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Why no god?
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 They don't have to be clever reasons... I'm just looking for your honest answer. Oh, and I know I'm one to talk  ... but please don't write a massive essay listing all the reasons lol. I'd like to know which feels the most important  | |||
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"What did people identify and name God in the first place?" well according to the Theory they didn't... God did | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing?" Anything tangible or measurable would be a good start. | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing? Anything tangible or measurable would be a good start." A tangible and measurable what? Are you expecting God to be a creature of some sort? Like Affectionate said. Or are you waiting for a really weird miracle? If evidence is missing you must have some comprehension of what that is. I mean... if you don't that's cool... but I just assumed you would | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing?" That's exactly it though, I'm not looking. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in the bible. I think I'm a decent person, I know right from wrong, I'm kind to others and I don't need a book to tell me how I should/should not behave. Religion would not make me a better person. My parents made me a good person. I don't need to go higher. | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing? That's exactly it though, I'm not looking. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in the bible. I think I'm a decent person, I know right from wrong, I'm kind to others and I don't need a book to tell me how I should/should not behave. Religion would not make me a better person. My parents made me a good person. I don't need to go higher. "Couldn't of put it better  | |||
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"It is really very simple. Everyone is born atheist. The belief in any particular deity is therefore just social conditioning. If you claim to believe in a deity I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." Ok... so if I didn't dismiss everyone else's gods you would accept there might be a god? Me tinks you might have a better reason than that lol | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing? Anything tangible or measurable would be a good start. A tangible and measurable what? Are you expecting God to be a creature of some sort? Like Affectionate said. Or are you waiting for a really weird miracle? If evidence is missing you must have some comprehension of what that is. I mean... if you don't that's cool... but I just assumed you would "A tangible or measurable anything. There won't be, though. Faith relies on a "leap" therof - i.e. to suspend your disbelief, which I won't do. | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing? That's exactly it though, I'm not looking. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in the bible. I think I'm a decent person, I know right from wrong, I'm kind to others and I don't need a book to tell me how I should/should not behave. Religion would not make me a better person. My parents made me a good person. I don't need to go higher. "These are all good points. Just a hypothetical for you though. If you found out that you were adopted and that your real parents had been trying to find you all these years... would you be equally disinterested in them as you are in the existence of your creator? Not trying to proselytize or be critical of you... just trying to see if these conceptual dots connect in your mind or not | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing? That's exactly it though, I'm not looking. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in the bible. I think I'm a decent person, I know right from wrong, I'm kind to others and I don't need a book to tell me how I should/should not behave. Religion would not make me a better person. My parents made me a good person. I don't need to go higher.
These are all good points. Just a hypothetical for you though. If you found out that you were adopted and that your real parents had been trying to find you all these years... would you be equally disinterested in them as you are in the existence of your creator? Not trying to proselytize or be critical of you... just trying to see if these conceptual dots connect in your mind or not"The parents would be the creator no thing else its called evolution bro | |||
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"Me tinks you might have a better reason than that lol "It's pretty simple; I don't believe in fairies, pink unicorns or gods in the sky or anywhere else) because they don't exist. End of story as far as I'm concerned. The point above is that if you choose just to believe in one god out of the many thousands you are almost atheist as me. | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing? That's exactly it though, I'm not looking. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in the bible. I think I'm a decent person, I know right from wrong, I'm kind to others and I don't need a book to tell me how I should/should not behave. Religion would not make me a better person. My parents made me a good person. I don't need to go higher.
These are all good points. Just a hypothetical for you though. If you found out that you were adopted and that your real parents had been trying to find you all these years... would you be equally disinterested in them as you are in the existence of your creator? Not trying to proselytize or be critical of you... just trying to see if these conceptual dots connect in your mind or not"To be fair, thats one of the shittest analogies I have read in some time. | |||
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"I appreciate that atheists don't believe in a god for a number of reasons... but what one reason, above all others, do you class as the most important to you? " I don't believe in religion simply because I don't feel my life needs it. I accept others find it important and that their faith gives them strength and succour in times of hardship, but personally I am fine without it. Why is atheist's lack of faith so important to you? Mr ddc | |||
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"Just a hypothetical for you though. If you found out that you were adopted and that your real parents had been trying to find you all these years... would you be equally disinterested in them as you are in the existence of your creator? " Note the wording 'REAL' i.e, parents who actually exist whereas on the other hand there is no such thing as a creator. | |||
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" To be fair, thats one of the shittest analogies I have read in some time. " | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing? Anything tangible or measurable would be a good start. A tangible and measurable what? Are you expecting God to be a creature of some sort? Like Affectionate said. Or are you waiting for a really weird miracle? If evidence is missing you must have some comprehension of what that is. I mean... if you don't that's cool... but I just assumed you would
A tangible or measurable anything.
There won't be, though. Faith relies on a "leap" therof - i.e. to suspend your disbelief, which I won't do. "Surely if a god exists it must... exist... and that means science should theoretically be able to present some proof of it. But it seems like you really have no idea of what that proof would be. How do you know that proof hasn't already been found but no one recognised it? I mean... if you don't know what you're looking for it is a possibility right? | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing? That's exactly it though, I'm not looking. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in the bible. I think I'm a decent person, I know right from wrong, I'm kind to others and I don't need a book to tell me how I should/should not behave. Religion would not make me a better person. My parents made me a good person. I don't need to go higher.
These are all good points. Just a hypothetical for you though. If you found out that you were adopted and that your real parents had been trying to find you all these years... would you be equally disinterested in them as you are in the existence of your creator? Not trying to proselytize or be critical of you... just trying to see if these conceptual dots connect in your mind or not"That's just biology. The person who gave birth to me (my Mum) and the sperm which helped (belonging to my Dad) are my creators. If they told me that I was adopted then I would want to meet my biological parents but the two people who brought me up, my parents, will always be my Mum & Dad. They did a fine job (even if I do say so myself)  so I don't feel the need to look for or believe in something else.
I can't help that you may choose to believe that's not the case. It's your choice. My dots are perfectly fine in my world, I will continue to believe that your parents were your creators as mine created me cause that's exactly what happened.
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" The point above is that if you choose just to believe in one god out of the many thousands you are almost atheist as me."
