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Is war a possibility?
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"If it's only the West, more problems will arise. A collective, including the Arab States may rid of us of them. Another group will raise their ugly head. Peace will never be achieved, atrocities may be minimised." But as we've seen from Iraq and Afghanistan - war on these extremists has no end. | |||
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"i think boots on the ground is the only way we can really hurt ISIS but i wouldnt wanna be the person making that call plus its what these scumbags want. this holy war they keep preaching about in regards to acts of terrorism. it wont make a difference. the threat will always be there now" Is there a greater recruiting tool for terrorism in Europe than having boots on the ground? It feels like France/West is in a lose-lose situation. | |||
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" Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? " yes they could do that...... its not like they aren't already doing that now.... they cant invoke article 5 because they don't recognise IS as a "state" ....... | |||
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" Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? " That will please the Pm he can bomb the crap out of Syria then !! | |||
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" Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? yes they could do that...... its not like they aren't already doing that now.... they cant invoke article 5 because they don't recognise IS as a "state" ....... " Really? I didn't realise - thanks for clarifying Fab | |||
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"bomb scare at gatwick now - sheesh" i think the next few days are going to be twitchy for everyone... | |||
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"bomb scare at gatwick now - sheesh i think the next few days are going to be twitchy for everyone..." not good is it  | |||
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"old news. isis have flopped since Russias step up. all over bar the shouting. " The security expert on the news has just said that Russian claims as to what they've done don't match the results. | |||
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"bomb scare at gatwick now - sheesh i think the next few days are going to be twitchy for everyone..." It's put me off my day trip around London with my grandson today. | |||
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"old news. isis have flopped since Russias step up. all over bar the shouting. The security expert on the news has just said that Russian claims as to what they've done don't match the results. " perhaps he missed the death of jihadi john and isis pulling back from kurdistan. you should tell him. | |||
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"old news. isis have flopped since Russias step up. all over bar the shouting. The security expert on the news has just said that Russian claims as to what they've done don't match the results. " it doesn't match up because 90% of the bombs they have dropped haven't been in known IS territory... its be in area's where its the main opposition against assad..... no assad means no russian bases in syria..... besides it was an egyptian IS affiliate that took down that russian plane..... | |||
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"There are two aspects to this. Protection and prevention. IMHO, we can't effectively provide the first without scrapping Schengen. Without secure borders, we're sitting ducks if we try to prosecute an armed solution to the second." The 'secure borders' argument is obsolete in my opinion. Potential terrorists are already here. | |||
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"old news. isis have flopped since Russias step up. all over bar the shouting. The security expert on the news has just said that Russian claims as to what they've done don't match the results. it doesn't match up because 90% of the bombs they have dropped haven't been in known IS territory... its be in area's where its the main opposition against assad..... no assad means no russian bases in syria..... besides it was an egyptian IS affiliate that took down that russian plane..... " Thanks again Fab, for clearing the fog. | |||
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"Op - The West is already at war with IS and other groups, and has been for quite some time now. Western boots are already on the ground as well as the more publicised air strikes. IS have been carrying out 'acts of war' for a long time now. This is more complex than just sending in more bombs and troops. " I meant an official declaration of war with full military engagement. | |||
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"There are two aspects to this. Protection and prevention. IMHO, we can't effectively provide the first without scrapping Schengen. Without secure borders, we're sitting ducks if we try to prosecute an armed solution to the second." schengen for all intensive purposes is dead right now..... the UK isn't part of schengen.... but to be honest i am almost expecting one of these from home grown radicalised people.... it will be the same problem where the planning and co-ordination may come from overseas.. but the people doing it will be home grown | |||
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"There are two aspects to this. Protection and prevention. IMHO, we can't effectively provide the first without scrapping Schengen. Without secure borders, we're sitting ducks if we try to prosecute an armed solution to the second. The 'secure borders' argument is obsolete in my opinion. Potential terrorists are already here." Ah, so we just leave the door open to allow even more to come and go as they please - yes, that would work. Of course many are here and of course we should continue to do all we can to track them down and neutralise them, but it's insane to allow more to come. | |||
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"old news. isis have flopped since Russias step up. all over bar the shouting. The security expert on the news has just said that Russian claims as to what they've done don't match the results. it doesn't match up because 90% of the bombs they have dropped haven't been in known IS territory... its be in area's where its the main opposition against assad..... no assad means no russian bases in syria..... besides it was an egyptian IS affiliate that took down that russian plane..... " 
IS have not been Russia's main/only target. The Rebels that the UK and US are backing, training and supporting with special forces boots on the ground are. Russia supports Assad we are against Assad. IS are just an inconvenience in the mix. | |||
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"old news. isis have flopped since Russias step up. all over bar the shouting. The security expert on the news has just said that Russian claims as to what they've done don't match the results. it doesn't match up because 90% of the bombs they have dropped haven't been in known IS territory... its be in area's where its the main opposition against assad..... no assad means no russian bases in syria..... besides it was an egyptian IS affiliate that took down that russian plane..... Thanks again Fab, for clearing the fog. " must get round to reading 1984. could of put a witty qoute in here  | |||
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"IS have claimed responsibility for Paris attacks. Hollande has said they constitute an act of war against France. Russia saying attacks justify stronger military action. Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? " War has been a possibility for thousands of years, we have not advanced a single step away from it, the world is constantly on the brink of one war or another. | |||
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"It's a no win situation for everyone ! Innocent people will still be killed Armed forces will loose troops Is will loose fighters And the parents of all will loose their children? When Is start to loose they will go underground and then cause even more attacks to happen as a show of "we are still fighting " !! If I knew the way to stop it ? I'd be lying !! But ! Think that religious leaders need to come to the front and try to build bridges? If it does kick off I'm sure that the ranks of Fab will be hit by people going off to fight ? " ..and hypocritical politicians will still mourn and lay wreaths at the cenotaph each year. | |||
