shit'.

It does mean that I am very sceptical of politicians per say. Put simply,too many are in it for themselves, and too few practice the politics of conviction

I single these two out as being the greatest exponents of the former.

Both are Champagne socialists who's main pastimes these days are enriching themselves through contacts made while in office.

Mandlesson was forced to resign from office twice for not, shall we say, being completely above board.

As for being democratic. Mandlesson once said that democracy is not the provence of the little people (that's you and me).

Blair,has also stated that the biggest political mistake he ever made was introducing the freedom of information act and if he could would immediately repeal it.

Now there's a surprise ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Another boring and irrelevant rant from you."

More personal abuse from you and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

" Let's take one point at a time. Explain how Germany is skint?"

Ah once again the 'Changer in Chief' selects some words and presents them totally out of context. And when corrected repeats the illusion. As anyone can see above I was referring to the Eurozone not individual countries. I even spelled it out .. E U R O Z O N E. I could point out we outgrew Germany for over three years and will overtake its economy in ten.

" You lie so much you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you."

Again more personal abuse and totally irrelevant to the discussion. And its a bit rich coming from someone who seems to have a skill in adapting and changing words to mean something entirely different from the original writer's intention and then making a false argument about that changed meaning. MAGIC!

Misrepresenting someone is the worst kind of lying. We can all see you for what you are.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This whole referendum will turn out to be an expensive waste of time - the Remain vote will win as those who are unsure will be terrified, while the Out vote will never be happy with anything - and it will clog up legitimate government business for the best part of 6 months.

Nothing else will get done. "

Exactly, far too many gutless people living with no future in UK

Personally, I do hope its a vote to remain as I can up and leave anytime,

have all that's needed to live a happy live where ever I choose in this world, and suspect the last years wont be in UK

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"No it does not mean I am in favour of dictatorship nor bombing 'the place to shit'.

It does mean that I am very sceptical of politicians per say. Put simply,too many are in it for themselves, and too few practice the politics of conviction

I single these two out as being the greatest exponents of the former.

Both are Champagne socialists who's main pastimes these days are enriching themselves through contacts made while in office.

Mandlesson was forced to resign from office twice for not, shall we say, being completely above board.

As for being democratic. Mandlesson once said that democracy is not the provence of the little people (that's you and me).

Blair,has also stated that the biggest political mistake he ever made was introducing the freedom of information act and if he could would immediately repeal it.

Now there's a surprise ?"

Thank you for such a considered answer. I fully understand (and agree) with what you are saying and why you feel the way you do about our politicians. However I strongly believe that turning the EU debate into a personality or popularity contest does us all a great disservice. The issue is too important and the costs of making the wrong decision too great to allow anything other than the issue influence our decision.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Another boring and irrelevant rant from you.

More personal abuse from you and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Let's take one point at a time. Explain how Germany is skint?

You lie so much you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you.

Misrepresenting someone is the worst kind of lying. We can all see you for what you are.

Your exact words were: Maybe go shout at the Germans, French or Italians to give more. Oh wait no .. they are skint and in the Eurozone ..."

Come on, explain in what way Germany is skint. This time without the boring and irrelevant smokescreen of lies.

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By *arry247Couple over a year ago

Wakefield

That really is a weird post. The Germans have taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees. And as for them being skint - I'm not sure what planet you are on, but it's nowhere near this one."

Yes but why?

Germany has a falling population and needs roughly half a million new immigrants every year until 2050 to maintain its work force, according to a study done by the Bertelsmann Institute.

The immigrant crisis was seen as manner from heaven by the German government until the New Year sex attacks changed the thinking.

Opening the doors will not solve anything and will only destroy the race relations we have in the UK, what is needed is a sensible policy that will accept reasonable number of immigrants at a pace that can be absorbed by the localities infrastructure

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

The EU is an organisation run by failed politicians and full of corruption. The perfect home for these two serpents."

I think you just summed up Jean Claude D*unker Juncker perfectly there...

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/14/jean-claude-juncker-luxembourg-tax-deals-controversy

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/606229/LuxLeaks-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Luxembourg-tax-avoidance-Prime-minister

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By *phroditeWoman over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

..but I think we have to be wary of being influenced by others, politicians or anyone, as they will no doubt have their own personal reasons for either staying or leaving...most likely personal investments!

This! With emphasis on doing a bit of research and making sure they understand what they are voting for or against. I have no issue with people on either side of the fence provided they not following mass hysteria

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"No it does not mean I am in favour of dictatorship nor bombing 'the place to shit'.

It does mean that I am very sceptical of politicians per say. Put simply,too many are in it for themselves, and too few practice the politics of conviction

I single these two out as being the greatest exponents of the former.

Both are Champagne socialists who's main pastimes these days are enriching themselves through contacts made while in office.

Mandlesson was forced to resign from office twice for not, shall we say, being completely above board.

As for being democratic. Mandlesson once said that democracy is not the provence of the little people (that's you and me).

Blair,has also stated that the biggest political mistake he ever made was introducing the freedom of information act and if he could would immediately repeal it.

Now there's a surprise ?"

Lets not forget Peter Mandelson has held a post in the EU before, he was european commissioner for trade between 2004 and 2008, he was never elected to that position by the people of europe he was "appointed" by the commission.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Mandelson

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"No it does not mean I am in favour of dictatorship nor bombing 'the place to shit'.

It does mean that I am very sceptical of politicians per say. Put simply,too many are in it for themselves, and too few practice the politics of conviction

I single these two out as being the greatest exponents of the former.

Both are Champagne socialists who's main pastimes these days are enriching themselves through contacts made while in office.

Mandlesson was forced to resign from office twice for not, shall we say, being completely above board.

As for being democratic. Mandlesson once said that democracy is not the provence of the little people (that's you and me).

Blair,has also stated that the biggest political mistake he ever made was introducing the freedom of information act and if he could would immediately repeal it.

Now there's a surprise ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Mandelson"

He was appointed by the democratically elected uk government.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan over a year ago

London

I'm struggling to think how Mandelson is at all relevant.

There are plenty of unpleasant politicians on both sides.

If you're going to be led by an individuals opinions, how about Richard Branson (voting in), or any of the 197 business leaders who wrote the letter supporting our staying in.

(There's no equivalent letter for the Out vote, I note)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

Really?

Have you thought this through?

And what a good job he's done there eh?

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By *osieWoman over a year ago

Wembley

"I really dislike the way it's becoming really politicised and about personalities - it really shouldn't be.

So, on the flipside, reasons to stay: piss Michael Gove off.

You just made a decision based on a personality ...

hardly..

Gove is bereft of one..

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By *uckoo clock OP Couple over a year ago

Merseyside

"No it does not mean I am in favour of dictatorship nor bombing 'the place to shit'.

It does mean that I am very sceptical of politicians per say. Put simply,too many are in it for themselves, and too few practice the politics of conviction

I single these two out as being the greatest exponents of the former.

Both are Champagne socialists who's main pastimes these days are enriching themselves through contacts made while in office.

Mandlesson was forced to resign from office twice for not, shall we say, being completely above board.

As for being democratic. Mandlesson once said that democracy is not the provence of the little people (that's you and me).

Blair,has also stated that the biggest political mistake he ever made was introducing the freedom of information act and if he could would immediately repeal it.

Now there's a surprise ?

The E.U Referendum is the most important decision this country will make in the last 50 years and clearly we all have to weigh and consider the arguments on both sides.

We could categorise that debate into three main areas.The Economy, Immigration, and Sovereignty.

But to suggest we shouldn't 'personalise' that debate by mentioning individuals is a bit like saying we shouldn't mention Hitler when discussing the Holocaust or the genecide of the third reich.

Tony Blair and mates were the chief instigators of our uncontrolled open door immigration policy and together with subsequent governments before and after have ceded power to Brussels. Cameron came to power promising he would end that. But he hasn't. ....simply because he can't while we remain as we are.

So let's have that debate but let's not be frightened to highlight the views of those who helped fashion the situation we now find ourselves in.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"If you want to give up everything that our fathers and grandfathers fought for in two world wars then vote stay in because the result will be the same as if we had lost. "

Or maybe

Lots of people on both sides of the in/out argument have fathers or grandfathers who fought in the war. Some fought bravely for king & country, others fought bravely against bigotry, racism and nationalism. Voting either way in this referendum is neither treacherous nor treasonous. In fact the only real tractors would be those, whilst believing it was better for Britain to stay, vote out or vice versa.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Nothing else will get done. "

And, tbh, the Conservatives only pledged the referendum to out UKIP UKIP at the last election - the wording was 'if we get a majority we will hold a referendum on Europe'.

They never expected to get a majority and now we're lumbered with the thing...

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"I'm struggling to think how Mandelson is at all relevant.

There are plenty of unpleasant politicians on both sides.