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" Surely if a god exists it must... exist... and that means science should theoretically be able to present some proof of it." I refer you to Russell's teapot Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time. | |||
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" Surely if a god exists it must... exist... and that means science should theoretically be able to present some proof of it. I refer you to Russell's teapot Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time." That is a s confusing as Schroedingers Cat | |||
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" Surely if a god exists it must... exist... and that means science should theoretically be able to present some proof of it. But it seems like you really have no idea of what that proof would be. How do you know that proof hasn't already been found but no one recognised it? I mean... if you don't know what you're looking for it is a possibility right?" You appear to not to even be aware of what 'proof' entails. If you cannot disprove a theory, then you accept it. As I said - it's a "burden of proof" thing. | |||
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"Interesting to see some people don't mentally connect the dots of my hypothetical about real parents. Presumably you are all aware that theists claim that god created us. I know you don't believe in such a story... and that's why you disagree with it. But my curiosity was to see if someone who's main reason for not believing was disinterest also understood what theists claim is at issue." No, the dots were connected, (it was fairly obvious what you were saying, you aren't a genius) its just that it the analogy was utterly flawed on so many levels. Others have felt sorry enough for you that they have started to point out what those reasons actually were. | |||
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"Presumably you are all aware that theists claim that god created us." Not necessarily. Not all faiths believe God created the physical world. | |||
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" But my curiosity was to see if someone who's main reason for not believing was disinterest also understood what theists claim is at issue." As far as I can see it is you not joining the dots. As an atheist it is simple god doesn't exist, as I pointed out it is the de facto position of new born babies. Thus there is nothing to understand about theists other than the fact that they find comfort in their delusions (for a whole variety of reasons). If they find comfort in their particular imaginary friend; it's not a problem. It is a problem when it is presented to vulnerable young minds as a factual truth. | |||
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" Surely if a god exists it must... exist... and that means science should theoretically be able to present some proof of it. I refer you to Russell's teapot Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time." I think you're confusing me. I'm not asking you to prove god's non-existance. I'm asking you what you would count as proof of god's existence. Bertrands answer to his teapot scenario is simple... if we found a teapot floating in space that would class as proof of a teapot floating in space. What's maddening about this is that I'm not even trying to make a point. I'm actually trying to decipher what it is you guys are looking for... but it seems none of you even know what evidence of god would look like. I mean its like saying you don't believe in marzipan. You wouldn't even know it if you saw it  | |||
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"Without wishing to offend anyone the idea of a magic being just creating everything is complete bollocks in my opinion." Couldn't have said it better | |||
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"Presumably you are all aware that theists claim that god created us. Not necessarily. Not all faiths believe God created the physical world. " I'd be fascinated to know which | |||
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" I'd be fascinated to know which" One general doctrine agreed upon by Buddhists is: "We do not believe that this world is created and ruled by a God." However, disbelief in a creator God does not mean that Buddhism is atheistic. | |||
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" Surely if a god exists it must... exist... and that means science should theoretically be able to present some proof of it. But it seems like you really have no idea of what that proof would be. How do you know that proof hasn't already been found but no one recognised it? I mean... if you don't know what you're looking for it is a possibility right? You appear to not to even be aware of what 'proof' entails. If you cannot disprove a theory, then you accept it. As I said - it's a "burden of proof" thing. " If you can neither prove nor disprove a theory then it is unfalsifiable and unscientific. For your own stance to be scientific you need to give me an example of how I might be able to falsify you. | |||
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"Some people's reasons seem to be "because its a load of bollocks" which, as I'm sure we're all aware, isn't a reason why you think its all a load of bollocks its merely an acknowledgment that you believe its a load of bollocks. Try and answer the question guys "Burden of proof. It's on the person making any particular assertion to provide reasons why their assertion is the truth, not the other way round. | |||
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" Surely if a god exists it must... exist... and that means science should theoretically be able to present some proof of it. But it seems like you really have no idea of what that proof would be. How do you know that proof hasn't already been found but no one recognised it? I mean... if you don't know what you're looking for it is a possibility right? You appear to not to even be aware of what 'proof' entails. If you cannot disprove a theory, then you accept it. As I said - it's a "burden of proof" thing. If you can neither prove nor disprove a theory then it is unfalsifiable and unscientific. For your own stance to be scientific you need to give me an example of how I might be able to falsify you." No, I really don't. again "burden of proof". | |||
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"Some people's reasons seem to be "because its a load of bollocks" which, as I'm sure we're all aware, isn't a reason why you think its all a load of bollocks its merely an acknowledgment that you believe its a load of bollocks. Try and answer the question guys "I'm curious as to why it bothers you that we don't believe? You asked a question and I answered it, yet you're not satisfied by that. | |||
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" I'd be fascinated to know which One general doctrine agreed upon by Buddhists is: "We do not believe that this world is created and ruled by a God." However, disbelief in a creator God does not mean that Buddhism is atheistic." I am aware of no gods other than oneself in Buddhism. | |||
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"Presumably you are all aware that theists claim that god created us. Not necessarily. Not all faiths believe God created the physical world. I'd be fascinated to know which" Gnostics, Cathars to name just two. Most were persecuted out of existance by the early Catholic church. | |||
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"Some people's reasons seem to be "because its a load of bollocks" which, as I'm sure we're all aware, isn't a reason why you think its all a load of bollocks its merely an acknowledgment that you believe its a load of bollocks. Try and answer the question guys
I'm curious as to why it bothers you that we don't believe? You asked a question and I answered it, yet you're not satisfied by that. "Oh don't get me wrong Dirty. It doesn't bother me at all. Live and let live. I'm merely trying to get at people's reasons. Its intriguing. I was satisfied by your answer. It's other people who are merely writing that its bollocks without explain why its bollocks that I was talking about. | |||
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" I'm curious as to why it bothers you that we don't believe? You asked a question and I answered it, yet you're not satisfied by that. "That's what I asked too, but I didn't get an answer either. | |||
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"Some people's reasons seem to be "because its a load of bollocks" which, as I'm sure we're all aware, isn't a reason why you think its all a load of bollocks its merely an acknowledgment that you believe its a load of bollocks. Try and answer the question guys
I'm curious as to why it bothers you that we don't believe? You asked a question and I answered it, yet you're not satisfied by that.
Oh don't get me wrong Dirty. It doesn't bother me at all. Live and let live. I'm merely trying to get at people's reasons. Its intriguing. I was satisfied by your answer. It's other people who are merely writing that its bollocks without explain why its bollocks that I was talking about."Excellent. I'm happy that I answered your question. Now I shall retire back to my usual 'avoid politics and religion' threads. | |||
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"Presumably you are all aware that theists claim that god created us. Not necessarily. Not all faiths believe God created the physical world. I'd be fascinated to know which Gnostics, Cathars to name just two. Most were persecuted out of existance by the early Catholic church. " My understanding was that both these were dualist, is that right? This involves one creator god who creates everything and another that destroys everything. Is that right? If so there is still a creator concept in there. | |||
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"Quite simply put, if I can see it or I can touch it then I believe it's real. In the case of God (whatever or whoever you may believe he/she/it is) neither of those things apply so I don't believe." This | |||
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"Some people's reasons seem to be "because its a load of bollocks" which, as I'm sure we're all aware, isn't a reason why you think its all a load of bollocks its merely an acknowledgment that you believe its a load of bollocks. Try and answer the question guys
I'm curious as to why it bothers you that we don't believe? You asked a question and I answered it, yet you're not satisfied by that.
Oh don't get me wrong Dirty. It doesn't bother me at all. Live and let live. I'm merely trying to get at people's reasons. Its intriguing. I was satisfied by your answer. It's other people who are merely writing that its bollocks without explain why its bollocks that I was talking about."Oh - I misunderstood. Its Bollocks that you're talking about. Now they are gods I can relate to. | |||
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" I am aware of no gods other than oneself in Buddhism." There are plenty, Google if you want to check. | |||
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" Surely if a god exists it must... exist... and that means science should theoretically be able to present some proof of it. But it seems like you really have no idea of what that proof would be. How do you know that proof hasn't already been found but no one recognised it? I mean... if you don't know what you're looking for it is a possibility right? You appear to not to even be aware of what 'proof' entails. If you cannot disprove a theory, then you accept it. As I said - it's a "burden of proof" thing. If you can neither prove nor disprove a theory then it is unfalsifiable and unscientific. For your own stance to be scientific you need to give me an example of how I might be able to falsify you. No, I really don't. again "burden of proof". " lol Jimi you've got your burden of proof argument upside down. If I argue that a time machine exists somewhere. I have the burden of proof to prove it does. It's not on your shoulders to prove it doesn't. However, if I then produce a fully working time machine... that means that amazingly I have proven it exists. The burden is on my sholders... but I want to know what that burden is... what have I got to do? What have I got to present you with? | |||
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" The burden is on my sholders... but I want to know what that burden is... what have I got to do? What have I got to present you with?" A big voice in the sky? A modern day set on unarguable miracles Proof that any of that shit actually happened?? Sorry if that sounds rude. I'm happy for anyone who has faith I hope it guides you and gives you purpose. I don't need it, I'm happy as a wandering soul making my own way. To me religions are at best moralistic stories told to make you live life in a good way | |||
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And some who simply dislike the Faiths so badly that they don't believe in god either.
