FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > EU or not EU
EU or not EU
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"Hello Soxy, the facts have been evident for years. The EU wants to be a single nation run by an unelected and unaccountable commission over which you have very little say. Why would you want to stay? All they want is our money, it's evident we have few friends in Europe. Alec" Surely it's about what's best for the future and we don't yet know what changes will be agreed .... Which is why I'm prepared to wait to make my mind up..... | |||
"I really don't think that Mr Cameron has a hope in hells chance of getting half of the things he says. To be honest what he promised in last years election has been very much watered down. I for one am fed up paying for child benefit for children who live in other countries and benefits of anykind to economic migraints who have just entered the country. This may not be a popular view but we work hard for our money and pay in to the system and take very little out. So unless Mr Camron goes back to the promises he made last year and takes a stand against the EU as it now then I will be voting to leave." ^ this  | |||
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"In or Out the peoples vote. You decide." not bothered either way to be quite honest ... whatever happens, just got to mutate and survive, same as it ever was | |||
"Hello Soxy, the facts have been evident for years. The EU wants to be a single nation run by an unelected and unaccountable commission over which you have very little say. Why would you want to stay? All they want is our money, it's evident we have few friends in Europe. Alec" Facts as in #notfacts?  | |||
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"i thought the royals were not to give opinion etc....wills will side with his dad Charlie......wonder if old harry will consult his dad ....mr Hewitt.lol. 100 percent OUT" That is right they don't. I guess they do it to show they don't all share the pm's view. | |||
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"As a true European I would like my two pennies Is there is anyone who believes it is more important to be English, French, German, Spanish than being European he/she should visit the military grave yards where millions of young men a buried who left their lives for doubtful reasons like fighting for king, god and country. There are plenty of those graveyard all over Europe, you cannot miss them. Patriotism or his brother Nationalism is brainwash cocain, used for centuries to send people into warfare for the benefit of a few on either side of the the front far behind the lines. Economically all Europe is hang into a cobweb of anonymous international capital power, which has no national identity whatsoever. Spinning Britain off the EU ...it doesn´t take a lot of math to predict the economic consequences of being offshored of the EC single market. A vasll of US interests one is anyways, whether in or out of the EU. What does one make so proud to be British, French, German or whatever else?. National pride is nothing which comes with the genetic code when you are born. I believe it is more important to be good human rather than being a good Briton, German, French etc. Yes, Europe need to be reformed to be a Europe of the people living there. From outside the EU unlikely that any useful contribution towards such aim could be made. And a leave from the bureaucratic EU will lead the British people not necessarily into a Britain for its people. The positive aspect on a Brexit is that British politicians can no longer abuse the EU as escape goat for their own mediocrity Good luck offshore "Spot the difference between when someone posts with fact, experience and considered personal opinion compared to borrowed gutter press headlines. | |||
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I never voted to join this monstrosity called the EU in the first place, and upto now, 38 years old i've never been given the choice. We voted to join a small handful of other nations to join a common market back in the 1970's, since then it has grown and grown to accomodate 28 member states today and is still looking to add more in the future (Turkey anyone?). It has morphed and mutated from a basic common market into a political union, social and economic experiment gone horribly wrong which has failed miserably. It is undemocratic in nature, it erodes the freedom and sovereignty of independent nation states by stealth. Someone mentioned what we fought for in ww2 in an earlier post, well we fought for our freedom, our independence, which now seems to keep being given away hand over fist by our spineless politicians in Westminster (Blair, Brown and now Cameron) over to Brussels. I'm sure our brave servicemen did'nt die fighting the nazis and pay the ultimate sacrifice with their lives to see it all being handed over on a plate for Britain to become part of a united states of europe.
A united states of europe is the ultimate goal of the EU, full political union and full monetary union under one federal government. Jean Claude Juncker does'nt try to hide it, he's very honest about it!
We have very little influence in the EU as the following link shows and our influence will only diminish in future if we stay.....
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2800998/daniel-hannan-no-mr-eurocrat-place-britain-irrelevant-inside-eu.html
Somone mentioned about the money we get from EU grants, well that is our money, lol, we give it to the EU in the first place (round about £33 million per day in membership fees) then the EU gives us less of our own money back in the long term and expects us to feel greatful. We are being short changed by the EU!
Then there is the currency issue, the euro and the eurozone, basket case economy that will drag us down with it if we stay in. Thank our lucky stars we never listened to the Europhiles and the EU luvvies back in the early 00's when they said "We must join the euro otherwise it will be disasterous for Britan". Well look WHO it has been a disaster FOR, yes you guessed it the countries who joined the euro!
So far we've been able to avoid being dragged down like greece because we kept the pound, but if we vote to remain in, the EU will keep pushing for closer political union and with that comes closer monetary union and we will be dragged down with them.
Its now the same Europhiles and EU luvvies like Peter Mandelson, Ken Clarke and Nick Clegg who told us we MUST join the euro or face disaster, now those exact SAME people are telling us, you MUST vote to stay in the EU or we face disaster if we leave!
Are you really going to listen to theses clueless idiots Peter Mandelson, Ken Clarke and Nick Clegg who told us to join the euro????? (I now hear that Tony Blair is joining the remain in campaign too  )
Kate Hoey, who has been a Labour MP for the last 28 years said in her article in the Sun on Sunday a few days ago, dated Sunday 14th February 2016....."The EU is arrogant, the Euro has been a disaster. As a socialist it makes my heart bleed to see the way the proud people of Greece were sacrificed last July to keep the euro from blowing up as it surely will. So lets unite in our battle for our country. After Brexit we will be safer, richer, and happier. You know the EU is alien to what makes us proud to be British. This is your chance to say 'No Thanks'. We want our country free and independent. We can only get that by voting to leave. "
I fully agree with what Kate Hoey, Labour MP said, vote Leave EU has cross party support and i'm sure the next few months will be very interesting to say the least.
