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White working class underachieving
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. " Other groups have poor parenting too. What is the attitude that means being white and working class equals underachieving? I only have experience of the working class bit. My parents didn't push for me to do anything more than go to school. There was no help at home with homework and we had little money for books (very little for food on a Thursday). English is my first language but I grew up in 'Ackney in the really poor bits on estates with other working class people, white, black and everything else. What's the thing that is holding them back? | |||
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. "  | |||
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. Other groups have poor parenting too. What is the attitude that means being white and working class equals underachieving? I only have experience of the working class bit. My parents didn't push for me to do anything more than go to school. There was no help at home with homework and we had little money for books (very little for food on a Thursday). English is my first language but I grew up in 'Ackney in the really poor bits on estates with other working class people, white, black and everything else. What's the thing that is holding them back? " Sense of entitlement? Sense of hopelessness? I can see a case for either of those possibilities, (and I don't like where one of them would go). I don't know. I don't know many kids these days and have no idea about yoofs or their culture. I'm from a white, working class family. I went to the local comprehensive school. It wasn't an ideal learning environment to say the least. My school had almost no non-white students though. | |||
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" What's the thing that is holding them back? Sense of entitlement? Sense of hopelessness? I can see a case for either of those possibilities, (and I don't like where one of them would go). I don't know. I don't know many kids these days and have no idea about yoofs or their culture. I'm from a white, working class family. I went to the local comprehensive school. It wasn't an ideal learning environment to say the least. My school had almost no non-white students though." Despite the fact that London schools are crowded and have every language known represented London has been the success story of school achievement turn around. Except even here white working class children are lagging behind. I'm not sure about the achievement ratios in predominantly white area schools, which would be out of London. I'll have to see what I can find. | |||
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. Other groups have poor parenting too. What is the attitude that means being white and working class equals underachieving? I only have experience of the working class bit. My parents didn't push for me to do anything more than go to school. There was no help at home with homework and we had little money for books (very little for food on a Thursday). English is my first language but I grew up in 'Ackney in the really poor bits on estates with other working class people, white, black and everything else. What's the thing that is holding them back? Sense of entitlement? Sense of hopelessness? I can see a case for either of those possibilities, (and I don't like where one of them would go). I don't know. I don't know many kids these days and have no idea about yoofs or their culture. I'm from a white, working class family. I went to the local comprehensive school. It wasn't an ideal learning environment to say the least. My school had almost no non-white students though." Entitlement and hopelessness. 
No jobs so why bovver. | |||
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"It's exam results day again. The overall pass rates have remained the same, although there are improvements in English and Maths as schools have been discouraged from entering pupils early. The analysis of exam achievement by class and ethnicity yet but the trend has been for white working class children to lag behind other groups. The research appears to show they fail because of their grasp of English. Those with English as a second or additional language do better. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jun/25/schools-attainment-gap-white-working-class-ethnic-minority-pupils-dfe Why are our white working class children failing? Is it class or something else? " . I note that this analysis comes from the Guardian newspaper . If we are trying to do a true like for like comparison it should be with the working classes from both nationalities . Are the Guardian attempting to suggest that white working class children under achieve or are they using a skewed example.? It would be interesting to see how the Guardian would propose to rectify this issue. | |||
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"When you have English as a second language you have to try harder to break down the langauge....... You are more likely to better results (even in English) because it being a foreign to you ,you have to be so good at the grammer just to pick up the langauge.... I found when i did French and Spanish i learned more about English grammer. When it's your first language the language just work..... But learning a foreign language you always have to know why you say it this way or why you say it that way...x" Thanks, that's a really useful contribution. White middle and upper class children start with just English too. Although early years research shows that they have more exposure to people speaking to them, which is critical. | |||
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" Sense of entitlement? Sense of hopelessness? I can see a case for either of those possibilities, (and I don't like where one of them would go). I don't know. I don't know many kids these days and have no idea about yoofs or their culture. I'm from a white, working class family. I went to the local comprehensive school. It wasn't an ideal learning environment to say the least. My school had almost no non-white students though. Entitlement and hopelessness.
No jobs so why bovver."Or is that the jobs that are available to them are seen as only good for foreigners? | |||
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"When you have English as a second language you have to try harder to break down the langauge....... You are more likely to better results (even in English) because it being a foreign to you ,you have to be so good at the grammer just to pick up the langauge.... I found when i did French and Spanish i learned more about English grammer. When it's your first language the language just work..... But learning a foreign language you always have to know why you say it this way or why you say it that way...x Thanks, that's a really useful contribution. White middle and upper class children start with just English too. Although early years research shows that they have more exposure to people speaking to them, which is critical. " | |||
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"It's exam results day again. The overall pass rates have remained the same, although there are improvements in English and Maths as schools have been discouraged from entering pupils early. The analysis of exam achievement by class and ethnicity yet but the trend has been for white working class children to lag behind other groups. The research appears to show they fail because of their grasp of English. Those with English as a second or additional language do better. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jun/25/schools-attainment-gap-white-working-class-ethnic-minority-pupils-dfe Why are our white working class children failing? Is it class or something else? . I note that this analysis comes from the Guardian newspaper . If we are trying to do a true like for like comparison it should be with the working classes from both nationalities . Are the Guardian attempting to suggest that white working class children under achieve or are they using a skewed example.? It would be interesting to see how the Guardian would propose to rectify this issue. " The analysis comes from the Department for Education. The link to the news report is from the Guardian. Please don't confuse the analysis with the medium of reporting it as news. | |||
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"When you have English as a second language you have to try harder to break down the langauge....... You are more likely to better results (even in English) because it being a foreign to you ,you have to be so good at the grammer just to pick up the langauge.... I found when i did French and Spanish i learned more about English grammer. When it's your first language the language just work..... But learning a foreign language you always have to know why you say it this way or why you say it that way...x Thanks, that's a really useful contribution. White middle and upper class children start with just English too. Although early years research shows that they have more exposure to people speaking to them, which is critical. " It's definitely a factor..... I'm pretty good at English (for a Paddy) But i learned so much about English studying another langauge... There are obviously other factors.x | |||
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"Combination of a few thingsi assume........ I don't doubt that the sense of entitlement and poor work ethic have a huge part to play in this and they should not be overlooked as contributory factors. I'd also be inclined to believe that the increase in additional cultures/languages into schools means that white British children almost become 'less of a priority' as the focus shifts on ensuring that more is done to bring other ethnicities up to scratch and ensure they get the support required. Not based on evidence, just a hunch/belief." The volunteer reading I have done has been with both groups. When I was a school governor, both primary and secondary, we had some funds for English as an Additional Language support but it was applied in the same way as other remedial support. What I have noticed more and more is community based supplementary schools in black and minority ethnic communities where the home language and English, Maths and Science are taught at the weekends. | |||
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. Other groups have poor parenting too. What is the attitude that means being white and working class equals underachieving? I only have experience of the working class bit. My parents didn't push for me to do anything more than go to school. There was no help at home with homework and we had little money for books (very little for food on a Thursday). English is my first language but I grew up in 'Ackney in the really poor bits on estates with other working class people, white, black and everything else. What's the thing that is holding them back? Sense of entitlement? Sense of hopelessness? I can see a case for either of those possibilities, (and I don't like where one of them would go). I don't know. I don't know many kids these days and have no idea about yoofs or their culture. I'm from a white, working class family. I went to the local comprehensive school. It wasn't an ideal learning environment to say the least. My school had almost no non-white students though." Totally agree that a sense of entitlement is a big issue. This is made worse by the claims spread about immigrants. There has been an issue for a long time with kids who were born here feeling like they are entitled to something without having to make any effort. On top of that is the feeling that some jobs are beneath them. A work ethic has been lost somewhere. | |||
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"There are no end of possibilities, what with so many available distractions such as smartphones,tablets, video games etc, a lot of people spend a lot of time distracted, you just have to look around on a bus or train to see the majority of people are engrossed in something, and unlike in the olden days of newspapers, the amount of information a person can be distracted with is many times greater. I'm not saying this is or isn't the case, it would be hypocritical of me, however, I am currently on fab while watching a movie and drinking tea, which means I'm not paying full attention to everything that's going on" Shorter attention spans, that's what I was thinking of. Sorry for the essay | |||