Is that a fair overview? I'm really not trying to belittle or counter anyone's views... I'm just curious to see what they are. Thanks | |||
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"My child's death killed any belief i had and my grandparents getting cancer all the horrible shitty things that happen what God would allow that?? all religion is a work of fiction in my eyes and nothing anybody can say would change my mind " I'm so sorry to hear about your terrible losses. I completely sympathise with your reasons here | |||
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"Jainism also believes the universe is eternal and has no need for a creator deity." Jainism is atheist. It has no gods. | |||
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"Lol while we're on a roll with all these god-themed threads... I appreciate that atheists don't believe in a god for a number of reasons... but what one reason, above all others, do you class as the most important to you? I am interested in reasons which, if they turned out to be wrong... you would reconsider Theism. This is a thread for atheists to clarify their views. Theists... please resist the urge to argue back, I promise I won't They don't have to be clever reasons... I'm just looking for your honest answer. Oh, and I know I'm one to talk ... but please don't write a massive essay listing all the reasons lol. I'd like to know which feels the most important "To give an honest answer, It would help me immeasurably if you could define god  | |||
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" The burden is on my sholders... but I want to know what that burden is... what have I got to do? What have I got to present you with? A big voice in the sky? A modern day set on unarguable miracles Proof that any of that shit actually happened?? Sorry if that sounds rude. I'm happy for anyone who has faith I hope it guides you and gives you purpose. I don't need it, I'm happy as a wandering soul making my own way. To me religions are at best moralistic stories told to make you live life in a good way" Yippeee I'll take your big voice from the sky thanks. As for the proof of history... I'd say that could be faked.. so you're really looking for an audible voice that suddenly blurts out some sentence and everyone around you hears it. Sound about right? Hmm I'm already thinking megaphone here lol | |||
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"Presumably you are all aware that theists claim that god created us. Not necessarily. Not all faiths believe God created the physical world. I'd be fascinated to know which Gnostics, Cathars to name just two. Most were persecuted out of existance by the early Catholic church. My understanding was that both these were dualist, is that right? This involves one creator god who creates everything and another that destroys everything. Is that right? If so there is still a creator concept in there." No, They generally believe that the world is so full of evil that it couldn't have been created by a benevolent god, hence.it was created by the devil. In effect the world is our hell, and we can only escape it by living a 'godly' life. But phone now down to 3%, and wifi other side of hotel to charger, so I'll have to leave you to it. | |||
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" The burden is on my sholders... but I want to know what that burden is... what have I got to do? What have I got to present you with? A big voice in the sky? A modern day set on unarguable miracles Proof that any of that shit actually happened?? Sorry if that sounds rude. I'm happy for anyone who has faith I hope it guides you and gives you purpose. I don't need it, I'm happy as a wandering soul making my own way. To me religions are at best moralistic stories told to make you live life in a good way Yippeee I'll take your big voice from the sky thanks. As for the proof of history... I'd say that could be faked.. so you're really looking for an audible voice that suddenly blurts out some sentence and everyone around you hears it. Sound about right? Hmm I'm already thinking megaphone here lol "Haha yes I would be that guilable... | |||
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"Lol while we're on a roll with all these god-themed threads... I appreciate that atheists don't believe in a god for a number of reasons... but what one reason, above all others, do you class as the most important to you? I am interested in reasons which, if they turned out to be wrong... you would reconsider Theism. This is a thread for atheists to clarify their views. Theists... please resist the urge to argue back, I promise I won't They don't have to be clever reasons... I'm just looking for your honest answer. Oh, and I know I'm one to talk ... but please don't write a massive essay listing all the reasons lol. I'd like to know which feels the most important
To give an honest answer, It would help me immeasurably if you could define god
"Well the majority of Faiths which propose a god exists describe it as a spirit, life force, or consciousness that pervades the universe. They each have various tales they tell of anthropomorphised gods running about and doing this and that... but these are really just story telling devices. Judeo-Christians "Holy Spirit", Sikhs "All-pervasive Spirit", Hindus "All-pervading Spirit", Shinto etc "All-pervading life force". Does that help? | |||
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing?" well If There is a heaven and hell and thats the Place decided for us later on, the Afterlife which I believe in any phantoms or spirits seen where are they, are they free or lost souls bad or good, they would be Able to tell you your only ever way of finding out while still a live on this Planet if there was a heaven or hell. | |||
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"Easy! Russel's Teapot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot "We did that earlier... its not the right answer. You say the burden of proof is on me... but what can I possibly present which would count as that proof? I'm happy to take that burden... but I need to know what proof you require. In Russell's case it was a teapot... what is it for you? | |||
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"Easy! Russel's Teapot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
We did that earlier... its not the right answer. You say the burden of proof is on me... but what can I possibly present which would count as that proof? I'm happy to take that burden... but I need to know what proof you require. In Russell's case it was a teapot... what is it for you?"Fine, be like that. "That which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof". | |||
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"Lol while we're on a roll with all these god-themed threads... I appreciate that atheists don't believe in a god for a number of reasons... but what one reason, above all others, do you class as the most important to you? I am interested in reasons which, if they turned out to be wrong... you would reconsider Theism. This is a thread for atheists to clarify their views. Theists... please resist the urge to argue back, I promise I won't They don't have to be clever reasons... I'm just looking for your honest answer. Oh, and I know I'm one to talk ... but please don't write a massive essay listing all the reasons lol. I'd like to know which feels the most important
To give an honest answer, It would help me immeasurably if you could define god
Well the majority of Faiths which propose a god exists describe it as a spirit, life force, or consciousness that pervades the universe. They each have various tales they tell of anthropomorphised gods running about and doing this and that... but these are really just story telling devices. Judeo-Christians "Holy Spirit", Sikhs "All-pervasive Spirit", Hindus "All-pervading Spirit", Shinto etc "All-pervading life force". Does that help?"I know how they define god - I would like to understand how you personally define god. | |||
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"The problem is OP your original question was not designed to obtain information but to allow you to point out in your view the errors in contributors views. Your question presupposes that there is a value in believing in a god and therefore there needs to be a good reason not to believe in god. The simple answer is that gods and the supernatural do not exist, no reason required not to believe. Do l believe in the greek gods, no because they are silly stories If you look over history at the assertions of the physical existence of god science has disproved that he exists. But theists keep looking for minor discrepencies in scientific tbeories to support the existence of god. They use poor analogies like your ones asif they were proof. Analogy are used to belp explain ideas there are not proof in themselves. The anology you used is weak because firstly it is an artificial construct to prove a point. Secondly the facts decribed even if true i.e. that an adopted child can have blood parents who love them without the child knowing the blood parent exist, still does not prove the existence of god. It is like biblical films being used as proof of god. They don't, they are no more than scripts devised to prove a point. " Hey Ozzz, Thanks for posting. Just so you know... I have in no way tried to argue for a god existing. If I had the thread would've looked very different. All I was looking for was clarity on what people felt was their reason for a god not existing. Some people gave reasons which didn't need extra exploring. It was quite obvious what they were getting at. Others suggested they were looking for evidence. I merely wanted to know what evidence they wanted, not what I wanted, what they wanted. That I think was just a question of clarity... not really a point I was making. I think the thread made it apparent that most of these people don't know what that evidence would be... which is curious as it suggests a kind of circular logic at play. They're looking for evidence of something that they don't know what evidence of it would look like because they have no evidence of it. It's kinda like saying you don't believe a jijipiz exists because there is no evidence of a jijipiz... and yet not even knowing what a jijipiz is nor what evidence of it would look like. This itself, nor any of the analogies or anything I wrote on this thread are arguments for a god existing. It is simply a summary of the arguments which have been presented. I'd say that the most sentient point that I have taken away from this thread is that most people who don't believe in God don't know what God is. This strikes me as merely an issue of education. Once people know what God is... then they will have better reasons for not believing in it | |||
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"Lol while we're on a roll with all these god-themed threads... I appreciate that atheists don't believe in a god for a number of reasons... but what one reason, above all others, do you class as the most important to you? I am interested in reasons which, if they turned out to be wrong... you would reconsider Theism. This is a thread for atheists to clarify their views. Theists... please resist the urge to argue back, I promise I won't They don't have to be clever reasons... I'm just looking for your honest answer. Oh, and I know I'm one to talk ... but please don't write a massive essay listing all the reasons lol. I'd like to know which feels the most important
To give an honest answer, It would help me immeasurably if you could define god
Well the majority of Faiths which propose a god exists describe it as a spirit, life force, or consciousness that pervades the universe. They each have various tales they tell of anthropomorphised gods running about and doing this and that... but these are really just story telling devices. Judeo-Christians "Holy Spirit", Sikhs "All-pervasive Spirit", Hindus "All-pervading Spirit", Shinto etc "All-pervading life force". Does that help?
I know how they define god - I would like to understand how you personally define god."The same... an All-pervasive spirit or consciousness | |||
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"Lol while we're on a roll with all these god-themed threads... I appreciate that atheists don't believe in a god for a number of reasons... but what one reason, above all others, do you class as the most important to you? I am interested in reasons which, if they turned out to be wrong... you would reconsider Theism. This is a thread for atheists to clarify their views. Theists... please resist the urge to argue back, I promise I won't They don't have to be clever reasons... I'm just looking for your honest answer. Oh, and I know I'm one to talk ... but please don't write a massive essay listing all the reasons lol. I'd like to know which feels the most important
To give an honest answer, It would help me immeasurably if you could define god
Well the majority of Faiths which propose a god exists describe it as a spirit, life force, or consciousness that pervades the universe. They each have various tales they tell of anthropomorphised gods running about and doing this and that... but these are really just story telling devices. Judeo-Christians "Holy Spirit", Sikhs "All-pervasive Spirit", Hindus "All-pervading Spirit", Shinto etc "All-pervading life force". Does that help?