If you're going to be led by an individuals opinions, how about Richard Branson (voting in), or any of the 197 business leaders who wrote the letter supporting our staying in.

(There's no equivalent letter for the Out vote, I note)"

Sorry but that is where you are wrong. There is a letter signed by more than 200 small businesses and entrepreneurs telling people to vote for Leave. Here is the link if you want to take a look at it...

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12181306/EU-referendum-200-small-firm-bosses-and-entrepreneurs-tell-Britons-to-vote-for-Brexit.html

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

Can I add another reason to leave?

When a foreign President (in this case of France) threatens us with 'consequences' unless we vote how they want us to ........

The "out" campaign of course has misquoted this; out of context, and mistranslated;

Hollande simply made a remark that there would be consequences of leaving; which if course there will be;

Life will change ( for good or bad, whichever way you look at it), what Hollandexwascsaying was asking whether everyone understood the consequences; there was no threat in his words at all.....

The jingoistic press of course loves to paint this as a threat ......

Quoted out of co

His actual words as recorded from his own translator were:

"“I don't want to scare you but I just want to say the truth. There will be consequences in many areas,”

"David Cameron dismissed suggestions that the French intervention was part of a giant conspiracy to “stitch-up” the result of the referendum on Britain's EU membership as “nonsense”

All of the above from:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/francois-hollande-warns-of-consequences-if-britain-leaves-the-eu-a6910096.html

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Are you saying there will be no consequences and that it will make no difference to Britain at all if we leave the EU?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I do hope people start with good old Maggie Thatcher, courtesy of channel 4's "factcheck: the Thatcher myths":

During the 1975 referendum on whether the UK should remain in the EEC, this was her opening gambit as she launched the Conservative campaign: “I welcome this opportunity to launch the Conservative campaign to keep Britain in Europe.”

In 1978, while still in opposition, she called for consideration of a common European approach to defence, and criticised the Labour government for failing to sign up to the exchange rate mechanism.

In 1986, she signed the single European act, which set a deadline of 1992 for the full completion of the single market to allow the free movement of goods, capital and people within Europe.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

There are plenty of things to discuss, debate and decide upon, in each area of the negotiations and the deal set out, before we make our final decision. A report produced by the government during the last 7 days, and summarised on gov.uk by the foreign secretary is an interesting read. Although he may be pro-EU, read it with an open mind and be as neutral as you can, whilst reading.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/alternatives-to-eu-membership

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm struggling to think how Mandelson is at all relevant.

There are plenty of unpleasant politicians on both sides.

If you're going to be led by an individuals opinions, how about Richard Branson (voting in), or any of the 197 business leaders who wrote the letter supporting our staying in.

(There's no equivalent letter for the Out vote, I note)

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12181306/EU-referendum-200-small-firm-bosses-and-entrepreneurs-tell-Britons-to-vote-for-Brexit.html"

And according to a poll of nearly 500 small businesses by Moore Stephens, 60% of small and medium size business owners would vote to stay in the EU and 17% support Brexit.

http://www.cityam.com/235543/eu-referendum-six-in-10-small-business-owners-would-vote-for-the-uk-to-stay-in-the-eu-while-17-per-cent-back-brexit-according-to-new-moore-stephens-pol

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" I'm sorry but I don't understand. Are you saying there will be no consequences and that it will make no difference to Britain at all if we leave the EU? "

Of course there will be consequences of staying in or leaving the EU. What those consequences will be or what we estimate them to be are matters for us the people of the UK. There is a convention that foreigners do not meddle in a country's democratic process. The French and the Americans clearly are. And one should ask why? Since when did France or America do anything other than look after THEIR best interests (and rightly so).

When a foreign leader opens his remarks with 'I do not want to scare you but ...' that is a threat. Indeed it followed a pattern from an earlier threat by France's Finance Minister that a Brexit would render the 2003 Le Touquet Treaty, that established UK and French borders on opposite sides of the Channel, as breached. Which of course is totally untrue as it is a bilateral Treaty outside of the EU. It would only be breached if France chose so to do. So these are threats of action by France. It is not 'friendly advice' as it is being spun out.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

God help us ... All this is now Maggie's fault ....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I found Francois Hollande under my bed last night. He told me how much he hates Britain and is determined to undermine all attempts by good, honest John Bull to make Britain great again.

Scary fella

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Those nasty European bullies have been inflicting their nasty food safety standards for far too long.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A link recently supplied:

http://www.cityam.com/235543/eu-referendum-six-in-10-small-business-owners-would-vote-for-the-uk-to-stay-in-the-eu-while-17-per-cent-back-brexit-according-to-new-moore-stephens-pol

purporting to fully support a Brexit actually said:

"firms surveyed would "welcome an exit from Europe, primarily due to the excessive bureaucracy associated with EU trading regulations, especially in the food industry, and also because of the prospect of tax reductions which could benefit business".

Hmmm ... as someone said always read fully what people provide ....

There are also sites that have information which show the current figures for what we both import and export as a nation to the EU. As of December 15, a little outdated I know, we exported £10.4bn to the EU, but still imported £17bn. An unfortunate net trading of -£6.4bn with the EU. These were both decreases from the information from December 14, however, a plus point for importing but not so plus for exporting.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Those nasty European bullies have been inflicting their nasty food safety standards for far too long.

Imagine putting regulations in place that make food products safer to consume. The preposterous nature of those lot

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A link recently supplied:

http://www.cityam.com/235543/eu-referendum-six-in-10-small-business-owners-would-vote-for-the-uk-to-stay-in-the-eu-while-17-per-cent-back-brexit-according-to-new-moore-stephens-pol

purporting to fully support a Brexit actually said:

Hmmm ... as someone said always read fully what people provide ....

I'm not sure if you can read or not? Here's the full article:

Six in 10 owners of small and medium-sized businesses in Britain would vote to stay in the European Union, according to a new poll out today from a leading accountancy group.

Moore Stephens polled nearly 500 owner-managed businesses in Britain, across multiple sectors, finding that just 17 per cent of so-called SMEs back Brexit.

"Owner-managed businesses are concerned that future growth will be disproportionately hit by a UK exit as they would no longer compete on a level playing field in the EU," said Moore Stephens partner Mark Lamb. "Economic and political uncertainty is already impacting trade for some SMEs, and there is a fear that leaving the EU could severely destabilise business growth in the long-run."

"Small businesses currently benefit from unrestricted access to the large European market and many could find increases in tariffs and potential trade restriction difficult to overcome, stifling international growth potential," Lamb said, before adding that "some" of the firms surveyed would "welcome an exit from Europe, primarily due to the excessive bureaucracy associated with EU trading regulations, especially in the food industry, and also because of the prospect of tax reductions which could benefit business".

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I found Francois Hollande under my bed last night. He told me how much he hates Britain and is determined to undermine all attempts by good, honest John Bull to make Britain great again.

Scary fella

Well if I were French I would be scared. He is the typical EU Socialist leader looking to make the EU Project and the Euro work regardless of the costs to his own people. As an annual report recently showed:

"....the French economy is still lagging behind the average growth rate of Eurozone countries and unemployment has been steady at over 10% for three years. Latest indicators signal that the economy likely lost momentum at the start of 2016. Indeed, in February, the composite PMI fell below the threshold that separates contraction from expansion and consumer confidence dropped to a six-month low. 'FocusEconomics' panelists expect the economy to expand 1.3% in 2016, which is down 0.1 percentage points from last month’s forecast and expect GDP to grow 1.5% in 2017."

In other words their economy is in very poor shape.

So forgive my cynical attitude to his 'advice' to the UK to remain in the EU but he clearly sees the UK, free from the EU constraints that shackle his own economy, as a powerful threat. So of course he wants us to remain. Oh should I also mention he is up for re-election this year?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Those nasty European bullies have been inflicting their nasty food safety standards for far too long.

The EU are not doing a very good job of it for us then are they, who remembers the horse meat scandal in recent years.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Another boring and irrelevant rant from you.

More personal abuse from you and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Let's take one point at a time. Explain how Germany is skint?

You lie so much you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you.

Misrepresenting someone is the worst kind of lying. We can all see you for what you are.

Your exact words were: Maybe go shout at the Germans, French or Italians to give more. Oh wait no .. they are skint and in the Eurozone ..."

Come on, explain in what way Germany is skint. This time without the boring and irrelevant smokescreen of lies.

When are you going to provide this evidence that Germany is skint?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

" Another boring and irrelevant rant from you.

More personal abuse from you and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Let's take one point at a time. Explain how Germany is skint?

You lie so much you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you.

Misrepresenting someone is the worst kind of lying. We can all see you for what you are.

Your exact words were: Maybe go shout at the Germans, French or Italians to give more. Oh wait no .. they are skint and in the Eurozone ..."

