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Refugees and Immigrants: Help or reject?
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"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help " Wanting genuine opinions. If people put an opinion to please others, then they're the ones that aren't helpful. You should always stay true to what you believe.  | |||
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"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants. Do we help refugees? Yes Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No. Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs. C..." The first issue is this, getting people to understand the difference between a refugee and an immigrant. They aren't the same thing. When you see the suffering that some refugees endure, humanity dictates they should not be ignored. Immigrants on the other hand, are something that we can and should control. We have a finite amount of resources and our infrastructure can only take so much demand, so as a country we should be doing what we can - and by control, I don't mean shut them all out, some bring value to the UK, others don't. | |||
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"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants. Do we help refugees? Yes Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No. Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs. C... The first issue is this, getting people to understand the difference between a refugee and an immigrant. They aren't the same thing. When you see the suffering that some refugees endure, humanity dictates they should not be ignored. Immigrants on the other hand, are something that we can and should control. We have a finite amount of resources and our infrastructure can only take so much demand, so as a country we should be doing what we can - and by control, I don't mean shut them all out, some bring value to the UK, others don't. " Pretty much sums up my _iew. | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. " Respect to you sir. | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. " But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?' Mr ddc | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. " All that needs to be said. | |||
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"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants. Do we help refugees? Yes Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No. Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs. C... The first issue is this, getting people to understand the difference between a refugee and an immigrant. They aren't the same thing. When you see the suffering that some refugees endure, humanity dictates they should not be ignored. Immigrants on the other hand, are something that we can and should control. We have a finite amount of resources and our infrastructure can only take so much demand, so as a country we should be doing what we can - and by control, I don't mean shut them all out, some bring value to the UK, others don't. " Are you saying the worth of a person should be based on how useful they are to you, what about disabled people who can't do anything? | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?' Mr ddc" I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:- * housing * clothing * food * water & sanitation * education More than enough. It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores. To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany? | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?' Mr ddc I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:- * housing * clothing * food * water & sanitation * education More than enough. It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores. To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany?" You're on target this morning. | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?' Mr ddc I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:- * housing * clothing * food * water & sanitation * education More than enough. It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores. To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany?" I agree. There is enough to go round. That's the biggest con in all of this! | |||
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"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants. Do we help refugees? Yes Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No. Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs. C..." Fair point. Also like to add that no immigrant/asylum seekers can claim any extra benefits a UK resident can claim. Also extra criteria for them to hit and non-eu immigrants/asylum seekers can claim very minimal benefits. | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?' Mr ddc I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:- * housing * clothing * food * water & sanitation * education More than enough. It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores. To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany? I agree. There is enough to go round. That's the biggest con in all of this!" It's all about control. Thankfully some of us can see that, but we need to keep pushing. Wake up people, get your noses out of your Daily Mails and see the truth. | |||
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"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants. Do we help refugees? Yes Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No. Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs. C... The first issue is this, getting people to understand the difference between a refugee and an immigrant. They aren't the same thing. When you see the suffering that some refugees endure, humanity dictates they should not be ignored. Immigrants on the other hand, are something that we can and should control. We have a finite amount of resources and our infrastructure can only take so much demand, so as a country we should be doing what we can - and by control, I don't mean shut them all out, some bring value to the UK, others don't. Are you saying the worth of a person should be based on how useful they are to you, what about disabled people who can't do anything?" No, thats not what I am saying, or what I have written. I didn't put 'me' into the statement. | |||
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"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants. Do we help refugees? Yes Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No. Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs. C... The first issue is this, getting people to understand the difference between a refugee and an immigrant. They aren't the same thing. When you see the suffering that some refugees endure, humanity dictates they should not be ignored. Immigrants on the other hand, are something that we can and should control. We have a finite amount of resources and our infrastructure can only take so much demand, so as a country we should be doing what we can - and by control, I don't mean shut them all out, some bring value to the UK, others don't. " Great point well made. | |||
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"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants. Do we help refugees? Yes Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No. Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs. C..." What about " financial " migrants? | |||
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"This government cant even help the British people, so much so many familys are now relying on food banks and clothes banks now . NO" I have first hand experience of this as many of the families I support use food banks so agree that the government should be doing more to support people in this country. However, I believe those who can help should help those in need. If we were in that situation we'd more than likely want to escape. Save as many as we can. | |||
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 we already waste too much money on foreign aid.
All a matter of getting our priorities correct. | |||
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"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help. Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc. What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help. Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ???? How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others we already waste too much money on foreign aid.
All a matter of getting our priorities correct. "So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution? Nice. | |||
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"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help. Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc. What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help. Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ???? How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others we already waste too much money on foreign aid.
All a matter of getting our priorities correct.
So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?
Nice."YEP
Hitler had it right - see to his own people first | |||
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"YEP
Hitler had it right - see to his own people first "Are you *actually* shitting me? Loooooool Everybody point and laugh! | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?' Mr ddc I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:- * housing * clothing * food * water & sanitation * education More than enough. It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores. To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany?" That's not much comfort to them "there's plenty to go around, but sorry, I don't have time right now" The truth is we don't have enough houses, schools, teachers, doctors, nurses, etc to allow in millions of people, though that is the fault of governments refusing to invest in our infrastructure. Of course we could simply help ourselves to the educated youth of other countries, but how does that help those countries in the long-term? How about Spain, with youth unemployment running around 50%, should they further swell the pool of available labour? The truth is we are happy to meddle in other countries and cause the instability, but when it comes to dealing with the problems iy causes suddenly our politicians just want to wring their hands. | |||
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"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help Wanting genuine opinions. If people put an opinion to please others, then they're the ones that aren't helpful. You should always stay true to what you believe. "Keeping your opinion is also acceptable. | |||
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"That's not much comfort to them "there's plenty to go around, but sorry, I don't have time right now" The truth is we don't have enough houses, schools, teachers, doctors, nurses, etc to allow in millions of people, though that is the fault of governments refusing to invest in our infrastructure. Of course we could simply help ourselves to the educated youth of other countries, but how does that help those countries in the long-term? How about Spain, with youth unemployment running around 50%, should they further swell the pool of available labour? The truth is we are happy to meddle in other countries and cause the instability, but when it comes to dealing with the problems iy causes suddenly our politicians just want to wring their hands." Like most of my points, it's a simple statement of fact. I have this annoying thing called 'work' that I'm occasionally called upon to do. I'll pick the debate up later. Assuming you haven't all solved it in the meantime by 'sending them all back where they came from'. | |||
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"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help Wanting genuine opinions. If people put an opinion to please others, then they're the ones that aren't helpful. You should always stay true to what you believe.
