FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Immigrants and the media

Immigrants and the media

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Ok, I don't normally go this deep in a post but I feel I need to share my thoughts.

The media are a joke, they are telling lies and spreading malicious scaremongering bulshit across the whole of the UK, they tell us that we are in the middle of an immigration melt down, that thousands upon thousands of immigrants are crossing our borders every day, and taking our jobs and taking our benefits, which is it? Are they taking our jobs and paying tax into the country, so that British born layabouts can buy their big TVs and tracksuits, or are they all calming the £36ish that is the maximum they can claim per week, and not the £20k that everyone thinks they are getting, and social media is just as bad, you have pages like Britain first, shouting from the roof tops about immigrants getting houses, driving lessons, cars, and free everything, if I lived in a war torn country and I saw the posts telling me that I'd be on the first boat here, the reality is that people do not leave their lives and homes just to live on easy street, and living in Britain as an immigrant is not easy street, they have to face the barrage of abuse, that is stirred up by the press, Polish people have the right to live and work in Britain, but the amount of times I have heard people say to work colleagues "did you get here in a container?" It shows your ignorance.

Go and have a look out if your window, have a look now, are there hordes of Eastern Europeans, running down the street raping and pillaging? No? Well there you go, I am the son of immigrants, my father was practically begged to come here, and my mother came from Ireland, so I know first hand of the suspicion of people thinking your family are terrorists, my father worked hard, and got abused by the very people he came here to help in rebuilding of a country almost destroyed by war, only the country's have changed, the sentiment stays the same.

Final thought, if people are coming to this country, and they can't speak English, and they are taking your job, you need to have a look at your life, because if a non English speaking foreigner is better at the job than you, that says more about your skills as a person than it does about the state of the country, stop blaming everyone else because you failed at life

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By *trawberry-popWoman over a year ago

South East Midlands NOT

I'd have to agree that the press are scaremongering. A lot of people here will also be the descendants of immigrants. I know I am!

Immigration is actually good for our country on the whole.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Listen to two series' on R4:

Brits Abroad - 5 short programmes on "expat" Brits;

£3 In My Pocket - onto it's second series but covers the recent history of Asians in the UK.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

7 myths about immigration:

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Listen to two series' on R4:

Brits Abroad - 5 short programmes on "expat" Brits;

£3 In My Pocket - onto it's second series but covers the recent history of Asians in the UK.

Should be available on the radio version of Iplayer I think I'll have a look

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Myth One: Immigration is a taboo subject, everybody is afraid to talk about immigration

“One common gripe is that ‘no one is allowed to talk about immigration’”, writes Michael Rundell. “This will come as a surprise to anyone who scans the front pages of the Sun, Mail or Express, which rarely fail to feature a shouty headline about scrounging migrants or health tourists.”

In reality, as commentator Mehdi Hasan argued in 2011, “There is no conspiracy of silence on immigration. We talk about little else.”

A 2014 report by the British Futures thinktank agrees: “Immigration is the issue that everyone is talking about. Repeated surveys show it is neck-and-neck with the economy as number one issue for the public now, and will be, come the general election.”

As Hasan notes “The very first question of the first televised leader’s debate in British political history [in 2010] was on the subject of immigration.” Immigration was also one of the central discussion topics during the 2015 ITV leadership debate.

The public’s interest is likely energised by continuous public statements by our leaders. In 2011 Prime Minister David Cameron said “This time last year, we said we would listen to people’s concerns and get immigration under control. Today I can confidently say that we are getting there.”

In the same year, in a speech in Munich, Cameron argued that immigrants “speak the language of their new home.”

In 2007, in his first conference speech as Prime Minister, Gordon Brown promised “British jobs for British workers.”

In 2004 the then Prime Minister Tony Blair said the public’s concern about immigration “are real concerns; they are not figments of racist imagination; and they have to be tackled precisely in order to sustain a balanced and sensible argument about migration.”

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Myth Two: Immigrants take jobs away from British people and reduce wages

First, note how this popular myth directly contradicts Myth Three.

In 2009 the Guardian reported “Claims that migrants ‘take our jobs’ and ‘cut our pay’ are misplaced and wrong, according to research published today by the Institute for Public Policy Research.”

The study found no evidence that migration from Eastern Europe since 2004 had had any substantial negative impact on either jobs or wage levels.

Little seems to have changed six years later.

In its 2015 General Election briefing, the Centre for Economic Performance at the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE) observed “There is still no evidence of an overall negative impact of immigration on jobs” and “wages” and that “any negative impacts on wages of less skilled groups are small.”