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"I'd like us all to vote out of the EU. As it has given its self more and more power to changes our life's. We did not join the EU we joined a trade parnership back in the 70's.yes we should draw up our drawbridge and protect our self's. No we should not be allowing people to come e over to here and work and send child benefit back to tree own country. It should on be paid to them if their children are regularly attending a school in the UK. Someone posted before me about the £300M development aid that we get a year. Dont forget that we pay £350M a week to the EU to support them. We can still have the close cooperation with the EU like Denmark Sweden Norway Finland Iceland and Switzerland have in the formorning of access to open markets and free trade. This is our country and we are giving it away slowly with out noticing it. There is so much Red tape that we act on now that other countries just don't bother with and why is that. Because we are a push over. " | |||
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"In or Out the peoples vote. You decide." Out. It's a German vanity project that has spiralled wildly out of control .it was a trading agreement.. What it is now is not what people voted for in the 70s. Restructure,remove bureaucracy or leave,leave,leave. | |||
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"Is there another European country that i can go to, claim benefits, and send them back to my family here?" Yes, it's a phenomena you can find in any EU country. As well as hearing g the same arguments as here | |||
"Oh, and we only have 7.5% of the MEPs, so no real power to affect things" Hmmmm ..... now which three member countries of the United Kingdom does that sound like a similar problem for? | |||
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"we should stop in with our European friends. we all one big happy family" Nice one Adolf!  | |||
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"I'm also concerned that once the UK government has sovereign control back we could be in for even worse erosion of civil liberties than we currently have. " you'll know for sure the morning after the referendum when jack booted police kick your door down. | |||
"About the hundredth thread. Probably going to vote in, pending my fuller research analysis. There's no good argument from the no's." Tony Benn put a few good arguments for leaving. I hope your research includes that particular gentleman. | |||
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"I'm in. It works for me. I've had a decent career on the back of mutual open European trading. " That trading will, of course, continue even if we are out. Britain is an important market to many Continental companies. Ask BMW, as just on example.... | |||
"Hello Soxy, the facts have been evident for years. The EU wants to be a single nation run by an unelected and unaccountable commission over which you have very little say. Why would you want to stay? All they want is our money, it's evident we have few friends in Europe. Alec" Not much different to the government here then... | |||
"Lots of regional investment (ie your jobs and services) come from EU development funding. Do you think you'd get the same from the UK government. Point of comparison: the north east light rail and underground system was given about £300 million over 10 years to modernise and renovate stations, track, infrastructure and fleet. This was then cut by something like 20% Whereas a single station in London was given £500 million to make a bigger entrance and step free access. This was then increased to £1 billion to create an extra link to another rail track. I'd stick with the EU, because outside of London I feel more supported by the EU than Westminster. " This is true,and for those of you gettin new windows / roofs / kitchens and bathrooms on your council properties(or housing association) ,do not think for one minute its the local council or government footing the bill,its all European money from the EU pushing up peoples standards of living....Shmucks like us with our own properties do not get this help though despite paying in,despite this being a socialist I plan to stay in the EU because outside of London nothing exists to these buffoons that run our country ,prob on less than 40 percent of the vote. | |||
"It's never been the same since Terry Wogan handed the job to Graham Norton.... ". ... That made me titter... But then it's a good point, so much for this European brotherhood! | |||
"Just been listening to David Cameron arguing against the EWTD which limits working hours to 48 per week (or 56 if you opt out). There are also a variety of other worker's protections which we stand to lose if we leave and a conservative government is keen to do away with. It was argued the other day that 'households and the economy with benefit from EWTD removal'. What they fail to mention is that it is Bourgeois households that they are referring to. Working class workers will be utterly screwed. I'll be voting to stay in. " I'm a working class grunt and I benefit by opting out of the working time directive. As a result I can choose to work overtime if it is available and increase my earnings. On a purely selfish level I erotic prefer to stay in as I own a flat in Spain. However, I will be listening to the arguments before making my mind up. | |||
"I really want to vote out for a variety of reasons, but I drive to Spain once a year and bring back a car full of cheap wine vodka beer and fags. I'm guessing I wont be able to do that if we leave. I'm also concerned that once the UK government has sovereign control back we could be in for even worse erosion of civil liberties than we currently have. It's not an easy choice, but one we will all have to make." Well in or out it is time the backbone was put back in place, if you accept it they will give it you. | |||
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"Just been listening to David Cameron arguing against the EWTD which limits working hours to 48 per week (or 56 if you opt out). There are also a variety of other worker's protections which we stand to lose if we leave and a conservative government is keen to do away with. It was argued the other day that 'households and the economy with benefit from EWTD removal'. What they fail to mention is that it is Bourgeois households that they are referring to. Working class workers will be utterly screwed. I'll be voting to stay in. I'm a working class grunt and I benefit by opting out of the working time directive. As a result I can choose to work overtime if it is available and increase my earnings. On a purely selfish level I erotic prefer to stay in as I own a flat in Spain. However, I will be listening to the arguments before making my mind up." It is always local politicians creativity how to apply an EU directive. I know that in Spain Germany or Netherlands employees make lots of additional hours in production companies whenever needed. Of course there are legal limits...but those are health and safety topics as obviously the risk of accidents increases as well as the risk of burn outs if the employee does not get sufficient time to recover from a hard days work. Of course...without EU directive the amount of work hours can be increased....I doubt it will increase your income though. Since Britain broke the power of the trade unions in the Thatcher time, once out of the EU there are no regulations to comply with...and the new local regulations/arrangements will primarily not serve the needs ofJohn Do... | |||
