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The Internet and women
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine "Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist? | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?"I was hoping he was saying it tongue in cheek..if not he maybe needs to think before pressing enter  | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
I was hoping he was saying it tongue in cheek..if not he maybe needs to think before pressing enter "I was hoping to keep this a genuine discussion without the flippant "humour" which creeps in and is often a precursor to some of the more extreme behaviour I'm actually talking about. I considered putting a request to that effect but struggled to phrase it and also thought that I was underestimating the forumites. | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
I was hoping he was saying it tongue in cheek..if not he maybe needs to think before pressing enter
I was hoping to keep this a genuine discussion without the flippant "humour" which creeps in and is often a precursor to some of the more extreme behaviour I'm actually talking about. I considered putting a request to that effect but struggled to phrase it and also thought that I was underestimating the forumites."I think many would agree with you  | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
I was hoping he was saying it tongue in cheek..if not he maybe needs to think before pressing enter "your on a site were women are sicaphantically treated like gods and men are trolled by large groups regularly. you put crazy behavior down to sexism which doesnt explain all the other crazy behaviour on the web at all does it. | |||
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"I've just finished reading a book which draws attention to the way that women are treated on all forms of social media. Why is it that otherwise perfectly rational men who would never say these things to a woman face to face feel free to come out with threats of violence and abuse and death threats against women who have taken the time out to speak out on a subject - generally a subject which they are qualified to speak about through experience or research. How have we come to a society where a well-reknowned and respected academic gets trolled and sent threats of rape for the crime of taking to national television equipped only with a deep knowledge and enthusiasm for her subject and without makeup and careful coiffure? Where a women's rights campaigner received 50 death and rape threats an hour for two days for the sin of saying what she thought? There are many cases of women "stepping back" from social media because of attacks such as these. And if they are investigated the culprits claim time and time again that it was "simply banter". Yes I know men are the victims of trolling, but not in the same volume and not with the same threats of sexual violence and certainly not because they chose to go on TV with no lippy! " These " perfectly rational men" you mention, I suspect would love to scream and shout the abuse to the womans face in person, if they thought they could get away with it. Give some fucktards enough alcohol or (whatever), and plenty of them do it. The internet is a huge blank canvas, some people will write threats, some will draw a cock and balls. It's just there for everyone to see now. It has always been there, just the size of the canvas has changed. | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
I was hoping he was saying it tongue in cheek..if not he maybe needs to think before pressing enter
your on a site were women are sicaphantically treated like gods and men are trolled by large groups regularly. you put crazy behavior down to sexism which doesnt explain all the other crazy behaviour on the web at all does it. "I'm rarely treated the way you describe on here. Yes some men are over effusive in their approaches to me but they are also the ones who turn nasty and vitriolic when I decline. Please read my first post again. I'm not putting the crazy behaviour down to sexism. I'm baffled by the crazy behaviour and I was hoping for a discussion about where it comes from and why it is seen by some as an acceptable response to another person's opinion. I also took care to reference instances on social media not on here. This is not a man hating thread and I'm hoping it won't degenerate into men versus women. Clearly both sexes are guilty of hiding behind their keyboards, but how often do men abused on social media get threatened with abhorrent sexual violence under the aegis that "it would sort you out"? That last question is a genuine one. Do men get these threats from women? | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
I was hoping he was saying it tongue in cheek..if not he maybe needs to think before pressing enter
your on a site were women are sicaphantically treated like gods and men are trolled by large groups regularly. you put crazy behavior down to sexism which doesnt explain all the other crazy behaviour on the web at all does it. "Btw does your experience on this site really equate to the twitter-storm of abuse, rape threats and death threats Mary Beard received for having the gall to hope she'd be appreciated for her knowledge of her subject instead of her looks? It was not just twitter that joined in, her appearance was the hot topic amongst newspaper columnists for some time. For some reason her teeth rated more interest that her obvious knowledge, insights and enthusiasm for her subject. Yes there is a place to discuss the sexism on this site. Perhaps you should start a thread? | |||
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"For this to be discussed properly would be best to know how many of these threats were made by men and how many women. Also a similar study on how many men received threats on social media in similar circumstances so that a proper comparison can be made. However any type of behaviour is socially unacceptable regardless of the media used. Pretty sure falls into similar patterns found within a mob where people feel they have become faceless. One way that could cut down on this is making signing up to any social media site tougher by requiring and verifying more information before someone received an account." There were quite a few of those studies made when gamergate was happening (and prior to that too). IIRC, there are some on places like JSTOR if you want to look it up. | |||
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"Because most are knuckle dragging morons in real live as well...plus i think an element of bravado sat behind there keyboards thinking there invisible....no woman should ever be treat in this way..whether in real life or on the internet...i just hope the catch these people threatening this kind of stuff "
The police do seem to be taking it more seriously. However on the anonymous internet with millions of interactions every nanosecond I don't know how they can police it with their resources.
Much easier when it was "just" a brick through the window.  | |||
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"Because most are knuckle dragging morons in real live as well...plus i think an element of bravado sat behind there keyboards thinking there invisible....no woman should ever be treat in this way..whether in real life or on the internet...i just hope the catch these people threatening this kind of stuff
The police do seem to be taking it more seriously. However on the anonymous internet with millions of interactions every nanosecond I don't know how they can police it with their resources.
Much easier when it was "just" a brick through the window. "Lets hope they are,,,in my mind theres no place on the internet for these people | |||
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" thick-fuck individuals intent on spreading the product of their inferior minded frustration " absolutely wonderful descriptive ... I might use this lol | |||
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"They don't actually see women as people, and i agree with the post above that they lay a lot of blame on their own situations on women. They're also likely to be against -anyone- pushing for more rights and see that as them losing their rights. They just realise that as white single, but not rich, males they don't have that many rights or entitlements and somehow they blame those with less than them for wanting to gain more and never try to push for more rights for themselves but want to push woman backwards into little slaves to serve them. They're usually highly religious as well. I used to spend a lot of time on a forums that was primarily male, and i never specified my gender on their because if you did you usually got males hating you or sucking up to you, but you usually got treated differently whichever." white men are more likely to be sexist?
say what now? | |||
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"in the six minutes it took me to notice and reply to your post a group was formed that ridiculed my perfectly reasonable position that your post was sexist. it was then suggested my post was of a type that would lead to death threats. what ever caused your group to behave like this was not because I have a fanny. " Firstly may I say that it is not MY group that pm'd you with abuse. If I have anything to say I'll happily say it in open forum. I hope you reported them for abusive behaviour. Secondly I'm not ridiculing your suggestion that my opening post was sexist but I would be interested to hear why you think it was sexist to open a debate about the violent and aggressive abuse women receive on social media. As I stated I'm aware that men also get vile abuse but it doesn't seem to involve threats of sexual violence for simply being a public figure. If I'm wrong then I'd appreciate to know it and to hear examples. | |||
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"I've just finished reading a book which draws attention to the way that women are treated on all forms of social media. Why is it that otherwise perfectly rational men who would never say these things to a woman face to face feel free to come out with threats of violence and abuse and death threats against women who have taken the time out to speak out on a subject - generally a subject which they are qualified to speak about through experience or research. How have we come to a society where a well-reknowned and respected academic gets trolled and sent threats of rape for the crime of taking to national television equipped only with a deep knowledge and enthusiasm for her subject and without makeup and careful coiffure? Where a women's rights campaigner received 50 death and rape threats an hour for two days for the sin of saying what she thought? There are many cases of women "stepping back" from social media because of attacks such as these. And if they are investigated the culprits claim time and time again that it was "simply banter". Yes I know men are the victims of trolling, but not in the same volume and not with the same threats of sexual violence and certainly not because they chose to go on TV with no lippy! " The woman who was raped by Ched Evens got loads of abuse and death threats, a lot more than he did, that is an example of a very disturbed society. | |||
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"They don't actually see women as people, and i agree with the post above that they lay a lot of blame on their own situations on women. They're also likely to be against -anyone- pushing for more rights and see that as them losing their rights. They just realise that as white single, but not rich, males they don't have that many rights or entitlements and somehow they blame those with less than them for wanting to gain more and never try to push for more rights for themselves but want to push woman backwards into little slaves to serve them. They're usually highly religious as well. I used to spend a lot of time on a forums that was primarily male, and i never specified my gender on their because if you did you usually got males hating you or sucking up to you, but you usually got treated differently whichever. white men are more likely to be sexist?
say what now? "They're the ones i interacted with, the ones who didn't liKe women. They also tended to be racist as well.[ Some muslims had the sexist attitude as well and used religion to poorly back up their own thoughts. | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine " seriously !!!!! You find the ops thread sexist and a possible reason for scum to treat ANYONE any way they want....sorry cant agree..theres NO FUCKING EXCUSE to treat anyone in that manner  | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
seriously !!!!! You find the ops thread sexist and a possible reason for scum to treat ANYONE any way they want....sorry cant agree..theres NO FUCKING EXCUSE to treat anyone in that manner "what dont you agree with? | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
I was hoping he was saying it tongue in cheek..if not he maybe needs to think before pressing enter
I was hoping to keep this a genuine discussion without the flippant "humour" which creeps in and is often a precursor to some of the more extreme behaviour I'm actually talking about. I considered putting a request to that effect but struggled to phrase it and also thought that I was underestimating the forumites.