Answering the question of whether immigration negatively effects jobs or wages, Jonathan Portes, the Director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, notes “The short answer seems to be: not much.” Portes continues: “It’s fairly obvious that wages are generally higher and jobs easier to come by in areas of high immigration like London, while many low migration areas have relatively depressed labour markets.”

How could this be? Portes explains: “People who say this… usually don’t actually know or understand basic economics. More immigrant workers do increase the supply of labour.

But, because immigrants earn money, spend money, set up businesses and so on, they also increase the demand for labour. And it’s true that, if an immigrant takes a job, then a British worker can’t take that job – but it doesn’t meant he or she won’t find another one that may have been created, directly or indirectly, as a result of immigration.”

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Myth Three: Immigrants come to the UK to claim benefits, creating a real problem of benefit tourism

In October 2013 Prime Minster David Cameron said the public’s concern about benefit tourism – migrants coming to the UK to claim benefits rather than work – was “widespread and understandable.”

In contrast, in the same month Business Secretary Vince Cable noted “there is very little evidence of benefit tourism from people coming from Eastern Europe.” Portes concurs, stating “the evidence that a significant number of people come here just to claim benefits is very thin.”

So thin, in fact, that in 2013 a spokesperson for the European Employment Commissioner publicly stated the UK Government had “completely failed to come up with any specific evidence” to show that the UK benefits system was being abused.

It turns out the European Commission had been asking the UK Government for evidence for three years.

Embarrassingly a 2013 classified Home Office report confirmed the British government doesn’t keep any figures on how many European Union nationals claim welfare payments in the UK.

The reality, according to a 2014 University College London study, is that European migrants overwhelmingly come to the UK to work. Eastern Europeans and Western Europeans have an employment rate of 81 percent and 70 percent, respectively.

The study goes on to estimate that migrants coming to the UK since 2000 have been 43 percent less likely to claim benefits or tax credits compared to the UK-born workforce.

This conclusion is supported by the Centre for Economic Performance at LSE that concluded this year “Immigrants, especially in recent years, tend to be younger and better educated than the UK-born and less likely to be unemployed.”

This myth feeds off a wider popular myth about welfare – that people can have a comfortable life living on welfare and that they may even be better off on benefits than in work. However, a plethora of research and first-hand experience has shown this not to be the case.

Moreover, this myth is also based on the assumption that higher benefits will act as a draw for migrants. However, a 2011 study from the Institute for the Study of Labour in Bonn found no correlation between levels of unemployment benefit and immigration to different countries in the European Union, with the authors explicitly rejecting the concept of a "welfare magnet".

As it happens, the Guardian report on the study also notes “Almost no evidence has been produced to show that in international terms UK benefits are more generous than other EU countries.”

An interesting aside: in Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Austria, France and Ireland the number of British people claiming unemployment benefit is almost three times as high as the number of nationals from these countries receiving parallel benefits in the UK. Moreover, often the benefits in these countries are more generous than benefits in the UK.

See also Myth Three.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Myth Five: Health tourism is a big problem for the UK

A 2013 Guardian report highlighted new government commissioned research that “flies in the face of assertions by Jeremy Hunt, the health secretary, that the tourists cost the health service money.”

The study found that more people leave the UK seeking medical treatment abroad than arrive in this country to receive care.

Moreover, the study found that medical tourism is a lucrative source of income for the NHS (and the wider economy), with the 18 hospitals deemed the top destinations for overseas patients earning £42m in 2010.

In addition, in 2013 Guardian columnist Zoe Williams reported that there were more than 20 private Polish medical centres in London, as well as in Manchester, Reading, Bristol and Glasgow. After speaking to Polish people using these clinics, Williams explains they are used for a variety of reasons including the perception the NHS provides a poor service, because of long NHS wait times, the belief Polish nurses are better trained than UK nurses and because of the language barrier.

“Many Polish immigrants will go to some lengths to avoid NHS ‘tourism’, up to and including paying for their care”, writes Williams.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Myth Six: Immigrants are a drain on social housing and often get preferential treatment

This myth was given a boost in 2009 when the Labour Government said it wanted to give local people greater priority for social housing.

However, as the Guardian reported in 2009 “The allegation that new migrants are jumping the queue for council housing and housing association homes was nailed as a myth by research recently published by the Equality and Human Rights Commission.”

The study found that more than 60% of migrants who had come to Britain in the past five years were living in privately rented accommodation, with most newly arrived migrants and asylum seekers actually banned from access to social housing.

A 2009 University College London paper that found immigrants from A8 countries – those who arrived after EU enlargement in 2004 – “are far less likely to live in social housing” than the rest of the UK population.

