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Plea bargaining
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Apparently new proposals are being considered to offer a reduced sentence to anyone who enters an early plea of guilt for a crime regardless of evidence ......
Apparently in some cases this could mean the length of sentence being cut by one third for someone pleading guilty to a serious crime.......
Seems to me we are heading towards a state of affairs where we no longer punish criminals.....
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By *abphilMan
over a year ago
sheffield |
"Apparently new proposals are being considered to offer a reduced sentence to anyone who enters an early plea of guilt for a crime regardless of evidence ......
Apparently in some cases this could mean the length of sentence being cut by one third for someone pleading guilty to a serious crime.......
Seems to me we are heading towards a state of affairs where we no longer punish criminals.....
"
Ha ha don't go there you are very right because the wrong doers dont live at the side of mps. Good luck! |
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By *abphilMan
over a year ago
sheffield |
"Apparently new proposals are being considered to offer a reduced sentence to anyone who enters an early plea of guilt for a crime regardless of evidence ......
Apparently in some cases this could mean the length of sentence being cut by one third for someone pleading guilty to a serious crime.......
Seems to me we are heading towards a state of affairs where we no longer punish criminals.....
"
Ha ha don't go there you are very right because the wrong doers dont live at the side of mps. Good luck! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Think it should only be relevant to specific crimes.
It is a sad indictment though,as it shows that defence teams try to muddy the water or look for technicalities to get their defendant off. As always tissue costs time and money hence this suggestion. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment........... |
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I also wonder if it will be used as a lever to encourage people to plead guilty even if they aren't. Hours in a police station, tired, nobody knows where you are and a kind police officer tells you it will all be ok if you plead guilty and the sentence won't be as long, you might as well since you're going down anyway. Will it lead to more cases collapsing when they get to court with people claiming coercion? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I also wonder if it will be used as a lever to encourage people to plead guilty even if they aren't. Hours in a police station, tired, nobody knows where you are and a kind police officer tells you it will all be ok if you plead guilty and the sentence won't be as long, you might as well since you're going down anyway. Will it lead to more cases collapsing when they get to court with people claiming coercion?"
This is very sad. Take a look at the Central Park jogger case from New York in 1989. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment........... "
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Apparently new proposals are being considered to offer a reduced sentence to anyone who enters an early plea of guilt for a crime regardless of evidence ......
Apparently in some cases this could mean the length of sentence being cut by one third for someone pleading guilty to a serious crime.......
Seems to me we are heading towards a state of affairs where we no longer punish criminals.....
"
that's nothing new at all it's always being like that early guilty plea for a third off I know these things  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney "
I'm sure they have done surveys .... and I'm sure a criminal who is severing a longer sentence is less able to re offend while serving that sentence,,,
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By *abphilMan
over a year ago
sheffield |
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney "
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Saves money both in terms of Prison and court costs. What's not to like?
Unless you're the poor victim.  "
But arguably the victim benefits too by not having to endure the emotional trauma of a trial |
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What's changed? A reduction of a sentence by 1/3rd when pleading guilty to an offence at the earliest opportunity (rather than proceeding to trial) has been in place for years. This slides up to 1/4 if a trial date has been set and 1/10 if the trial has already started.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
I'm sure they have done surveys .... and I'm sure a criminal who is severing a longer sentence is less able to re offend while serving that sentence,,,
"
Very true. But that is completely different than using the sentence as a deterrent to the initial crime.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Early guilty pleas are already taken in to account in sentencing. So what will change "
fuck the system do you really believe prison works before I had my daughter I went prison three times hanging round with the wrong crowd bla bla bla. I was a silly little teenager locked up with a pool table play station. Two canteens a week. Tobacco pff there's no deterrence in that. I had my little girl and now have my own roofing company. Prison didn't change me having my little one did. It makes people worse. Bring back national service
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Saves money both in terms of Prison and court costs. What's not to like?
Unless you're the poor victim.
But arguably the victim benefits too by not having to endure the emotional trauma of a trial"
Oh.... yeah and console themselves on the way home from court knowing the perpetrator of the crime against them will be released early......  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely"
That's different than a deterrent. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent. "
Ok perhaps we should call it an incentive... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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My understanding of it is that nothing will change from early guilty pleas but the later you plead guilty, the more remission you will lose, so in fact its more stick than carrot. |
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"My understanding of it is that nothing will change from early guilty pleas but the later you plead guilty, the more remission you will lose, so in fact its more stick than carrot."
Like I say, nothing's changed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Presumably the posters who are so against this don't agree with the fact that a not guilty plea in the face of overwhelming evidence will lead to a harsher sentence. Or is that different? |
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By *abphilMan
over a year ago
sheffield |
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent. "
Yes the deterrent is take 5years because you were caught redhanded and admitted guilt and saved money for a cash strapped system bit like saying to a child say your sorry and everything will be alright. I know your point that some crimes are not premeditated but people do or should know that wrong doing has consequences. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Ok perhaps we should call it an incentive... "
But that is what I mean. It seems to me that people conflate legal theories here to fit their own rhetoric.
