FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Free Will?

Free Will?

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

In 2009 I started getting interested in science and especially human behavior related things. I learnt quite quick that we don't have free will. The science hasn't proved it conclusively yet (as far as I know) but I can work out in my head that we have 0% control over our thoughts and movement/actions.

Usually when I mention it people still seem to assume we have free will but the evidence just isn't there for it.

We live in a systems based reality it seems where everything is part of something else. To believe in free will is to believe that our decisions are made of their own accord. It's like believing that a table stays on the ground because it wants to as opposed to because of gravity and the structure of the table.

Does anyone else realize we have zero control?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Thought I was free?

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

We're in the Matrix and bin Laden was trying to get us out

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

http://youtu.be/Eusn2Y24-g8

Queen - I want to break free

*this post was inspired by _iamondjoe*

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Thought I was free?

Nature is the only true dictator ; )

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I like your theory however it's completely flawed? Unless I'm being stupid (quite likely) BUT if I don't go to work on Monday, that would be my freewill? I'm aware of the consequences? I don't have a choice because I have bills to pay HOWEVER if I didn't go that would be my freewill?

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By *ce WingerMan over a year ago

P.O. Box DE1 0NQ

www.youtube.com/watch?v=yljbcRu3tiU

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

[Removed by poster at 03/01/16 00:48:35]

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

Someone's finished the Christmas drink tonight

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

An interesting threat. We decide in a fraction of a second, well before we are conciously aware of it, if someone is desirable. As to the question of free will we must ultimately delve into quantum mechanics...

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I like your theory however it's completely flawed? Unless I'm being stupid (quite likely) BUT if I don't go to work on Monday, that would be my freewill? I'm aware of the consequences? I don't have a choice because I have bills to pay HOWEVER if I didn't go that would be my freewill?"

If you make he decision not to go to work then that decision would have come from some where. Cause and effect. Something happened that altered the movements you make and so you don't go to work.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

That should read thread. Fukin autocorrect has a Will of its own

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"An interesting threat. We decide in a fraction of a second, well before we are conciously aware of it, if someone is desirable. As to the question of free will we must ultimately delve into quantum mechanics..."

You could (but I don't know about quantum mechanics) but ultimately nothing can happen of it's own accord

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If you make he decision not to go to work then that decision would have come from some where. Cause and effect. Something happened that altered the movements you make and so you don't go to work.

I see what your point is however last year I woke up on a Monday morning and decided to go to Paris and I was there by 6am Monday night for a week lol there was no influence I just woke up and thought... I'm bored I'm off!

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

Damn sure I have free will

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Pm!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Has someone been reading David Icke with a touch of quantum physics?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not if you just get a severe case og the 'fuck-its'!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Has someone been reading David Icke with a touch of quantum physics?

Doesn't that guy think the Queen is a, "reptilian".

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Nope its pre determined if you decide to go to work or not it just appears to be your decision

If i decide to end this message with the word spam i didnt decide to or not it was already going to happen spam

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Cause and effect. Something caused you to want to go to Paris and the effect was, you went to Paris. I'm talking in terms of biology and you're brain, I don't mean free will as in free from a political dictatorship or social system. You have to break it down to the small scale of the physical activity in your brain.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Has someone been reading David Icke with a touch of quantum physics?

I'm not interested in quantum physics or David Icke.

I'm talking mainstream science. In the field on neurology (study of the brain) it's almost taboo now to believe in free will

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

SO if your going down the route of this cause and effect thing ultimately your saying everything happens for a reason? I am on the fence with this because if everything was pre determined and reasoned then why would people die in 9/11? Are you saying something in their brains told all the workers that day they had to go into the building and take their fate?

Oh I'm lost IN FACT I've lost this one lol this intellectual stuff goes over my head! Peace out!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Oh I'm lost IN FACT I've lost this one lol this intellectual stuff goes over my head! Peace out!"

Haha ok...but no cause and effect doesn't necessarily mean fate or pre-determined...or maybe it does but not like an entity.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

You could (but I don't know about quantum mechanics) but ultimately nothing can happen of it's own accord"

When you are your reflection in a pane of glass it means some photons of light are being reflected back into your eye. Which photon will be reflected is totally down to chance. Many scientists believe there are no hidden variables or hidden causes. Einstein did not like this and an increasing number of contemporary scientists feel that the proof that there are no hidden variables does not always hold.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

Are should be see. Autofkincorrect again.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I wouldn't trust a scientist who said there are no hidden variables. I would trust a scientist who said there are no hidden variables that we yet know of.

But lets say there aren't hidden variable and it's chance. Why would that mean we have free will? It is still cause and effect, it's just that the cause is randomly generated.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

I wouldn't trust a scientist who said there are no hidden variables. I would trust a scientist who said there are no hidden variables that we yet know of.

But lets say there aren't hidden variable and it's chance. Why would that mean we have free will? It is still cause and effect, it's just that the cause is randomly generated."

If there arnt hidden variables it means there is no cause, things happen by chance totally of themselves. There is nothing: the argument cannot be further reduced. A bit like Richard Feynman saying electromagnetism is just electromagnetism, attempts to describe it by analogy just get further from the truth.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

But there is still a cause, it's just that the cause is generated through randomness instead of something measurable. Now that I think about it I'm not sure I believe in randomness.

I was watching a podcast yesterday with that Brian Cox guy and he mentioned the idea that all possible realities happen. So what might appear to be random isn't. It's just this version of reality playing out and in another reality that light photon hitting your eye would be a different one.

Humans are barely out the jungle so I think if a scientist says that randomness is definitely real at the particle level (or quantum..) then he is basically saying he knows all of reality and can safely say there is no measurable cause.

I think it's more likely that we just haven't found the cause so things appear random...or the idea that the Brian Cox guy said.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

I'm so glad I have a simple brain all this thinking would wear me out

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By *gentNoSpringChickenWoman over a year ago

leeds

Perhaps we have taken multiple actions simultaniously but our brain is as yet unable to perceive ourselves in anything other than a single dimension in time?

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

When I first heard of things happening by pure chance without cause my spirit rebelled. I eventually came to think that it the most pure and simple description of the way the world is. But as I said some scientists are now disputing it (apart from the many worlds argument)

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By *izzyRascalWoman over a year ago

North Hants

"I'm so glad I have a simple brain all this thinking would wear me out

Me too

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

"I'm so glad I have a simple brain all this thinking would wear me out

Me too"

Well it leaves me too tired to decorate

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My feelings are this: Both are possible.

People react a certain way with their thoughts, it is likely these ways have come about from previous experiences but they may also have come about through ignorance also. I don't believe this is free will at all, despite you thinking you're making a conscious decision. Most of what you decide is based on what you already thought, new, and believed in. Truly open minded people are rare, with good reason sometimes.

I beleive it is entirely possible to have free will though. Without feelings like shame, guilt, prejudice, and especially care, people can make their own choices.

I don't believe in determinism though. And think too much science was based on that unfortunately (especially social and psychological sciences). Yes many things are predictable, but not everything is. Determinism and presuming everyone is the same is not what society should be aiming for but it often does when there aren't liberal people running it.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

We just are. But our perceptions of what we are is unlikely to be the reality. And with decisions and free will there is the same dilemma.