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"I'm voting out. But then the Eu will make us vote aagain and again until they get the decision they want. " I don't think so. The EU will do fuck all. It is local politicians who will let you vote until they got the result they want, whatever that is. Even if local tabloids may tell you different, the EU has in fact no powers on national affairs...never had. They issue directives -guidelines, which were commonly agreed among all members (all decisions unanimously agreed) and leave it to the national governments how to apply it in their home countries. That's why we have for the same directive different outcome from country to country. Again..the entire debate is not more not less than an escape goat for the mediocrity of local politicians. | |||
"Just been listening to David Cameron arguing against the EWTD which limits working hours to 48 per week (or 56 if you opt out). There are also a variety of other worker's protections which we stand to lose if we leave and a conservative government is keen to do away with. It was argued the other day that 'households and the economy with benefit from EWTD removal'. What they fail to mention is that it is Bourgeois households that they are referring to. Working class workers will be utterly screwed. I'll be voting to stay in. I'm a working class grunt and I benefit by opting out of the working time directive. As a result I can choose to work overtime if it is available and increase my earnings. On a purely selfish level I erotic prefer to stay in as I own a flat in Spain. However, I will be listening to the arguments before making my mind up. It is always local politicians creativity how to apply an EU directive. I know that in Spain Germany or Netherlands employees make lots of additional hours in production companies whenever needed. Of course there are legal limits...but those are health and safety topics as obviously the risk of accidents increases as well as the risk of burn outs if the employee does not get sufficient time to recover from a hard days work. Of course...without EU directive the amount of work hours can be increased....I doubt it will increase your income though. Since Britain broke the power of the trade unions in the Thatcher time, once out of the EU there are no regulations to comply with...and the new local regulations/arrangements will primarily not serve the needs ofJohn Do..." Is it because we are now a nation of spineless bastards who think having an allotment makes you a landowner? | |||
"Just been listening to David Cameron arguing against the EWTD which limits working hours to 48 per week (or 56 if you opt out). There are also a variety of other worker's protections which we stand to lose if we leave and a conservative government is keen to do away with. It was argued the other day that 'households and the economy with benefit from EWTD removal'. What they fail to mention is that it is Bourgeois households that they are referring to. Working class workers will be utterly screwed. I'll be voting to stay in. I'm a working class grunt and I benefit by opting out of the working time directive. As a result I can choose to work overtime if it is available and increase my earnings. On a purely selfish level I erotic prefer to stay in as I own a flat in Spain. However, I will be listening to the arguments before making my mind up. It is always local politicians creativity how to apply an EU directive. I know that in Spain Germany or Netherlands employees make lots of additional hours in production companies whenever needed. Of course there are legal limits...but those are health and safety topics as obviously the risk of accidents increases as well as the risk of burn outs if the employee does not get sufficient time to recover from a hard days work. Of course...without EU directive the amount of work hours can be increased....I doubt it will increase your income though. Since Britain broke the power of the trade unions in the Thatcher time, once out of the EU there are no regulations to comply with...and the new local regulations/arrangements will primarily not serve the needs ofJohn Do... Is it because we are now a nation of spineless bastards who think having an allotment makes you a landowner?" Yeah, something like that. It is that no one of regualr peeps like you and me bothers to understand how this whole EU thing works, albeit there is plenty of informational portals in the web. However, as we have other priorities in our daily life one is far to ease dragged into poorly researched press contribution and falls to easy into the traps of populists of any color who stir emotions in this topic for the sake of gaining your vote, whether based on fear, macroeconomic facts and half facts, whatever....after all, when going to the ballot ask yourself who has really an advantage of BREXIT or not BREXIT. I can tell you one thing for sure..in either case its not you! | |||
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"Just been listening to David Cameron arguing against the EWTD which limits working hours to 48 per week (or 56 if you opt out). There are also a variety of other worker's protections which we stand to lose if we leave and a conservative government is keen to do away with. It was argued the other day that 'households and the economy with benefit from EWTD removal'. What they fail to mention is that it is Bourgeois households that they are referring to. Working class workers will be utterly screwed. I'll be voting to stay in. I'm a working class grunt and I benefit by opting out of the working time directive. As a result I can choose to work overtime if it is available and increase my earnings. On a purely selfish level I erotic prefer to stay in as I own a flat in Spain. However, I will be listening to the arguments before making my mind up. It is always local politicians creativity how to apply an EU directive. I know that in Spain Germany or Netherlands employees make lots of additional hours in production companies whenever needed. Of course there are legal limits...but those are health and safety topics as obviously the risk of accidents increases as well as the risk of burn outs if the employee does not get sufficient time to recover from a hard days work. Of course...without EU directive the amount of work hours can be increased....I doubt it will increase your income though. Since Britain broke the power of the trade unions in the Thatcher time, once out of the EU there are no regulations to comply with...and the new local regulations/arrangements will primarily not serve the needs ofJohn Do... Is it because we are now a nation of spineless bastards who think having an allotment makes you a landowner? Yeah, something like that. It is that no one of regualr peeps like you and me bothers to understand how this whole EU thing works, albeit there is plenty of informational portals in the web. However, as we have other priorities in our daily life one is far to ease dragged into poorly researched press contribution and falls to easy into the traps of populists of any color who stir emotions in this topic for the sake of gaining your vote, whether based on fear, macroeconomic facts and half facts, whatever....after all, when going to the ballot ask yourself who has really an advantage of BREXIT or not BREXIT. I can tell you one thing for sure..in either case its not you! " . I'll take a wild guess without any research that Google and Starbucks would hate the uk leaving the EU as there'd no longer be able to run corporation tax through Ireland while running vat through Luxembourg and the parent company through Italy while they pay... Wait a minute how did all these arrangements come about I wonder?... Oh yeah tax avoidance.. It's funny how some rules get made that suit the big corporations and then occasionally will come oh don't worry it applies to you slobs as well, yeah you can bring back as much booze and fags as you like.. Yeah right.. Mr customs officer I'm an EU citizen and this bounty is perfectly legal.. Ok just come in this shed while we seize your vehicle, goods and let you walk home!. The EU is fantasied over by the very people that can afford to move capital, goods and people... Every fucker else can just shut up and listen to this short propaganda film on how the UK will turn into a desert once you've disobeyed our orders!... I'll vote for the EU when Cameron, Osborne, the royalty, heads of international business empires tell me.. It's a terrible idea! Because quite frankly the history of these people show they couldn't give a rat's arse what's best for us, just what's best for them | |||
