FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Ethical Shopping
Ethical Shopping
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Going on from a previous thread where Amazon was mentioned.
Do you take care to buy from a non sweat shop/zero contract employing tax dodging company?
Or do you buy without any thought into that side of things? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I refuse to buy from anywhere where child labour is used. I also want to change my pension to another company as mine is a major shareholder in BAE but it's proving to be really difficult.
I have a LOT of guilt over where my money goes. Usually means I end up spending more than planned. |
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If you dig deep enough, you will find that almost no retailers or manufacturers can support an " ethical" claim.
And other initiatives have actually not worked;
A case in point is the so- called " fair trade" coffee; which is in reality anything but fair trade, having made many unscrupulous people very rich, and driven thousands of small coffee producers out of production and into greater poverty. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"If you dig deep enough, you will find that almost no retailers or manufacturers can support an " ethical" claim.
And other initiatives have actually not worked;
A case in point is the so- called " fair trade" coffee; which is in reality anything but fair trade, having made many unscrupulous people very rich, and driven thousands of small coffee producers out of production and into greater poverty."
The same for British produce you go to certain parts of the country and you see gang masters driving out bus loads into the countryside.
It's a minefield  |
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"Going on from a previous thread where Amazon was mentioned.
Do you take care to buy from a non sweat shop/zero contract employing tax dodging company?
Or do you buy without any thought into that side of things? "
Yes, all the effing time and it's very difficult |
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"I buy with my finances in mind only. I can't afford to have a conscience about such things at this present time."
I agree, prices have increased but my wages haven't, so I buy where and what is affordable... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Going on from a previous thread where Amazon was mentioned.
Do you take care to buy from a non sweat shop/zero contract employing tax dodging company?
Or do you buy without any thought into that side of things?
Yes, all the effing time and it's very difficult "
I agree  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce "
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though. |
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This is something I'd like to do more where finances allow. If I'm going for coffee with someone, I always take them to my favourite place in town which is not for profit. Any profit goes to local charities. Plus it's much more relaxed in there than any of the big chains! |
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By *olgateMan
over a year ago
on the road to nowhere in particular |
"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though. "
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce "
Ah will stick with dominoes |
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"I avoid tax dodgers such as
Amazon
Starbucks
Uber
I try and avoid companies that pay below minimum wage such as
Monsoon
Uber
Subway"
Oh... I get loads of stuff from Amazon. Have to save money where I can x |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?"
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's very difficult to buy ethically, or know the story behind every company.
I avoid some of the obvious ones - Amazon, Starbucks, Nestle - but find it easier to give custom to those who positively give back. I generally shop at Sainsbury's, for example, despite cheaper and nearer options due to the excellent work of The Sainsbury's Centre for Mental Health and their active funding for Visual Arts. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I buy from places that are cheap, can't afford otherwise generally. I do love Amazon as it's so easy and means i don't have to trail around shops (a physically painful experience for me).
I shop at Tesco cus i like it and the food is fine plus cheap.
I have no idea what nestle have done wrong.
I actually agree with zero hours contracts as they work well for many people i know ... i am presuming that is why some places have been named as being avoided.
If i avoid any firms it will be to do with how they treat animals. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I buy from places that are cheap, can't afford otherwise generally. I do love Amazon as it's so easy and means i don't have to trail around shops (a physically painful experience for me).
I shop at Tesco cus i like it and the food is fine plus cheap.
I have no idea what nestle have done wrong.
I actually agree with zero hours contracts as they work well for many people i know ... i am presuming that is why some places have been named as being avoided.
If i avoid any firms it will be to do with how they treat animals."
There's nothing inherently wrong with zero hours contracts, just that some employers abuse them. But that principle applies to most things, MPs were going around abusing expenses for while, doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with expenses! |
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By *olgateMan
over a year ago
on the road to nowhere in particular |
"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals."
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?"
Okay...  |
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I'm somewhat mindful of where I'm sourcing stuff from. I ignore Amazon now as a source of anything but information.
Make more of our own things, including growing food, is better. Buy British, if it's well sourced.
No more unethical dildos. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I buy from places that are cheap, can't afford otherwise generally. I do love Amazon as it's so easy and means i don't have to trail around shops (a physically painful experience for me).
