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Quantum equation predicts universe has no begining

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Do you also believe that there never was a big bang instead the universe have always existed, or whats your theory?

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"Do you also believe that there never was a big bang instead the universe have always existed, or whats your theory?

Also ? Who says it had no beginning ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

big bang theory ftw

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 20/08/15 17:12:15]

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Do you also believe that there never was a big bang instead the universe have always existed, or whats your theory?

Also ? Who says it had no beginning ?"
Noone have, but most think it do have a beginning.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I watched a program on playboy tv called the big bang, was very interesting viewing

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Oh please don't start me on this. I had a conversation with my daughter about how anything came to exist in the first place. How did everything come to be and how can the Universe never end. It made me sweat with anxiety in the end.

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By *he horny kinkstersCouple over a year ago

North West

Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

They've already detected the echoes of the big bang and proven the theory.

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By *unky monkeyMan over a year ago

in the night garden

You do all realise we are contained in a marble inside some kids back pocket don't you?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all."
That's what I thought as well.

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By *igeiaWoman over a year ago

Bristol

The big bang makes the most logical sense to me but there is also a lot to be said for considering the Level II multiverse, the big bang/big crunch dichotomy and the theory of an oscillating universe (or universes). That's generally where my brain starts hurting though. I don't think the solid state theory holds any water though; bearing in mind that at a quantum level position doesn't exist.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I watched a program on playboy tv called the big bang, was very interesting viewing

Now that sounds interesting!

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By *nFairnessMan over a year ago

The Four Corners

bassic concepts are relatively simple to understand if you look at the fractality of this reality.

only have to look at a circle to see that everything exists and doesnt exist.

in a circle the start is wherever you make it. therefore the starting point is infinity and nothing all at the same time. just see time as one big circle where are you in time? everywhere? one point? i love these kinds of questions. nothing is right nothing is wrong. the point is what you make it.

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By *unky monkeyMan over a year ago

in the night garden

"bassic concepts are relatively simple to understand if you look at the fractality of this reality.

only have to look at a circle to see that everything exists and doesnt exist.

...and the fucking cat IS dead!

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By *lack_BoltMan over a year ago

oxford

I like the idea of the universe not having a beginning, it's the only thing that makes sense. The idea that we are experiencing this once in a life time event, dictated by natural forces, must be flawed. If nature allows something to happen, it will happen more than once, no matter how infrequently, and possibly in different parts of the universe.

I think we are still at the frontiers of finding the "truth" about the universe, but the biggest obstacles are our own limited view, and experience of life on this planet. The maths will give the answer but trying to interpret this information is the biggest challenge.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The big bang makes the most logical sense to me but there is also a lot to be said for considering the Level II multiverse, the big bang/big crunch dichotomy and the theory of an oscillating universe (or universes). That's generally where my brain starts hurting though. I don't think the solid state theory holds any water though; bearing in mind that at a quantum level position doesn't exist."

what.......?

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"bassic concepts are relatively simple to understand if you look at the fractality of this reality.

only have to look at a circle to see that everything exists and doesnt exist.

...and the fucking cat IS dead!"

That's it! I'm calling the RSPCA.

Bloody quantum cat haters.

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By *ildt123Man over a year ago

Huddersfield

What!!! You mean all this wasn't built in six days by a beardy bloke in the sky!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If we ever work out what the universe is and what it is for it will automatically explode and be replaced by something more mindbogglingly incomprehensible

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

i think aliens didded it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I watched a program on playboy tv called the big bang, was very interesting viewing

Now that sounds interesting!

It was trust me

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Do you also believe that there never was a big bang instead the universe have always existed, or whats your theory?

"
i had a big bang last night

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"bassic concepts are relatively simple to understand if you look at the fractality of this reality.

only have to look at a circle to see that everything exists and doesnt exist.

...and the fucking cat IS dead!

That's it! I'm calling the RSPCA.

Bloody quantum cat haters."

In doubt Schrodinger is afraid of the RSPCA

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"bassic concepts are relatively simple to understand if you look at the fractality of this reality.

only have to look at a circle to see that everything exists and doesnt exist.

Where did the particles of matter come from? The very first ones. I hate thinking about that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What!!! You mean all this wasn't built in six days by a beardy bloke in the sky!!! "

Was a woman

and no not a bearded one .

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"You do all realise we are contained in a marble inside some kids back pocket don't you?"

It's an olly in a kangaroo's pouch. You religious nutters bang on about the marble without ever having met this kid.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

String

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By *alandNitaCouple over a year ago

Scunthorpe

I can't grasp infinity at all."

How about infinity squared..... plus infinity?

That's just daft

Cal

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Aliens,they mess with everthing

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

The Earth is still flat, right?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all."

what dont you understand about infinity?

there are 2 kinds - potential infinity (like dividing the space between 2 points -infinitesimally)

and actual infinity (say, numbers where there is no biggest number, cos you can always +1).

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By *alandNitaCouple over a year ago

Scunthorpe

"What!!! You mean all this wasn't built in six days by a beardy bloke in the sky!!!

Was a woman

and no not a bearded one . "

Ah... A clean shaven woman, she'd fit in well here

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"bassic concepts are relatively simple to understand if you look at the fractality of this reality.

only have to look at a circle to see that everything exists and doesnt exist.

Where did the particles of matter come from? The very first ones. I hate thinking about that. "

Gases and elements crushed by massive gravitational forces.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"bassic concepts are relatively simple to understand if you look at the fractality of this reality.

only have to look at a circle to see that everything exists and doesnt exist.

...and the fucking cat IS dead!"

How do you know ? Did Frodo really put one in the box ?

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By *igeiaWoman over a year ago

Bristol

String"

Don't forget the branes...

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all.

what dont you understand about infinity?

there are 2 kinds - potential infinity (like dividing the space between 2 points -infinitesimally)

and actual infinity (say, numbers where there is no biggest number, cos you can always +1).

I can understand that. I can't grasp the concept of time stretching back infinitely and forward infinitely. I can understand what it means but I can't imagine it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all.

what dont you understand about infinity?

there are 2 kinds - potential infinity (like dividing the space between 2 points -infinitesimally)

and actual infinity (say, numbers where there is no biggest number, cos you can always +1).

I can understand that. I can't grasp the concept of time stretching back infinitely and forward infinitely. I can understand what it means but I can't imagine it."

It only stretches back around 14 billion years...

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all.

what dont you understand about infinity?

there are 2 kinds - potential infinity (like dividing the space between 2 points -infinitesimally)

and actual infinity (say, numbers where there is no biggest number, cos you can always +1).

I can understand that. I can't grasp the concept of time stretching back infinitely and forward infinitely. I can understand what it means but I can't imagine it.

It only stretches back around 14 billion years..."

It isn't infinite then

as I understand it anyway. My brain really hurts now.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all.

what dont you understand about infinity?

there are 2 kinds - potential infinity (like dividing the space between 2 points -infinitesimally)

and actual infinity (say, numbers where there is no biggest number, cos you can always +1).

I can understand that. I can't grasp the concept of time stretching back infinitely and forward infinitely. I can understand what it means but I can't imagine it."

That's perfectly understandable. As a child it's hard to imagine to the length of time to being an adult - 30 is very old! Maybe at the point of death we all suddenly know infinity.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all.

what dont you understand about infinity?

there are 2 kinds - potential infinity (like dividing the space between 2 points -infinitesimally)

and actual infinity (say, numbers where there is no biggest number, cos you can always +1).