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. Other groups have poor parenting too. What is the attitude that means being white and working class equals underachieving? I only have experience of the working class bit. My parents didn't push for me to do anything more than go to school. There was no help at home with homework and we had little money for books (very little for food on a Thursday). English is my first language but I grew up in 'Ackney in the really poor bits on estates with other working class people, white, black and everything else. What's the thing that is holding them back? Sense of entitlement? Sense of hopelessness? I can see a case for either of those possibilities, (and I don't like where one of them would go). I don't know. I don't know many kids these days and have no idea about yoofs or their culture. I'm from a white, working class family. I went to the local comprehensive school. It wasn't an ideal learning environment to say the least. My school had almost no non-white students though. Totally agree that a sense of entitlement is a big issue. This is made worse by the claims spread about immigrants. There has been an issue for a long time with kids who were born here feeling like they are entitled to something without having to make any effort. On top of that is the feeling that some jobs are beneath them. A work ethic has been lost somewhere. " How do we put it back when they are still at school? | |||
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"There are no end of possibilities, what with so many available distractions such as smartphones,tablets, video games etc, a lot of people spend a lot of time distracted, you just have to look around on a bus or train to see the majority of people are engrossed in something, and unlike in the olden days of newspapers, the amount of information a person can be distracted with is many times greater. I'm not saying this is or isn't the case, it would be hypocritical of me, however, I am currently on fab while watching a movie and drinking tea, which means I'm not paying full attention to everything that's going on" I do this too. I always have other things on the go when I am on Fab. | |||
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"It's exam results day again. The overall pass rates have remained the same, although there are improvements in English and Maths as schools have been discouraged from entering pupils early. The analysis of exam achievement by class and ethnicity yet but the trend has been for white working class children to lag behind other groups. The research appears to show they fail because of their grasp of English. Those with English as a second or additional language do better. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jun/25/schools-attainment-gap-white-working-class-ethnic-minority-pupils-dfe Why are our white working class children failing? Is it class or something else? " If the ruckus caused by white, working class parents almost rioting and threatening to remove their children from school because the head wanted to introduce homework is indicative of modern parenting...well, what do you expect? | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you" Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you" What do you mean? Why are they treated like shit? How is this manifested in their lives and, specifically, their education? | |||
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" What's the thing that is holding them back? Sense of entitlement? Sense of hopelessness? I can see a case for either of those possibilities, (and I don't like where one of them would go). I don't know. I don't know many kids these days and have no idea about yoofs or their culture. I'm from a white, working class family. I went to the local comprehensive school. It wasn't an ideal learning environment to say the least. My school had almost no non-white students though. Despite the fact that London schools are crowded and have every language known represented London has been the success story of school achievement turn around. Except even here white working class children are lagging behind. I'm not sure about the achievement ratios in predominantly white area schools, which would be out of London. I'll have to see what I can find. " . If London schools have every language known represented , it may be putting white working class children at a disadvantage in the learning process as too many resources are being devoted to assisting those to whom English is not their mother language . | |||
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"It's exam results day again. The overall pass rates have remained the same, although there are improvements in English and Maths as schools have been discouraged from entering pupils early. The analysis of exam achievement by class and ethnicity yet but the trend has been for white working class children to lag behind other groups. The research appears to show they fail because of their grasp of English. Those with English as a second or additional language do better. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jun/25/schools-attainment-gap-white-working-class-ethnic-minority-pupils-dfe Why are our white working class children failing? Is it class or something else? If the ruckus caused by white, working class parents almost rioting and threatening to remove their children from school because the head wanted to introduce homework is indicative of modern parenting...well, what do you expect?" So we return to the parents setting the example. | |||
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" What's the thing that is holding them back? Sense of entitlement? Sense of hopelessness? I can see a case for either of those possibilities, (and I don't like where one of them would go). I don't know. I don't know many kids these days and have no idea about yoofs or their culture. I'm from a white, working class family. I went to the local comprehensive school. It wasn't an ideal learning environment to say the least. My school had almost no non-white students though. Despite the fact that London schools are crowded and have every language known represented London has been the success story of school achievement turn around. Except even here white working class children are lagging behind. I'm not sure about the achievement ratios in predominantly white area schools, which would be out of London. I'll have to see what I can find. . If London schools have every language known represented , it may be putting white working class children at a disadvantage in the learning process as too many resources are being devoted to assisting those to whom English is not their mother language ." They are all taught together still, in English. Those without English have to catch up. My point is that it's not just in London. The trend is across the country, even those areas without high multi-ethnic groupings, that white working class children are underachieving. The DfE report argues that they should be given additional support to learn English. Not other subjects but their own first language. | |||
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"It's exam results day again. The overall pass rates have remained the same, although there are improvements in English and Maths as schools have been discouraged from entering pupils early. The analysis of exam achievement by class and ethnicity yet but the trend has been for white working class children to lag behind other groups. The research appears to show they fail because of their grasp of English. Those with English as a second or additional language do better. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jun/25/schools-attainment-gap-white-working-class-ethnic-minority-pupils-dfe Why are our white working class children failing? Is it class or something else? " . What you achieve in early life will to a certain extent be governed by your parents and how much effort they put into teaching their offspring . It may be that some parents lack the necessary skills to either teach their children or set a good example . How many parents have made the effort to learn a second language such as French , German or Spanish..? | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who?" By left wing teachers and press | |||
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"EAL students get extra help to learn English. Maybe white British children need it too. " That's what the DfE report argues. | |||
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"I have helped out in schools at various times....reading...etc. The difficult kids...the ones hard to teach.....when sometimes you meet their parents you are amazed they are where they are...... Some of these kids come from the most difficult of circumstances..... One kids mum i met was a heroin addict and in a bad state.... The kid had to look after his mum...sort out food for the two of them....deal with random strangers with the same habit round his house....it brought a tear to my eye...... That kid was over-achieveing from where he came from...." I've seen similar. | |||
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"It's exam results day again. The overall pass rates have remained the same, although there are improvements in English and Maths as schools have been discouraged from entering pupils early. The analysis of exam achievement by class and ethnicity yet but the trend has been for white working class children to lag behind other groups. The research appears to show they fail because of their grasp of English. Those with English as a second or additional language do better. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jun/25/schools-attainment-gap-white-working-class-ethnic-minority-pupils-dfe Why are our white working class children failing? Is it class or something else? " this video below explains alot what gives you a more broad view of such stuff, i recommend you follow Stefan Molyneux who makes videos almost daily on many issues of today. The Decline and Fall of the West | Dr. Jim Penman and Stefan Molyneux https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9dcXOGD3fo | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press " Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? | |||
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"EAL students get extra help to learn English. Maybe white British children need it too. That's what the DfE report argues. " I think you will find that in many schools, they are getting it ... may take some time to filter through ... its a mammoth task | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? " Guilty as charged ... because teachers took care of me and nurtured me ... I give back. | |||
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"I have helped out in schools at various times....reading...etc. The difficult kids...the ones hard to teach.....when sometimes you meet their parents you are amazed they are where they are...... Some of these kids come from the most difficult of circumstances..... One kids mum i met was a heroin addict and in a bad state.... The kid had to look after his mum...sort out food for the two of them....deal with random strangers with the same habit round his house....it brought a tear to my eye...... That kid was over-achieveing from where he came from...." And sadly, these stories usually perpetuate themselves. A few of the kids I knew from school are already dead because their parents shared their habit or they tried it to satisfy curiosity. Sounds like the kid you're on about is smarter than that and will likely stay away from the "habit". I just hope that they don't lose faith in humanity, because it will be a slippery slope | |||
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"White British are traditionally under achievers in schools and it is a big big issue from the word go. Many come in to nursery and reception a year behind their peers. Part of this is aspirational as many parents just do not see the need or advantage of getting an education ... many have not had it themselves. Schools receive pupil premium money to 'close the gap' so there is no way these groups are neglected in any way as much of the money for interventions, both those in basic skills and social skills as well as those in enhancing life experiences, are funded by this money. schools have to show how they are closing the gap for these children because it is part of equal opportunities. Many schools work with parents to make the difference, some parents want their children to achieve, educationally and academically, but don't know how to support them, others are not so supportive of their children. The issue is a real one, high on the agenda every day in every school, in every lesson" A friend working in early years once described having to toilet train some of the children in her reception class. She said that every year she would have between 5 and 10 children who had not been toilet trained before being sent to school. | |||
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"We need to bring back corporal punishment. " How does hitting a child improve their educational attainment? Following the trend on attainment it would be mainly striking the white working class children. Is that a sensible lesson to give anyone? | |||
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"It's exam results day again. The overall pass rates have remained the same, although there are improvements in English and Maths as schools have been discouraged from entering pupils early. The analysis of exam achievement by class and ethnicity yet but the trend has been for white working class children to lag behind other groups. The research appears to show they fail because of their grasp of English. Those with English as a second or additional language do better. http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/jun/25/schools-attainment-gap-white-working-class-ethnic-minority-pupils-dfe Why are our white working class children failing? Is it class or something else? this video below explains alot what gives you a more broad view of such stuff, i recommend you follow Stefan Molyneux who makes videos almost daily on many issues of today. The Decline and Fall of the West | Dr. Jim Penman and Stefan Molyneux https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9dcXOGD3fo" I'll have a look at some point. | |||