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"The latest "negotiations" are about to be vetoed by a jumped up little Eurocrats from a fatty little bankrupt country (Greece) unless we agree to take tens of thousands more refugees. In Europe we get blackmailed by countries that should never even be in EU because they never met the criteria for entry. Yes...we get £300 million "from" the EU for regional development. It is a tiny fraction of our own money that we pay in year on year....billions per year, to bail out inefficient farming practices in backward countries. While our more efficient farmers get nothing, yet are undercut by subsidised produce from other countries that WE are subsidising. The whole thing is a farce! The EU accounts have not been signed off for the last two decades because no firm of auditors anywhere on the planet will put their name to it because they would themselves then get done for fraud! OUT....as fast as possible please!" Cameron has embarrassed himself (and Britain) with this renegotiation, he has gone to the EU as our representative cap in hand practically begging them now to accept his pitiful requests for reform. Still they can't even give him that. Its pathetic. | |||
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"The latest "negotiations" are about to be vetoed by a jumped up little Eurocrats from a fatty little bankrupt country (Greece) unless we agree to take tens of thousands more refugees. In Europe we get blackmailed by countries that should never even be in EU because they never met the criteria for entry. Yes...we get £300 million "from" the EU for regional development. It is a tiny fraction of our own money that we pay in year on year....billions per year, to bail out inefficient farming practices in backward countries. While our more efficient farmers get nothing, yet are undercut by subsidised produce from other countries that WE are subsidising. The whole thing is a farce! The EU accounts have not been signed off for the last two decades because no firm of auditors anywhere on the planet will put their name to it because they would themselves then get done for fraud! OUT....as fast as possible please!" The sign off by the auditors of the EU's accounts for 2014 has been available since November 2015. The top level statement was : "The EU accounts for 2014 were correctly prepared in accordance with international standards and present a true and fair view. We were therefore able, once again, to give a clean opinion on their reliability". They also recommended better ways of managing the spend in the budget to reduce errors. The accounts have been consistently signed off for at least the previous 15 years. You could Google "2014 EU audit in brief" if you'd like to check the last 3 years of sign offs. The NFU has reported that UK farmers get 3.084 billion euros in support from the basic payment scheme (the 'CAP') and have access to another 5.2 bn between 2014 and 2020 in their paper on UK Farming's relationship with the EU. That sounds quite a lot more than nothing. | |||
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"I don't know about England but I wish Germany would leave the EU to these mostly third-world countries" When i worked in Germany I'll admit i met as many turks as sausage eaters. If we left Europe could i still work in Germany? | |||
"The latest "negotiations" are about to be vetoed by a jumped up little Eurocrats from a fatty little bankrupt country (Greece) unless we agree to take tens of thousands more refugees. In Europe we get blackmailed by countries that should never even be in EU because they never met the criteria for entry. Yes...we get £300 million "from" the EU for regional development. It is a tiny fraction of our own money that we pay in year on year....billions per year, to bail out inefficient farming practices in backward countries. While our more efficient farmers get nothing, yet are undercut by subsidised produce from other countries that WE are subsidising. The whole thing is a farce! The EU accounts have not been signed off for the last two decades because no firm of auditors anywhere on the planet will put their name to it because they would themselves then get done for fraud! OUT....as fast as possible please!" If we're getting into audited accounts: the ministry of defence accounts have been qualified for 5 years in a row, the whole of govenrment accounts have been qualified ever since they began in 2009/10 with absolutely no sign of the qualification issues being addressed any time soon, and the DWP accounts have been qualified every year for (count 'em) 16 years. The U.K.s institutions are not covering themselves in glory in this sphere either. | |||
"Lots of regional investment (ie your jobs and services) come from EU development funding. Do you think you'd get the same from the UK government. Point of comparison: the north east light rail and underground system was given about £300 million over 10 years to modernise and renovate stations, track, infrastructure and fleet. This was then cut by something like 20% Whereas a single station in London was given £500 million to make a bigger entrance and step free access. This was then increased to £1 billion to create an extra link to another rail track. I'd stick with the EU, because outside of London I feel more supported by the EU than Westminster. This is true,and for those of you gettin new windows / roofs / kitchens and bathrooms on your council properties(or housing association) ,do not think for one minute its the local council or government footing the bill,its all European money from the EU pushing up peoples standards of living....Shmucks like us with our own properties do not get this help though despite paying in,despite this being a socialist I plan to stay in the EU because outside of London nothing exists to these buffoons that run our country ,prob on less than 40 percent of the vote." Amen to all of this. I've worked on enough projects in England, Wales and Denmark to find that social housing and public services/infrastructure outside capitals/regional capitals are far more heavily bulked up with EU money or are taken on partially as an EU project. If you are outside of the South in the UK - your standards of living are upheld by the EU more than you realise usually. And for those who say "but the money we pay in we could invest on our own" really - think about it how much of that money would go on the City of London and bonuses for the already 1%. | |||