I think many would agree with you "here's a qoute of YOU in the group, incase you forgot. see you putting the word humor in quotation marks? thats YOU ridiculling my post. david cameron, the little boy who threw the beach ball on the pitch at anfield recieve death threaths its not because they're female it's because the senders are trolls. you've just took sexist posts on there own and acording to a few of the posters many on the sexists incidents you describe are not even perpetrated my males. | |||
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"I've just finished reading a book which draws attention to the way that women are treated on all forms of social media. Why is it that otherwise perfectly rational men who would never say these things to a woman face to face feel free to come out with threats of violence and abuse and death threats against women who have taken the time out to speak out on a subject - generally a subject which they are qualified to speak about through experience or research. How have we come to a society where a well-reknowned and respected academic gets trolled and sent threats of rape for the crime of taking to national television equipped only with a deep knowledge and enthusiasm for her subject and without makeup and careful coiffure? Where a women's rights campaigner received 50 death and rape threats an hour for two days for the sin of saying what she thought? There are many cases of women "stepping back" from social media because of attacks such as these. And if they are investigated the culprits claim time and time again that it was "simply banter". Yes I know men are the victims of trolling, but not in the same volume and not with the same threats of sexual violence and certainly not because they chose to go on TV with no lippy! " You've clearly never read the forums or been in the cam rooms then. This site is a strange arena where any woman possessing the basic anatomy of a female s showered with delusion ridden priase, regardless of the size/looks/cleanliness/class of the person. It's the literal opposite of the OP's man hating shite. | |||
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"I've just finished reading a book which draws attention to the way that women are treated on all forms of social media. Why is it that otherwise perfectly rational men who would never say these things to a woman face to face feel free to come out with threats of violence and abuse and death threats against women who have taken the time out to speak out on a subject - generally a subject which they are qualified to speak about through experience or research. How have we come to a society where a well-reknowned and respected academic gets trolled and sent threats of rape for the crime of taking to national television equipped only with a deep knowledge and enthusiasm for her subject and without makeup and careful coiffure? Where a women's rights campaigner received 50 death and rape threats an hour for two days for the sin of saying what she thought? There are many cases of women "stepping back" from social media because of attacks such as these. And if they are investigated the culprits claim time and time again that it was "simply banter". Yes I know men are the victims of trolling, but not in the same volume and not with the same threats of sexual violence and certainly not because they chose to go on TV with no lippy! You've clearly never read the forums or been in the cam rooms then. This site is a strange arena where any woman possessing the basic anatomy of a female s showered with delusion ridden priase, regardless of the size/looks/cleanliness/class of the person. It's the literal opposite of the OP's man hating shite." That may well be the case, but what's that got to do with anything else? Most women would prefer to get rid of all the bullshit on here if there was an opportunity for other women not to experience rape threats on other sites. | |||
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"I've just finished reading a book which draws attention to the way that women are treated on all forms of social media. Why is it that otherwise perfectly rational men who would never say these things to a woman face to face feel free to come out with threats of violence and abuse and death threats against women who have taken the time out to speak out on a subject - generally a subject which they are qualified to speak about through experience or research. How have we come to a society where a well-reknowned and respected academic gets trolled and sent threats of rape for the crime of taking to national television equipped only with a deep knowledge and enthusiasm for her subject and without makeup and careful coiffure? Where a women's rights campaigner received 50 death and rape threats an hour for two days for the sin of saying what she thought? There are many cases of women "stepping back" from social media because of attacks such as these. And if they are investigated the culprits claim time and time again that it was "simply banter". Yes I know men are the victims of trolling, but not in the same volume and not with the same threats of sexual violence and certainly not because they chose to go on TV with no lippy! You've clearly never read the forums or been in the cam rooms then. This site is a strange arena where any woman possessing the basic anatomy of a female s showered with delusion ridden priase, regardless of the size/looks/cleanliness/class of the person. It's the literal opposite of the OP's man hating shite." Firstly I don't believe that the OP 'hates men'. In fact I believe she does rather like men. Secondly, I don't think that anyone is suggesting for a moment that his site isn't atypical compared to much social media. Although I've had a few very graphic threats of violent sexual assault here too. I wonder how many messages like that men receive here from women? | |||
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" It's the literal opposite of the OP's man hating shite." Plus - "man hating shite"? Howay. | |||
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"Women are just spiteful horrible creatures , who probably get what they deserve Is it 1 million children in this country going up fatherless owing to the outdated court system that favours women that emotionally blackmail their children into not liking their dad,. My kid was offered £5-00. Ice cream on next occasion ( in front of carcass) And then go gos to say he didn't want to see me It's not a one off , 1 million other children are in tang position Until women treat us men better after break ups , where our kids are concerned . Expect to be on the receiving end " Why did you get such a horrible creature pregnant then and perpetuate the misery? Should have kept it wrapped. | |||
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"Women are just spiteful horrible creatures , who probably get what they deserve Is it 1 million children in this country going up fatherless owing to the outdated court system that favours women that emotionally blackmail their children into not liking their dad,. My kid was offered £5-00. Ice cream on next occasion ( in front of carcass) And then go gos to say he didn't want to see me It's not a one off , 1 million other children are in tang position Until women treat us men better after break ups , where our kids are concerned . Expect to be on the receiving end " You sound like Elliot Rodger who massacred women because he couldn't get laid. He said that the women had treated him badly and therefore deserved it. | |||
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"Expect to be on the receiving end " I also find it unbelievable that you have a partner - according to your partner here. Do you verbally abuse her at regular inter_iews because your ex wasn't very nice to you? How does she feel about that? | |||
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"Women are just spiteful horrible creatures , who probably get what they deserve Is it 1 million children in this country going up fatherless owing to the outdated court system that favours women that emotionally blackmail their children into not liking their dad,. My kid was offered £5-00. Ice cream on next occasion ( in front of carcass) And then go gos to say he didn't want to see me It's not a one off , 1 million other children are in tang position Until women treat us men better after break ups , where our kids are concerned . Expect to be on the receiving end " I think people should get a sense of proportion. The OP says nowhere that all men abuse all women, yet there is abuse. On here, on other forums, in the press, on TV. You don't have to hit people to abuse them either. Most domestic abuse is emotional or mental. So blaming all women for your problems is a bit off IMO. Me and my ex split up amicably, and he had a full relationship with our daughter afterwards. the fact he spent most of their time together steaming d*unk can't be laid at my door. But the post I quoted shows the deep abiding bitterness that a lot of men feel about women. Its quite scary, because it is hidden well. | |||
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"I think the phenomenon of tribal groupings rounding up on loose canons in an anonymous setting where its all just a funny game to them... is where the real problem lies... and not specifically a women-focussed thing. Obviously there may be statistics that show women bare the brunt... but the actual behaviour itself, en masse, is where the problem is. I was only talking the other day with friends about how, if I wasn't so sure about my information, that on some discussions in forums I would've been convinced I was wrong by just the sheer number of people adamant I was. The worry is that people who are really quite clever and thoughtful are getting disuaded from pursuing original lines of thought because they can too easily come into contact with vast swathes of people who will willingly rubbish and quite vindictively attack ideas, and the people who voice them, they don't like. I worry that this and all the other things discussed in this thread are threatening to ruin the initial promise of what the internet offered us... instead of giving us a new global mindset and tolerance... giving us a form of intellectual tribalism where the loudest idea and the most vicious voice wins. Troubling stuff imo "I agree, but one of the points raised by the OP is the prevalence of threats of sexual violence against women for no more reason that they might be expert in a field that men consider male. I've been on forums and been ganged up on, but at no point were there rape threats. You can attack ideas without being vile toward the person who posted them. | |||
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"I think the phenomenon of tribal groupings rounding up on loose canons in an anonymous setting where its all just a funny game to them... is where the real problem lies... and not specifically a women-focussed thing. Obviously there may be statistics that show women bare the brunt... but the actual behaviour itself, en masse, is where the problem is. I was only talking the other day with friends about how, if I wasn't so sure about my information, that on some discussions in forums I would've been convinced I was wrong by just the sheer number of people adamant I was. The worry is that people who are really quite clever and thoughtful are getting disuaded from pursuing original lines of thought because they can too easily come into contact with vast swathes of people who will willingly rubbish and quite vindictively attack ideas, and the people who voice them, they don't like. I worry that this and all the other things discussed in this thread are threatening to ruin the initial promise of what the internet offered us... instead of giving us a new global mindset and tolerance... giving us a form of intellectual tribalism where the loudest idea and the most vicious voice wins. Troubling stuff imo
I agree, but one of the points raised by the OP is the prevalence of threats of sexual violence against women for no more reason that they might be expert in a field that men consider male. I've been on forums and been ganged up on, but at no point were there rape threats.
You can attack ideas without being vile toward the person who posted them. " | |||
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"on these forums, women are wished dead.... by men and women their sins, being a celebrity" Want my autograph?  | |||
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"on these forums, women are wished dead.... by men and women their sins, being a celebrity Want my autograph? " | |||
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"Women are just spiteful horrible creatures , who probably get what they deserve Is it 1 million children in this country going up fatherless owing to the outdated court system that favours women that emotionally blackmail their children into not liking their dad,. My kid was offered £5-00. Ice cream on next occasion ( in front of carcass) And then go gos to say he didn't want to see me It's not a one off , 1 million other children are in tang position Until women treat us men better after break ups , where our kids are concerned . Expect to be on the receiving end " When i split up with my abusive ex he took me to court for not letting him see his son (he'd keep saying he'd come for him then not turn up so i stopped staying in waiting for him to turn up). He wanted 3 visits a week, and coz it was a legal document i agreed and said so long as he turned up i'm fine with that. He never turned up, was just trying to control my life using the courts. The 2nd time he did this they dismissed his wishes, he never tried again. He did somehow get social services to ask me to pay him £15 a week to see his own kids, haha laughable and i can't even see how SS thought this was acceptable, i wasn't paying for his alcohol. He has paid 0 for his kids ever. The oldest is 18, his youngest is 15. Sorry but the system also favours men walking out on their kids as well ad there's nothing anyone can do about it unless the guy offers to pay for his kids willingly and then these guys end up paying more and more just because they will. | |||
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"Women are just spiteful horrible creatures , who probably get what they deserve Is it 1 million children in this country going up fatherless owing to the outdated court system that favours women that emotionally blackmail their children into not liking their dad,. My kid was offered £5-00. Ice cream on next occasion ( in front of carcass) And then go gos to say he didn't want to see me It's not a one off , 1 million other children are in tang position Until women treat us men better after break ups , where our kids are concerned . Expect to be on the receiving end " Yes, because all women are to blame for the actions of some!! And you can bet that some of that million poor hard done to fathers are actual useless pricks who lie about how hard done to they are when in reality they make no effort at all to see their kids even when theyve been given every opportunity!! I can vouch for that myself! | |||