Keeping your opinion is also acceptable. " | |||
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"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help " hey how can anyone take seriously a thread when many of the pics from people involved are cocks breasts and pussies of course we should help but so should all the other EU countries ,they want to come here because we are open to abuse ,we are a nation that turns the other cheek and hasn't it bit us in the bum  | |||
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"Like most of my points, it's a simple statement of fact. I have this annoying thing called 'work' that I'm occasionally called upon to do. I'll pick the debate up later. Assuming you haven't all solved it in the meantime by 'sending them all back where they came from'. "That's kinda my point, the Left are always keen to offer platitudes, but all these people want is actual help. Soundbites are always easier to provide than solutions. | |||
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"Like most of my points, it's a simple statement of fact. I have this annoying thing called 'work' that I'm occasionally called upon to do. I'll pick the debate up later. Assuming you haven't all solved it in the meantime by 'sending them all back where they came from'.
That's kinda my point, the Left are always keen to offer platitudes, but all these people want is actual help. Soundbites are always easier to provide than solutions."The left also provide solutions rather than platitudes, but all people want is to make vapid assertions. Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts. | |||
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"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help. Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc. What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help. Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ???? How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others we already waste too much money on foreign aid.
All a matter of getting our priorities correct.
So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?
Nice.
YEP
Hitler had it right - see to his own people first "Wow, did you actually think that was a good/funny thing to say? What about all the innocent people who died while he 'saw to his own people' (which, by the way, he didn't actually do anyway!) | |||
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"Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts." Wasn't it Gordon Brown who, when asked why we couldn't have more investment in services and housing, in order to reduce the pressure from immigration, simply replied "Bigot"?  | |||
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"Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts. Wasn't it Gordon Brown who, when asked why we couldn't have more investment in services and housing, in order to reduce the pressure from immigration, simply replied "Bigot"? "If it was, what's your point? | |||
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"Close the loop holes that allow big company to avoid paying tax, help them out and stop spreading hate in the media. " The tax thing is another media stir up line. Companies legally avoid paying excess tax by placing their offices in countries that charge less, but they still pay employees tax, NI contributions, VAT and many other taxes in this or any other country they work in, so net gain not loss. We all do it, If you get given a tenner for helping someone out do you send £4 to the taxman? if not why not? if someone buys you a drink, dinner whatever that is a benefit received, you should pay tax on it. but I bet you don't... if the media targeted you then yes the numbers are smaller, but the exploits are pretty much the same. | |||
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"Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts. Wasn't it Gordon Brown who, when asked why we couldn't have more investment in services and housing, in order to reduce the pressure from immigration, simply replied "Bigot"? "It think you're having a senior moment. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8649012.stm I hope the general quality of your argument is better than your memory. | |||
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"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help hey how can anyone take seriously a thread when many of the pics from people involved are cocks breasts and pussies of course we should help but so should all the other EU countries ,they want to come here because we are open to abuse ,we are a nation that turns the other cheek and hasn't it bit us in the bum "I'd probably research how many other countries take more refugees and immigrants than us. And not in your subscription of the daily make. | |||
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"Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts. Wasn't it Gordon Brown who, when asked why we couldn't have more investment in services and housing, in order to reduce the pressure from immigration, simply replied "Bigot"?
If it was, what's your point?"I was meant to be replying to the bit about 'the left having all the answers', but I got a bit carried away and deleted the wrong bit 
My overall point is that we do need to help, but it isn't as simple as some people like to pretend.
Just last week we had a farmer complaining he wasn't being paid enough for his milk, today we are being told there is plenty to go around, he should give it away for free.
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"Close the loop holes that allow big company to avoid paying tax, help them out and stop spreading hate in the media. " Now THIS is the real battle that needs to be won. Big organisations evade hundreds of billions in tax. Guess what our debt in the UK is? 
We're controlled by a government who are controlled by big companies. Doesn't bode well.
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"Close the loop holes that allow big company to avoid paying tax, help them out and stop spreading hate in the media. " | |||
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"Generalisations are always easier to provide than actual facts. Wasn't it Gordon Brown who, when asked why we couldn't have more investment in services and housing, in order to reduce the pressure from immigration, simply replied "Bigot"?
It think you're having a senior moment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8649012.stm
I hope the general quality of your argument is better than your memory.
"*taps foot* | |||
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"Refugees - Help, then return or employ Immigrants (legal) - No help, if they didn't come to work then they can go home. but build up entitlement over years. Immigrants (illegal) Arrest, process and return at their expense. Borderline cases... cleverer people need to decide " okay then... if that is your template.... what about people from syria.... they are fleeing from civil war, and from assad on one side... and isis on the other.... which definition do they fall under? because as someone else said...if there were bombs falling on my house, and isis potentially looking at coming in... i would leave without thought i think we have to get out of the notion of saying people want to come here just to claim benefits... because that really isn't true, and the dirty truth is they do a lot of the jobs that british people see as being beneath them if you have a look at a long of the pictures.. it the young and younger families that are making the journeys, the old aren't fit enough to risk it...... | |||
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"(really *must* do some work...)" But you're making too many good points, don't give up now! Plus it's a great distraction from my own work at the moment | |||
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"There is a big difference between refugees and immigrants. Do we help refugees? Yes Do we allow in any more financial immigrants? No. Industry should invest more in training. That goes from the top premiership football clubs and financial institutions all the way down to Indian restaurants not training their own chefs. C... The first issue is this, getting people to understand the difference between a refugee and an immigrant. They aren't the same thing. When you see the suffering that some refugees endure, humanity dictates they should not be ignored. Immigrants on the other hand, are something that we can and should control. We have a finite amount of resources and our infrastructure can only take so much demand, so as a country we should be doing what we can - and by control, I don't mean shut them all out, some bring value to the UK, others don't. Pretty much sums up my _iew. " I agree | |||
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"Refugees - Help, then return or employ Immigrants (legal) - No help, if they didn't come to work then they can go home. but build up entitlement over years. Immigrants (illegal) Arrest, process and return at their expense. Borderline cases... cleverer people need to decide i think we have to get out of the notion of saying people want to come here just to claim benefits... because that really isn't true, and the dirty truth is they do a lot of the jobs that british people see as being beneath them " Agree with you here, my dad works in a greenhouse (growing food for wholesale companies) and the majority of those working with him are foreign. Working their arses of daily, little pay and ridiculous hours. | |||
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"(really *must* do some work...) But you're making too many good points, don't give up now! Plus it's a great distraction from my own work at the moment " It's not about giving up - it's about using my time more productively. I do not genuinely believe that any one of these threads has ever made anyone change their mind or think, hmm, maybe... possibly, I got that wrong? It's just people shouting at one another through the void. Too much heat, not enough light. | |||
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"Refugees - Help, then return or employ Immigrants (legal) - No help, if they didn't come to work then they can go home. but build up entitlement over years. Immigrants (illegal) Arrest, process and return at their expense. Borderline cases... cleverer people need to decide okay then... if that is your template.... what about people from syria.... they are fleeing from civil war, and from assad on one side... and isis on the other.... which definition do they fall under? " Very clearly refugees I would say, wouldn't you? Those from Libya too | |||
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" *taps foot*" I don't get it, it was Brown, (which I knew all along obvs) Just like it was Ed Milliband banging on about the numbers of immigrants the coalition let in. I can't really add more than my comment to Edwardu above (Ps sorry for being tardy, but I was trying to work too  )
Besides, you never answered any of my points.... | |||
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" *taps foot* I don't get it, it was Brown, (which I knew all along obvs) Just like it was Ed Milliband banging on about the numbers of immigrants the coalition let in. I can't really add more than my comment to Edwardu above (Ps sorry for being tardy, but I was trying to work too )
Besides, you never answered any of my points...."*CObullshitFFS* Sorry, what was that? Something in my throat there... | |||
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" *taps foot* I don't get it, it was Brown, (which I knew all along obvs) Just like it was Ed Milliband banging on about the numbers of immigrants the coalition let in. I can't really add more than my comment to Edwardu above (Ps sorry for being tardy, but I was trying to work too )
Besides, you never answered any of my points....