I know how they define god - I would like to understand how you personally define god.
The same... an All-pervasive spirit or consciousness"I'm going to have to come back to this one, I'm at work soon. The points in your answer are two very different definitions. | |||
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"Easy! Russel's Teapot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
We did that earlier... its not the right answer. You say the burden of proof is on me... but what can I possibly present which would count as that proof? I'm happy to take that burden... but I need to know what proof you require. In Russell's case it was a teapot... what is it for you?
Fine, be like that.
"That which can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof"."Lol diamond and jimi... dudes you really need to get your heads around the burden of proof argument. It is my burden of proof to present proof of god. You have no burden to prove god doesn't exist. Just go check it out... that IS the burden of proof argument. So the point is... now that we've agreed that I have the burden of proof to need to prove that god exists... what is it you're willing to accept as being that proof. Do you require a miracle? A voice from the sky? Some kind of all knowing alien? Or is it something else you're looking for? This isn't an argument for a god... this is an honest question | |||
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"I'm going to have to come back to this one, I'm at work soon. The points in your answer are two very different definitions." I assume you're suggesting there's a difference between a spirit, life force, or consciousness. To me they're all ways of talking about the same thing. Curious to see what you make of it | |||
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"My child's death killed any belief i had and my grandparents getting cancer all the horrible shitty things that happen what God would allow that?? all religion is a work of fiction in my eyes and nothing anybody can say would change my mind I'm so sorry to hear about your terrible losses. I completely sympathise with your reasons here" Thankyou there is far too many bad things happen on this earth, famine and disease war and hatred. | |||
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"This isn't an argument for a god... this is an honest question" This goes to the heart of the scientific process - having a theory and testing it to destruction and when it holds up to that testing we can trust (for now) its validity. In yr original post there was no question - only an urge for atheists to state their views. You have not refuted them - just refused to put 'God' up for scrutiny. Test your ideas. Dare ya
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"At best it's an uncaring, feckless waste of time that offers me nothing. At worst it's a cunt." lol I'll take that as being a reference to the problem of evil | |||
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"At best it's an uncaring, feckless waste of time that offers me nothing. At worst it's a cunt. lol I'll take that as being a reference to the problem of evil ". If Jesus came back I'd shoot the cunt myself and start a cult | |||
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"This isn't an argument for a god... this is an honest question This goes to the heart of the scientific process - having a theory and testing it to destruction and when it holds up to that testing we can trust (for now) its validity. In yr original post there was no question - only an urge for atheists to state their views. You have not refuted them - just refused to put 'God' up for scrutiny. Test your ideas. Dare ya "Lol dude I'm on the other side of the mirror on this one. I haven't even lifted my finger to refute them here.. not because I'm frightened in the slightest. The fact that I'm happy to sit here listening to all the arguments against a god should alert you to that lol. Re-read the OP and you'll see the question... what is your biggest reason for not believing in a god? Some people came back with the answer "because there's no evidence". This, of course, provokes the next question "evidence of what?" to which the answer is "of god", to which the next obvious question is "what do you think that evidence would look like?" Its crazy how many people actually think I'm making an argument for god in simply trying to get people to tell me what they mean by what they're saying. Shit... if I knew it'd be this easy I'd have used this technique in all my previous arguments for a god lol | |||
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"At best it's an uncaring, feckless waste of time that offers me nothing. At worst it's a cunt. lol I'll take that as being a reference to the problem of evil .
If Jesus came back I'd shoot the cunt myself and start a cult"lol not a big fan of Jesus then does the fact that he asked his disciples to steal a donkey from a poor farmer, he insisted they leave their families without saying goodbye, and he pretty much single handedly invented satan and hell make things any better? | |||
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"The *fact* is, God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that "God answers prayers" is an illusion created by human imagination. How do we know that "answered prayers" are illusions? We simply perform scientific experiments. Ask a group of believers to pray for something and then we watch what happens. What we find, whenever we test the efficacy of prayer scientifically, is that prayer has zero effect: * It does not matter who prays. * It does not matter if we pray to God, Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Ra or any other human god. * It does not matter what we pray about. If we perform scientific, double-blind tests on prayer, and if the prayers involve something concrete and measurable (for example, healing people with cancer), we know that there is zero effect from prayer. Every single "answered prayer" is nothing more than a coincidence. Both scientific experiments and your everyday observations of the world show this to be the case every single time." Brilliant! Finally joe you've given me something. The fact that nothing happens when you pray. That's one of your reasons. So, by reverse, if you prayed for something to happen and then it happened... that might change your mind... but I suspect only if it was particularly unlikely or if everyone else also had similar experiences... is that correct? | |||
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"Was chatting to a vicar last night about a friend's father who was taken in to hospital last week. The vicar responded with a glib "These things are sent to try us." And I thought, what a cop out. "God's plan" is the way that Christians traditionally explain things like amputations, cancer, hurricanes and car accidents. For example, if a Christian dies a painful and tragic death because of cancer, she dies as part of God's plan. Her death has a purpose. God called her home for a reason. Even if something bad happens to a Christian, it is actually good because it is part of God's plan. If you think about it as an intelligent person, you will realize that the statement "It is part of God's plan" is one of those meaningless palliatives. When you sit down and think it through using your common sense, the statement makes no sense. That lack of sense shows us how imaginary God is." I guess its similar to the phrase "time is a great healer", in that it invokes something which is cosmic and happens anyway as being something that is somehow involved with our lives. Interesting | |||
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"The *fact* is, God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that "God answers prayers" is an illusion created by human imagination. How do we know that "answered prayers" are illusions? We simply perform scientific experiments. Ask a group of believers to pray for something and then we watch what happens. What we find, whenever we test the efficacy of prayer scientifically, is that prayer has zero effect: * It does not matter who prays. * It does not matter if we pray to God, Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Ra or any other human god. * It does not matter what we pray about. If we perform scientific, double-blind tests on prayer, and if the prayers involve something concrete and measurable (for example, healing people with cancer), we know that there is zero effect from prayer. Every single "answered prayer" is nothing more than a coincidence. Both scientific experiments and your everyday observations of the world show this to be the case every single time. Brilliant! Finally joe you've given me something. The fact that nothing happens when you pray. That's one of your reasons. So, by reverse, if you prayed for something to happen and then it happened... that might change your mind... but I suspect only if it was particularly unlikely or if everyone else also had similar experiences... is that correct?" No, I would ascribe that to "Magic thinking" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking | |||
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"Was chatting to a vicar last night about a friend's father who was taken in to hospital last week. The vicar responded with a glib "These things are sent to try us." And I thought, what a cop out. "God's plan" is the way that Christians traditionally explain things like amputations, cancer, hurricanes and car accidents. For example, if a Christian dies a painful and tragic death because of cancer, she dies as part of God's plan. Her death has a purpose. God called her home for a reason. Even if something bad happens to a Christian, it is actually good because it is part of God's plan. If you think about it as an intelligent person, you will realize that the statement "It is part of God's plan" is one of those meaningless palliatives. When you sit down and think it through using your common sense, the statement makes no sense. That lack of sense shows us how imaginary God is. I guess its similar to the phrase "time is a great healer", in that it invokes something which is cosmic and happens anyway as being something that is somehow involved with our lives. Interesting ""Time is the greatest healer" is the crassest of clichés | |||
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"There is no scientific evidence indicating that God exists. We all know that. For example: * God has never left any physical evidence of his existence on earth. * None of Jesus' "miracles" left any physical evidence either. * God has never spoken to modern man, for example by taking over all the television stations and broadcasting a rational message to everyone. * The resurrected Jesus has never appeared to anyone. * The Bible we have is provably incorrect and is obviously the work of primitive men rather than God. * When we analyze prayer with statistics, we find no evidence that God is "answering prayers." * Huge, amazing atrocities like the Holocaust and AIDS occur without any response from God. And so on…" I understand all of your points apart from the first one. This still seems nebullous to me. | |||
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"The *fact* is, God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that "God answers prayers" is an illusion created by human imagination. How do we know that "answered prayers" are illusions? We simply perform scientific experiments. Ask a group of believers to pray for something and then we watch what happens. What we find, whenever we test the efficacy of prayer scientifically, is that prayer has zero effect: * It does not matter who prays. * It does not matter if we pray to God, Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Ra or any other human god. * It does not matter what we pray about. If we perform scientific, double-blind tests on prayer, and if the prayers involve something concrete and measurable (for example, healing people with cancer), we know that there is zero effect from prayer. Every single "answered prayer" is nothing more than a coincidence. Both scientific experiments and your everyday observations of the world show this to be the case every single time. Brilliant! Finally joe you've given me something. The fact that nothing happens when you pray. That's one of your reasons. So, by reverse, if you prayed for something to happen and then it happened... that might change your mind... but I suspect only if it was particularly unlikely or if everyone else also had similar experiences... is that correct? No, I would ascribe that to "Magic thinking" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking" So that wouldn't be proof of god then? That's just one more reason why you don't believe. Ok I get it. | |||
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"When you look at different religions, they usually contain "magic." For example: * The Mormons maintain the magical golden plates, the magical angel, the magical seer stones, the magical ascension of the plates into heaven, etc. * The Muslim faith contains the magical angel, the magical flying horse, the magical voices, the magical prophet, etc. * The Christians have the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. The presence of "magic" is a clear marker for "imaginary." For example, how do we know that Santa is imaginary? Because (among other things) he has eight magical flying reindeer. How do we know that Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale? Because (among other things) the story contains magical seeds. In the same way, how do we know that God is make believe? Because God is surrounded by magic." So you don't believe that magic exists. God is surrounded by magic. Thus god doesn't exist. Is that right? Therefore... if it could be proved to you that magic does exist... then you might change your mind. Does that work for you? | |||
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"(ahh, ffs! I'm trying to chase tail - not get sucked in to some circular argument)" Dude I'm genuinely not even arguing with you.. I really am only trying to find out what your reason is... and if it was shown wrong whether that would cause you to rethink. It's all in the OP I think. Don't sweat it dude... you're not on trial. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm just interested in hearing your voice | |||
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"At best it's an uncaring, feckless waste of time that offers me nothing. At worst it's a cunt. lol I'll take that as being a reference to the problem of evil .