In 2015 the Centre for Economic Performance at LSE noted “There is still no evidence of an overall negative impact of immigration” on social housing.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

Myth Seven: Immigrants commit more crime than British people

“Crime in neighbourhoods that have experienced mass immigration from eastern Europe over the past 10 years has fallen significantly, according to research that challenges a widely held view over the impact of foreigners in the UK”, noted the Guardian about a 2013 report published by LSE.

“Rates of burglary, vandalism and car theft all dropped following the arrival of migrants from Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary and seven other countries after they joined the European Union in 2004.”

The Guardian story quoted Brian Bell, a research fellow at LSE: "The view that foreigners commit more crime is not true. The truth is that immigrants are just like natives: if they have a good job and a good income they don't commit crime."

These findings echo a 2008 report prepared for the Association of Chief Police Officers, which found offending rates among eastern European immigrants were in line with the rate of offending in the general population.

A senior source with in-depth knowledge of the report explained: "Any rise has been broadly proportionate to the number of people from those communities coming into this country. People are saying crime is rising because of this influx. Given 1 million people have come in, that doesn't make sense as crime is significantly down."

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

There we go, got that off my chest

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"There we go, got that off my chest

You're too quick for me. I was just checking British Futures.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Sometimes perception is as important as reality but it 'seems', from media reports of actual convictions that a disproportionate number of offences, especially offences of serious violence, are committed by immigrants to the UK.

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By *iamondjoeMan over a year ago

Glastonbury

"Sometimes perception is as important as reality but it 'seems', from media reports of actual convictions that a disproportionate number of offences, especially offences of serious violence, are committed by immigrants to the UK."

Yep. See above

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Yep. See above

I noted the para "The Guardian story quoted Brian Bell, a research fellow at LSE: "The view that foreigners commit more crime is not true. The truth is that immigrants are just like natives: if they have a good job and a good income they don't commit crime." "

Can we conclude that those who don't have a good job and a good income DO commit crime?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Providing those who come over work and pay their own way,I couldn't care less tbh. There are more than enough uk idiots taking the piss, taking away from the people who genuinely need the help

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Ok, I don't normally go this deep in a post but I feel I need to share my thoughts.

To be honest you seem as bigoted as a bnp supporter but diametrically opposite!

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By *inaTitzTV/TS over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

I like immigration and diversity. It's healthy and interesting.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I like immigration and diversity. It's healthy and interesting.

"
.

Uganda is the most ethically diverse country in the world.

Just saying for next year's holls

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"I like immigration and diversity. It's healthy and interesting.

Uganda is the most ethically diverse country in the world.

Just saying for next year's holls

And a great place for discussion

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My brother works in a immigration support centre (general advice) on what there are entitled too etc etc. and it is very hard and no way are they entitled to the amount people think they are. On the other hand there are people that come in and ask about if one of there family comes in from holiday from abroad about the procedure on settlement and entitlement. There's good and bad out there. As for the Immigration debate when all else fails, blame the immigrant there not likley to answer back. That's how it comes across from the media.

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By *funtimes.Man over a year ago

Preston

Its called propaganda, could be its to take our attention away from how much debt we are in, if thats the case its working a treat

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By *etsaroundMan over a year ago

Valley's

We are an island, we are full, we need self sustainability.

If you want to join us at the table, you got to bring something with you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Hang on we work damm hard and can't afford dentist glasses even the bloody rent some weeks but you never see a skint immergrant ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 19/08/15 13:06:40]

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By *ythenshawefredMan over a year ago

stockport

Immigration is a good thing in general but at the same time there does need to be a balance ie with housing and school places etc

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The media has been like this for a while. It seems to be there to push an agenda and most of the news isn't biased. Not sure if it's also what some of the people want.

I see you mention british born layabouts buying big screen TVs & track suits. Seems you fell for some of the lies yourself...

Most of us aren't stupid, we know that it is employers taking our jobs when they give them away to someone else for less pay. We know this system is designed to make sure we have as little monetary value, and as little choices, as possible. We know tax payers are paying the wages for millions who should be getting paid by their multi-million profitting employers. We know welfare to work is designed to under cut real jobs and real wages. We know immigrants need jobs and somewhere to live.

We know that the word employment is another word for use, employers is another word for user, and employed is another word for used.

We also know divide and rule is a good technique to use if you want to keep people arguing amongst themselves and the media is a tool for that.