Come on, explain in what way Germany is skint. This time without the boring and irrelevant smokescreen of lies.

When are you going to provide this evidence that Germany is skint?"

Are you spamming the thread? You already posted that comment earlier?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I know right. Those bloody Foreigners - staying over there and having an opinion. They need to butt out so us Brits can make silly-headed choices on our own.

That goes for the Governor of The Bank of England too. It's a Johnny Foreigner conspiracy!!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Another boring and irrelevant rant from you.

More personal abuse from you and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Let's take one point at a time. Explain how Germany is skint?

You lie so much you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you.

Misrepresenting someone is the worst kind of lying. We can all see you for what you are.

Your exact words were: Maybe go shout at the Germans, French or Italians to give more. Oh wait no .. they are skint and in the Eurozone ..."

Come on, explain in what way Germany is skint. This time without the boring and irrelevant smokescreen of lies.

When are you going to provide this evidence that Germany is skint?

Are you spamming the thread? You already posted that comment earlier?

I'm patiently waiting for an answer. Have you got one?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Those nasty European bullies have been inflicting their nasty food safety standards for far too long.

The EU are not doing a very good job of it for us then are they, who remembers the horse meat scandal in recent years. "

Of course - yet another scandal that good, honest Brits were in no way a part of!! It's time for Blight to throw off the saddle and bareback our way to Freedom!!!

Francois force fed me hooves last time I saw him.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"The E.U Referendum is the most important decision this country will make in the last 50 years and clearly we all have to weigh and consider the arguments on both sides.

We could categorise that debate into three main areas.The Economy, Immigration, and Sovereignty.

But to suggest we shouldn't 'personalise' that debate by mentioning individuals is a bit like saying we shouldn't mention Hitler when discussing the Holocaust or the genecide of the third reich.

So let's have that debate but let's not be frightened to highlight the views of those who helped fashion the situation we now find ourselves in.

"
I agree with your first statement, after that we part company.

Firstly Sovereignty is the only issue, everything else is misdirection and is being used to muddy the waters around this single issue.

If we secede from the EU full Sovereignty returns to the UK and that includes the right to set our own immigration policies (within limits [I'll get to them in a minute]). If we stay in the EU we accept that we will increasingly cede sovereignty from Westminster to Brussels and the EU.

That is the whole debate, nothing else.

We pay into the EU budget and adopt EU working directives and unrestricted movement of EU citizens to get unrestricted access to the biggest single market in the world. If we leave the EU we will still have to pay in to the EU budget and comply with EU directives to get that access.

If we refuse then we will lose that access and all the jobs that based here because we have access to that market. Clearly this will not happen so nearly all economic arguments are red herrings.

However if we do leave the EU we will lose all the grants we get from Brussels and our place at the haggle table.

Question is: Is the sovereignty we regain worth more than losing our place at the barter table and our share of the budget?

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

https://www.fabswingers.com/content/forum-rules

Links to other sites

We have restrictions on where you can link to because otherwise people end up posting spam or links to places that host malware/spyware and it's bad for our users.

You can link to:

Any well recognised news site (bbc, times, telegraph, sun, notw, cnn and all the rest)

Youtube

Lovehoney

Wikipedia

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I know right. Those bloody Foreigners - staying over there and having an opinion. They need to butt out so us Brits can make silly-headed choices on our own.

That goes for the Governor of The Bank of England too. It's a Johnny Foreigner conspiracy!!!! "

Why do you assume that people who want to leave the EU have this 'Johnny Foreigner' mentality?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Are you allowed to post links to local newspapers?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Are you spamming the thread? You already posted that comment earlier?"

Of course he is spamming. Its what he does. He takes words out of context, changes the meaning and then picks one small part to be clever about. And then winds people up until they bite back and get banned. In YouTube he would be called a Troll (but I couldn't possibly comment). I have answered his question. Indeed he quoted my earlier answer when asking the question twice more.... most odd..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Are you spamming the thread? You already posted that comment earlier?

You haven't answered it. Is Germany skint? That's what you claimed

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"I know right. Those bloody Foreigners - staying over there and having an opinion. They need to butt out so us Brits can make silly-headed choices on our own.

That goes for the Governor of The Bank of England too. It's a Johnny Foreigner conspiracy!!!! "

Funny you should mention the Bank of England, the former governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King thinks the Eurozone is doomed to failure and Britain would be better off leaving the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/02/28/mervyn-king-the-eurozone-is-doomed

Oh and the chairman of Lloyds bank too...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3271983/European-Union-change-no-compelling-economic-argument-stay-warns-Lloyds-bank-chairman.html

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I know right. Those bloody Foreigners - staying over there and having an opinion. They need to butt out so us Brits can make silly-headed choices on our own.

That goes for the Governor of The Bank of England too. It's a Johnny Foreigner conspiracy!!!!

Why do you assume that people who want to leave the EU have this 'Johnny Foreigner' mentality?"

Not all do.

but some people (on this thread, in particular) have it so bad it's laughable.

Reminds me of Melchett:

Captain Darling - "So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshall Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies. "

General Melchett - "Filthy hun weasels, fighting their dirty underhand war!"

Captain Darling - "And fortunately, one of our spies... "

General Melchett - "Splendid fellows, brave heroes risking life and limb for Blighty!"

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

"Are you allowed to post links to local newspapers? "

Yeah

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Are you spamming the thread? You already posted that comment earlier?

I don't see an answer, direct or otherwise, in your previous posts. I will say you have posted some interesting points and areas to look into, but no definitive answer as to the economic situation of Germany, who happen to be the largest economy, forgive me if my research is wrong, contributing to the EU, before France, Italy and the U.K.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I know right. Those bloody Foreigners - staying over there and having an opinion. They need to butt out so us Brits can make silly-headed choices on our own.

That goes for the Governor of The Bank of England too. It's a Johnny Foreigner conspiracy!!!!

Funny you should mention the Bank of England, the former governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King thinks the Eurozone is doomed to failure and Britain would be better off leaving the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/02/28/mervyn-king-the-eurozone-is-doomed

Oh and the chairman of Lloyds bank too...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3271983/European-Union-change-no-compelling-economic-argument-stay-warns-Lloyds-bank-chairman.html

Meanwhile the REAL governor of the bank of England was saying this today:

The governor of the Bank of England has said that the possibility of Britain leaving the EU is the "biggest domestic risk to financial stability".

In a hearing before the Treasury Committee, Mark Carney said that the economy would be affected by the uncertainty created by an exit vote.

But Mr Carney emphasised the Bank was not taking sides in the EU referendum.

However, Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg accused him of making "pro-EU" comments.

The governor told the committee that an exit posed the biggest "domestic" risk in part because there could be uncertainty over such things as investment, household spending, and the impact on sterling.

Mr Carney said: ""It is the biggest domestic risk to financial stability. I would say that in my judgment the global risks, including from China, are bigger than the domestic risks."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35751919

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I know right. Those bloody Foreigners - staying over there and having an opinion. They need to butt out so us Brits can make silly-headed choices on our own.

That goes for the Governor of The Bank of England too. It's a Johnny Foreigner conspiracy!!!!

Funny you should mention the Bank of England, the former governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King thinks the Eurozone is doomed to failure and Britain would be better off leaving the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/02/28/mervyn-king-the-eurozone-is-doomed

Oh and the chairman of Lloyds bank too...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3271983/European-Union-change-no-compelling-economic-argument-stay-warns-Lloyds-bank-chairman.html

Actually Melvyn King says that the monetary union has been a disaster (which I agree with), which will effect the UK whether we leave or not. He doesn't advocate leaving.

The current governor meanwhile.....

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

" Are you spamming the thread? You already posted that comment earlier?

It is probably best to ignore the person if they annoy you then you can't post something with your own hands that will break rules and get you a ban

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I know right. Those bloody Foreigners - staying over there and having an opinion. They need to butt out so us Brits can make silly-headed choices on our own.

That goes for the Governor of The Bank of England too. It's a Johnny Foreigner conspiracy!!!!

Funny you should mention the Bank of England, the former governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King thinks the Eurozone is doomed to failure and Britain would be better off leaving the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/02/28/mervyn-king-the-eurozone-is-doomed

Oh and the chairman of Lloyds bank too...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3271983/European-Union-change-no-compelling-economic-argument-stay-warns-Lloyds-bank-chairman.html

Actually Melvyn King says that the monetary union has been a disaster (which I agree with), which will effect the UK whether we leave or not. He doesn't advocate leaving.

The current governor meanwhile.....

Is a bloody foreigner

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By *uckoo clock OP Couple over a year ago

Merseyside

"The E.U Referendum is the most important decision this country will make in the last 50 years and clearly we all have to weigh and consider the arguments on both sides.