I shop at Tesco cus i like it and the food is fine plus cheap.
I have no idea what nestle have done wrong.
I actually agree with zero hours contracts as they work well for many people i know ... i am presuming that is why some places have been named as being avoided.
If i avoid any firms it will be to do with how they treat animals."
One thing Nestlé did was offer free milk to new mothers in poverty stricken areas. They offered just enough for the mothers to stop lactating naturally, and then began charging higher prices for the milk. On top of this, the milk powder had to be mixed with water and in lower economically developed countries, the water is polluted. Nestlé didn't bother including in the word of mouth marketing that the water needs to be sterile, only including it in text (which couldn't be read by most).
Just look for the Nestlé milk scandal. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I buy from places that are cheap, can't afford otherwise generally. I do love Amazon as it's so easy and means i don't have to trail around shops (a physically painful experience for me).
I shop at Tesco cus i like it and the food is fine plus cheap.
I have no idea what nestle have done wrong.
I actually agree with zero hours contracts as they work well for many people i know ... i am presuming that is why some places have been named as being avoided.
If i avoid any firms it will be to do with how they treat animals.
There's nothing inherently wrong with zero hours contracts, just that some employers abuse them. But that principle applies to most things, MPs were going around abusing expenses for while, doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with expenses!"
I know ! Lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical "
But it's industrious and makes sense. Papa John's pays minimum wage, just like a whole bunch of other companies. I think the US arm has more issues than the UK. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical "
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I buy from places that are cheap, can't afford otherwise generally. I do love Amazon as it's so easy and means i don't have to trail around shops (a physically painful experience for me).
I shop at Tesco cus i like it and the food is fine plus cheap.
I have no idea what nestle have done wrong.
I actually agree with zero hours contracts as they work well for many people i know ... i am presuming that is why some places have been named as being avoided.
If i avoid any firms it will be to do with how they treat animals.
There's nothing inherently wrong with zero hours contracts, just that some employers abuse them. But that principle applies to most things, MPs were going around abusing expenses for while, doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with expenses!
I know ! Lol"
I know you know, I'm backing up what you said / agreeing with you! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We have one of the highest minimum wages because we have one of the highest costs of living.
Benefits aren't there to subsidise the poor, they subsidize rich business people and landlords.
The same voices who come out against raising living wages are the ones who were vocal against the minimum wage in the first place -with the same cataclysmic predictions, none of which came to pass. |
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By *ty31Man
over a year ago
NW London |
"
I actually agree with zero hours contracts as they work well for many people i know ... i am presuming that is why some places have been named as being avoided.
There's nothing inherently wrong with zero hours contracts, just that some employers abuse them. But that principle applies to most things, MPs were going around abusing expenses for while, doesn't mean there's anything inherently wrong with expenses!
I know ! Lol
I know you know, I'm backing up what you said / agreeing with you! "
The problem with zero hour contracts is that too many firms use them in a way which disadvantages their workforce. Companies such as sports direct could easily afford to offer guaranteed minimum hours which would allow employees to make financial Planning. Also too many wealthy firms don't employ directly (they use in house agencies) so as to avoid Paying out for holiday pay, sick Pay And redundancy etc. For me this is unethical especially as often positions are minimum wage. |
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By *olgateMan
over a year ago
on the road to nowhere in particular |
"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral."
I haven't mentioned anything about morals. The CEO of Papa Johns made a statement recently rubbishing the idea of raising the minimum wage to a level where a sustainable living could be attained is a socialist plot and would be detrimental to both company profits and the quality of their pizzas.
In future I shall endeavour to by my pizzas from companies that do not expect to pay wages so low that their staff can only survive by receiving state handouts.
C... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There are also many work places (such as mine) that would end up closing for ever if they werent allowed to use zero hour contracts, we couldnt function without them.
The people who have them have chosen to have them, it works well for them and us.
Plus they earn lots more an hour than us ordinary workers earn ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral. I haven't mentioned anything about morals. The CEO of Papa Johns made a statement recently rubbishing the idea of raising the minimum wage to a level where a sustainable living could be attained is a socialist plot and would be detrimental to both company profits and the quality of their pizzas.