We know that some of the news is real, such as immigrants exploiting the system for benefits but we also know that this is vastly over blown and not reported properly, just like all stories about people on benefits are. A woman got fined £300 for stealing baby food this week after she got sanctioned. She can't pay that but i don;t see stuff like this reported in the same news that slags off benefit claimants. One guy stole food out of a super market bin and the courts let him off, the judge said he could not charge anyone with the crime of wanting to stay alive. There's loads of these stories, people going hungry in a wealthy country that allows tax loopholes that would mean a more compassionate society if those taxes were paid, but people are wising up to this and spreading this news and trying to stop sanctions or feed those who've been sanctioned. We're being run by liars who twist figures for their own agenda, make up lies and don't even care they're doing that as it benefits them. It's sad.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I live in a Borough where 30% of residents were not born in the UK. I live amongst people from all countries and continents. The problems that arose when the population grew rapidly were: Schools not having enough places; doctors appointments more difficult to get when you wanted; roads becoming more congested; small rise in crime. What the Government did was: Build schools; build new health centres; put on more public transport and build new homes and sell off land for private properties. There is still a long list of people waiting for affordable housing but it's being worked on. Pubs, buildings and shops were sitting empty are now being rented out to foreign born clients-bringing in revenue. New building has boosted the building trade. I have one gripe and that is the buses crammed at certain times,but children no longer have schools within walking distance and people have to get around. The crime that came with the criminal element has been addressed and dealt with. All crime in the Borough has reportedly gone down. I like the diversity that immigration brings; we won't all get along, but hopefully the longer we live together the more people try.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Personally, I think the standard of journalism and television has dropped in this country, however in a capitalist society, what there doing is selling you stuff and there going to sell you the stuff that you wanna buy and fear sells stuff better than love!

And to be perfectly honest in this day and age, there's no excuse to be ill informed!

My problem is you have one side screaming bloody murder for letting anyone come in.

And then you have the other side screaming bloody murder for not letting everyone in.

And the reality is there's good and bad points to both arguments but in reality there both impossible practicalities.

Myth 3

Immigration(growth) has never paid for itself anywhere at any time!

You may decide you want to expand certain industries for various reasons, but that has to be paid for!

Infrastructure is not cheap!

It's mainly what separates wealthy countries from poor ones!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Its called propaganda, could be its to take our attention away from how much debt we are in, if thats the case its working a treat"

Maybe the debt is propaganda too, to divert our attention from the cruelty inflicted by our government upon vulnerable people in the UK.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

There are people of all nationalities exploiting our benefits and housing system. I blame the Government for making it too easy. An Asian woman I worked with said to me You wouldn't believe the amount of Asian people who are conning the Government. I said I would but it's not just Asian people. She admitted to helping people make new claims and how to get higher up the housing list. It happens with all races and people who were born in the country I told her.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"We are an island, we are full, we need self sustainability.

If you want to join us at the table, you got to bring something with you."

We are NOT full. Not by a long way.

There's loads of space. What we're short of is resources - schools, homes, hospital beds etc and you can't bring a hospital bed from Ethiopia.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We are an island, we are full, we need self sustainability.

If you want to join us at the table, you got to bring something with you."

So a persons life is only judged worthy in accordance with what they have to offer, not based upon how far our compassion reaches. The Uk is not an island floating in space, it is part of a planet called Earth.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Ok, I don't normally go this deep in a post but I feel I need to share my thoughts.

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By *funtimes.Man over a year ago

Preston

"Its called propaganda, could be its to take our attention away from how much debt we are in, if thats the case its working a treat

Maybe the debt is propaganda too, to divert our attention from the cruelty inflicted by our government upon vulnerable people in the UK."

sure the debt is propaganda, its far worse than they say

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Its called propaganda, could be its to take our attention away from how much debt we are in, if thats the case its working a treat

Maybe the debt is propaganda too, to divert our attention from the cruelty inflicted by our government upon vulnerable people in the UK.

sure the debt is propaganda, its far worse than they say"

How can you be sure?

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"Its called propaganda, could be its to take our attention away from how much debt we are in, if thats the case its working a treat

Maybe the debt is propaganda too, to divert our attention from the cruelty inflicted by our government upon vulnerable people in the UK.

sure the debt is propaganda, its far worse than they say

How can you be sure?"

Cos it's the Tories ho are telling us about the debt.

Lying bastards!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Its called propaganda, could be its to take our attention away from how much debt we are in, if thats the case its working a treat

Maybe the debt is propaganda too, to divert our attention from the cruelty inflicted by our government upon vulnerable people in the UK.

sure the debt is propaganda, its far worse than they say

How can you be sure?

Cos it's the Tories ho are telling us about the debt.

Lying bastards!"

A Tory politician, lying, surely not.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We are an island, we are full, we need self sustainability.