We could categorise that debate into three main areas.The Economy, Immigration, and Sovereignty.

But to suggest we shouldn't 'personalise' that debate by mentioning individuals is a bit like saying we shouldn't mention Hitler when discussing the Holocaust or the genecide of the third reich.

So let's have that debate but let's not be frightened to highlight the views of those who helped fashion the situation we now find ourselves in.

I agree with your first statement, after that we part company.

Firstly Sovereignty is the only issue, everything else is misdirection and is being used to muddy the waters around this single issue.

That is the whole debate, nothing else.

If we refuse then we will lose that access and all the jobs that based here because we have access to that market. Clearly this will not happen so nearly all economic arguments are red herrings.

However if we do leave the EU we will lose all the grants we get from Brussels and our place at the haggle table.

Question is: Is the sovereignty we regain worth more than losing our place at the barter table and our share of the budget? "

And I agree with you in that Sovereignty is all.

And to regain it is worth any price in my opinion so that at least we have a greater say in controlling our own destiny.

The alternative of an all consuming all controlling unelected unaccountable corrupt beuracracy does not bear thinking about !!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Firstly Sovereignty is the only issue, everything else is misdirection and is being used to muddy the waters around this single issue.

That is the whole debate, nothing else.

If we refuse then we will lose that access and all the jobs that based here because we have access to that market. Clearly this will not happen so nearly all economic arguments are red herrings.

However if we do leave the EU we will lose all the grants we get from Brussels and our place at the haggle table.

Question is: Is the sovereignty we regain worth more than losing our place at the barter table and our share of the budget?"

Well yes you are clearly correct it is all about Sovereignty and nothing else. All other matters cede from that point.

I am sorry but there is a 'however'...

* If we leave we are NOT obliged to keep paying in and adopt directives and free movement of people. That is the 'Norway' or 'Swiss' models that are red herrings in a sea of fear. Do the USA or China or even Greenland pay in to access this huge market? Nope.

* As for us losing jobs if we leave? Well being IN the EU didn't stop Ford shifting all car production to Germany and van production to Turkey. It also didn't stop Peugeot from shifting car production from Ryton to Slovakia for the 207. Those two moves cost over 6,000 jobs. Has our steel industry been protected by the EU? Has it hell.

* As for the 'grants' we get? Its our own money coming back to us via the EU labyrinth of regulation. We pay in (after our Blair reduced rebate) some £13 Billion and we get back some £4.5 Billion (roughly). So nett we pay in about £9 Billion (roughly). If we came out of the EU we would save not £9 Billion but £13 Billion. Or £250 Million a week. Every week.

So in answer to your very sensible question "Is it worth it" I would say yes as the 'share of the budget' is our money anyway (if you mean the grants) and we only have 1/28th representation at the 'Barter Table' where any one can outvote us. We have been defeated 72 times out of 72. Not much to barter with there.

But you make excellent points and ask a very fundamental question.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Are you spamming the thread? You already posted that comment earlier?

You haven't answered it. Is Germany skint? That's what you claimed"

Your exact words were: Maybe go shout at the Germans, French or Italians to give more. Oh wait no .. they are skint and in the Eurozone ..."

Let me help you Chalk. Is Germany skint because it had a trade surplus of 248 billion euros last year?

I know that in your strange world exporting more than you import is a weakness. So perhaps that's their Achilles heel?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Tying the currency of a fluctuating seasonal tourist economy to that of major industrial nations was an obvious mistake that those hellbent on European unity ignored and which the Greek people will be paying for, for generations to come. It was a glaringly obvious mistake yet they went ahead with it - like all the disastrous policies of the EU an oncoming car crash but they still persist with the unachievable aims.

Remaining in the EU has been a disaster for the UK that will take decades to get over. We owe it to the future generations NOT to tie them to the shackles of EU dictatorship.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"I know right. Those bloody Foreigners - staying over there and having an opinion. They need to butt out so us Brits can make silly-headed choices on our own.

That goes for the Governor of The Bank of England too. It's a Johnny Foreigner conspiracy!!!!

Funny you should mention the Bank of England, the former governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King thinks the Eurozone is doomed to failure and Britain would be better off leaving the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/02/28/mervyn-king-the-eurozone-is-doomed

Oh and the chairman of Lloyds bank too...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3271983/European-Union-change-no-compelling-economic-argument-stay-warns-Lloyds-bank-chairman.html

Meanwhile the REAL governor of the bank of England was saying this today:

The governor of the Bank of England has said that the possibility of Britain leaving the EU is the "biggest domestic risk to financial stability".

In a hearing before the Treasury Committee, Mark Carney said that the economy would be affected by the uncertainty created by an exit vote.

But Mr Carney emphasised the Bank was not taking sides in the EU referendum.

However, Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg accused him of making "pro-EU" comments.

Mr Carney said: ""It is the biggest domestic risk to financial stability. I would say that in my judgment the global risks, including from China, are bigger than the domestic risks."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35751919"

Yes typical hypocrisy from the government, why are they not now pulling strings in the background like they did to get John Longworth removed as director general from the British chambers of commerce. Bank of England is supposed to be taking a neutral stance on the EU referendum but Mark Carney is allowed to make pro-EU comments????

Yet when the British chamber of commerce takes a neutral stance and John Longworth makes anti-EU comments David Cameron's senior aide Daniel Korski is soon on the phone putting the knife in????

Has Daniel Korski been on the phone putting the knife into Mark Carney today, it does'nt look like it does it, lol. The double standards being displayed by the government on this are really quite shocking.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3481281/Proof-No-10-did-knife-Cameron-s-aide-berated-anti-EU-business-chief-telephone-fate-sealed.html

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well Chalk if that didn't help, perhaps Germany is skint because they balanced their budget last year?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11343836/Germany-balances-budget-for-first-time-in-more-than-40-years.html

On the other hand, no, I don't think they are skint at all, are they? You were just making it up weren't you?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" I don't see an answer, direct or otherwise, in your previous posts. I will say you have posted some interesting points and areas to look into, but no definitive answer as to the economic situation of Germany, who happen to be the largest economy, forgive me if my research is wrong, contributing to the EU, before France, Italy and the U.K. "

My answer was actually quoted in all of his 'questions'. As I pointed out he took a few words out of context, presented them in separation and then asked a non question as it was not what I had said. Why should I answer a non-question? Please read my words just above his spamming and you will see I was referring to the Eurozone as 'skint' not individual countries. I then made it clear THAT was my intention when challenged as I made a particular reference TO the Eurozone again. But the misquoting continues.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Remaining in the EU has been a disaster for the UK that will take decades to get over. We owe it to the future generations NOT to tie them to the shackles of EU dictatorship."

Is being in the top 5 by GDP a disaster? That's where we got as part of the EU. That sort of disaster I can happily live with thanks.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Your exact words were:

Maybe go shout at the Germans, French or Italians to give more. Oh wait no .. they are skint and in the Eurozone ..."

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

Ok can you two just ignore each other please.

Thanks

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Remaining in the EU has been a disaster for the UK that will take decades to get over. We owe it to the future generations NOT to tie them to the shackles of EU dictatorship."

What, specifically, have the disastrous results for the UK been? I'm not seeing them where I live, could you clarify please? Ideally specific examples, rather than "tied to the shackles"...

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By *nfamyMan over a year ago

Goole

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

I really dislike the way it's becoming really politicised and about personalities - it really shouldn't be.

So, on the flipside, reasons to stay: piss Michael Gove off."

Or to piss off David Cameron vote leave

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Remaining in the EU has been a disaster for the UK that will take decades to get over. We owe it to the future generations NOT to tie them to the shackles of EU dictatorship. "

Exactly right. And those who say our growth is BECAUSE of the EU are wrong. As a member of the treasury Select Committee observed:

""Particularly this argument that EU membership reinforces the dynamism of the United Kingdom economy, when the growth rate of the economy is actually faster from 1948 to 1973 that it is from 1973 to 2012."

As even the BBC had to admit:

"He's right - the UK economy grew at an average rate of more than 3% between 1948 and 1973 and only just over 2% from 1973 to 2012."

And of course since the 2008 /09 crash the UK has powered well ahead of the rest of the EU. Even Germany. If the EU is such an engine for growth why is the average unemployment rate IN the rest of the EU some 10% and in the UK it is 5% and falling fast. We have the highest employment rate since the '80s (despite huge immigration from the EU) while the EU and especially the Eurozone declines where the pace of expansion has slackened to 0.4% last spring and an average quarterly rate of 0.3% in the second half of last year. Indeed euro-zone GDP in the final quarter of 2015 was still below its pre-crisis peak of early 2008 whereas America’s was almost 10% above its peak of late 2007. UK growth was 2.7% in 2014 and 2.4% in 2015.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So is the EU on the brink of collapse, as Eurosceptics would have you believe ?