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. Other groups have poor parenting too. What is the attitude that means being white and working class equals underachieving? I only have experience of the working class bit. My parents didn't push for me to do anything more than go to school. There was no help at home with homework and we had little money for books (very little for food on a Thursday). English is my first language but I grew up in 'Ackney in the really poor bits on estates with other working class people, white, black and everything else. What's the thing that is holding them back? Sense of entitlement? Sense of hopelessness? I can see a case for either of those possibilities, (and I don't like where one of them would go). I don't know. I don't know many kids these days and have no idea about yoofs or their culture. I'm from a white, working class family. I went to the local comprehensive school. It wasn't an ideal learning environment to say the least. My school had almost no non-white students though. Totally agree that a sense of entitlement is a big issue. This is made worse by the claims spread about immigrants. There has been an issue for a long time with kids who were born here feeling like they are entitled to something without having to make any effort. On top of that is the feeling that some jobs are beneath them. A work ethic has been lost somewhere. How do we put it back when they are still at school? " Reintroducing the concept of competition may help. How will anyone learn to work to achieve if there is no competition and no winners? There's sure as hell competition in the real world so children should be prepared for it and know they have to work for what they want. However, at the same time, schools need to recognise more than academic achievement and sporting achievement. Some kids will always be bottom in sports or maths but everyone is good at something. Schools need to work out what that is and help children shine in their own way. Funding having been cut for music, drama, and the like is a bad thing because it helped kids with different skills achieve recognition. | |||
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"We need to bring back corporal punishment. " no one learns respect by being hit, fear maybe or 'a fuck you, you wont see me show fear' neither of which are good for a child's education.. i was 'schooled' by catholic nuns and they were vicious, i did learn to duck though.. | |||
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"People speaking English as I second language grasp dat sum fings in da inglish langwidge need 2 b splt propa an not 2 yous bad gramma an spellin You've no idea how dirty I feel after typing that out I remember in my school days being marked down in maths, history, geography etc exams for poor spelling which I'm lead to believe isn't the case now " It is beginning to be again. Poor handwriting and spelling will give you a lower mark on your SATS. | |||
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. " LOL | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? " I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now" So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? " Yes, I would be interested to know that too | |||
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"you know i read an article about 3 years back on why white children underachieve in the western world, put family, wealth and health issues aside and deprevation, it showed in research that a high number have part of their brain switched off due to them and there was no fully conclusive reason for this, it was also shown that those that learn a second language from any early age tend to be more achievers in life. just pointing out, these are not my views" Thanks. Another person also contributed that having another language helps with achievement. | |||
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"you know i read an article about 3 years back on why white children underachieve in the western world, put family, wealth and health issues aside and deprevation, it showed in research that a high number have part of their brain switched off due to them and there was no fully conclusive reason for this, it was also shown that those that learn a second language from any early age tend to be more achievers in life. just pointing out, these are not my views Thanks. Another person also contributed that having another language helps with achievement. " it showed that learning a second language from an early age stimulates the brain further than having one language, if you google why american children underachieve it may bring up these links | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? " By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian | |||
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" By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian " interesting concept... one problem though.... you do know the "facts" you are rubbishing came directly from the Dept. of Education............ 
in my old school... they got a lot of the 6th formers after school to help with maths and english mini tutoring.... in return for extra-curiculum credits for uni applications.... | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian " It's a DfE report - I have made this point before.. I have been a school governor at both primary and secondary schools and I have volunteered in schools with reading. I get plenty of facts, ideas and research by going out and seeking it to help form my own opinions. I gave a link that provided a news report on a DfE report (again, stated earlier) as I can't imagine anyone here bothering to read the report. I have NEVER witnessed a white working class child in a classroom being treated like shit. I have seen some children, white and otherwise, giving their teachers shit though. | |||
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" By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian interesting concept... one problem though.... you do know the "facts" you are rubbishing came directly from the Dept. of Education............
in my old school... they got a lot of the 6th formers after school to help with maths and english mini tutoring.... in return for extra-curiculum credits for uni applications...."This is a good idea if executed properly. Classroom assistants in Secondary are being moved from Learning support to Behaviour Interventions. Someone has to deliver the extra teaching if Support staff are no longer able to. Which lessons do you take students out of to have the extra English lessons? Some won't want to come in early,use lunchtimes or stay after school,or won't be able to. | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian " Just curious, how many schools do you go into? How many teachers do you know or talk to? | |||
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"Ok guys shit was probably too strong a word but a lot of poor white kids are given up on for whatever reason" A lot of poor kids in general are let down by the system though and are given up on. | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian Just curious, how many schools do you go into? How many teachers do you know or talk to?" Loads, I'm a headmaster | |||
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"Ok guys shit was probably too strong a word but a lot of poor white kids are given up on for whatever reason" Again, I have never witnessed this. What I have seen is that all remedial help is individually assessed and delivered. | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian Just curious, how many schools do you go into? How many teachers do you know or talk to? Loads, I'm a headmaster" Well I hope you're not treating the children in your care like shit and take the time to read what is written, especially when it comes as guidance to you from DfE. | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian " You've clearly read the thread and the article very carefully. Well done. 0/10 Stay behind after class. | |||
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"When you have English as a second language you have to try harder to break down the langauge....... You are more likely to better results (even in English) because it being a foreign to you ,you have to be so good at the grammer just to pick up the langauge.... I found when i did French and Spanish i learned more about English grammer. When it's your first language the language just work..... But learning a foreign language you always have to know why you say it this way or why you say it that way...x" I think that depends Lot of children born in England have English as their second language, I moved to the UK when I was three, couldn't speak English but because I was so young I picked it up quick, by the time I was in secondary school my English was as good as any English person and I didn't have to try harder than anybody else nor did I see English as a foreign language And just for the record I passed all my exams and went to uni  | |||
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"Ok guys shit was probably too strong a word but a lot of poor white kids are given up on for whatever reason" Just white kids? | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian Just curious, how many schools do you go into? How many teachers do you know or talk to? Loads, I'm a headmaster" That may well be the most alarming thing I have ever read on this site. More alarming even than the daily barebacking thread.  | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian Just curious, how many schools do you go into? How many teachers do you know or talk to? Loads, I'm a headmaster" Well then you would be held accountable by Ofsted, and your school would be in special measures if it was happening there ... and you would have no moral sense of purpose, oh wait, its a private school, isn't it? | |||
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" in my old school... they got a lot of the 6th formers after school to help with maths and english mini tutoring.... in return for extra-curiculum credits for uni applications.... This is a good idea if executed properly. Classroom assistants in Secondary are being moved from Learning support to Behaviour Interventions. Someone has to deliver the extra teaching if Support staff are no longer able to. Which lessons do you take students out of to have the extra English lessons? Some won't want to come in early,use lunchtimes or stay after school,or won't be able to. " i can only talk for the way it was done in my school when i was there.... they never took kids out of lessons, and did it after school... only for an hour so as to not make it took later.... i think it helps as the older kids could relate to the younger ones sometimes in the way that teachers can't.... also i think it gave the older kids a much better empathy for what teachers go thru.... i think the thing that helped the older kids is that you became invested in how the younger ones did.... it was all voluntary but you found you didn't want to let them down, and vice versa.... | |||
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"We need to bring back corporal punishment. How does hitting a child improve their educational attainment? Following the trend on attainment it would be mainly striking the white working class children. Is that a sensible lesson to give anyone? " how does hitting a child improve anything ? | |||
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"We need to bring back corporal punishment. " Amen to that If a child's underachieving beat it till it learns
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. Other groups have poor parenting too. What is the attitude that means being white and working class equals underachieving? I only have experience of the working class bit. My parents didn't push for me to do anything more than go to school. There was no help at home with homework and we had little money for books (very little for food on a Thursday). English is my first language but I grew up in 'Ackney in the really poor bits on estates with other working class people, white, black and everything else. What's the thing that is holding them back? Sense of entitlement? Sense of hopelessness? I can see a case for either of those possibilities, (and I don't like where one of them would go). I don't know. I don't know many kids these days and have no idea about yoofs or their culture. I'm from a white, working class family. I went to the local comprehensive school. It wasn't an ideal learning environment to say the least. My school had almost no non-white students though. Entitlement and hopelessness.