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"There are two aspects to this. Protection and prevention. IMHO, we can't effectively provide the first without scrapping Schengen. Without secure borders, we're sitting ducks if we try to prosecute an armed solution to the second. The 'secure borders' argument is obsolete in my opinion. Potential terrorists are already here. Ah, so we just leave the door open to allow even more to come and go as they please - yes, that would work. Of course many are here and of course we should continue to do all we can to track them down and neutralise them, but it's insane to allow more to come." Do you actually understand what you mean when you suggest we 'leave the door open'? Do you really think there is an open door policy to IS operatives right now? Or are you suggesting closing 'the doors' to everybody? | |||
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"There are two aspects to this. Protection and prevention. IMHO, we can't effectively provide the first without scrapping Schengen. Without secure borders, we're sitting ducks if we try to prosecute an armed solution to the second. The 'secure borders' argument is obsolete in my opinion. Potential terrorists are already here. Ah, so we just leave the door open to allow even more to come and go as they please - yes, that would work. Of course many are here and of course we should continue to do all we can to track them down and neutralise them, but it's insane to allow more to come. Do you actually understand what you mean when you suggest we 'leave the door open'? Do you really think there is an open door policy to IS operatives right now? Or are you suggesting closing 'the doors' to everybody? " Eh? I'm suggesting we close the door - scroll back and read what you posted saying it was redundant to bother doing so. I'm pretty sure that I understand what I mean, not sure I can say the same about you though. | |||
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"old news. isis have flopped since Russias step up. all over bar the shouting. The security expert on the news has just said that Russian claims as to what they've done don't match the results. it doesn't match up because 90% of the bombs they have dropped haven't been in known IS territory... its be in area's where its the main opposition against assad..... no assad means no russian bases in syria..... besides it was an egyptian IS affiliate that took down that russian plane..... Thanks again Fab, for clearing the fog. must get round to reading 1984. could of put a witty qoute in here "you mean something witty like "fair point _abio.... I hadn't actually thought of all that before i wrote something blindly like russia have really taken it to IS!"..... p.s if you are going to put russia stomping and the death of jihadi john.... wouldn't it be fair to also put down he was taken out by an american drone strike...  wouldn't want credit going to the wrong side now!!!!  | |||
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"i think boots on the ground is the only way we can really hurt ISIS but i wouldnt wanna be the person making that call plus its what these scumbags want. this holy war they keep preaching about in regards to acts of terrorism. it wont make a difference. the threat will always be there now" why arent those boots on the ground arab ? you know iaran who have a massive well equiped standing army who could crush is in days or why not suadi arabia who also have a large well triande well euqiped standing army why cant they deal with this carbunlkle on there doorstp ..... oh wiat could it be that secretly they are funding is and would only be to happy to see the west involved and there armies chewed up i an unwinnable conflict .you will note the chinese have stayed well well away from it cos they can see it for what it is | |||
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"There are two aspects to this. Protection and prevention. IMHO, we can't effectively provide the first without scrapping Schengen. Without secure borders, we're sitting ducks if we try to prosecute an armed solution to the second. The 'secure borders' argument is obsolete in my opinion. Potential terrorists are already here. Ah, so we just leave the door open to allow even more to come and go as they please - yes, that would work. Of course many are here and of course we should continue to do all we can to track them down and neutralise them, but it's insane to allow more to come. Do you actually understand what you mean when you suggest we 'leave the door open'? Do you really think there is an open door policy to IS operatives right now? Or are you suggesting closing 'the doors' to everybody? Eh? I'm suggesting we close the door - scroll back and read what you posted saying it was redundant to bother doing so. I'm pretty sure that I understand what I mean, not sure I can say the same about you though. " but as I pointed out... the UK isn't and has never been part of Schengen.... how does it help the UK.... unless you are also suggesting scrapping the "treaty of amsterdam" clause as well (thats the one when you don't need a passport to travel to the channel islands, or the isle of man, or the republic of ireland)
Schengen never did protect people against home grown terrorists...... I bet you'll end up finding out the paris attacks were commited by 2nd generation home grown people.......
as what happened with hebdo.... organised and co-ordinated by people outside france, but committed by those actually homegrown | |||
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"IS have claimed responsibility for Paris attacks. Hollande has said they constitute an act of war against France. Russia saying attacks justify stronger military action. Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? " how many young men and women from the british armed forces died in afghan and iraq already? so many fathers/mothers/sons/daughters etc etc and to top it off how many civilians died too? iraq war did not even achieve anything and tony blair gave a half arsed apology for it... no more war only option is to take a domestic approach in hunting down those who want to carry out attacks in europe through intelligence and police force and trying to prevent future attacks.. keep on going to muslim countries where their already in a state of civil war/all hell breaks loose then you will find it's a dead end bottomless pit even if they wipe out IS something worser will come along.. | |||
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"It's a no win situation for everyone ! Innocent people will still be killed Armed forces will loose troops Is will loose fighters And the parents of all will loose their children? When Is start to loose they will go underground and then cause even more attacks to happen as a show of "we are still fighting " !! If I knew the way to stop it ? I'd be lying !! But ! Think that religious leaders need to come to the front and try to build bridges? If it does kick off I'm sure that the ranks of Fab will be hit by people going off to fight ? ..and hypocritical politicians will still mourn and lay wreaths at the cenotaph each year." Easy to fight when you don't have to go !!!!!! | |||
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"There are two aspects to this. Protection and prevention. IMHO, we can't effectively provide the first without scrapping Schengen. Without secure borders, we're sitting ducks if we try to prosecute an armed solution to the second. The 'secure borders' argument is obsolete in my opinion. Potential terrorists are already here. Ah, so we just leave the door open to allow even more to come and go as they please - yes, that would work. Of course many are here and of course we should continue to do all we can to track them down and neutralise them, but it's insane to allow more to come. Do you actually understand what you mean when you suggest we 'leave the door open'? Do you really think there is an open door policy to IS operatives right now? Or are you suggesting closing 'the doors' to everybody? Eh? I'm suggesting we close the door - scroll back and read what you posted saying it was redundant to bother doing so. I'm pretty sure that I understand what I mean, not sure I can say the same about you though. but as I pointed out... the UK isn't and has never been part of Schengen.... how does it help the UK.... unless you are also suggesting scrapping the "treaty of amsterdam" clause as well (thats the one when you don't need a passport to travel to the channel islands, or the isle of man, or the republic of ireland)
Schengen never did protect people against home grown terrorists...... I bet you'll end up finding out the paris attacks were commited by 2nd generation home grown people.......