*CObullshitFFS*
Sorry, what was that?
Something in my throat there..."My point was you were woefully mis-remembering one of the best recorded bloopers from the 2010 election. If ya can't get that right... well.. | |||
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"Hi all, Having a discussion for a project at work and would appreciate people's _iews as to whether we should help immigrants and refugees or leave them to fend for themselves? My personal and professional _iew is we must help them. I think we're lucky to have been born where we are and if I had a young family, I'd do anything I could to escape the terrors they have endured. Post away... "I've not read the thread. On the basis of the title I'd say help refugees and limit the number of immigrants. | |||
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" Besides, you never answered any of my points.... *CObullshitFFS* Sorry, what was that? Something in my throat there..." Ahhh, the 'let's resort to insults instead of debating actual political points' argument. With you now, Joe. I'm sure the millions of refugees will sleep better now thanks to that little gem. I'd better let you get on with your work... | |||
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"Reject as there county's became like they are because of the people that live there, so really the hosts country will end up the same. Better off fixing the problems in there country." Have to agree with above help in their own country , we don't have the money or resources to keep letting thousands more people he who can offer our country nothing but debt in return . They have passed through enough safe countries to try and get hear ......waits to get jumped on  | |||
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"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help. Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc. What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help. Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ???? How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others we already waste too much money on foreign aid.
All a matter of getting our priorities correct. " | |||
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" *taps foot* I don't get it, it was Brown, (which I knew all along obvs) Just like it was Ed Milliband banging on about the numbers of immigrants the coalition let in. I can't really add more than my comment to Edwardu above (Ps sorry for being tardy, but I was trying to work too )
Besides, you never answered any of my points....
*CObullshitFFS*
Sorry, what was that?
Something in my throat there...
My point was you were woefully mis-remembering one of the best recorded bloopers from the 2010 election.
If ya can't get that right... well.."*taps foot* | |||
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"We are only a small island at the end of the day. It's nice to help but do we have the room??? " I know we're using 'room' as shorthand but what we really need is resources - school places, hospital beds, housing and so on. These are already in short supply. | |||
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"Seems to me the vast majority of these immigrants/refugees are mainly fit and healthy young men between 18 & 30... Wearing nike sportswear and clutching smartphones.... I know this because there are already loads of them hanging around bristols shopping precincts during the day when they should be at work... And im sure some cities are much worse... . Do we really need, or can we really afford, loads more ? simply my own observation from where i live. " I think your missing the point..between immigrants and refuges...yes we should control immigration...pretty difficult now with EU rules....but no we should help these poor people out...the poor young boy washed up on the beach in Turkey didnt look like he was dressed in a shell suit | |||
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"Some great _iews. For my encore, a politics thread. "Oh no it isn't! | |||
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"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help. Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc. What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help. Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ???? How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others we already waste too much money on foreign aid.
All a matter of getting our priorities correct.
So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?
Nice.
YEP
Hitler had it right - see to his own people first
Wow, did you actually think that was a good/funny thing to say? What about all the innocent people who died while he 'saw to his own people' (which, by the way, he didn't actually do anyway!)"So the Hitler fan apparently cares about our armed services!!! Give me a break #populistbullshit | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. But it quickly gets complicated when you ask 'how?' Mr ddc I don't have time right now. But the simple fact of the matter is there is more than enough on this planet for *everyone* to enjoy:- * housing * clothing * food * water & sanitation * education More than enough. It's just these pesky brown people somehow keep getting left behind and thenm to make it worse, keep washing up (metaphorically and literally atm) on European shores. To all the nay-sayers: Would you have sent Jewish refugee in the late 30s back to Germany? I agree. There is enough to go round. That's the biggest con in all of this!" Ghandi once said: The world has enough for everyones need but not enough for for everyones greed. | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. " . and incredibly naive,we have limited resources,seems to me most trying to get in are illegal immigrants coming to better their financial situation,fair play for trying,but we dont have to be mugs by letting them,I don't want to see Britain become some third world country as some parts already have,reject them full stop. | |||
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"I don't know what the answer is but waking up and seeing the picture of the wee boy on the beach has just broken my heart "I could not agree more. I continue to be puzzled by the following: Humans, all humans except those with psychopathic personality profiles (and this would follow a proper psychological diagnosis so is not aimed at anybody on this thread!) ... are equipped with a modicum of empathy for others. In fact even animals are able to display empathy. Where is this empathy when looking at what happens with people in genuine need? I said yesterday on another thread that I can only explain this as that people do see what is going on, have empathy but choose to look away because it may be too painful to even think about it and it would mean they could not simply turn away? | |||
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"Another thread to cause a problem the do gooders will be ready to pounce on any one that says don,t help " would you want the same sort of help from one of the do gooders where you or yours to have an accident, physical trauma etc or would you think they should just look the other way as its not their business..? | |||
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"Help. It's very simple. . and incredibly naive,we have limited resources,seems to me most trying to get in are illegal immigrants coming to better their financial situation,fair play for trying,but we dont have to be mugs by letting them,I don't want to see Britain become some third world country as some parts already have,reject them full stop." You can go back to where you came from n' all | |||
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"Another thought....all you lovely, nice, charitable people who maintain that "we" should help.... Would you personally sponsor a refugee/immigrant to cover his/her living costs here ? Maybe put one up in your spare room and feed and cloth them ? Maybe be happy for government to impose an extra few percent on your tax bill to cover the costs ? its nice to try and claim the moral high ground...until it starts costing you personally...." And how do you know that this is not happening already but people do not brag about it? Just a thought. | |||
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"Another thought....all you lovely, nice, charitable people who maintain that "we" should help.... Would you personally sponsor a refugee/immigrant to cover his/her living costs here ? Maybe put one up in your spare room and feed and cloth them ? Maybe be happy for government to impose an extra few percent on your tax bill to cover the costs ? its nice to try and claim the moral high ground...until it starts costing you personally...." Actually yes i would...and i do donate monthly through a direct debit...but theres a saying in this world..you reap what you sow...and lets get one thing straight these are NOT immigrants THERE refugees from something were aiding and abetting in !!! | |||