No jobs so why bovver."Is it worth the aggravation to find yourself a job when there's nothing worth working for? | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education" I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. " Maybe it's a problem in countries where English is the predominant language. | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. " Perhaps its something as simple as a sense of hope. Maybe those who have recently arrived have more faith in the old lie; Arbeit Macht Frei. | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. Maybe it's a problem in countries where English is the predominant language. " ... because the rest of the world learns English and we don't have to bother to learn their languages? Very possible. | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. Perhaps its something as simple as a sense of hope. Maybe those who have recently arrived have more faith in the old lie; Arbeit Macht Frei." Is education just about work though? | |||
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"Arbeit Macht Would you like Frei with that?"  | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. Maybe it's a problem in countries where English is the predominant language. ... because the rest of the world learns English and we don't have to bother to learn their languages? Very possible. " Yup, that was what I was thinking. | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. Maybe it's a problem in countries where English is the predominant language. ... because the rest of the world learns English and we don't have to bother to learn their languages? Very possible. " Funny you should say that, was having a discussion the other day and we said near enough the very same thing. As a country maybe we have become a little lazy? Nearly everywhere you go they speak English. | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. Perhaps its something as simple as a sense of hope. Maybe those who have recently arrived have more faith in the old lie; Arbeit Macht Frei. Is education just about work though? " By and large it is a production line, turning out proles who conform and possibly singling out those who show 'promise' for greater things. The underclass, as always are thrown on the pile - the system has no use for them anyway. | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. Maybe it's a problem in countries where English is the predominant language. ... because the rest of the world learns English and we don't have to bother to learn their languages? Very possible. Funny you should say that, was having a discussion the other day and we said near enough the very same thing. As a country maybe we have become a little lazy? Nearly everywhere you go they speak English. " its one of their biggest worries in economic development as developing countries from africa and far east are outperforming and overtaking western english based countries, one of their conclusions was the the language of learning only their native tongue | |||
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"Maybe they don't achieve because some schools don't provide the discipline and structure they don't get at home. How many times have there been new heads come into a failing school and turn them around just by introducing a new ethos to the school?. Can only talk from my experience my comprehensive in the last 3 years i was there, was as shit as you could get - teachers couldn't be bothered, no leadership from a weak headmaster and lots of pupils having to resit their GCSE's at college. No surprise that the school was put into special measures about a year after i left. " That's over 20 years ago though. | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. Perhaps its something as simple as a sense of hope. Maybe those who have recently arrived have more faith in the old lie; Arbeit Macht Frei. Is education just about work though? By and large it is a production line, turning out proles who conform and possibly singling out those who show 'promise' for greater things. The underclass, as always are thrown on the pile - the system has no use for them anyway. " The system operates on having a large number do the things those singled out for greater things won't do. | |||
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" A friend working in early years once described having to toilet train some of the children in her reception class. She said that every year she would have between 5 and 10 children who had not been toilet trained before being sent to school." This I know does happen although maybe not as many as you mention. | |||
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"“The human race is the most stupid and unfair kind of race. A lot of the runners don't even get decent sneakers or clean drinking water. Some runners are born with a massive head start, every possible help along the way and still the referees seem to be on their side. It's not surprising a lot of people have given up compeating altogether and gone to sit in the grandstand, eat junk and shout abuse. What the human race needs is a lot more streakers.”" Exactly | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian Just curious, how many schools do you go into? How many teachers do you know or talk to? Loads, I'm a headmaster" Really? | |||
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"It's sad to read some of the comments on this forum, which largely rely on uninformed comment blaming the foreigners. In my experience poor white kids only do as well as their parents encourage them to, much like kids from other races funnily enough. The need to learn English as a second language doesn't give kids with foreign parents some sort of inherent advantage. That's bollocks. In my experience, both personally and from those of people I grew up with and have known in my adult life, parents don't have to be intelligent themselves to push their kids. But when their expectations are low and they fill their kids with a lot of lies those kids get affected and have tried less hard. My mother was an immigrant to this country. I was born here. She brought me up by herself and always emphasised the important of education, despite not having much of one herself. From the age of 12 she struggled to help me with my homework but she never stopped pushing me. Around me I've seen kids that I went to school with do well and others that didn't. Generally you can trace their motivation to to do well in exams to their parents or other close members of their family. Race is not an influencing factor in the UK. Poor white kids didn't suddenly get carpets whipped out from under them because of foreigners. I also have a close friend that grew up in London in a predominantly non white school. She did well despite this supposed disadvantage and she also has a more diverse mix of friends too. I do believe that the period where children were not being marked down for poor English has had an influence, alongside the more gentle parenting and non-competitive schooling that has dominated the country over the past couple of decades. " Thanks. Parents, marking down poor use of English and more competition in schools... how do we address the poverty of aspirations? | |||
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"Because in certain areas of the country white working class kids are treated like shit but you can't be racist to a white kid in England can you Out of curiously, treated like shit by who? By left wing teachers and press Thanks. I see you have thought this through. What about the left wing ones who were white working class kids in their day? I see you've thought this through. They had a better education then. They are just misguided or afraid now So that leads them to treating white kids like shit? How are they doing that? By concentrating their efforts towards non white kids so as not to appear racist . To be 'right on'eh? Maybe you should get some opinions/ideas/facts/research that doesn't come from the garbage that is the Guardian Just curious, how many schools do you go into? How many teachers do you know or talk to? Loads, I'm a headmaster Really? " No, not really | |||
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" A friend working in early years once described having to toilet train some of the children in her reception class. She said that every year she would have between 5 and 10 children who had not been toilet trained before being sent to school. This I know does happen although maybe not as many as you mention. " She described turning it in to a lesson getting the children who knew how to use the toilet to encourage the others. | |||
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"There are a lot of white youths who couldn't care less about education They are too busy thinking about drink drugs abusing each other online and looking hard It takes another 10 years to realise their mistakes" The drop off starts quite early, I hope they haven't started drinking and using drugs at 7. | |||
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" . If London schools have every language known represented , it may be putting white working class children at a disadvantage in the learning process as too many resources are being devoted to assisting those to whom English is not their mother language . They are all taught together still, in English. Those without English have to catch up. . " I doubt if this is is the case really as you can't leave kids sat doing nothing and hope they catch up. A teacher I know personally had pupils with five different languages in her class last year. Out of those 12 children five not knowing any English at all at the start of the year, it has to take away time from other children in the class when trying to teach. | |||
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"There are a lot of white youths who couldn't care less about education They are too busy thinking about drink drugs abusing each other online and looking hard It takes another 10 years to realise their mistakes The drop off starts quite early, I hope they haven't started drinking and using drugs at 7. " By year 7 they have | |||
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"in the usa in there was a senate committee hearing linked with yale university, feel free to google a dont know the the exact link and the question was why do american children under achieve and children from developing countries far out class them in all areas of main stream edcution. that is one of the biggest concerns in western education I haven't seen anything like this for continental European western countries. I wonder if this is something more cultural about America and the UK. Perhaps its something as simple as a sense of hope. Maybe those who have recently arrived have more faith in the old lie; Arbeit Macht Frei. Is education just about work though? By and large it is a production line, turning out proles who conform and possibly singling out those who show 'promise' for greater things. The underclass, as always are thrown on the pile - the system has no use for them anyway. The system operates on having a large number do the things those singled out for greater things won't do. " And so; my point was that perhaps those recently arrived have more faith in whatever our version of the "American dream" is, whereas those who have been maligned for generations are either defeated by or operate outside of the system. National curricula narrow, "academies" blossom, even the notion of intellectual capital is no longer a reason to keep education broad - vocational qualifications loom in state education because those attending do not need to think like leaders. They will be (are?) led by those with a public school education. | |||