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"I think the phenomenon of tribal groupings rounding up on loose canons in an anonymous setting where its all just a funny game to them... is where the real problem lies... and not specifically a women-focussed thing. Obviously there may be statistics that show women bare the brunt... but the actual behaviour itself, en masse, is where the problem is." You are quite right, I believe. The problem is that women are not in these 'tribal groupings' so they are the loose canons and outsiders. For instance business, tech, gaming, sports, they have all been traditionally male-dominated activities, and so women who try to break into those areas end up on the end of the abuse. | |||
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"I think those comments just confirm my theory as to why women get such a hard time on websites . You just can't wait to have a dig , and deliberately do the best that you can to inflame a situation , " So you don't think all women are vile, you were just trying to goad some into behaving in a way that means they deserve to be raped? | |||
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"I've just finished reading a book which draws attention to the way that women are treated on all forms of social media. Why is it that otherwise perfectly rational men who would never say these things to a woman face to face feel free to come out with threats of violence and abuse and death threats against women who have taken the time out to speak out on a subject - generally a subject which they are qualified to speak about through experience or research. How have we come to a society where a well-reknowned and respected academic gets trolled and sent threats of rape for the crime of taking to national television equipped only with a deep knowledge and enthusiasm for her subject and without makeup and careful coiffure? Where a women's rights campaigner received 50 death and rape threats an hour for two days for the sin of saying what she thought? There are many cases of women "stepping back" from social media because of attacks such as these. And if they are investigated the culprits claim time and time again that it was "simply banter". Yes I know men are the victims of trolling, but not in the same volume and not with the same threats of sexual violence and certainly not because they chose to go on TV with no lippy! " The same wankers treat men in a similar fashion. They simply tailor their threats or insults depending on the audience. It is grossly unsavoury and people who act like that ought to be ashamed. However dressing it up as a sexism issue is entirely missing the cause and the point. These abusive people are being abusive to anyone because they are able to hide behind Internet anonymity. Their choice of threat is based on whoever they are abusing but they are not doing the abusing just because the persons is necessarily one sex or another. They are doing it because it makes them feel big. Men suffer in the same way. Trust me on that. | |||
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"I've just finished reading a book which draws attention to the way that women are treated on all forms of social media. Why is it that otherwise perfectly rational men who would never say these things to a woman face to face feel free to come out with threats of violence and abuse and death threats against women who have taken the time out to speak out on a subject - generally a subject which they are qualified to speak about through experience or research. How have we come to a society where a well-reknowned and respected academic gets trolled and sent threats of rape for the crime of taking to national television equipped only with a deep knowledge and enthusiasm for her subject and without makeup and careful coiffure? Where a women's rights campaigner received 50 death and rape threats an hour for two days for the sin of saying what she thought? There are many cases of women "stepping back" from social media because of attacks such as these. And if they are investigated the culprits claim time and time again that it was "simply banter". Yes I know men are the victims of trolling, but not in the same volume and not with the same threats of sexual violence and certainly not because they chose to go on TV with no lippy! The same wankers treat men in a similar fashion. They simply tailor their threats or insults depending on the audience. It is grossly unsavoury and people who act like that ought to be ashamed. However dressing it up as a sexism issue is entirely missing the cause and the point. These abusive people are being abusive to anyone because they are able to hide behind Internet anonymity. Their choice of threat is based on whoever they are abusing but they are not doing the abusing just because the persons is necessarily one sex or another. They are doing it because it makes them feel big. Men suffer in the same way. Trust me on that. " The very nature of sexual violence and threats of sexual violence make it difficult for all but a few men who have been subjected to it to grasp how it feels. Yes men suffer from trolling and threats and it is not acceptable no matter who it is directed at. But to say it's the same is disingenuous. | |||
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"I've just finished reading a book which draws attention to the way that women are treated on all forms of social media. Why is it that otherwise perfectly rational men who would never say these things to a woman face to face feel free to come out with threats of violence and abuse and death threats against women who have taken the time out to speak out on a subject - generally a subject which they are qualified to speak about through experience or research. How have we come to a society where a well-reknowned and respected academic gets trolled and sent threats of rape for the crime of taking to national television equipped only with a deep knowledge and enthusiasm for her subject and without makeup and careful coiffure? Where a women's rights campaigner received 50 death and rape threats an hour for two days for the sin of saying what she thought? There are many cases of women "stepping back" from social media because of attacks such as these. And if they are investigated the culprits claim time and time again that it was "simply banter". Yes I know men are the victims of trolling, but not in the same volume and not with the same threats of sexual violence and certainly not because they chose to go on TV with no lippy! The same wankers treat men in a similar fashion. They simply tailor their threats or insults depending on the audience. It is grossly unsavoury and people who act like that ought to be ashamed. However dressing it up as a sexism issue is entirely missing the cause and the point. These abusive people are being abusive to anyone because they are able to hide behind Internet anonymity. Their choice of threat is based on whoever they are abusing but they are not doing the abusing just because the persons is necessarily one sex or another. They are doing it because it makes them feel big. Men suffer in the same way. Trust me on that. The very nature of sexual violence and threats of sexual violence make it difficult for all but a few men who have been subjected to it to grasp how it feels. Yes men suffer from trolling and threats and it is not acceptable no matter who it is directed at. But to say it's the same is disingenuous." Sexual threats are unsavoury no matter what sex you are. That is not denied or disputed. My point was not that. My point was that the motivation behind the impulse to be abusive is of the same origin. Scarcely do people decide only to abuse one particular demographic. Obviously some do because some people are like that. But there is a great propensity to see sexism as a motive where simple cuntery is the motive. If we keep misdiagnosing motives we will never cure the problem. However there are a tract of people who need sexism to be the motive as frequently as possible to help maintain their own little empire and raison detre. | |||
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"Actually the treatment of the academic Tim Hunt over what was really a poor taste joke, much more innocent than any typical stand-up comedy ended in him losing his job. It mirrors perfectly with the opening post, only there were real ramifications for him - not just threats." You're missing out the fact that Tim Hunt didn't make a joke, he made a comment that he stood behind. He believed that women were a distraction in labs. If I was a man, I'd be very upset at Hunt for suggesting that I was incapable of controlling myself and concentrating while in the presence of a woman. But congratulations on finding one borderline case against the hundreds of well known cases of women being subjected to threats of sexual violence by organised groups of 'maninazis' (or meninists as the organized groups tend to call themselves.) | |||
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"I guess one of the problems at the core of feminism is this whole idea that, as a woman, you introduce yourself as a woman as if it was a key identifying trait... "hi I'm a woman and proud of it". Blokes don't do this for two reasons... firstly it just sounds mysoginist, so when women do it they can't help but interpret it similarly... and secondly they don't need to describe who they are as they are the norm against which all difference is measured. Of course this is rubbish... but it is worth thinking about. Women need to describe themselves because they are not men. Thus the very intention of the whole excercise appears patriarchal. Why shouldn't it be men's job to identify how they are different from women? Probably, ultimately, we're all better off thinking of ourselves as humans, and trying to look past all our differences, be they ethnic, gender, sexual, or whatever. Sorry if this post sounds confused or upsetting... its just my rambling brain... no fixed dogma here... just a series of half-baked thoughts about gender identity issues "I don't introduce myself as a woman. I don't say I'm a female gamer, or a female scholar, or a female writer. But I've been told multiple times that I'm less capable because I'm a woman. (In fact I'm struggling to think of a single time that someone has introduced themselves as a female-something in a serious context. However the media and guys often add that label. Female footballer. Female academic. Female gamer.) | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?"Sorry TD, but it was sexist. Your second paragraph clearly asks why men do it, thereby attributing the problem to men vs women. Whereas: A 2014 study titled Misogyny on Twitter by London-based think tank Demos revealed that women are nearly as likely as men to use the words "slut" and "whore" on Twitter. The study narrowed in on tweets that contained the words “rape,” “slut,” and “whore,” from Twitter accounts in the United Kingdom, between December 2013 to February 2014. The researchers found that “rape” was the most frequently used word, appearing around 100,000 times in that two-month span. Broken down by gender, the use of “rape” was similar for Twitter users. For example, on January 6, 2014, about 1,250 men mentioned “rape” in tweets, while roughly 1,150 women used it as well. For instances of “slut” and “whore,” the study’s graph reveals that men and women used those terms equally as often with women some times surpassing men in their abuse. “Not only are women using these words,” the researchers wrote, “they are directing them at each other, both casually and offensively.” Clearly shows this shouldn't be discussed as a "why do men do this" issue. Mr ddc | |||
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"I'm intrigued. Where in my opening post do I state that I'm a feminist? And where do I blame sexism? I am asking what has happened to our society to produce this particular type of trolling?" You didn't - but you and the book you read framed it as if only men use their keyboards as a weapon. The fact that such a book is written speaks volumes. Without googling I'd hazard a guess that the author is a staunch feminist. | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
Sorry TD, but it was sexist. Your second paragraph clearly asks why men do it, thereby attributing the problem to men vs women.
Whereas:
A 2014 study titled Misogyny on Twitter by London-based think tank Demos revealed that women are nearly as likely as men to use the words "slut" and "whore" on Twitter. The study narrowed in on tweets that contained the words “rape,” “slut,” and “whore,” from Twitter accounts in the United Kingdom, between December 2013 to February 2014. The researchers found that “rape” was the most frequently used word, appearing around 100,000 times in that two-month span. Broken down by gender, the use of “rape” was similar for Twitter users. For example, on January 6, 2014, about 1,250 men mentioned “rape” in tweets, while roughly 1,150 women used it as well. For instances of “slut” and “whore,” the study’s graph reveals that men and women used those terms equally as often with women some times surpassing men in their abuse. “Not only are women using these words,” the researchers wrote, “they are directing them at each other, both casually and offensively.”
Clearly shows this shouldn't be discussed as a "why do men do this" issue.
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" You're missing out the fact that Tim Hunt didn't make a joke, he made a comment that he stood behind. He believed that women were a distraction in labs. " His wife is a renowned scientist herself who also suffered career wise - to add a little perspective. His inter_iew in the guardian was apologetic and he didn't stand behind his own "jocular" comment". Scientists don't retract their held beliefs usually. I know nothing about these groups of men, they probably exist, I don't know but that doesn't affect my argument. I was pointing out that it works both ways. Which the OP failed to do when she framed it as a problem only men are guilty of. | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
Sorry TD, but it was sexist. Your second paragraph clearly asks why men do it, thereby attributing the problem to men vs women.
Whereas:
A 2014 study titled Misogyny on Twitter by London-based think tank Demos revealed that women are nearly as likely as men to use the words "slut" and "whore" on Twitter. The study narrowed in on tweets that contained the words “rape,” “slut,” and “whore,” from Twitter accounts in the United Kingdom, between December 2013 to February 2014. The researchers found that “rape” was the most frequently used word, appearing around 100,000 times in that two-month span. Broken down by gender, the use of “rape” was similar for Twitter users. For example, on January 6, 2014, about 1,250 men mentioned “rape” in tweets, while roughly 1,150 women used it as well. For instances of “slut” and “whore,” the study’s graph reveals that men and women used those terms equally as often with women some times surpassing men in their abuse. “Not only are women using these words,” the researchers wrote, “they are directing them at each other, both casually and offensively.”
Clearly shows this shouldn't be discussed as a "why do men do this" issue.