And whatever we are measuring is unlikely to be the real deal. That may be circumstantial to the process or just somehow correlated. In any event, we'll only have our sensory limited, biased, interpretation of what we measure.

I'm a huge believer in the power of our unconscious selves. I've used hypnosis since I was 11, when I started to study it. Our superficial more conscious selves are a flavour of what more there is to us. Where is cause and effect? We just are.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's the science behind it anyway? Neurological science isn't very accurate by the way, we just know parts of the brain 'light up' in correlation with other things.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

"My feelings are this: Both are possible.

I beleive it is entirely possible to have free will though. Without feelings like shame, guilt, prejudice, and especially care, people can make their own choices.

I confess I do not know what determinism means in the social sense. Is it that people are driven by sub-concious or barely perceived motives (and consider themselves to be enjoying free will)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"My feelings are this: Both are possible.

I beleive it is entirely possible to have free will though. Without feelings like shame, guilt, prejudice, and especially care, people can make their own choices.

I confess I do not know what determinism means in the social sense. Is it that people are driven by sub-concious or barely perceived motives (and consider themselves to be enjoying free will)"

It just means everything is determined, by whatever (some people call it fate or God) and was going to happen anyway. This theory would completely rule out free will altogether.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

So we empty the prisons as they couldn't help it?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We are very much subconscious driven, i believe, and that's after some observation of people themselves (including myself) and seeing a lot of scientific research into it.

It's how propaganda works, how social networks are formed, and how peoples overall mental state is formed. Imo.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"So we empty the prisons as they couldn't help it?"

No but it's dealt with in a different way.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So we empty the prisons as they couldn't help it?"

Rehabilitation should be the aim of prisons, this is changing how someone fundamentally thinks and treats others (or their property). Just punishing someone for committing crimes is pretty much useless, it keeps them out of the social circle and less harm happens to that circle (according to what that circle has decided is harmful) for the time they are locked up but without changing how they think then you might as well have not put them in there in the first place because they can come out the same, or even worse coz they learned how to do more crime.

Also the social circle has a part to play in treating the criminal fairly also. No good putting someone in prison for stealing food if they don't have access to food when they come out...in fact not having food as a basic right so shouldn't happen anyway. This could apply to many crimes as being unfair also and is why not all people get locked up for committing crimes, or don't even get the same sentence for the same crime.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

An interesting and logically consistent argument says that for the universe to function as it does God must have created it in a way that prevents him from interfering with its evolution. He created something the can only watch.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Yes that's a good point too. Instead of sending people to jail, design a social system that doesn't breed crime. The venus project (on the other thread) has been designed so that a lot of crimes wouldn't happen in the first place. For example, there would be no moneytary/barter system. Everyone has access to what they need so no reason to steal. Just now we live in what is basically a rationing system or scarcity which causes all sorts of problems that are so much less likely to happen in an abundance based system.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"An interesting and logically consistent argument says that for the universe to function as it does God must have created it in a way that prevents him from interfering with its evolution. He created something the can only watch."

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sounds epic however how would labour be sufficient? Would people still harvest and work for free etc?

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times."

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I replied in there and agree it's a good system that would work for the majority f people.

I think some people would still enjoy committing crimes against others, but not sure if they are born that way or are products of their surroundings...i like to think they are products of their experiences but have seen some good arguments to say they might be born like that.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Sounds epic however how would labour be sufficient? Would people still harvest and work for free etc? "

They've designed a new infrastructure where a lot of the production would be automated so we wouldn't need to work and have jobs like today. They estimate that only about 5% of the population would need to work at any given time just to basically make sure the machines and infrastructure was working and that work would be voluntary. So for example you might only work 1 hour a week or a few hours a month. People do lots of voluntary things already from charity shops to wikipedia so there would be no shortage of volunteers (I'd volunteer).

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat..."

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sounds epic however how would labour be sufficient? Would people still harvest and work for free etc?

This wouldn't work within the society we have today, we would need a devastating natural disaster beyond belief for this system to take effect. Most people are driven by technology, new products thus working to achieve such a thing! I'd volunteer and I think most people would but without work I think we would all be screwed!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I replied in there and agree it's a good system that would work for the majority f people.

In a TVP type of system they would be a lot more vigilant for that type of thing so would be more likely to pick up on it at an early age and maybe even have some type of set up where new borns or infants are 'tested' or have their brains scanned or something to try and find a potential problem quicker and find a way to deal with it and help the kid. Also, I think people who are born with some type of pre-disposition to say violence for example would be a lot less likely to be violent in that type of system because it's a very different environment to be brought up in so would be less likely to bring out that violent part. It might still happen sometimes but they would use that to find out what went wrong and if possible make changes to try and prevent it again.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sounds epic however how would labour be sufficient? Would people still harvest and work for free etc?

Spent all my spare time learning when i got the chance and it cost me nothing financially to do so, which is how come i can have conversations like the one in this topic right now.

Imagine if we all were allowed to have our own lives and were really able to make our own choices. It's awesome. I hate being a slave and reckon more people would love to have more freedom.

We've just had the holidays now, how many are really looking forward to going back to full time work? Not me.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?"

If one avers that the universe was created by a God the only scientifically consistent position to take is that the God cannot intervene in the running of the world. People who create and run religion won't like this because they do very nicely pretending they can interceed with god on our behalf. The worlds oldest scam.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I replied in there and agree it's a good system that would work for the majority of people.

I'm not sure myself, it does sound more hopeful and less stressful than the society we have now, which can only be a good thing for many people (and i do believe most people would benefit from a society like this).

But we don't know enough about mental illnesses as of now to do that, in a society like TVP there would be plenty more time for research so i do think we'd advance a lot more quickly than we have already and learn more.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?

Not sure if that would work as an argument against there even being a god also lol.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

More likely that humans are just a blip in the progress of the planet soon to be eradicated by viruses. Maybe a similar species will evolve before the sun explodes in a supanova.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"More likely that humans are just a blip in the progress of the planet soon to be eradicated by viruses. Maybe a similar species will evolve before the sun explodes in a supanova."

I like how the future affects the past, somehow. It's why we have no purpose maybe, coz we are all gonna die anyway.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

"More likely that humans are just a blip in the progress of the planet soon to be eradicated by viruses. Maybe a similar species will evolve before the sun explodes in a supanova.

I like how the future affects the past, somehow. It's why we have no purpose maybe, coz we are all gonna die anyway."

we're doomed

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"More likely that humans are just a blip in the progress of the planet soon to be eradicated by viruses. Maybe a similar species will evolve before the sun explodes in a supanova.

I like how the future affects the past, somehow. It's why we have no purpose maybe, coz we are all gonna die anyway.

we're doomed

Haha.

But not really. I predict (despite not believing in determinism) that mankind will become Gods themselves, we're pretty close as it is already when you think about it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"More likely that humans are just a blip in the progress of the planet soon to be eradicated by viruses. Maybe a similar species will evolve before the sun explodes in a supanova.

I like how the future affects the past, somehow. It's why we have no purpose maybe, coz we are all gonna die anyway.

we're doomed

How many of us can honestly say we would be sad if we learned we would all be wiped out tomorrow?! I'd just think well thank God that's over with lol take me to promise land with 7 virgin wives lol!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"More likely that humans are just a blip in the progress of the planet soon to be eradicated by viruses. Maybe a similar species will evolve before the sun explodes in a supanova.