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"Another thought....all you lovely, nice, charitable people who maintain that "we" should help.... Would you personally sponsor a refugee/immigrant to cover his/her living costs here ? Maybe put one up in your spare room and feed and cloth them ? Maybe be happy for government to impose an extra few percent on your tax bill to cover the costs ? its nice to try and claim the moral high ground...until it starts costing you personally...." I don't have a spare room but you can bet your ass I'd have given that kid my bed if it saved him from death. | |||
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"Another thought....all you lovely, nice, charitable people who maintain that "we" should help.... Would you personally sponsor a refugee/immigrant to cover his/her living costs here ? Maybe put one up in your spare room and feed and cloth them ? " It needs the government to grant refugee status, so that they can work for a living, but sure a Syrian family are welcome to start their stay in my house, don't forget they are often skilled professional people that will soon be working somewhere, it takes a driven person to get from a war zone to Calais. But see my post above about economic immigrants legal or illegal they don't get to stay in my home. | |||
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"Another thought....all you lovely, nice, charitable people who maintain that "we" should help.... Would you personally sponsor a refugee/immigrant to cover his/her living costs here ? Maybe put one up in your spare room and feed and cloth them ? Maybe be happy for government to impose an extra few percent on your tax bill to cover the costs ? its nice to try and claim the moral high ground...until it starts costing you personally...." yes.. | |||
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"Seems to me the vast majority of these immigrants/refugees are mainly fit and healthy young men between 18 & 30... Wearing nike sportswear and clutching smartphones.... I know this because there are already loads of them hanging around bristols shopping precincts during the day when they should be at work... And im sure some cities are much worse... . Do we really need, or can we really afford, loads more ? simply my own observation from where i live. " Let me repeat from a previous thread. 4,000,000 (4 million) have been displaced from Syria. These people had Assad bombing them on one side and Daesh beheaders hunting them down on the other side. 99% of those people are in squalid refugee camps in bordering Turkey, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan. There are probably also hundreds of thousands, if not millions more displaced people from Iraq and Libya fleeing the murderous Daesh terrorists. Remember that OUR tax money directly created this mess by removing powerful Dictators who kept the lid on religious fanaticism within their own borders. The young men are leaving their families in search of a better life to bring their families to. This has happened in times of trouble for as long as humans have been on earth. | |||
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"Dirty Girl give a kid a bed on your on a sex site you might be getting your self in trouble there be careful what you sday" Are you fucking serious?!
Like really? Did you just say that out loud?
You are a poor excuse for a human being and quite frankly I've got nothing else to say that even remotely describes my feelings on you. | |||
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"[Removed by poster at 03/09/15 12:02:12]" Too slow. | |||
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"Dirty Girl meant as a joke sorry did not mean to offend " It actually didnt come over that way tbh...maybe think before opening mouth comes to mind lol...and no offense meant here either | |||
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"Another thought....all you lovely, nice, charitable people who maintain that "we" should help.... Would you personally sponsor a refugee/immigrant to cover his/her living costs here ? Maybe put one up in your spare room and feed and cloth them ? Maybe be happy for government to impose an extra few percent on your tax bill to cover the costs ? its nice to try and claim the moral high ground...until it starts costing you personally...." Yes, yes I would. | |||
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"I find it difficult to understand that other human beings will turn there backs on these people and use words like do Gooders . This is a thread for people's _iews not critsize if someone is prepared to help or would help " Absolutely agree and to be honest, it does not bother me what other people call me or how they think of me. As long as I know I am arguing for the right cause, as long as I know I am doing something to help it feels the right thing to continue doing. By the way, I learnt that soe European countries including Germany are happy to integrate refugees as many of them are highly qualified people so actually it can work out at the economic level, too. | |||
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"Dirty Girl meant as a joke sorry did not mean to offend It actually didnt come over that way tbh...maybe think before opening mouth comes to mind lol...and no offense meant here either
"There will always be somebody that will have a go at you on here i find it funny | |||
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"I find it difficult to understand that other human beings will turn there backs on these people and use words like do Gooders . This is a thread for people's _iews not critsize if someone is prepared to help or would help Absolutely agree and to be honest, it does not bother me what other people call me or how they think of me. As long as I know I am arguing for the right cause, as long as I know I am doing something to help it feels the right thing to continue doing. By the way, I learnt that soe European countries including Germany are happy to integrate refugees as many of them are highly qualified people so actually it can work out at the economic level, too. " | |||
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"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help. Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc. What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help. Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ???? How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others we already waste too much money on foreign aid.
All a matter of getting our priorities correct.
So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?
Nice.
YEP
Hitler had it right - see to his own people first "Couple of wee problems with this. Firstly, rather a lot of his own people ended up in mass graves just because they had a different outlook on life. Then secondly he proceeded to invade as many countries as possible, which was not in the best interests of his people - it literally split the country for 50 years. | |||
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"YEP
Hitler had it right - see to his own people first
Are you *actually* shitting me?
Loooooool
Everybody point and laugh!"Too true so many do-gooders in this country haven't got a clue about real life and most only say on forums and in public what they feel or expect people want to hear rather than their true thoughts. The amount of social workers that fuck up peoples lives with their do good theoretical attitudes is quite outstanding So let's just let everyone in regardless  then every town and city can have gangs of professional beggars earning more than the average wage, whilst claiming benefits. | |||
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"Another thought....all you lovely, nice, charitable people who maintain that "we" should help.... Would you personally sponsor a refugee/immigrant to cover his/her living costs here ? Maybe put one up in your spare room and feed and cloth them ? Maybe be happy for government to impose an extra few percent on your tax bill to cover the costs ? its nice to try and claim the moral high ground...until it starts costing you personally...." British Red Cross supporter!
And since tax money has played a part in the chaos and displacement of many of these people's lives. what's a few extra pounds to clear up the mess? | |||
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"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help. Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc. What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help. Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ???? How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others we already waste too much money on foreign aid.
All a matter of getting our priorities correct.
So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?
Nice.