Mr ddc"It's not the word that is the problem. For instance that study would also contain all tweets talking about things like slutwalk, reclaiming the night, and generally about how using words like slut and whore are products of rape culture. Women on social media talk about these things quite a bit, in order to talk about issues and reclaim words - so *of course* they will come up high in the statistics. All of my rape threats on social media have been done via private message, where they wouldn't show up in any studies. | |||
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"Off topic, but I'm astounded, I really am by all this talk of rape in the media - scaremongering I feel - so I did something interesting. Google trends - rape - since 2004 to present. A significant leap from 2013 onwards. I don't know how to normalise for the number of people using the internet/google but it's indicative at least. Has deviant human behaviour taken a leap forward? Is there an epidemic of sexual violence compared to pre 2013?" I'm not sure there has been, but some progress may have been made in encouraging reporting. Or it could just be an anomalous result, it would be too soon to see a trend. | |||
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" It's not the word that is the problem. For instance that study would also contain all tweets talking about things like slutwalk, reclaiming the night, and generally about how using words like slut and whore are products of rape culture. Women on social media talk about these things quite a bit, in order to talk about issues and reclaim words - so *of course* they will come up high in the statistics. All of my rape threats on social media have been done via private message, where they wouldn't show up in any studies." I didn't say it was, just pointing out the fact that this shouldn't be treated as a man vs woman issue. I didn't see from the quote I gave that it was okay when women used the term because it was probably just banter or serious discussion. The impression I got was that it was all offensive. Didn't that bloke who was prosecuted over the new pound notes turn out to be a woman using a man's profile? | |||
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"But people don't report crimes on google. It's a clear step change if anyone wants to look for themselves. " Ah sorry, misunderstood. | |||
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" just pointing out the fact that this shouldn't be treated as a man vs woman issue." It largely is though. I have a large amount of friends who are academics. It's largely agreed that speaking out on the subject of women's issues, or being a woman speaking in a male dominated field, is quite likely to get you threatened with sexual violence. IIRC, all of my academic friends working in some kind male sphere have had language containing sexual violence directed at them on social media. The men working in the same fields? None. Not one. I also do *alot* of gaming. If people find out I am a woman, I get sexual insults and threats directed at me. The amount of these threats that my male friends have had while gaming? None. Studies keep backing this up. This is largely an issue of threats being directed towards women. The problem is in some areas - such as gaming which I am involved in - that casual misogyny is normal. Sexual violence against women in games is normal. Booth babes prized for their assets and nothing else are normal. How can you expect these guys to treat women with respect when their whole culture says that women are not there to be respected? | |||
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"Off topic, but I'm astounded, I really am by all this talk of rape in the media - scaremongering I feel - so I did something interesting. Google trends - rape - since 2004 to present. A significant leap from 2013 onwards. I don't know how to normalise for the number of people using the internet/google but it's indicative at least. Has deviant human behaviour taken a leap forward? Is there an epidemic of sexual violence compared to pre 2013?" Ok my revised answer, now I've read the post properly. Think of some big news stories of the past few years which have been subject to a lot of media commentary - particularly the child abuse scandals, Jimmy Savile et al, and I can see why the word rape would be getting more of a mention. Throw in a couple more stories which a huge number of people wanted to have their say about - Ched Evans, the Delhi bus gang rape. | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
I was hoping he was saying it tongue in cheek..if not he maybe needs to think before pressing enter
I was hoping to keep this a genuine discussion without the flippant "humour" which creeps in and is often a precursor to some of the more extreme behaviour I'm actually talking about. I considered putting a request to that effect but struggled to phrase it and also thought that I was underestimating the forumites."I appreciate you are trying to make a serious point but you are on a sex site where every other pic that shows with a point of _iew is a sexy female bum a pussy or a cock ,where most guys first message to a woman is would you like to suck on this ,you can't be naive enough to believe that every person that enters your thread will take it seriously ,humour surely is part and parcel of this life ,the internet / messaging allows people to say many things that they wouldn't have the guts to in person ,people who put themselves in the public eye leave themselves open to a lot of unreasonable criticism | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
I was hoping he was saying it tongue in cheek..if not he maybe needs to think before pressing enter
I was hoping to keep this a genuine discussion without the flippant "humour" which creeps in and is often a precursor to some of the more extreme behaviour I'm actually talking about. I considered putting a request to that effect but struggled to phrase it and also thought that I was underestimating the forumites.I appreciate you are trying to make a serious point but you are on a sex site where every other pic that shows with a point of _iew is a sexy female bum a pussy or a cock ,where most guys first message to a woman is would you like to suck on this ,you can't be naive enough to believe that every person that enters your thread will take it seriously ,humour surely is part and parcel of this life ,the internet / messaging allows people to say many things that they wouldn't have the guts to in person ,people who put themselves in the public eye leave themselves open to a lot of unreasonable criticism "They do. Doesn't make it alright though! | |||
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"Off topic, but I'm astounded, I really am by all this talk of rape in the media - scaremongering I feel - so I did something interesting. Google trends - rape - since 2004 to present. A significant leap from 2013 onwards. I don't know how to normalise for the number of people using the internet/google but it's indicative at least. Has deviant human behaviour taken a leap forward? Is there an epidemic of sexual violence compared to pre 2013? Ok my revised answer, now I've read the post properly. Think of some big news stories of the past few years which have been subject to a lot of media commentary - particularly the child abuse scandals, Jimmy Savile et al, and I can see why the word rape would be getting more of a mention. Throw in a couple more stories which a huge number of people wanted to have their say about - Ched Evans, the Delhi bus gang rape. " They generally create a big peak in the data, steep rise and steep fall. I don't know to be honest but I'd love to see good data on instances of rape vs. discussion of it as a subject. Coincidence or not, two books were released last week or thereabouts both with the title "asking for it". Louise O'Neill and Kate Hudson. One fiction, one not. Hudson's book focuses on the "alarming rise of rape culture" but is there an alarming rise of actual rape? O'Neill's book "I wanted the reader to finish this book and be absolutely furious” | |||
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Obviously that's all nice and well... but whilst there is still a prevalence of men in positions of power who refuse to give women a chance and promote them... well it's a bit like promoting racial equality without letting anyone but whites rule... | |||
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"mpoole i agree and disagree. You shot yourself in the foot with your last paragraph." lol don't worry I had noticed
"Certainly, let this stuff fade in the past, there is very little to fight about or fight for on this topic in the western world. All my female friends and colleagues are _iewed as peers and enjoy the same successes and opportunities as male friends and colleagues. Very analogous to the theme of 1st world problems. Nobody gets upset about the male monopoly on being a binman and things like gender pay gaps are well debunked if you look at data and findings objectively, and look around you at how society works." As my shooting myself in the foot demonstrated.. I can see both sides of this one... so I guess you'd call me either confused or more nuanced in my _iews. I do think there is a problem, and even on this thread I think that women's voices haven't entirely been heard, which is often all that women want. But not being a woman myself I guess I see it in a more complex expansive way... as being just one of the many inequalities that beset this Earth and which we should all strive to address in some way or another | |||
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"Women's voices are heard all too often More women builders, MPs doctors in fact more women everywhere They want women in the forces. Police security mechanics constantly. Trying to get the way into every male orientated job Do you hear men sAying More men hairdresser , nurses , midwives , carers , childminders , shop workers etc etc Then the women's pottery group , swimming , Zumba men are not allowed at all As soon as men say lets have men only thing like scouts women force their way in saying its sexist Then stupid rules come in like assisted lift on boxes over 20 kilos I would rather have a man only job any day of the week and hate working with noodle armed pansies and women Call me a cave man sexist bigot anything you like I don't care and why is that because I am a man and it does not bother me "
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"Women's voices are heard all too often More women builders, MPs doctors in fact more women everywhere They want women in the forces. Police security mechanics constantly. Trying to get the way into every male orientated job Do you hear men sAying More men hairdresser , nurses , midwives , carers , childminders , shop workers etc etc Then the women's pottery group , swimming , Zumba men are not allowed at all As soon as men say lets have men only thing like scouts women force their way in saying its sexist Then stupid rules come in like assisted lift on boxes over 20 kilos I would rather have a man only job any day of the week and hate working with noodle armed pansies and women Call me a cave man sexist bigot anything you like I don't care and why is that because I am a man and it does not bother me " Equal opportunities tut what a stupid idea . I know what your saying though.. | |||
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"mpoole i agree and disagree. You shot yourself in the foot with your last paragraph. lol don't worry I had noticed
Certainly, let this stuff fade in the past, there is very little to fight about or fight for on this topic in the western world. All my female friends and colleagues are _iewed as peers and enjoy the same successes and opportunities as male friends and colleagues.
Very analogous to the theme of 1st world problems.
Nobody gets upset about the male monopoly on being a binman and things like gender pay gaps are well debunked if you look at data and findings objectively, and look around you at how society works.
As my shooting myself in the foot demonstrated.. I can see both sides of this one... so I guess you'd call me either confused or more nuanced in my _iews. I do think there is a problem, and even on this thread I think that women's voices haven't entirely been heard, which is often all that women want. But not being a woman myself I guess I see it in a more complex expansive way... as being just one of the many inequalities that beset this Earth and which we should all strive to address in some way or another "There have been instances on this very thread where you yourself haven't seemed to be hearing women's voices and have been talking over them... it's hard to give everyone a space when learned behavior is so ingrained. This is the uphill battle in the west.