"I don't know about England but I wish Germany would leave the EU to these mostly third-world countries When i worked in Germany I'll admit i met as many turks as sausage eaters. If we left Europe could i still work in Germany?" You must have worked in Berlin; the second largest Turkish city in the world 
Why not; anyone with sought after qualifications would be welcome in Germany. What we can easily do without are the half-literate, corner-cutting lazy bums | |||
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"We are a net contributor to the EU, we can save ourselves loads of money getting out. It won't affect trade because most of our exports go through Europe t the rest of the world. The EU needs us more than we need them." Not trying to have a dig at all - especially since we had a lovely chat about tea the other day, but I am curious, where is the reference for most of our exports going through Europe to the rest of the world? Also yes we are a net contributer, but seeing as how the EU would loose our net input doesn't anyone think they' seek to recouple that from us. All I am goign to say is I can imagine the food and products we import from the EU countries could go up in price to make up for this. And we're not exactly in an economic situation or in a geographical situation to produce our own stuff at a lower cost. | |||
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"We are a net contributor to the EU, we can save ourselves loads of money getting out. It won't affect trade because most of our exports go through Europe t the rest of the world. The EU needs us more than we need them. Not trying to have a dig at all - especially since we had a lovely chat about tea the other day, but I am curious, where is the reference for most of our exports going through Europe to the rest of the world? Also yes we are a net contributer, but seeing as how the EU would loose our net input doesn't anyone think they' seek to recouple that from us. All I am goign to say is I can imagine the food and products we import from the EU countries could go up in price to make up for this. And we're not exactly in an economic situation or in a geographical situation to produce our own stuff at a lower cost. " You're right to ask for a reference and I need to find one. I did my Politics degree as a mature student and there was an option to study the EU. As I had always felt it was wrong I thought I should actually learn about it and make an informed opinion, not just an emotional one. That's when I learned about the exports. But I do need to find a reference for sure
Interestingly everyone in the class said the more they learned about the EU the more they realised how bad it was. And we had international students too. | |||
"I don't know about England but I wish Germany would leave the EU to these mostly third-world countries When i worked in Germany I'll admit i met as many turks as sausage eaters. If we left Europe could i still work in Germany?" Yes you can. But under similar work permit requirements like all non EU migrants...e.g turks. The freedom of applying business and work within the EU is for EU members only. Switzerland has some similar privileges but I guess countries like Greece or similar will deny Britain such privileged. ..I mean nothing to worry as I read the EU needs Britain more the VSVC. Right, Or? | |||
"We are a net contributor to the EU, we can save ourselves loads of money getting out. It won't affect trade because most of our exports go through Europe t the rest of the world. The EU needs us more than we need them. Not trying to have a dig at all - especially since we had a lovely chat about tea the other day, but I am curious, where is the reference for most of our exports going through Europe to the rest of the world? Also yes we are a net contributer, but seeing as how the EU would loose our net input doesn't anyone think they' seek to recouple that from us. All I am goign to say is I can imagine the food and products we import from the EU countries could go up in price to make up for this. And we're not exactly in an economic situation or in a geographical situation to produce our own stuff at a lower cost. You're right to ask for a reference and I need to find one. I did my Politics degree as a mature student and there was an option to study the EU. As I had always felt it was wrong I thought I should actually learn about it and make an informed opinion, not just an emotional one. That's when I learned about the exports. But I do need to find a reference for sure
Interestingly everyone in the class said the more they learned about the EU the more they realised how bad it was. And we had international students too.
"I believe it the EU is to much if a compromise between its members and their representatives are more concerned about the status quo of their local privileges as national politician than being concerned to find European solutions at common sense. Those woukd often come at the price if forementioned privileges | |||
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"We are a net contributor to the EU, we can save ourselves loads of money getting out. It won't affect trade because most of our exports go through Europe t the rest of the world. The EU needs us more than we need them. Not trying to have a dig at all - especially since we had a lovely chat about tea the other day, but I am curious, where is the reference for most of our exports going through Europe to the rest of the world? Also yes we are a net contributer, but seeing as how the EU would loose our net input doesn't anyone think they' seek to recouple that from us. All I am goign to say is I can imagine the food and products we import from the EU countries could go up in price to make up for this. And we're not exactly in an economic situation or in a geographical situation to produce our own stuff at a lower cost. You're right to ask for a reference and I need to find one. I did my Politics degree as a mature student and there was an option to study the EU. As I had always felt it was wrong I thought I should actually learn about it and make an informed opinion, not just an emotional one. That's when I learned about the exports. But I do need to find a reference for sure
Interestingly everyone in the class said the more they learned about the EU the more they realised how bad it was. And we had international students too."If you google "Edicom - Uktradeinfo" you can find HMRC's report on it from 2005 (EDICOM REPORT 200453202017) . Or you can get the ONS estimates of the size of the effect from 2015 by googling "UK Trade in goods estimates and the 'Rotterdam Effect' - ONS" | |||
"If you google "Edicom - Uktradeinfo" you can find HMRC's report on it from 2005 (EDICOM REPORT 200453202017) . Or you can get the ONS estimates of the size of the effect from 2015 by googling "UK Trade in goods estimates and the 'Rotterdam Effect' - ONS"" Thank you, I've just been reading about the Rotterdam effect I will look up the other too | |||
"I don't know about England but I wish Germany would leave the EU to these mostly third-world countries When i worked in Germany I'll admit i met as many turks as sausage eaters. If we left Europe could i still work in Germany? You must have worked in Berlin; the second largest Turkish city in the world
Why not; anyone with sought after qualifications would be welcome in Germany. What we can easily do without are the half-literate, corner-cutting lazy bums"Hamburg. | |||
