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The future
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"I've been given this alot of thought recently what with all the different threads from EU to humankind to pensions to where would you live to where your going on holiday!.. Well there all kinda linked by the Paris accord which became an intentional agreement to limit temperature increase to 2 degrees but and the wording is clear there must be exceptional effort into limiting warming to 1.5 degrees and this would mean 0 c02 emissions by around 2030(14) years away or 0 emissions by 2050 (34) years away!. It would appear were being very dishonest(even with ourselves) to a large amount of people about what the future holds, because the obvious trait of the wording means those cruises down the Norwegian fjords the weekends in Barcelona and the game of golf in Dubai is going to have to go!. The implications of not meeting the target of 2 degrees means hundreds of millions displaced or let's be honest dieing. Having cake and eating it is a brilliant bit of morality but clearly not attainable!... . . . So the real question is who's aware of the realities of the Paris accord and it's implications and what could be done to improve peoples awareness." Most people probably aren't even aware of the Paris accord or know what it means. I think the only thing that would improve its awareness is if the politicians put it higher up on the agenda and the media give it more coverage. They all seem to have more pressing matters at hand though like you say the EU referendum here, the migrant crisis in Europe, and you have Donald Trump and the presidential elections dominating the airwaves in America. In the middle east you still have the Israel/Palestine issue and isis terrorism and the war in Syria. So with all this going on in the world climate change doesn't seem to get much airtime. | |||
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"I've been given this alot of thought recently what with all the different threads from EU to humankind to pensions to where would you live to where your going on holiday!.. Well there all kinda linked by the Paris accord which became an intentional agreement to limit temperature increase to 2 degrees but and the wording is clear there must be exceptional effort into limiting warming to 1.5 degrees and this would mean 0 c02 emissions by around 2030(14) years away or 0 emissions by 2050 (34) years away!. It would appear were being very dishonest(even with ourselves) to a large amount of people about what the future holds, because the obvious trait of the wording means those cruises down the Norwegian fjords the weekends in Barcelona and the game of golf in Dubai is going to have to go!. The implications of not meeting the target of 2 degrees means hundreds of millions displaced or let's be honest dieing. Having cake and eating it is a brilliant bit of morality but clearly not attainable!... . . . So the real question is who's aware of the realities of the Paris accord and it's implications and what could be done to improve peoples awareness." What will be the financial implications to me when we miss the targets? | |||
"There,s no Future " Just proved you wrong.  | |||
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"Just like us in Fabland and millions apone millions of other people,all using our little electrical divides.All of which need power to charge them up...day in,day out,without a thought.The power as to come from somewhere.Wish they would make a phone what would allow the sun to charge it up,just like some of the calculators.Then if needed a mains top up. " We need sun to be able to charge them though? I've seen a bike thing that can charge a whole house apprently, it was on fb though so not sure if it's real or works. | |||
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"Just like us in Fabland and millions apone millions of other people,all using our little electrical divides.All of which need power to charge them up...day in,day out,without a thought.The power as to come from somewhere.Wish they would make a phone what would allow the sun to charge it up,just like some of the calculators.Then if needed a mains top up. " . Fear not! We'll soon be enjoying Chinese style nuclear power! | |||
"It always comes down to money at the end of the day. It would be great to fit solar panels on the roof of every house in the world but who is going to pay for it? " How much CO2 does it take to create 1m2 of solar panel? And how long does it take to become carbon neutral? | |||
"I've been given this alot of thought recently what with all the different threads from EU to humankind to pensions to where would you live to where your going on holiday!.. Well there all kinda linked by the Paris accord which became an intentional agreement to limit temperature increase to 2 degrees but and the wording is clear there must be exceptional effort into limiting warming to 1.5 degrees and this would mean 0 c02 emissions by around 2030(14) years away or 0 emissions by 2050 (34) years away!. It would appear were being very dishonest(even with ourselves) to a large amount of people about what the future holds, because the obvious trait of the wording means those cruises down the Norwegian fjords the weekends in Barcelona and the game of golf in Dubai is going to have to go!. The implications of not meeting the target of 2 degrees means hundreds of millions displaced or let's be honest dieing. Having cake and eating it is a brilliant bit of morality but clearly not attainable!... . . . So the real question is who's aware of the realities of the Paris accord and it's implications and what could be done to improve peoples awareness. What will be the financial implications to me when we miss the targets?" . That's a tough question, there still uming on cap n trade on c02! If it came in it would obviously be penal to the higher emitters (that's basically all of us with the exception of very poor people in the west). The biggest financial costs will be dealing with the fallout from failing the 2 degree limit, I mean were talking somewhere in the region of a billon people affected to a very high degree | |||
"It always comes down to money at the end of the day. It would be great to fit solar panels on the roof of every house in the world but who is going to pay for it? How much CO2 does it take to create 1m2 of solar panel? And how long does it take to become carbon neutral?" .errm yeah The gigantic scale of infrastructure change required is quite frankly staggering and requires absolute precision to come in and produce 0% emissions by 2050. The original agreement let's say gave us a limit on c02 production, as a way of simplifying it we'll call it a 100 pounds of money and we've currently spent 20 pounds already. So no solar panels on roofs won't do it, although it helps | |||
"Just like us in Fabland and millions apone millions of other people,all using our little electrical divides.All of which need power to charge them up...day in,day out,without a thought.The power as to come from somewhere.Wish they would make a phone what would allow the sun to charge it up,just like some of the calculators.Then if needed a mains top up. We need sun to be able to charge them though? I've seen a bike thing that can charge a whole house apprently, it was on fb though so not sure if it's real or works." The calculators at work never see the sun..but they still charge up. | |||
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"Just like us in Fabland and millions apone millions of other people,all using our little electrical divides.All of which need power to charge them up...day in,day out,without a thought.The power as to come from somewhere.Wish they would make a phone what would allow the sun to charge it up,just like some of the calculators.Then if needed a mains top up. We need sun to be able to charge them though? I've seen a bike thing that can charge a whole house apprently, it was on fb though so not sure if it's real or works. The calculators at work never see the sun..but they still charge up. " . You don't need direct sun light just light... Light is energy | |||
"It's designed to fail. It's an excuse to raise taxes. Personally, corporately, and nationally. It will hit nations who manufacture anything the hardest. Typically growing economies. Hit there exports with a huge financial penalty. Stop their manufacturing, stop their growth. Carry on winning. ". To give you an idea about it!. The collapse of the Soviet union basically worked out to around a 8%per annum reduction in c02. We need a reduction of 10%, per annum now | |||
"The biggest problem is the shipping and airline industry has obviously go to go completely as they really can't be electrified, there currently putting their hopes on carbon capture, although this hasn't been invented yet and even if it was, there's huge problems about where you store the carbon once you do invent it!. And all this has to be invented and implemented by sometime between 2050 and 2070" It could be done though. If you look at the pace of change in technology from 1900 to the year 2000 it really was quite staggering. Even between 2000 and now tons of new technology has been invented. Scientists know this is a real problem so they better get their thinking caps on. | |||