Conservative Euro MEP Daniel Hannan often quotes two indices to show what he describes as the wealth of countries. They are the Legatum prosperity index and the UN Human Development Index. Hannan likes them because Norway and Switzerland occupy the number one and two places.

He keeps very quiet that in the Legatum index Denmark is 3rd, with 5 of the top 10 countries being EU nations; 9 out of the top 20 are EU nations and that the lowest placed EU nation is 53rd of an index containing 142 countries.

In the UN Human Development Index, 25 EU countries are in the top 50 (designated as very high human development) including Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany and Ireland in the top 10. No country in the EU is lower than 63rd out of 188 countries (designated as high human development).

That's an amazingly good record of prosperity and quality of life and a sign of a thriving and civilised community.

Of course the Brexit scaremongers want you to believe that the EU is on the verge of collapse. The reality couldn't be further from the truth.

Anyway, don't believe me - believe the indices that Eurosceptic MEP Hannan uses.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Well yes you are clearly correct it is all about Sovereignty and nothing else. All other matters cede from that point.

I am sorry but there is a 'however'...

But you make excellent points and ask a very fundamental question. "

Forgive me if I jump about a little in answering you.

First Slovakia is not just a member of the EU, it also has the Euro as its currency. Now why would a German company that does most of its business in the Eurozone want to move production to a Eurozone country? Maybe it is because it reduces their currency exchange costs?

Secondly, Greenland is not a country per say, it is an autonomous part of Denmark and although not in the EU it has a special sweetheart deal because Denmark. (Just like the IoM or the Channel Islands.)

The USA and China have limited access to EU markets through bilateral trade deals. However US and Chinese companies have to pay import duties on all imports from China or the USA into Europe. That is why US and Chinese companies that do a lot of business in the EU set up production plants in the EU.

If you really believe that the EU will give us free access to the market if we refuse to keep paying the same amount into EU coffers you are really naive. And when we lose access to that market all the jobs that we have here because they give companies from outside the EU will be moved to EU countries. Because of that we will continue to pay in to the EU and implement EU directives be we vote to stay in or leave. Be we obliged to implement or not.

As I said economic arguments are nothing but red herrings.

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By *anejohnkent6263Couple over a year ago

canterbury

who ever mentioned ....tony blair WAR CRIMINAL SHOULD BE PUT ON TRIAL FOR WAR CRIMES.....fuc-ing liar

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By *verysmileMan over a year ago

Canterbury

Am I the only one who thinks that it really doesn't make a difference in the long term?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

There are bound to be misleading statements about UK industry from some people. So why not take a look at the UK car industry? They comnmissioned research by KPMG to look at the views of the car industry about the EU.

Their report isn't just some bod on a web site trying to mislead you, it's an industry view signed off by Mike Hawes Chief exec of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.

The first words of the report are "Europe is fundamental to the current and future success of the UK automotive industry". In its own words, the report gives "a fact based account of the sector and provides some telling thoughts":

1) The attractiveness of the UK as a place to invest and to do automotive business is clearly underpinned by the UK's influential membership of the EU

2) Access to the single market is fundamental for securing investment into UK vehicle and engine manufacturing and across a highly integrated supply chain

3) Access to the EU market is reflected in the fact that 49% of UK produced vehicles are sold across the largest single market in the world unhindered by any tariffs or costly regulatory barriers

4) The EU's bargaining power in trade negotiations around the world is immense; paving the way for the UK to export over 50% of locally manufactured vehicles to growth markets across the rest of the world

5) Defining technical regulations and product standards at a European level enables the UK to remove complexity and costs and influence the way vehicles are made around the globe

6) Innovation in UK automotive is boosted by significant EU R&D funding. In total approximately £3.5 billion has been awarded to UK business and universities across all sectors to encourage growth

7) Free movement of labour within European borders gives automotive businesses the ability to blend UK and international talent at all levels of industry.

Now what about the proportion of aqutomotive businesses in support of EU memberships? 92% said it was more beneficial to their businesses for the UK to stay in the EU - and sensibly - the majority would like reform in certain areas. The report says that senior executives from all parts of the industry see the EU as beneficial to their businesses and warn of a risk to medium and long term investment if the UK were to leave the EU.

Don't believe me about it, take the word of the SMMT "Europe is fundamental to the current and future success of the UK automotive industry". That's companies that account for 3% of GDP and employ more than 700000 people in the UK.

Don't let Brexit people con you into believing that the motor industry feels we want to be struggling along outside the EU. 92% are for in - don't mess up the job prospects of 700000 people.

You can Google "The UK automotive industry and the EU" if you want a truthful view from the car industry about its future in or out. Don't belive the tall tales of the people who are making it up and have no idea what will help industry and jobs

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Remaining in the EU has been a disaster for the UK that will take decades to get over. We owe it to the future generations NOT to tie them to the shackles of EU dictatorship.

Exactly right. And those who say our growth is BECAUSE of the EU are wrong. As a member of the treasury Select Committee observed:

As even the BBC had to admit:

"He's right - the UK economy grew at an average rate of more than 3% between 1948 and 1973 and only just over 2% from 1973 to 2012."

You cannot use unemployment rates as a comparison. Unfortunately, due to this governments introduction of the 0 hr contracts, these figures are a false representation. Just because somebody has this type of contract doesn't mean they are always in work. Adversely it doesn't mean they are necessarily out of work either. But it has a negative effect on the true figures of unemployment and the rate change in this country.

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By *van ArdenMan over a year ago

Coleford, Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire.

Following the vein of the thread there are three more reasons to leave the EU. They are :

1, David Cameron,

2, George Osborne and

3, Mark Carney.

Please don't fall foul of their lies and propaganda. Vote Leave.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"I know right. Those bloody Foreigners - staying over there and having an opinion. They need to butt out so us Brits can make silly-headed choices on our own.

That goes for the Governor of The Bank of England too. It's a Johnny Foreigner conspiracy!!!!

Funny you should mention the Bank of England, the former governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King thinks the Eurozone is doomed to failure and Britain would be better off leaving the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/02/28/mervyn-king-the-eurozone-is-doomed

Oh and the chairman of Lloyds bank too...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3271983/European-Union-change-no-compelling-economic-argument-stay-warns-Lloyds-bank-chairman.html

Actually Melvyn King says that the monetary union has been a disaster (which I agree with), which will effect the UK whether we leave or not. He doesn't advocate leaving.

The current governor meanwhile.....

I take it you did'nt watch Mervyn Kings interview on the Andrew Marr show last Sunday morning either then?

Not only does he say that monetary union has been a disaster in the EU (and that the Eurozone is destined to blow up in their faces at some point in the near future) he also says political union has been a disaster for them too. Not making a very good case for remaining in is he? Everything he is saying seems to be telling us to vote Leave.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I know right. Those bloody Foreigners - staying over there and having an opinion. They need to butt out so us Brits can make silly-headed choices on our own.

That goes for the Governor of The Bank of England too. It's a Johnny Foreigner conspiracy!!!!

Funny you should mention the Bank of England, the former governor of the bank of England Sir Mervyn King thinks the Eurozone is doomed to failure and Britain would be better off leaving the EU.

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/02/28/mervyn-king-the-eurozone-is-doomed

Oh and the chairman of Lloyds bank too...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3271983/European-Union-change-no-compelling-economic-argument-stay-warns-Lloyds-bank-chairman.html

Actually Melvyn King says that the monetary union has been a disaster (which I agree with), which will effect the UK whether we leave or not. He doesn't advocate leaving.

The current governor meanwhile.....

I take it you did'nt watch Mervyn Kings interview on the Andrew Marr show last Sunday morning either then?

No, I didn't see that particular interview, but I did listen to him on Radio 4 today when he criticised the level of debate and the smokescreens being perpetrated from both sides of the argument. He said very clearly that he hadn't made up his mind how to vote yet, but that Mark Carney had made some very valid points....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There are bound to be misleading statements about UK industry from some people. So why not take a look at the UK car industry? They comnmissioned research by KPMG to look at the views of the car industry about the EU.

Their report isn't just some bod on a web site trying to mislead you, it's an industry view signed off by Mike Hawes Chief exec of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.

1) The attractiveness of the UK as a place to invest and to do automotive business is clearly underpinned by the UK's influential membership of the EU

"
.

Is this the same kpmg that had four senior partners arrested for helping in tax evasion.

Or the same kpmg that somehow missed all the corruption at FIFA!.

Yeah some bods on websites love to mislead alright

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In fact I just googled KPMG scandal.... Ooooo it's a very very long list of... Tax avoiding, corruption, bogus reports, bogus bank audits, pay scandals, bribes...

Yep them boys and girls sure are unbiased in their illegal activities.... There'll fuck over anyone

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Their report isn't just some bod on a web site trying to mislead you, it's an industry view signed off by Mike Hawes Chief exec of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.