I like how the future affects the past, somehow. It's why we have no purpose maybe, coz we are all gonna die anyway.

we're doomed

Haha.

But not really. I predict (despite not believing in determinism) that mankind will become Gods themselves, we're pretty close as it is already when you think about it."

I think your spot on with this. We will be star travellers before the sun dies out and we will populate on other planets indefinetly, to be fair I think that's how we ended up here!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"More likely that humans are just a blip in the progress of the planet soon to be eradicated by viruses. Maybe a similar species will evolve before the sun explodes in a supanova.

I like how the future affects the past, somehow. It's why we have no purpose maybe, coz we are all gonna die anyway.

we're doomed

Haha.

But not really. I predict (despite not believing in determinism) that mankind will become Gods themselves, we're pretty close as it is already when you think about it.

I think your spot on with this. We will be star travellers before the sun dies out and we will populate on other planets indefinetly, to be fair I think that's how we ended up here! "

If what they say about Venus is true, that it's full of polluted gases and that, i do reckon we, humans, left it in that state tbh.

But yeah if we created ourselves, how amazing would that be... really?

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?

Not sure if that would work as an argument against there even being a god also lol.

If God wanted to intervene he have to be constantly fiddling with the quantum mechanics. Believe me folks, he couldn't be bothered.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?

Not sure if that would work as an argument against there even being a god also lol.

If God wanted to intervene he have to be constantly fiddling with the quantum mechanics. Believe me folks, he couldn't be bothered."

I'm God right noe and fiddling away with stuff as we're speaking. As an omnipotent being i can do this.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?

Not sure if that would work as an argument against there even being a god also lol.

If God wanted to intervene he have to be constantly fiddling with the quantum mechanics. Believe me folks, he couldn't be bothered."

I hope one day someone will fake a ufo so realistic that we truly believe we have been visited and information provided meaning we can drop this religious milarki and move forward! The only way that could happen is if a visit is staged, we are in 2016 and people are still looking to God!

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?

Not sure if that would work as an argument against there even being a god also lol.

If God wanted to intervene he have to be constantly fiddling with the quantum mechanics. Believe me folks, he couldn't be bothered.

I'm God right noe and fiddling away with stuff as we're speaking. As an omnipotent being i can do this."

Nah, God is a bloke. The church says so.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?

Not sure if that would work as an argument against there even being a god also lol.

If God wanted to intervene he have to be constantly fiddling with the quantum mechanics. Believe me folks, he couldn't be bothered.

I'm God right noe and fiddling away with stuff as we're speaking. As an omnipotent being i can do this.

Nah, God is a bloke. The church says so."

I, as God, say that's BS.

Kind of strange though how we have the word omnipotent, a word for something that probably doesn't even exist.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?

Not sure if that would work as an argument against there even being a god also lol.

If God wanted to intervene he have to be constantly fiddling with the quantum mechanics. Believe me folks, he couldn't be bothered.

I'm God right noe and fiddling away with stuff as we're speaking. As an omnipotent being i can do this.

Nah, God is a bloke. The church says so.

I, as God, say that's BS.

Kind of strange though how we have the word omnipotent, a word for something that probably doesn't even exist."

And infallible for the top religious honcho who believes in him

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?

Not sure if that would work as an argument against there even being a god also lol.

If God wanted to intervene he have to be constantly fiddling with the quantum mechanics. Believe me folks, he couldn't be bothered.

I'm God right noe and fiddling away with stuff as we're speaking. As an omnipotent being i can do this.

Nah, God is a bloke. The church says so.

I, as God, say that's BS.

Kind of strange though how we have the word omnipotent, a word for something that probably doesn't even exist.

And infallible for the top religious honcho who believes in him

Up to them. Night, i'm gonna get some sleep i think i should do that.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

The bible says something different though. God has sent plagues, floods, all kinds of shit and interfered many times.

But the men who wrote the bible intended to scare the shit out of the followers to keep them in line. And why priests are fat...

So you just believe in Deism? Sure i guess that could be true then.

What's the argument for it? Does it also support free will?

Not sure if that would work as an argument against there even being a god also lol.

If God wanted to intervene he have to be constantly fiddling with the quantum mechanics. Believe me folks, he couldn't be bothered.

I'm God right noe and fiddling away with stuff as we're speaking. As an omnipotent being i can do this.

Nah, God is a bloke. The church says so.

I, as God, say that's BS.

Kind of strange though how we have the word omnipotent, a word for something that probably doesn't even exist.

And infallible for the top religious honcho who believes in him

Up to them. Night, i'm gonna get some sleep i think i should do that."

Nite mz omnipotent

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By *ENGUYMan over a year ago

Hull

Errm, I have free will.

Look, I'm on here, my decision. I chose to look at the various Topics in the Forum pages.

No one, or any outside influence forced me to be in here.

OP's theory shot down in flames!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Look into my eyes, look into the eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around the eyes, look into my eyes... (clicks) you're under, send me your bank account details and a picture of yourself dressed up and Maggie Thatcher, 3, 2, 1, you're back in the room.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

"Look into my eyes, look into the eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around the eyes, look into my eyes... (clicks) you're under, send me your bank account details and a picture of yourself dressed up and Maggie Thatcher, 3, 2, 1, you're back in the room."

You want me to ex pm you?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"In 2009 I started getting interested in science and especially human behavior related things. I learnt quite quick that we don't have free will. The science hasn't proved it conclusively yet (as far as I know) but I can work out in my head that we have 0% control over our thoughts and movement/actions.

Usually when I mention it people still seem to assume we have free will but the evidence just isn't there for it.

Does anyone else realize we have zero control? "

Whats interesting is you phrase all this as if you realised/discovered/wworked this out.

If you are correct you did no such thing.

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By *ohn_d57Man over a year ago

Bedlington

You could (but I don't know about quantum mechanics) but ultimately nothing can happen of it's own accord"

have you read the books by James Redfield "The Celestine Prophecy" very much like what your saying

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By *ndykinkyMan over a year ago

STOKE-ON-TRENT

Still just another scientific theory that they can't prove yet.

Same as the Theory of Relatively and other things.

Most of these theories involve numbers so big they invent numbers to make them work.

Infinity was supposed to be the largest number you could think of plus. These days scientists use regularly use numbers that they say are bigger than infinity, so how does that work.

The System Theory is a way of trying to explain missing bits of other theories.

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

Usually when I mention it people still seem to assume we have free will but the evidence just isn't there for it.

Does anyone else realize we have zero control? "

My take on it is , we don't have as much free will as we feel we do , however

Both our brains and environment are "chaotic" systems thus technically not entirely predicable , giving the human mind the ability to form individual non predicable decisions thus free will to a practical degree

Generally we work within pretty tight predicable parameters however this does not mean the micro management within these parameters cannot be deemed free

I would say to excercise the most of ones potential free will one must understand and accept how little we do have xx

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f

Exercise your free will and watch this for 2 mins

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f

Exercise your free will and watch this for 2 mins

Oh no! Now i can't !

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f

Exercise your free will and watch this for 2 mins

Oh no! Now i can't !"