as what happened with hebdo.... organised and co-ordinated by people outside france, but committed by those actually homegrown"...................Fench police have found a syrian passport on one of the killer's. | |||
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"The only time article 5 (an attack on one member state is an attack on all), has been invoked was after 911 when USA invoked it and that is why Afghanistan was a nato operation at first. Arguably France could invoke it, however, the enemy are not based purely in one state and are not state sponsored. " I'm not sure if my memory is correct but didn't France refuse to send in troops to Afghanistan,or some other place? | |||
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"Cameron just said... "Your fight (France's) is our fight"! " Just as Tony Blair said "your fight (America's) is our fight" after 9/11 happened. It wasn't just an attack on France last night it was an attack on the west and our way of life. | |||
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"IS have claimed responsibility for Paris attacks. Hollande has said they constitute an act of war against France. Russia saying attacks justify stronger military action. Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? " What does months of bombing campaigns equal then if not war? And article 5 doesn't apply. | |||
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"More boarder control throughout the world and especially Europe is the only real way the world will tackle this . In a real war you need to see who you are fighting but this war on terrorism is always going to be difficult as they are hiding in society as everyday people no uniforms to pick them out from a crowd. We all want a free and peaceful world but our freedom it seems is coming with a huge price ?" The EU with its open borders is part of the problem not part of the solution. We need strong independent nation states with strong border controls again. | |||
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"IS have claimed responsibility for Paris attacks. Hollande has said they constitute an act of war against France. Russia saying attacks justify stronger military action. Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? What does months of bombing campaigns equal then if not war? And article 5 doesn't apply. " Assisting rebels? I must have missed it if France declared war months ago. | |||
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"More boarder control throughout the world and especially Europe is the only real way the world will tackle this . In a real war you need to see who you are fighting but this war on terrorism is always going to be difficult as they are hiding in society as everyday people no uniforms to pick them out from a crowd. We all want a free and peaceful world but our freedom it seems is coming with a huge price ? The EU with its open borders is part of the problem not part of the solution. We need strong independent nation states with strong border controls again. "This is exactly it there are no boarder anymore in mainland Europe and that is one of the biggest problems of trying to fight an invisible enemy . We are a little luckier that we are an island but even our boarders need better security that may seem an inconvenience when travelling but I would rather take a little longer getting somewhere feeling safer for the delay | |||
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"There are two aspects to this. Protection and prevention. IMHO, we can't effectively provide the first without scrapping Schengen. Without secure borders, we're sitting ducks if we try to prosecute an armed solution to the second. The 'secure borders' argument is obsolete in my opinion. Potential terrorists are already here. Ah, so we just leave the door open to allow even more to come and go as they please - yes, that would work. Of course many are here and of course we should continue to do all we can to track them down and neutralise them, but it's insane to allow more to come. Do you actually understand what you mean when you suggest we 'leave the door open'? Do you really think there is an open door policy to IS operatives right now? Or are you suggesting closing 'the doors' to everybody? Eh? I'm suggesting we close the door - scroll back and read what you posted saying it was redundant to bother doing so. I'm pretty sure that I understand what I mean, not sure I can say the same about you though. but as I pointed out... the UK isn't and has never been part of Schengen.... how does it help the UK.... unless you are also suggesting scrapping the "treaty of amsterdam" clause as well (thats the one when you don't need a passport to travel to the channel islands, or the isle of man, or the republic of ireland)
Schengen never did protect people against home grown terrorists...... I bet you'll end up finding out the paris attacks were commited by 2nd generation home grown people.......
as what happened with hebdo.... organised and co-ordinated by people outside france, but committed by those actually homegrown...................Fench police have found a syrian passport on one of the killer's."Just as isis said months ago they intended to infiltrate and flood Europe with fighters smuggled in amongst the refugees, it looks like that is exactly what has happened here if one of the gunmen has had a Syrian passport found on them. | |||
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"The terrorists are already here. Boots on the ground out there will only provoke more attacks here. The only way to deal with it is to throw all Muslims out of our countries. " And send them where? | |||
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"More boarder control throughout the world and especially Europe is the only real way the world will tackle this . In a real war you need to see who you are fighting but this war on terrorism is always going to be difficult as they are hiding in society as everyday people no uniforms to pick them out from a crowd. We all want a free and peaceful world but our freedom it seems is coming with a huge price ? The EU with its open borders is part of the problem not part of the solution. We need strong independent nation states with strong border controls again. "Bricks and mortar won't make a difference in a battle of ideas | |||
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"The terrorists are already here. Boots on the ground out there will only provoke more attacks here. The only way to deal with it is to throw all Muslims out of our countries. And send them where? " Who cares. Pakistan, Syria, Afghanistan, middle of the Atlantic. | |||
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"IS have claimed responsibility for Paris attacks. Hollande has said they constitute an act of war against France. Russia saying attacks justify stronger military action. Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? What does months of bombing campaigns equal then if not war? And article 5 doesn't apply. Assisting rebels? I must have missed it if France declared war months ago. " So say France decided to support the IRA and bombed British military positions in the UK. Would you describe that as war? | |||
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"The terrorists are already here. Boots on the ground out there will only provoke more attacks here. The only way to deal with it is to throw all Muslims out of our countries. " .I know Muslims who IS would kill well before you or I why should they be thrown out | |||
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"The terrorists are already here. Boots on the ground out there will only provoke more attacks here. The only way to deal with it is to throw all Muslims out of our countries. And send them where? Who cares. Pakistan, Syria, Afghanistan, middle of the Atlantic. " Most of them were born here. But if that's the way it's going down I'll give me dad a call and he can kick the whites the hell out of New Zealand. | |||
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"IS have claimed responsibility for Paris attacks. Hollande has said they constitute an act of war against France. Russia saying attacks justify stronger military action. Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? What does months of bombing campaigns equal then if not war? And article 5 doesn't apply. Assisting rebels? I must have missed it if France declared war months ago. So say France decided to support the IRA and bombed British military positions in the UK. Would you describe that as war?" I don't know that I would no. The geo/political situation is different. | |||