I can understand that. I can't grasp the concept of time stretching back infinitely and forward infinitely. I can understand what it means but I can't imagine it.

That's perfectly understandable. As a child it's hard to imagine to the length of time to being an adult - 30 is very old! Maybe at the point of death we all suddenly know infinity.

May be we do but I can live without knowing if that's what's required

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all.

what dont you understand about infinity?

there are 2 kinds - potential infinity (like dividing the space between 2 points -infinitesimally)

and actual infinity (say, numbers where there is no biggest number, cos you can always +1).

I can understand that. I can't grasp the concept of time stretching back infinitely and forward infinitely. I can understand what it means but I can't imagine it."

Have you heard of a Möbius strip?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Isn't the point of origin the point of singularity?

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all.

what dont you understand about infinity?

there are 2 kinds - potential infinity (like dividing the space between 2 points -infinitesimally)

and actual infinity (say, numbers where there is no biggest number, cos you can always +1).

I can understand that. I can't grasp the concept of time stretching back infinitely and forward infinitely. I can understand what it means but I can't imagine it.

Have you heard of a Möbius strip?"

No, do tell

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all.

what dont you understand about infinity?

there are 2 kinds - potential infinity (like dividing the space between 2 points -infinitesimally)

and actual infinity (say, numbers where there is no biggest number, cos you can always +1).

I can understand that. I can't grasp the concept of time stretching back infinitely and forward infinitely. I can understand what it means but I can't imagine it.

Have you heard of a Möbius strip?

No, do tell

It may interest you in a similar way as all this...

If you take a strip of paper and stick the ends together, you get a loop. It has two surfaces.

If before you stick the ends together you give one end a half twist, you get a loop with only one surface. You can put a pen on it and draw all the way round, meeting up with the line where you started. Effectively one infinite surface from something which had two previously.

The wiki page is quite detailed.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple over a year ago

hereford

That's perfectly understandable. As a child it's hard to imagine to the length of time to being an adult - 30 is very old! Maybe at the point of death we all suddenly know infinity.

Death is infinity isn't it? So that would suggest we all get to experience infinity. Except that in death our consciousness ceases to exist so we cannot experience infinity in death. However, science says that nothing leaves the planet, something that exists will always exist if only in a converted state. On that basis it would imply that if we accept that consciousness doesn't exist after death then it could really have existed in the first place.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

...and the fucking cat IS dead!"

shouldn't have looked, then !

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That's perfectly understandable. As a child it's hard to imagine to the length of time to being an adult - 30 is very old! Maybe at the point of death we all suddenly know infinity.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not many forums a thread about quantum equations can sit comfortably next to a thread about perfect boobies, haha well played all

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Do you also believe that there never was a big bang instead the universe have always existed, or whats your theory?

I believe time is circular and we will start at the beginning once we reach the end.

Like a mobius strip

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That's perfectly understandable. As a child it's hard to imagine to the length of time to being an adult - 30 is very old! Maybe at the point of death we all suddenly know infinity.

interesting argument- guess the problem lies in the premise that nothing leaves the planet? eg, space shuttles could leave, then run out of gas. so its clearly physically + logically possible.

as for consciousness, not existing- see descartes.

cognito, ergo sum.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple over a year ago

hereford

The Möbius strip isn't as magic as it seems as it hasn't really caused a surface to cease to exist.

Take two strips of paper and ignoring the 4 edges we might say the two strips have two surfaces each.

Now stick one end of a strip to the end of the other strip and like 'magic' we only have two surfaces and the other two have ceased to exist.

Now make a Möbius strip out of that and like magic we've made 3 surfaces cease to exist

Repeat the process with 100 strips and make 99 surfaces cease to exist.

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"Do you also believe that there never was a big bang instead the universe have always existed, or whats your theory?

I certainly NOT believe this although I reason it is a plausible possibility with data to substantiate it xx

The big bang can be misleading it is perfectly plausible that time is infinite, the cosmos is infinite containing a vast number of local bubble like expansions

It is well evidenced that the tiny part we can see and detect ,which we term the universe was closer together yesterday and the theory that time gone by the matter was closer together a is logical , evidenced and plausible .whether it was ever a singularity I am uncertain that humans will ever know

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I can't grasp infinity at all.

How about infinity squared..... plus infinity?

That's just daft

Cal"

No, it isn't, but the man who first described the different sets of infinity (Cantor) unsurprisingly went mad!

As for the cat, as everyone knows when they opened the box, it wasn't there (See Dirk Gently)

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By *uzy444Woman over a year ago

in the suffolk countryside

infinity exists..cosmos became, universe evolved and you are here in a moment as a speck of awareness perceiving it all as whatever the hell you want...

creative limitless playground..awesome to be alive...simplez

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Is 'time' not just something that we, as human beings, have created??

Isn't it just something that we live our existence by? Something that governs our everyday?

But would it exist with us??

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

The infinity concept I have trouble with is ,

The cosmos is infinite

Matter is infinite

There is space between the matter

Thus in volume there is less matter than space

Yet if every x of space contains some matter neither can be deemed finite

Plus one is a bitch too

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

One of my favourite authors on the subject wrote.. " The cosmos is all that was, or is, or ever will be". To an extent I agree but I believe we occupy the current incarnation of this "cosmos" in our current space and time and I believe that there have been and will continue to be an innumerable incarnations of this cosmos.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I can't grasp infinity at all.

How about infinity squared..... plus infinity?

That's just daft

Cal

No, it isn't, but the man who first described the different sets of infinity (Cantor) unsurprisingly went mad!

As for the cat, as everyone knows when they opened the box, it wasn't there (See Dirk Gently)

Never heard of cantor, but if you say sets, he must've been a mathematician?

But was Aristotle who first punted idea of actual and potential infinities.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

In Mr Wheelers muti-verse every thing can and does happen. Im there with a 12 inch todger except women havent been invented.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it."

Not true. The Big Bang almost certainly occurred within a volume of space-time.

If you accept that the red shift observed in distant galaxies means the universe is expanding then you can use the maths of general relativity to rewind the universe back in time. However, no scientists have yet been able to rewind time to the zero point. Thus, as things stand, all of the Big Bang theory comes after the moment of creation, when t equals a positive number.

As the maths breaks down before this most scientists choose to admit this they can't know what happened. This brick wall of knowledge is conveniently inferred as being the beginning of everything and that the Big Bang did not occur within a volume. However, the Big Bang obviously did occur within a volume of space-time... as it makes much more sense than inventing, just because the maths breaks down, some loony idea that nothing existed prior to it

This is a common mistake that people make when talking about the Big Bang. Big Bang theory is a total distraction which only deals with our small limited observable universe. The actual universe, the cosmos, is infinite and eternal. You'd have thought cosmologists would've wanted to clear that up rather than lead a bunch of people into thinking our universe is finite and had a beginning. It didn't

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

This universe being a mere 13 billion years old cannot be described as eternal. And though its expanion and heat death may take up quite a bit of space there us no way this could ever be described as infinite.

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By *ngieandMrManCouple over a year ago

hereford

"This universe being a mere 13 billion years old cannot be described as eternal. And though its expanion and heat death may take up quite a bit of space there us no way this could ever be described as infinite."

OK.. so now see if you can explain that to my wife in respect of my credit card

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

Not true. The Big Bang almost certainly occurred within a volume of space-time.

Always enjoy reading your posts mp, so in essence what you're saying is general relativity does a super job - but fails coz it can't explain/ prove the whole theory .

Just like theory of evolution , still looking for missing link.