Free won't?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f

Exercise your free will and watch this for 2 mins

Oh no! Now i can't !

Free won't?"

Come again?

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f

Exercise your free will and watch this for 2 mins

Oh no! Now i can't !

Free won't?

Come again?

Twice in a session? You must be horny.

No. The concept of 'Free Won't' follows from the hypothesis that free will doesn't exist but that we do, however, retain a form of will to NOT do something, if we choose.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Haven't read all the comments, but it's one of the oldest dilemmas.

do we have free will, or is it all pretty much determined.

Well the law thinks we have free will, but it's quite interesting to look at scenarios where we're not considered liable for our actions.

Or put another way, some of us are more responsible for what we do, than others.

Eg, commit same crime and it's a certainty a female will get less of a jail sentence.

Sometimes it's cos she's a mum, can see the sense here. But not always.

Plenty other examples out there.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Haven't read all the comments, but it's one of the oldest dilemmas.

do we have free will, or is it all pretty much determined.

Well the law thinks we have free will, but it's quite interesting to look at scenarios where we're not considered liable for our actions.

Or put another way, some of us are more responsible for what we do, than others.

Eg, commit same crime and it's a certainty a female will get less of a jail sentence.

Sometimes it's cos she's a mum, can see the sense here. But not always.

Plenty other examples out there."

I'm not sure how extenuating or mitigating circumstances in sentencing contributes to the debate on free will?

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

This is one of the oldest questions in psychology, and in other fields such as philosophy, debated for centuries

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Then there was the chef Evans case.

2 pissed up people, or 3 if you count the other guy.

So, both pissed up parties engage in sex willingly.

But then he is held criminally responsible and she isn't?

Him for fucking her when she 'can't give consent' cos too pissed.

But him being pissed is still liable for his actions, and hers.

Yeah, British justice . Fair innit??

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

The free will issue is especially difficult because it represents a collision between two opposing, yet equally valid, view points.

From a purely metaphysical perspective, if we don't have free will, why are we here? What is the point of life if we cannot choose our own paths?

Yet from a purely scientific perspective, how is it possible that anything can occur without having been caused by something else? If we really can choose, then these choices must be uncaused - something that cannot be explained within the model of science that many of us rely on.

The long and short is that there is no scientific or psychiatric consensus.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f

Exercise your free will and watch this for 2 mins

As I mentioned previously, the Libet Experiment (1985) has been used to 'prove' that free will is an illusion.

BUT

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Has someone been reading David Icke with a touch of quantum physics?

I'm not interested in quantum physics or David Icke.

I'm talking mainstream science. In the field on neurology (study of the brain) it's almost taboo now to believe in free will"

I'll put that point to my neurosurgeon niece..... I'm sure she too will think you are talking utter roundish things.

The fact we do have free will is what stops us making true "artificial intelligence". We can decide to do something irrational or stupid...machines/computers don't.

Generally we all have pressure to make particular decisions...ie go to work each morning....but ultimately we can decide not to.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Usually when I mention it people still seem to assume we have free will but the evidence just isn't there for it.

Does anyone else realize we have zero control? "

We all have options/choices.

Our free will decides which we choose.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Other psychological theories are actually based on an assumption of free will—or at least they are at first glance.

Self-determination theory, for example, holds that volitional functioning—intentional, freely chosen behavior—is a basic human need (Deci & Ryan, 1985).

Theories of personal identity, especially those rooted in Erikson’s (1950) ego psychology, state that adolescents and young adults must deliberately make sense of the world around them and of their place within that world (Côté & Levine, 2002; McAdams, 2013).

Maslow’s (1968) humanistic theory regards self-actualization—identifying and living according to one’s highest potentials—as the ultimate goal of human existence.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Haven't read all the comments, but it's one of the oldest dilemmas.

do we have free will, or is it all pretty much determined.

Well the law thinks we have free will, but it's quite interesting to look at scenarios where we're not considered liable for our actions.

Or put another way, some of us are more responsible for what we do, than others.

Eg, commit same crime and it's a certainty a female will get less of a jail sentence.

Sometimes it's cos she's a mum, can see the sense here. But not always.

Plenty other examples out there.

I'm not sure how extenuating or mitigating circumstances in sentencing contributes to the debate on free will?"

Yeah it's a bit oblique for this time of day.

My point is free will means you can be held responsible for actions committed, not done under duress.

But clearly , when similar actions are committed under similar circumstances - the responsibility should be equal ?

Ergo sentences should be similar no?

But the sentences are rarely similar , which suggests a belief that genders don't carry same responsibility.

Or is it another factor? Possibly

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

This brings us to an inherent incompatibility.

How can a person make self-determined choices, make sense of the world, and even self-actualise when neuroscientific evidence seems to indicate that our brains are making decisions before we even realise it?

Are we really just automatons—creatures without the ability to choose?

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

HOWEVER:

Psychologists such as Roy Baumeister (2008) have attempted to develop a science of free will, but much of Baumeister’s argument focuses on the consequences of believing (or not believing) in free will—rather than on whether or not we actually have free will.

Essentially, what matters is whether we think we are making choices, regardless of whether our behavior is really “uncaused”.

If you follow, believing that we are free leads us to act as though we are, and he has conducted experiments indicating that telling people that they have no free will leads them to behave in socially irresponsible ways such as cheating and refusing to help others.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

THEREFORE:

So if Baumeister is correct, then does it really matter whether we actually have free will?

Or does it matter only whether we believe that we do?

And if that *is* true, and if people behave when they think they *don’t* have free will are accurate, then should scientists be careful about making statements against free will?

Are such statements encouraging people to behave as though they are not responsible for their behavior?

Unravel that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f

Exercise your free will and watch this for 2 mins

Oh no! Now i can't !

Free won't?

Come again?

Twice in a session? You must be horny.

No. The concept of 'Free Won't' follows from the hypothesis that free will doesn't exist but that we do, however, retain a form of will to NOT do something, if we choose. "

Ah, then yeah.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Quantum mechanics?

It's metaphysics, and I guess science could possibly throw some light on it.

not sure how quantum mechanics specifically would help? But then I know sfa about QM!

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By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

Quantum mechanics?

It's metaphysics, and I guess science could possibly throw some light on it.

not sure how quantum mechanics specifically would help? But then I know sfa about QM!"

I watched a programme where this guy was explaining the basics of QM ......and to be honest I could just not grasp the everything an everywhere concept of those atom thingy's .....well above my pay grade but also very interesting ....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Usually when I mention it people still seem to assume we have free will but the evidence just isn't there for it.

Does anyone else realize we have zero control? "

That's BS - we chose to do things on a daily basis

IE ham over chicken in our sandwiches

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Usually when I mention it people still seem to assume we have free will but the evidence just isn't there for it.

Does anyone else realize we have zero control?

That's BS - we chose to do things on a daily basis

IE ham over chicken in our sandwiches "

Ah, but see The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Usually when I mention it people still seem to assume we have free will but the evidence just isn't there for it.

Does anyone else realize we have zero control?

That's BS - we chose to do things on a daily basis

IE ham over chicken in our sandwiches

Ah, but see The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f"

I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

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By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

Usually when I mention it people still seem to assume we have free will but the evidence just isn't there for it.

Does anyone else realize we have zero control?