YEP
Hitler had it right - see to his own people first
Couple of wee problems with this. Firstly, rather a lot of his own people ended up in mass graves just because they had a different outlook on life. Then secondly he proceeded to invade as many countries as possible, which was not in the best interests of his people - it literally split the country for 50 years."Sorry I really don't mean to divert from the serious content of your message - but it did make me chuckle how you condensed history into this small paragraph. A bit like the "Horrible History Books" | |||
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"To those who feel MOST are coming her for financial gain, I understand your point of _iew as this is all that's in the media. It creates emotion in us, patriotism. Go do some research for yourselves from reputable sources, not newspapers (think who the media works in best interest for). You may change your opinion, you may not. But at least you'll be better equipped to have a knowledgeable opinion. " What a great point to make! | |||
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"Another thought....all you lovely, nice, charitable people who maintain that "we" should help.... Would you personally sponsor a refugee/immigrant to cover his/her living costs here ? Maybe put one up in your spare room and feed and cloth them ? Maybe be happy for government to impose an extra few percent on your tax bill to cover the costs ? its nice to try and claim the moral high ground...until it starts costing you personally.... British Red Cross supporter!
And since tax money has played a part in the chaos and displacement of many of these people's lives. what's a few extra pounds to clear up the mess?"This is absolutely true. We caused the mess and therefore have a legal, moral and ethical obligation to sort out the consequences. | |||
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"Dirty Girl give a kid a bed on your on a sex site you might be getting your self in trouble there be careful what you sday Are you fucking serious?!
Like really? Did you just say that out loud?
You are a poor excuse for a human being and quite frankly I've got nothing else to say that even remotely describes my feelings on you. "I'm glad you caught it in time before they removed it.... god that is in poor taste to think that anyone would find that remotely acceptable in the first place...... | |||
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"To those who feel MOST are coming her for financial gain, I understand your point of _iew as this is all that's in the media. It creates emotion in us, patriotism. Go do some research for yourselves from reputable sources, not newspapers (think who the media works in best interest for). You may change your opinion, you may not. But at least you'll be better equipped to have a knowledgeable opinion. What a great point to make! "the issue is that the media (well the newspapers) are fuelling their own case to put forward their own narrative... dirty foreigners coming over here, stealing our jobs... bloody immigrants... so let me put forward another example which is a lot closer to home for me... my mum and her side of the family come from a small carribean island called montserrat..... now, 15 years ago a volcano that had been dormant for 500 years came back to life and basically made half the island uninhabitable and forced 2/3 of the islands population to flee.... a lot of people has family and relatives in the UK as it is an british overseas territory so where do you think most of those people wanted to come to..... the UK and about 7000 ish came... and they didn't claim benefits, most got jobs and went to school here, and are still being productive members of society here would you have treated these people as refugees (who lost everything thru no fault of their own) the same as a lot of people who have treated now? you could have put them in refugee camps in the next island over i suppose! | |||
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"This isn't a point about whether we should help or not, but i take exception with idea "we" created the problems they are fleeing from. Anyone who seriously believes this would do well to read non-partisan analysis of the subject such as "why nations fail" by Acemoglu & Robinson or "the Bottom Billion" by Paul Collier. Allow me to demostrate: Imagine if we did an experiment. We take two poor countries with the same geography, same language, same history, some income levels, same education - same everything. Then we give one of them a good government and one of them a bad government. In 50-years would the government factor make a difference or would they both still be poor? In other words - are their problems within their own grasp to solve? Now go look at North and South Korea and that's your answer. " Rubbish. We directly created the power vacuum by removing Saddam and installing a weak Shia led Government in Baghdad. Further, we have armed anti Assad rebels who have since collaborated with ISIS and more recently we got rid of Gaddafi. These actions have directly resulted in the ability of IS to seize vast swathes of land in Syria, Iraq and Libya. These people are fleeing IS and we enabled IS to flourish. Your books talk about a theory but this history is so recent and so obvious that the consequences of our well intentioned actions have been disastrous for millions of people. | |||
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"To those who feel MOST are coming her for financial gain, I understand your point of _iew as this is all that's in the media. It creates emotion in us, patriotism. Go do some research for yourselves from reputable sources, not newspapers (think who the media works in best interest for). You may change your opinion, you may not. But at least you'll be better equipped to have a knowledgeable opinion. What a great point to make!
the issue is that the media (well the newspapers) are fuelling their own case to put forward their own narrative... dirty foreigners coming over here, stealing our jobs... bloody immigrants...
so let me put forward another example which is a lot closer to home for me...
my mum and her side of the family come from a small carribean island called montserrat..... now, 15 years ago a volcano that had been dormant for 500 years came back to life and basically made half the island uninhabitable and forced 2/3 of the islands population to flee....
a lot of people has family and relatives in the UK as it is an british overseas territory so where do you think most of those people wanted to come to..... the UK
and about 7000 ish came... and they didn't claim benefits, most got jobs and went to school here, and are still being productive members of society here
would you have treated these people as refugees (who lost everything thru no fault of their own) the same as a lot of people who have treated now? you could have put them in refugee camps in the next island over i suppose! "I fully support what you are saying - perhaps it is difficult to see that unless you have been a refugee or know somebody personally who has been. | |||
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"There does seem to be a lot of people who are awfully keen to help.... Offering cash....offering accomodation in their own houses.... Etc..... Have u ever considered the adoption lists of children already in this country looking for a home...or the kids/young adults looking for foster parents or a safe enviroment to live in...or the many homeless already on our streets....children and adults.... I assume you are all long term supporters of these vunerable people too & have one living in your spare room ? Maybe you work on a voluntary soup kitchen ? " Perhaps some of us are supporters of vulnerable people, some of us do work in soup kitchens. There are a lot of assumptions being made about what people are prepared to do for others, or rather, as the case may be, what people are not doing. | |||
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"We directly created the power vacuum by removing Saddam and installing a weak Shia led Government in Baghdad. Further, we have armed anti Assad rebels who have since collaborated with ISIS and more recently we got rid of Gaddafi. These actions have directly resulted in the ability of IS to seize vast swathes of land in Syria, Iraq and Libya. These people are fleeing IS and we enabled IS to flourish. Your books talk about a theory but this history is so recent and so obvious that the consequences of our well intentioned actions have been disastrous for millions of people." this.. and with this still fairly recent fuck up of a foreign policy the history books have yet to be scribed and when they are they will be less than gracious to some 'leader's and ex leader's'.. | |||
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"This isn't a point about whether we should help or not, but i take exception with idea "we" created the problems they are fleeing from. Anyone who seriously believes this would do well to read non-partisan analysis of the subject such as "why nations fail" by Acemoglu & Robinson or "the Bottom Billion" by Paul Collier. Allow me to demostrate: Imagine if we did an experiment. We take two poor countries with the same geography, same language, same history, some income levels, same education - same everything. Then we give one of them a good government and one of them a bad government. In 50-years would the government factor make a difference or would they both still be poor? In other words - are their problems within their own grasp to solve? Now go look at North and South Korea and that's your answer. Rubbish. We directly created the power vacuum by removing Saddam and installing a weak Shia led Government in Baghdad. Further, we have armed anti Assad rebels who have since collaborated with ISIS and more recently we got rid of Gaddafi. These actions have directly resulted in the ability of IS to seize vast swathes of land in Syria, Iraq and Libya. These people are fleeing IS and we enabled IS to flourish. Your books talk about a theory but this history is so recent and so obvious that the consequences of our well intentioned actions have been disastrous for millions of people." Sure! - agree actually, but what you're talking about is exacerbating an existing problem, not creating a new one. I do believe there were plenty of refugees who wanted to get away from Saddam & Gaddafi long before the events you're talking about. Sure our interventions sometimes make things worse, sometimes they make it a lot better (e.g. Kosovo) but I don't remember when we last intervened in a country that wasn't already screwed before we got there? It's the term 'created' I dislike... | |||