In future I shall endeavour to by my pizzas from companies that do not expect to pay wages so low that their staff can only survive by receiving state handouts.
C..."
Maybe your energy would be better directed at the people that actually set tax policies and minimum wages. Do domino's pay their staff better or they just didn't say something you don't like? |
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By *olgateMan
over a year ago
on the road to nowhere in particular |
"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral. I haven't mentioned anything about morals. The CEO of Papa Johns made a statement recently rubbishing the idea of raising the minimum wage to a level where a sustainable living could be attained is a socialist plot and would be detrimental to both company profits and the quality of their pizzas.
In future I shall endeavour to by my pizzas from companies that do not expect to pay wages so low that their staff can only survive by receiving state handouts.
C...
Maybe your energy would be better directed at the people that actually set tax policies and minimum wages. Do domino's pay their staff better or they just didn't say something you don't like? "
why should I direct my energies anywhere? It's not as if I am compelled to eat papa johns pizza. There are lots of local family run restaurants I can use if I decide I want a take away. If I choose to not spend my (hard earned) money with a multi national company with a business plan that in effect relies on indirect state handouts to operate, that is my prerogative. It's not as if it is an ailing British manufacturer in a community that is the only source of employment in the area. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's not always practical but when it is I try to avoid companies like sports direct and papa johns
C...
What's Papa Johns do that's unethical?
"
So at this point i've concluded that they don't 'do' anything different to any other pizza outlet. But they did say something that upsets certain people. |
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By *olgateMan
over a year ago
on the road to nowhere in particular |
"It's not always practical but when it is I try to avoid companies like sports direct and papa johns
C...
What's Papa Johns do that's unethical?
So at this point i've concluded that they don't 'do' anything different to any other pizza outlet. But they did say something that upsets certain people. "
i suggest you look up the egotistical rants of their CEO to see what the difference is. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yeah, I try and buy ethically where I can. I try and buy almost all my books second hand for instance - and I call the local bookshop to see if they have a copy of something before going online and ordering a copy to be delivered. I tend to treat myself though when it's a small, niche publisher who I'd like to support.
We buy lots of our food from local shops. Both the farm shops/markets and the local Polish and Chinese supermarkets. We want these places to stay in our town, so we support them when we can.
I've started to make all my clothes too. It had become too hard to buy ethically sourced clothes at the kind of money I could afford in the styles I wanted. So I put my ability to sew to good use and this year my goal is to buy no new clothes from the high street (underwear, socks, and sports gear is the exception). The occasional geek t-shirt is a treat, but to be honest I really have too many.
Coffee shops? Always hard. I prefer Costa - not only because the coffee is the best, but because they've launched an environmental and labour best practices campaign.
I buy alot from Amazon. Much of the stuff I want to buy simply can't be got from anywhere else without large surcharges. I used to work in warehouses. The work is tough. I don't doubt that Amazon are 'overworking' their staff, because most warehouses overwork their staff.
I like to buy British where I can. And where I can't buy British (like for example my camera gear) I like to buy from a high street shop - even if the internet is cheaper. Especially when it comes to technology. I like to support the infrastructure (like camera shops) that will only survive if we buy from British shops rather than grey imports from eBay. As a pro I understand that I need the brands to operate strongly in this country, and if I buy from China, for instance, the British arm of the company don't get to report that sale and they don't get that money for their own marketing and advertising, and for their repair hubs.
We might live in a global world, but we have to realise that some services we really need to keep local. And those services will only stay local if we support them. Which means not voting with our wallet, and occasionally taking a financial hit for the future.
I read something a while back that said when we need things to change for the better for the poor (such as with Hugh's War On Waste), it's the middle classes that need to make the first move. As a middle class person I can afford to spend a few extra quid here and there to support causes I believe are important. And if enough of us do that, then the benefits will hopefully be passed on to those in society who can't afford a few extra quid. |
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By *olgateMan
over a year ago
on the road to nowhere in particular |
"Yeah, I try and buy ethically where I can. I try and buy almost all my books second hand for instance - and I call the local bookshop to see if they have a copy of something before going online and ordering a copy to be delivered. I tend to treat myself though when it's a small, niche publisher who I'd like to support.