One theory addresses both of these flaws in its own idea.

Ya knows the one don't you

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

Not true. The Big Bang almost certainly occurred within a volume of space-time.

"What he said "

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My take on it is that there was no big bang, the universe has always been here and always will be as it is infinite/eternal. Time is an illusion of this dimension, whereas consciousness is the universe's way of observing/experiencing itself.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I find the thought that everything is created from an infinitesimal point very amusing tbh, one day, scientists will reflect on the Big Bang theory and think......wtf, what wankers we were. Anyhow, everyone knows that in reality, the universe sits on the back of a giant tortoise encircled by an immense serpent.....or it that a herd of llamas.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I believe in string theory, and the universe does have a beginning, thats why its moving apart.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"bassic concepts are relatively simple to understand if you look at the fractality of this reality.

only have to look at a circle to see that everything exists and doesnt exist.

Where did the particles of matter come from? The very first ones. I hate thinking about that.

Gases and elements crushed by massive gravitational forces."

Where did the gases and elements come from?

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

All I know is how little I really know.

~ Socrates

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By *oachman 9CoolMan over a year ago

derby

"Aliens,they mess with everthing"
Well I can never say I did,nt believe in them I just had a open mind, but haveing previously witnessed Something in the night sky I,ve got even More of a open mind on such things now I can only explain what I saw and to have The chance of that was marvelous..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Always enjoy reading your posts mp, so in essence what you're saying is general relativity does a super job - but fails coz it can't explain/ prove the whole theory .

Just like theory of evolution , still looking for missing link.

One theory addresses both of these flaws in its own idea.

Ya knows the one don't you "

Thanks for noticing Nohurry

... and I'm a theist so you don't need to go banging on that door too loudly for me to know what you're on about.

Having said that, I am entirely comfortable with the science of today, evolution theory, general relativity, Big Bang, etc. Atheists seem to think they weigh in against a god but I don't see it that way. However, even though I'm comfortable with them, that doesn't mean I think they're right. At the point of the Big Bang, for example, the universe had infinite mass which, theoretically, would mean that rather than explode it should've imploded right back out of existence again. The current most popular way round this, inflation theory, is so nuts that some pretty big names, including one of the guys who thought it up, are starting to distance themselves from it. So I'd say Big Bang thinking is far from finalised. It wouldn't surprise me if red shift ended up being something completely different and that, therefore, the universe wasn't even expanding at all lol

General relativity works great for what it says on the tin i.e. a theory of relativity i.e. the relation between things. The maths breaks down when there's no longer anything to relate to anything else. This is what happens in the early moments of the Big Bang when everything was just one little lump. So it doesn't "fail" because it's not even trying to explain stuff outside its own model i.e. our observable universe ... it's myopically about our little patch of space-time and that's it. Or at least that's it for now.

As for evolution theory... don't get me started lol

It's certainly a better theory than the previous ones. But its got some pretty big problems with it imo. My friends very patiently listen through each of my new pet theories about what's wrong with it lol

However, the great thing about science is that these holes are bubbling up to the surface now. The theory has gone through some pretty big changes over the last few decades. There's much more acceptance now that nature "mysteriously" errs towards certain conclusions, rather than randomly happens upon them. Of course a lot of scientists are in denial about what this means. But you and I know... right

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Always enjoy reading your posts mp, so in essence what you're saying is general relativity does a super job - but fails coz it can't explain/ prove the whole theory .

Just like theory of evolution , still looking for missing link.

One theory addresses both of these flaws in its own idea.

Ya knows the one don't you

Thanks for noticing Nohurry

... and I'm a theist so you don't need to go banging on that door too loudly for me to know what you're on about.

As for evolution theory... don't get me started lol

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on evolution and the holes you're alluding to. Just for my own curiosity.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

I believe it would have existed, potentially just in a different form. But I am no quantum physics etc specialist.

I thought the evidence was that the big bang appeared to have left its mark, with a timelined record.

Where did you get your info from Shag?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it."

My brain just imploded

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

...and the fucking cat IS dead!"

Of course it's dead!

The point is - the only way that you can prove that it's dead is by killing it yourself...

... and until you do, it's still alive in your existence, even though it's dead in the cat's existence....!

Proving that two opposite truths can co-exist....

Simples....!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

My brain just imploded"

Time and Space are different expressions of the same thing...

Before the Big Bang, everything existed in a Singularity, at the same place - where there was no "Space" - therefore no "Time".

Space only began to exist as the Universe began to expand into it... and so Time also began then..

So - you can have a "Before" the Big Bang - but you can't have any "Time" before the Big Bang because Time didn't exist...

It really is quite easy to understand........

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"Always enjoy reading your posts mp, so in essence what you're saying is general relativity does a super job - but fails coz it can't explain/ prove the whole theory .

Just like theory of evolution , still looking for missing link.

One theory addresses both of these flaws in its own idea.

Ya knows the one don't you

Thanks for noticing Nohurry

... and I'm a theist so you don't need to go banging on that door too loudly for me to know what you're on about.

As for evolution theory... don't get me started lol

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on evolution and the holes you're alluding to. Just for my own curiosity. "

I to would love to hear about the "certain conclusions" which Aparantly science is in denial about .

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"They've already detected the echoes of the big bang and proven the theory."

It is not possible to prove. We can find evidence which supports it but the truth could still lie elsewhere. There is no way to know for sure.

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

My brain just imploded

Time and Space are different expressions of the same thing...

Before the Big Bang, everything existed in a Singularity, at the same place - where there was no "Space" - therefore no "Time".

Space only began to exist as the Universe began to expand into it... and so Time also began then..

So - you can have a "Before" the Big Bang - but you can't have any "Time" before the Big Bang because Time didn't exist...

It really is quite easy to understand........

If it helps, time can only exist where there is change of some nature. If nothing changes time cannot exist as there is nothing relative to measure it against.

Therefore if the universe did start as only a singularity and nothing else was there, until that singularity started to change there could be no time.

As for when the universe reaches a state of universal entropy =1 then time will stop too as everything will be homogeneous and there will be no energy left to create change and thus time will stop.

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By *oodmessMan over a year ago

yumsville

I thought there was a recent study showing that the universe had lower energy levels as a comparison to earlier years. As a result meaning it is and will one day run out of energy. As I remember it was in support of the bang theory as, that energy must have originated from somewhere and its trajectory away from it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

And all this just goes to show what a lot of bright-eyed smarty-pants we are...!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ill just make the coffee shall I

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"How can it predict something that never happened?

This sort of thing makes my brain hurt

I can't grasp infinity at all.

what dont you understand about infinity?

there are 2 kinds - potential infinity (like dividing the space between 2 points -infinitesimally)

and actual infinity (say, numbers where there is no biggest number, cos you can always +1).

I can understand that. I can't grasp the concept of time stretching back infinitely and forward infinitely. I can understand what it means but I can't imagine it.

Have you heard of a Möbius strip?

No, do tell

It may interest you in a similar way as all this...

If you take a strip of paper and stick the ends together, you get a loop. It has two surfaces.

The wiki page is quite detailed."

These are used on productions lines a lot, you get a more even wear out if a cloth/belt etc.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"They've already detected the echoes of the big bang and proven the theory."
.

Turn on your tv or radio and that fuzzy white noise is background radiation probably left over from the big bang. However it doesn't prove it, you can't really prove anything, what they actually do is try to disprove the theory!, the harder you find to disprove it, the more the likelihood that the theory is right, or at least your best guess on current understandings!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Always enjoy reading your posts mp, so in essence what you're saying is general relativity does a super job - but fails coz it can't explain/ prove the whole theory .