1) The attractiveness of the UK as a place to invest and to do automotive business is clearly underpinned by the UK's influential membership of the EU

Is this the same kpmg that had four senior partners arrested for helping in tax evasion.

Or the same kpmg that somehow missed all the corruption at FIFA!.

Yeah some bods on websites love to mislead alright

If you knew anything at all about the structure of consultancy companies you'd realise how silly that statement is. Go and read the report.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"In fact I just googled KPMG scandal.... Ooooo it's a very very long list of... Tax avoiding, corruption, bogus reports, bogus bank audits, pay scandals, bribes...

Yep them boys and girls sure are unbiased in their illegal activities.... There'll fuck over anyone"

Like I said some people love to mislead people on web sites - you've just done that. Go read the report.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"In fact I just googled KPMG scandal.... Ooooo it's a very very long list of... Tax avoiding, corruption, bogus reports, bogus bank audits, pay scandals, bribes...

Yep them boys and girls sure are unbiased in their illegal activities.... There'll fuck over anyone

Like I said some people love to mislead people on web sites - you've just done that. Go read the report."
.

Well a corrupt organisation like KPMG can make any report look good... I mean they made FIFAs finances look legit...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"In fact I just googled KPMG scandal.... Ooooo it's a very very long list of... Tax avoiding, corruption, bogus reports, bogus bank audits, pay scandals, bribes...

Yep them boys and girls sure are unbiased in their illegal activities.... There'll fuck over anyone

Like I said some people love to mislead people on web sites - you've just done that. Go read the report..

Well a corrupt organisation like KPMG can make any report look good... I mean they made FIFAs finances look legit...

You really don't know anything about the structure of consultancies do you? Read the report and then make your mind up.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I've just googled "doors scandal" and lo and behold there's a load of arbitrary crap that seems to imply you have something to do with causing clostridium infections

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"In fact I just googled KPMG scandal.... Ooooo it's a very very long list of... Tax avoiding, corruption, bogus reports, bogus bank audits, pay scandals, bribes...

Yep them boys and girls sure are unbiased in their illegal activities.... There'll fuck over anyone"

Are you saying that Mike Hawes chief exec of the society of motor manufacturers and Traders could have bribed KPMG for a bogus report (the one that Man4you just posted). LOL who'd have thunk it?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"In fact I just googled KPMG scandal.... Ooooo it's a very very long list of... Tax avoiding, corruption, bogus reports, bogus bank audits, pay scandals, bribes...

Yep them boys and girls sure are unbiased in their illegal activities.... There'll fuck over anyone

Are you saying that Mike Hawes chief exec of the society of motor manufacturers and Traders could have bribed KPMG for a bogus report (the one that Man4you just posted). LOL who'd have thunk it?

I think you'll find he's saying there's nothing in it that backs up his point of view so just like you he's making stupid comments about it. Who'd have thought that would happen hey?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

In other news just saw it on Press Preview on sky news on the front page of The Sun Newspaper tomorrow...."The Queen backs Brexit! "

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I've just googled "doors scandal" and lo and behold there's a load of arbitrary crap that seems to imply you have something to do with causing clostridium infections"
.

Oh dear..

I'm simply pointing out to all the bods on their PCs that maybe KPMG isn't quite as honest on occasions as to make them completely reliable on everything they put out.

Who knows, they could be bang on with this report!.

They might also be upto there well known corruption bullshit of lining their own pockets.

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By *quirrelMan over a year ago

East Manchester

Only 5% of UK companies actually trade with the EU, the rest deal with other trading nations, those in the 5% category are multinationals with "private" tax deals with HMRC or companies who stopped training apprentices and started importing skilled workers from within the EU or are new start ups who recruit exclusively from former eastern European countries. Another fact that's not mentioned is that in-work benefits for the low paid is 3 times more than what's paid in unemployment benefits. In the years 2012 to 2015 147,000 crimes were committed by immigrant workers costing our legal system £4.8 million and the deportation of 9,000 immigrants back to their EU countries (some more than once) And Cameron has still not stopped the payment of child benefit to immigrant workers whose children are still in their native countries. Final nail in the EU coffin, the money we pay them is redistributed and some of it is used to fund projects in the uk, but it's only 53% of what we paid them in the first place and every project has to bear the EU logo and an explanation that funding was the result of an EU initiative. With the immigration problems in eastern Europe getting larger and Turkey demanding money and fast tracking of their membership into the EU, should they then be admitted there will potentially be 26 million more members in the EU who will be heading for the UK to claim the free money and healthcare that they believe is their right as EU citizens.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I've just googled "doors scandal" and lo and behold there's a load of arbitrary crap that seems to imply you have something to do with causing clostridium infections.

Oh dear..

I'm simply pointing out to all the bods on their PCs that maybe KPMG isn't quite as honest on occasions as to make them completely reliable on everything they put out.

Who knows, they could be bang on with this report!.

They might also be upto there well known corruption bullshit of lining their own pockets.

So which of the points in the report do you think they have fiddled? Instead of making unsubstantiated claims, come up with some evidence.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"I've just googled "doors scandal" and lo and behold there's a load of arbitrary crap that seems to imply you have something to do with causing clostridium infections"

Hmm, it seems Mrs Cheese was justified to say what she did earlier in the thread, who'd have thunk that too.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I've just googled "doors scandal" and lo and behold there's a load of arbitrary crap that seems to imply you have something to do with causing clostridium infections.

Oh dear..

I'm simply pointing out to all the bods on their PCs that maybe KPMG isn't quite as honest on occasions as to make them completely reliable on everything they put out.

Who knows, they could be bang on with this report!.

They might also be upto there well known corruption bullshit of lining their own pockets.

So which of the points in the report do you think they have fiddled? Instead of making unsubstantiated claims, come up with some evidence."
.

Which one the car report or FIFA's books

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm just running through FIFA's financial books right now... It seems the originals weren't very accurate until scrutinised later on by somebody other than KPMG.

It's a fascinating read

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm just running through FIFA's financial books right now... It seems the originals weren't very accurate until scrutinised later on by somebody other than KPMG.

It's a fascinating read"

You should tell us some of your bed time stories about your time at conferences on the climate and phony research papers.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I've just googled "doors scandal" and lo and behold there's a load of arbitrary crap that seems to imply you have something to do with causing clostridium infections.

Oh dear..

I'm simply pointing out to all the bods on their PCs that maybe KPMG isn't quite as honest on occasions as to make them completely reliable on everything they put out.

Who knows, they could be bang on with this report!.

They might also be upto there well known corruption bullshit of lining their own pockets.

So which of the points in the report do you think they have fiddled? Instead of making unsubstantiated claims, come up with some evidence..

Which one the car report or FIFA's books

I forgot your short attention span

Come again...

. That's not the first time you've heard that line

It is from you thank God

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By *vsnikkiTV/TS over a year ago

Limavady

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

Jerry Adams and Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein too.

He's just as evil but I think you mean Jerry's cousin, Gerry!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So, on the flipside, reasons to stay: piss Michael Gove off."

And Boris.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

Jerry Adams and Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein too.

He's just as evil but I think you mean Jerry's cousin, Gerry!"

Yeah I was watching Tom and Jerry on the telly when I made that post and got distracted.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Well yes you are clearly correct it is all about Sovereignty and nothing else. All other matters cede from that point.

I am sorry but there is a 'however'...

But you make excellent points and ask a very fundamental question.

Forgive me if I jump about a little in answering you.

As I said economic arguments are nothing but red herrings."

Well the point I was making was that being in the EU didn't stop two major automotive companies dumping thousands of British workers when it suited them. And Peugeot is French but that is by the by. The argument for staying in the EU to protect jobs is fatally flawed by this sort of action by multi nationals.

Yes the US goods will pay a tariff to access the EU. But you forgot to mention that EU goods will conversely pay a US tariff to access that market. Likewise China. Our position is that (given the EU itself buys and sells nothing) individual countries will wish to keep the value of their trade with the UK somewhat more than we need theirs. We are at worst of equal standing with those countries and arguably in a better position. Given German car manufacturers sell us twice as much in value as we sell them do you really think Mrs Merkel will allow the EU to put tariffs on any UK goods?

And as for being obliged to pay in to the EU and take Directives I go back to China and the USA and every other non-EU country (bar Norway and Switzerland). They do not pay anything to trade with the EU. And neither will we have to. It is not being naive at all its a trading fact the key players in the EU will want to maintain exports to the UK which is the second largest in the EU and 5th largest in the world.

And foreign companies have located to the UK because of many factors only one of which is because we are in the EU. Language, finance, technology, skillbase, construction costs and tax regimes. Nissan, Toyota, Honda and even BMW have all said they have no intention of relocating factories away from the UK. Nissan Sunderland is their most efficient automotive plant in the world and they started production of the premium Infinity Q30 only last year. A decision that could easily have been reversed or delayed after the Referendum was called.