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"bomb scare at gatwick now - sheesh i think the next few days are going to be twitchy for everyone... It's put me off my day trip around London with my grandson today. " Your a braver woman than me!!! | |||
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"The terrorists are already here. Boots on the ground out there will only provoke more attacks here. The only way to deal with it is to throw all Muslims out of our countries. And send them where? Who cares. Pakistan, Syria, Afghanistan, middle of the Atlantic. " Can you be convinced that your _iews are extremist? | |||
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"IS have claimed responsibility for Paris attacks. Hollande has said they constitute an act of war against France. Russia saying attacks justify stronger military action. Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? What does months of bombing campaigns equal then if not war? And article 5 doesn't apply. Assisting rebels? I must have missed it if France declared war months ago. So say France decided to support the IRA and bombed British military positions in the UK. Would you describe that as war? I don't know that I would no. The geo/political situation is different. " Not really they're bombing a government | |||
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"I wouldn't believe anything our news says about Russia, try getting our collective governments to back up any of their claims with actual evidence, their Propaganda is always the same.. Our problems with Russias activities out there are due to them targeting all terrorists against the state of Syria including the ones we have,trained,armed and funded for the last 5 year's.. " I wouldn't trust anything Russia says either | |||
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"I wouldn't believe anything our news says about Russia, try getting our collective governments to back up any of their claims with actual evidence, their Propaganda is always the same.. Our problems with Russias activities out there are due to them targeting all terrorists against the state of Syria including the ones we have,trained,armed and funded for the last 5 year's.. "
Our propaganda would have you believe we had nothing to do with ISIS. | |||
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"IS have claimed responsibility for Paris attacks. Hollande has said they constitute an act of war against France. Russia saying attacks justify stronger military action. Is it possible that the West will declare war on IS? What if France declares war and invokes Article 5 of NATO for collective defence? " I certainly think it's on the cards, the world's gone mad again. The only problem is Is are everywhere now I think. | |||
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"The terrorists are already here. Boots on the ground out there will only provoke more attacks here. The only way to deal with it is to throw all Muslims out of our countries. And send them where? Who cares. Pakistan, Syria, Afghanistan, middle of the Atlantic. " As white, British people we would like to distance ourselves as far as possible from reprehensible _iews like this one. Thanks. | |||
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"The terrorists are already here. Boots on the ground out there will only provoke more attacks here. The only way to deal with it is to throw all Muslims out of our countries. And send them where? Who cares. Pakistan, Syria, Afghanistan, middle of the Atlantic. As white, British people we would like to distance ourselves as far as possible from reprehensible _iews like this one. Thanks. " | |||
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"The terrorists are already here. Boots on the ground out there will only provoke more attacks here. The only way to deal with it is to throw all Muslims out of our countries. And send them where? Who cares. Pakistan, Syria, Afghanistan, middle of the Atlantic. " And here in lies the problem as to why so many potential recruits feel marginalised and become easy targets for potential radicalisation. So by your reckoning it's all Muslims that are the problem ? Is that your true belief or are you just spouting uneducated waffle to gain a reaction ? | |||
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"What has being white and British to do with anything,you do realise race and religion are two very different things.. " Not to some people.  | |||
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"Nobody is going to like this but the first thing is to cut off the refugee's coming into their respective countries. ( How many may be IS.) From what we understand IS is in control of some oil fields in Iraq. Bomb the oil fields and the refineries and drastically reduce their money flow. At least this would buy some time till a better plan is in place. " That sounds like using a sledgehammer to open a nut. There are more subtle ways to achieve similar aims than to gung-ho bomb expensive infrastructure. It's not money that is their driving force - it's fundamentalism. All bombing will do towards that is to make the fundamentalists even more convinced they are being attacked and are in the right and even more determined to prevail against the 'evil' non believers. | |||
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"Think war is the only option "That's hard to hear when the streets of Paris are seeing warfare. | |||
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"Nobody is going to like this but the first thing is to cut off the refugee's coming into their respective countries. ( How many may be IS.) From what we understand IS is in control of some oil fields in Iraq. Bomb the oil fields and the refineries and drastically reduce their money flow. At least this would buy some time till a better plan is in place. That sounds like using a sledgehammer to open a nut. There are more subtle ways to achieve similar aims than to gung-ho bomb expensive infrastructure. It's not money that is their driving force - it's fundamentalism. All bombing will do towards that is to make the fundamentalists even more convinced they are being attacked and are in the right and even more determined to prevail against the 'evil' non believers. " We agree it's not money driving them it's fundamentalism. But it is money that supplies them. Weapons aren't free, neither is medical supplies and other things they need to wage ware on a grander scale. | |||
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"What has being white and British to do with anything,you do realise race and religion are two very different things.. " The person making the original quote is (presumably) white and British. We were simply attempting to a) show that people who are grouped together as if thinking with one thought can actually have very different points of _iew. and b) show some basic humanity Perhaps that was too subtle? | |||
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"Nobody is going to like this but the first thing is to cut off the refugee's coming into their respective countries. ( How many may be IS.) From what we understand IS is in control of some oil fields in Iraq. Bomb the oil fields and the refineries and drastically reduce their money flow. At least this would buy some time till a better plan is in place. " The whole situation has been made worse by an illegal war in Iraq which was a excuse to gain control of the oil in the first place thus further marginalising the west due to these amount of inocent casualties which was written off as collateral damage. More bombing of oil fields is hardly the answer , maybe the answer lies in dialogue and understanding rather than a never ending cycle of violence the bitterness from both sides is consuming rational thought. The Northern Ireland troubles were eased once dialogue and understanding took place why can this work in this situation ? All the talk of war and bombing only stokes the hatred and Is free propaganda for those who seek to impose their will upon others. | |||
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"Think war is the only option
That's hard to hear when the streets of Paris are seeing warfare. "I've had enough of it already changing plans cancelling holidays we need to stop extremists influencing our decisions! | |||
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"Think war is the only option
That's hard to hear when the streets of Paris are seeing warfare.