If Jesus came back I'd shoot the cunt myself and start a cult
lol not a big fan of Jesus then does the fact that he asked his disciples to steal a donkey from a poor farmer, he insisted they leave their families without saying goodbye, and he pretty much single handedly invented satan and hell make things any better? ". I wouldn't say I'd just pick on Jesus although he did seem like a pretty uncaring cunt,I mean he had the ability to feed everyone with a few fishes and loafs but in reality he let people starve... And what's it to him anyhow, not exactly a big deal! No even if he did exist he's a cunt of the highest order and humans should band together under the let's fuck Christ right up the arse religion because he's an uncaring feckless cunt! It wants unquestioning unreasoning servants but then gives us the ability to reason and question, it's a fucking tormenting cunt! Even worse I need to do shit in this life to get fuck all back from it... It's a using cunt! If there was a godly Jeremy kyle show for cuntish Gods... It would be on it, right next to Apollo arguing about who was loved more | |||
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"When you look at different religions, they usually contain "magic." For example: * The Mormons maintain the magical golden plates, the magical angel, the magical seer stones, the magical ascension of the plates into heaven, etc. * The Muslim faith contains the magical angel, the magical flying horse, the magical voices, the magical prophet, etc. * The Christians have the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. The presence of "magic" is a clear marker for "imaginary." For example, how do we know that Santa is imaginary? Because (among other things) he has eight magical flying reindeer. How do we know that Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale? Because (among other things) the story contains magical seeds. In the same way, how do we know that God is make believe? Because God is surrounded by magic. So you don't believe that magic exists. God is surrounded by magic. Thus god doesn't exist. Is that right? Therefore... if it could be proved to you that magic does exist... then you might change your mind. Does that work for you?" I don not believe in magic - only illusion. | |||
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"When you look at different religions, they usually contain "magic." For example: * The Mormons maintain the magical golden plates, the magical angel, the magical seer stones, the magical ascension of the plates into heaven, etc. * The Muslim faith contains the magical angel, the magical flying horse, the magical voices, the magical prophet, etc. * The Christians have the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. The presence of "magic" is a clear marker for "imaginary." For example, how do we know that Santa is imaginary? Because (among other things) he has eight magical flying reindeer. How do we know that Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale? Because (among other things) the story contains magical seeds. In the same way, how do we know that God is make believe? Because God is surrounded by magic. So you don't believe that magic exists. God is surrounded by magic. Thus god doesn't exist. Is that right? Therefore... if it could be proved to you that magic does exist... then you might change your mind. Does that work for you? I don not believe in magic - only illusion." What he said basically. | |||
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"You ask why some people think its bollocks. I'll explain my thinking. I was educated at school. I took an interest in the sciences specifically. I've read a lot of stuff about it. It makes sense. I accept I'm taking what others have written as fact so you could argue I have faith in what they say. Evolution over time just makes sense to my brain. Also have a keen interest in space. Again I've not been so I'm also putting faith in what I have read. It just makes more sense than a super being going pow and creating the universe and everything in it. What proof have we that Mary wasn't secretly having a good time with Joseph. If they even existed. What proof is there that their child had the power to respawn like in a computer game. Apologies for picking on Christianity but it was the only story telling I had at school. The main well known stories in the Bible match stories from earlier religions pretty much like for like and yet are claimed to be the truth. I just dont buy it. As Stephen fry said in an interview on Irish television which I coincidentally saw today, if there's a God explain bone cancer in infants. What great super being in designing the universe would come up with that one." Thanks Moshermick. Aside from the problem of evil reference at the end, I take the rest of your reason to basically come down to the fact that you have yet to hear a persuasive argument for a god. So.. it's a mixture of two problems... a problem of presentation of the idea... and a problem either with the logic of the idea itself, if you have understood it properly, or with your having not understood it properly because the Faiths have made such a botched job of presenting the idea to you. Does that sound like a reasonably accurate summary? | |||
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"You say "It is impossible for you to prove that God (Allah, Ra, Vishnu, whatever) does not exist. There is no way to prove that something does not exist." This is a silly argument for the following reason. Imagine that we have a conversation one day and I say to you, "Today I believe in the gerflagenflopple. You cannot prove that the gerflagenflopple does not exist, therefore it exists." You can see that this is ridiculous. Just because I have invented something out of thin air does not mean that its non-existence is suddenly unprovable. There has to be some evidence, or some reason, that the gerflagenflopple exists in order to assert its existence. Since there is not, it is quite easy to say that the gerflagenflopple is imaginary until such evidence is provided. We also know that the gerflagenflopple was made up on this thread. The word did not exist until created here. Your argument is circular and requires no proof. " lol diamond... you're coming out with all the usual ones here. I haven't argued that it's impossible to disprove it... that's a load of horse shit and we both know it is... I've asked you what you would class as proof... that's a totally different, rational and legitimate question. | |||
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"You say "It is impossible for you to prove that God (Allah, Ra, Vishnu, whatever) does not exist. There is no way to prove that something does not exist." This is a silly argument for the following reason. Imagine that we have a conversation one day and I say to you, "Today I believe in the gerflagenflopple. You cannot prove that the gerflagenflopple does not exist, therefore it exists." You can see that this is ridiculous. Just because I have invented something out of thin air does not mean that its non-existence is suddenly unprovable. There has to be some evidence, or some reason, that the gerflagenflopple exists in order to assert its existence. Since there is not, it is quite easy to say that the gerflagenflopple is imaginary until such evidence is provided. We also know that the gerflagenflopple was made up on this thread. The word did not exist until created here. Your argument is circular and requires no proof. lol diamond... you're coming out with all the usual ones here. I haven't argued that it's impossible to disprove it... that's a load of horse shit and we both know it is... I've asked you what you would class as proof... that's a totally different, rational and legitimate question." But *you* can't disprove the gerflagenflopple. | |||
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"When you look at different religions, they usually contain "magic." For example: * The Mormons maintain the magical golden plates, the magical angel, the magical seer stones, the magical ascension of the plates into heaven, etc. * The Muslim faith contains the magical angel, the magical flying horse, the magical voices, the magical prophet, etc. * The Christians have the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. The presence of "magic" is a clear marker for "imaginary." For example, how do we know that Santa is imaginary? Because (among other things) he has eight magical flying reindeer. How do we know that Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale? Because (among other things) the story contains magical seeds. In the same way, how do we know that God is make believe? Because God is surrounded by magic. So you don't believe that magic exists. God is surrounded by magic. Thus god doesn't exist. Is that right? Therefore... if it could be proved to you that magic does exist... then you might change your mind. Does that work for you? I don not believe in magic - only illusion." So if I was able to wave my hands and make a long deceased relative of yours suddenly reappear in the room before your very eyes and you were able to go off and enjoy another 10 years of life with them... that would be proof of magic right? I mean it's hardly an illusion is it. So if that happened... would that make you think again about a god existing? | |||