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" . If London schools have every language known represented , it may be putting white working class children at a disadvantage in the learning process as too many resources are being devoted to assisting those to whom English is not their mother language . They are all taught together still, in English. Those without English have to catch up. . I doubt if this is is the case really as you can't leave kids sat doing nothing and hope they catch up. A teacher I know personally had pupils with five different languages in her class last year. Out of those 12 children five not knowing any English at all at the start of the year, it has to take away time from other children in the class when trying to teach." Not if you differentiate your lessons appropriately and have support in place ... plus much of the time, the parents are desperate for their children to catch up and will do all they can at home to get them there | |||
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"Another lesson is how to eat using a knife and fork, table manners and sitting down and eating together ... ever tried eating yogurt with your hands ... some children haven't used a knife, fork or spoon or eaten anything cooked at home .... and I don't mean only fancy take away either" One local secondary arranges lunch in 'family' groups for their first year. They take it in turns to serve each other, sit together, use the cutlery and learn to sit and eat. The next year they are free to do as the wish at lunch. | |||
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" Not if you differentiate your lessons appropriately and have support in place ... plus much of the time, the parents are desperate for their children to catch up and will do all they can at home to get them there" To be fair, the children with a second language had parents just like you say. Support costs more money | |||
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"To the OP...I think the buck has to start with the parents before they start school and the parents attitude to education. There are lots of parents who never involve themselves in their childs education and don't encourage their offspring to do well." I agree but we have the problem that they get to school and then the school is blamed for their poor performance. The same parents will happily blame the school for failing. As the children have no choice about their parents or the parenting they receive, or the school they attend it does become a public policy issue. We are relying on these children to one day earn and pay into the system so that our pensions are paid to us. | |||
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" Not if you differentiate your lessons appropriately and have support in place ... plus much of the time, the parents are desperate for their children to catch up and will do all they can at home to get them there To be fair, the children with a second language had parents just like you say. Support costs more money" It does. It also goes to underachieving children with English as first language. | |||
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" Not if you differentiate your lessons appropriately and have support in place ... plus much of the time, the parents are desperate for their children to catch up and will do all they can at home to get them there To be fair, the children with a second language had parents just like you say. Support costs more money It does. It also goes to underachieving children with English as first language. " I have no doubt about that. I was more saying there has to be the finances there to support it. | |||
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" in my old school... they got a lot of the 6th formers after school to help with maths and english mini tutoring.... in return for extra-curiculum credits for uni applications.... This is a good idea if executed properly. Classroom assistants in Secondary are being moved from Learning support to Behaviour Interventions. Someone has to deliver the extra teaching if Support staff are no longer able to. Which lessons do you take students out of to have the extra English lessons? Some won't want to come in early,use lunchtimes or stay after school,or won't be able to. i can only talk for the way it was done in my school when i was there.... they never took kids out of lessons, and did it after school... only for an hour so as to not make it took later.... i think it helps as the older kids could relate to the younger ones sometimes in the way that teachers can't.... also i think it gave the older kids a much better empathy for what teachers go thru.... i think the thing that helped the older kids is that you became invested in how the younger ones did.... it was all voluntary but you found you didn't want to let them down, and vice versa.... " That's an awesome point! Having an investment in a program will bring about progress for all. The younger ones learn and the older ones come to understand the process of learning. In addition, by having the older ones work with the younger students, the levels of anxiety will be reduced from the younger ones. | |||
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"Economics do have an impact on learning and education. However, as stated by the gentleman I quoted, investment in the schools can help greatly. If schools reach out to the families by offering support and guidance, the students will make progress. That can be a key regardless of economics." It is a partnership but it needs the commitment from both sides. | |||
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"To the OP...I think the buck has to start with the parents before they start school and the parents attitude to education. There are lots of parents who never involve themselves in their childs education and don't encourage their offspring to do well. I agree but we have the problem that they get to school and then the school is blamed for their poor performance. The same parents will happily blame the school for failing. As the children have no choice about their parents or the parenting they receive, or the school they attend it does become a public policy issue. We are relying on these children to one day earn and pay into the system so that our pensions are paid to us. " . Only some people will be relying on these children to pay into the system in order that our pensions are paid . Others will have taken out private. pension schemes . The reality of life is that some of these children are deemed to fail and there is very little that we can do to help them. We should not blame the state , it is the parents responsibility to make an attempt to educate their children.. | |||
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"Economics do have an impact on learning and education. However, as stated by the gentleman I quoted, investment in the schools can help greatly. If schools reach out to the families by offering support and guidance, the students will make progress. That can be a key regardless of economics. It is a partnership but it needs the commitment from both sides. " Partnership? How on earth is indoctrination a partnership? | |||
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"To the OP...I think the buck has to start with the parents before they start school and the parents attitude to education. There are lots of parents who never involve themselves in their childs education and don't encourage their offspring to do well. I agree but we have the problem that they get to school and then the school is blamed for their poor performance. The same parents will happily blame the school for failing. As the children have no choice about their parents or the parenting they receive, or the school they attend it does become a public policy issue. We are relying on these children to one day earn and pay into the system so that our pensions are paid to us. . Only some people will be relying on these children to pay into the system in order that our pensions are paid . Others will have taken out private. pension schemes . The reality of life is that some of these children are deemed to fail and there is very little that we can do to help them. We should not blame the state , it is the parents responsibility to make an attempt to educate their children.." What the actual fuck are you talking about? How on earth is it in the interests of the state for parents to educate their children? It is in the interests of the state for the state to educate children with parents toeing the line. | |||
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"Indoctrination?! I guess we don't need no education. We don't need no thought control. Maybe there should only be home schooling for all. The point is a child's education is only as good as the community that supports it. If there is no support, then there will be no success. " See my earlier point: National curricula narrow, "academies" blossom, even the notion of intellectual capital is no longer a reason to keep education broad - vocational qualifications loom in state education because those attending do not need to think like leaders. They will be (are?) led by those with a public school education. | |||
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"Indoctrination?! I guess we don't need no education. We don't need no thought control. Maybe there should only be home schooling for all. The point is a child's education is only as good as the community that supports it. If there is no support, then there will be no success. See my earlier point: National curricula narrow, "academies" blossom, even the notion of intellectual capital is no longer a reason to keep education broad - vocational qualifications loom in state education because those attending do not need to think like leaders. They will be (are?) led by those with a public school education. " The sods may govern but they won't be leading me anywhere! I read an interesting article recently about why boarding schools, especially in cases where children are sent to them very early, as is common for the type of twats we currently have in government, produce people who are very poorly equipped to be leaders. I'm trying to remember where I read it. | |||
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"Indoctrination?! I guess we don't need no education. We don't need no thought control. Maybe there should only be home schooling for all. The point is a child's education is only as good as the community that supports it. If there is no support, then there will be no success. See my earlier point: National curricula narrow, "academies" blossom, even the notion of intellectual capital is no longer a reason to keep education broad - vocational qualifications loom in state education because those attending do not need to think like leaders. They will be (are?) led by those with a public school education. The sods may govern but they won't be leading me anywhere! I read an interesting article recently about why boarding schools, especially in cases where children are sent to them very early, as is common for the type of twats we currently have in government, produce people who are very poorly equipped to be leaders. I'm trying to remember where I read it." They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. | |||
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"The committee who created our national curriculum was not qualified for to take on the job. Experts in our country who do know what's up, but who may not be politically correct, were ignored. School attendance is money. That's all it's become. So it's up to the people to make education mean something." And they used to, before the left were crushed in the 80s. I can still remember my grandad, in a spot of "post Stalin" guilt, justifying his membership of the Communist party by saying that he "did it for the books". | |||