We buy lots of our food from local shops. Both the farm shops/markets and the local Polish and Chinese supermarkets. We want these places to stay in our town, so we support them when we can.
I've started to make all my clothes too. It had become too hard to buy ethically sourced clothes at the kind of money I could afford in the styles I wanted. So I put my ability to sew to good use and this year my goal is to buy no new clothes from the high street (underwear, socks, and sports gear is the exception). The occasional geek t-shirt is a treat, but to be honest I really have too many.
Coffee shops? Always hard. I prefer Costa - not only because the coffee is the best, but because they've launched an environmental and labour best practices campaign.
I buy alot from Amazon. Much of the stuff I want to buy simply can't be got from anywhere else without large surcharges. I used to work in warehouses. The work is tough. I don't doubt that Amazon are 'overworking' their staff, because most warehouses overwork their staff.
I like to buy British where I can. And where I can't buy British (like for example my camera gear) I like to buy from a high street shop - even if the internet is cheaper. Especially when it comes to technology. I like to support the infrastructure (like camera shops) that will only survive if we buy from British shops rather than grey imports from eBay. As a pro I understand that I need the brands to operate strongly in this country, and if I buy from China, for instance, the British arm of the company don't get to report that sale and they don't get that money for their own marketing and advertising, and for their repair hubs.
We might live in a global world, but we have to realise that some services we really need to keep local. And those services will only stay local if we support them. Which means not voting with our wallet, and occasionally taking a financial hit for the future.
I read something a while back that said when we need things to change for the better for the poor (such as with Hugh's War On Waste), it's the middle classes that need to make the first move. As a middle class person I can afford to spend a few extra quid here and there to support causes I believe are important. And if enough of us do that, then the benefits will hopefully be passed on to those in society who can't afford a few extra quid."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I buy with my finances in mind only. I can't afford to have a conscience about such things at this present time."
this is me apart from eggs - have to have free range - does that count  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I refuse to buy from anywhere where child labour is used. I also want to change my pension to another company as mine is a major shareholder in BAE but it's proving to be really difficult.
I have a LOT of guilt over where my money goes. Usually means I end up spending more than planned. "
.
Funnily enough Dave has just forced local councils to stop banning companies like..
Tobacco, arms companies, fracking, asbestos.... Yadda yadda yadda!
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral."
.
Interestingly enough... During the debate in the late 1700s about banning slavery...
Nearly everybody who was pro slavery thought that we" just couldn't afford " to ban it..
It was rarely argued about the moral issue but nearly totally on economics!...
Of course by the early 1800s, it was banned and we never look back and go.... Oh you know that free black slave thing... That was an economic disaster! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I work in the textile industry,when the minimum wage came in,it wrecked the wages for the weavers.I still work in the industry and I was getting paid £2.00 a hour more 20 years ago than what they get now.Minimum wage is a swear word to some of the old weavers. |
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By *olgateMan
over a year ago
on the road to nowhere in particular |
"I work in the textile industry,when the minimum wage came in,it wrecked the wages for the weavers.I still work in the industry and I was getting paid £2.00 a hour more 20 years ago than what they get now.Minimum wage is a swear word to some of the old weavers."
Nothing to do with cheap foreign imports? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think all ethical shopping goes out of the window if people think they can save thirty bob on something.
All this "I don't do sweat shops , child labour , tax avoiders , disable discriminators" takes a back seat if you can gain a 20p on something.
I witness it everyday.
People will use the most unethical companies just to save the equivalent of the price of a cheap cup of tea. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I work in the textile industry,when the minimum wage came in,it wrecked the wages for the weavers.I still work in the industry and I was getting paid £2.00 a hour more 20 years ago than what they get now.Minimum wage is a swear word to some of the old weavers.
Nothing to do with cheap foreign imports?"
NO. ..you could see as soon as it was brought in when jobs got advertised. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I buy with my finances in mind only. I can't afford to have a conscience about such things at this present time.
this is me apart from eggs - have to have free range - does that count "
I had forgotten eggs, i always buy free range eggs. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral..
Interestingly enough... During the debate in the late 1700s about banning slavery...
Nearly everybody who was pro slavery thought that we" just couldn't afford " to ban it..