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"You ask why some people think its bollocks. I'll explain my thinking. I was educated at school. I took an interest in the sciences specifically. I've read a lot of stuff about it. It makes sense. I accept I'm taking what others have written as fact so you could argue I have faith in what they say. Evolution over time just makes sense to my brain. Also have a keen interest in space. Again I've not been so I'm also putting faith in what I have read. It just makes more sense than a super being going pow and creating the universe and everything in it. What proof have we that Mary wasn't secretly having a good time with Joseph. If they even existed. What proof is there that their child had the power to respawn like in a computer game. Apologies for picking on Christianity but it was the only story telling I had at school. The main well known stories in the Bible match stories from earlier religions pretty much like for like and yet are claimed to be the truth. I just dont buy it. As Stephen fry said in an interview on Irish television which I coincidentally saw today, if there's a God explain bone cancer in infants. What great super being in designing the universe would come up with that one. Thanks Moshermick. Aside from the problem of evil reference at the end, I take the rest of your reason to basically come down to the fact that you have yet to hear a persuasive argument for a god. So.. it's a mixture of two problems... a problem of presentation of the idea... and a problem either with the logic of the idea itself, if you have understood it properly, or with your having not understood it properly because the Faiths have made such a botched job of presenting the idea to you. Does that sound like a reasonably accurate summary?" Yes I would say that is a good summary. I would argue that the faiths haven't made a botched job of presenting the idea to me though. They have failed to convince me despite their best efforts is a better way of putting it I think. | |||
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"When you look at different religions, they usually contain "magic." For example: * The Mormons maintain the magical golden plates, the magical angel, the magical seer stones, the magical ascension of the plates into heaven, etc. * The Muslim faith contains the magical angel, the magical flying horse, the magical voices, the magical prophet, etc. * The Christians have the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. The presence of "magic" is a clear marker for "imaginary." For example, how do we know that Santa is imaginary? Because (among other things) he has eight magical flying reindeer. How do we know that Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale? Because (among other things) the story contains magical seeds. In the same way, how do we know that God is make believe? Because God is surrounded by magic. So you don't believe that magic exists. God is surrounded by magic. Thus god doesn't exist. Is that right? Therefore... if it could be proved to you that magic does exist... then you might change your mind. Does that work for you? I don not believe in magic - only illusion. So if I was able to wave my hands and make a long deceased relative of yours suddenly reappear in the room before your very eyes and you were able to go off and enjoy another 10 years of life with them... that would be proof of magic right? I mean it's hardly an illusion is it. So if that happened... would that make you think again about a god existing?" Go on then, do it | |||
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"When you look at different religions, they usually contain "magic." For example: * The Mormons maintain the magical golden plates, the magical angel, the magical seer stones, the magical ascension of the plates into heaven, etc. * The Muslim faith contains the magical angel, the magical flying horse, the magical voices, the magical prophet, etc. * The Christians have the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. The presence of "magic" is a clear marker for "imaginary." For example, how do we know that Santa is imaginary? Because (among other things) he has eight magical flying reindeer. How do we know that Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale? Because (among other things) the story contains magical seeds. In the same way, how do we know that God is make believe? Because God is surrounded by magic. So you don't believe that magic exists. God is surrounded by magic. Thus god doesn't exist. Is that right? Therefore... if it could be proved to you that magic does exist... then you might change your mind. Does that work for you? I don not believe in magic - only illusion. So if I was able to wave my hands and make a long deceased relative of yours suddenly reappear in the room before your very eyes and you were able to go off and enjoy another 10 years of life with them... that would be proof of magic right? I mean it's hardly an illusion is it. So if that happened... would that make you think again about a god existing?" I've played enough games to know that would make you a necromancer not a god. | |||
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"But *you* can't disprove the gerflagenflopple." And I'm not asking you to disprove god. I've got all of your arguments, from the problem of evil through to the nonse of the bible etc. It's just that last one of god leaving no evidence. I am only asking you to imagine a purely hypothetical scenario of what that evidence might be. I promise I'll accept any answer as long as you genuinely feel that it would cause you to rethink the issue. I don't care if its crazy shit. I just want to know what it is you're expecting to find which is missing. | |||
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"Yes I would say that is a good summary. I would argue that the faiths haven't made a botched job of presenting the idea to me though. They have failed to convince me despite their best efforts is a better way of putting it I think." lol you really think their efforts were good? Personally I'd say they've made a total fuck up of the whole thing lol | |||
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"When you look at different religions, they usually contain "magic." For example: * The Mormons maintain the magical golden plates, the magical angel, the magical seer stones, the magical ascension of the plates into heaven, etc. * The Muslim faith contains the magical angel, the magical flying horse, the magical voices, the magical prophet, etc. * The Christians have the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. The presence of "magic" is a clear marker for "imaginary." For example, how do we know that Santa is imaginary? Because (among other things) he has eight magical flying reindeer. How do we know that Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale? Because (among other things) the story contains magical seeds. In the same way, how do we know that God is make believe? Because God is surrounded by magic. So you don't believe that magic exists. God is surrounded by magic. Thus god doesn't exist. Is that right? Therefore... if it could be proved to you that magic does exist... then you might change your mind. Does that work for you? I don not believe in magic - only illusion. So if I was able to wave my hands and make a long deceased relative of yours suddenly reappear in the room before your very eyes and you were able to go off and enjoy another 10 years of life with them... that would be proof of magic right? I mean it's hardly an illusion is it. So if that happened... would that make you think again about a god existing? Go on then, do it" It's a hypothetical... for moshermick I'm but a mere necromancer. For you... if I could do it... would you think again about a god existing? | |||
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"But *you* can't disprove the gerflagenflopple. And I'm not asking you to disprove god. I've got all of your arguments, from the problem of evil through to the nonse of the bible etc. It's just that last one of god leaving no evidence. I am only asking you to imagine a purely hypothetical scenario of what that evidence might be. I promise I'll accept any answer as long as you genuinely feel that it would cause you to rethink the issue. I don't care if its crazy shit. I just want to know what it is you're expecting to find which is missing." I think therein lies the problem. What is proof that God exists? No on knows. Would we know it if we saw it? Probably not. | |||
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"When you look at different religions, they usually contain "magic." For example: * The Mormons maintain the magical golden plates, the magical angel, the magical seer stones, the magical ascension of the plates into heaven, etc. * The Muslim faith contains the magical angel, the magical flying horse, the magical voices, the magical prophet, etc. * The Christians have the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. The presence of "magic" is a clear marker for "imaginary." For example, how do we know that Santa is imaginary? Because (among other things) he has eight magical flying reindeer. How do we know that Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale? Because (among other things) the story contains magical seeds. In the same way, how do we know that God is make believe? Because God is surrounded by magic. So you don't believe that magic exists. God is surrounded by magic. Thus god doesn't exist. Is that right? Therefore... if it could be proved to you that magic does exist... then you might change your mind. Does that work for you? I don not believe in magic - only illusion. So if I was able to wave my hands and make a long deceased relative of yours suddenly reappear in the room before your very eyes and you were able to go off and enjoy another 10 years of life with them... that would be proof of magic right? I mean it's hardly an illusion is it. So if that happened... would that make you think again about a god existing? Go on then, do it It's a hypothetical... for moshermick I'm but a mere necromancer. For you... if I could do it... would you think again about a god existing?" "If, if, if..." But you can't | |||