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"Just like us in Fabland and millions apone millions of other people,all using our little electrical divides.All of which need power to charge them up...day in,day out,without a thought.The power as to come from somewhere.Wish they would make a phone what would allow the sun to charge it up,just like some of the calculators.Then if needed a mains top up. We need sun to be able to charge them though? I've seen a bike thing that can charge a whole house apprently, it was on fb though so not sure if it's real or works. The calculators at work never see the sun..but they still charge up. " Cool. I don't understand solar power probably. | |||
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"My honest thoughts on this is...mankind will never get to grips with this...we have dug a big hole for ourselves,and we will have to keep on digging,but never get out of the hole. Unless time travel comes along,then go back 300 years to the time before we started digging the hole." I'm more optimistic about it. I think education is key to this. In schools today kids are taught to be more environmentally friendly and see that protection of the environment should be more of a priority, it just wasn't the case when I was at school so I think people of our generation don't give it much thought or put any priority on it. I think it will be the next generation of politicians who really decide to tackle this head on in a meaningful way. I just hope the technology has moved on enough by then to solve some of these problems we face today. | |||
"My honest thoughts on this is...mankind will never get to grips with this...we have dug a big hole for ourselves,and we will have to keep on digging,but never get out of the hole. Unless time travel comes along,then go back 300 years to the time before we started digging the hole." Just ban antibiotics and famine relief. Watch the co2 plummet ! | |||
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"The biggest problem is the shipping and airline industry has obviously go to go completely as they really can't be electrified, there currently putting their hopes on carbon capture, although this hasn't been invented yet and even if it was, there's huge problems about where you store the carbon once you do invent it!. And all this has to be invented and implemented by sometime between 2050 and 2070 It could be done though. If you look at the pace of change in technology from 1900 to the year 2000 it really was quite staggering. Even between 2000 and now tons of new technology has been invented. Scientists know this is a real problem so they better get their thinking caps on. " . Oh yeah it could be done, the question is whether it's practical and doable... Ie to give you scale of the goal , you'd need to plant out land mass of about north America every year then cultivate that plantation burn it recover the energy then use that energy plus some more to separate and liquidise the carbon and then store the trillions of tonnes of carbon ridiculously deep underground for thousands of years so it can't leech back into the atmosphere (basically reverse engineering oil on the same scale as what we're extracting it now) | |||
" Climate change started the moment the Earth was born, we have had ice ages and no doubt ages when the temperature was high. A volcano will probably spew more pollutants into the atmosphere in a day than mankind does in a decade. Yorkshire is full of wind turbines that will never produce the amount of energy that was needed to make and install them. But hey, it looks like the government is doing something. " . Do you have any idea at all how much c02 human civilisation produces in a decade?.. I doubt it or you wouldn't actually repeat that statement Anyhow this is a thread about the Paris accord and what we've committed to in the future  | |||
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"My honest thoughts on this is...mankind will never get to grips with this...we have dug a big hole for ourselves,and we will have to keep on digging,but never get out of the hole. Unless time travel comes along,then go back 300 years to the time before we started digging the hole." . By all scientific accounts we really need to deal with it now or at least be honest about what failure means to our childrens lifestyle never mind the 800 million who'll be devastated by a 2 degree rise and let's be honest about the 2 degree rise... It's almost impossible to stop that, every expert going is now saying 3 degrees "could" be the best bet but 4 degrees is more realistic! At 4 degrees above baseline, your looking at a world that you wouldn't even recognise today, I mean the ice age was about 6 degrees below baseline and that allowed for a ice to be about 1.5 miles thick where my house stands! | |||
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"my grandparents had children in the sure and certain fear they would die in the world wars, my parents had me in the sure and certain fear I would die in the nuclear war, I had children in the sure and certain fear that the oil would run out and they would be back to pre industrialisation if the territory didn't kill them, they have now had children in fear of global warming. wonder what my grand children will fear when they have children? Not saying there is no problem, or we shouldn't try to sort it, but the next disaster has been and will always be there. " . Firstly the oil will run out! That's just a factual, as anyways timing is essential? Secondly your not that old, were not taking grandchildren were talking your kids and to an extent yourself. Thirdly the world's already committed to it, so the effects will hit you anyway! | |||
"putting arbitrary caps on temperature rise is about as sensible as trying to ban rainfall. There are greater forces at work determining our climate than man made CO2 emissions. It was much warmer in Medieval times and we weren't using fossil fuels. The planet has been slowly warming since the last glacial period - around 1C per century, though there are wild fluctuations such as the medieval warming period and also mini ice ages. Whilst I'm not denying that we have no impact, I'd suggest it's minimal at worst and at best negligible. Having said that, I don't think it's a good idea to be burning non renewables. Fusion is the solution, significant advances have been made recently and the prospect of a 1:1 reactor is in sight (i.e. liberates as much energy as it uses to produce it). If the world united it's resources in this area, then I'm sure we could achieve viable fusion generation in our lifetime, but sadly, doubt this will come to pass." . Could I just ask you something honestly!... Firstly I'm not an expert, I just read alot of stuff, and the experts I'm reading aren't saying what you saying. A 1 degree rise per century since the glacial period?... How's that work, do you mean a .1 degree rise | |||
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"But I should have died in the nuclear war in the 60's, and never got to have children, the oil wasn't going to last until 2000, so my children would never have children, and global warming will wipe us out before my grandchildren can have children... Do what you can, but it is going to happen anyway, mostly through ignorance and misinformation, but I bet it will be a different crisis that makes the end is nigh for my great grand children." . Who said these things your claiming?... I don't know any serious international committee of scientists in the past that claimed you were going to die in a nuclear war through proven data. I mean that's not to say you might die next month of it?. We don't know the future of nuclear war. However we do know that oil will run out, we can make a very good estimate on how much fossil fuel is left in the ground, we've already done it, now through scientific evidence we can estimate what the rise will be through burning it all... It's whopping, in fact the maths says we've got to leave 90% of fossil fuel in the ground to achieve an under 2 degree rise. . . Don't get me wrong, let's say we just carry on and we've got plenty of fossil fuel for another hundred years but at least be honest about what that means for the 3 to 4 billon people who cant afford the cost of the consequences. The un released a report on the current mega elnino, there looking at serious impact on a 100 million people! The spread of zika through south and north America is being helped by the heavy rainfall and warmer temperatures... This isn't your great grandkids, that idea that it's in the far off future is just wrong! | |||
"A 1 degree rise per century since the glacial period?... How's that work, do you mean a .1 degree rise" It is sort of technically possible, as we are still in the last ice age. as far as we know there has only been ice at the poles for 15% of the time the earth has been here, so this is an unnatural state for the planet, it just happens to suit humans quite nicely, though we were here before it, and probably will be after it too. | |||
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" Could I just ask you something honestly!... Firstly I'm not an expert, I just read alot of stuff, and the experts I'm reading aren't saying what you saying. A 1 degree rise per century since the glacial period?... How's that work, do you mean a .1 degree rise" Sorry, just woken up from a nap and wasn't thinking quite straight  .