If you want to join us at the table, you got to bring something with you.

We are NOT full. Not by a long way.

There's loads of space. What we're short of is resources - schools, homes, hospital beds etc and you can't bring a hospital bed from Ethiopia."
.

Actually England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world!.

Just because you can look out a window and see fields doesn't mean there's loads of space!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I will address the taking our jobs issue. I work for a company that has to tender for contracts in the building /maintenance trade. At one point,a few years ago the boss told my husband he was thinking of laying off some of the workforce and employing foreign workers,because they will work for a lot less. One man who currently worked for him was paid £50 per night less than everyone else. Good business practice for someone who is struggling to gain contracts because the prices are falling. Bad for the men who were either laid off for not taking a pay cut or who had to now live on a £250 per week pay cut. Bear in mind that the foreign workers did not have families here,did not have mortgages and were going home after 8/10 years of working abroad. I found it ironic that the man on £50 less than everyone else used to complain about the Polish workers invading his country and undercutting all the work. It has changed since those days,people now need a lot of paperwork to do this work and get on building sites and Underground stations to prove they can do the work and know the health and safety rules. I hope they also get the going rates of pay too.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We are an island, we are full, we need self sustainability.

If you want to join us at the table, you got to bring something with you.

We are NOT full. Not by a long way.

There's loads of space. What we're short of is resources - schools, homes, hospital beds etc and you can't bring a hospital bed from Ethiopia..

Actually England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world!.

Just because you can look out a window and see fields doesn't mean there's loads of space!"

The people who can see fields may not like waking up to find 4'800 new flats being built on them. And the rest..

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"We are an island, we are full, we need self sustainability.

If you want to join us at the table, you got to bring something with you.

We are NOT full. Not by a long way.

There's loads of space. What we're short of is resources - schools, homes, hospital beds etc and you can't bring a hospital bed from Ethiopia..

Actually England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world!.

Just because you can look out a window and see fields doesn't mean there's loads of space!"

So what does it mean?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Golf courses take up more of our island than housing. Just to get that into perspective about the housing shortage/over crowding situation.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We are an island, we are full, we need self sustainability.

If you want to join us at the table, you got to bring something with you.

We are NOT full. Not by a long way.

There's loads of space. What we're short of is resources - schools, homes, hospital beds etc and you can't bring a hospital bed from Ethiopia..

Actually England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world!.

Just because you can look out a window and see fields doesn't mean there's loads of space!

So what does it mean?"
.

It's called agricultural land!

You know for growing stuff

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Golf courses take up more of our island than housing. Just to get that into perspective about the housing shortage/over crowding situation. "
.

Lol no they don't!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Golf courses take up more of our island than housing. Just to get that into perspective about the housing shortage/over crowding situation. .

Lol no they don't!"

Aw, but i got told that just this week, by the biased media.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"We are an island, we are full, we need self sustainability.

If you want to join us at the table, you got to bring something with you.

We are NOT full. Not by a long way.

There's loads of space. What we're short of is resources - schools, homes, hospital beds etc and you can't bring a hospital bed from Ethiopia..

Actually England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world!.

Just because you can look out a window and see fields doesn't mean there's loads of space!

So what does it mean?.

It's called agricultural land!

You know for growing stuff

Like grouse?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Golf courses take up more of our island than housing. Just to get that into perspective about the housing shortage/over crowding situation. .

Lol no they don't!

Aw, but i got told that just this week, by the biased media."
.

Just turn on your Google maps and look at Any city or town, you'll see lots and lots of houses, houses that need roads, shops, schools, hospitals, offices, industrial estates, you'll probably see some big ponds and reservoirs to provide water for the houses, and then you'll see a big green bit outside of the towns and we use that green stuff for growing food for the people in the houses and growing food for the animals which those people in those houses eat!

Now if you look further afield you'll probably see a large proportion of land that's not really'farmed' and not got houses

There national parks, dales, hilly areas like welsh mountains, lake district.. Not only would it be wrong morally to build there but also unpractical!

I think if I remember correctly England's population density is somewhere around 450p km

That puts us in the top 20 and most of the top 20 is made up of tiny island's if you removed them England would be in the top 10 most densely populated

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

All this fear of immigration is conceptual, people read and believe, find out for yourselves, do some research, The truth is out there.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"All this fear of immigration is conceptual, people read and believe, find out for yourselves, do some research, The truth is out there."

And that's how you condense everything I said down to the truth, good work

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We are an island, we are full, we need self sustainability.

If you want to join us at the table, you got to bring something with you.

We are NOT full. Not by a long way.