I've had enough of it already changing plans cancelling holidays we need to stop extremists influencing our decisions! "Damn straight! One cancelled holiday is a cancelled holiday too far. Let's nuke everybody  | |||
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"The Northern Ireland troubles were eased once dialogue and understanding took place why can this work in this situation ? All the talk of war and bombing only stokes the hatred and Is free propaganda for those who seek to impose their will upon others. " I think the Omagh bombing turned the tide. Many who would have supported the political aims (not necessarily the tactics) of the IRA turned from them at that point. But secondly, there is no reasoning with these extremists, they are so brainwashed with dogma that I don't think anything rational would work. | |||
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"Think war is the only option
That's hard to hear when the streets of Paris are seeing warfare.
I've had enough of it already changing plans cancelling holidays we need to stop extremists influencing our decisions!
Damn straight! One cancelled holiday is a cancelled holiday too far. Let's nuke everybody "2 holidays! Ha | |||
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"The terrorists are already here. Boots on the ground out there will only provoke more attacks here. The only way to deal with it is to throw all Muslims out of our countries. .I know Muslims who IS would kill well before you or I why should they be thrown out" this is the thing that most people don't get.... IS is a sunni organisation.... they consider shia muslims to be dogs and beneath them.... which is why you in effect have the US and Iran on the same side.... | |||
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"The Northern Ireland troubles were eased once dialogue and understanding took place why can this work in this situation ? All the talk of war and bombing only stokes the hatred and Is free propaganda for those who seek to impose their will upon others. I think the Omagh bombing turned the tide. Many who would have supported the political aims (not necessarily the tactics) of the IRA turned from them at that point. But secondly, there is no reasoning with these extremists, they are so brainwashed with dogma that I don't think anything rational would work. " One of the recruiting tactics is to make it a holy war and suggest the west are against all Muslims and make them feel marginalised to such an extent they feel they are left with no option. Some of the rhetoric from the west and actions only help with this marginalisation. It's easy for politions to make decision and policy like Blair but it's not them that have to accept the fall out for their actions I don't Blair is losing much sleep just enjoying his big pension. | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks" Do what? | |||
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"The Northern Ireland troubles were eased once dialogue and understanding took place why can this work in this situation ? All the talk of war and bombing only stokes the hatred and Is free propaganda for those who seek to impose their will upon others. I think the Omagh bombing turned the tide. Many who would have supported the political aims (not necessarily the tactics) of the IRA turned from them at that point. But secondly, there is no reasoning with these extremists, they are so brainwashed with dogma that I don't think anything rational would work. One of the recruiting tactics is to make it a holy war and suggest the west are against all Muslims and make them feel marginalised to such an extent they feel they are left with no option. Some of the rhetoric from the west and actions only help with this marginalisation. It's easy for politions to make decision and policy like Blair but it's not them that have to accept the fall out for their actions I don't Blair is losing much sleep just enjoying his big pension. " And his armed protection officers. I said on a thread a few months ago that we were at war for many years but didn't feel it here for most of the time, we carried on with life as usual. Now we're feeling it here, that's very different, and whatever decisions are made could increase chances of terror on our streets. I wouldn't like to be a politician and have to make those decisions. | |||
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"I spent 2 years in Afghan and 6 months in iraq I felt safer there than I do now in England! " Really? There was a period where there were terrorist attacks and bombs nearly every day in Iraq. I don't know how much that has changed. We've had nothing like that here. | |||
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"Strangle their funding, strangle their arming. For some reason that's never happened they've been allowed to group, exist & rise. Hmmm "Where do they get their armaments from? I've never thought about that. Although I did read a while back that Western weapons may have been commandeered by them. | |||
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"Strangle their funding, strangle their arming. For some reason that's never happened they've been allowed to group, exist & rise. Hmmm
Where do they get their armaments from?
I've never thought about that.
Although I did read a while back that Western weapons may have been commandeered by them. "here's your answer ..... http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/feb/21/cameron-cairo-visit-defence-trade | |||
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"If it's only the West, more problems will arise. A collective, including the Arab States may rid of us of them. Another group will raise their ugly head. Peace will never be achieved, atrocities may be minimised. But as we've seen from Iraq and Afghanistan - war on these extremists has no end. " Then rather than the title for your thread should you not have posed the question " Is PEACE a possibility?" I would like to think we do have the capacity to come together irrespective of race or faith & make a united stand against any group of people who do not believe in the sanctity & right to live in peace. My thoughts go to those innocent people who lost their lives last night in Paris, those left behind who have lost loved ones, & for those who believe we can find a way to live in peace rather than take the lives of others or call for a war which cannot be won. | |||
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"Strangle their funding, strangle their arming. For some reason that's never happened they've been allowed to group, exist & rise. Hmmm
Where do they get their armaments from?
I've never thought about that.
Although I did read a while back that Western weapons may have been commandeered by them. "the arms start off going to the bigger players and drip down. the left won't have it but every day the west tries to stop muslin nations from doing this on a grander scale which is far more important. they make out its islamic extremists like extremist is the opposite of minority. | |||
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"Strangle their funding, strangle their arming. For some reason that's never happened they've been allowed to group, exist & rise. Hmmm
Where do they get their armaments from?
I've never thought about that.
Although I did read a while back that Western weapons may have been commandeered by them. "Stole them off the iraq army who abandoned it. (ex yank stuff) they get money from selling oil for one thing. Something you may not know is that in Saudi in normal supermarkets you can buy "ISIS" branded goods. Money from sales going straight to them. With friends like the Saudi's who needs enemies eh? | |||
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"Strangle their funding, strangle their arming. For some reason that's never happened they've been allowed to group, exist & rise. Hmmm
Where do they get their armaments from?