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"Yes I would say that is a good summary. I would argue that the faiths haven't made a botched job of presenting the idea to me though. They have failed to convince me despite their best efforts is a better way of putting it I think. lol you really think their efforts were good? Personally I'd say they've made a total fuck up of the whole thing lol "I said their best efforts not that their efforts were good or bad. One could argue that my brain was superior to their attempt to convince me. You could also argue they were crap I suppose. | |||
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"Why do we say 'oh my god' when we have a close shave with death? " I don't, I say Fuck that!!!! | |||
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""If, if, if..." But you can't" I'll take that as being a yes then Thanks... just curious | |||
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"What the theory of evolution says is that every living thing on this planet has evolved through a completely natural process. Every species that we see today is derived from simple, single-cell organisms over the course of hundreds of millions of years. In other words, there was no supernatural creation process for humans as described in the Bible's book of Genesis. As you think about this, what you will realise is that evolved beings have no souls. Human beings are no different from any other animal, insect, plant or bacteria in the way that we have evolved. In the same way that every other living thing on planet Earth is soul-less, humans are soul-less. The whole notion of a soul is a figment of human imagination. The biochemistry of life powers evolution. That biochemistry is amazing and complex, but it is nothing more than a set of soul-less chemical reactions. When the chemical reactions cease, you die. There is no "soul" mixed in with the chemicals. Where did the first cell come from? Many believers argue that God magically created the first living cell. This, of course, is silly. The scientific principle that describes the origin of life is called abiogenesis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis In the same way that there is no supernatural being involved in evolution, there is no supernatural being involved in abiogenesis. Both the creation of life and the evolution of species are completely natural processes. There is no "supreme being" in heaven who reached down to create life on Earth or human beings. Nor is that being answering prayers. There is no soul. There is no everlasting life. Science tells us all of these things with complete clarity. God is imaginary. Simply think through the logic." . I'm with him ? The miracle of birth is as much of a miracle as having a shit! I'm off to put that on my Facebook Just had the miracle of a shit praise the lord! Shit and father doing well | |||
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"Why do we say 'oh my god' when we have a close shave with death? I don't, I say Fuck that!!!!" Missed the original quote earlier. Oh God, oh my God, for gods sake etc are remnants of the teachings we had as children. Hard to shake them. | |||
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"What the theory of evolution says is that every living thing on this planet has evolved through a completely natural process. Every species that we see today is derived from simple, single-cell organisms over the course of hundreds of millions of years. In other words, there was no supernatural creation process for humans as described in the Bible's book of Genesis. As you think about this, what you will realise is that evolved beings have no souls. Human beings are no different from any other animal, insect, plant or bacteria in the way that we have evolved. In the same way that every other living thing on planet Earth is soul-less, humans are soul-less. The whole notion of a soul is a figment of human imagination. The biochemistry of life powers evolution. That biochemistry is amazing and complex, but it is nothing more than a set of soul-less chemical reactions. When the chemical reactions cease, you die. There is no "soul" mixed in with the chemicals. Where did the first cell come from? Many believers argue that God magically created the first living cell. This, of course, is silly. The scientific principle that describes the origin of life is called abiogenesis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis In the same way that there is no supernatural being involved in evolution, there is no supernatural being involved in abiogenesis. Both the creation of life and the evolution of species are completely natural processes. There is no "supreme being" in heaven who reached down to create life on Earth or human beings. Nor is that being answering prayers. There is no soul. There is no everlasting life. Science tells us all of these things with complete clarity. God is imaginary. Simply think through the logic." I see your logic. It isn't my logic. Just out of curiosity. You say the soul doesn't exist. By that are you saying that consciousness doesn't exist. Soul is another word for consciousness isn't it? | |||
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"The miracle of birth is as much of a miracle as having a shit!" Lol you don't half come out with em sexy | |||
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""If, if, if..." But you can't I'll take that as being a yes then Thanks... just curious"Cop out - you can take that as a NO. | |||
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"The miracle of birth is as much of a miracle as having a shit! Lol you don't half come out with em sexy ". I can't help it.. The lord commanded me | |||
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""If, if, if..." But you can't I'll take that as being a yes then Thanks... just curious
Cop out - you can take that as a NO."And there is the difference... I have willingly stated views, put them up to scrutiny, am interested in reason, science and logical explanation for events. You can lol all you like, with the passive aggressive "I'm not arguing"... But the bottom line is you're not prepared to do the same. You're not prepared to open your mind to doubt, to admit that you don't have all the answers. Instead you have the care-free luxury of belief. Cop out. Try science. | |||
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"What the theory of evolution says is that every living thing on this planet has evolved through a completely natural process. Every species that we see today is derived from simple, single-cell organisms over the course of hundreds of millions of years. In other words, there was no supernatural creation process for humans as described in the Bible's book of Genesis. As you think about this, what you will realise is that evolved beings have no souls. Human beings are no different from any other animal, insect, plant or bacteria in the way that we have evolved. In the same way that every other living thing on planet Earth is soul-less, humans are soul-less. The whole notion of a soul is a figment of human imagination. The biochemistry of life powers evolution. That biochemistry is amazing and complex, but it is nothing more than a set of soul-less chemical reactions. When the chemical reactions cease, you die. There is no "soul" mixed in with the chemicals. Where did the first cell come from? Many believers argue that God magically created the first living cell. This, of course, is silly. The scientific principle that describes the origin of life is called abiogenesis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis In the same way that there is no supernatural being involved in evolution, there is no supernatural being involved in abiogenesis. Both the creation of life and the evolution of species are completely natural processes. There is no "supreme being" in heaven who reached down to create life on Earth or human beings. Nor is that being answering prayers. There is no soul. There is no everlasting life. Science tells us all of these things with complete clarity. God is imaginary. Simply think through the logic. I see your logic. It isn't my logic. Just out of curiosity. You say the soul doesn't exist. By that are you saying that consciousness doesn't exist. Soul is another word for consciousness isn't it?" Semantics and tautology there, I'm afraid. Have another roll of the dice. | |||
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"It finally went quiet.
"Oh no it didn't. It's not over until the fat boy sings, I haven't sung yet. God's real (Not really, can't stand the bloke). | |||
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"It finally went quiet.
Oh no it didn't. It's not over until the fat boy sings, I haven't sung yet. God's real (Not really, can't stand the bloke)."You'd better start praying by all the gods you profess not to believe in that I don't get to meet your arse. 'Cos you know what will happen. And that's not imaginary. | |||
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"It finally went quiet.
Oh no it didn't. It's not over until the fat boy sings, I haven't sung yet. God's real (Not really, can't stand the bloke).
You'd better start praying by all the gods you profess not to believe in that I don't get to meet your arse.
'Cos you know what will happen.
And that's not imaginary. " | |||
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"It finally went quiet.
Oh no it didn't. It's not over until the fat boy sings, I haven't sung yet. God's real (Not really, can't stand the bloke).
You'd better start praying by all the gods you profess not to believe in that I don't get to meet your arse.
'Cos you know what will happen.
And that's not imaginary.