That's BS - we chose to do things on a daily basis

IE ham over chicken in our sandwiches

Ah, but see The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f"

From the little I understood of QM that choice has been made long before you actually make it....

Sorry ....I am blonde btw....

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous "

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then"

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

Three years of psychology makes me stupid & ignorant?

"Wotevs," as my mum would say.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

Three years of psychology makes me stupid & ignorant?

"Wotevs," as my mum would say.

Yes - that isn't the basis of credibility - it means you can do marriage counselling

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

Three years of psychology makes me stupid & ignorant?

"Wotevs," as my mum would say.

Yes - that isn't the basis of credibility - it means you can do marriage counselling

I was actually a caseworker drugs/alcohol/mental health for a charity in south London for 10 years.

I think I'm quite qualified to give advice, dude.

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By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

Usually when I mention it people still seem to assume we have free will but the evidence just isn't there for it.

Does anyone else realize we have zero control?

That's BS - we chose to do things on a daily basis

IE ham over chicken in our sandwiches

Ah, but see The Libet Experiment: Is free will just an illusion?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b8y3f

I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous "

Surely any quest for knowledge no matter how it is researched is the way we learn, so why knock someone who has an interest in learning ....

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Surely any quest for knowledge no matter how it is researched is the way we learn, so why knock someone who has an interest in learning ...."

It's alright - he's just a bit pent up.

(needs a wank)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Surely any quest for knowledge no matter how it is researched is the way we learn, so why knock someone who has an interest in learning ....

It's alright - he's just a bit pent up.

(needs a wank)

I got laid last night - so unlike you I am alright

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Surely any quest for knowledge no matter how it is researched is the way we learn, so why knock someone who has an interest in learning ....

It's alright - he's just a bit pent up.

(needs a wank)

I got laid last night - so unlike you I am alright "

You have NO idea what I did last night LMFAO

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By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

Wow ....I really don't mind appearing either stupid or ignorant if I want to learn something ....

' if you do not seek so shall you not find'

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

Wow ....I really don't mind appearing either stupid or ignorant if I want to learn something ....

' if you do not seek so shall you not find' "

It's ok - he's in a bad mood.

(just needs a wank)

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By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

And being totally honest here as all this is well above me, maybe someone on here can put me straight on the way I thought I had understood the basics.....as in

QM relates to the physical atomic structure of our universe ...whereas

QP relates to how the universe is calculated and defined.....

Is that right or am I being a little dumb blonde asking stoopid questions? Again

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Rush - Freewill (live) http://youtu.be/nhcM_hx0zxw

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

Wow ....I really don't mind appearing either stupid or ignorant if I want to learn something ....

Not sure a forum on a swinging site is a place to learn - sorry

Go to a library or university

' if you do not seek so shall you not find' "

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By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

Wow ....I really don't mind appearing either stupid or ignorant if I want to learn something ....

Not sure a forum on a swinging site is a place to learn - sorry

Go to a library or university

' if you do not seek so shall you not find' "

But it is a place to find opinions from those that may be much closer to my IQ .....

Sorry that sounds insulting ......

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

Wow ....I really don't mind appearing either stupid or ignorant if I want to learn something ....

Not sure a forum on a swinging site is a place to learn - sorry

Go to a library or university

' if you do not seek so shall you not find'

But it is a place to find opinions from those that may be much closer to my IQ .....

Sorry that sounds insulting ......

Only insulting yourself - there are plenty of idiots on here

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

Wow ....I really don't mind appearing either stupid or ignorant if I want to learn something ....

Not sure a forum on a swinging site is a place to learn - sorry

Go to a library or university

' if you do not seek so shall you not find'

But it is a place to find opinions from those that may be much closer to my IQ .....

Sorry that sounds insulting ......

Only insulting yourself - there are plenty of idiots on here"

To be honest I've only noticed a few

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Haven't read all the comments, but it's one of the oldest dilemmas.

do we have free will, or is it all pretty much determined.

Well the law thinks we have free will, but it's quite interesting to look at scenarios where we're not considered liable for our actions.

Or put another way, some of us are more responsible for what we do, than others.

Eg, commit same crime and it's a certainty a female will get less of a jail sentence.

Sometimes it's cos she's a mum, can see the sense here. But not always.

Plenty other examples out there.

I'm not sure how extenuating or mitigating circumstances in sentencing contributes to the debate on free will?

Yeah it's a bit oblique for this time of day.

My point is free will means you can be held responsible for actions committed, not done under duress.

But clearly , when similar actions are committed under similar circumstances - the responsibility should be equal ?

Ergo sentences should be similar no?

But the sentences are rarely similar , which suggests a belief that genders don't carry same responsibility.

Or is it another factor? Possibly "

They weigh up all circumstances.

If sending someone to prison will affect other people in a negative way then you're less likely to get sent to prison, or punished. So women with children might be less likely to be sent to prison if they're children will end up in care. It's also why they allow very young children to stay in prison with their parents, because this is thought to be better than taking them from their parents.

Same for motor offences. If you would lose your job over losing your license then they might not take your license.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Usually when I mention it people still seem to assume we have free will but the evidence just isn't there for it.

Does anyone else realize we have zero control?

That's BS - we chose to do things on a daily basis

IE ham over chicken in our sandwiches "

Do you know why you chose ham though? Why didn't you have chicken? Why not both if both were available? Why do you even eat ham or chicken sandwiches in the first place?

If you really think about it do you know why you make any of your choices.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Errm, I have free will.

Look, I'm on here, my decision. I chose to look at the various Topics in the Forum pages.

No one, or any outside influence forced me to be in here.

OP's theory shot down in flames!

How do you know there was no influence or cause for you to be on here? Most of the activity in our brains is sub-conscious. You obviously enjoy coming on the forum here or you wouldn't be here...so that's one influence straight away (you're stimulated by the forum).

You had to know the site existed in the first place so just even knowing about the site affects your decision process. etc..etc..etc...

Our brains apparently have billions of neurons that fire billions of times a second. Our body chemistry is complex and affects us also. I think the people who are saying things like the guy in the above quote aren't fully grasping what I'm saying. They aren't taking into account the process of the brain and body. Their just saying...we have free, just because.

As for the guy who said his niece is a neurosurgeon..so? I've heard plenty of reputable scientists who don't believe in it. Robert Sapolsky is one guy who behavioral biologist (or something like that) and on YouTube they have his lectures up from Stamford Uni and at the beginning he asks the class "who believes in free will" Hands go up, he then says "you won't by the end of this course" (or words to that effect).

They're teaching this in Uni now. It's not some wacky thing that some random fringe scientist once said.

It's not yet proven yet though so yes there are some scientists who do believe in it but I can't fathom how our behaviour, thoughts and movements just come out of no-where. It's all about processes and interacting parts...most of which we aren't aware of.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Basically people who believe in free will don't fully understand connections or see connections in the same way that people who don't believe in it do.

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By *reelove1969Couple over a year ago

bristol

6 am at night ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Basically people who believe in free will don't fully understand connections or see connections in the same way that people who don't believe in it do. "

They feel like they made a choice that's all. And they did actually make one.

I think you'd need some understanding of neurology, philosophy and psychology to discuss this subject a bit deeper to try to figure out what actually happens when you make choices than what you felt happened.