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"They who went on the train is going to refugee camps. " the pictures sky are showing are really sad....... i don't think the people ar the station realise at the moment that the authorities have stopped all international trains at the moment... (there is normally one for munich every 2 hours...) | |||
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"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East. The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!) The is a global problem, that needs UN leadership to solve. The problem to solve is the one of national warfare spreading across borders. Most people are perfectly happy to stay in their own country if it is safe, secure and enables them to eat, educate, work, worship as they please. I am not going to get into whether Balkan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libyan, Syrian intervention was right or wrong. Pointing the finger at people in the past achieves very little in terms of solving this problem. What I think we need is to re-build the countries that people are fleeing from, to recognise it will be costly (in terms of money and sadly also lives, indeed many are already being lost) but the problem has to be fixed at source. It also needs us to see this as an investment as otherwise we simply absorb more and more people fleeing brutal regimes. So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound "This is the first comment I have seen (and I may have missed some, apologies if I have) where there is a concrete suggestion ie to rebuild the countries. | |||
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"They who went on the train is going to refugee camps. the pictures sky are showing are really sad....... i don't think the people ar the station realise at the moment that the authorities have stopped all international trains at the moment... (there is normally one for munich every 2 hours...)" That's right, was pretty sad that, it reminds me of ww2, with them camps thinking they went to Germany but they didn't, instead to camps. | |||
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"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East. The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!) The is a global problem, that needs UN leadership to solve. The problem to solve is the one of national warfare spreading across borders. Most people are perfectly happy to stay in their own country if it is safe, secure and enables them to eat, educate, work, worship as they please. I am not going to get into whether Balkan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libyan, Syrian intervention was right or wrong. Pointing the finger at people in the past achieves very little in terms of solving this problem. What I think we need is to re-build the countries that people are fleeing from, to recognise it will be costly (in terms of money and sadly also lives, indeed many are already being lost) but the problem has to be fixed at source. It also needs us to see this as an investment as otherwise we simply absorb more and more people fleeing brutal regimes. So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound "So much truth and then you blew it by saying the UN needs solve this! The UN's track record of helping refugees is absolutely shameful, 800,000 Rwandans would agree if they could. Don't get me started on Ethiopia and Congo. UN moves too slowly, doesn't have the resources or the balls to solve this. Sorry to say. I wish they did. | |||
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"Reject as there county's became like they are because of the people that live there, so really the hosts country will end up the same. Better off fixing the problems in there country." Actually a lot of these countries became the way they are due to funding or sanctions applied by the richer countries like the US, Russia, and, err, us. We can't just so 'Oh dear, how sad'and turn away. We have some responsibility here. | |||
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"There are enough people in our OWN country that are in need of help. Ex service personnel - these people that have served our country that need help with things such as artificial limbs,help with depression,housing etc etc. What about these poor young teens that have run away from home because of abuse that are living on the streets - give them help. Or cancer patients that need certain meds that ere 'too expensive' ???? How about seeing that are OWN people are cared for before worrying about others we already waste too much money on foreign aid.
All a matter of getting our priorities correct.
So, taking it logically, your point is that every person in the UK should be completely financially secure before we help a single foreign person fleeing war or persecution?
Nice.
YEP
Hitler had it right - see to his own people first "Can't explain how much that disgusts me. Wow, what a slap in the face to all those who died in WW2. | |||
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"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East. The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!) The is a global problem, that needs UN leadership to solve. The problem to solve is the one of national warfare spreading across borders. Most people are perfectly happy to stay in their own country if it is safe, secure and enables them to eat, educate, work, worship as they please. I am not going to get into whether Balkan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libyan, Syrian intervention was right or wrong. Pointing the finger at people in the past achieves very little in terms of solving this problem. What I think we need is to re-build the countries that people are fleeing from, to recognise it will be costly (in terms of money and sadly also lives, indeed many are already being lost) but the problem has to be fixed at source. It also needs us to see this as an investment as otherwise we simply absorb more and more people fleeing brutal regimes. So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound
So much truth and then you blew it by saying the UN needs solve this! The UN's track record of helping refugees is absolutely shameful, 800,000 Rwandans would agree if they could. Don't get me started on Ethiopia and Congo.
UN moves too slowly, doesn't have the resources or the balls to solve this. Sorry to say. I wish they did. "I agree the UN is patently useless, but the alternative of a US or EU led solution on its own will not have the necessary global support and has the potential to position any intervention as the 'baddies'. Wish I knew a better answer | |||
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"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East. The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!) The is a global problem, that needs UN leadership to solve. The problem to solve is the one of national warfare spreading across borders. Most people are perfectly happy to stay in their own country if it is safe, secure and enables them to eat, educate, work, worship as they please. I am not going to get into whether Balkan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libyan, Syrian intervention was right or wrong. Pointing the finger at people in the past achieves very little in terms of solving this problem. What I think we need is to re-build the countries that people are fleeing from, to recognise it will be costly (in terms of money and sadly also lives, indeed many are already being lost) but the problem has to be fixed at source. It also needs us to see this as an investment as otherwise we simply absorb more and more people fleeing brutal regimes. So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound "Yes I agree with what you say and there have always been brutal Regimes to fuel this problem but of Course the numbers of refugees have grown over the years from such places, these brutal regimes over time have caused mayhem where ever they are in the world if not for them we would not Have the problems we have in the world Or nearer to home, thou I cannot see another solution to Intervention have We the resources long term to deal with that? because we are in fact trying to solve these problems by ourselves then, we would need a International effort from around the World to help, because if its not handled properly it could soon escalate into something far bigger, and all these regimes no doubt will have radicals and crazys wanting to Exact revenge in reprisal,s like they often do in the world, but I do agree while ever evil exists it will always Cause mayhem from one source or another if its big enough, what a better world it would be without such monsters in it we all know that, but presently we have got the refugee flood of people trying to get away from such monsters, these are different times and the Immigration Crisis shows this. | |||
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"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East. The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!) The is a global problem, that needs UN leadership to solve. The problem to solve is the one of national warfare spreading across borders. Most people are perfectly happy to stay in their own country if it is safe, secure and enables them to eat, educate, work, worship as they please. I am not going to get into whether Balkan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libyan, Syrian intervention was right or wrong. Pointing the finger at people in the past achieves very little in terms of solving this problem. What I think we need is to re-build the countries that people are fleeing from, to recognise it will be costly (in terms of money and sadly also lives, indeed many are already being lost) but the problem has to be fixed at source. It also needs us to see this as an investment as otherwise we simply absorb more and more people fleeing brutal regimes. So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound
So much truth and then you blew it by saying the UN needs solve this! The UN's track record of helping refugees is absolutely shameful, 800,000 Rwandans would agree if they could. Don't get me started on Ethiopia and Congo.