(And no, to the poster above, I still don't have equal employment opportunities in the West. And quite frankly, we still have a long way to go when it comes to treating women the same as men - as evidenced by the fact I'm likely to get sexual violence threatened by correcting a man on social media on some subjects) | |||
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"For those of you trying to form a reasoned argument, can't you see that you can't educate or reason with such drivel as: "hate working with noodle armed pansies and women". But that's allowed because he's a man and men are apparently allowed to be bigoted, uneducated and vile. " Oh and to the person who posted the point about zumba and scouts, you started to make what could have been framed as a reasonable point until the hate came out. | |||
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"I'm likely to get sexual violence threatened by correcting a man on social media on some subjects)" I must say that being a internet user since 1995 I have never seen any women threatened in that way I have also never heard of that type of abuse By men on any forum and I have never heard any man use that type of wording in the street I reckon it's feminazi scare mongering to further repress men | |||
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"I'm likely to get sexual violence threatened by correcting a man on social media on some subjects) I must say that being a internet user since 1995 I have never seen any women threatened in that way I have also never heard of that type of abuse By men on any forum and I have never heard any man use that type of wording in the street " I'm glad that you've never had to suffer from such words. It must be nice to not have to worry about that kind of thing. (I got the internet and found my way onto usenet when I was 9 in 1994, if you want to have a pissing contest.) | |||
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"I'm likely to get sexual violence threatened by correcting a man on social media on some subjects) I must say that being a internet user since 1995 I have never seen any women threatened in that way I have also never heard of that type of abuse By men on any forum and I have never heard any man use that type of wording in the street I reckon it's feminazi scare mongering to further repress men " I doubt you've ever seen a rape take place either. Does that mean rape is feminazi scaremongering too? | |||
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"I'm likely to get sexual violence threatened by correcting a man on social media on some subjects) I must say that being a internet user since 1995 I have never seen any women threatened in that way I have also never heard of that type of abuse By men on any forum and I have never heard any man use that type of wording in the street I reckon it's feminazi scare mongering to further repress men " Really? You never played xbox games online? Christ, you even hear that kind of language and sentiment from school yards. To counterpoint some of the female arguments; obviously most of what you say is from experience, but what I see quite a lot is confirmation bias: you see something which backs up your thoughts and it's added to the examples. Take the gym for example: a female goes into a gym, and the main section feels unwelcoming because of the massive men lifting heavy things (and then putting them back down). Confirmation bias means this can be seen as anti-women, and women get female only sessions. Okay, well it's not anti-female; it's anti-everyone-who-isnt-massive (well it's not really, if you actually go and talk to the big fellas, I suppose)... But, will I get a skinny bloke only session? Of course not. And that there is something many women simply can't see. Not everything that is difficult for a female to get involved with is anti-women; because it's probably difficult for many men to get involved with too. | |||
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"I'm likely to get sexual violence threatened by correcting a man on social media on some subjects) I must say that being a internet user since 1995 I have never seen any women threatened in that way I have also never heard of that type of abuse By men on any forum and I have never heard any man use that type of wording in the street I reckon it's feminazi scare mongering to further repress men Really? You never played xbox games online? Christ, you even hear that kind of language and sentiment from school yards. To counterpoint some of the female arguments; obviously most of what you say is from experience, but what I see quite a lot is confirmation bias: you see something which backs up your thoughts and it's added to the examples. Take the gym for example: a female goes into a gym, and the main section feels unwelcoming because of the massive men lifting heavy things (and then putting them back down). Confirmation bias means this can be seen as anti-women, and women get female only sessions. Okay, well it's not anti-female; it's anti-everyone-who-isnt-massive (well it's not really, if you actually go and talk to the big fellas, I suppose)... But, will I get a skinny bloke only session? Of course not. And that there is something many women simply can't see. Not everything that is difficult for a female to get involved with is anti-women; because it's probably difficult for many men to get involved with too." FWIW when writing my thesis last year I actively tried to seek out genuine threats of men receiving sexual threats from women. I found some being made from other men towards men, but I couldn't find an example of them being made by women towards men. | |||
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"Oh and to the person who posted the point about zumba and scouts, you started to make what could have been framed as a reasonable point until the hate came out. " Not really, Scouts decided to allow girls as a positive decision - they were not forced. Some people think segregating young children isn't a particularly good way of combating sexism. | |||
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"FWIW when writing my thesis last year I actively tried to seek out genuine threats of men receiving sexual threats from women. I found some being made from other men towards men, but I couldn't find an example of them being made by women towards men." Oh I quite agree that the sexually violent language from some males (not saying "men" because I've heard this from children in school yards and on xbox) against females seems to be almost a unique phenomenon. My point was the conformation bias which results in the misappropriation of some stuff which isn't just unfair to women, but unfair to many people. | |||
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"Oh and to the person who posted the point about zumba and scouts, you started to make what could have been framed as a reasonable point until the hate came out. Not really, Scouts decided to allow girls as a positive decision - they were not forced. Some people think segregating young children isn't a particularly good way of combating sexism. " I agree about segregation. So why can't boys join guides? (or at least they couldn't as of 3 years ago) | |||
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"FWIW when writing my thesis last year I actively tried to seek out genuine threats of men receiving sexual threats from women. I found some being made from other men towards men, but I couldn't find an example of them being made by women towards men. Oh I quite agree that the sexually violent language from some males (not saying "men" because I've heard this from children in school yards and on xbox) against females seems to be almost a unique phenomenon. My point was the conformation bias which results in the misappropriation of some stuff which isn't just unfair to women, but unfair to many people. " RE your weights example - I used to do powerlifting comps and teach strongman classes when I was in my early 20s. I now won't go to the gym because there isn't one around here that is female friendly. I've tried them all and in all of them I've been leered over or asked inappropriate questions for the gym environment. I may well be seeing things that aren't there - that might happen to guys too. But for me that kind of environment means that I had to give up a hobby I really loved, because I couldn't find a gym to train in. It does happen. | |||
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"Oh and to the person who posted the point about zumba and scouts, you started to make what could have been framed as a reasonable point until the hate came out. Not really, Scouts decided to allow girls as a positive decision - they were not forced. Some people think segregating young children isn't a particularly good way of combating sexism. I agree about segregation. So why can't boys join guides? (or at least they couldn't as of 3 years ago) " Look at girl guides debate on the BBC newsround site (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/20356642) the comments are really interesting. | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine
Was that an attempt to be witty or do you genuinely find my post sexist?
I was hoping he was saying it tongue in cheek..if not he maybe needs to think before pressing enter
I was hoping to keep this a genuine discussion without the flippant "humour" which creeps in and is often a precursor to some of the more extreme behaviour I'm actually talking about. I considered putting a request to that effect but struggled to phrase it and also thought that I was underestimating the forumites.I appreciate you are trying to make a serious point but you are on a sex site where every other pic that shows with a point of _iew is a sexy female bum a pussy or a cock ,where most guys first message to a woman is would you like to suck on this ,you can't be naive enough to believe that every person that enters your thread will take it seriously ,humour surely is part and parcel of this life ,the internet / messaging allows people to say many things that they wouldn't have the guts to in person ,people who put themselves in the public eye leave themselves open to a lot of unreasonable criticism
They do. Doesn't make it alright though!"true but its a fact of life eg you not meeting or fancying a guy on here or wanting to chat ,you know it exists so you live with it was all I was saying x | |||
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"Oh and to the person who posted the point about zumba and scouts, you started to make what could have been framed as a reasonable point until the hate came out. Not really, Scouts decided to allow girls as a positive decision - they were not forced. Some people think segregating young children isn't a particularly good way of combating sexism. I agree about segregation. So why can't boys join guides? (or at least they couldn't as of 3 years ago) " Because the girl guides came about when they weren't allowed to join the boy scouts. Seems silly to let boys in when they already have their own group first. Plus the boys group has girls in it now so they're not missing out. Idk really, am bored. | |||
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"FWIW when writing my thesis last year I actively tried to seek out genuine threats of men receiving sexual threats from women. I found some being made from other men towards men, but I couldn't find an example of them being made by women towards men. Oh I quite agree that the sexually violent language from some males (not saying "men" because I've heard this from children in school yards and on xbox) against females seems to be almost a unique phenomenon. My point was the conformation bias which results in the misappropriation of some stuff which isn't just unfair to women, but unfair to many people. RE your weights example - I used to do powerlifting comps and teach strongman classes when I was in my early 20s. I now won't go to the gym because there isn't one around here that is female friendly. I've tried them all and in all of them I've been leered over or asked inappropriate questions for the gym environment. I may well be seeing things that aren't there - that might happen to guys too. But for me that kind of environment means that I had to give up a hobby I really loved, because I couldn't find a gym to train in. It does happen." Again, I agree, with partially overlapping experience. I used to do a lot of leg weights as part of training. Now I don't because I can't find an area I feel comfortable with. Now in use the cardio section. | |||
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" I agree about segregation. So why can't boys join guides? (or at least they couldn't as of 3 years ago) " Don't know. Maybe women are sexist? 
{ducks head}
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"The issue is that we live in an extremely patriarchal society with clearly defined gender stereotyping. Misogyny and mansplaining is hilariously rife on this forum. Fuck the patriarchy!" Well said. Ignorance is one area that we can all agree Fab excels in. | |||
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"FWIW when writing my thesis last year I actively tried to seek out genuine threats of men receiving sexual threats from women. I found some being made from other men towards men, but I couldn't find an example of them being made by women towards men. Oh I quite agree that the sexually violent language from some males (not saying "men" because I've heard this from children in school yards and on xbox) against females seems to be almost a unique phenomenon. My point was the conformation bias which results in the misappropriation of some stuff which isn't just unfair to women, but unfair to many people. RE your weights example - I used to do powerlifting comps and teach strongman classes when I was in my early 20s. I now won't go to the gym because there isn't one around here that is female friendly. I've tried them all and in all of them I've been leered over or asked inappropriate questions for the gym environment. I may well be seeing things that aren't there - that might happen to guys too. But for me that kind of environment means that I had to give up a hobby I really loved, because I couldn't find a gym to train in. It does happen. Again, I agree, with partially overlapping experience. I used to do a lot of leg weights as part of training. Now I don't because I can't find an area I feel comfortable with. Now in use the cardio section. " Go to curves I know there is one in Banbury no men allowed | |||
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" Look at girl guides debate on the BBC newsround site (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/20356642) the comments are really interesting. " The bit about.the change.coming in 2007 is wrong. It started in 1976, but local groups could opt out (supposedly to avoid problems with mixed sleeping arrangements, but I suspect they didn't want to scare away the dinosaurs) In 2007 this option was finally removed (though some still 'get round it' by managing long waiting lists) | |||
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"FWIW when writing my thesis last year I actively tried to seek out genuine threats of men receiving sexual threats from women. I found some being made from other men towards men, but I couldn't find an example of them being made by women towards men. Oh I quite agree that the sexually violent language from some males (not saying "men" because I've heard this from children in school yards and on xbox) against females seems to be almost a unique phenomenon. My point was the conformation bias which results in the misappropriation of some stuff which isn't just unfair to women, but unfair to many people. RE your weights example - I used to do powerlifting comps and teach strongman classes when I was in my early 20s. I now won't go to the gym because there isn't one around here that is female friendly. I've tried them all and in all of them I've been leered over or asked inappropriate questions for the gym environment. I may well be seeing things that aren't there - that might happen to guys too. But for me that kind of environment means that I had to give up a hobby I really loved, because I couldn't find a gym to train in. It does happen. Again, I agree, with partially overlapping experience. I used to do a lot of leg weights as part of training. Now I don't because I can't find an area I feel comfortable with. Now in use the cardio section. Go to curves I know there is one in Banbury no men allowed " Erm, Curves aren't a gym. They're a 'fitness circuit' without weights. They don't really actually get you fit. I used to do powerlifting, which is basically picking up and putting down weights that are twice as heavy as me. | |||
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" I agree about segregation. So why can't boys join guides? (or at least they couldn't as of 3 years ago) Don't know. Maybe women are sexist?