It was rarely argued about the moral issue but nearly totally on economics!...
Of course by the early 1800s, it was banned and we never look back and go.... Oh you know that free black slave thing... That was an economic disaster!"
What a nonsense comparison! Slaves had notoriously awful productivity as there was absolutely no motivation to do anything more than the minimum to avoid punishment.
I swear some people on this forum think that money grows on trees and all we have to do is plant more trees to raise living standards. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral..
Interestingly enough... During the debate in the late 1700s about banning slavery...
Nearly everybody who was pro slavery thought that we" just couldn't afford " to ban it..
It was rarely argued about the moral issue but nearly totally on economics!...
Of course by the early 1800s, it was banned and we never look back and go.... Oh you know that free black slave thing... That was an economic disaster!
What a nonsense comparison! Slaves had notoriously awful productivity as there was absolutely no motivation to do anything more than the minimum to avoid punishment.
I swear some people on this forum think that money grows on trees and all we have to do is plant more trees to raise living standards. "
.
Ooh I kinda liked it as well, mind you I like looking at interesting historical outlooks of problems and how they actually turned out! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral..
Interestingly enough... During the debate in the late 1700s about banning slavery...
Nearly everybody who was pro slavery thought that we" just couldn't afford " to ban it..
It was rarely argued about the moral issue but nearly totally on economics!...
Of course by the early 1800s, it was banned and we never look back and go.... Oh you know that free black slave thing... That was an economic disaster!
What a nonsense comparison! Slaves had notoriously awful productivity as there was absolutely no motivation to do anything more than the minimum to avoid punishment.
I swear some people on this forum think that money grows on trees and all we have to do is plant more trees to raise living standards. .
Ooh I kinda liked it as well, mind you I like looking at interesting historical outlooks of problems and how they actually turned out!"
Then take a look at the 70's see what happens when wages go up and productivity doesn't. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral..
Interestingly enough... During the debate in the late 1700s about banning slavery...
Nearly everybody who was pro slavery thought that we" just couldn't afford " to ban it..
It was rarely argued about the moral issue but nearly totally on economics!...
Of course by the early 1800s, it was banned and we never look back and go.... Oh you know that free black slave thing... That was an economic disaster!
What a nonsense comparison! Slaves had notoriously awful productivity as there was absolutely no motivation to do anything more than the minimum to avoid punishment.
I swear some people on this forum think that money grows on trees and all we have to do is plant more trees to raise living standards. .
Ooh I kinda liked it as well, mind you I like looking at interesting historical outlooks of problems and how they actually turned out!
Then take a look at the 70's see what happens when wages go up and productivity doesn't. "
.
Yeah but that's not one issue!
Consumerism dropped massively in the 70s as well!... I mean even if there'd increased productivity, there'd have been less market anyhow and then there was huge spikes in energy costs, a devaluation of currency and lots of other factors!.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a massive believer in productivity gains!
In reality it's the only true wealth creator!, it's just that I personally think you get the best innovation and productivity through obstacles like high wages and even energy price instability |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral..
Interestingly enough... During the debate in the late 1700s about banning slavery...
Nearly everybody who was pro slavery thought that we" just couldn't afford " to ban it..
It was rarely argued about the moral issue but nearly totally on economics!...
Of course by the early 1800s, it was banned and we never look back and go.... Oh you know that free black slave thing... That was an economic disaster!
What a nonsense comparison! Slaves had notoriously awful productivity as there was absolutely no motivation to do anything more than the minimum to avoid punishment.
I swear some people on this forum think that money grows on trees and all we have to do is plant more trees to raise living standards. .
Ooh I kinda liked it as well, mind you I like looking at interesting historical outlooks of problems and how they actually turned out!
Then take a look at the 70's see what happens when wages go up and productivity doesn't. .
Yeah but that's not one issue!
Consumerism dropped massively in the 70s as well!... I mean even if there'd increased productivity, there'd have been less market anyhow and then there was huge spikes in energy costs, a devaluation of currency and lots of other factors!.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a massive believer in productivity gains!
In reality it's the only true wealth creator!, it's just that I personally think you get the best innovation and productivity through obstacles like high wages and even energy price instability"
Well yeah I agree with that, the problem is that a lot of minimum wage jobs don't have a whole lot of scope for innovation, unless you mean technology replacing them (self-scan checkouts) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral..