"Just been listening to David Cameron arguing against the EWTD which limits working hours to 48 per week (or 56 if you opt out). There are also a variety of other worker's protections which we stand to lose if we leave and a conservative government is keen to do away with. It was argued the other day that 'households and the economy with benefit from EWTD removal'. What they fail to mention is that it is Bourgeois households that they are referring to. Working class workers will be utterly screwed. I'll be voting to stay in. I'm a working class grunt and I benefit by opting out of the working time directive. As a result I can choose to work overtime if it is available and increase my earnings. On a purely selfish level I erotic prefer to stay in as I own a flat in Spain. However, I will be listening to the arguments before making my mind up. It is always local politicians creativity how to apply an EU directive. I know that in Spain Germany or Netherlands employees make lots of additional hours in production companies whenever needed. Of course there are legal limits...but those are health and safety topics as obviously the risk of accidents increases as well as the risk of burn outs if the employee does not get sufficient time to recover from a hard days work. Of course...without EU directive the amount of work hours can be increased....I doubt it will increase your income though. Since Britain broke the power of the trade unions in the Thatcher time, once out of the EU there are no regulations to comply with...and the new local regulations/arrangements will primarily not serve the needs ofJohn Do... Is it because we are now a nation of spineless bastards who think having an allotment makes you a landowner? Yeah, something like that. It is that no one of regualr peeps like you and me bothers to understand how this whole EU thing works, albeit there is plenty of informational portals in the web. However, as we have other priorities in our daily life one is far to ease dragged into poorly researched press contribution and falls to easy into the traps of populists of any color who stir emotions in this topic for the sake of gaining your vote, whether based on fear, macroeconomic facts and half facts, whatever....after all, when going to the ballot ask yourself who has really an advantage of BREXIT or not BREXIT. I can tell you one thing for sure..in either case its not you! . I'll take a wild guess without any research that Google and Starbucks would hate the uk leaving the EU as there'd no longer be able to run corporation tax through Ireland while running vat through Luxembourg and the parent company through Italy while they pay... Wait a minute how did all these arrangements come about I wonder?... Oh yeah tax avoidance.. It's funny how some rules get made that suit the big corporations and then occasionally will come oh don't worry it applies to you slobs as well, yeah you can bring back as much booze and fags as you like.. Yeah right.. Mr customs officer I'm an EU citizen and this bounty is perfectly legal.. Ok just come in this shed while we seize your vehicle, goods and let you walk home!. The EU is fantasied over by the very people that can afford to move capital, goods and people... Every fucker else can just shut up and listen to this short propaganda film on how the UK will turn into a desert once you've disobeyed our orders!... I'll vote for the EU when Cameron, Osborne, the royalty, heads of international business empires tell me.. It's a terrible idea! Because quite frankly the history of these people show they couldn't give a rat's arse what's best for us, just what's best for them"
I think that is a good post and Mr EU himself Jean Claude Junker has major question marks over his head around his role in facilitating tax avoidance for big business and corporations during his 18 years as Luxembourg's Prime Minister. No wonder President of the European Commission Mr Jean Claude D*unker Juncker loves the EU so much the guy stinks to high heaven of corruption when it comes to tax avoidance.
Have a look at the following links if you want to look at it in more detail...
www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/14/jean-claude-juncker-luxembourg-tax-deals-controversy
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/606229/LuxLeaks-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Luxembourg-tax-avoidance-Prime-Minister | |||
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"Our country is fukd anyway . Does it really matter ? " It's not "fukd" and yes it actually matters | |||
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"In Europe is the UK's biggest customer. If we leave it will take years to put any kind of trade agreement in place. In the meantime business will suffer. On immigration, leaving the EU means that migrants land at Dover rather than be held at Calais. If you think operation stack on the M2 is bad,it will pale into insignificance when large parts of Kent become transit centres.Oh and you'll find that the SNP will go for independence and rejoin Europe. England will descend to a has been state. " Some people may try to tell you that the scenario of lorries backed up on the motorways is scaremongering. I was just reading this, which gives a very explicit analysis of what would happen if the UK moved straight to WTO terms for trading and started a tariff war: "In the case of the WTO option applying, the effects would be far more damaging, applying to the whole continent, and the UK. As European ports buckled under the unexpected burden of thousands of inspections and a backlog of testing, a huge range of loads would build up while test results and clearance was awaited. The system would grind to a halt. It would not just slow down. It would stop. As has been seen with Channel port disruptions in the past, trucks waiting to cross the Channel would be backed up the motorways nearly to London. The problem would be exacerbated by the system in force for products of animal origin. For third countries (as would be the UK), without reciprocal arrangements, the EU specifies the port of entry for such products, under the so called Border Inspection Post (BIP) system. This is to ensure sufficient facilities for inspection are available. This could have a devastating effect on the flow of British exports to EU Member States, especially as there are no facilities for handling the volume of goods that are currently involved. By contrast, Britain is already well equipped to check imported goods and, with a decentralised system of inland container ports, would not be under the same constraints as its European equivalents. For the UK, therefore, to impose similar conditions at the point of entry would breach WTO rules. In all respects, therefore, a strategy based on an expectation that Britain can rely solely on WTO rules, without securing any direct agreements with the EU – an in particular without securing an MRA on conformity assessment, would not be well founded. Britain would struggle to maintain its current levels of external trade and there would be a profound adverse effect on daily life and employment. Far from a potential three million job losses, with the knock-on effects to UK production, that number could easily double and then be exceeded by a substantial margin. That's taken from a document known as 'Flexcit' which is the Leave Alliance's market solution to leaving the EU. | |||