There is a difference between deterrence and retribution. If you think someone committed a crime and should "do the time" then that is retribution. And that's fine if that is your argument.
However, if instead you uphold longer prison sentences and harsher punishments as deterrence then you need to show that they actually deter people from committing crimes. Lots of studies have been done to try and prove this. Some have shown that certain aspects of sentencing do deter - namely the certainty with which you will get a conviction. But the length of sentences has not, to my knowledge been proven successful in reducing crime.
So, what this type of plea bargaining does is increase the certainty of conviction (a guilty pleasure is always more certain that trual) while shortening the length of a sentence. It also saves prosecutors and tax payer plenty of money both in the cost of the prosecution and the cost of a longer jail sentence.
People should be punished for their crimes. But we can be smart about how we do it.
-Courtney |
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"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Ok perhaps we should call it an incentive... "
Do you want a lecture on Cesare Beccaria, Jeremy Bentham, Utilitarianism and Retributivism? It might help your understanding. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Yes the deterrent is take 5years because you were caught redhanded and admitted guilt and saved money for a cash strapped system bit like saying to a child say your sorry and everything will be alright. I know your point that some crimes are not premeditated but people do or should know that wrong doing has consequences."
Do some research then get back to me.
-Courtney |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My understanding of it is that nothing will change from early guilty pleas but the later you plead guilty, the more remission you will lose, so in fact its more stick than carrot.
Like I say, nothing's changed."
I think maybe some people have read a headlined and gone no further. |
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It already happens informally; CPS prosecute on whatvtheyvthink will be a conviction:
Degree of sentence is influenced by the defendants' behaviour and attitude.
However, formalizing it into a set formula or menu could be a difficult step. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Yes the deterrent is take 5years because you were caught redhanded and admitted guilt and saved money for a cash strapped system bit like saying to a child say your sorry and everything will be alright. I know your point that some crimes are not premeditated but people do or should know that wrong doing has consequences."
5 years inside is a detteren though. It's hardly a slap on the wrist |
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By *abphilMan
over a year ago
sheffield |
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Yes the deterrent is take 5years because you were caught redhanded and admitted guilt and saved money for a cash strapped system bit like saying to a child say your sorry and everything will be alright. I know your point that some crimes are not premeditated but people do or should know that wrong doing has consequences.
Do some research then get back to me.
-Courtney "
Any criminoligist want to enlighten us all. I know wrong doing gets (should get) punished is my thought provocative, nasty or just plain wrong? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Ok perhaps we should call it an incentive...
Do you want a lecture on Cesare Beccaria, Jeremy Bentham, Utilitarianism and Retributivism? It might help your understanding."
No-no I didn't start a thread asking a for a recommended reading list..... I'm not inviting posters to agree with me.....and I'm more than comfortable understanding other people are entitled to their own opinion...
As for where my understanding sits I'm more than happy to have that influenced by people making salient points that add value to the discussion in progress here..... |
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"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Yes the deterrent is take 5years because you were caught redhanded and admitted guilt and saved money for a cash strapped system bit like saying to a child say your sorry and everything will be alright. I know your point that some crimes are not premeditated but people do or should know that wrong doing has consequences.
Do some research then get back to me.
-Courtney
Any criminoligist want to enlighten us all. I know wrong doing gets (should get) punished is my thought provocative, nasty or just plain wrong?"
If I knew what you were trying to be enlightened about, I'd try and enlighten you!
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Yes the deterrent is take 5years because you were caught redhanded and admitted guilt and saved money for a cash strapped system bit like saying to a child say your sorry and everything will be alright. I know your point that some crimes are not premeditated but people do or should know that wrong doing has consequences.
Do some research then get back to me.
-Courtney
Any criminoligist want to enlighten us all. I know wrong doing gets (should get) punished is my thought provocative, nasty or just plain wrong?"
I'm not a criminologist. However I am trained in the law.
And don't twist my words. I never said your views were proactive, nasty, or wrong. I'm insinuating that they are ill informed. As I said, you sound like you support retribution. That's fine. But don't conflate it with deterrence. You have to have proof to support the latter.
-Courtney |
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"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Ok perhaps we should call it an incentive...
Do you want a lecture on Cesare Beccaria, Jeremy Bentham, Utilitarianism and Retributivism? It might help your understanding.
No-no I didn't start a thread asking a for a recommended reading list..... I'm not inviting posters to agree with me.....and I'm more than comfortable understanding other people are entitled to their own opinion...
As for where my understanding sits I'm more than happy to have that influenced by people making salient points that add value to the discussion in progress here..... "
Without a basic understanding of Utilitarianism (the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people) and Retributivism (lex talionis - an eye for an eye, basically), it's difficult to really understand our punishment and sentencing philosophies. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Ok perhaps we should call it an incentive...
Do you want a lecture on Cesare Beccaria, Jeremy Bentham, Utilitarianism and Retributivism? It might help your understanding.