{ducks head}
"Of course we can be! I've had my speech patterns challenged and adjusted them from debates on here. I also frequently wince and edge away from some women when I here them speak about "men"! (the quote marks are to denote the way people speak about a whole group of society as though they are all the same and all culpable. Something I'm considering if I've been guilty of on this thread) I'm an old fashioned feminist, one of the one's who believes feminism is about equality for all no matter what gender. And I will freely hold my hand up to having realised that I am on occasion sexist. Hopefully I'm getting less so but I'm a work in progress. | |||
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" I agree about segregation. So why can't boys join guides? (or at least they couldn't as of 3 years ago) Don't know. Maybe women are sexist?
{ducks head}
Of course we can be!
I've had my speech patterns challenged and adjusted them from debates on here. I also frequently wince and edge away from some women when I here them speak about "men"! (the quote marks are to denote the way people speak about a whole group of society as though they are all the same and all culpable. Something I'm considering if I've been guilty of on this thread)
I'm an old fashioned feminist, one of the one's who believes feminism is about equality for all no matter what gender. And I will freely hold my hand up to having realised that I am on occasion sexist. Hopefully I'm getting less so but I'm a work in progress."Yes, same here. I can be sexist, racist, homophobic, and transphobic on occasion. However I hope that when people point it out to me I work to be better, rather than ignoring the problem. | |||
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"I've just finished reading a book which draws attention to the way that women are treated on all forms of social media. Why is it that otherwise perfectly rational men who would never say these things to a woman face to face feel free to come out with threats of violence and abuse and death threats against women who have taken the time out to speak out on a subject - generally a subject which they are qualified to speak about through experience or research. How have we come to a society where a well-reknowned and respected academic gets trolled and sent threats of rape for the crime of taking to national television equipped only with a deep knowledge and enthusiasm for her subject and without makeup and careful coiffure? Where a women's rights campaigner received 50 death and rape threats an hour for two days for the sin of saying what she thought? There are many cases of women "stepping back" from social media because of attacks such as these. And if they are investigated the culprits claim time and time again that it was "simply banter". Yes I know men are the victims of trolling, but not in the same volume and not with the same threats of sexual violence and certainly not because they chose to go on TV with no lippy! " The problem is and this is not meant as an excuse in any way. A lot of people still think you can say/do anything you want on the Internet and it doesn't matter because it's not real life. Unfortunately it does have real implications | |||
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" I used to do powerlifting, which is basically picking up and putting down weights that are twice as heavy as me." Commercial gyms in southampton do not allow power lifting training or even heavy lifting a group went on to practice at my mates garage they use jcb tyre and gas bottles with concrete sand etc in them after being banned from every gym I know this guy personally It's probably how you were training that bought attention to yourself rather than a woman doing weights | |||
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" I used to do powerlifting, which is basically picking up and putting down weights that are twice as heavy as me. Commercial gyms in southampton do not allow power lifting training or even heavy lifting a group went on to practice at my mates garage they use jcb tyre and gas bottles with concrete sand etc in them after being banned from every gym I know this guy personally It's probably how you were training that bought attention to yourself rather than a woman doing weights " No. You are incorrect. Most commercial gyms have areas with free weights benches and squat cages which is what are used for powerlifting training. They also are full of (men) who lift up bars with weights on the end and put them back down again. What you are referring to is strongman training which is something entirely different, and not generally available in most chain gyms. | |||
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" I doubt you've ever seen a rape take place either. Does that mean rape is feminazi scaremongering too?" TD, do you care to address my comments in two posts above on actual rape vs. Talk about raping the feminist driven media? I get that the sense that most of what was there to be done has already been done in the 70's, 80's and 90's and was great work by feminists at the day. Modern feminism seems redundant to me and new causes need to be invented to sell books and keep what gas become an industry in itself going. | |||
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" I doubt you've ever seen a rape take place either. Does that mean rape is feminazi scaremongering too? TD, do you care to address my comments in two posts above on actual rape vs. Talk about raping the feminist driven media? I get that the sense that most of what was there to be done has already been done in the 70's, 80's and 90's and was great work by feminists at the day. Modern feminism seems redundant to me and new causes need to be invented to sell books and keep what gas become an industry in itself going. " See comment above where a man is explaining to me that I am wrong about something that he knows nothing about which used to be my job and my hobby. There is much more work required for the cause of equal treatment of women. It's just much more subtle now. | |||
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"Wasp Hunter Can you show clearly how you don't have the same opportunities as men? An argument rather than an assertion. Be mindful of your own bias. " I mostly have the same opportunities as men - on paper. However it is very difficult as a woman to often occupy spaces which should theoretically be open to me. For instance when going for job inter_iews a couple of years ago, it was routine to be asked if I had children. When I answered no I was always asked if I was planning to have children. There is - of course - no good way to answer this question. If I say 'yes' then that will bias them against hiring me if a male inter_iewee is on a level footing as myself since. If I say 'no' then I will often be considered to be lying, since society believes that all women generally want children, and exceptions must be broken somehow. I am not the only one of my friends to face this problem. My male friends have never been asked if they were planning to have children in the future, because men are not considered to be primary child-rearers in our society (and this assertion hurts men as much as it does women). From the opposition, a good friend of mine is a stay at home father. Him and his partner both had successful jobs (he was a CEO of a large charity and she is a barrister). When they decided to have children he decided to give up his job and look after their daughter, so that his wife could continue her career. She faces comments regularly along the lines of 'proper' mothers should give up their careers and stay at home. That mothers don't have the drive to work as barristers. On the other hand - he was recently not invited to a school coffee morning because when the notes were checked from the primary school it was shown that their daughters mother had a full time job. So she was not invited. But neither was he, because of the way we _iew men and women's roles in society. So there's two examples of how men and women don't have the same opportunities in life, even though on paper they should have exactly the same. And I'm not even going into "minor" things like - being able to go out and about without the fear of someone commenting on my body, my looks, or being afraid of the person walking 10 paces behind me who appears to be following me. There have been three male-on-female rapes and sexual assaults where I live in well used parks in daytime hours during the last six months. I no longer go running outdoors because I don't want to be a target. I now instead pay £40 a month to run on a treadmill for my own safety - economically depriving me of someone opportunities that I could otherwise have. But to be honest, I'm sick of having to - time and time again - tell these stories. Because men keep asking because they simply don't believe that these things are happening. It's like getting a black or gay person to repeatedly explain why there is societal bias against them. The answer is because we live in a shit world. And even in this thread there have been some rather extreme examples of sexism demonstrated. If one of the men above who had been really quite unpleasant runs a company - do you think he is likely to present an inter_iewee with the same opportunities as a man? | |||
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"There are specific laws that very firmly protect you if you are ACTUALLY discriminated against in the workplace. Maybe they were silly to ask that sure but you can control your reaction to a stupid question. You are looking your friends myopically and with your feminist hat on, I bet the husband also got a bit of slagging for being a stay at home dad. What about the fact that the female of the couple is a powerful barrister to begin with...it counters the point you are trying to make about opportunities and the legal professional was famously an old boys club for many years which further negates your argument. You can call the comments gender stereotyping, I would call it a trivial annoyance at best. I could twist your arguments and say I never go out at night for fear of my safety, which would be legitimate, there have been instances of violent crime and I'm not an imposing character....but it's just that...my perception vs. reality and my choices based on personal risk assessment. No need for a movement or trying to reprogram how society thinks on the matter. " Thank you for your thoughts. I don't believe that you are correct (I believe that anything I replied would have been wrong in your eyes) however I am grateful that we live in a world where people can hold different _iews to each other. I will continue believing that there is still some way to go to achieve gender equality. You do not have to hold the same belief as me. | |||
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"Last word....healthy debate from men is now called "mansplaining". What's that about? " Mansplaining was a term coined after Rebecca Solnit wrote an essay recounting her experiences at a party where her specialist subject was explained to her by someone who didn't know what they were talking about. It gained traction because we've all been there as women. We've all had a guy explain something to us because they assumed we don't know what we're talking about (see above where someone thought they should explain that I didn't know what powerlifting was, even though it was my hobby). It's a really amusing read - and it should be read in the context that the term 'mansplaining' had not yet been coined: http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174918/ It's something that is made worse due to a societal difference in the way that men and women use language (this is a fact that can has been written about in a considerable amount of studies and books). Women and men tend to use words slightly differently. Women are more likely to leave room for error (e.g. I think that this is correct) whereas a man is more likely to say things with certainty. This use of language is something that things like the pay gap can partially be attributed to. It's why you see women being encouraged to 'talk like a man' if they want to be successful. There are lots of small differences between the genders because of the way that society has been constructed over the past few centuries. It's an awful lot to ask for society to completely change it's _iews on men and women in a few decades, but I'm heartened by the fact that so many people have actively tried to change - even if not everyone had made the change. | |||
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On lifting...go to any forum on the topic, no one agrees on anything! You took it to be anti-woman
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"I don't buy your talk like a man thing. Women are generally stronger in areas like emotional intelligence which is a marker of somebody with real leadership capability. " And yet conventionally that is not wisdom that is put into practice. YOU may be extraordinarily equal in your outlook, but that is not something that is repeated across the board. | |||
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"I think people get where they are by motivation and merit. You (plural) can invent perceived roadblocks all you like. Life is a game, you can play it as the many many successful women do or you can whinge on twitter about how the big bad patriarchy is keeping you down and collectively lobby for a step up via gender quotas. Is that really equality? You can _iew it obtusely that getting women into high salaried positions of power by force is anti-woman, as if you aren't good enough to do it on your own. I don't think I'm extraordinary at all, I'm a reasoned individual like most people who don't sit on the extremes." I may have missed something, but who on this thread is arguing for gender quotas? Personally I think that's a terrible idea. Is that just what you think those big bad feminists want, or are you basing it on something specific? | |||
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" I also "whinge on Twitter" about "shite like rape culture". Do you understand how patronising that sounds? " It's not patronising, it's debate. It's my opinion that "rape culture" is overplayed and for those reasons yes I do think it's shite. It rape terrible - yes of course. I've outlined above my thoughts on the matter in posts way back, so why not fight with me on those instead of jumping in and saying I'm being patronising. I do believe your efforts on twitter could be better directed at something more important than creating a culture of hysteria over something that happens of course but is overstated in the media (my opinion - feel free to counter it). The men in your job who haven't risen to the top, are they being held down by the man too or maybe they haven't got what it takes or had their genuine talent recognised either. We all know getting to the top is about arse kissing and politics for the most part. Something I abhore and have no interest in. Please don't be so quick to take offense and just debate with me if you think I'm wrong. I'm happy to change my mind. | |||