I should have said 1/2F per century, which is around 1/4C per century. The last full on glacial period was 11,000 years ago, we're currently still in an ice age (as defined by there being permanent ice cover at the poles), however we are in an inter-glacial period termed the Holocene (I think - I'm doing this from memory, but all the relevant stuff is online).
One of the effects of global warming (yes it really is happening, the debate is about the cause(s) ), is the dilution of the saline pump that powers the Atlantic Conveyor (gulf stream). This is known to switch off suddenly every several thousand years and we are in the zone for it happening again. When this happens, we will get an ice sheet down to the Mediterranean.
So, perversely, global warming is likely to cause the next mini ice age.
Most so called experts, just look at the last few hundred years, along with some dodgy science, and make predictions which so far have all been shown to be erroneous - I have no confidence in them.
The AGW bandwagon is akin to a religion. If you voice dissent, you are labelled a denier, you will get passed over for promotion, will get no funding for research and your work will not be published.
When the CRU emails and FORTRAN code were leaked, I read a lot of it. They were commuting the most heinous of scientific crimes. When the data did not fit their theories, instead of changing their theories, they changed the data. They wrote routines that arbitrarily increased the temperatures. They discarded data from measuring stations where the local environment had not changed, but kept data from stations where the local environment was vastly different and had been skewed by urbanisation and it's attendant warming, and then they even put multipliers on top of that.
They refused to share their homogenised data sets and refused to share the FORTRAN code used to produce them. They refused to comply with freedom of information requests
There were emails about what they could do to disguise and hide the decline in temperatures that were at odds with their theories.
I expected that they would be sacked, discredited and shamed, but the protagonists were simply given a ticking off and quietly moved sideways.
So the whole AGW bandwagon marches on.
I'm a scientist. I'm interested in discovering truth, or at least discovering more detail, which invariably leads to more questions but advances out knowledge.
The church of AGW does none of these things. | |||
"The un released a report on the current mega elnino, there looking at serious impact on a 100 million people! The spread of zika through south and north America is being helped by the heavy rainfall and warmer temperatures... This isn't your great grandkids, that idea that it's in the far off future is just wrong!" My point is that in the 1950 & 60's the government's indicated nuclear war was immenant, and lived in fear of it. there was plenty of publicity about it at the time, including how you could survive with brown paper and matresses (UK civil defence film) In the 70's when I was a teenager the government and science predicted oil would run out before 2000. it didn't. don't live in fear for what you can't fix. fix what you can. and hope they are overplaying it again. El Nino is fuel by difference in temperatures if both halves increase by 1 degree it won't affect el Nino. last year's was the strongest in 50 years, being slightly stronger than 1998, expect another mega one in 20 to 25 years, but won't be much different to last year, give or take. | |||
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"A 1 degree rise per century since the glacial period?... How's that work, do you mean a .1 degree rise It is sort of technically possible, as we are still in the last ice age. as far as we know there has only been ice at the poles for 15% of the time the earth has been here, so this is an unnatural state for the planet, it just happens to suit humans quite nicely, though we were here before it, and probably will be after it too." . Have you ever thought why we came out of Africa?. Do you know the great pyramids were surrounded by lush forest and water a plenty, it had the same climate as northen Europe! However if you were to try and live their now, well life's a bit harsher but good luck planting out your crop in the Sahara | |||
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"Have you ever thought why we came out of Africa?. Do you know the great pyramids were surrounded by lush forest and water a plenty, it had the same climate as northen Europe! However if you were to try and live their now, well life's a bit harsher but good luck planting out your crop in the Sahara" Kind of proving the opposite point there, did we leave Africa as them pesky neadertals forgot to recycle? it has recently been discovered the modern home sapiens may have been cross breading with neanderthals 60,000 years before we previously knew them to exist, and what's more they did it in Russia (though obviously it wasn't Russia then) when they were supposedly busy evolving in Africa. Everything in pre written language times is educated guesswork, and most things in post written language times too unfortunatly. perhaps when the ice sheet covers Europe, the Sahara will be the green and pleasant land it once was? | |||
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"The un released a report on the current mega elnino, there looking at serious impact on a 100 million people! The spread of zika through south and north America is being helped by the heavy rainfall and warmer temperatures... This isn't your great grandkids, that idea that it's in the far off future is just wrong! My point is that in the 1950 & 60's the government's indicated nuclear war was immenant, and lived in fear of it. there was plenty of publicity about it at the time, including how you could survive with brown paper and matresses (UK civil defence film) In the 70's when I was a teenager the government and science predicted oil would run out before 2000. it didn't. don't live in fear for what you can't fix. fix what you can. and hope they are overplaying it again. El Nino is fuel by difference in temperatures if both halves increase by 1 degree it won't affect el Nino. last year's was the strongest in 50 years, being slightly stronger than 1998, expect another mega one in 20 to 25 years, but won't be much different to last year, give or take. " . What nonsense for crying out loud man, the third largest oil find in history in the north sea in 1968? But only 2 year later they ones telling you the world had run out??.. And elnino is primarily driven by ocean temperatures which are getting warmer which is why were seeing bigger and stronger ones. oceans acidification is currently at 3 million year levels, this occurs because they absorb c02 and heat. If you look at stuff on a graph like say extinction and plot it agaist human population growth, there almost identical and nearly always have a hockey stick shape! You can plot c02 against it exactly the same shape You can plot fossil fuel usage against it... Exactly the same shape. Temperature graph... Same shape | |||
"Have you ever thought why we came out of Africa?. Do you know the great pyramids were surrounded by lush forest and water a plenty, it had the same climate as northen Europe! However if you were to try and live their now, well life's a bit harsher but good luck planting out your crop in the Sahara Kind of proving the opposite point there, did we leave Africa as them pesky neadertals forgot to recycle? it has recently been discovered the modern home sapiens may have been cross breading with neanderthals 60,000 years before we previously knew them to exist, and what's more they did it in Russia (though obviously it wasn't Russia then) when they were supposedly busy evolving in Africa. Everything in pre written language times is educated guesswork, and most things in post written language times too unfortunatly. perhaps when the ice sheet covers Europe, the Sahara will be the green and pleasant land it once was? " . No that was during the flipping ice age man... Were heading the other way into temperatures never seen by humans. Full stop | |||