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"Indoctrination?! I guess we don't need no education. We don't need no thought control. Maybe there should only be home schooling for all. The point is a child's education is only as good as the community that supports it. If there is no support, then there will be no success. See my earlier point: National curricula narrow, "academies" blossom, even the notion of intellectual capital is no longer a reason to keep education broad - vocational qualifications loom in state education because those attending do not need to think like leaders. They will be (are?) led by those with a public school education. The sods may govern but they won't be leading me anywhere! I read an interesting article recently about why boarding schools, especially in cases where children are sent to them very early, as is common for the type of twats we currently have in government, produce people who are very poorly equipped to be leaders. I'm trying to remember where I read it. They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. " Absolutely. Their education is part of the problem too. It turns out emotionally damaged bullies or bumbling inepts. If we're looking at it from the point if view of the good of the country, it's not just the education of the poor that is harming the economic prosperity. The entire system is fucked up. But I digress from the actual point of the thread. | |||
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"To the OP...I think the buck has to start with the parents before they start school and the parents attitude to education. There are lots of parents who never involve themselves in their childs education and don't encourage their offspring to do well. I agree but we have the problem that they get to school and then the school is blamed for their poor performance. The same parents will happily blame the school for failing. As the children have no choice about their parents or the parenting they receive, or the school they attend it does become a public policy issue. We are relying on these children to one day earn and pay into the system so that our pensions are paid to us. . Only some people will be relying on these children to pay into the system in order that our pensions are paid . Others will have taken out private. pension schemes . The reality of life is that some of these children are deemed to fail and there is very little that we can do to help them. We should not blame the state , it is the parents responsibility to make an attempt to educate their children.. What the actual fuck are you talking about? How on earth is it in the interests of the state for parents to educate their children? It is in the interests of the state for the state to educate children with parents toeing the line. " . As the funds available for education are limited , it is very much in the interests of everyone that parents make an attempt to educate their children..The state or various exam boards may set exams but it is both the responsibility of the parents and teachers to see that the relevant standards are achieved. | |||
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"To the OP...I think the buck has to start with the parents before they start school and the parents attitude to education. There are lots of parents who never involve themselves in their childs education and don't encourage their offspring to do well. I agree but we have the problem that they get to school and then the school is blamed for their poor performance. The same parents will happily blame the school for failing. As the children have no choice about their parents or the parenting they receive, or the school they attend it does become a public policy issue. We are relying on these children to one day earn and pay into the system so that our pensions are paid to us. . Only some people will be relying on these children to pay into the system in order that our pensions are paid . Others will have taken out private. pension schemes . The reality of life is that some of these children are deemed to fail and there is very little that we can do to help them. We should not blame the state , it is the parents responsibility to make an attempt to educate their children.. What the actual fuck are you talking about? How on earth is it in the interests of the state for parents to educate their children? It is in the interests of the state for the state to educate children with parents toeing the line. . As the funds available for education are limited , it is very much in the interests of everyone that parents make an attempt to educate their children..The state or various exam boards may set exams but it is both the responsibility of the parents and teachers to see that the relevant standards are achieved. " Hang on... So you are saying that the poor old state is lacking funds to indoctrinate its children and that the parents should somehow do it for them? Or are you agreeing with my post that the state educates children, but expects parents to toe the line (that a state education is worthwhile) at home? | |||
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"To the OP...I think the buck has to start with the parents before they start school and the parents attitude to education. There are lots of parents who never involve themselves in their childs education and don't encourage their offspring to do well. I agree but we have the problem that they get to school and then the school is blamed for their poor performance. The same parents will happily blame the school for failing. As the children have no choice about their parents or the parenting they receive, or the school they attend it does become a public policy issue. We are relying on these children to one day earn and pay into the system so that our pensions are paid to us. . Only some people will be relying on these children to pay into the system in order that our pensions are paid . Others will have taken out private. pension schemes . The reality of life is that some of these children are deemed to fail and there is very little that we can do to help them. We should not blame the state , it is the parents responsibility to make an attempt to educate their children.. What the actual fuck are you talking about? How on earth is it in the interests of the state for parents to educate their children? It is in the interests of the state for the state to educate children with parents toeing the line. . As the funds available for education are limited , it is very much in the interests of everyone that parents make an attempt to educate their children..The state or various exam boards may set exams but it is both the responsibility of the parents and teachers to see that the relevant standards are achieved. " Sometimes that is hard though, with new exams coming out ... new SATS for year 2, based on new curriculum and the full information on them is not out until may next year, the 'exams' are in June .... ho hum ... I have helped my two sons to A level and GCSE success supporting their teachers ... I have two masters degrees and work in education myself ... I found the breadth of it a challenge, A levels in PE Psychology and History for my oldest and a spatter of GCSEs for middle one ... they did well, but can every parent do this ... especially if they don't have an in with the system themselves?? | |||
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"Indoctrination?! I guess we don't need no education. We don't need no thought control. Maybe there should only be home schooling for all. The point is a child's education is only as good as the community that supports it. If there is no support, then there will be no success. See my earlier point: National curricula narrow, "academies" blossom, even the notion of intellectual capital is no longer a reason to keep education broad - vocational qualifications loom in state education because those attending do not need to think like leaders. They will be (are?) led by those with a public school education. The sods may govern but they won't be leading me anywhere! I read an interesting article recently about why boarding schools, especially in cases where children are sent to them very early, as is common for the type of twats we currently have in government, produce people who are very poorly equipped to be leaders. I'm trying to remember where I read it. They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. " . The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . | |||
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"The committee who created our national curriculum was not qualified for to take on the job. Experts in our country who do know what's up, but who may not be politically correct, were ignored. School attendance is money. That's all it's become. So it's up to the people to make education mean something." Your system is different to ours. I went on a visit to NYC to look at the free schools models, the community schools, state schools (or public schools as you call them) back in the early 2000s. We then imported those models here, but without the level of community financial aid or philanthropy used (e.g. the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation funded schools). | |||
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"...... They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. . The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . " Or the right parents or the right chums. | |||
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"To the OP...I think the buck has to start with the parents before they start school and the parents attitude to education. There are lots of parents who never involve themselves in their childs education and don't encourage their offspring to do well. I agree but we have the problem that they get to school and then the school is blamed for their poor performance. The same parents will happily blame the school for failing. As the children have no choice about their parents or the parenting they receive, or the school they attend it does become a public policy issue. We are relying on these children to one day earn and pay into the system so that our pensions are paid to us. . Only some people will be relying on these children to pay into the system in order that our pensions are paid . Others will have taken out private. pension schemes . The reality of life is that some of these children are deemed to fail and there is very little that we can do to help them. We should not blame the state , it is the parents responsibility to make an attempt to educate their children.. What the actual fuck are you talking about? How on earth is it in the interests of the state for parents to educate their children? It is in the interests of the state for the state to educate children with parents toeing the line. . As the funds available for education are limited , it is very much in the interests of everyone that parents make an attempt to educate their children..The state or various exam boards may set exams but it is both the responsibility of the parents and teachers to see that the relevant standards are achieved. " Setting aside whether parents are responsible for educating their children, because I don't agree that they are, and focusing on parents needing to have an active role in ensuring schools can educate them, some parents are nit interested in playing any role at all. They consider it the school's responsibility and the school's failure if the child performs badly. How do you propose to force parents to take this active, supportive role? | |||
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" The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . " Which is exactly what I said, the sate school system isn't there to turn out leaders, it is there to ensure that the call centres are well staffed and that nobody questions their place within the system. | |||
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" The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . Which is exactly what I said, the sate school system isn't there to turn out leaders, it is there to ensure that the call centres are well staffed and that nobody questions their place within the system. " Yep, it is. My school was exactly like that. They wanted to turn out meek little automatons that did exactly as they were told and didn't question authority. The brighter students were held back and the less academically able were dragged up to meet them. They wanted pretty much everyone at the same level, working at the same speed, progressing at the same rate. Individuality was not only not encouraged but they did their best to squish it out of people. | |||