I watch Sapolsky on youtube, he's really easy to understand, good teacher.

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By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

"Basically people who believe in free will don't fully understand connections or see connections in the same way that people who don't believe in it do. "

Now be Honest did you really post that of your own free will ?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Now be Honest did you really post that of your own free will ?

As far as I'm aware, no.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

They feel like they made a choice that's all. And they did actually make one.

I watch Sapolsky on youtube, he's really easy to understand, good teacher.

Indeed : )

The only difference I would make is that we don't 'make' decisions, we 'arrive' at them

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By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

Now be Honest did you really post that of your own free will ?

As far as I'm aware, no."

I'm 100% with you on this and sparky(as I call him) is pure genius that you can actually almost begin to understand.....well if your not me that is

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I'm 100% with you on this and sparky(as I call him) is pure genius that you can actually almost begin to understand.....well if your not me that is

Yeh he's good at explaining things...even if I have to listen a couple times to get it

lol

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The power to choose, free will is a great gift, educated men with their theories may seek to explain it away with their clever tongues and flattering words that seem pleasing to the ears of men, but each day we all make choices, some that bring rewards , others that condemn us...

Without this gift of free will we could not progress, nor learn, gain experience and know to appreciate the sweet from the bitter

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"The power to choose, free will is a great gift, educated men with their theories may seek to explain it away with their clever tongues and flattering words that seem pleasing to the ears of men, but each day we all make choices, some that bring rewards , others that condemn us...

Without this gift of free will we could not progress, nor learn, gain experience and know to appreciate the sweet from the bitter"

Another one. We have free will...just because.

It's like a religion.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Without this gift of free will we could not progress, nor learn, gain experience and know to appreciate the sweet from the bitter

Another one. We have free will...just because.

It's like a religion.

Its called common sense, something educated fools have long lost........

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To believe in free will is to believe that our decisions are made of their own accord. "

That's is the flaw you're starting from.

You are coming from a philosophers perspective....that effectively all human actions are determined by external conditions. Unfortunately science ignores that we are spiritual beings. We have a 6th sense. ..some more developed than others but it's there. So science only takes consideration of one aspect and therefore can be flawed in its final conclusions.

Purists would define free will as the ability to make choices (that's an internal thing science seems to negate) without any prior prejudice. ( seemingly imposible)

Religion varies greatly in their definitions but ultimately agree that it's the influences of the human soul. This is what some say sets man apart from the rest of the animal Kingdom. ...

The can opener is placed beside the tin...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Now be Honest did you really post that of your own free will ?

As far as I'm aware, no."

You seem uncertain

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Now be Honest did you really post that of your own free will ?

As far as I'm aware, no.

You seem uncertain

Yes, because there may be information I don't know about that proves me wrong.

A scientific theory or fact can't be officially recognized unless it's falsifiable

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Its called common sense, something educated fools have long lost........"

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

To believe in free will is to believe that our decisions are made of their own accord.

That's is the flaw you're starting from.

Purists would define free will as the ability to make choices (that's an internal thing science seems to negate) without any prior prejudice. ( seemingly imposible)

Religion varies greatly in their definitions but ultimately agree that it's the influences of the human soul. This is what some say sets man apart from the rest of the animal Kingdom. ...

The can opener is placed beside the tin...

We have a hell of a lot more than 6 senses.

Also the belief that we are spiritual beings is just a belief. We could equally be purely physical.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Its called common sense, something educated fools have long lost........"

Also it's those 'educated fools' that make the computer or phone you're using and the internet and everything else some people take for granted.

I hate the notion that some people don't like intelligence. Yes it can be used for bad things but for fuck sake...Do you really want the entire human race to thick as shit? I don't.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To believe in free will is to believe that our decisions are made of their own accord.

That's is the flaw you're starting from.

Purists would define free will as the ability to make choices (that's an internal thing science seems to negate) without any prior prejudice. ( seemingly imposible)

Religion varies greatly in their definitions but ultimately agree that it's the influences of the human soul. This is what some say sets man apart from the rest of the animal Kingdom. ...

The can opener is placed beside the tin...

We have a hell of a lot more than 6 senses.

Also the belief that we are spiritual beings is just a belief. We could equally be purely physical.

In 2000 yrs time this will be reposted by those who cannot simply accept things are there that we may not understand and or may never understand. ..yet it doesn't make them any less real. We will never understand everything so in ur argument your very existence may be a figment of imagination, both yours and others. The thing that is consistent in all of this is it all changes....even some basic scientific rules which have been assumed a right have now been brought into question....by science itself.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Look at those contributing....I think I've found a way of getting mens views in a forum without it being hijacked by the female majority.... could disguise the real content after the 10th posting ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We have a hell of a lot more than 6 senses.

Name them.

Oh and for the ealier point science ignores nothing (not rhat its some being in it's own right) if somone belives they are a spiritual being then they are perfectly capable of testing thier own assumption.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Now be Honest did you really post that of your own free will ?

As far as I'm aware, no.

You seem uncertain

Yes, because there may be information I don't know about that proves me wrong.

A scientific theory or fact can't be officially recognized unless it's falsifiable "

Not strictly true there is no "offical" recognition of anything.

But kudos have you been reading Popper?

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By *ynecplCouple over a year ago

Newcastle upon Tyne

Why has he Will been arrested what is he being accused of

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 03/01/16 17:46:15]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Haven't read all the comments, but it's one of the oldest dilemmas.

do we have free will, or is it all pretty much determined.

Well the law thinks we have free will, but it's quite interesting to look at scenarios where we're not considered liable for our actions.

Or put another way, some of us are more responsible for what we do, than others.

Eg, commit same crime and it's a certainty a female will get less of a jail sentence.

Sometimes it's cos she's a mum, can see the sense here. But not always.

Plenty other examples out there.

I'm not sure how extenuating or mitigating circumstances in sentencing contributes to the debate on free will?

Yeah it's a bit oblique for this time of day.

My point is free will means you can be held responsible for actions committed, not done under duress.

But clearly , when similar actions are committed under similar circumstances - the responsibility should be equal ?

Ergo sentences should be similar no?

But the sentences are rarely similar , which suggests a belief that genders don't carry same responsibility.

Or is it another factor? Possibly

They weigh up all circumstances.

Same for motor offences. If you would lose your job over losing your license then they might not take your license.

Oh you should read the offical usa stabdpoint on this

"Men are criminals because they are of a criminal nature, women are criminals because of circumstance, desperation, abusive partners or parents."

But not because they are of a criminal nature

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By *mokes n MirrorsCouple over a year ago

Plymouth and Newcastle (sometimes)

If we didn't have free will how could we choose who to meet from the offers we get from the people who choose us over any other couple on Fab. We spend our lives making choices and be they good or bad they are all down to us as individuals.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If we didn't have free will how could we choose who to meet from the offers we get from the people who choose us over any other couple on Fab. We spend our lives making choices and be they good or bad they are all down to us as individuals."

Does a clock choose to tick?

What makes your mechanism any different to the clocks.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Its called common sense, something educated fools have long lost........

Also it's those 'educated fools' that make the computer or phone you're using and the internet and everything else some people take for granted.

I hate the notion that some people don't like intelligence. Yes it can be used for bad things but for fuck sake...Do you really want the entire human race to thick as shit? I don't."