Just like theory of evolution , still looking for missing link.

One theory addresses both of these flaws in its own idea.

Ya knows the one don't you

Thanks for noticing Nohurry

... and I'm a theist so you don't need to go banging on that door too loudly for me to know what you're on about.

As for evolution theory... don't get me started lol

"
.

I once read a book by a guy I can't remember along time ago about why modern humans are intelligent!, his theory was that something had intervened around 30,000 years ago and genetically twisted two chromosomes and these particular two were a human trait only and that's what his premise was for why were intelligent, he also threw some differences in bone structure and skulls into the mix, I've no idea how true any of his science was but it was a very good yarn

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

My brain just imploded

Time and Space are different expressions of the same thing...

Before the Big Bang, everything existed in a Singularity, at the same place - where there was no "Space" - therefore no "Time".

Space only began to exist as the Universe began to expand into it... and so Time also began then..

So - you can have a "Before" the Big Bang - but you can't have any "Time" before the Big Bang because Time didn't exist...

It really is quite easy to understand........

If it helps, time can only exist where there is change of some nature. If nothing changes time cannot exist as there is nothing relative to measure it against.

Therefore if the universe did start as only a singularity and nothing else was there, until that singularity started to change there could be no time.

As for when the universe reaches a state of universal entropy =1 then time will stop too as everything will be homogeneous and there will be no energy left to create change and thus time will stop. "

Network rail demonstrates this pretty much every day of the week.

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

My brain just imploded

Time and Space are different expressions of the same thing...

Before the Big Bang, everything existed in a Singularity, at the same place - where there was no "Space" - therefore no "Time".

Space only began to exist as the Universe began to expand into it... and so Time also began then..

So - you can have a "Before" the Big Bang - but you can't have any "Time" before the Big Bang because Time didn't exist...

It really is quite easy to understand........

If it helps, time can only exist where there is change of some nature. If nothing changes time cannot exist as there is nothing relative to measure it against.

Therefore if the universe did start as only a singularity and nothing else was there, until that singularity started to change there could be no time.

As for when the universe reaches a state of universal entropy =1 then time will stop too as everything will be homogeneous and there will be no energy left to create change and thus time will stop.

Network rail demonstrates this pretty much every day of the week."

Proof if ever there was such.

Network Rail are the instigators of the end of time.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

My brain just imploded

Time and Space are different expressions of the same thing...

Before the Big Bang, everything existed in a Singularity, at the same place - where there was no "Space" - therefore no "Time".

Space only began to exist as the Universe began to expand into it... and so Time also began then..

So - you can have a "Before" the Big Bang - but you can't have any "Time" before the Big Bang because Time didn't exist...

It really is quite easy to understand........

lol

Someone hasn't read the whole thread

btw the co-author of the singularity theory, Stephen Hawking, has really been trying his best to make it clear that he no longer believes it was a singularity but still people persist on imagining it was.

The Big Bang is a qwerk of general relativity mathematical logic. If you trace two points back in time to the point where they become one point you reach some kind of "event horizon", for want of a better expression. What's going on with all the other points around it is external to the entire equasion, therefore the Big Bang only really deals with a small little patch of space-time that emerged several billion years ago... or so the theory states.

Recent observations do support it... but no single prediction based on Big Bang theory has played out in observations. Instead they need to conjecture that the universe is made up of something like 95% unseen dark stuff in order to correct for the theory's mistakes. There are a small set of cosmologists that feel these are just ways of evading the theory's falsification. And I can see their point

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on evolution and the holes you're alluding to. Just for my own curiosity. "

Evolution theory needs to explain how things can have come about just based upon the random interaction of species in an environment. Recent studies are starting to unveil that there are only so many formulations of DNA which are viable. Thus, rather than mutating into a random set of weird creatures which either suceed or fail, life mutates into certain distinct grooves. Why do these grooves exist? We should neither throw our hands up and say "because they do" or "because a god made them"... we should be more curious than that. But to me it does imply design... this, in answer to Taoists question, is the "obvious conclusion" which scientists are currently allergic to admitting.

As for the problems of evolution theory, you know a theory has issues when examples of things which don't quite work with it mount up into a big enough pile. There are ways people try getting around them. But occam's razor, for me, suggests that the simpler conclusion is that the theory is wrong. This doesn't mean that we should give up on science and rush out to buy a copy of the Bible... it just means the theory is wrong and that future science will "evolve" to determine a better theory.

I don't really want to go into particulars as I'm currently writing a book which will bring all my problems with it together. Plus, without listing all of the problems and thoroughly detailing why they are so perplexing, I would only give off the illusion of having a one trick pony argument that could be easily dismissed as "just because we haven't solved it yet.. it doesn't mean we won't" kinds of missives. Sorry if that wasn't what you wanted to hear... but it is kinda true

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

My brain just imploded

Time and Space are different expressions of the same thing...

Before the Big Bang, everything existed in a Singularity, at the same place - where there was no "Space" - therefore no "Time".

Space only began to exist as the Universe began to expand into it... and so Time also began then..

So - you can have a "Before" the Big Bang - but you can't have any "Time" before the Big Bang because Time didn't exist...

It really is quite easy to understand........

lol

Someone hasn't read the whole thread

A lot of that "dark material" has been found. Not all of it. Yet.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A lot of that "dark material" has been found. Not all of it. Yet. "

NONE of it has been found yet. That is what CERN is trying to do at the moment

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"A lot of that "dark material" has been found. Not all of it. Yet.

NONE of it has been found yet. That is what CERN is trying to do at the moment

Well true in as far as much as when it gets found it ceases being dark.

A bit like god. As soon as we figure out what actually causes something it ceases being an act of God.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A lot of that "dark material" has been found. Not all of it. Yet.

NONE of it has been found yet. That is what CERN is trying to do at the moment

Well true in as far as much as when it gets found it ceases being dark.

A bit like god. As soon as we figure out what actually causes something it ceases being an act of God. "

If I claim to be able to kick a ball in the goal but, when I kick it, I miss. The most obvious solution is that I'm a crap footballer. If, however, I hypothesise that there are various unseen forces at play on the pitch, ghosts of old players, and that these are interferring with the ball's movement.... well.. then I can kick the ball again... and whern it misses again I can exclaim... "see!! the ghosts moved it". This is a good analogy for where we're at with darm matter and dark energy at the mo. They explain why things don't happen the way they should and the only evidence for them is that things don't happen the way they should. It's kind of a circular argument

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"A lot of that "dark material" has been found. Not all of it. Yet.

NONE of it has been found yet. That is what CERN is trying to do at the moment

Well true in as far as much as when it gets found it ceases being dark.

A bit like god. As soon as we figure out what actually causes something it ceases being an act of God.

Basically looking at the evidence we have it is the best solution we can hypothesise currently according to many. However where scientists differ to other people who claim to have all the answers is that when or if something comes along which makes more sense or evidence appears suggesting that a theory is wrong then scientists move on and start to investigate other possibilities.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A lot of that "dark material" has been found. Not all of it. Yet.

NONE of it has been found yet. That is what CERN is trying to do at the moment

Well true in as far as much as when it gets found it ceases being dark.

A bit like god. As soon as we figure out what actually causes something it ceases being an act of God.

yes... and one of those possibilities is the existence of a god... after all, if you claim to know otherwise, then you are being one of those same people that professes to "have all the answers"

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A lot of that "dark material" has been found. Not all of it. Yet.