" Europe is the UK's biggest customer. " I am sorry the EU (not Europe) buys nothing. It is individual countries. And the USA is our biggest Export customer. Germany is second but it sells twice as much TO us it buys FROM us. "If we leave it will take years to put any kind of trade agreement in place. In the meantime business will suffer " Sorry that is simply not true. The trading agreements we inherit from the EU can stay in place. In fact the EU is obliged by its own Treaties to maintain the status quo. So how will business 'suffer'? " On immigration, leaving the EU means that migrants land at Dover rather than be held at Calais." Sorry that will not change. The positioning of the UK border in Calais is a bi-lateral agreement and nothing to do with the EU. " If you think operation stack on the M2 is bad,it will pale into insignificance when large parts of Kent become transit centres. " That has to be the most ill-founded scare story ever. And shame on you for repeating Cameron's ill thought out words. Nothing will change the day after a Brexit. " Oh and you'll find that the SNP will go for independence and rejoin Europe. England will descend to a has been state." Well who cares if they do to be honest. The Scots run a £12 Billion a year deficit with us. That is more than we pay into the EU a year ... The SNP will be a busted flush as soon the Scots start paying 15% more tax than us English, Welsh and Irish as the costs of the Socialist Nirvana promised by the SNP hit their Sporrans . You forgot the Welsh and Irish in your insult by the way. | |||
"The WTO has said we would get back our seat that we lost when we joined the EEC because of our global trading size. So SOMEONE thinks we are big enough!" The UK never lost its seat at the WTO. Julian Braithwaite is the UK ambassador to the World Trade Organisation, the International Labour Office and the World Economic Forum as half a dozen others. The EU is also represented on the WTO. | |||
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" Far from a potential three million job losses, with the knock-on effects to UK production, that number could easily double and then be exceeded by a substantial margin. That's taken from a document known as 'Flexcit' which is the Leave Alliance's market solution to leaving the EU. " You fail to mention some key facts. I take it that wasn't intentional. So let me help you. That last paragraph about 6 million lost jobs was YOUR opinion wasn't it and not part of this document? You also forgot to mention you took the segment you quoted ENTIRELY out of context. It comes from a 420 page document of 21 Sections that explored every possible scenario and discussed reasons why a particular scenario wouldn't work. You just 'selected' one of those reasons and misrepresented it as the thrust of the whole document. Utterly shameful .... but I am sure it was not intentional. Please feel free to remove your post accordingly. | |||
"In Europe is the UK's biggest customer. If we leave it will take years to put any kind of trade agreement in place. In the meantime business will suffer. On immigration, leaving the EU means that migrants land at Dover rather than be held at Calais. If you think operation stack on the M2 is bad,it will pale into insignificance when large parts of Kent become transit centres.Oh and you'll find that the SNP will go for independence and rejoin Europe. England will descend to a has been state. " First of all if we vote to leave the EU in the referendum that will then be a 2 year process in which we leave after we invoke article 50. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union During that 2 year period time we can make other bilateral agreements, trade negotiations, etc, so when the 2 year period is up all other arrangements will already be in place. Next point leaving the EU does not mean migrants will land at Dover instead of Calais. We have a bilateral agreement with France on border control which has nothing to do with the EU, it is a totally separate agreement called Treaty of Le Touquet. The Treaty of Le Touquet was made between the Labour Blair government and France's Chirac government in 2003, again totally separate bilateral agreement between Britain and France and nothing at all to do with the EU. Read all about it here on Wiki.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juxtaposed_controls On your last point about the SNP, if they manage to get another Scottish independence referendum and leave the UK, then an independent Scotland will have significant trouble joining the EU. Spain said very clearly during the Scottish referendum campaign that they would block any attempts by an independent Scotland to join the EU, and would veto it in the European Parliament. The reason Spain will do this is because of the Catalonia issue in their own country and they fear an independent Scotland joining the EU would be a green light for Catalonia to gain independence and then join the EU, which Spain is fully opposed to and fully committed to prevent from happening. Following link explains in more detail... www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29478415 | |||
" "If we leave it will take years to put any kind of trade agreement in place. In the meantime business will suffer " Sorry that is simply not true. The trading agreements we inherit from the EU can stay in place. In fact the EU is obliged by its own Treaties to maintain the status quo. So how will business 'suffer'?" Whilst you're right that the EU has to negotiate a deal and while negotiations are ongoing the UK will be protected by being able to go to the European Court of Justice, there's a problem for you to think about. I'm going to quote from Flexcit again - the leave campaign's bible for this. The main gist of it is that if the UK doesn't play nicely it will find itself being penalised by the WTO tariff system. All this bold stuff about where our power lies can evaporate in a second. The EU countries will vote on any deal and any one of them will be able to veto a trade agreement. If there's no agreement after two years the UK could drop into the WTO scenario and that isn't good news. From the Flexcit strategy: Even if it worked entirely within the remit of the treaties, though, the EU has some flexibility as to the nature of the trade agreement(s) it is prepared to discuss with the UK. It could take the view that conformity with the WTO framework is sufficient to satisfy treaty obligations. There is nothing in the treaties that explicitly requires a free trade agreement with Britain to be concluded. The reality, though, is more complicated. In the first instance, if the UK left the EU and did not negotiate a regional free trade agreement with the EU, it would acquire by virtue of its membership of the WTO the status of Most Favoured Nation (MFN) with the EU. In accordance with the rules of the WTO trading system, and especially the rules of equal treatment, the EU would then be obliged to impose the same tariffs under the same conditions as all the other countries that enjoyed MFN status. That would include tariffs on a wide range of industrial goods. Britain would not even qualify for reduced tariffs under the Generalised Scheme of Preferences (GSP). Currently, in trading with the rest of the world, Britain as an EU Member State benefits from tariff concessions negotiated by the EU. The differential rates it enjoys discriminate against parties which do not have trade agreements with the EU, but this is permitted under the rules concerning regional trade agreements. On leaving the EU, Britain would lose the protection of these rules, and be faced with MFN tariffs. The EU would have no choice in this. It must obey WTO rules. It must be understood that this means the restoration of the status quo ante, arising from the withdrawal of concessions specific to regional trade agreement membership. That is permitted. Perversely, if Britain sought to retaliate, the WTO's rules on equal treatment, and thus the prohibition of discrimination, would kick in. Tariffs imposed by the UK on goods from EU member states would have to be applied to similar goods from all other countries with which it did not have formal trade agreements. | |||