There's loads of space. What we're short of is resources - schools, homes, hospital beds etc and you can't bring a hospital bed from Ethiopia..

Actually England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world!.

Just because you can look out a window and see fields doesn't mean there's loads of space!

So what does it mean?.

It's called agricultural land!

You know for growing stuff

Like grouse?"
.

What do you mean like grouse?

Are you trying to say there's massive amounts of land in Scotland that could be used!

There's a reason why Scotland's sparsely populated... It's not ideally suited for mass population, a bit like a lot of Wales!.

Or are you trying to say there's huge amounts of land that's being used for farming grouse by the ultra wealthy few.

Because that's not actually true either, although there are some very large areas owned by a some nobility, your not taking big percentages of the total!

What I really don't get about immigration is the fact that nobody seems like they want to fix the problems that cause 95% of immigration,

Let 500 Eritreans in at Calais because there all cold and Hungary but what about the million other Eritreans in Eritrea who are Hungary and persecuted... Ohh fuck them, I've eased my moral conscience with the 500 at Calais

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Golf courses take up more of our island than housing. Just to get that into perspective about the housing shortage/over crowding situation. .

Lol no they don't!

Aw, but i got told that just this week, by the biased media..

Now if you look further afield you'll probably see a large proportion of land that's not really'farmed' and not got houses

There national parks, dales, hilly areas like welsh mountains, lake district.. Not only would it be wrong morally to build there but also unpractical!

I think if I remember correctly England's population density is somewhere around 450p km

That puts us in the top 20 and most of the top 20 is made up of tiny island's if you removed them England would be in the top 10 most densely populated"

That population density is what you get when you put a referee and two linesmen on a full sized football pitch. We're not being compressed shoulder to shoulder as some would like us to believe. Population densities in towns in England are anything from 10 to 25 times that including in some of the wealthiest and upmarket regions.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Golf courses take up more of our island than housing. Just to get that into perspective about the housing shortage/over crowding situation. .

Lol no they don't!

Aw, but i got told that just this week, by the biased media..

Now if you look further afield you'll probably see a large proportion of land that's not really'farmed' and not got houses

There national parks, dales, hilly areas like welsh mountains, lake district.. Not only would it be wrong morally to build there but also unpractical!

I think if I remember correctly England's population density is somewhere around 450p km

That puts us in the top 20 and most of the top 20 is made up of tiny island's if you removed them England would be in the top 10 most densely populated

It's 450 people per sq kilometre

Or 1000 metres by 1000 metres.

In that land you have to obviously allow for

Space for houses, grow food, harvest water, provide energy, keep livestock, houses etc etc

This country is nearly at a traditional capacity, that's just factual, you don't have to be a member of ukip or even the green party to see that!

You could possibly accommodate twice as much maybe 120 130 million but you would almost certainly have to make wholesale changes like importing 50% of your food minimum probably more like 80% unless everyone goes vegetarian, cremate every dead person or even better biodegrade them for fertiliser, change planning laws, wholesale changes to your energy system, water, sewage, transport, health!

What people just don't understand is all the stuff they don't see!

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"Hang on we work damm hard and can't afford dentist glasses even the bloody rent some weeks but you never see a skint immergrant ..."

You clearly never got those glasses then.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Golf courses take up more of our island than housing. Just to get that into perspective about the housing shortage/over crowding situation. .

Lol no they don't!

Aw, but i got told that just this week, by the biased media..

Now if you look further afield you'll probably see a large proportion of land that's not really'farmed' and not got houses

There national parks, dales, hilly areas like welsh mountains, lake district.. Not only would it be wrong morally to build there but also unpractical!

I think if I remember correctly England's population density is somewhere around 450p km

That puts us in the top 20 and most of the top 20 is made up of tiny island's if you removed them England would be in the top 10 most densely populated

It's 450 people per sq kilometre

Or 1000 metres by 1000 metres.

In that land you have to obviously allow for

Space for houses, grow food, harvest water, provide energy, keep livestock, houses etc etc

This country is nearly at a traditional capacity, that's just factual, you don't have to be a member of ukip or even the green party to see that!

What people just don't understand is all the stuff they don't see!"

I've no idea what a 'traditional capacity' is. It's about as meaningless to me as saying 400/sq km is crowded.

The point is that 400 ish people per sq Km covers a whole range of figures. So population density tends to be far far higher in cities (e.g. 11000/sq km in Westminster) and much much lower in the countryside down to 25/sq km in Eden in Cumbria. Maidstone in Kent has the 'average' population density (407/sq km) and is a rural borough where you won't find people moaning about being overcrowded except that now I've provoked it.