I've never thought about that.
Although I did read a while back that Western weapons may have been commandeered by them. "They took most of their equipment from the Iraqi army when it retreated and they captured bases Other they got from Syrian army bases and more they've bought on the black market funded by selling drugs, antiques, oil (they have oil fields), slaves, robbing banks/capturing gold and valuables, and by selling human organs. Guns are not a hard thing to get when you have millions | |||
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"Strangle their funding, strangle their arming. For some reason that's never happened they've been allowed to group, exist & rise. Hmmm
Where do they get their armaments from?
I've never thought about that.
Although I did read a while back that Western weapons may have been commandeered by them. "How they get their weapons, from a few directions, you couldn't make up. It's likewise for their funding and how they generate cash. It's almost like they have been given a terrorist franchise  | |||
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"Armchair generals out in force, I see "yet all the people who said there'd be no terrorists in the syrian migrants are strangly quite. funny shiz that. | |||
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"Armchair generals out in force, I see "I'm sure you know the score on all fronts, based on what the media spoon feed | |||
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"Armchair generals out in force, I see
yet all the people who said there'd be no terrorists in the syrian migrants are strangly quite.
funny shiz that. "Ricky wanna hug?  | |||
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"Armchair generals out in force, I see
yet all the people who said there'd be no terrorists in the syrian migrants are strangly quite.
funny shiz that.
Ricky wanna hug?
"not falling for your special hugs again  | |||
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"Armchair generals out in force, I see
yet all the people who said there'd be no terrorists in the syrian migrants are strangly quite.
funny shiz that.
Ricky wanna hug?
not falling for your special hugs again "You know you love it really | |||
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"There are two aspects to this. Protection and prevention. IMHO, we can't effectively provide the first without scrapping Schengen. Without secure borders, we're sitting ducks if we try to prosecute an armed solution to the second. The 'secure borders' argument is obsolete in my opinion. Potential terrorists are already here." I think you're probably correct but, whilst I wouldn't agree with scraping the Schengen agreements, I think there is argument for it's suspension while the current refugee crisis is on going. One of the attackers is believed to have been a Syrian who passed through Greece. | |||
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"Having just come from Facebook where one could easily confuse the comment section from David Cameron or the Conservative's page for a Britain First page, reading what's been written here is a real relief! (BTW, I'm a strong Conservative but also a rational thinker!) I'd like to clear a few things up though, for the likes of a few people who seem to be very misguided on what exactly is going on. (Can't blame you, a lot of 'trust worthy' people aren't so trustworthy!) And please bare in mind while reading what I have to say, I do have a Masters degree related to Economics and International Relations (specifically on recent Middle Eastern affairs) from a top London uni specialising in Econ/Political Sciences so I know a little bit about what I'm on about! 1) We need other Islamic countries to join the fight (also to take on the burden of refuges) - Saudi Arabia is without a doubt providing financial support to IS. How can they provide refuge or join the fight when they are supporting the enemy?! 2) The aim of IS is to gather Muslim support. The best way to do this - make the west hate Islam!! Do you not see? The more they convince you to hate the regular Muslims, the more these people will feel alienated within their own countries. This is ultimately going to lead to the creation of more Jihadi John's - exactly what ISIS want! The best way to stop this is to understand that they aren't 'real' Muslims. Judging from what I've seen on Facebook, the general populations _iews on Islam really are changing and a lot of people are becoming intolerant. (You can understand why). I urge you, please, repost the original post on this thread onto Facebook pages or on Twitter etc. By promoting hatred for Islam we are only playing to what ISIS wants, we will alienate more people and it will lead to more intolerance within the Islamic community. Why am I so concerned? Despite not being a Muslim, I can easily be mistaken for one due to my appearance. It's frightening how much people's actions towards me (NOT the majority of people, but a growing minority) have become more negative. If this is what many Muslims are experiencing (and I have no doubt they are), I really sympathise with them but am more worried about the long term effects on what this growing divide could do to our society. If anyone's actually read this far, thanks a lot! I'd like to hear what you think of what I've said and if you have any questions/points you'd like to debate with me based of my educational past, I'd be very happy to do so! " They've just been discussing your point amongst many others on 5 live. | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? " Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol | |||
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"I think there's already boots on the ground monitoring watching and reporting, we can now fight a war from an armchair thousands of miles away so I believe tactical air strikes and drones is the way it will stay for now" No doubt, but by 'boots on ground' I meant more of a full fledged effort as we've seen fighting other groups over the best part of the last two decades rather than just ground troop involvement. The idea of drones is often overlooked by too many people as being some kind of saviour to modern warfare. I'm not sure on the exact details, but I can safely say that they are ridiculously expensive (In the range of $40000 per missile) and also kill A LOT of civilians including children and women. I'm not too sure what the answer is, evidently nobody is. We've kicked the hornets nest, now its either run away or carry on kicking until it's entirely destroyed. Either way, three things are for sure: 1) We're going to get stung 2) No matter what the outcome, there will always be more hornets ready to take their place 3) It was entirely our fault, we should never have kicked the damn thing in the first place! | |||
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"I think there's already boots on the ground monitoring watching and reporting, we can now fight a war from an armchair thousands of miles away so I believe tactical air strikes and drones is the way it will stay for now No doubt, but by 'boots on ground' I meant more of a full fledged effort as we've seen fighting other groups over the best part of the last two decades rather than just ground troop involvement. The idea of drones is often overlooked by too many people as being some kind of saviour to modern warfare. I'm not sure on the exact details, but I can safely say that they are ridiculously expensive (In the range of $40000 per missile) and also kill A LOT of civilians including children and women. I'm not too sure what the answer is, evidently nobody is. We've kicked the hornets nest, now its either run away or carry on kicking until it's entirely destroyed. Either way, three things are for sure: 1) We're going to get stung 2) No matter what the outcome, there will always be more hornets ready to take their place 3) It was entirely our fault, we should never have kicked the damn thing in the first place!" But a drone has endurance way beyond any manned fighter plus the cost of one being shot down is much less than a fighter jet. And it means there won't be a British pilot being burnt alive in a cage | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol" Can you declare war on a group? | |||