Interestingly enough... During the debate in the late 1700s about banning slavery...
Nearly everybody who was pro slavery thought that we" just couldn't afford " to ban it..
It was rarely argued about the moral issue but nearly totally on economics!...
Of course by the early 1800s, it was banned and we never look back and go.... Oh you know that free black slave thing... That was an economic disaster!
What a nonsense comparison! Slaves had notoriously awful productivity as there was absolutely no motivation to do anything more than the minimum to avoid punishment.
I swear some people on this forum think that money grows on trees and all we have to do is plant more trees to raise living standards. .
Ooh I kinda liked it as well, mind you I like looking at interesting historical outlooks of problems and how they actually turned out!
Then take a look at the 70's see what happens when wages go up and productivity doesn't. .
Yeah but that's not one issue!
Consumerism dropped massively in the 70s as well!... I mean even if there'd increased productivity, there'd have been less market anyhow and then there was huge spikes in energy costs, a devaluation of currency and lots of other factors!.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a massive believer in productivity gains!
In reality it's the only true wealth creator!, it's just that I personally think you get the best innovation and productivity through obstacles like high wages and even energy price instability
Well yeah I agree with that, the problem is that a lot of minimum wage jobs don't have a whole lot of scope for innovation, unless you mean technology replacing them (self-scan checkouts) "
.
The real problem of productivity?
No jobs through technology and too many products!
What do we do with the ones that we've got nothing left for them to do  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's not always practical but when it is I try to avoid companies like sports direct and papa johns
C..."
I avoid Sports Direct for very different reasons |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The guy that runs papa johns spoke out against increasing the minimum wage, basically he wants taxpayers to subsidise his workforce
Papa Johns in the UK are mostly franchises though.
Then get another franchise!
A lot of fast food chains are franchises.
I refuse to give my patronage to a franchise where the licensor is ethically unsound. Happy now?
Having a different opinion to you is not the definition of "ethically unsound". That was simply a question of economics, not morals.
It is his opinion that the state should subsidise and top up the income of his vast multi national corporation rather than pay his staff a living wage and benefits.
That is wholly unethical
No because you've attempted to over simplify a complex issue into a sentence.
We already have the 8th highest minimum wage in the world and there's a lot of evidence showing that raising it further has unintended consequences such as increasing youth unemployment and reducing disabled participation in the workforce.
There's nothing moral about keeping wages high by keeping others unemployed. Not everyone who disagrees with you is immoral..
Interestingly enough... During the debate in the late 1700s about banning slavery...
Nearly everybody who was pro slavery thought that we" just couldn't afford " to ban it..
It was rarely argued about the moral issue but nearly totally on economics!...
Of course by the early 1800s, it was banned and we never look back and go.... Oh you know that free black slave thing... That was an economic disaster!
What a nonsense comparison! Slaves had notoriously awful productivity as there was absolutely no motivation to do anything more than the minimum to avoid punishment.
I swear some people on this forum think that money grows on trees and all we have to do is plant more trees to raise living standards. .
Ooh I kinda liked it as well, mind you I like looking at interesting historical outlooks of problems and how they actually turned out!
Then take a look at the 70's see what happens when wages go up and productivity doesn't. .
Yeah but that's not one issue!
Consumerism dropped massively in the 70s as well!... I mean even if there'd increased productivity, there'd have been less market anyhow and then there was huge spikes in energy costs, a devaluation of currency and lots of other factors!.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a massive believer in productivity gains!
In reality it's the only true wealth creator!, it's just that I personally think you get the best innovation and productivity through obstacles like high wages and even energy price instability
Well yeah I agree with that, the problem is that a lot of minimum wage jobs don't have a whole lot of scope for innovation, unless you mean technology replacing them (self-scan checkouts) .
The real problem of productivity?
No jobs through technology and too many products!
What do we do with the ones that we've got nothing left for them to do "
Keep pub toilets clean? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"All these people who know how to save the economy, they're wasted on Fabs. They should go into government and become advisors!"
People who understand economics are wasted on the government! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Going on from a previous thread where Amazon was mentioned.