Take for example the massive increase in the Polish population in the early part of this century. Many of them went to the East of London in existing housing without gobbling up the countryside around.

UK Population growth at the moment is about 0.7% per year according to ONS figures in June (0.8% for England) which isn't beyond the skills of planners to cope with. It's been at that average rate since 2000 without the national infrastructure collapsing totally.

Overall the UK population density puts it at about 50th in the world; England is at about 30th and roughly the same as the Netherlands and 10% or so higher than Germany or Italy.

But then again a single population density figure doesn't say anything particularly useful given the variations it covers, so I'm not sure why people get so het up about it - I bet the worst complainers are in Eden

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Golf courses take up more of our island than housing. Just to get that into perspective about the housing shortage/over crowding situation. .

Lol no they don't!

Aw, but i got told that just this week, by the biased media..

Now if you look further afield you'll probably see a large proportion of land that's not really'farmed' and not got houses

There national parks, dales, hilly areas like welsh mountains, lake district.. Not only would it be wrong morally to build there but also unpractical!

I think if I remember correctly England's population density is somewhere around 450p km

That puts us in the top 20 and most of the top 20 is made up of tiny island's if you removed them England would be in the top 10 most densely populated

It's 450 people per sq kilometre

Or 1000 metres by 1000 metres.

In that land you have to obviously allow for

Space for houses, grow food, harvest water, provide energy, keep livestock, houses etc etc

This country is nearly at a traditional capacity, that's just factual, you don't have to be a member of ukip or even the green party to see that!

What people just don't understand is all the stuff they don't see!"

According to the most recent figures on the ONS website, in mid-2013 the population density of England was 413 people per sq km compared with 149 people per sq km in Wales and 135 people per sq km in Northern Ireland. Scotland has the lowest population density at 68 people per sq km.

There you go - it's shrunk by about 10% since you posted that it was 450.

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By *nleashedCrakenMan over a year ago

Widnes

"We are an island, we are full, we need self sustainability.

If you want to join us at the table, you got to bring something with you.

We are NOT full. Not by a long way.

There's loads of space. What we're short of is resources - schools, homes, hospital beds etc and you can't bring a hospital bed from Ethiopia..

Actually England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world!.

Just because you can look out a window and see fields doesn't mean there's loads of space!

So what does it mean?.

It's called agricultural land!

You know for growing stuff

Like grouse?.

What do you mean like grouse?

Are you trying to say there's massive amounts of land in Scotland that could be used!

There's a reason why Scotland's sparsely populated... It's not ideally suited for mass population, a bit like a lot of Wales!.

Or are you trying to say there's huge amounts of land that's being used for farming grouse by the ultra wealthy few.

Because that's not actually true either, although there are some very large areas owned by a some nobility, your not taking big percentages of the total!

What I really don't get about immigration is the fact that nobody seems like they want to fix the problems that cause 95% of immigration,

Well said and actually hits the real problem with immigration. It's not the harm done here, if any, that's the real problem; its the harm done in the countries they have left that's definitely a problem for those countries.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Golf courses take up more of our island than housing. Just to get that into perspective about the housing shortage/over crowding situation. .

Lol no they don't!

Aw, but i got told that just this week, by the biased media..

Now if you look further afield you'll probably see a large proportion of land that's not really'farmed' and not got houses

There national parks, dales, hilly areas like welsh mountains, lake district.. Not only would it be wrong morally to build there but also unpractical!

I think if I remember correctly England's population density is somewhere around 450p km

That puts us in the top 20 and most of the top 20 is made up of tiny island's if you removed them England would be in the top 10 most densely populated

It's 450 people per sq kilometre

Or 1000 metres by 1000 metres.

In that land you have to obviously allow for

Space for houses, grow food, harvest water, provide energy, keep livestock, houses etc etc

This country is nearly at a traditional capacity, that's just factual, you don't have to be a member of ukip or even the green party to see that!

What people just don't understand is all the stuff they don't see!

There you go - it's shrunk by about 10% since you posted that it was 450."
.

Well I don't have all day to look every figure up!

That's why I put "I think it's 450"

You can't qoute UK figures

Scotland and Wales completely disfigure the reality.

Scotland's not far from the size of England with what 4 million? (Again top of my head from what I can remember).

Most of it is completely uninhabitable for modern life, unless you want to spend a trillion on infrastructure?.

Let's stick with England as that's where the vast vast majority of the UK population live (for a reason).

So it's population density is 422 did you say? Anyhow what ever it's very high by world standards, you keep making the same mistake by quoting it against city density's?

Now where do the 11 million people in London get there food! Or water, sewerage, energy,... Etc etc... From outside of London!