"You can plot c02 against it exactly the same shape You can plot fossil fuel usage against it... Exactly the same shape. Temperature graph... Same shape " You can prove anything with the right data | |||
"Just like us in Fabland and millions apone millions of other people,all using our little electrical divides.All of which need power to charge them up...day in,day out,without a thought.The power as to come from somewhere.Wish they would make a phone what would allow the sun to charge it up,just like some of the calculators.Then if needed a mains top up. " What I find vexing is that the countries who could do so much are doing so little - ourselves included! Rubbish can be used to provide energy - but it's very rarely utilised! I can think of only one country who does this! Politics and greed prevent any serious research into clean, cheap energy. I used to spend a lot of the summer holidays in Spain where it's sunny most of the year - yet even in the wealthy areas there are few or no solar panels - why? As an island we have loads of sea surrounding us - and wind - but we aren't using it to anywhere near its full potential - and there's a 'nimby' attitude to wind farms! Most depressing though was learning that when they've met the government quotas for recycling - many local authorities - including my own - landfill rather than continuing to recycle! That just says it all really!  | |||
"Were heading the other way into temperatures never seen by humans. Full stop" What's your source for that? | |||
" Could I just ask you something honestly!... Firstly I'm not an expert, I just read alot of stuff, and the experts I'm reading aren't saying what you saying. A 1 degree rise per century since the glacial period?... How's that work, do you mean a .1 degree rise Sorry, just woken up from a nap and wasn't thinking quite straight .
I should have said 1/2F per century, which is around 1/4C per century. The last full on glacial period was 11,000 years ago, we're currently still in an ice age (as defined by there being permanent ice cover at the poles), however we are in an inter-glacial period termed the Holocene (I think - I'm doing this from memory, but all the relevant stuff is online).
One of the effects of global warming (yes it really is happening, the debate is about the cause(s) ), is the dilution of the saline pump that powers the Atlantic Conveyor (gulf stream). This is known to switch off suddenly every several thousand years and we are in the zone for it happening again. When this happens, we will get an ice sheet down to the Mediterranean.
So, perversely, global warming is likely to cause the next mini ice age.
Most so called experts, just look at the last few hundred years, along with some dodgy science, and make predictions which so far have all been shown to be erroneous - I have no confidence in them.
The AGW bandwagon is akin to a religion. If you voice dissent, you are labelled a denier, you will get passed over for promotion, will get no funding for research and your work will not be published.
When the CRU emails and FORTRAN code were leaked, I read a lot of it. They were commuting the most heinous of scientific crimes. When the data did not fit their theories, instead of changing their theories, they changed the data. They wrote routines that arbitrarily increased the temperatures. They discarded data from measuring stations where the local environment had not changed, but kept data from stations where the local environment was vastly different and had been skewed by urbanisation and it's attendant warming, and then they even put multipliers on top of that.
They refused to share their homogenised data sets and refused to share the FORTRAN code used to produce them. They refused to comply with freedom of information requests
There were emails about what they could do to disguise and hide the decline in temperatures that were at odds with their theories.
I expected that they would be sacked, discredited and shamed, but the protagonists were simply given a ticking off and quietly moved sideways.
So the whole AGW bandwagon marches on.
I'm a scientist. I'm interested in discovering truth, or at least discovering more detail, which invariably leads to more questions but advances out knowledge.
The church of AGW does none of these things.". Were in complete agreement in your first two paragraphs. Unfortunately that can no longer take it's natural course because the atmospheric c02 due to human activities will push temperatures up beyond where we have ice caps. So yeah we could wait it out for another 24,000 years for the earth tilt to give some impact on c02 but I guess they figure we ain't got time for that crazy talk!. Look if I get cancer I'm going to see a cancer specialist somebody who works in medicine but specialises in cancer... I'm not seeing a vet or a dentist or an optician!. There's 30,000 climate change specialists and pretty much all of them are in full agreement that humans are causing the earth to warm through mainly c02 emissions. I'm guessing if we let chemists or physics teachers have a whack at it they'll come up with a few different ideas just like a dentist might come up with a whacky theory about my cancer!. | |||
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"Were heading the other way into temperatures never seen by humans. Full stop What's your source for that?" . The IPCC. | |||
"There's 30,000 climate change specialists and pretty much all of them are in full agreement that humans are causing the earth to warm through mainly c02 emissions." I guess you're not aware that there is funding for research proving it's our fault? But none for the people who can prove it's not our fault. | |||
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"Were heading the other way into temperatures never seen by humans. Full stop What's your source for that?. The IPCC." The people in charge of proving it's true  | |||
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"El nino is produced by a temperature differential, not by mean/median temp. Looking at previous warming events, CO2 lags rise in temperature, i.e. it is a symptom of temperature increase not the cause. The current temperature "hockey stick" does not exist, it is a fabrication by the CRU - that is what they covered up and tried to manipulate the data to support their assertion. But, I agree, the planet is warming up, and will no doubt continue to do so, unless/until a tipping point is reached, such as the Atlantic Conveyor switching off, or some other cyclical event related to solar activity ensues. There are many factors to consider and I hope we continue to study, theorise, postulate and test in order to gain a deeper understanding. Some of it however, will doubtless be inevitable and we will simply have to adapt and cope. My most fervent hope is that we can get off oil. Fusion seems to be the solution, but it's technically difficult, though as I said above, we are making significant progress. For many years I've been disappointed with how little we use geo-thermal. There are many places on the earth where the crust is relatively thin - drill a hole, pour water down, get steam out, drive a turbine, produce electricity. Electricity is relatively easy to transport around the globe. It horrifies me that Japan thought it was a good idea to build a fission reactor on a geological fault. It is still polluting the Pacific today. Had they gone for geothermal, as Iceland has, they could have produced oodles of electricity with no environmental impact, even in the event of an earthquake." | |||