Do you take care to buy from a non sweat shop/zero contract employing tax dodging company?
Or do you buy without any thought into that side of things? "
I buy things with little thought I'm afraid. My idea of ethical shopping is not punching someone in ASDA. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"All these people who know how to save the economy, they're wasted on Fabs. They should go into government and become advisors!"
.
That's just a stepping stone!
The ultimate goal... Running the canaries |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
What do we do with the ones that we've got nothing left for them to do
Keep pub toilets clean?"
Or state support with benefits sufficiently short of minimum wage....?
I wonder, did the minimum wage destroy many jobs and did many become cash in hand as a result...?
Did the introduction of such a measure meet the greater good test..? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
What do we do with the ones that we've got nothing left for them to do
Keep pub toilets clean?
Or state support with benefits sufficiently short of minimum wage....?
I wonder, did the minimum wage destroy many jobs and did many become cash in hand as a result...?
Did the introduction of such a measure meet the greater good test..?"
Huh? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
What do we do with the ones that we've got nothing left for them to do
Keep pub toilets clean?
Or state support with benefits sufficiently short of minimum wage....?
I wonder, did the minimum wage destroy many jobs and did many become cash in hand as a result...?
Did the introduction of such a measure meet the greater good test..?
Huh?"
The big fear with the minimum wage was that a number of low-jobs would disappear as they wouldn't be cost effective for the employer...?
I simply asked whether this was the case...
Essentially, is there a significant negative impact of having a state imposed minimum wage...? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I usually buy what I can afford and if I'm honest I haven't made the time to look into each individual company to know every story behind each one - when I think about it I feel guilty!
It's a minefield - and ethical shopping is time consuming and expensive!
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
What do we do with the ones that we've got nothing left for them to do
Keep pub toilets clean?
Or state support with benefits sufficiently short of minimum wage....?
I wonder, did the minimum wage destroy many jobs and did many become cash in hand as a result...?
Did the introduction of such a measure meet the greater good test..?
Huh?
The big fear with the minimum wage was that a number of low-jobs would disappear as they wouldn't be cost effective for the employer...?
I simply asked whether this was the case...
Essentially, is there a significant negative impact of having a state imposed minimum wage...?"
But they were talking about robots having replaced all the low wage jobs snd so what to do with the masses of now unemplpyed people |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
What do we do with the ones that we've got nothing left for them to do
Keep pub toilets clean?
Or state support with benefits sufficiently short of minimum wage....?
I wonder, did the minimum wage destroy many jobs and did many become cash in hand as a result...?
Did the introduction of such a measure meet the greater good test..?
Huh?
The big fear with the minimum wage was that a number of low-jobs would disappear as they wouldn't be cost effective for the employer...?
I simply asked whether this was the case...
Essentially, is there a significant negative impact of having a state imposed minimum wage...?"
There is an impact, it benefits some and disadvantages others. It's very hard to measure in isolation and nobody will agree with the interpretation of the results anyway.
Ask yourself if the minimum wage could be £50 an hour with no impact? Obviously not. Then think about what that impact is and realise that you're getting a degree of that by having any minimum wage. Like most thinks, it has more benefits at the start than when it progresses past an optimum point. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
What do we do with the ones that we've got nothing left for them to do
Keep pub toilets clean?
Or state support with benefits sufficiently short of minimum wage....?
I wonder, did the minimum wage destroy many jobs and did many become cash in hand as a result...?
Did the introduction of such a measure meet the greater good test..?
Huh?
The big fear with the minimum wage was that a number of low-jobs would disappear as they wouldn't be cost effective for the employer...?
I simply asked whether this was the case...
Essentially, is there a significant negative impact of having a state imposed minimum wage...?
But they were talking about robots having replaced all the low wage jobs snd so what to do with the masses of now unemplpyed people"
And I facetiously responded with 'state support with benefits sufficiently short of minimum wage'..