You err greatly concerning my Statement...Educated fools.........

You see if you get educated fools common sense dictates there must be Educated wise men also....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Does a clock choose to tick?

Tick tock tick tock....oh I mean tic toc tic toc...nope that was not choice.

What makes your mechanism any different to the clocks."

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By *mokes n MirrorsCouple over a year ago

Plymouth and Newcastle (sometimes)

Does a clock choose to tick?

What makes your mechanism any different to the clocks."

Not all clocks tick. My mechanism is a sentient being not a mechanical or electronic object.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Does a clock choose to tick?

What makes your mechanism any different to the clocks.

Not all clocks tick. My mechanism is a sentient being not a mechanical or electronic object."

No your mechanism is a an electrochemical machine.

Full of ion channels, proton pumps, and ball joints.

What part of you is non physical?

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By *ipswingCouple over a year ago

portrush

are we not men ... we are devo ..D E V O ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" are we not men ... we are devo ..D E V O ..."
isnt that the chav on some obscure satellite channel you only ever find when completely smashed?

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By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

So if we control our minds and bodies by free will how come we get sick.....?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So if we control our minds and bodies by free will how come we get sick.....?"

Thats a bit of a fallacy.

Its like saying "so if we build a house from blue prints why does a tree fall through the side of it in a storm".

Your free will lr lack there off would not make yoh imune from external forces.

Just like if you put grit into your engine oil it aint gonna stay healthy for long.

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By *ipswingCouple over a year ago

portrush

" are we not men ... we are devo ..D E V O ...isnt that the chav on some obscure satellite channel you only ever find when completely smashed?"

nope ..they a band ...

and very good at that ..even auld neil young played with them..

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

[Removed by poster at 03/01/16 18:46:25]

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By *mokes n MirrorsCouple over a year ago

Plymouth and Newcastle (sometimes)

Does a clock choose to tick?

What makes your mechanism any different to the clocks.

Not all clocks tick. My mechanism is a sentient being not a mechanical or electronic object.

No your mechanism is a an electrochemical machine.

Full of ion channels, proton pumps, and ball joints.

What part of you is non physical?

My thoughts,my dreams, my compassion and my ability to think for myself. I'm sure that if my physical self committed a crime my plea of having no free will would not be accepted by the courts...We choose our own paths in life.

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"Basically people who believe in free will don't fully understand connections or see connections in the same way that people who don't believe in it do. "

I'm not sure if I believe in or not, but I do see connections.

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By *adystephanieTV/TS over a year ago

glos

"So if we control our minds and bodies by free will how come we get sick.....?

Thats a bit of a fallacy.

Its like saying "so if we build a house from blue prints why does a tree fall through the side of it in a storm".

Your free will lr lack there off would not make yoh imune from external forces.

Just like if you put grit into your engine oil it aint gonna stay healthy for long.

Great answer ....thank you

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

It's just a discussion, no need to insult people.

Oh and, Grammar; the difference between know your your shit and knowing you're shit

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Haven't read all the comments, but it's one of the oldest dilemmas.

do we have free will, or is it all pretty much determined.

Well the law thinks we have free will, but it's quite interesting to look at scenarios where we're not considered liable for our actions.

Or put another way, some of us are more responsible for what we do, than others.

Eg, commit same crime and it's a certainty a female will get less of a jail sentence.

Sometimes it's cos she's a mum, can see the sense here. But not always.

Plenty other examples out there.

I'm not sure how extenuating or mitigating circumstances in sentencing contributes to the debate on free will?

Yeah it's a bit oblique for this time of day.

My point is free will means you can be held responsible for actions committed, not done under duress.

But clearly , when similar actions are committed under similar circumstances - the responsibility should be equal ?

Ergo sentences should be similar no?

But the sentences are rarely similar , which suggests a belief that genders don't carry same responsibility.

Or is it another factor? Possibly

They weigh up all circumstances.

Same for motor offences. If you would lose your job over losing your license then they might not take your license.

Oh you should read the offical usa stabdpoint on this

"Men are criminals because they are of a criminal nature, women are criminals because of circumstance, desperation, abusive partners or parents."

But not because they are of a criminal nature"

We aren't the USA yet though.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Does a clock choose to tick?

What makes your mechanism any different to the clocks.

Not all clocks tick. My mechanism is a sentient being not a mechanical or electronic object.

No your mechanism is a an electrochemical machine.

Full of ion channels, proton pumps, and ball joints.

What part of you is non physical?

But all those things are just the result of the physical things that occur inside you.

For instance if i put a probe into your skull and send an electrical current into specific parts of your brain, i can remove your ability to speak, to count, to remember your childhood.

If i remove the frontal lobes i can leave you a zombie functioning but devoid of personality.

If i smash a railway spike into that same region i can turn you from a devout christian family man into an impulsive, violent gambler without compassion.

If i give you mdma i can make you feel happier than you ever would normally.

There is so many examples of how everything about us from our memories to the very way we think can be altered by changing the physical structure of out brain.

Ph and one last thing.

Where does choice end and biology begin?

Gender?

Straight or gay?

Whats choice and whats nature

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Haven't read all the comments, but it's one of the oldest dilemmas.

do we have free will, or is it all pretty much determined.

Well the law thinks we have free will, but it's quite interesting to look at scenarios where we're not considered liable for our actions.

Or put another way, some of us are more responsible for what we do, than others.

Eg, commit same crime and it's a certainty a female will get less of a jail sentence.

Sometimes it's cos she's a mum, can see the sense here. But not always.

Plenty other examples out there.

I'm not sure how extenuating or mitigating circumstances in sentencing contributes to the debate on free will?

Yeah it's a bit oblique for this time of day.

My point is free will means you can be held responsible for actions committed, not done under duress.

But clearly , when similar actions are committed under similar circumstances - the responsibility should be equal ?

Ergo sentences should be similar no?

But the sentences are rarely similar , which suggests a belief that genders don't carry same responsibility.

Or is it another factor? Possibly

They weigh up all circumstances.

Same for motor offences. If you would lose your job over losing your license then they might not take your license.

Oh you should read the offical usa stabdpoint on this

"Men are criminals because they are of a criminal nature, women are criminals because of circumstance, desperation, abusive partners or parents."

But not because they are of a criminal nature

We aren't the USA yet though."

True but the uk justice minister said 50% of women in prison should not be in jail.

"Many women in British prisons should not be incarcerated at all, according to Justice Minister Simon Hughes. He suggests the number of women imprisoned in Britain should be reduced by 50 percent.

Speaking on BBC Radio 5, Hughes said many female offenders are a“special case” because they have been victims of crimes themselves. He claims the women require different treatment from many male offenders.

The fact that many women have more care responsibilities than men should also be considered, said Hughes"

Women have a 50% reconviction rate 12 months after being released.

So they've put together a group to find alternatives to jail for women...

Cause you know women are children who cant be held accountable for thier actions.

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By *mokes n MirrorsCouple over a year ago

Plymouth and Newcastle (sometimes)

Does a clock choose to tick?

What makes your mechanism any different to the clocks.

Not all clocks tick. My mechanism is a sentient being not a mechanical or electronic object.

No your mechanism is a an electrochemical machine.