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" I also "whinge on Twitter" about "shite like rape culture". Do you understand how patronising that sounds? It's not patronising, it's debate. It's my opinion that "rape culture" is overplayed and for those reasons yes I do think it's shite. It rape terrible - yes of course. I've outlined above my thoughts on the matter in posts way back, so why not fight with me on those instead of jumping in and saying I'm being patronising. I do believe your efforts on twitter could be better directed at something more important than creating a culture of hysteria over something that happens of course but is overstated in the media (my opinion - feel free to counter it). The men in your job who haven't risen to the top, are they being held down by the man too or maybe they haven't got what it takes or had their genuine talent recognised either. We all know getting to the top is about arse kissing and politics for the most part. Something I abhore and have no interest in. Please don't be so quick to take offense and just debate with me if you think I'm wrong. I'm happy to change my mind. " I haven't taken offense, why do you assume I have? And I responded to that bit as opposed to some of your previous, more well-argued, points because I thought it sounded patronising as well as just wrong. Of course there are men in my profession who haven't risen to the top because they're shit and don't deserve to. Just as there are women who are shit and don't deserve to. But I do work with men who have made it to the top and I don't believe do deserve it. I genuinely can't think of a woman in the same position. They've all had to be exceptional to get there. There are channels of arse-kissing that it is difficult for women to break into. It's not usually a big thing that I experience that makes me feel that sexism still exists and should be challenged. It's a hundred little, insidious things like inter_iewing someone for a position who doesn't make any eye contact with me for the entire hour and addresses all of his answers to my male colleagues on the panel. Or people assuming I'm there to serve the tea when actually I'm the most senior person in the room. Or hearing about a colleagues useful discussion with the boss which took place at the pub after they played five a side. Or being asked when I'm having children when no man I work with has ever been asked the same question. Taken alone, none of these are significant. Taken together, they can be. | |||
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" I also "whinge on Twitter" about "shite like rape culture". Do you understand how patronising that sounds? It's not patronising, it's debate. It's my opinion that "rape culture" is overplayed and for those reasons yes I do think it's shite. It rape terrible - yes of course. I've outlined above my thoughts on the matter in posts way back, so why not fight with me on those instead of jumping in and saying I'm being patronising. I do believe your efforts on twitter could be better directed at something more important than creating a culture of hysteria over something that happens of course but is overstated in the media (my opinion - feel free to counter it). The men in your job who haven't risen to the top, are they being held down by the man too or maybe they haven't got what it takes or had their genuine talent recognised either. We all know getting to the top is about arse kissing and politics for the most part. Something I abhore and have no interest in. Please don't be so quick to take offense and just debate with me if you think I'm wrong. I'm happy to change my mind. I haven't taken offense, why do you assume I have? And I responded to that bit as opposed to some of your previous, more well-argued, points because I thought it sounded patronising as well as just wrong. Of course there are men in my profession who haven't risen to the top because they're shit and don't deserve to. Just as there are women who are shit and don't deserve to. But I do work with men who have made it to the top and I don't believe do deserve it. I genuinely can't think of a woman in the same position. They've all had to be exceptional to get there. There are channels of arse-kissing that it is difficult for women to break into. It's not usually a big thing that I experience that makes me feel that sexism still exists and should be challenged. It's a hundred little, insidious things like inter_iewing someone for a position who doesn't make any eye contact with me for the entire hour and addresses all of his answers to my male colleagues on the panel. Or people assuming I'm there to serve the tea when actually I'm the most senior person in the room. Or hearing about a colleagues useful discussion with the boss which took place at the pub after they played five a side. Or being asked when I'm having children when no man I work with has ever been asked the same question. Taken alone, none of these are significant. Taken together, they can be." This is a big part of the problem, it's not just the large things, but the little things snowballing (had to ) into something larger because most people shrug them off | |||
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" It's not usually a big thing that I experience that makes me feel that sexism still exists and should be challenged. It's a hundred little, insidious things like inter_iewing someone for a position who doesn't make any eye contact with me for the entire hour and addresses all of his answers to my male colleagues on the panel. Or people assuming I'm there to serve the tea when actually I'm the most senior person in the room. Or hearing about a colleagues useful discussion with the boss which took place at the pub after they played five a side. Or being asked when I'm having children when no man I work with has ever been asked the same question. Taken alone, none of these are significant. Taken together, they can be." This is a really good video. It's a TED talk by Laura Bates where she talks about the little things that happen every day and build up to become quite oppressive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhjsRjC6B8U | |||
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"If we want to talk about little things....it works both ways but to be honest I find it trivial. It's a part of life, men are women are different and some seem to find it hard to brush the little things off conflate that with confirmation bias and perhaps insecurity on a personal level and where does it get you? Manflu anyone? Boys are stupid throw rocks at them books for little girls? Fab is a case study in reverse sexism for example but is a special case too. " But people who believe in equality think those things are bad too. They believe it's bad to make comments like that which reinforce gender inequality. Men suffer too at the hands of patriarchy - and that's bad! But you know, I just want to live in a world where I'm treated the same as a man. Where I don't get 'nice tits' shouted at me if I decide to go out running (my partners never have comments about their bodies made when they go running by people in the street). Where I don't get called a slut because I have multiple partners. Where I don't get asked 'and what does your boyfriend think about that?' when I tell someone I don't plan to have children. Where I don't have to try and bag a seat next to another woman on public transport so that some guys wandering hands don't get to me. Where I'm told that the videogames industry is a 'mans world' and I shouldn't be trying to get into it as a career. Where I'm told that I won't be successful in politics because men won't listen to me. I don't want to have to live in that world where I'm treated different because I was born with fatty lumps on my chest and a hole. I want to live in a world where I'm taken serious. Where casual sexual assault doesn't happen. Where I can go for a running and not have to run about guys shouting out of their car window or assault. Where I can pick any career I want without being told that it's not for women. where I can go to the gym without being hit on because I'm a woman. I just want to live in the same world that my male friends inhabit. Where they don't have to worry about any of those things on a regular basis. And I don't want to have to keep repeating myself over and over and being told that my personal experiences aren't valid in this world just because they don't line up with the personal experiences of a man. Women are equal now - more or less. Except for when they aren't. | |||
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"Feminism exists because men still say things like "rape culture and shit" Feminism exists because if you walked in to a boardroom and it was all men you probably wouldn't be surprised but if it was all women you would. Feminism exists because when men joke about their fears of prison it is about rape when that is life for a lot of women. Feminism does not exist to belittle men. But some men choose to, once again, make everything about them. Some men rape women but I don't call all men rapists. Some feminists are angry but you shouldn't call all feminists angry. Feminism is not a dirty word. " Totally agree. True feminism is not about beating men in a reverse witch hunt, but that's the impression some people have of feminism, even sometimes people who claim to be feminists | |||
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"Feminism exists because men still say things like "rape culture and shit" Feminism exists because if you walked in to a boardroom and it was all men you probably wouldn't be surprised but if it was all women you would. Feminism exists because when men joke about their fears of prison it is about rape when that is life for a lot of women. Feminism does not exist to belittle men. But some men choose to, once again, make everything about them. Some men rape women but I don't call all men rapists. Some feminists are angry but you shouldn't call all feminists angry. Feminism is not a dirty word. Totally agree. True feminism is not about beating men in a reverse witch hunt, but that's the impression some people have of feminism, even sometimes people who claim to be feminists" of course and it's always the minority who ruin things for the majority. I don't think people actually think things through. Say a man says he's not a feminist, would he be happy for his wife to earn a third less than her peer because she's a woman? Probably not. And that's why feminism exists. But it's been hijacked by "some" men so they can talk about themselves. It's a patriarchal society. | |||
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"Ruby you didn't address my question though? Are incidences of rape going up or is it just being talked about a lot more in the media?" I did, actually, but it's way back and probably confused with other points. I don't think incidences of rape are going up. I do think it's being talked about a lot more in the media. As a result, people's understanding of what rape and sexual assault is are changing. It's not so many years ago that it wasn't legally possible for a husband to rape his wife. There are things that happen that people would not have reported or classed as rape which they now do, like date rape or people being too d*unk to be able to give consent. Think about the child abuse scandals. There were things going on that people just accepted as the way things were that they no longer accept. I see rape and sexual assault in this category too. You don't even have to go back that far. When I was 16, we accepted being groped in bars and clubs as just part and parcel of going out, even if it made me feel crap. Now young women have more confidence to talk about things like that which, while they may not be rape, are still sexual assault. None of this is women creating something that doesn't exist on Twitter or wherever. It's people having the confidence and the platform to discuss things that have happened and to get together and say hang on, it's not ok that a man has just shoved his fingers inside me while I was queueing for a blue WKD. So there being more discussion on a topic doesn't, for me, equate to bluster over nothing. | |||
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"Feminism exists because men still say things like "rape culture and shit" Feminism exists because if you walked in to a boardroom and it was all men you probably wouldn't be surprised but if it was all women you would. Feminism exists because when men joke about their fears of prison it is about rape when that is life for a lot of women. Feminism does not exist to belittle men. But some men choose to, once again, make everything about them. Some men rape women but I don't call all men rapists. Some feminists are angry but you shouldn't call all feminists angry. Feminism is not a dirty word. Totally agree. True feminism is not about beating men in a reverse witch hunt, but that's the impression some people have of feminism, even sometimes people who claim to be feminists of course and it's always the minority who ruin things for the majority. I don't think people actually think things through. Say a man says he's not a feminist, would he be happy for his wife to earn a third less than her peer because she's a woman? Probably not. And that's why feminism exists. But it's been hijacked by "some" men so they can talk about themselves. It's a patriarchal society. " Yes, and the stay at home dad's getting abuse about "not being a real man", he's more of a man than anyone bandying that comment. The irony is that I've heard a woman use this phrase too | |||
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" Yes, and the stay at home dad's getting abuse about "not being a real man", he's more of a man than anyone bandying that comment. The irony is that I've heard a woman use this phrase too" It's not irony, it's sexism. Pure and simple. Women can be sexist too when they say or do things that stem from and reinforce a patriarchal oppressive society. | |||
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"There was a recent incident that feel needs throwing out there. Alison Mcgovern Labour MP appeared on channel 4 news for a debate and happened to show some cleavage. Not a great deal to the point her boobs were spilling out but still enough to receive a letter to say it had been distracting and in the future could she cover up. Apparently she's not the first MP to receive a similar complaint and couple of days after she posted the letter there was letters etc in the metro about it. They ranged from men don't show bare flesh to get their point across so she should be more covered up to letters of support. Obviously she should with in reason be able to wear what she wants to do her job without these kind of comments. " Not to mention that Stella Creasy was dragged through the media for wearing a blue, wet look skirt in parliament. The media said the fabric was inappropriate. She pointed out that David Cameron had been wearing a tie made out of almost the same fabric. | |||