Read my post, I said you could jam in 130 million but you ain't doing it without one major fucking overhaul of our current economy and infrastructure.

So anyhow traditional requirements for space per person, it relies on space to grow food! Live in a house with a garden, have recreational space... You know shit like we've had for years!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

There are a couple of non British big issue sellers in the town I live in.

Every week, they can be seen in the post office doing a money transfer out of the Uk.

And the local do-gooders take them to Costa or similar for lunch...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In what possible way is "perception as important as reality"????

If you perceive something, then check the facts and realise you were wrong surely you change your perception.

Earlier posts reafirmed my faith that Fabswingers are better people than the bigots who write lies in the tabloids

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By *rightonsteveMan over a year ago

Brighton - even Hove!

If I and my family lived in a war zone, I'd do anything possible to try and keep them safe and give them a future.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Golf courses take up more of our island than housing. Just to get that into perspective about the housing shortage/over crowding situation. .

Lol no they don't!

Aw, but i got told that just this week, by the biased media..

Now if you look further afield you'll probably see a large proportion of land that's not really'farmed' and not got houses

There national parks, dales, hilly areas like welsh mountains, lake district.. Not only would it be wrong morally to build there but also unpractical!

I think if I remember correctly England's population density is somewhere around 450p km

That puts us in the top 20 and most of the top 20 is made up of tiny island's if you removed them England would be in the top 10 most densely populated

It's 450 people per sq kilometre

Or 1000 metres by 1000 metres.

In that land you have to obviously allow for

Space for houses, grow food, harvest water, provide energy, keep livestock, houses etc etc

This country is nearly at a traditional capacity, that's just factual, you don't have to be a member of ukip or even the green party to see that!

What people just don't understand is all the stuff they don't see!

There you go - it's shrunk by about 10% since you posted that it was 450..

Well I don't have all day to look every figure up!

That's why I put "I think it's 450"

You can't qoute UK figures

Scotland and Wales completely disfigure the reality.

Scotland's not far from the size of England with what 4 million? (Again top of my head from what I can remember).

Most of it is completely uninhabitable for modern life, unless you want to spend a trillion on infrastructure?.

Let's stick with England as that's where the vast vast majority of the UK population live (for a reason).

So it's population density is 422 did you say? Anyhow what ever it's very high by world standards, you keep making the same mistake by quoting it against city density's?

Now where do the 11 million people in London get there food! Or water, sewerage, energy,... Etc etc... From outside of London!

Read my post, I said you could jam in 130 million but you ain't doing it without one major fucking overhaul of our current economy and infrastructure.

So anyhow traditional requirements for space per person, it relies on space to grow food! Live in a house with a garden, have recreational space... You know shit like we've had for years!"

No you said 422, I wrote the figure from the ONS. You also made up 130 million, which isn't relevant to any reality, or fucking reality if it helps to swear about it, given a growth rate of 0.7-0.8% per year at the moment. Only in a dream world does everyone have a house built for them - have a quick look at inner city living where most of these people go - they tend to increase their number density or go upwards in high rise. You're quite right that more people consume more resources and need more infrastructure, but that's got absolutely nothing to do with population density but absolute population numbers. The population density figure is a red herring.

There are lots of factors that affect our need to overhaul infrastructure. Population growth is one, as is having to retire worn out infrastructure, which happens independently of the population, or the drive to replace polluting energy resources with less polluting resources. There are huge requirements for infrastructure replacement because the stuff wears out, not just because of population -think about power stations, sewers, roads, public buildings - they all have a limited life independent of population growth

None of this is a problem with a single dimension. It pleases some people to blame immigration or population growth without thinking that that is just part of a wider problem that infrastructure planners have to take account of each year... each day.

Just misquoting one dimension, population density, as if it's the scary cause of all our ills is misleading.

If you can't get the basic numbers right, you can't plan properly. I hope the planners can be arsed to look them up.

Of course I can quote UK figures if I want to. For example they include much of that recreational space you refer to. Just because you say that Scotland and Wales 'disfigure reality' doesn't make that true. Your world view always wants to take the most pessimistic view of numbers (and just occasionally exaggerate them too???).

As before, you don't need to build everywhere to increase population in a country. It tends to happen in cities where people already are. Some might say Scotland is far better placed to take more people with ample supplies of energy, more water than they know what to do with and a vibrant population with a positive outlook to the rest of Europe. And tons of recreational space too.

I don't mind your doom and gloom view of the world. Eventually it will all come tumbling down round our ears but I doubt that you or any of the rest of us here will be alive for you to be able to say 'I told you so'.