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"...... They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. . The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . Or the right parents or the right chums." . Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . | |||
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"...... They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. . The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . Or the right parents or the right chums.. Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are ." And yet the majority of MPs were privately educated. See also: the majority of business leaders. If you think that we live in a meritocracy, you are seriously deluded. | |||
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"...... They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. . The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . Or the right parents or the right chums.. Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are ." Are you sure about that? | |||
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" The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . Which is exactly what I said, the sate school system isn't there to turn out leaders, it is there to ensure that the call centres are well staffed and that nobody questions their place within the system. " . How can anyone say that the state system is not there to turn out leaders? The role of the school is to educate pupils . You become a leader by making exceptional achievements in life . How could a school stop any talented individual from making these achievements throughout life ?. | |||
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"...... They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. . The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . Or the right parents or the right chums.. Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are ." Bullshit. In leadership it's very much an old boys club and about who one knows rather than what one knows or has achieved. If it were about success the people at the top would be more diverse in terms of gender, colour and background. This country is still lead by white, ostensibly cis-gendered men. Those men are no more capable of success than many men or women, both straight, bi- or gay and from any race or ethnic background. Those men "succeed" because of the opportunities they are given, because their fuck-ups get covered up or blamed on a scapegoat and because of who they know. | |||
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"To the OP...I think the buck has to start with the parents before they start school and the parents attitude to education. There are lots of parents who never involve themselves in their childs education and don't encourage their offspring to do well. I agree but we have the problem that they get to school and then the school is blamed for their poor performance. The same parents will happily blame the school for failing. As the children have no choice about their parents or the parenting they receive, or the school they attend it does become a public policy issue. We are relying on these children to one day earn and pay into the system so that our pensions are paid to us. . Only some people will be relying on these children to pay into the system in order that our pensions are paid . Others will have taken out private. pension schemes . The reality of life is that some of these chil. dren are deemed to fail and there is very little that we can do to help them. We should not blame the state , it is the parents responsibility to make an attempt to educate their children.. What the actual fuck are you talking about? How on earth is it in the interests of the state for parents to educate their children? It is in the interests of the state for the state to educate children with parents toeing the line. . As the funds available for education are limited , it is very much in the interests of everyone that parents make an attempt to educate their children..The state or various exam boards may set exams but it is both the responsibility of the parents and teachers to see that the relevant standards are achieved. Setting aside whether parents are responsible for educating their children, because I don't agree that they are, and focusing on parents needing to have an active role in ensuring schools can educate them, some parents are nit interested in playing any role at all. They consider it the school's responsibility and the school's failure if the child performs badly. How do you propose to force parents to take this active, supportive role?" . I don't have a solution to your question . However I do not blame schools for the failure of certain children. Nothing in life is completely fair and. sadly some children are deemed to fail. | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that?" “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 | |||
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" The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . Which is exactly what I said, the sate school system isn't there to turn out leaders, it is there to ensure that the call centres are well staffed and that nobody questions their place within the system. . How can anyone say that the state system is not there to turn out leaders? The role of the school is to educate pupils . You become a leader by making exceptional achievements in life . How could a school stop any talented individual from making these achievements throughout life ?." State schools teach a different skill set to private or public schools. State schools focus on creating workers that do as they are told. Public and private schools teach leadership skills. And, just as vital are the opportunities one's family and friends can offer in order for that success to be achieved. | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that? “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 " So back to my starting point, it's about class. | |||
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"...... They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. . The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . Or the right parents or the right chums.. Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Bullshit. In leadership it's very much an old boys club and about who one knows rather than what one knows or has achieved. If it were about success the people at the top would be more diverse in terms of gender, colour and background. This country is still lead by white, ostensibly cis-gendered men. Those men are no more capable of success than many men or women, both straight, bi- or gay and from any race or ethnic background. Those men "succeed" because of the opportunities they are given, because their fuck-ups get covered up or blamed on a scapegoat and because of who they know." . When I think of people that I know who have achieved incredible success , it is a combination of skill, determination , hard work and dedicating their whole life to what they are trying to achieve . Attempt to cover something up and you would be out of a job promptly . | |||
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" How do you propose to force parents to take this active, supportive role?. I don't have a solution to your question . However I do not blame schools for the failure of certain children. Nothing in life is completely fair and. sadly some children are deemed to fail. " Deemed? I think you mean doomed. You've missed the point. This isn't about blaming the schools. It is the disinterested parents that blame the schools. We need children to be educated, yes? Schools exist to educate children but, without the support of the parents, they are not being able to fully achieve this. There are three options: 1. We leave the kids to fail. Not really an option because it will ultimately be bad for the State. 2. We force parents to fulfil the necessary role. You say you don't know how to do that and I sure as hell don't either. 3. The education system or State find another way to achieve the necessary result without the help of the unhelpful parents. This thread is largely about what that could be. | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that? “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 So back to my starting point, it's about class." It usually is. | |||
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"...... They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. . The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . Or the right parents or the right chums.. Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Bullshit. In leadership it's very much an old boys club and about who one knows rather than what one knows or has achieved. If it were about success the people at the top would be more diverse in terms of gender, colour and background. This country is still lead by white, ostensibly cis-gendered men. Those men are no more capable of success than many men or women, both straight, bi- or gay and from any race or ethnic background. Those men "succeed" because of the opportunities they are given, because their fuck-ups get covered up or blamed on a scapegoat and because of who they know.. When I think of people that I know who have achieved incredible success , it is a combination of skill, determination , hard work and dedicating their whole life to what they are trying to achieve . Attempt to cover something up and you would be out of a job promptly . " The recent paedophile cover up proves your point exactly, covered up and no jobs lost, nothing comes out until now .... lots of cover ups | |||
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"...... They may be poorly equipped, and yet there they are, leading all major political parties, waging the class war, as ever they did. . The reality is that some of the most successfull people in the country went to boarding school. You don't become a leader by chance . You have to have years or decades of non stop success to be one . Or the right parents or the right chums.. Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Bullshit. In leadership it's very much an old boys club and about who one knows rather than what one knows or has achieved. If it were about success the people at the top would be more diverse in terms of gender, colour and background. This country is still lead by white, ostensibly cis-gendered men. Those men are no more capable of success than many men or women, both straight, bi- or gay and from any race or ethnic background. Those men "succeed" because of the opportunities they are given, because their fuck-ups get covered up or blamed on a scapegoat and because of who they know.. When I think of people that I know who have achieved incredible success , it is a combination of skill, determination , hard work and dedicating their whole life to what they are trying to achieve . Attempt to cover something up and you would be out of a job promptly . " Get real. Politicians, industry leaders, police chiefs, heads of the judiciary etc are involved in lying, scandals, cover-ups and dodgy deals constantly. When you speak of these successful people you've known, what is it you are considering to be success? | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that? “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 So back to my starting point, it's about class. It usually is." Usually? It's a rare occasion when it isn't. | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that? “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 So back to my starting point, it's about class. It usually is. Usually? It's a rare occasion when it isn't. " I'd love to be able to argue with that, and not only for the sheer joy of being obstreperous. Sadly I can't. It's spot on. | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that? “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 So back to my starting point, it's about class. It usually is. Usually? It's a rare occasion when it isn't. I'd love to be able to argue with that, and not only for the sheer joy of being obstreperous. Sadly I can't. It's spot on." I once knew a fabulous leader in his field, through work. When I asked him about his career and how he had got into that field his answer was simple: it had been the family business for the last 400+ years. The business name didn't match his until you looked back three mergers. He admitted he had been groomed to lead the firm but still argued anyone could achieve the same if they worked hard enough. Most of us don't have 400 years of connections though. | |||