NONE of it has been found yet. That is what CERN is trying to do at the moment

Well true in as far as much as when it gets found it ceases being dark.

A bit like god. As soon as we figure out what actually causes something it ceases being an act of God.

yes... and one of those possibilities is the existence of a god... after all, if you claim to know otherwise, then you are being one of those same people that professes to "have all the answers"

Exactly, we won't tolerate your intolerance of other ideas

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You do all realise we are contained in a marble inside some kids back pocket don't you?"

And he lives on a planet that is on a pinhead antenae of an ant like being living somewhere much like my back garden

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

All I know is I should be on Uranus and not here.

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By *lashheartMan over a year ago

shrewsbury

My head hurts. Can someone say something about sex so the blood goes somewhere else ...

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By *ordonBennettMan over a year ago

dover

"Do you also believe that there never was a big bang instead the universe have always existed, or whats your theory?

Also ? Who says it had no beginning ?"

Sheldon Cooper

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"A lot of that "dark material" has been found. Not all of it. Yet.

NONE of it has been found yet. That is what CERN is trying to do at the moment

Well true in as far as much as when it gets found it ceases being dark.

A bit like god. As soon as we figure out what actually causes something it ceases being an act of God.

yes... and one of those possibilities is the existence of a god... after all, if you claim to know otherwise, then you are being one of those same people that professes to "have all the answers"

It has not been disproved. However to my knowledge there is no unbiased, peer reviewed evidence with replicatable results which cannot be better explained using other theories. Therefore personally I am led to the conclusion that for now I shall not consider a god to be around.

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on evolution and the holes you're alluding to. Just for my own curiosity.

You should be bright enough not to confuse randomness with natural selection

School boy error

I understand there are a fair number of us that do not believe a singularity happened

As there is no absolute definition for the word god suggesting the use of the word as a possible truth is rather dishonest

There vast number of articulated god concepts invented by humans to suggest they share equal statistical plausibility is mathematically ridiculous

Some concepts contain enough text that they can clearly be illustrated to be fabricated without a chance of possibility let alone statistical plausibility

Some are so vague that would equate to me saying ,something beyond our knowledge exists .well I know something exists beyond our knowledge in fact I think the plausibility of millions of things existing which we currently have no idea about is nigh on inevitable

I am aware of a fair number of cosmological concepts, I don't believe any .I reason that a number of them are plausible and a few as unlikely

I reason that none even if plausible and on the right track are the complete picture and would expect a vast number of revisions

To date out of the thousands of differing god concepts that have been articulated to me I have been unable to reason that many are even possible let alone give a rating of plausibility x

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

[Removed by poster at 21/08/15 19:38:35]

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"A lot of that "dark material" has been found. Not all of it. Yet.

NONE of it has been found yet. That is what CERN is trying to do at the moment

Well true in as far as much as when it gets found it ceases being dark.

A bit like god. As soon as we figure out what actually causes something it ceases being an act of God.

Totally agree it's not much better than theist justifications for their wild beliefs (most of them must be factually wild as even if one was true the others cannot be )

It's not the cosmologists so much I blame but the way the media conveys their work to the public they falsely lead the mainly non scientific public to think an insight or a new concept is a near universally accepted fact (see daily hate mail and the publics confusion over the harm/good red wine does) Where we who aim not to believe or disbelieve but to understand the concepts know it's all a work in progress

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"They've already detected the echoes of the big bang and proven the theory."

You mean postulated a theory from this and from Hubble's measurements of red shift.

There are other explanations.

Every star in every Galaxy gives out microwave radiation amongs others....so a "background" of microwave radiation is to be expected.

We can (I have) measure rotational red shift in our own Galaxy..... All planets spin. All planets rotate/orbit around stars. All galaxies rotate....so why not the whole universe....this would produce observable red shift.

The jury is still out!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You should be bright enough not to confuse randomness with natural selection

School boy error"

True... slap on the wrist

I was merely trying to find the words to explain that the system itself shouldn't have an inbuilt purpose as it's now perplexingly apparent it does.

"As there is no absolute definition for the word god suggesting the use of the word as a possible truth is rather dishonest

There vast number of articulated god concepts invented by humans to suggest they share equal statistical plausibility is mathematically ridiculous"

I think we can safely reduce the concept to the basic question... do you think a living Being is responsible for manifesting everything that you see around you? Quite straight forward really. Doesn't need any more bells and whistles adding to it and if you do believe such a thing then you're clearly a theist and if you don't then you're not... so it really is as simple as that. Complaining about the different ways the same concept has been expressed is what I'd call dishonest

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Beginning and end are concepts from the puny human mind, we cannot comprehend the immeasurable. It's not about opinions or theories, it's about what actually is, and how can our minds see that, if we cannot even find a solution to end war, hunger, poverty etc?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"They've already detected the echoes of the big bang and proven the theory.

You mean postulated a theory from this and from Hubble's measurements of red shift.

There are other explanations.

Every star in every Galaxy gives out microwave radiation amongs others....so a "background" of microwave radiation is to be expected.

The jury is still out!"

On a similar note... someone, can't remember who off the top of my head, figured out what the ambient temperature of space would be based on starlight i.e. the idea that the light of the stars glow alone must warm the empty space near it even if marginally. It turns out that these minimal temprtatures fall exactly into the threshold of the background radiation. So are we looking at early evidence of the Big Bang... or are we looking at the temperature of empty space due to starlight? Not too sure on the answer... but its a beautiful question

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"You should be bright enough not to confuse randomness with natural selection

School boy error

True... slap on the wrist

I was merely trying to find the words to explain that the system itself shouldn't have an inbuilt purpose as it's now perplexingly apparent it does.

As there is no absolute definition for the word god suggesting the use of the word as a possible truth is rather dishonest

There vast number of articulated god concepts invented by humans to suggest they share equal statistical plausibility is mathematically ridiculous

Lol living being gives us little

There is debate whether we define a virus as living

Being ? Like a human being ?

So may I assume you are also giving sentience to this life form ? Attributes like thoughts imagination planning ? Or is your being an bacteria which itself can form amazing structures but has no concept of its actions or consequence

Of course I have little doubt other beings exist and indeed ,those evolved aliens could have devised our tiny petri dish (that I doubt)

But it seems you are leading towards a sentient, all powerful none evolved, creator that itself had no creation or evolution that pre existed before any other matter and some how made more matter ?

We know that vast clouds of energetic matter existed 10s of billions of years ago (use your telescope n maths)

Does your god sit outside the cloud magically manipulating it to a point it compresses into a nuclear fusion reaction knowing and orchestrating the spin so maybe one day life of any form can ever be formed ?

Or is your god a connection between every grain of nano partial which with then it's vast interconnected neuro structure it is self aware enough to make its own destiny and lead the destiny of everything else ,

So simple as what sorry ?

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By *ensualtouch15Man over a year ago

ashby de la zouch

"You should be bright enough not to confuse randomness with natural selection

School boy error

True... slap on the wrist

I was merely trying to find the words to explain that the system itself shouldn't have an inbuilt purpose as it's now perplexingly apparent it does.

As there is no absolute definition for the word god suggesting the use of the word as a possible truth is rather dishonest

There vast number of articulated god concepts invented by humans to suggest they share equal statistical plausibility is mathematically ridiculous

Lol living being gives us little

There is debate whether we define a virus as living

Being ? Like a human being ?

