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EU referendum
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"I'll accept whatever the people decide in the referendum......... "is it a 'once in a generation' one or if we don't agree with the result we will start speaking about the next the day after | |||
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"I'll accept whatever the people decide in the referendum.........
is it a 'once in a generation' one or if we don't agree with the result we will start speaking about the next the day after "If Britain votes yes then there will not be another one in most peoples lifetime. If Britain votes no there will be another one within a few months, and another, and another, until Britain gets the "right answer" Trust me. Brussels has got serious form for it. | |||
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"I'll accept whatever the people decide in the referendum.........
is it a 'once in a generation' one or if we don't agree with the result we will start speaking about the next the day after "Haha.... yeah View ...... It would appear some members of the political establishment don't fully understand the concept of accepting the choice of the people.... | |||
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"I'll accept whatever the people decide in the referendum.........
is it a 'once in a generation' one or if we don't agree with the result we will start speaking about the next the day after
Haha.... yeah View ...... It would appear some members of the political establishment don't fully understand the concept of accepting the choice of the people.... "because we will scream and scream and scream until we do get our way | |||
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"My parents say when in commonwealth you had more pride in your country" They are spot on. Labour under Blair and Brown made it racist to have pride in Britain. | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? " No, that's false. The human rights act is a domestic application of the European convention on human rights, a document created by the council of Europe, separate from the EU. Scrapping the HRA is just another government ploy to rob judges of their human rights protection role, but it's being discussed as though it's some sort of act of liberation from Europe. And also, it frustrates me that people rely on the short term financial implications to justify leaving the EU, seemingly ignoring the fact that we should, as a species really, be working towards integration in the long term. | |||
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"I'll accept whatever the people decide in the referendum.........
is it a 'once in a generation' one or if we don't agree with the result we will start speaking about the next the day after
If Britain votes yes then there will not be another one in most peoples lifetime.
If Britain votes no there will be another one within a few months, and another, and another, until Britain gets the "right answer"
Trust me. Brussels has got serious form for it." Yes I'm sure Ireland know all about it already but that's the EU's version of democracy in a nutshell. I'm not sure Britain will stand for it though and we won't be bullied into another referendum so easily if we vote to leave. | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? " Even if we stay in the EU the tories are saying they want leave the European Court of human rights anyway and we can have a new bill of rights. Why? So we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life here and stop prisoners being allowed to vote in elections ( which the ECHR wants them to do). | |||
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"100% out! " 100% agree! | |||
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" Exactly why Britain needs to leave the EU. Look at Greece as am example when you keep handing more power over to Brussels. you mean rUK may want to leave; Scotland is staying, with or without you Scotland voted to stay part of the uk. If the uk as a whole votes to leave the EU, then that includes Scotland. " No s_nny Jim; if Scotland votes to stay in; whilst rest of UK vote to leave, then that is an automatic mandate for another Independence referendum and this time the guidable no voters have seen through the hipped up lies and deceit of Tory and Labour sabotage against Scotland. | |||
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" Exactly why Britain needs to leave the EU. Look at Greece as am example when you keep handing more power over to Brussels. you mean rUK may want to leave; Scotland is staying, with or without you Scotland voted to stay part of the uk. If the uk as a whole votes to leave the EU, then that includes Scotland. No s_nny Jim; if Scotland votes to stay in; whilst rest of UK vote to leave, then that is an automatic mandate for another Independence referendum and this time the guidable no voters have seen through the hipped up lies and deceit of Tory and Labour sabotage against Scotland. " It doesn't bother me, I'd happily see Scotland independent and the rest of the uk outside of the EU. Now wether the EU wants an independent Scotland as part of the EU club is an entirety different matter. If Scotland goes on its own you may have some trouble in store trying to gain EU membership as an independent state. During the Scottish referendum debate Spain said it loud and clear they would block all attempts by an independent Scotland to join the EU because of the catalonia issue in their own country and they fear it would be a green light for a independence referendum in their own country. | |||
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"I'll accept whatever the people decide in the referendum......... "If only everyone accepted the result of a referendum. | |||
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"I'll accept whatever the people decide in the referendum.........
If only everyone accepted the result of a referendum."we do, but it fuels us up all the more for the next one, and this time less will bottle out | |||
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"I'll accept whatever the people decide in the referendum.........