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"It'll be ridiculous sexist post like this that make them flip their lid I'd imagine "This post isn't sexist and even if it was it wouldn't excuse rape threats | |||
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"Ruby you didn't address my question though? Are incidences of rape going up or is it just being talked about a lot more in the media? I did, actually, but it's way back and probably confused with other points. I don't think incidences of rape are going up. I do think it's being talked about a lot more in the media. As a result, people's understanding of what rape and sexual assault is are changing. It's not so many years ago that it wasn't legally possible for a husband to rape his wife. There are things that happen that people would not have reported or classed as rape which they now do, like date rape or people being too d*unk to be able to give consent. Think about the child abuse scandals. There were things going on that people just accepted as the way things were that they no longer accept. I see rape and sexual assault in this category too. You don't even have to go back that far. When I was 16, we accepted being groped in bars and clubs as just part and parcel of going out, even if it made me feel crap. Now young women have more confidence to talk about things like that which, while they may not be rape, are still sexual assault. None of this is women creating something that doesn't exist on Twitter or wherever. It's people having the confidence and the platform to discuss things that have happened and to get together and say hang on, it's not ok that a man has just shoved his fingers inside me while I was queueing for a blue WKD. So there being more discussion on a topic doesn't, for me, equate to bluster over nothing. " This, when going out years ago I've had friends claim I was their boyfriend just so they could be left in peace. It's good women have enough of a voice now to bring these subjects to the fore in public, but there's still a long way to go to make things fair, and even then, individual cases will probably always still occur | |||
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"Also an added possibly off topic bit but isn't it time that the major religions and the holy books attributed to them were looked into seeing they have been a teaching aid for centuries about morals and how we should conduct our life and yet certainly within the bible have shaped the _iew that women were untrustworthy as temptress of sin or not worthy to be heard. Probably a topic for either another day or probably best not to be held at all considering the strong _iews that can be expressed regarding religion. " I think this is perfectly on topic. I think in the bible there is mention of stoning women who had sex out of wedlock maybe. I've not read the bible so I'm just relaying something I think I was told some years ago. | |||
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" Yes, and the stay at home dad's getting abuse about "not being a real man", he's more of a man than anyone bandying that comment. The irony is that I've heard a woman use this phrase too It's not irony, it's sexism. Pure and simple. Women can be sexist too when they say or do things that stem from and reinforce a patriarchal oppressive society." I realise and understand this, as demonstrated in my essayesque post. But the irony is from a woman saying a man is not a real man for raising kids while the wife works. I find that ironic because (and here's where I probably sound naive) I assume that most women have some inkling as to what it takes to raise kids, even if they don't have kids. That's probably a bit sexist, but that's also how society was for millennia as well | |||
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" Yes, and the stay at home dad's getting abuse about "not being a real man", he's more of a man than anyone bandying that comment. The irony is that I've heard a woman use this phrase too It's not irony, it's sexism. Pure and simple. Women can be sexist too when they say or do things that stem from and reinforce a patriarchal oppressive society. I realise and understand this, as demonstrated in my essayesque post. But the irony is from a woman saying a man is not a real man for raising kids while the wife works. I find that ironic because (and here's where I probably sound naive) I assume that most women have some inkling as to what it takes to raise kids, even if they don't have kids. That's probably a bit sexist, but that's also how society was for millennia as well" That is sexist. | |||
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" Yes, and the stay at home dad's getting abuse about "not being a real man", he's more of a man than anyone bandying that comment. The irony is that I've heard a woman use this phrase too It's not irony, it's sexism. Pure and simple. Women can be sexist too when they say or do things that stem from and reinforce a patriarchal oppressive society. I realise and understand this, as demonstrated in my essayesque post. But the irony is from a woman saying a man is not a real man for raising kids while the wife works. I find that ironic because (and here's where I probably sound naive) I assume that most women have some inkling as to what it takes to raise kids, even if they don't have kids. That's probably a bit sexist, but that's also how society was for millennia as well That is sexist. " I'm sorry | |||
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" Yes, and the stay at home dad's getting abuse about "not being a real man", he's more of a man than anyone bandying that comment. The irony is that I've heard a woman use this phrase too It's not irony, it's sexism. Pure and simple. Women can be sexist too when they say or do things that stem from and reinforce a patriarchal oppressive society. I realise and understand this, as demonstrated in my essayesque post. But the irony is from a woman saying a man is not a real man for raising kids while the wife works. I find that ironic because (and here's where I probably sound naive) I assume that most women have some inkling as to what it takes to raise kids, even if they don't have kids. That's probably a bit sexist, but that's also how society was for millennia as well That is sexist. I'm sorry" It is quite sexist. Being born with a uterus doesn't mean I have any idea about raising kids. With my absolute aversion to children (and being brought up an only child), I'm reasonably sure that you have more of an inkling than I do about what raising children might entail. | |||
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" Yes, and the stay at home dad's getting abuse about "not being a real man", he's more of a man than anyone bandying that comment. The irony is that I've heard a woman use this phrase too It's not irony, it's sexism. Pure and simple. Women can be sexist too when they say or do things that stem from and reinforce a patriarchal oppressive society. I realise and understand this, as demonstrated in my essayesque post. But the irony is from a woman saying a man is not a real man for raising kids while the wife works. I find that ironic because (and here's where I probably sound naive) I assume that most women have some inkling as to what it takes to raise kids, even if they don't have kids. That's probably a bit sexist, but that's also how society was for millennia as well" I am a woman and I don't have a clue how to raise children. I have an innate dislike of them and it means that I am very awkward around them and don't really know what to do with them.
So, yeah, that is pretty sexist and factually incorrect.
-Courtney | |||
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" Yes, and the stay at home dad's getting abuse about "not being a real man", he's more of a man than anyone bandying that comment. The irony is that I've heard a woman use this phrase too It's not irony, it's sexism. Pure and simple. Women can be sexist too when they say or do things that stem from and reinforce a patriarchal oppressive society. I realise and understand this, as demonstrated in my essayesque post. But the irony is from a woman saying a man is not a real man for raising kids while the wife works. I find that ironic because (and here's where I probably sound naive) I assume that most women have some inkling as to what it takes to raise kids, even if they don't have kids. That's probably a bit sexist, but that's also how society was for millennia as well I am a woman and I don't have a clue how to raise children. I have an innate dislike of them and it means that I am very awkward around them and don't really know what to do with them.
So, yeah, that is pretty sexist and factually incorrect.
-Courtney"Me too But plenty of women also make the same assumption about me, so that one is definitely not just men. Like when someone brings a baby into work and I'm supposed to join the hoarde of cooing women instead of just staying in my chair looking a bit awkward like the men. | |||
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"Yes, I realised it was sexist, I mentioned that, and I have apologised as well. My comment I made because, even though it was sexist, at the time, that was my thought process. I would like to think I'm more enlightened nowadays, but I still have a long way to go" At the time of the event, not at the time of the post. I really like to drop myself in trouble | |||
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"Yes, I realised it was sexist, I mentioned that, and I have apologised as well. My comment I made because, even though it was sexist, at the time, that was my thought process. I would like to think I'm more enlightened nowadays, but I still have a long way to go" I don't think you have to apologize...I think lots of people assume it. Like Ruby notes, women do it a lot too, more than men I think. It is a sexist assumption, but I can't blame people too much because it is bred into our society. -Courtney | |||
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"Yes, I realised it was sexist, I mentioned that, and I have apologised as well. My comment I made because, even though it was sexist, at the time, that was my thought process. I would like to think I'm more enlightened nowadays, but I still have a long way to go I don't think you have to apologize...I think lots of people assume it. Like Ruby notes, women do it a lot too, more than men I think. It is a sexist assumption, but I can't blame people too much because it is bred into our society. -Courtney" I agree Courtney, however, the apology was my way of acknowledging that it is indeed sexist, and that sexism is something that people who think these "little things" are just that should be ashamed of because it's little things that are a tip of an iceberg. Or at least, they were in my case | |||
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"Yes, I realised it was sexist, I mentioned that, and I have apologised as well. My comment I made because, even though it was sexist, at the time, that was my thought process. I would like to think I'm more enlightened nowadays, but I still have a long way to go I don't think you have to apologize...I think lots of people assume it. Like Ruby notes, women do it a lot too, more than men I think. It is a sexist assumption, but I can't blame people too much because it is bred into our society. -Courtney I agree Courtney, however, the apology was my way of acknowledging that it is indeed sexist, and that sexism is something that people who think these "little things" are just that should be ashamed of because it's little things that are a tip of an iceberg. Or at least, they were in my case" On reflection, I'm not vocalising well, what I meant was people who say sexist things and when confronted, defend themselves by saying they're "little things" | |||
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"Yes, I realised it was sexist, I mentioned that, and I have apologised as well. My comment I made because, even though it was sexist, at the time, that was my thought process. I would like to think I'm more enlightened nowadays, but I still have a long way to go I don't think you have to apologize...I think lots of people assume it. Like Ruby notes, women do it a lot too, more than men I think. It is a sexist assumption, but I can't blame people too much because it is bred into our society. -Courtney I agree Courtney, however, the apology was my way of acknowledging that it is indeed sexist, and that sexism is something that people who think these "little things" are just that should be ashamed of because it's little things that are a tip of an iceberg. Or at least, they were in my case On reflection, I'm not vocalising well, what I meant was people who say sexist things and when confronted, defend themselves by saying they're "little things"" I get you. But don't worry, they are little things....
-Courtney | |||
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"Yes, I realised it was sexist, I mentioned that, and I have apologised as well. My comment I made because, even though it was sexist, at the time, that was my thought process. I would like to think I'm more enlightened nowadays, but I still have a long way to go I don't think you have to apologize...I think lots of people assume it. Like Ruby notes, women do it a lot too, more than men I think. It is a sexist assumption, but I can't blame people too much because it is bred into our society. -Courtney I agree Courtney, however, the apology was my way of acknowledging that it is indeed sexist, and that sexism is something that people who think these "little things" are just that should be ashamed of because it's little things that are a tip of an iceberg. Or at least, they were in my case On reflection, I'm not vocalising well, what I meant was people who say sexist things and when confronted, defend themselves by saying they're "little things" I get you. But don't worry, they are little things....
-Courtney"Thanks for understanding my discombobulated babbling
Unfortunately, in my case, that was not so | |||
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" I am a woman and I don't have a clue how to raise children. I have an innate dislike of them and it means that I am very awkward around them and don't really know what to do with them.
So, yeah, that is pretty sexist and factually incorrect.
-Courtney
Me too But plenty of women also make the same assumption about me, so that one is definitely not just men. Like when someone brings a baby into work and I'm supposed to join the hoarde of cooing women instead of just staying in my chair looking a bit awkward like the men."This is me! Now if it were a puppy, then I would get out my chair! | |||
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