UN moves too slowly, doesn't have the resources or the balls to solve this. Sorry to say. I wish they did.
I agree the UN is patently useless, but the alternative of a US or EU led solution on its own will not have the necessary global support and has the potential to position any intervention as the 'baddies'.
Wish I knew a better answer "I don't mean to be depressing but the last time that region was peaceful for any meaningful period was when the ottoman empire ruled it. You won't like what they did to keep it peaceful... Like it or not. In my opinion the 'answer' involves Saudi Arabia not the UN. Don't believe the media BS about them, yeah they aren't keep on women drivers - big whoop. The solution will come from within the region - they are the strongest military, an ally and they ain't Israel. They hate terrorists way more than we do (they have more to lose from it) and they have a much better track record of squashing domestic terrorism than us. | |||
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" Like it or not. In my opinion the 'answer' involves Saudi Arabia not the UN. Don't believe the media BS about them, yeah they aren't keep on women drivers - big whoop. The solution will come from within the region - they are the strongest military, an ally and they ain't Israel. They hate terrorists way more than we do (they have more to lose from it) and they have a much better track record of squashing domestic terrorism than us. " Rubbish, the Saudis high-tailed it out of Yemen as soon as the going got rough with al-qaeda. They don't have the bottle. Nothing will be done until the West does it. | |||
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"Have all the right-wingers gone back to work? "They do rotation; one hour commenting on the DM and then one hour on Fab, one hour on the Express and so on..... They'll be back at 3pm | |||
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"This isn't a point about whether we should help or not, but i take exception with idea "we" created the problems they are fleeing from. Anyone who seriously believes this would do well to read non-partisan analysis of the subject such as "why nations fail" by Acemoglu & Robinson or "the Bottom Billion" by Paul Collier. Allow me to demostrate: Imagine if we did an experiment. We take two poor countries with the same geography, same language, same history, some income levels, same education - same everything. Then we give one of them a good government and one of them a bad government. In 50-years would the government factor make a difference or would they both still be poor? In other words - are their problems within their own grasp to solve? Now go look at North and South Korea and that's your answer. Rubbish. We directly created the power vacuum by removing Saddam and installing a weak Shia led Government in Baghdad. Further, we have armed anti Assad rebels who have since collaborated with ISIS and more recently we got rid of Gaddafi. These actions have directly resulted in the ability of IS to seize vast swathes of land in Syria, Iraq and Libya. These people are fleeing IS and we enabled IS to flourish. Your books talk about a theory but this history is so recent and so obvious that the consequences of our well intentioned actions have been disastrous for millions of people. Sure! - agree actually, but what you're talking about is exacerbating an existing problem, not creating a new one. I do believe there were plenty of refugees who wanted to get away from Saddam & Gaddafi long before the events you're talking about. Sure our interventions sometimes make things worse, sometimes they make it a lot better (e.g. Kosovo) but I don't remember when we last intervened in a country that wasn't already screwed before we got there? It's the term 'created' I dislike... " You may not like the term "Created" but sadly that's what happened in some cases. It's never nice to feel indirectly responsible for things happening beyond our borders but Governments know best. Back to thread, We're not the only country in the world taking refugees in. But we're definitely among the top few grumbling about it like it's a major strain. Sad! | |||
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" Like it or not. In my opinion the 'answer' involves Saudi Arabia not the UN. Don't believe the media BS about them, yeah they aren't keep on women drivers - big whoop. The solution will come from within the region - they are the strongest military, an ally and they ain't Israel. They hate terrorists way more than we do (they have more to lose from it) and they have a much better track record of squashing domestic terrorism than us. Rubbish, the Saudis high-tailed it out of Yemen as soon as the going got rough with al-qaeda. They don't have the bottle. Nothing will be done until the West does it. " Well rubbish right back at you! I don't see how you can take 1 example that isn't even half a year old and claim the answer instead lies I'm with the West who haven't solved jack shit in the region in over 100 years of trying. | |||
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"Have all the right-wingers gone back to work?
They do rotation; one hour commenting on the DM and then one hour on Fab, one hour on the Express and so on.....
They'll be back at 3pm "It's sad. Oh well, in the meantime watch the last 10 mins of this (watch the whole thing, it's bloody brilliant, but the last 10 mins are pertinent). Frankie Boyle's Election Autopsy http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02qs82x/frankie-boyles-election-autopsy | |||
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"Have all the right-wingers gone back to work?
They do rotation; one hour commenting on the DM and then one hour on Fab, one hour on the Express and so on.....
They'll be back at 3pm
It's sad.
Oh well, in the meantime watch the last 10 mins of this (watch the whole thing, it's bloody brilliant, but the last 10 mins are pertinent).
Frankie Boyle's Election Autopsy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02qs82x/frankie-boyles-election-autopsy"Love Akala. Legend! | |||
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"Love Akala. Legend! "That nice white audience stopped fucking laughing then, didn't they? | |||
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"Have all the right-wingers gone back to work?
They do rotation; one hour commenting on the DM and then one hour on Fab, one hour on the Express and so on.....
They'll be back at 3pm
It's sad.
Oh well, in the meantime watch the last 10 mins of this (watch the whole thing, it's bloody brilliant, but the last 10 mins are pertinent).
Frankie Boyle's Election Autopsy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02qs82x/frankie-boyles-election-autopsy"I remember watching that at the time and thinking there will be people who just flatly deny that any of that is true. | |||
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"I remember watching that at the time and thinking there will be people who just flatly deny that any of that is true. " I sincerely hope so | |||
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"Open flood gates let everyone in theirs loads of room for them all I don't need a job let's face it the NHS can cope ,we have plenty social housing to house them in ,our schools are empty let's educate them too oh and why not support them all ,its not about the people that built our system and paid into it anymore its about humanitarianism but bottom line is its about governments that don't look after their own "
Tics feeding of a healthy animal.