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"Were heading the other way into temperatures never seen by humans. Full stop" This is not the place, and my phone keyboard is unsuitable for even short explanations. But... El Nino is driven not by temperature, but reletive difference in temperature. 2015 was the strongest in 50 years, but it's on a 20 to 25 year average cycle, so that makes the sample size 2 or 3... not exactly a scientific basis. The most likely effect of the Atlantic ocean warming up is it will stop the gulf stream, therefore cause massive drop in temperature in northern Europe, i.e. a mini ice age. so global warming means get yer coats out not throw yer coats out. Though of course there will be a transition period we are not looking at an overnight change here. North Sea Oil... was supposed to run dry by the mid 80s according to the early science. I can't fix this, nor can you, and I suspect a global effort won't either, but I can buy locally sourced food and minimise packaging and hope that I can knock an minute or so off the inevitable transition trauma. but I would bet on transition over extinction when it does come. | |||
"Most renewable energy is inefficient. We lead the world in wave power research but fail to implement it. The Green thing is nonsense in my opinion." . Let's not get hung up on words. What we've got is the greatest threat to the human species we've ever known and according to all the data it's only 1 generation away at best, if your under 30 it will most definitely directly affect you!. They take the average consensus of 30,000 experts, you'll never get perfect agreement, so it's an average, but they say by 2050 the worse off the effects will be upon us, at the moment it's impossible to remove c02 from the atmosphere so when it hits 450 ppm that's where it stays for thousands of years, we already know the direct effect 400 ppm has on temperature. There are no green tax's, in fact the oil industry has more subsidy than green electric, nuclear has more subsidy... You want things from the past that never came true!. 1956 UK government infomercial... Nuclear power will be so cheap by 1990 it won't be worth metering?. Governments have not been pushing for action on climate change, they've been dragging there heels for decades because of pressure from business in particular the fossil fuel industry. The first ipcc panel was in 1990 26 years ago and governments have done absolutely nothing in that 26 years, in fact we've seen c02 rates go up 42% since then. If we'd acted in 1990 right now we'd be OK. Paris 2015 they've finally said there'll agree to limit to 2 degrees, every expert knows that's never going to happen and that in the near future we'll reap our harvest | |||
"What we've got is the greatest threat to the human species we've ever known and according to all the data it's only 1 generation away at best, if your under 30 it will most definitely directly affect you!." And you believe it. Which is your prerogative. But a lot of us don't. And we also look at evidence | |||
"There are no green tax's" You don't run a business or corporation then I take it? | |||
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"The Earth ahs been hotter in the past, especially pre-humans. And that wasn't our fault." . Nobody says it was. It's scientifically impossible for human civilisation to continue as we know it in a world 4-6 degrees warmer than what it has been. Yes it's been super stable by a fluke of nature but it was that super stableness that allowed us to be here having this life we know! Humans have never lived in a world as warm as it is today... Period, right now, not ten years or twenty years time, today! 7 billon people can't live in a world 4 degrees warmer, that's factual. Half will need to die... That's factual. Evolution has a natural pace, when you speed up the natural cycles of things nothing can evolve fast enough... That's how the great extinctions of the past happened! | |||
"There are no green tax's You don't run a business or corporation then I take it?". Name one tax you pay design to stop climate change | |||
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"There are no green tax's You don't run a business or corporation then I take it?.
Name one tax you pay design to stop climate change"This is from the government so you can't argue with it. https://www.gov.uk/green-taxes-and-reliefs/overview | |||
"What we've got is the greatest threat to the human species we've ever known and according to all the data it's only 1 generation away at best, if your under 30 it will most definitely directly affect you!. And you believe it. Which is your prerogative. But a lot of us don't. And we also look at evidence ". We've been over and over this. What are your qualifications in this subject and what are the qualifications of the people your hearing evidence from?. Are you going to see a cancer specialist if you get cancer or a dentist?... And which one will you take the advice off... Perhaps if you had 30,000 cancer specialists and 97% were in agreement would you still belive your dentist over them because you don't like their chemotherapy cure and you like the dentist's take some vitamin c much better? | |||
"7 billon people can't live in a world 4 degrees warmer, that's factual. Half will need to die... That's factual. Evolution has a natural pace, when you speed up the natural cycles of things nothing can evolve fast enough... That's how the great extinctions of the past happened!" It is arguable that 7 billion people can't live in a world with 0 degree temperature change, as for evolution humans have out performed that many times over. for centuries we have been able o live from minus 40 to plus 40, just about the only complex organism to be able to survive in such extremes. I know I can't stop you worrying, wish I could. can you tell me how I can stop this happening? | |||
"There are no green tax's You don't run a business or corporation then I take it?.
Name one tax you pay design to stop climate change
This is from the government so you can't argue with it.
https://www.gov.uk/green-taxes-and-reliefs/overview". No you said it was a conspiracy... Which one of those tax's you pay was designed or even claimed to be stopping climate change?.. There isn't any, even the IPCC admit it, the Paris accord couldn't agree on any... There are NO tax's designed on application to stop climate change, none, zero, zilch!. There's cap n trade which the IPCC has been trying to push for years but nearly every government has scuppered it... The crazy thing is cap n trade gives all the tax back to none polluters, that's what it's trying to do, encourage people not to produce c02. Even the scientists know cap n trade won't be the "answer" but it's the start of the answer | |||
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"7 billon people can't live in a world 4 degrees warmer, that's factual. Half will need to die... That's factual. Evolution has a natural pace, when you speed up the natural cycles of things nothing can evolve fast enough... That's how the great extinctions of the past happened! It is arguable that 7 billion people can't live in a world with 0 degree temperature change, as for evolution humans have out performed that many times over. for centuries we have been able o live from minus 40 to plus 40, just about the only complex organism to be able to survive in such extremes. I know I can't stop you worrying, wish I could. can you tell me how I can stop this happening? " . Youve got tunnel vision... Try opening your eyes wider!. It's all about YOU, your every sentence contains me or humans can survive temperatures from minus 40 to plus 40 ... That's terrific pat yourself on the back for a being a great species... While your doing that tell me what 7 billon people are going to eat if it's minus 40 or plus 40?... We know YOU'LL survive but what you all eating because everything else is dead | |||
"No you said it was a conspiracy... Which one of those tax's you pay was designed or even claimed to be stopping climate change?.." Show me where I said it's a conspiracy.
I can't help that you can't see that taxes to reduce Co2 are about climate change. | |||
"It's all about YOU, your every sentence contains me or humans can survive temperatures from minus 40 to plus 40 ... That's terrific pat yourself on the back for a being a great species... While your doing that tell me what 7 billon people are going to eat if it's minus 40 or plus 40?... We know YOU'LL survive but what you all eating because everything else is dead "Attack is the best form of defence for many
OP you asked for opinions, you got them. We don't buy your hysteria.