And one last thought. Why does the UK attract more external investment than any other EU country, twice as much as Germany, if it is just because we are in the EU?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" You cannot use unemployment rates as a comparison. Unfortunately, due to this governments introduction of the 0 hr contracts, these figures are a false representation. Just because somebody has this type of contract doesn't mean they are always in work. Adversely it doesn't mean they are necessarily out of work either. But it has a negative effect on the true figures of unemployment and the rate change in this country."

Unemployment rates are an established comparator used by economists of how one economy is performing against another so it perfectly fair especially when the rate is twice as bad in the rest of this wonderland called the EU. Tell the 50% young unemployed in Spain how great the Eurozone is ...

You say it is the zero hours contracts that are making the numbers better. In 2015 they made up 2.4% of the 31 million employed or conversely 1.1% of the UK population. Interestingly 60% were happy with them and actually choose these contracts for the flexibility and appeal to working mothers and students especially. The CIPD's research (in 2013) suggested voluntary sector employers are most likely to use zero-hours contracts (34% of them) followed by the public sector (24%) and lastly the private sector (17%).

And lastly it wasn't this Government or the last Coalition that introduced zero hours contracts. In fact they blossomed under the last Labour Government. Under the National Minimum Wage Act 1998, workers operating under a zero-hour contract on stand-by time, on-call time, and downtime must be paid the national minimum wage for hours worked.

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By *ezebelWoman over a year ago

North of The Wall - youll need your vest

Can the people who are bitching at each other on every thread like this drop it please - Ive removed all the personal digs.

Also Ive removed posts with the links that arent allowed.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"In fact I just googled KPMG scandal.... Ooooo it's a very very long list of... Tax avoiding, corruption, bogus reports, bogus bank audits, pay scandals, bribes...

Yep them boys and girls sure are unbiased in their illegal activities.... There'll fuck over anyone"

You know sometimes, just sometimes, work by accountancy firms isn't corrupt, the work of all evil, "fucking anyone over". It's not all a big conspiracy. Google "[insert random word] scandal" and you'll come up with a load of shit. Google "KPMG report" and, lo and behold, you'll come up with all their other work, the vast majority, which isn't a scandal. Funny that.

As usual this thread has depressed the hell out of me because some absolute raging morons are going to get as much of a say as me on something as important as the EU.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

The discussion seems to revolve around big numbers, big speeches and big headlines. These are somewhat irrelevant and geared only to have an emotional impact.

How many people sit down and actually consider how an EU exit will affect their day to day lives? This is really all that should be considered because the impact of being in (or out) is about what it means to ordinary people on a day to day basis.

The consequences on us as the general public is what should be driving the debate and this is not happening. Any discussion on that level is being labelled project fear in order to try to stifle the discussion.

I want to know the direct consequences of a BREXIT on the ordinary people of the U.K. I also want to know what kind of BREXIT is being urged? Any kind of future trade with our immediate neighbours is going to require us to adopt virtually all of the EU Rules and Regulations anyway. Are we planning an isolationist stance on the pretext of "Closing are boarders and making Britain grate" again?

We all need more details about the effects that an exit will have on our day to day lives. The big numbers and big speeches are just a smokescreen.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The discussion seems to revolve around big numbers, big speeches and big headlines. These are somewhat irrelevant and geared only to have an emotional impact.

We all need more details about the effects that an exit will have on our day to day lives. The big numbers and big speeches are just a smokescreen."

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Well yes you are clearly correct it is all about Sovereignty and nothing else. All other matters cede from that point.

I am sorry but there is a 'however'...

But you make excellent points and ask a very fundamental question.

Forgive me if I jump about a little in answering you.

As I said economic arguments are nothing but red herrings.

And one last thought. Why does the UK attract more external investment than any other EU country, twice as much as Germany, if it is just because we are in the EU?"

Excellent post.

I would add that I can't see French wine makers being too happy about the EU whacking a tariff Scotch in the knowledge that Britain (French wine's biggest export market) will do the same to Champagne and Burgundy Etc.

The list could go on and on.

As I have said on other threads. Should Britain vote to leave it will be the EU scrambling to Britain for a deal, not the other way around.

Or more likely forcing a second referendum to get the "right answer"

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By *van ArdenMan over a year ago

Coleford, Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire.

I absolutely agree with you Ruby. Far from clarifying the situation from both sides and providing the electorate with data on which to make a judged opinion we are being fed with sound bites.

They are all treating us the electorate like idiots. The latest insertion by Carney proves the point. His agenda is the continuation of the growth and expansion of his powerful friends in the banking sector. He shows complete disregard to any other considerations.

Let's not forget that the collapse of most western economies and the subsequent worst world recession in history was caused by the collapse of Lehman Brothers bank.

Most of the World's economies are still suffering to a degree from Lehman Brothers legacy.

Mr Carney please don't scare the electorate into voting to remain in the EU.

When you retire Mr Carney you will be flying back home to Canada to enjoy the rest of your life. We in the UK will be suffering the consequences of remaining in a failed organisation that takes everything and gives nothing.

Just look at what's happening in Europe today with migration. Six months ago Merkel was prepared to take in a million immigrants into Germany. What happened? Merkel is doomed to political annihilation in Germany's forthcoming elections and so she has decided that welcoming so many people was a mistake. The solution is to pressure or bribe the Turkish government to allow the immigrants to remain in Turkey.

And as a sweetener the Turks will be allowed to settle in the UK. Sounds like a good idea doesn't it.

The sooner we leave the EU the better as far as I am concerned.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I absolutely agree with you Ruby. Far from clarifying the situation from both sides and providing the electorate with data on which to make a judged opinion we are being fed with sound bites.

Let's not forget that the collapse of most western economies and the subsequent worst world recession in history was caused by the collapse of Lehman Brothers bank.

Most of the World's economies are still suffering to a degree from Lehman Brothers legacy.

Mr Carney please don't scare the electorate into voting to remain in the EU.

And as a sweetener the Turks will be allowed to settle in the UK. Sounds like a good idea doesn't it.

The sooner we leave the EU the better as far as I am concerned.

good post, very much worth a read, well said and a good bit of truth

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I absolutely agree with you Ruby. Far from clarifying the situation from both sides and providing the electorate with data on which to make a judged opinion we are being fed with sound bites.

Let's not forget that the collapse of most western economies and the subsequent worst world recession in history was caused by the collapse of Lehman Brothers bank.

Most of the World's economies are still suffering to a degree from Lehman Brothers legacy.

Mr Carney please don't scare the electorate into voting to remain in the EU.

And as a sweetener the Turks will be allowed to settle in the UK. Sounds like a good idea doesn't it.

The sooner we leave the EU the better as far as I am concerned.

If you actually watch the recording of the select committee, I think Carney is being incredibly unfairly reported on this one. But you will have just taken what you've seen in the papers as gospel I suppose.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Does anyone actually still read or believe in newspapers!!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The Queen has been hailed as a backer of Brexit after details emerged of an extraordinary alleged bust-up between her and Nick Clegg over Europe. The Scottish Sun says the 89-year-old monarch firmly told passionate pro-European Mr Clegg that she believed the EU was heading in the wrong direction.

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By *ulfilthmentMan over a year ago

Just around the corner

"Get us out of the EU, I will be voting out

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3376935/Put-suffering-Britons-PM-Floods-cost-5-8bn-exactly-giving-fight-global-warming-overseas.html"

Or stay in and petition MPs to get some benefit from all the money we pay to the EU?

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By *ulfilthmentMan over a year ago

Just around the corner

"The Queen has been hailed as a backer of Brexit after details emerged of an extraordinary alleged bust-up between her and Nick Clegg over Europe. The Scottish Sun says the 89-year-old monarch firmly told passionate pro-European Mr Clegg that she believed the EU was heading in the wrong direction."

Or Clegg could say whatever he likes without fear of contradiction?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

A perfect example of what you said in the post before this one.

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By *alandriaTV/TS over a year ago

Nottingham

"Tony Blair & Peter Mandlesson are urging us to stay in !!

Jerry Adams and Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein too.

Plus the Scot Nats

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This will please all those railing against unelected officials in their expensive cars and huge expenses..........oh wait

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

This will please all those railing against unelected officials in their expensive cars and huge expenses..........oh wait

Ha!

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Excellent post.

The list could go on and on.

As I have said on other threads. Should Britain vote to leave it will be the EU scrambling to Britain for a deal, not the other way around.

Or more likely forcing a second referendum to get the "right answer""

Really? An excellent post? I think not!