We already have to many car washers and white van scrap people not paying there tax to help britan grow and flourish. Harsh but true they turned their country into what it is. | |||
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"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East. The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!) The is a global problem, that needs UN leadership to solve. The problem to solve is the one of national warfare spreading across borders. Most people are perfectly happy to stay in their own country if it is safe, secure and enables them to eat, educate, work, worship as they please. I am not going to get into whether Balkan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libyan, Syrian intervention was right or wrong. Pointing the finger at people in the past achieves very little in terms of solving this problem. What I think we need is to re-build the countries that people are fleeing from, to recognise it will be costly (in terms of money and sadly also lives, indeed many are already being lost) but the problem has to be fixed at source. It also needs us to see this as an investment as otherwise we simply absorb more and more people fleeing brutal regimes. So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound
So much truth and then you blew it by saying the UN needs solve this! The UN's track record of helping refugees is absolutely shameful, 800,000 Rwandans would agree if they could. Don't get me started on Ethiopia and Congo.
UN moves too slowly, doesn't have the resources or the balls to solve this. Sorry to say. I wish they did.
I agree the UN is patently useless, but the alternative of a US or EU led solution on its own will not have the necessary global support and has the potential to position any intervention as the 'baddies'.
Wish I knew a better answer
I don't mean to be depressing but the last time that region was peaceful for any meaningful period was when the ottoman empire ruled it. You won't like what they did to keep it peaceful...
Like it or not. In my opinion the 'answer' involves Saudi Arabia not the UN. Don't believe the media BS about them, yeah they aren't keep on women drivers - big whoop. The solution will come from within the region - they are the strongest military, an ally and they ain't Israel. They hate terrorists way more than we do (they have more to lose from it) and they have a much better track record of squashing domestic terrorism than us. "You want predominantly shia and/or other religious minorities to live in Saudi Arabia? | |||
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"Open flood gates let everyone in theirs loads of room for them all I don't need a job let's face it the NHS can cope ,we have plenty social housing to house them in ,our schools are empty let's educate them too oh and why not support them all ,its not about the people that built our system and paid into it anymore its about humanitarianism but bottom line is its about governments that don't look after their own
Tics feeding of a healthy animal.
We already have to many car washers and white van scrap people not paying there tax to help britan grow and flourish. Harsh but true they turned their country into what it is."Wrong. We turned their country into what it is. It was not that long ago that you can't remember surely. | |||
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"Clearly we should do all we can to help people who are refugees of IS and the disaster they are creating in Africa and the Middle East. The challenge we have to face is that it will not be solved by purely accepting limitless resetlement of refugees in Europe (UK included!) The is a global problem, that needs UN leadership to solve. The problem to solve is the one of national warfare spreading across borders. Most people are perfectly happy to stay in their own country if it is safe, secure and enables them to eat, educate, work, worship as they please. I am not going to get into whether Balkan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libyan, Syrian intervention was right or wrong. Pointing the finger at people in the past achieves very little in terms of solving this problem. What I think we need is to re-build the countries that people are fleeing from, to recognise it will be costly (in terms of money and sadly also lives, indeed many are already being lost) but the problem has to be fixed at source. It also needs us to see this as an investment as otherwise we simply absorb more and more people fleeing brutal regimes. So yes help people all we can, but i don't for one minute think this is going to be resolved without some form of intervention..., as appalling as this may sound
So much truth and then you blew it by saying the UN needs solve this! The UN's track record of helping refugees is absolutely shameful, 800,000 Rwandans would agree if they could. Don't get me started on Ethiopia and Congo.
UN moves too slowly, doesn't have the resources or the balls to solve this. Sorry to say. I wish they did.
I agree the UN is patently useless, but the alternative of a US or EU led solution on its own will not have the necessary global support and has the potential to position any intervention as the 'baddies'.
Wish I knew a better answer
I don't mean to be depressing but the last time that region was peaceful for any meaningful period was when the ottoman empire ruled it. You won't like what they did to keep it peaceful...
Like it or not. In my opinion the 'answer' involves Saudi Arabia not the UN. Don't believe the media BS about them, yeah they aren't keep on women drivers - big whoop. The solution will come from within the region - they are the strongest military, an ally and they ain't Israel. They hate terrorists way more than we do (they have more to lose from it) and they have a much better track record of squashing domestic terrorism than us.
You want predominantly shia and/or other religious minorities to live in Saudi Arabia?"That's not what I said and to be honest I'm confused how you even got to that conclusion! | |||
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" Harsh but true they turned their country into what it is." Are all the people of Northern Ireland responsible for the Troubles? | |||
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"Open flood gates let everyone in theirs loads of room for them all I don't need a job let's face it the NHS can cope ,we have plenty social housing to house them in ,our schools are empty let's educate them too oh and why not support them all ,its not about the people that built our system and paid into it anymore its about humanitarianism but bottom line is its about governments that don't look after their own
Tics feeding of a healthy animal.
We already have to many car washers and white van scrap people not paying there tax to help britan grow and flourish. Harsh but true they turned their country into what it is."It's spelt "Ticks" but....Wow. | |||
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" YEP
Hitler had it right - see to his own people first "I have to say that I am horrified to have read this, and saddened. | |||
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" YEP
Hitler had it right - see to his own people first
I have to say that I am horrified to have read this, and saddened. "I know, right? It's sommat else. | |||
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"Love Akala. Legend!
That nice white audience stopped fucking laughing then, didn't they?"Bit of an eye opener!  | |||
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"Again, an assumption that all refugees are ill educated and become car washers... not so! Many of them (unfortunately, often because they might have been a little better off than others in their own country before they were forced to leave to survive!)... may of them are very skilled, some have university degrees, speak several languages etc so can become employable within a few months. I have seen it! I know a few families where parents and children are not just bi - but trilingual, well mannered and educated! Assumptions really do not help anybody! " Great post...its the reading of these right wing scare mongering newspapers that gives that _iew..not many on here will do jobs like they do | |||
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Some of the comments on this topic over the last couple of days have been utterly shameful. I understand that everyone is entitled to an opinion but take a moment to remove all the politics. The people (yes people) who need help, simply need help. They're facing horrendous traumas on a daily basis and the lack of any empathy from some of my fellow humans makes me ashamed to stand beside you.
Strip away the politics, would you stand by and watch someone drown in front of you when you had the power to save them? Would you check whether they have a UK passport before you got your feet wet? I'd like to think the answer to that is no, that you'd jump in and help them without question.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and (perhaps naively) continue to think that you wouldn't turn your back and walk away. That could be your loved one. Regardless of circumstances, if they were drowning you'd hope that someone who is able to help would help rather than stand by and watch. | |||
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"Again, an assumption that all refugees are ill educated and become car washers... not so! Many of them (unfortunately, often because they might have been a little better off than others in their own country before they were forced to leave to survive!)... may of them are very skilled, some have university degrees, speak several languages etc so can become employable within a few months. I have seen it! I know a few families where parents and children are not just bi - but trilingual, well mannered and educated! Assumptions really do not help anybody! " same as many english people who cannot get work then | |||
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"What can be done" Nothing can be done at the minute apart from mitigating the effects by offering people refuge. Were there chances in the past 5 years to intervene in a way that may have lessened what has happened? Probably. There are no too many variables. | |||
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