Deal with it | |||
"No you said it was a conspiracy... Which one of those tax's you pay was designed or even claimed to be stopping climate change?.. Show me where I said it's a conspiracy.
I can't help that you can't see that taxes to reduce Co2 are about climate change.". No your confusing a tax on refuge collection being called green and a tax designed to stop climate change. Yes there a green wheelie bin outside my house, it's not designed to solve climate change its designed to stop landfills filling up and polluting. | |||
"It's all about YOU, your every sentence contains me or humans can survive temperatures from minus 40 to plus 40 ... That's terrific pat yourself on the back for a being a great species... While your doing that tell me what 7 billon people are going to eat if it's minus 40 or plus 40?... We know YOU'LL survive but what you all eating because everything else is dead
Attack is the best form of defence for many
OP you asked for opinions, you got them. We don't buy your hysteria.
Deal with it ". I'm attacking the message, the message was "I can" hence why the attack was singular and not plural. I don't need you to buy my hysteria the thread is about what your going to do to mitigate what the governments are going to do! You see the argument about climate change was over years ago, even the governments of the world have agreed to stop it? | |||
"No your confusing a tax on refuge collection being called green and a tax designed to stop climate change. Yes there a green wheelie bin outside my house, it's not designed to solve climate change its designed to stop landfills filling up and polluting." That link was not about wheelie bins. I think that you're just here for an argument. I like an interesting debate but not just being told I don't know what I am talking about, even after providing proof. A debate means adding different information and opinions to the mix. You just want to ram the scary stuff down out throats. Your vision of the future looks really bad, enjoy it | |||
"Were heading the other way into temperatures never seen by humans. Full stop What's your source for that?" The Sun | |||
"No your confusing a tax on refuge collection being called green and a tax designed to stop climate change. Yes there a green wheelie bin outside my house, it's not designed to solve climate change its designed to stop landfills filling up and polluting. That link was not about wheelie bins. I think that you're just here for an argument. I like an interesting debate but not just being told I don't know what I am talking about, even after providing proof. A debate means adding different information and opinions to the mix. You just want to ram the scary stuff down out throats. Your vision of the future looks really bad, enjoy it ". No you lot have turned a thread about what people realise is going to happen through the Paris accord into your little personal conspiracy theory. There's a thread on the illuminati a few pages along, go and jump in there  | |||
"You see the argument about climate change was over years ago, even the governments of the world have agreed to stop it?" I know that, what you need to grasp is that I have a different view to you on WHY they have agreed to stop 'it'. An 'it' that is natural anyway and unstoppable in my opinion. They cannot save the world from climate change. They can only use biased research to try and scare us into thinking we can. | |||
"No you lot have turned a thread about what people realise is going to happen through the Paris accord into your little personal conspiracy theory. There's a thread on the illuminati a few pages along, go and jump in there "If that's what you think then fine | |||
"Youve got tunnel vision... Try opening your eyes wider!. It's all about YOU, your every sentence contains me or humans can survive temperatures from minus 40 to plus 40 ... That's terrific pat yourself on the back for a being a great species... While your doing that tell me what 7 billon people are going to eat if it's minus 40 or plus 40?... We know YOU'LL survive but what you all eating because everything else is dead "Of course it's all about me, I am the only one that I control. Are you saying that there is nothing I can do to help mitigate global warming? If that is your message fine, I can stop worrying. | |||
"You see the argument about climate change was over years ago, even the governments of the world have agreed to stop it?" ? where have you obtained that from ? From Paris and other events I have heard a lot of blame allocation, and some attempts to agree to reduce the impact. I have never seen a single government representative say they will stop global warming, let alone all of them working together to stop it. he'll they haven't even agreed what it is or what effect it will have. | |||
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"Youve got tunnel vision... Try opening your eyes wider!. It's all about YOU, your every sentence contains me or humans can survive temperatures from minus 40 to plus 40 ... That's terrific pat yourself on the back for a being a great species... While your doing that tell me what 7 billon people are going to eat if it's minus 40 or plus 40?... We know YOU'LL survive but what you all eating because everything else is dead
Of course it's all about me, I am the only one that I control. Are you saying that there is nothing I can do to help mitigate global warming? If that is your message fine, I can stop worrying.
". What I'm saying is that yes, you(human being) might be able to withstand great temperature differentials, although I'd add that's not because we're better just that were clever enough to adapt stuff like clothes and houses to withstand the differential. However for you to survive with a life as you know it right now!. We'll probably with the best data we know, need to keep global temperatures below 1.5 at 2 degrees hundreds of millions will be devastated and at 4-6 degrees (which by the way most experts in the subject think we'll be heading) the world will be unrecognisable and we'll be at temperatures that humans have never existed at!. Now the question I was asking originally is why most people are not aware of what the future will need to be like to avoid those temperature gains and how there'll mitigate for the obvious changes we as species will face ie travel will for the first time be slower much slower. | |||
"Now the question I was asking originally is why most people are not aware of what the future will need to be like to avoid those temperature gains and how there'll mitigate for the obvious changes we as species will face ie travel will for the first time be slower much slower." Because they don't believe it will happen, or if they do they know there is nothing we can do. | |||
"No one has agreed anything yet anyway. The Paris Agreement is not enforceable anyway. "The agreement will be deposited at the UN in New York and opened for signature for one year on 22 April 2016. The agreement will enter into force after 55 countries that account for at least 55% of global emissions have deposited their instruments of ratification." Source http://ec.europa.eu/clima/policies/international/negotiations/paris/index_en.htm" . It was agreed internationaly to limit the global temperatures to no more than 2 degrees but the wording was specific to do all they could to limit it to 1.5. The 50 countries and 55% is when it becomes legally enforceable but the agreement still stands today | |||
"Now the question I was asking originally is why most people are not aware of what the future will need to be like to avoid those temperature gains and how there'll mitigate for the obvious changes we as species will face ie travel will for the first time be slower much slower. Because they don't believe it will happen, or if they do they know there is nothing we can do." . That's fine if you don't belive it will happen, that's just terrific, but the governments of the world are now committed to stopping the 2 degree increase so I'm guessing unless you have your own island somewhere, you will be affected either way | |||
"You see the argument about climate change was over years ago, even the governments of the world have agreed to stop it? ? where have you obtained that from ? From Paris and other events I have heard a lot of blame allocation, and some attempts to agree to reduce the impact. I have never seen a single government representative say they will stop global warming, let alone all of them working together to stop it. he'll they haven't even agreed what it is or what effect it will have. " . You really should try and read more about it. That was 26 years ago at the first ipcc conference. Kyoto in 1996 even agreed on the basis of what was needed | |||