Of course I have little doubt other beings exist and indeed ,those evolved aliens could have devised our tiny petri dish (that I doubt)

But it seems you are leading towards a sentient, all powerful none evolved, creator that itself had no creation or evolution that pre existed before any other matter and some how made more matter ?

We know that vast clouds of energetic matter existed 10s of billions of years ago (use your telescope n maths)

So simple as what sorry ?"

Or perhaps the shape shifting vagueness of god concept is the only thing keeping the myths alive ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The one thing about intelligence that crosses every species is the desire to pass it on!

Because of that I couldn't rule out outside interference in human evolution, but there's way to much evidence to suggest anything but evolution and natural selection.

If and its a big if, we can manage to adapt as fast as our technology's evolution, there's a chance in 100-200 years we could do great things, but statiscally I'd air on the flip side

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Lol living being gives us little

There is debate whether we define a virus as living

Being ? Like a human being ?

You're misreading my use of "being". It doesn't refer to a creature. It refers to a self, ego, or consciousness... a spirit, as most theists call it. Check your dictionary... "being" does cover those two uses. Just so you know... theists NEVER mean it in the way you're reading it. That should save you some future confusion

Beyond that... who cares whether this thing is aware of what's going on or not... where it exists... what its favourite color is... or even whether its designed any shit or not? Does it exist? Did it create everything? If so then the theists win and the atheists lose. I mean you can't really deny that. It's not like you can legitimately say "oh THAT consciousness... the one who created everything... I thought you were talking about a different one"

Oh and before you ask me to give you an example of a disembodied spirit or consciousness... go take a look in the mirror

You are one, making good use of a wonderfully constructed vehicle by the look of things. And with that I think I've just made up the most bizarre chat up line on Fab lol

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By *uckandbunnyCouple over a year ago

In your bed

I'm betting on nobody knows.

Space is great you can make up all kinds of crap.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

Last weeks New Scientist mag discussed the evolution of conciousness and advantages it confers.

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By *uckandbunnyCouple over a year ago

In your bed

"Last weeks New Scientist mag discussed the evolution of conciousness and advantages it confers."

I dunno those monkeys look pretty happy.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

Unlike relativity quantum mechanics does not have an internal clock.

Whilst the spontaneous creation of the universe would seem energetic in comparison with virtual particles we only have one example to go on.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Last weeks New Scientist mag discussed the evolution of conciousness and advantages it confers."

Sounds like an excercise in explaining why it might have evolved whilst completely lacking any credible theory of how it evolved

Until we are able to replicate consciousness by bringing dead matter to life we are none the wiser as to whether living things generate their own consciousness or simply receive it as we do with all our other senses.

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"They've already detected the echoes of the big bang and proven the theory.

You mean postulated a theory from this and from Hubble's measurements of red shift.

There are other explanations.

Every star in every Galaxy gives out microwave radiation amongs others....so a "background" of microwave radiation is to be expected.

The jury is still out!

Temperature can only exist where matter exists. It is the vibrating of atoms. Thus where there are no atoms we have absolute zero.

Radiant heat from stars only has anot effect where there are atoms to be energised. Vacuum therefore = -273 degrees.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Temperature can only exist where matter exists. It is the vibrating of atoms. Thus where there are no atoms we have absolute zero.

Radiant heat from stars only has anot effect where there are atoms to be energised. Vacuum therefore = -273 degrees."

So I guess space isn't full of dark matter after all

From what I understood the distant universe is opaque... its one of those things they believe supports the Big Bang hypothesis, although I'm not so convinced. I think an infinite universe would have an opaque background too. There is a similar silly argument that if the universe was infinite it would be white not black, as everywhere you looked you'd see a star. That's just half-baked logic imo.

Thanks for stirring the pot though... always interesting to have stuff questioned

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"Temperature can only exist where matter exists. It is the vibrating of atoms. Thus where there are no atoms we have absolute zero.

Radiant heat from stars only has anot effect where there are atoms to be energised. Vacuum therefore = -273 degrees.

So I guess space isn't full of dark matter after all

Thanks for stirring the pot though... always interesting to have stuff questioned

The vacuum which we measured to be at absolute zero included dark matter as we cannot detect it.

Thus a vacuum which we measured to exist at absolute zero also contains dark matter yet has no effect on the ability of a vacuum to store heat/energy.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Temperature can only exist where matter exists. It is the vibrating of atoms. Thus where there are no atoms we have absolute zero.

Radiant heat from stars only has anot effect where there are atoms to be energised. Vacuum therefore = -273 degrees.

So I guess space isn't full of dark matter after all

Thanks for stirring the pot though... always interesting to have stuff questioned

The vacuum which we measured to be at absolute zero included dark matter as we cannot detect it.

Thus a vacuum which we measured to exist at absolute zero also contains dark matter yet has no effect on the ability of a vacuum to store heat/energy. "

So are we talking about matter that doesn't contain atoms?

Next you'll be telling me that empty space has its own intrinsic energy

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"Temperature can only exist where matter exists. It is the vibrating of atoms. Thus where there are no atoms we have absolute zero.

Radiant heat from stars only has anot effect where there are atoms to be energised. Vacuum therefore = -273 degrees.

So I guess space isn't full of dark matter after all

Thanks for stirring the pot though... always interesting to have stuff questioned

The vacuum which we measured to be at absolute zero included dark matter as we cannot detect it.

Thus a vacuum which we measured to exist at absolute zero also contains dark matter yet has no effect on the ability of a vacuum to store heat/energy.

So are we talking about matter that doesn't contain atoms?

Next you'll be telling me that empty space has its own intrinsic energy

Putting a lot of words in my mouth there. I said neither of those. I simply said what we know. You fill the gaps with whatever suits you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So are we talking about matter that doesn't contain atoms?

Next you'll be telling me that empty space has its own intrinsic energy

Putting a lot of words in my mouth there. I said neither of those. I simply said what we know. You fill the gaps with whatever suits you."

lol my first remark is basically what you've said, not me. you say that heat needs atoms and space has no atoms, I say space is supposed to be full of dark matter, and you say this dark matter doesn't effect the heat... so that suggests dark matter has no atoms. If it does then you're original premise is scuppered. As you seem to not know whether space is filled with atoms or not I'd say your original premise is scuppered anyway lol

As for my second remark... I was making a joke about dark energy not my own ideas

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

No. I said the vacuum we can measure has a temperature of absolute zero.

Nothing more nothing less.

What we can measure contains all the stuff we cannot measure.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"No. I said the vacuum we can measure has a temperature of absolute zero.

Nothing more nothing less.

What we can measure contains all the stuff we cannot measure. "

Or does all the stuff we cant measure contain the stuff we can?

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"No. I said the vacuum we can measure has a temperature of absolute zero.

Nothing more nothing less.

What we can measure contains all the stuff we cannot measure.

Or does all the stuff we cant measure contain the stuff we can?

Impossible to tell.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

The temperature of the vacuume teaming as it is with virtual particles has long been a topic of interesting discussion.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Time was invented by the Swiss to sell watches.

Once you accept time is a sales pitch, everything becomes infinite...

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By *mmabluTV/TS over a year ago

upton wirral

We will never know wheather there is a beginning or an end.These so called clever people should apply themselves to more problems the human race faces.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The universe is just random chance, it has to be!

To argue that it's designed leads us to that awful place of a sadistic, barbaric, uncaring creator, a thing so perverse it's not worth thinking about in my honest opinion

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We will never know wheather there is a beginning or an end.These so called clever people should apply themselves to more problems the human race faces."

There is always a beginning and an end.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We will never know wheather there is a beginning or an end.These so called clever people should apply themselves to more problems the human race faces.