Full of ion channels, proton pumps, and ball joints.

What part of you is non physical?

But all those things are just the result of the physical things that occur inside you.

For instance if i put a probe into your skull and send an electrical current into specific parts of your brain, i can remove your ability to speak, to count, to remember your childhood.

If i remove the frontal lobes i can leave you a zombie functioning but devoid of personality.

If i smash a railway spike into that same region i can turn you from a devout christian family man into an impulsive, violent gambler without compassion.

If i give you mdma i can make you feel happier than you ever would normally.

There is so many examples of how everything about us from our memories to the very way we think can be altered by changing the physical structure of out brain.

Ph and one last thing.

Where does choice end and biology begin?

Gender?

Straight or gay?

Whats choice and whats nature

But you've changed the nature of the brain therefore you're changing the nature of your argument. We all have a free choice...We're not born racist,homophobic or intolerant (look at nursery children playing) but made that way by the parents who choose to nurture those traits in their children...Occasionally those same children mature, realise their parents are full of shit and choose a different path...Their free will in operation.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Does a clock choose to tick?

What makes your mechanism any different to the clocks.

Not all clocks tick. My mechanism is a sentient being not a mechanical or electronic object.

No your mechanism is a an electrochemical machine.

Full of ion channels, proton pumps, and ball joints.

What part of you is non physical?

But all those things are just the result of the physical things that occur inside you.

For instance if i put a probe into your skull and send an electrical current into specific parts of your brain, i can remove your ability to speak, to count, to remember your childhood.

If i remove the frontal lobes i can leave you a zombie functioning but devoid of personality.

If i smash a railway spike into that same region i can turn you from a devout christian family man into an impulsive, violent gambler without compassion.

If i give you mdma i can make you feel happier than you ever would normally.

There is so many examples of how everything about us from our memories to the very way we think can be altered by changing the physical structure of out brain.

Ph and one last thing.

Where does choice end and biology begin?

Gender?

Straight or gay?

Whats choice and whats nature

Ive not changed my argument. My argument is we are the result of the mechanics of our brains.

Your argument is that we are more than that.

Look at children playing?

Children are cruel bastards and bully each other.

Humans are inherently xenophobic assholes who kill and rob from each other on a mass scale

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"I love these arms chair dr's - no PHD and copy paste a few random articles. A small amount of knowledge is dangerous

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today!

Dispute the proposition then

I have no expertise in this field thus I won't join the argument - I am nearly commenting on the airchair academics who think they are qualified to discuss this point

Face it your not so it just makes you look stupid and ignorant

oh the irony..

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By *mokes n MirrorsCouple over a year ago

Plymouth and Newcastle (sometimes)

Does a clock choose to tick?

What makes your mechanism any different to the clocks.

Not all clocks tick. My mechanism is a sentient being not a mechanical or electronic object.

No your mechanism is a an electrochemical machine.

Full of ion channels, proton pumps, and ball joints.

What part of you is non physical?

But all those things are just the result of the physical things that occur inside you.

For instance if i put a probe into your skull and send an electrical current into specific parts of your brain, i can remove your ability to speak, to count, to remember your childhood.

If i remove the frontal lobes i can leave you a zombie functioning but devoid of personality.

If i smash a railway spike into that same region i can turn you from a devout christian family man into an impulsive, violent gambler without compassion.

If i give you mdma i can make you feel happier than you ever would normally.

There is so many examples of how everything about us from our memories to the very way we think can be altered by changing the physical structure of out brain.

Ph and one last thing.

Where does choice end and biology begin?

Gender?

Straight or gay?

Whats choice and whats nature

Ive not changed my argument. My argument is we are the result of the mechanics of our brains.

Your argument is that we are more than that.

Look at children playing?

Children are cruel bastards and bully each other.

Humans are inherently xenophobic assholes who kill and rob from each other on a mass scale"

Of course we are more than a machine or we would all act and think the same way as everyone else...The very reasoning behind your stance shows you are using your free will to exercise your right to reply and antagonise or elicit a response (I've read other posts you have a thread in) that you can continue to argue against.

That's true but usually because they have already been steered down that path by feckless parents that don't see that saying no to their kids or instilling a sense of morality and empathy matters. In most cases when the children are educated as to their behaviour (or lack of) they change for the better.

A somewhat jaded view of humanity but feel free to use your free will to live your life as you see fit. Personally I choose to look for the good rather than the bad in people.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We're in the Matrix and bin Laden was trying to get us out

You knew this too

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

Does a clock choose to tick?

What makes your mechanism any different to the clocks.

Not all clocks tick. My mechanism is a sentient being not a mechanical or electronic object.

No your mechanism is a an electrochemical machine.

Full of ion channels, proton pumps, and ball joints.

What part of you is non physical?

But all those things are just the result of the physical things that occur inside you.

For instance if i put a probe into your skull and send an electrical current into specific parts of your brain, i can remove your ability to speak, to count, to remember your childhood.

If i remove the frontal lobes i can leave you a zombie functioning but devoid of personality.

If i smash a railway spike into that same region i can turn you from a devout christian family man into an impulsive, violent gambler without compassion.

If i give you mdma i can make you feel happier than you ever would normally.

There is so many examples of how everything about us from our memories to the very way we think can be altered by changing the physical structure of out brain.

Ph and one last thing.

Where does choice end and biology begin?

Gender?

Straight or gay?

Whats choice and whats nature

Since the majority of the world is homophobic it would suggest we are born that way.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Speaking on BBC Radio 5, Hughes said many female offenders are a“special case” because they have been victims of crimes themselves. He claims the women require different treatment from many male offenders.

The fact that many women have more care responsibilities than men should also be considered, said Hughes"

Women have a 50% reconviction rate 12 months after being released.

So they've put together a group to find alternatives to jail for women...

Cause you know women are children who cant be held accountable for thier actions.

This is what is actual policy.

Projects & Research

Women

Evaluation tender

Recruiter: Prison Reform Trust

Closing Date: 22 January 2016

Evaluation of the UK-wide Transforming lives: Reducing Women’s Imprisonment Programme, October 2015 – September 2018

We are seeking an evaluator to undertake a comprehensive evaluation of the UK-wide Transforming Lives: Reducing Women’s Imprisonment Programme, 2015 – 2018. This evaluation will examine and explore the contribution the Transforming Lives programme has made in addressing the Prison Reform Trust core aim of reducing the number of women in the UK sent to prison and a number of high-level programme outcomes:

- Reducing the imprisonment and remand of particular target groups of women;

- Improving the governance of women’s justice across the UK;

- Improving pathways into mental health and social care and support for vulnerable women in the criminal justice system;

- Improving compliance with the UN Bangkok Rules’ emphasis on non-custodial alternatives for women with dependent children and ensuring the welfare of children is properly considered

We favour an iterative, action research approach to this evaluation that will make a real-time contribution to the substantive outcomes of the programme as well as providing lessons for the future.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

The idea that we are mechanical does not mean that we would all be the same because we all have different bodies and experiences. We would only be the same if we all had the exact same body and exact same experiences.

My laptop is a machine and my washing machine is a machine but just because they are both machines they are not the same.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

There are still some people saying 'we have free will because we make choices'.

Ok that doesn't explain anything.

Where do those choices come from?

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