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"[Removed by poster at 14/11/15 22:18:37]" Trust a lefty to sell us out, why don't we just disarm our nuclear deterrent and all give up our homes for those migrants holed up in such poor conditions... Will Britain ever realise that it has a responsibility to look after its own first? It's not just the western media.... It's facts and I have a lot of friends who have served time in the Middle East, they live a very backward and primitive life over that part of the world, remove their infrastructure and weaponry, let their governments collapse in on themselves and for goodness sake let's move on from this treacherous chapter of Earths wellbeing. | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol Can you declare war on a group?" I don't see why not to be honest, to me its no different to declaring war like we did in afghan or Iraq, they too were also a fanatical group. | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol Can you declare war on a group? I don't see why not to be honest, to me its no different to declaring war like we did in afghan or Iraq, they too were also a fanatical group." Well no they were countries and governments. | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol Can you declare war on a group? I don't see why not to be honest, to me its no different to declaring war like we did in afghan or Iraq, they too were also a fanatical group. Well no they were countries and governments. " no they were groups like isis, fanatical groups | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol Can you declare war on a group? I don't see why not to be honest, to me its no different to declaring war like we did in afghan or Iraq, they too were also a fanatical group. Well no they were countries and governments. no they were groups like isis, fanatical groups " No it was Iraq and the Iraqi army and sadam hussein a government we put in place . And in afghan it was again the taliban the official government and the country we invaded. Please don't tell me you think we invaded Iraq to attack a terrorist group? | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol Can you declare war on a group? I don't see why not to be honest, to me its no different to declaring war like we did in afghan or Iraq, they too were also a fanatical group. Well no they were countries and governments. no they were groups like isis, fanatical groups No it was Iraq and the Iraqi army and sadam hussein a government we put in place . And in afghan it was again the taliban the official government and the country we invaded. Please don't tell me you think we invaded Iraq to attack a terrorist group? " Iraq was blatantly for control of oil, but afghan wasn't. | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol Can you declare war on a group? I don't see why not to be honest, to me its no different to declaring war like we did in afghan or Iraq, they too were also a fanatical group. Well no they were countries and governments. no they were groups like isis, fanatical groups No it was Iraq and the Iraqi army and sadam hussein a government we put in place . And in afghan it was again the taliban the official government and the country we invaded. Please don't tell me you think we invaded Iraq to attack a terrorist group? Iraq was blatantly for control of oil, but afghan wasn't." Haha so right we've gone from extremist groups to oil it's still a country and it's still a government. Not a group. Same for Afghanistan. If we wanted to deal with extremism we'd have invaded Saudi Arabia. We declared war on and invaded countries not silly little groups. | |||
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"Not read the whole thread but war is always possible. Though I think this kind of thing could bring a cold war scenario back." You mean it ever left? Was only last year Russia moved land based nuclear missiles to the edge of the EU in response to America's continued deployment of its new missile shield | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol Can you declare war on a group? I don't see why not to be honest, to me its no different to declaring war like we did in afghan or Iraq, they too were also a fanatical group. Well no they were countries and governments. no they were groups like isis, fanatical groups No it was Iraq and the Iraqi army and sadam hussein a government we put in place . And in afghan it was again the taliban the official government and the country we invaded. Please don't tell me you think we invaded Iraq to attack a terrorist group? Iraq was blatantly for control of oil, but afghan wasn't. Haha so right we've gone from extremist groups to oil it's still a country and it's still a government. Not a group. Same for Afghanistan. If we wanted to deal with extremism we'd have invaded Saudi Arabia. We declared war on and invaded countries not silly little groups. " personally I wouldn't call isis a silly little group after the amount of innocent lives they have taken in the past month. | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol Can you declare war on a group? I don't see why not to be honest, to me its no different to declaring war like we did in afghan or Iraq, they too were also a fanatical group." because if we declare war then we have to abide by the conditions and rules of war, regarding citizens and combatants and how we treat them,however without the word war being involved we can do what we want...ie torture,internment without trial and non responsibility for the civilian deaths,damn that Geneva convention eh, But hey,their false flag last year at Charlie Hebdo didn't get the French invading Syria,lets see how this one plays out. | |||
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"Lay waste to Mosul and Raqqa and all inside only way is total war coalition to include Russia " Yeah,it's the only way..we could even give it a catchy name like the war to end all wars and then when it's over the problems we the west created which have caused all this will magically go away.. | |||
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"The terrorists are already here. Boots on the ground out there will only provoke more attacks here. The only way to deal with it is to throw all Muslims out of our countries. " Two vocal Muslims I know are white, English converts. Pray tell where you'd suggest sending them? | |||
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"If a dog is born in a stable it doesn't make it a horse. " The Stable wasnt built by the horse, it has no more right to be there than the dog! | |||
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"If a dog is born in a stable it doesn't make it a horse. The Stable wasnt built by the horse, it has no more right to be there than the dog!" it was. you understand thats the arguement for the other side?  | |||
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" bastardising it to rationalise their opinions and actions." Yep,that's religion in a nutshell | |||
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"old news. isis have flopped since Russias step up. all over bar the shouting. The security expert on the news has just said that Russian claims as to what they've done don't match the results. " Leave all to the female brigands of the Peshmerga who are pushing down from North Irak. So called fighters of this so called Caliphat are scared shitless of the "girls" as being killed by a females sends them to "Hell". Peshmerga have been fighting for centuries against Turks, Irak and Iran..help them update their weapons and problem is to 90% solved as it would result into a rest Syria, a rest Irak and a new state of Kurdistand where Christians, Turk Arabs, Jews, Assyrians and others could live in peace. This as Kurds repsecct other book religions and their women are highly educated and "rule the rooster". | |||