" Far from a potential three million job losses, with the knock-on effects to UK production, that number could easily double and then be exceeded by a substantial margin. That's taken from a document known as 'Flexcit' which is the Leave Alliance's market solution to leaving the EU. You fail to mention some key facts. I take it that wasn't intentional. So let me help you. That last paragraph about 6 million lost jobs was YOUR opinion wasn't it and not part of this document? You also forgot to mention you took the segment you quoted ENTIRELY out of context. It comes from a 420 page document of 21 Sections that explored every possible scenario and discussed reasons why a particular scenario wouldn't work. You just 'selected' one of those reasons and misrepresented it as the thrust of the whole document. Utterly shameful .... but I am sure it was not intentional. Please feel free to remove your post accordingly." No the quote about jobs came directly from the document. Obviously you haven't read it. I have. Go away and do some homework. Shameful indeed. Feel free to apologise for your laziness and rudeness. | |||
"The WTO has said we would get back our seat that we lost when we joined the EEC because of our global trading size. So SOMEONE thinks we are big enough! " You meant to give the impression that the UK has no representation at the WTO and that is a straightforward lie. Now you are back peddling with bullshit about what you really meant. If you want to debate what you really mean then say it - don't make some bullshit up afterwards that you really meant something else.. You said we don't have a seat at the WTO when we do. Julian Braithwaite is the UK ambassador to the World Trade Organisation For you to accuse others of misrepresenting the truth must be one of the biggest piece of chutzpah that's ever been put out here by the right wing luvvies. | |||
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"I see on the thread now the usual scaremongering stories from the Britain Stronger in Europe (BSE) campaign are being trotted out yet again. Just remember fabbers BSE also stands for mad cows disease, its one of the first things that comes up when you put BSE into google. "Ah so yet again, with nothing substantial to add to the discussion you sink into the perils of ad hominem. Don't forget fabbers that as a 3 letter acronym it also stands for Boringly Stupid Eurosceptic | |||
"I see on the thread now the usual scaremongering stories from the Britain Stronger in Europe (BSE) campaign are being trotted out yet again. Just remember fabbers BSE also stands for mad cows disease, its one of the first things that comes up when you put BSE into google.
Ah so yet again, with nothing substantial to add to the discussion you sink into the perils of ad hominem. Don't forget fabbers that as a 3 letter acronym it also stands for Boringly Stupid Eurosceptic"Funnily enough that does'nt come up when you type "BSE campaign" into google. However the term "Britain stronger in Europe" and "Mad cows disease" does! | |||
"Did you or did you not type: “The 28 member States of the EU are also WTO members in their own right". " Well technically I was actually quoting not writing. But I also quoted (which you selectively forgot to mention) that individually they have NO power in trade negotiations. Indeed they are (as the articles states) 1/28th of ONE place at the WTO. Being present is not the same as voting. So your point was exactly? | |||
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"Did you or did you not type: “The 28 member States of the EU are also WTO members in their own right". Well technically I was actually quoting not writing. But I also quoted (which you selectively forgot to mention) that individually they have NO power in trade negotiations. Indeed they are (as the articles states) 1/28th of ONE place at the WTO. Being present is not the same as voting. So your point was exactly?" My point would be that you wrote trying to imply that the uk has no represntative at the WTO now and will get one if we leave the eu. However that is wrong, we have a representative, Mr Brathwaite, and he is a whole person not 1/28th of an EU representative as you're now wriggling around to try to say or technically write The EU has a separate representative. Now that's exactly what the section you quoted said and now you're trying to deny it. Since you can't be bothered to get the basic facts right it's not worth looking at the rest of your point. | |||
"http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11209248/EU-auditors-refuse-to-sign-off-more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html Please check reality before saying EU accounts have been fully audited.....they haven't!" Did you look at the auditors report at the location I gave you? Did you read their conclusions? Of course not. Please check your propaganda against the original sources when looking for reality. | |||
"Right I am out of this. I have been banned once when I tried not to be reacting to inane personal abuse and lies. Its up to Admin now ..." To be fair I have to concede that you've shown yourself to be an expert in inane personal abuse, as some left wing luvvies on here will confirm. If you can't stand the heat don't come into the kitchen. | |||
Definitely OUT!!! | |||
"I see on the thread now the usual scaremongering stories from the Britain Stronger in Europe (BSE) campaign are being trotted out yet again. Just remember fabbers BSE also stands for mad cows disease, its one of the first things that comes up when you put BSE into google.
Ah so yet again, with nothing substantial to add to the discussion you sink into the perils of ad hominem. Don't forget fabbers that as a 3 letter acronym it also stands for Boringly Stupid Eurosceptic
Funnily enough that does'nt come up when you type "BSE campaign" into google. However the term "Britain stronger in Europe" and "Mad cows disease" does! "Funnily enough BSE stands for bovine spongiform encephalopathy. If it was MDC that would stand for mad cow disease. However BSE can also stand for boringly stupid eurosceptic. You'd be absolutely useless at the games on here where you have to suggest funny meanings for groups of letters.  | |||
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"People who want out of the EU are unhappy with it and want change.... People who are pro EU offer threats to us if we leave..... ... you takes your choice" | |||
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"Right I am out of this. I have been banned once when I tried not to be reacting to inane personal abuse and lies. Its up to Admin now ... To be fair I have to concede that you've shown yourself to be an expert in inane personal abuse, as some left wing luvvies on here will confirm. If you can't stand the heat do n't come into the kitchen." Ladies. This is a thread about a political matter - not my cock is bigger than your cock. If you can't play nicely and answer a simple question with a yes or a no then go sit on the bottom stair until you can. I'm not convinced that this thread should even be on here - mods, this is a swingers site, not crap political debates are us! | |||
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