And then added my query about whether such masses of unemployed exist due to introduction minimum wage specifically - as opposed to technological developments. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Ask yourself if the minimum wage could be £50 an hour with no impact? Obviously not. Then think about what that impact is and realise that you're getting a degree of that by having any minimum wage. Like most thinks, it has more benefits at the start than when it progresses past an optimum point. "
Then perhaps it's a case of finding the optimum point which I assume can differ and depend on the average cost of production of cheap stuff...hmm
It seems logical to assume that if you raise wages, the cost of production goes up...and if business with to maintain profit margins whether it's to remain competitive or because they're 'greedy', prices are likely to go up.... Somewhat diminishing the impact of increasing wages. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
What do we do with the ones that we've got nothing left for them to do
Keep pub toilets clean?
Or state support with benefits sufficiently short of minimum wage....?
I wonder, did the minimum wage destroy many jobs and did many become cash in hand as a result...?
Did the introduction of such a measure meet the greater good test..?
Huh?
The big fear with the minimum wage was that a number of low-jobs would disappear as they wouldn't be cost effective for the employer...?
I simply asked whether this was the case...
Essentially, is there a significant negative impact of having a state imposed minimum wage...?
There is an impact, it benefits some and disadvantages others. It's very hard to measure in isolation and nobody will agree with the interpretation of the results anyway.
Ask yourself if the minimum wage could be £50 an hour with no impact? Obviously not. Then think about what that impact is and realise that you're getting a degree of that by having any minimum wage. Like most thinks, it has more benefits at the start than when it progresses past an optimum point. "
of course it could. A pound would just be worth much less than it is now.
Just like how if you went back to somone in the 40s and said average wage would be 26k a year theyd think you were insane as that was an incredible amount of money. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Ask yourself if the minimum wage could be £50 an hour with no impact? Obviously not. Then think about what that impact is and realise that you're getting a degree of that by having any minimum wage. Like most thinks, it has more benefits at the start than when it progresses past an optimum point.
Then perhaps it's a case of finding the optimum point which I assume can differ and depend on the average cost of production of cheap stuff...hmm
It seems logical to assume that if you raise wages, the cost of production goes up...and if business with to maintain profit margins whether it's to remain competitive or because they're 'greedy', prices are likely to go up.... Somewhat diminishing the impact of increasing wages."
Exactly, you just get inflation which isn't a real way to improve living standards. When the prices of essential goods go up above inflation it's the poor who come off worse because those goods represent a higher proportion of their expenditure than the rich. Hence why Hitler got elected against a backdrop of hyperinflation. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Inflation is part of the system!
The fact that we've had none for ages is far more worrying to the boe.
If you create every pound with a debt attached to it at its creation, then you will always have inflation regardless of wages costs, they can temporally give you lower price inflation that's not in tune with your currency inflation but sooner or later they have to equal out.
The pound has lost something like 85% of its value since 1940..
That's an 85% tax
Inflation at boe target of 2%
That's a 2% tax....
It's the stealth tax of all stealth tax's.
It's intrinsic to the system, can never be voted out, is completely biased to the wealthy and is debt laden |
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By *osieWoman
over a year ago
Wembley |
"Going on from a previous thread where Amazon was mentioned.
Do you take care to buy from a non sweat shop/zero contract employing tax dodging company?
Or do you buy without any thought into that side of things? "
No, I check all their 'verifications' |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
What do we do with the ones that we've got nothing left for them to do
Keep pub toilets clean?
Or state support with benefits sufficiently short of minimum wage....?
I wonder, did the minimum wage destroy many jobs and did many become cash in hand as a result...?
Did the introduction of such a measure meet the greater good test..?
Huh?
The big fear with the minimum wage was that a number of low-jobs would disappear as they wouldn't be cost effective for the employer...?
I simply asked whether this was the case...
Essentially, is there a significant negative impact of having a state imposed minimum wage...?
There is an impact, it benefits some and disadvantages others. It's very hard to measure in isolation and nobody will agree with the interpretation of the results anyway.
Ask yourself if the minimum wage could be £50 an hour with no impact? Obviously not. Then think about what that impact is and realise that you're getting a degree of that by having any minimum wage. Like most thinks, it has more benefits at the start than when it progresses past an optimum point.
of course it could. A pound would just be worth much less than it is now.
Just like how if you went back to somone in the 40s and said average wage would be 26k a year theyd think you were insane as that was an incredible amount of money."
No I'm pretty sure people in the 40's understood inflation, it was a hot topic in Germany around that time |
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