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" bastardising it to rationalise their opinions and actions. Yep,that's religion in a nutshell " Not always. Only with nutters | |||
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"History has shown us many dictators, idealoligies & regimes. Such as hitler, Stalin,pol pot, Idi Amin to name but a few. All eventually met their end in some form or another. Mostly at great cost in human life and suffering. To sum up with an alledged quote on hitlers demise from Bertolt Brecht (apologies for the seemingly crude female references but his terminology has a deeper meaning) - "Don't rejoice in his defeat you men, though the world stood up and stopped the b*stard the bitch that bore him is in heat again" End" The irony is that Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler killed Jewish people. But Stalin was on our side, so it got whitewashed somewhat | |||
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"If war did break out would we round them all up like we did The Germans at the start of world war two and send them all to camps" You mean like Guantanamo? It may be called a prison, but people inside can still get the death sentence, and innocent people can still get sent there, but it's a bit more discriminate than the camps in ww2 | |||
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"NO NOTHING LIKE THAT AT ALL THEY HAD CAMPS IN THE ISLE OF MAN LOOK BACK IN HISTORY INSTEAD OF TRYING TO TWIST THINGS" OK, my bad, I did not know about those camps, if I had, I would have referenced them instead | |||
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"They were sent there for there own safety what will happen to the good Muslim people here Because as sure eggs are eggs we will turn on them " Eggs means people right? Also, I'm sorry it sounded like I was twisting, I was trying to explain where I came to the conclusion I had | |||
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"If war did break out would we round them all up like we did The Germans at the start of world war two and send them all to camps" It would seem unlikely. We didn't intern Iraqis during the Gulf wars or Argentinians during the Falklands war. Anyway, it'd all be over by Christmas! | |||
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"yes but there was no fighting in our country" None now either. France got a bit uppity about Britain occupying French land! | |||
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" bastardising it to rationalise their opinions and actions. Yep,that's religion in a nutshell Not always. Only with nutters" Is there any other sort of religious folk other than the nutters,have to admit I've never met them | |||
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"The period between September 1939 and May 1940 was known in Britain as the "Phoney war" because although war had been declared pretty much nothing had happened close to home. That has been the case for the last 14 years. We have been at war but other than an occasional attack it has always been at a distance. I think Paris along with other attacks which will surely come in the next few months will be the game changer, the Dunkirk moment if you like. Two of the attackers have already been identified as recent migrants into Europe, one as recently as 3rd October and there will be many many more planning their strikes as I type. Yes it is war." I do wonder where the next attack will be. With the millions who flooded across the borders into Europe, it was always an opportunity for terrorists to slip through the net. Austria or Germany next? | |||
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"NO NOTHING LIKE THAT AT ALL THEY HAD CAMPS IN THE ISLE OF MAN LOOK BACK IN HISTORY INSTEAD OF TRYING TO TWIST THINGS" There were around 20,000 Germans living in Britain at the outbreak of Ww2 - the vast majority refugees from the Nazi regime, including Jews They were interned for a while but most were released quickly after tribunals. Do you really believe we can do the same for 1.35million people? The Isle of White is going to be rather overcrowded. | |||
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"The period between September 1939 and May 1940 was known in Britain as the "Phoney war" because although war had been declared pretty much nothing had happened close to home. That has been the case for the last 14 years. We have been at war but other than an occasional attack it has always been at a distance. I think Paris along with other attacks which will surely come in the next few months will be the game changer, the Dunkirk moment if you like. Two of the attackers have already been identified as recent migrants into Europe, one as recently as 3rd October and there will be many many more planning their strikes as I type. Yes it is war." Are you making things up again? If not do you have access to police sources that the international press don't? Up to the moment I can only see one attacker identified and he was born in France. Who is the other? | |||
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"If a dog is born in a stable it doesn't make it a horse. The Stable wasnt built by the horse, it has no more right to be there than the dog! it was. you understand thats the arguement for the other side? "I argue for the side of humanity, no one has more right to be here than anyone else. But if you cease to act like a human you forego the right to be treated as one. Islamic State have no political demands, nothing to negotiate, They want to destroy humanity, so destroy them first. | |||
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"If Russia was gonna do it they would have in the last 2 weeks Do what? Decalire war on Isis for the murder of 200+ people on the aircraft. Least the French president got the balls to stand there and say this is war. But no doubt you will disagree with me lol Can you declare war on a group? I don't see why not to be honest, to me its no different to declaring war like we did in afghan or Iraq, they too were also a fanatical group. Well no they were countries and governments. no they were groups like isis, fanatical groups No it was Iraq and the Iraqi army and sadam hussein a government we put in place . " We put in place? We didn't put Sadam in place. We accepted him as a fact of life but that's not the same thing. I think you'll find the Russians had more to do with Sadam's rise to power then either the US or the UK. That's why his air force flew MIG fighters, and guess where he got his SCUD missiles from, I don't think BAE make them do they. It's easy to throw the same old anti US/western BS propaganda around but maybe you should check the facts and find the real truth before you spread someone else's lies for them. " And in afghan it was again the taliban the official government and the country we invaded. Please don't tell me you think we invaded Iraq to attack a terrorist group? " No, we invaded Iraq because, at the time, we believed Sadam had and was developing weapons of mass disruption. It was Afghanistan that we invaded to attack a terrorist group. | |||
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"They were sent there for there own safety what will happen to the good Muslim people here Because as sure eggs are eggs we will turn on them " And in doing so, we play right into IS's hands. This is what they want. We risk provoking a backlash in affected communities and hardening perceptions of an illiberal or Islamophobic approach, alienating them still further. This will then drive people further towards extremism and terrorism. IS will have a recruitment bonanza. | |||
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" bastardising it to rationalise their opinions and actions. Yep,that's religion in a nutshell Not always. Only with nutters Is there any other sort of religious folk other than the nutters,have to admit I've never met them "I have. There's plenty out there, just with different opinions | |||
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