There is always a beginning and an end. "
.

Not necessarily so.

Circles don't

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Most of this thread is blather.

Well done to mpassion tho'

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

PArticularly interested in yr comments about dark matter/dark energy - that tricky missing 95.1% of the universe that's needed to make our current cosmological models work.

I'm having an argument with a mate atm about DM/DE.

Not that I pretend to understand this fully but my point is that current cosmological theory is hitting the buffers - we're almost back to Ptolemaic epicycles - ie we're trying to make what we see think with what we know.

Maybe, just maybe, we've misunderstood something *very* basic from the off.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"PArticularly interested in yr comments about dark matter/dark energy - that tricky missing 95.1% of the universe that's needed to make our current cosmological models work.

I'm having an argument with a mate atm about DM/DE.

Maybe, just maybe, we've misunderstood something *very* basic from the off. "

Meh - English pls...

* ie we're trying to make what we see fit with what we think we know.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

if it goes up the cum comes down, thats the quantum physics you need

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"if it goes up the cum comes down, thats the quantum physics you need"

*puts head in hands and weeps gently*

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"PArticularly interested in yr comments about dark matter/dark energy - that tricky missing 95.1% of the universe that's needed to make our current cosmological models work.

I'm having an argument with a mate atm about DM/DE.

Maybe, just maybe, we've misunderstood something *very* basic from the off. "

Hey thanks for giving me the thumbs up

I'm totally with you on the epicycles thing. I just love the fact that the entire Big Bang theory is predicated upon the idea that the increased red color of distant galaxies is due to the doppler effect of them moving away from us. I mean that's so flimsy. Plus, when they first came up with it the theory connected well with the idea that a Big Bang had happened... then only in the 80's or 90's, can't remember when, did they really sit down and measure the red shifts and discover that those galaxy's red shift was exponential, meaning that not only was the universe expanding but it was expanding ever faster... which totally messes with the whole Big Bang theory... and they needed to invent dark energy to explain that. Talk about a house of cards lol

Still... its our best explanation yet for how things happened... but then so was the book of Genesis when it was first published and look at what a bunch of crock that turned out to be lol

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

A lot of weasel words used to discredit stuff here with a clear pre-ordained idea of what the truth is.

Weird how those who spend years looking at the stuff have on theory and then some folks on a sex hookup site Internet forum are able to decide it is all rubbish and actually the truth is something else.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A lot of weasel words used to discredit stuff here with a clear pre-ordained idea of what the truth is.

lol sounds like someone is a sore loser

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Do you ever feel that we always over complicate things, and that's why we don't find answers, because the answer is so unbelievably simple, we cannot see it within the complications of our minds?

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

I fink symmetry is super, dont you?

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By *nFairnessMan over a year ago

The Four Corners

"Do you ever feel that we always over complicate things, and that's why we don't find answers, because the answer is so unbelievably simple, we cannot see it within the complications of our minds?"
couldnt have said it better myself :D we've been taught to think about what we see and to shape it into something rational. rationality is biased and therefore the things we see decisions we make etc etc are all biased in part thanks to our need to explain things. what ever happened to just seeing.

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By *ait88Man over a year ago

Plymouth

"They've already detected the echoes of the big bang and proven the theory."

So what's all this dark matter & dark

energy, then? And way didn't the anti-matter eliminate the matter?

The big bang theory is demonstrably WRONG.

The real facts are probably only discoverable in all the other diminutions of space-time.

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By *ait88Man over a year ago

Plymouth

...and the fucking cat IS dead!"

Or not.....

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By *ait88Man over a year ago

Plymouth

Where did the particles of matter come from? The very first ones. I hate thinking about that. "

Cooling energy

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Cyclic Universe Theory" suggests it has always existed; it will expand, contract, return to a singularity, explode, expand.....ad infinitum.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

Everyone here loves infinity (or should that be infidelity).

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By *ait88Man over a year ago

Plymouth

"To date out of the thousands of differing god concepts that have been articulated to me I have been unable to reason that many are even possible let alone give a rating of plausibility "

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Do you ever feel that we always over complicate things, and that's why we don't find answers, because the answer is so unbelievably simple, we cannot see it within the complications of our minds? couldnt have said it better myself :D we've been taught to think about what we see and to shape it into something rational. rationality is biased and therefore the things we see decisions we make etc etc are all biased in part thanks to our need to explain things. what ever happened to just seeing."

Is it about Seeing, as oppose to Knowing?

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By *ait88Man over a year ago

Plymouth

"So are we looking at early evidence of the Big Bang... or are we looking at the temperature of empty space due to starlight? Not too sure on the answer... but its a beautiful question

The background radiation is much greater than the sum of all stellar radiation. That's he reaon for ascribing it to the Big Bang. An American observatory recently claimed to have measured the background radiation, and had to withdraw their conclusion rather quickly when it was proved to be radiation from the Milky Way.

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By *ohnaronMan over a year ago

london

Was the American university re-running

COBE or something else? Since background radiation is omnidirectional how did they confuse a milky way source?

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By *ait88Man over a year ago

Plymouth

"Was the American university re-running

COBE or something else? Since background radiation is omnidirectional how did they confuse a milky way source?"

The observation and refutation were reported in Nature magazine way back, possibly in April. I forget the details; was just trying to show that the cosmic background radiation isn't "starshine".

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By *ait88Man over a year ago

Plymouth

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

My brain just imploded

Time and Space are different expressions of the same thing...

Before the Big Bang, everything existed in a Singularity, at the same place - where there was no "Space" - therefore no "Time".

Space only began to exist as the Universe began to expand into it... and so Time also began then..

So - you can have a "Before" the Big Bang - but you can't have any "Time" before the Big Bang because Time didn't exist...

It really is quite easy to understand........

Time is independent of space and matter. Our universe, that stared as a singularity IN SPACE, is now enormous, potato-shaped, and still IN SPACE. It isn’t in a bag, or contained by some sort of shell, and it has no sharply defined boundary. If you are in a spaceship travelling IN SPACE away from our universe, stars will gradually get fewer and further between. As will the hydrogen atoms, and all radiation. But you will continue to age, all radio-active materials on board will continue to decay, gold will continue degeneration into lead. Inside your ship or outside it. Eventually you will travel beyond the reach of all radiation from our universe. You will still be IN SPACE, getting older, and gold will still be decaying. Time will still pass. And it will continue to do so, even after the entropy of our universe IN SPACE = 1. Our universe exists in a space-time continuum. Like a leaf in a stream. The continuum continues regardless of the state of our tiny universe. Time and space are, as far as we know, infinite.

That’s the current theory. All cosmologists and CERN scientists are spending billions of dollars desperately trying to find evidence to support a better theory – so far without success.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Oh please don't start me on this. I had a conversation with my daughter about how anything came to exist in the first place. How did everything come to be and how can the Universe never end. It made me sweat with anxiety in the end."

It is really quite easy to understand and to explain to anyone older than about 6 or 7...

Get some soapy water and blow some bubbles. Then ask the person to show you where the surface of each bubble starts and ends. There is no start or end therefore that shows infinity in a finite space.

You can go from there to explaining that the inflationary state of the universe where everything sprung into being is like inflating the bubble and although everything in the universe is simultaneously at the edge (when we look out into space we look back in time because light is the universal constant) and in the centre (because everything in every direction is moving away at an accelerating pace the further away it is) the bubble that is the universe must be expanding and we do not inhabit the void surrounded by the bubble of space but she surface of the bubble.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it."