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. Other groups have poor parenting too. What is the attitude that means being white and working class equals underachieving? I only have experience of the working class bit. My parents didn't push for me to do anything more than go to school. There was no help at home with homework and we had little money for books (very little for food on a Thursday). English is my first language but I grew up in 'Ackney in the really poor bits on estates with other working class people, white, black and everything else. What's the thing that is holding them back? " | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that? “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 So back to my starting point, it's about class. It usually is. Usually? It's a rare occasion when it isn't. I'd love to be able to argue with that, and not only for the sheer joy of being obstreperous. Sadly I can't. It's spot on. I once knew a fabulous leader in his field, through work. When I asked him about his career and how he had got into that field his answer was simple: it had been the family business for the last 400+ years. The business name didn't match his until you looked back three mergers. He admitted he had been groomed to lead the firm but still argued anyone could achieve the same if they worked hard enough. Most of us don't have 400 years of connections though. " . However he would still need considerable skills in order to achieve results . It does not matter how many connections you have , you are ultimately responsible for the performance of the businness. An inherited businness is no guarantee of success unless you also have all the relevant skills to run it . If you did not have these skills , it could be the road to ruin.. | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that? “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 So back to my starting point, it's about class. It usually is. Usually? It's a rare occasion when it isn't. I'd love to be able to argue with that, and not only for the sheer joy of being obstreperous. Sadly I can't. It's spot on. I once knew a fabulous leader in his field, through work. When I asked him about his career and how he had got into that field his answer was simple: it had been the family business for the last 400+ years. The business name didn't match his until you looked back three mergers. He admitted he had been groomed to lead the firm but still argued anyone could achieve the same if they worked hard enough. Most of us don't have 400 years of connections though. . However he would still need considerable skills in order to achieve results . It does not matter how many connections you have , you are ultimately responsible for the performance of the businness. An inherited businness is no guarantee of success unless you also have all the relevant skills to run it . If you did not have these skills , it could be the road to ruin.." I'm not suggesting he didn't have skills. We acquire skills. He was taught those skills. He would not have been taught those skills if he wasn't related to the founder. | |||
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. Other groups have poor parenting too. What is the attitude that means being white and working class equals underachieving? I only have experience of the working class bit. My parents didn't push for me to do anything more than go to school. There was no help at home with homework and we had little money for books (very little for food on a Thursday). English is my first language but I grew up in 'Ackney in the really poor bits on estates with other working class people, white, black and everything else. What's the thing that is holding them back? "I am not from 'ackney' but I empathise with this. My parents didn't know how to help me even though I are intelligent people | |||
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"Poor parenting, attitude etc maybe.. bet some will blame those bloody foreigners coming over here and nicking 'all our top marks' though.. Other groups have poor parenting too. What is the attitude that means being white and working class equals underachieving? I only have experience of the working class bit. My parents didn't push for me to do anything more than go to school. There was no help at home with homework and we had little money for books (very little for food on a Thursday). English is my first language but I grew up in 'Ackney in the really poor bits on estates with other working class people, white, black and everything else. What's the thing that is holding them back?
I am not from 'ackney' but I empathise with this. My parents didn't know how to help me even though I are intelligent people
"My parents didn't lack intelligence but they both lacked education and opportunity. Both had to go out to work very young but in later life my mother came into her own chairing various committees, being civic and getting training in leadership in order to do it well. | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that? “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 So back to my starting point, it's about class. It usually is. Usually? It's a rare occasion when it isn't. I'd love to be able to argue with that, and not only for the sheer joy of being obstreperous. Sadly I can't. It's spot on. I once knew a fabulous leader in his field, through work. When I asked him about his career and how he had got into that field his answer was simple: it had been the family business for the last 400+ years. The business name didn't match his until you looked back three mergers. He admitted he had been groomed to lead the firm but still argued anyone could achieve the same if they worked hard enough. Most of us don't have 400 years of connections though. . However he would still need considerable skills in order to achieve results . It does not matter how many connections you have , you are ultimately responsible for the performance of the businness. An inherited businness is no guarantee of success unless you also have all the relevant skills to run it . If you did not have these skills , it could be the road to ruin.." Oh, I forgot to mention, he ran one of those businesses that created the global financial crash. | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that? “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 So back to my starting point, it's about class. It usually is. Usually? It's a rare occasion when it isn't. I'd love to be able to argue with that, and not only for the sheer joy of being obstreperous. Sadly I can't. It's spot on. I once knew a fabulous leader in his field, through work. When I asked him about his career and how he had got into that field his answer was simple: it had been the family business for the last 400+ years. The business name didn't match his until you looked back three mergers. He admitted he had been groomed to lead the firm but still argued anyone could achieve the same if they worked hard enough. Most of us don't have 400 years of connections though. . However he would still need considerable skills in order to achieve results . It does not matter how many connections you have , you are ultimately responsible for the performance of the businness. An inherited businness is no guarantee of success unless you also have all the relevant skills to run it . If you did not have these skills , it could be the road to ruin.. Oh, I forgot to mention, he ran one of those businesses that created the global financial crash. "That global financial crash in which nobody at the top lost their job. Which is, of course, nothing to do with family or connections. | |||
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"Combination of a few thingsi assume........ I don't doubt that the sense of entitlement and poor work ethic have a huge part to play in this and they should not be overlooked as contributory factors. I'd also be inclined to believe that the increase in additional cultures/languages into schools means that white British children almost become 'less of a priority' as the focus shifts on ensuring that more is done to bring other ethnicities up to scratch and ensure they get the support required. Not based on evidence, just a hunch/belief." I quite agree as have experienced this first hand,when my eldest was 7 and wasn't reading to the standard i expected her to achieve i went to the school,i was told that english wasn't the first language for 75% of the school so they had to concentrate on this first,an issue made harder by the fact that the parents did not speak english at home! My answer was to move my children out of london and the result is the last of the 3 has just got amazing A'level results and the others did great! As a single mum from a white working class background who has always worked it bugs me that people label everyone the same. I was lucky i got my kids out,does nobody think it could be the education system and circumstance, its not always poor parenting! | |||
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"...... Having the right parents or chums will not make any difference as your success is judged on what you actually achieve and various key performance measures , not your heritage or who your friends are . Are you sure about that? “Middle-class children benefit from a "glass floor" protecting them from slipping down the social scale in Britain, a report has said. The Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission said better-off families managed to provide educational and social advantages to stop their slide. It found less able, richer children were 35% more likely to become high earners than brighter, poorer peers.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33655791 So back to my starting point, it's about class. It usually is. Usually? It's a rare occasion when it isn't. I'd love to be able to argue with that, and not only for the sheer joy of being obstreperous. Sadly I can't. It's spot on. I once knew a fabulous leader in his field, through work. When I asked him about his career and how he had got into that field his answer was simple: it had been the family business for the last 400+ years. The business name didn't match his until you looked back three mergers. He admitted he had been groomed to lead the firm but still argued anyone could achieve the same if they worked hard enough. Most of us don't have 400 years of connections though. . However he would still need considerable skills in order to achieve results . It does not matter how many connections you have , you are ultimately responsible for the performance of the businness. An inherited businness is no guarantee of success unless you also have all the relevant skills to run it . If you did not have these skills , it could be the road to ruin.. Oh, I forgot to mention, he ran one of those businesses that created the global financial crash.
That global financial crash in which nobody at the top lost their job. Which is, of course, nothing to do with family or connections.". Lots of people at the top during the so called global financial crash lost their jobs . What about Fred Goodwin as an example ?. The global financial crash was caused by consumers borrowing to much and being unable to repay it . The main losers were share holders and pension funds who have seen the value of their investments fall substantially . In most financial institutions you are expected to receive results . Fail to perform and you will be out of a job promptly .. | |||
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