"hehe | |||
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"I think one of the most interesting things that has come out of this is that almost everyone expects God to be different from nature and that, therefore, we should find something unusual in nature which we could count as evidence due to its not being natural. I think this can be the only explanation for why so few people have been able to verbalise what evidence would look like... partly because anything that did exist would have to look unnatural and godly... and nobody really knows what the heck that would be. Its an interesting assumption. Most of the Faiths say God is all around us... and yet most of the people on this thread don't see God all around them... they see nature instead... and God is missing. Thus, it strikes me that the heart of this issue is based upon a single value judgement... is what you're currently looking at natural or divine? I think I have a good grasp of why people think things are natural instead of divine so I won't detail them here, and I don't really need directing to the "science 101" book. It's been fun... and thanks for the insight "Still think it's lazy thinking. | |||
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"I think one of the most interesting things that has come out of this is that almost everyone expects God to be different from nature and that, therefore, we should find something unusual in nature which we could count as evidence due to its not being natural. I think this can be the only explanation for why so few people have been able to verbalise what evidence would look like... partly because anything that did exist would have to look unnatural and godly... and nobody really knows what the heck that would be. Its an interesting assumption. Most of the Faiths say God is all around us... and yet most of the people on this thread don't see God all around them... they see nature instead... and God is missing. Thus, it strikes me that the heart of this issue is based upon a single value judgement... is what you're currently looking at natural or divine? I think I have a good grasp of why people think things are natural instead of divine so I won't detail them here, and I don't really need directing to the "science 101" book. It's been fun... and thanks for the insight
Still think it's lazy thinking."You have proven nothing and refuted less... dude... lol... | |||
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"I think one of the most interesting things that has come out of this is that almost everyone expects God to be different from nature and that, therefore, we should find something unusual in nature which we could count as evidence due to its not being natural. I think this can be the only explanation for why so few people have been able to verbalise what evidence would look like... partly because anything that did exist would have to look unnatural and godly... and nobody really knows what the heck that would be. Its an interesting assumption. Most of the Faiths say God is all around us... and yet most of the people on this thread don't see God all around them... they see nature instead... and God is missing. Thus, it strikes me that the heart of this issue is based upon a single value judgement... is what you're currently looking at natural or divine? I think I have a good grasp of why people think things are natural instead of divine so I won't detail them here, and I don't really need directing to the "science 101" book. It's been fun... and thanks for the insight
Still think it's lazy thinking.
You have proven nothing and refuted less... dude... lol..."Oh, and one of these: | |||
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""If, if, if..." But you can't I'll take that as being a yes then Thanks... just curious
Cop out - you can take that as a NO.
And there is the difference...
I have willingly stated views, put them up to scrutiny, am interested in reason, science and logical explanation for events.
You can lol all you like, with the passive aggressive "I'm not arguing"...
But the bottom line is you're not prepared to do the same. You're not prepared to open your mind to doubt, to admit that you don't have all the answers.
Instead you have the care-free luxury of belief. Cop out.
Try science. "Diamond... you are a na na I only asked you a hypothetical question of what you would accept as evidence... I even promised I wouldn't even argue against it. I merely wanted to know. You seemed to suggest that if I could perform some incredible magical feat then you would reconsider the possibility that a god existed... and that was the answer to my question.
Now you seem to think we've been having an argument. We haven't... read the OP... this thread was allll about your views... not mine. It's not a cop out... it was the intention of the thread... under the proviso that I wouldn't argue against your views... and I haven't. Dude you really need to get some sleep and re-read the thread in the morning with a fresh head | |||
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""If, if, if..." But you can't I'll take that as being a yes then Thanks... just curious
Cop out - you can take that as a NO.
And there is the difference...
I have willingly stated views, put them up to scrutiny, am interested in reason, science and logical explanation for events.
You can lol all you like, with the passive aggressive "I'm not arguing"...
But the bottom line is you're not prepared to do the same. You're not prepared to open your mind to doubt, to admit that you don't have all the answers.
Instead you have the care-free luxury of belief. Cop out.
Try science.
Diamond... you are a na na I only asked you a hypothetical question of what you would accept as evidence... I even promised I wouldn't even argue against it. I merely wanted to know. You seemed to suggest that if I could perform some incredible magical feat then you would reconsider the possibility that a god existed... and that was the answer to my question.
Now you seem to think we've been having an argument. We haven't... read the OP... this thread was allll about your views... not mine. It's not a cop out... it was the intention of the thread... under the proviso that I wouldn't argue against your views... and I haven't. Dude you really need to get some sleep and re-read the thread in the morning with a fresh head "Yes, and you're being passive-aggressive in pursuit of an argument. Dude, lol | |||
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""If, if, if..." But you can't I'll take that as being a yes then Thanks... just curious
Cop out - you can take that as a NO.
And there is the difference...
I have willingly stated views, put them up to scrutiny, am interested in reason, science and logical explanation for events.
You can lol all you like, with the passive aggressive "I'm not arguing"...
But the bottom line is you're not prepared to do the same. You're not prepared to open your mind to doubt, to admit that you don't have all the answers.
Instead you have the care-free luxury of belief. Cop out.
Try science.
Diamond... you are a na na I only asked you a hypothetical question of what you would accept as evidence... I even promised I wouldn't even argue against it. I merely wanted to know. You seemed to suggest that if I could perform some incredible magical feat then you would reconsider the possibility that a god existed... and that was the answer to my question.
Now you seem to think we've been having an argument. We haven't... read the OP... this thread was allll about your views... not mine. It's not a cop out... it was the intention of the thread... under the proviso that I wouldn't argue against your views... and I haven't. Dude you really need to get some sleep and re-read the thread in the morning with a fresh head
Yes, and you're being passive-aggressive in pursuit of an argument.
Dude, lol "And I have provided a number of arguments that you have not refuted - merely tempted me to believe in your magical powers. It's frankly bizarre. | |||
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"Yes, and you're being passive-aggressive in pursuit of an argument. Dude, lol
And I have provided a number of arguments that you have not refuted - merely tempted me to believe in your magical powers.
It's frankly bizarre."Its bizarre because you haven't grasped the surmise of the whole thread. It was never an argument.. it was merely a moment for you to clarify your views. And when those views were murky I merely asked you to clarify them some more. Here's a quote from the OP for you... "This is a thread for atheists to clarify their views. Theists... please resist the urge to argue back, I promise I won't" What you have read as me being passive aggressive in pursuit of an argument was me merely trying to clarify that the reason you were giving was what I thought it was and, in the case of it being a lack of evidence, getting someone to give me a sense of what that missing evidence might hypothetically be. Sorry if you read it wrong and thought I was being pissy with you. I wasn't... thanks for spilling the beans Nah night | |||
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"Sorry if you read it wrong and thought I was being pissy with you. I wasn't... thanks for spilling the beans Nah night
Try and answer the question guys
Is that a fair overview? I'm really not trying to belittle or counter anyone's views... I'm just curious to see what they are. Thanks
I'd say that the most sentient point that I have taken away from this thread is that most people who don't believe in God don't know what God is. This strikes me as merely an issue of education. Once people know what God is... then they will have better reasons for not believing in it
lol diamond... you're coming out with all the usual ones here.
I promise I'll accept any answer as long as you genuinely feel that it would cause you to rethink the issue. I don't care if its crazy shit. I just want to know what it is you're expecting to find which is missing
It's been fun... and thanks for the insight
I even promised I wouldn't even argue against it. I merely wanted to know.
"^ a selection of your comments, most of which were succeeded by a
I have given many answers, most of which you have failed to refute except by reaching for stale arguments that prove nothing.
Soz, dude.
Lol,
Psst! God doesn't exist!
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"Ok so evidence is proving a big hitter. Tell me then... what evidence would you classify as being proof that a god exists? What is it you're looking for which is missing? Anything tangible or measurable would be a good start. A tangible and measurable what? Are you expecting God to be a creature of some sort? Like Affectionate said. Or are you waiting for a really weird miracle? If evidence is missing you must have some comprehension of what that is. I mean... if you don't that's cool... but I just assumed you would
A tangible or measurable anything.
There won't be, though. Faith relies on a "leap" therof - i.e. to suspend your disbelief, which I won't do.
Surely if a god exists it must... exist... and that means science should theoretically be able to present some proof of it. But it seems like you really have no idea of what that proof would be. How do you know that proof hasn't already been found but no one recognised it? I mean... if you don't know what you're looking for it is a possibility right?"Science cannot prove how the universe began. Different theories are put forward but none have be proven conclusively and they change over time. Evolution does not provide the answer to who/what started the whole cycle off. Go back seven hundred or a thousand years and ask does electricity exist and the answer would be no. Even though the ancient Romans & Persians possibly used batteries. The arguments that God would not allow disease or rape etc. are simply red herrings, if you believe man has the power to decide his destiny. Those who believe in God believe he/she will be judged at the death of their physical body. For all we know we could be micro-organisms in some gigantic body. | |||
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"Atheist's don't exist. "Amen. | |||
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I've had time to clear me head...
Try this.
Your argument is circular in that you just repeat it and never listens to any answers, and cites this as conclusive proof that atheists don't know the answer.
Its use can be effective, but only when combined with a disregard for generally agreed conversational etiquette; because people answering it tend to get bogged down in trying to patiently explain that it is impossible to prove a negative, how burden of proof works and explaining the nature of evidence.
While they are explaining these issues, you simply lol and the question at them again.
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