"That's fine if you don't belive it will happen, that's just terrific, but the governments of the world are now committed to stopping the 2 degree increase so I'm guessing unless you have your own island somewhere, you will be affected either way" The governments of the world are NOT committed. I don't believe they ever will be. Read up on the Kyoto Protocol. Why are you making personal insults? I actually have land in the Sahara  | |||
"That's fine if you don't belive it will happen, that's just terrific, but the governments of the world are now committed to stopping the 2 degree increase so I'm guessing unless you have your own island somewhere, you will be affected either way The governments of the world are NOT committed. I don't believe they ever will be. Read up on the Kyoto Protocol. Why are you making personal insults? I actually have land in the Sahara ". What personal insults are you talking about?. The Kyoto agreement was in 96!!! There's been a few others since then you know | |||
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"You really should try and read more about it. That was 26 years ago at the first ipcc conference. Kyoto in 1996 even agreed on the basis of what was needed" Believe me I have read about it. I even know it was 19 years ago in 1997, came into force in 2005 and was set for renewal in 2012. And far from everyone has ratified the new version. The world's governments are NOT signed up to stop global warming. | |||
"What personal insults are you talking about?. The Kyoto agreement was in 96!!! There's been a few others since then you know "It was 97. The insults you have thrown at me and other posters. | |||
"http://newlight.com" Wow | |||
"Now the question I was asking originally is why most people are not aware of what the future will need to be like to avoid those temperature gains and how there'll mitigate for the obvious changes we as species will face ie travel will for the first time be slower much slower." This is a pure guess, I have no data to back it up. but of the global population I suspect that OVER 50% have never travelled in motorised transport of any kind, and over 80% have never travelled by aircraft. So travel won't affect them, nor can they contribute to that avenue of carbon reduction. I have now retired mostly, but in my work in the 90's I travelled by plane all over the world, but the growth of the internet reduced that travel massively as I could do things remotely and communicate globally. its change, for the better in many ways for the worse in others but I would contest the slowing down concept as all of a sudden I can work around the globe simultaneously without leaving my desk. Fact is we don't know what the impact of global warming will be, I and many others believe it is inevitable and the real crisis is the increase of population not the fossil fuels, after all people make co2 as well as needing food clothes fuel etc. that makes more. The crisis won't be in my lifetime, and there is no chance of humans resolving it, so the "petrol is evil, let's burn it" is as good an argument as anything that came out of Paris or any previous meetings. | |||
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"The conference negotiated the Paris Agreement, a global agreement on the reduction of climate change" You're spouting what we know. The point being that this agreement is NOT ratified. If no one ratifies it it won't make any difference. Planning to do something and actually doing it are two different things. As anyone who meets single guys will know  | |||
"The conference negotiated the Paris Agreement, a global agreement on the reduction of climate change You're spouting what we know. The point being that this agreement is NOT ratified. If no one ratifies it it won't make any difference. Planning to do something and actually doing it are two different things. As anyone who meets single guys will know ". It will be ratified on earth day | |||
"It will be ratified on earth day "So the future's bright then  | |||
"It will be ratified on earth day "It MAY be ratified on earth day, Kyo to was agreed in 97, USA opted out in 2001 and it was ratified without many of the industrial nations so therefore mostly toothless in 2005. You appear to have more faith in government than I do, which may be why we can't see the same path. | |||
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"Ok, back to the original question. I think the Paris agreement, whether ratified or not, will have the same effect as all the other agreements/protocols/concords etc., none. Except maybe resulting in higher taxes which will be absorbed into general revenues. Am I concerned about the future - yes, but not shit scared and I think we will solve the Fusion challenges within a hundred years, maybe even 50, sooner if the world world devotes its resources to it, but that won't happen. Climate change is a continuum, fortunately it happens gradually giving us time to adapt. I'm more concerned about a single catastrophic event such as a meteor hitting the earth, or Yellowstone exploding. these will give us no time to plan, prepare and adapt. Either one of the above could wipe out over 50% of all life on earth in an instant." Agree totally, especially the natural disaster bit  | |||
"It will be ratified on earth day
It MAY be ratified on earth day, Kyo to was agreed in 97, USA opted out in 2001 and it was ratified without many of the industrial nations so therefore mostly toothless in 2005.
You appear to have more faith in government than I do, which may be why we can't see the same path.". I'm willing to give you a wager it gets ratified as agreed. Then my original point is limiting to 2 degrees will be the goal. Now there basing this on the evidence of the IPCC so our arguments are incidental, so we don't need to go through this again. Now according to the scientists at the IPCC, limiting to 2 degrees will require a 10% per annum reduction in c02 this means everybodys future will look different whether we agree about the science or not because stuff like airline travel, sea travel, meat production will not be solved through electrification unlike car travel and rail. | |||
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"Or that the USA, China India, or even the UK will sign up to an agreement that will cripple their country financially for the good of an as yet unborn voter? " I often wonder about this, when people weigh up their contributions with financial gain, I don't understand the point, maybe I'm missing something but what's the point in making a country financially strong if the next generation are unlikely to even survive? It's like when people want to know how much financial gain they will have if they act on these things. Well... If you don't you'll be dead, but, yeh sure, have all the money in the world, nobody will be using it, corpses don't tend to need much money. Maybe I'm missing something but I just don't understand the point... Who cares about money in the face of extinction? What does it matter? I'm not looking to get into the global warming debate here just yet, I'm just curious if anyone could educate me on why greed matters in these kinds of situations?  | |||
"I'm not looking to get into the global warming debate here just yet, I'm just curious if anyone could educate me on why greed matters in these kinds of situations? "I am out after this post, it's beer o'clock. When a house gets flooded, the insurance repairs it and waits till next winter and does it again. When they can't afford it the government pays, and people still buy those houses, If people can't be sensible on the immediate that they know is going to happen, What chance is there for something that may happen that might do something sometime in the next 30 to 300 years. | |||
"I'm just curious if anyone could educate me on why greed matters in these kinds of situations? "Why is it greed? Not crippling oneself financially doesn't sound like greed to me. | |||