No-no I didn't start a thread asking a for a recommended reading list..... I'm not inviting posters to agree with me.....and I'm more than comfortable understanding other people are entitled to their own opinion...
As for where my understanding sits I'm more than happy to have that influenced by people making salient points that add value to the discussion in progress here.....
Without a basic understanding of Utilitarianism (the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people) and Retributivism (lex talionis - an eye for an eye, basically), it's difficult to really understand our punishment and sentencing philosophies."
Bollicks.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Jesus Christ so many lawyers and judges in here today chilll out I was horny until I read this thread. Now all i can taste is porridge 
Why what you done wrong?"
that doesn't make sense |
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By *abphilMan
over a year ago
sheffield |
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Yes the deterrent is take 5years because you were caught redhanded and admitted guilt and saved money for a cash strapped system bit like saying to a child say your sorry and everything will be alright. I know your point that some crimes are not premeditated but people do or should know that wrong doing has consequences.
Do some research then get back to me.
-Courtney
Any criminoligist want to enlighten us all. I know wrong doing gets (should get) punished is my thought provocative, nasty or just plain wrong?
I'm not a criminologist. However I am trained in the law.
And don't twist my words. I never said your views were proactive, nasty, or wrong. I'm insinuating that they are ill informed. As I said, you sound like you support retribution. That's fine. But don't conflate it with deterrence. You have to have proof to support the latter.
-Courtney "
Ok i am now lost does a fixed penalty not act as a deterrent |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Yes the deterrent is take 5years because you were caught redhanded and admitted guilt and saved money for a cash strapped system bit like saying to a child say your sorry and everything will be alright. I know your point that some crimes are not premeditated but people do or should know that wrong doing has consequences.
Do some research then get back to me.
-Courtney
Any criminoligist want to enlighten us all. I know wrong doing gets (should get) punished is my thought provocative, nasty or just plain wrong?
I'm not a criminologist. However I am trained in the law.
And don't twist my words. I never said your views were proactive, nasty, or wrong. I'm insinuating that they are ill informed. As I said, you sound like you support retribution. That's fine. But don't conflate it with deterrence. You have to have proof to support the latter.
-Courtney
Ok i am now lost does a fixed penalty not act as a deterrent"
Read my earlier post that was answering soxy. Or, as I said, do some research about legal deterrence and the effectiveness (or not) of longer sentences.
- Courtney |
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By *abphilMan
over a year ago
sheffield |
"The severity of punishment should act as a deterrent to a criminal and not as an incentivise for them to make a calculated risk to reward assessment...........
They have done studies about this, in the US at least, and they have found that most people who commit crimes don't think about the sentencing at all, or very little. So the use of longer sentences as a deterrent is a bit of wishful thinking.
-Courtney
But they would take 5 years rather than 10 surely
That's different than a deterrent.
Yes the deterrent is take 5years because you were caught redhanded and admitted guilt and saved money for a cash strapped system bit like saying to a child say your sorry and everything will be alright. I know your point that some crimes are not premeditated but people do or should know that wrong doing has consequences.
Do some research then get back to me.
-Courtney
Any criminoligist want to enlighten us all. I know wrong doing gets (should get) punished is my thought provocative, nasty or just plain wrong?
I'm not a criminologist. However I am trained in the law.
And don't twist my words. I never said your views were proactive, nasty, or wrong. I'm insinuating that they are ill informed. As I said, you sound like you support retribution. That's fine. But don't conflate it with deterrence. You have to have proof to support the latter.
-Courtney
Ok i am now lost does a fixed penalty not act as a deterrent
Read my earlier post that was answering soxy. Or, as I said, do some research about legal deterrence and the effectiveness (or not) of longer sentences.
- Courtney "
Only asking sorry |
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By *ildt123Man
over a year ago
Huddersfield |
Depends how you word it, lighter sentence for guilty plea sounds liberal and wishy washy.
More severe sentence for those who insist on full trial seems harsh but they are same thing.
It's like being released " halfway through sentence" sounds soft, if you got six years but they let you out after three it's soft. But if you sentence someone to three years in jail and three years on licence with power of recall it seems less soft.
The legal system is slow and overly expensive it needs looking at but this is not really new at all |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
Read my earlier post that was answering soxy. Or, as I said, do some research about legal deterrence and the effectiveness (or not) of longer sentences.
- Courtney "
Oi you .... don't drag my name into the line of fire....
I'm only here to light the blue touch paper.   |
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By *abphilMan
over a year ago
sheffield |
"
Read my earlier post that was answering soxy. Or, as I said, do some research about legal deterrence and the effectiveness (or not) of longer sentences.
- Courtney
Oi you .... don't drag my name into the line of fire....
I'm only here to light the blue touch paper. "
Your fav song boom bang a bang lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Read my earlier post that was answering soxy. Or, as I said, do some research about legal deterrence and the effectiveness (or not) of longer sentences.
- Courtney
Oi you .... don't drag my name into the line of fire....
I'm only here to light the blue touch paper. "
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