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It is really quite easy to understand and to explain to anyone older than about 6 or 7...

Get some soapy water and blow some bubbles. Then ask the person to show you where the surface of each bubble starts and ends. There is no start or end therefore that shows infinity in a finite space.

I'm sorry you lost me at the bubble blowing bit. Who did you say blew those bubbles?

lol it amuses me how some people flippantly declare that this is really easy to understand and then proceed to show they themselves misunderstand it by saying stuff like the Big Bang created time.... or in this case by proceeding to give such a baffling description of it that it clearly isn't easy to understand.

I hope I haven't given off the impression of being anti-Big Bang or of trying to argue against science. It's just that I'm more aware of what the theory actually is than many of those who have posted on here and I'm a theist who, according to atheists, is supposed to be a looney who doesn't know my science

In reference to your last paragraph, I think its more intitive to explain that the idea is that our universe is expanding equally in all directions. At any point in the universe it would look like it was expanding away from you. So its completely arbitrary to pick a point and call it the centre. Plus, according to the theory, every point was once in the centre, so every point can be legitimately thought of as being the centre. Probably doesn't help lol... but I'd say its a bit easier than that crazy bubble stuff dude

As for the whole time cone thing... perhaps someone can help me grasp this better. My understanding of it is this... the universe we see is not a volume... its a period of time. A good way of thinking about this is to reverse perspective. Normally the further things get from us the bigger they must be for us to see them. With space, what we see in the far distance, and surrounding us, is actually the inside of that tiny spec which was the Big Bang, according to the theory. This is why it's opaque.

Is that all bullshit or have I got it right??

Don't worry I'm not a crazed theist with a God agenda... I am open to hearing and comprehending what the science is actually saying. So I'd love to hear your opinions on that one

I'd hope someone could give me a better analogy of the time cone than a bubble though lol

Oh I get it!... no you're mistaken. The universe we see around us is not the outside of the bubble. That's the universe we can't see yet, a projected imaginary state of what the universe is like objectively at the moment. What we actually see is a time cone, with the universe getting smaller and smaller the further into the distance you look... until you get to the far distance where you're looking at the inside of the tiny spec of the Big Bang... at least that's what I... Oh ... I'm just gonna stop here lol

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

quantum brain creature:

our universe is one synapse firing off in some unspectacular creature, probably lasting a fraction of a moment(relatively)to that creature, to us..its eternity.Add more synapses(universes) and you have a big brain firing off a billiontrilliongazillion other universes.

I'd say the scale of consciousness and realities come from the smallest to the largest of anything. Those protozoa,despite being one celled organisms live on a plain of existence that we cant even fathom..if theres anything inside them that could observe us..we would be astronomical bodies to them.

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"Before the Big Bang there was nothing, not even time.

How long did that last then? Well both forever and less than a second obviously.

I don't see what's complicated about it.

My brain just imploded

Time and Space are different expressions of the same thing...

Before the Big Bang, everything existed in a Singularity, at the same place - where there was no "Space" - therefore no "Time".

Space only began to exist as the Universe began to expand into it... and so Time also began then..

So - you can have a "Before" the Big Bang - but you can't have any "Time" before the Big Bang because Time didn't exist...

It really is quite easy to understand........

That’s the current theory. All cosmologists and CERN scientists are spending billions of dollars desperately trying to find evidence to support a better theory – so far without success.

"
if you are there to observe it then entropy is not =1.

Your existence brings order and change and thus time exists.

Leaving the universe is impossible as you are part of it thus wherever you are the universe is also there.

Time would not stop if you did fly out of the universe on a space ship however when all matter in the universe becomes inert and uniform without any energy, including you and I and anyone else, then time will cease as there will be no change. Time only exists when there is something to measure.

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

It is really quite easy to understand and to explain to anyone older than about 6 or 7...

Get some soapy water and blow some bubbles. Then ask the person to show you where the surface of each bubble starts and ends. There is no start or end therefore that shows infinity in a finite space.

A bubble is not infinite. It is just that we cannot see the details. But if you zoomed in you could choose an arbitrary starting point and you would eventually arrive back there as you journeyed around that bubble. A sphere has not an infinite surface size. That simply cannot be. There would be no room for anything else.

It is true that infinity as a concept exists. However nothing tangible can be infinite or we would not have room for any other objects in existence.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Fact of the matter is,we're still only guessing about so many things:space,infinity,gods etc etc and it's going to be a long time until we get definitive answers if our planet carries on as it is.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Time only exists when there is something to measure."

Time only exists when there's someone to measure it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It is true that infinity as a concept exists. However nothing tangible can be infinite or we would not have room for any other objects in existence. "

That is unless space and time are infinite... which they are

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It is true that infinity as a concept exists. However nothing tangible can be infinite or we would not have room for any other objects in existence.

That is unless space and time are infinite... which they are

"
Which you prove using what ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It is true that infinity as a concept exists. However nothing tangible can be infinite or we would not have room for any other objects in existence.

That is unless space and time are infinite... which they are

Which you prove using what ? "

logic

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It is true that infinity as a concept exists. However nothing tangible can be infinite or we would not have room for any other objects in existence.

That is unless space and time are infinite... which they are

Which you prove using what ?

logic

Sorry I came across faceicous

My point being we measure so much by what we know now,yet there's so much we don't know....hence were merely guessing. It wasn't that long ago we were convinced our planet was flat...based on what we knew.

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By *rinking-in-laCouple over a year ago

Bristol

"It is true that infinity as a concept exists. However nothing tangible can be infinite or we would not have room for any other objects in existence.

That is unless space and time are infinite... which they are

"
which they may be.

We don't know for certain

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It is true that infinity as a concept exists. However nothing tangible can be infinite or we would not have room for any other objects in existence.

That is unless space and time are infinite... which they are

Which you prove using what ?

logic

Sorry I came across faceicous

Beyond knowing, seeing the immeasurable.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It is true that infinity as a concept exists. However nothing tangible can be infinite or we would not have room for any other objects in existence.

That is unless space and time are infinite... which they are

which they may be.

We don't know for certain"

Yes we do... or at least I do... perhaps I'm the only one to have figured it out... but there's a logical proof which works for me. It's really pretty obvious and utterly conclusive when you think about it. It's currently going in my uber book I'm writing so I'm a bit averse mentioning it.. just in case I really am the first person to have figured it out lol

I want my nobel prize lol

as if... But its pretty simple so you can probably figure it out for yourself

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Isn't it strange right.

This planet is how old? Millions of years.

But in the span of civilisation, that we know of - say 10000 years.

We've gone from living in caves, to visiting Mars.

so can we suggest other civilisations may have made the same progress - at some point in the millions of years previous, but it ended in tears. So then we started again.

Or this civilisation is the one and only ever on this earth.

Cos if it's the latter- then we spent millions of years slowly evolving from fish to Einstein , and suddenly master our galaxy in like half an hour?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"bassic concepts are relatively simple to understand if you look at the fractality of this reality.

only have to look at a circle to see that everything exists and doesnt exist.

...and the fucking cat IS dead!

That's it! I'm calling the RSPCA.

Bloody quantum cat haters.

In doubt Schrodinger is afraid of the RSPCA"

And to be fair the cat probably got in the box it's self , you know what cats are like.

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By *inky-MinxWoman over a year ago

Grantham

"Gases and elements crushed by massive gravitational forces."

But they had atoms in them?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Do you also believe that there never was a big bang instead the universe have always existed, or whats your theory?

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