"Or that the USA, China India, or even the UK will sign up to an agreement that will cripple their country financially for the good of an as yet unborn voter? I often wonder about this, when people weigh up their contributions with financial gain, I don't understand the point, maybe I'm missing something but what's the point in making a country financially strong if the next generation are unlikely to even survive? It's like when people want to know how much financial gain they will have if they act on these things. Well... If you don't you'll be dead, but, yeh sure, have all the money in the world, nobody will be using it, corpses don't tend to need much money. Maybe I'm missing something but I just don't understand the point... Who cares about money in the face of extinction? What does it matter? I'm not looking to get into the global warming debate here just yet, I'm just curious if anyone could educate me on why greed matters in these kinds of situations? "It's a bit like having a prognosis for terminal cancer! So we've got ask this great modern medical technology and we can see the tumour, it's there, it's growing and it's insidious. Right about now you can still get along OK, the body works mostly like normal but the signs of something not being right are very very clear. Now the expert cancer specialists have given you the prognosis of 1 year before it consumes the body and all is lost.. Like everybody you ask.. What can be done, well the only hope is chemotherapy/radiotherapy maybe having an operation to cut the lump out.. And even then ,we can't guarantee it will work but if it does well you'll get a good few more years but and here it is. It means completely losing the life you had and going on a different path altogether!. Faced with such change, you'd be surprised how many refuse the treatment and deny the prognosis!. So the 30,000 expert scientists aren't offering you guarantees or even that the change will work. There just saying that the overwhelming evidence is that your not gonna make it if you do fuck all about the symptoms and stick your head in the sand!. | |||
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"Why is it greed? Not crippling oneself financially doesn't sound like greed to me." Coveting money in the face of survival and thereby being more interested in wealth than your own needs and indeed everyone else sounds pretty much like the very definition of greed to me: "Greed: An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth" A desire to acquire more material wealth than one needs... To put it another way imagine someone is in some woods and a bear is racing towards them, a man pulls up in a van and offers to quickly sell them a rifle for £1000, the rifle may not kill the bear and can't guarantee their survival but it's their only chance all the same (not allowed in the van). If that person says 'no, I'd rather keep my £1000 so I'm financially wealthy', they subsequently die and the rifle seller takes the money from their corpse anyway... Would you say that person was greedy? I can't see many other ways of describing that person. I mean, we're just talking about the semantics used in one part of my post rather than the overall message (you could be a good politician!) so this debate seems a little pointless and irrelevant to me but I hope it's cleared it up all the same. "You know I wouldn't mind if somebody had some honesty, yeah I'm fucking the planet over but I'm really not that bothered about my kids or poor people and I'm currently loving my lifestyle, I'd shake their hands and say fair play. But this bullshit of denying the obvious the tedious made up facts of denial to mitigate some sort of factor away from the reality of morality. You like flying for weekends away, you like buying cheap products manufactured in the other side of the world... Hello who doesn't, we all like that shit, that's why we are where we are. But let's at least be truthful. Were having a good time and we really don't give a shit about our kids, this nonsense about investing in houses for our children's inheritance... It's bollocks were investing in houses for OUR benefit it's got nothing to do with anyone expert the me mentality. We created the "id" and now we're living with the consequences" I don't think it's fair to say people don't care about their kids, I think you're falling into a trap here of seeing a big evil enemy that lacks humanity. Most people act like this I think because it's hard for them to accept and adapt to things rather than out of pure maliciousness. Most politicians are old and rich, pretty much the demographic most stubborn and resilient to change, most of what they do is attempting to preserve a lifestyle long since over in a world long gone, as people get older they become far more experienced but the brain is more set in its ways and less capable of adaption. If I talk to my parents about climate change they just come back with statements that don't really make any sense and look at it as some 'phase the kids are going through' and ignore it, it's not because they're evil, they're just old. (I know this seems a slightly offensive paragraph but I didn't mean it in that way, just couldn't think of a better way of phrasing it than 'old' at the moment, there is of course nothing wrong with being a bit older but the facts about the change in brain processing remain 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks' sort of thing, there's also a lot of great things that come with getting older as well though) I also don't think you can dismiss everyone as the same, I'm currently living a very modest lifestyle and I'm very poor because I'm putting all my money into a house that's totally self-sustainable, this won't be of much benefit to me because of the scales of time and cost, but it will mean my children when they're older will never have to worry about having money to pay rent, or pay the utilities or buy food, they can earn money for luxuries but the basic necessities will always be there for them. My children are my entire focus in life, not everyone has the same agenda in life, I know it can get disheartening and look like the world is just some horrible place full of villains, but in truth they just see things differently, hell to a lot of people you might be the villain, just try not to get into an 'us and them' mentality, it's not very productive and just makes you look somewhat bitter. I don't mean any offence by that by the way, I'm just trying to explain that you'll be able to do more for the climate change cause if you're not getting into a mentality of 'you're all scum'. The hippocampus comes before the Neo Cortex in thought processing, so we make our minds up based on animalistic instinct and all our logic is then used just to justify the decision like a lawyer defending a madman. Our animal instincts tend to favour immediate comfort, but a strong foundation for them is supposed to be survival instinct, I find it sad that the world seems to have a greatly weakened survival instinct these days, maybe due to the comforts of the modern world, I'm not sure. It is slightly odd though that some of the most successful media franchises now are based on 'survival' such as the fallout games, yet the same people have such a reduced survival instinct that faced with extinction they can't even put the steaks and burgers away. I suppose that answers my question about why people bring money into it, I just find it mind boggling. What is the point of money if not to provide a better life for yourself and that of your blood lines? What is the point if you keep your money at the cost of your children lives? When did money become more important to people than basic survival of their whole species? Interestingly, a lot of the worst practises for climate change (eating meat for example) are becoming increasingly expensive, so those more interested in money will probably join the use for the sake of their own pockets in the end anyway. I think your cancer analogy was pretty spot on though, people aren't good at fighting for their survival these days, just keeping themselves comfortable so you're probably right in it coming down to people struggling to give up luxuries. | |||
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"I realise that post came across far more aggressive and insulting than I intended it to, I apologise, I'm not looking to start arguments or offend anyone, I'm just not very eloquent in my self expression." . Don't worry, I some times lose my patience when debating climate change. I've lost patience with politicans and even climate scientists themselves, there doing far too little in revealing the true scale of the problem! Only in the last few years have we seen a few of them like Anderson at Tyndall, Hanson from NASA, breaking rank to go public with the severity of it! The media have been appalling at bringing in serious primetime documentary's or even giving time to experts, the bbc do one week nightly specials from jodrell bank about astronomy!. You've got American elections and it's barely made the debates on the democratic side, the fucking Republicans are actually all, everyone one of them climate deniers!.... And yet still the general public think it's a giant government conspiracy. Are you joking, it's hard to find an American politican whos serious about it, let alone pushing some sort of giant conspiracy!. | |||