To start with, what you call an excellent post was 3 posts, 2 from a person who is pushing a non issue to advance his own personal agenda and 1 from me which points out the error of his position. If you took the time to read my posts (rather than what you think my posts say) in this thread you would realise that I have said there is only 1 real issue in the referendum debate that is Sovereignty. All economic and regulation arguments are red herrings because in or out that status quo will not change.

You would further realise that I have not made any comment about how we should vote only that we all need to understand that there is only 1 issue and what we gain and lose by voting either way.

I have to wonder why you and others feel it so necessary to divert peoples attention from the real issue. Which of the 2 reasons behind such misdirection explains your position, si I ask you and the people who keep repeating spurious non issues:

Are you A. So corrupt that you believe it is acceptable to use any tactic to get the result you want? (Just like Blair lying to win a vote to go to war! I seem to remember many calling him a war criminal for that!)

Or B. So blinkered, indoctrinated and brainwashed that no matter what is said or how it is said all you can do is nod your head in agreement with or repeat parrot fashion what you have been told by those who fall into category A!?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Excellent post.

The list could go on and on.

As I have said on other threads. Should Britain vote to leave it will be the EU scrambling to Britain for a deal, not the other way around.

Or more likely forcing a second referendum to get the "right answer"

Really? An excellent post? I think not!

You would further realise that I have not made any comment about how we should vote only that we all need to understand that there is only 1 issue and what we gain and lose by voting either way.

If all that really matters in this referendum is sovereignty as you say then Brexit will easily win. Tony Benn campaigned for a Leave vote in the 1970's saying that the EU would destroy parliamentary democracy and erode our sovereignty. Turns out he was right as the situation is much worse now than it was in the 1970's. Tony Benn remained consistent and true to his word on his opinions on the EU his whole life and for the whole duration of his political career. The Labour leave group and people like Kate Hoey, John Mills and George Galloway will be campaigning on the same issue this time of the erosion of our sovereignty. The EU is taking the totalitarian tip toe approach and chipping away at our sovereignty bit by bit, piece by piece until one day it will all be gone and we'll find ourselves in a united states of Europe and look back and think, how did we get here? We must get out the EU now and reclaim the sovereignty of our country.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Kate Hoey and George Galloway

You love trotting them buggers out, don't you? As if it proves somehow that the Brexit campaign is politically balanced. It really isn't, get over it.

There's no telling where Tony Benn would be at this point in time - most of his fellow travellers (Corbyn included) have changed their position in recent years. I am absolutely certain what his views on UKip would be though.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I presume that all those advocating "regaining our sovereignty" are also keen for Britain to leave NATO? After all, which issue is more important in sovereignty terms that the ability to make our own decisions over whether to go to war?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"If all that really matters in this referendum is sovereignty as you say then Brexit will easily win. Tony Benn campaigned for a Leave vote in the 1970's saying that the EU would destroy parliamentary democracy and erode our sovereignty. Turns out he was right as the situation is much worse now than it was in the 1970's. Tony Benn remained consistent and true to his word on his opinions on the EU his whole life and for the whole duration of his political career. The Labour leave group and people like Kate Hoey, John Mills and George Galloway will be campaigning on the same issue this time of the erosion of our sovereignty. The EU is taking the totalitarian tip toe approach and chipping away at our sovereignty bit by bit, piece by piece until one day it will all be gone and we'll find ourselves in a united states of Europe and look back and think, how did we get here? We must get out the EU now and reclaim the sovereignty of our country. "

Again I find myself having to take issue with you. Not over your position but over the reasoning behind that position.

I was always a fan of Tony Benn, in fact I went to many of his talks and sat enthralled as he sat on a stage talking while taking drinks from his thermos flask. However I always thought he was disingenuous about his reasons for wanting out of Europe.

You describe the EU as totalitarian, I cant see that. It does move government a further step from the people, but it is just as democratic or undemocratic as our system in the UK. We do not elect governments, we elect MP's who are then free to choose whoever they like as PM to form a government. Then the PM chooses whoever they want as ministers who they can sack at any time. And over time the leaders of the political parties in Westminster get together to choose members of the privy council (who keep that post for life). With Europe each countries electorate elects its MEP's, its national government chooses an EU commissioner. (An extra commissioner is proposed by the heads of state of all EU countries and elected by the European Parliament.) The president of the Council of Ministers (who set the political agenda) changes every 6 months with every country taking its turn in charge. The UK national system and the EU system sound very similar to me. In fact I would have to say that although convoluted the EU system is probably more democratic that the UK system (but that's just my opinion).

I fully agree with what you say about power being transferred over time from Westminster to Brussels. But I for one am not convinced this is a bad thing. We know that the smaller an electoral base the more radical the policies will be. We know that the larger a market is the more influence it has and the stronger its currency will be. We know that in 2000 the exchange rate was 1.8 Euros to the £ and the $ was trading at $2 to the £ and $1 to the Euro. Today those trading rates are £1 to 1.3 Euros, $1.4 to £1 and $1.1 to 1 Euro. Clearly over time the £ is loosing value against the $ and Euro, while the Euro is gaining value against the $. Maybe being a small but influential part of a very big thing is better than being totally independent. Maybe loss of sovereignty is a price worth paying. Maybe those who are leading the Brexit campaign are desperate to keep power no matter the cost to the nation.

Conversely, maybe Sovereignty and what it brings in way of border controls is more important than any amount of economic muscle.

For myself I am a europhile, however I am British and believe we need to be strong. Europe's borders are leaking like a sieve and this worries me to the point that I may well vote out to secure our borders, that is if I can be convinced our country has the will and our politicians have the backbone to do what is required to protect them.

So far I am not convinced of that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Two real reasons.....

Costs us a fortune

No control over our own laws

I could go on and on!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If we do...

The EU will still be there and will help if we wanted it....they know what's good for them.

The business will still be there....

We will have more control of our selves.

Our economy will grow at a more sustainable and better long term rate.

Our resources will have less of a drain.

..... the list could continue.

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By *icentiousCouple over a year ago

Up on them there hills

He he, they're going to give my old mum a vote, she only knows two countries in the EU and one of them is Brussels.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I presume that all those advocating "regaining our sovereignty" are also keen for Britain to leave NATO? After all, which issue is more important in sovereignty terms that the ability to make our own decisions over whether to go to war?"

The British Parliament decides when and if we go to war. Not NATO. We are obliged to come to the assistance of a fellow NATO member if they are attacked. Just as others are obliged to assist us. But that is not the same as 'going to war'. We didn't go to war in Syria when the Yanks wanted us to because the British Parliament said 'No Thanks' (and rightly so).

The Defence of the Realm is safely in the hands of our politically independent Military overseen by Parliament. The EU have no say now but DO have that ambition for OUR forces to come under THEIR control. And every time the EU has an ambition it makes damn sure it gets it.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/jean-claude-juncker-calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary

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By *isexmistressWoman over a year ago

Prestwich

The EU is incapable of real and meaningfull reform so why be in something that in all likelyhood is going to collapse?

Thank god we are not in the Euro( just look to Ireland,Spain,Portugal)

How long till Greece defaults again?

and now Turkey want nearly £5bn for Merkels titanic borders blunder!

The EU needs to ditch its glass house political aspirations and focus on TRADE TRADE TRADE...

I wouldnt trust them to run the only whelk stall in a seaside town addicted to whelks.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Without wishing to Hijack the Thread can I ask if anyone would actually vote to join the EU on June 23rd if we were not members?

(Mods if this breaks rules I can start another Thread)

I ask because if it is not worth joining why would one wish to remain?

Graucho Marx once observed: "I would not wish to join a club who would have someone like me as a member"

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Without wishing to Hijack the Thread can I ask if anyone would actually vote to join the EU on June 23rd if we were not members?

(Mods if this breaks rules I can start another Thread)

I ask because if it is not worth joining why would one wish to remain?

Graucho Marx once observed: "I would not wish to join a club who would have someone like me as a member"

Excellent question!

And my answer would have to be 'no'.

However we would be living in a vastly different country to the one we are living in now and that vote would be guided by a single factor and that is the problems the EU is having attempting to secure its southern borders. If there was not that crisis then I would be voting 'yes' in the full knowledge that I would be giving up the £ at the same time as joining the EU.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The EU is incapable of real and meaningfull reform so why be in something that in all likelyhood is going to collapse?

Thank god we are not in the Euro( just look to Ireland,Spain,Portugal)

How long till Greece defaults again?

and now Turkey want nearly £5bn for Merkels titanic borders blunder!

The EU needs to ditch its glass house political aspirations and focus on TRADE TRADE TRADE...

I wouldnt trust them to run the only whelk stall in a seaside town addicted to whelks.

18 minutes into this 'Daily Politics' programme makes the point about the EU / migration / Turkey rather well:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b072fxgv/daily-politics-04032016

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