If only everyone accepted the result of a referendum."You mean like Brussels accepted the first result in Ireland? | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? " No, we have our own HRA. That's the one the Tories want to repeal. And the ECHR is not based upon the EU but the Council of Europe. | |||
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"My parents say when in commonwealth you had more pride in your country" But we're still in it.  | |||
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" Exactly why Britain needs to leave the EU. Look at Greece as am example when you keep handing more power over to Brussels. you mean rUK may want to leave; Scotland is staying, with or without you Scotland voted to stay part of the uk. If the uk as a whole votes to leave the EU, then that includes Scotland. No s_nny Jim; if Scotland votes to stay in; whilst rest of UK vote to leave, then that is an automatic mandate for another Independence referendum and this time the guidable no voters have seen through the hipped up lies and deceit of Tory and Labour sabotage against Scotland. " Northern Ireland won't vote for it either in my opinion. | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth " | |||
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"For me this is about the politics of further political integration, not so much the economic considerations" Gst rid of the UK government,and make us all states in a federated European union...lets start the journey to a united world government.. | |||
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"My parents say when in commonwealth you had more pride in your country They are spot on. Labour under Blair and Brown made it racist to have pride in Britain. " If by pride you mean excluding people from feeling or being British because they're not white then I'm glad. | |||
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"100% out! " | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth " How can you go back to something you're already in? | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? " I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. " With Britain trying to call the shots - yeah they'll love that. | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. " | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. " I didn't know we had. Shops around here have plenty of Commonwealth produce on sale. | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. With Britain trying to call the shots - yeah they'll love that. " Who says we'll call the shots? | |||
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" Exactly why Britain needs to leave the EU. Look at Greece as am example when you keep handing more power over to Brussels. you mean rUK may want to leave; Scotland is staying, with or without you Scotland voted to stay part of the uk. If the uk as a whole votes to leave the EU, then that includes Scotland. No s_nny Jim; if Scotland votes to stay in; whilst rest of UK vote to leave, then that is an automatic mandate for another Independence referendum and this time the guidable no voters have seen through the hipped up lies and deceit of Tory and Labour sabotage against Scotland. " I would rather have lies than the threats many of the no voters were faced with during the build up to the Scottish referendum. perhaps you could explain why it is better to be ruled by the EU rather than a partner in the UK. Scotland has more independence in the UK than it ever will in a more intergrated EU | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm." . Suggest stick to attempting to get your cock milked in penge. Your te reasons to stay are fatuous. Though some reflect The tabloid arguments Cameron has and will present. So you have in your corner that lunatic political suicide, at least. Perhaps he will milk your cock when he's done with Junckers' and Hollandes' not forgetting Merkels huge strap on. Once she has in turn done fucking the Greeks. | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm." Reasons to leave the EU. ... 1. More free trade with the rest of the world outside of the restrictions of the EU. 2. Cut EU business red tape which will encourage more investment into Britain. 3. Save over 50 million per day in Eu membership fees. 4. Even save billions when the EU hits us with one off bills like they did last November. 5. Take back control of our borders, which we can't control properly while we are in the EU. 6. An end to closer political union with the rest of Europe whose ultimate goal is a united states of Europe. 7. No more nonsensical EU laws being forced on us such as the recent one involving hoovers ( really you couldn't make it up.) 
8. No more having to make EU carbon reduction targets and green levies which push up household bills. Utterly pointless unless tackled on a worldwide level.
9. Leave the ECHR, so we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life and stop prisoners getting the right to vote.
10. Take back control of our fishing industry which has been decimated by ridiculous EU fishing rules and quotas.
11. No more threats from the EU to impose a financial transactions tax on the city of London.
We could end up better off economically if we leave the EU. The British public are pretty sensible when it comes to voting, thank god they rejected that lunatic called Ed Miliband. | |||
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" Exactly why Britain needs to leave the EU. Look at Greece as am example when you keep handing more power over to Brussels. you mean rUK may want to leave; Scotland is staying, with or without you Scotland voted to stay part of the uk. If the uk as a whole votes to leave the EU, then that includes Scotland. No s_nny Jim; if Scotland votes to stay in; whilst rest of UK vote to leave, then that is an automatic mandate for another Independence referendum and this time the guidable no voters have seen through the hipped up lies and deceit of Tory and Labour sabotage against Scotland. Northern Ireland won't vote for it either in my opinion. " Northern Ireland are part of the uk, so will accept the result of the uk as a whole. | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm. Reasons to leave the EU. ... 1. More free trade with the rest of the world outside of the restrictions of the EU. 2. Cut EU business red tape which will encourage more investment into Britain. 3. Save over 50 million per day in Eu membership fees. 4. Even save billions when the EU hits us with one off bills like they did last November. 5. Take back control of our borders, which we can't control properly while we are in the EU. 6. An end to closer political union with the rest of Europe whose ultimate goal is a united states of Europe. 7. No more nonsensical EU laws being forced on us such as the recent one involving hoovers ( really you couldn't make it up.)
8. No more having to make EU carbon reduction targets and green levies which push up household bills. Utterly pointless unless tackled on a worldwide level.
9. Leave the ECHR, so we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life and stop prisoners getting the right to vote.
10. Take back control of our fishing industry which has been decimated by ridiculous EU fishing rules and quotas.
11. No more threats from the EU to impose a financial transactions tax on the city of London.
We could end up better off economically if we leave the EU. The British public are pretty sensible when it comes to voting, thank god they rejected that lunatic called Ed Miliband. " ...Well said. | |||
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" Exactly why Britain needs to leave the EU. Look at Greece as am example when you keep handing more power over to Brussels. you mean rUK may want to leave; Scotland is staying, with or without you Scotland voted to stay part of the uk. If the uk as a whole votes to leave the EU, then that includes Scotland. No s_nny Jim; if Scotland votes to stay in; whilst rest of UK vote to leave, then that is an automatic mandate for another Independence referendum and this time the guidable no voters have seen through the hipped up lies and deceit of Tory and Labour sabotage against Scotland. Northern Ireland won't vote for it either in my opinion. Northern Ireland are part of the uk, so will accept the result of the uk as a whole. " And all the people of NI want to be part of the UK nevermind the EU? Someone's clutching at straws.  | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade. yes but only within an economic block with (at best) stagnating growth and a percentage of world trade that shrinks every year. Outside the EU trade is anything but free as Britain has to negotiate at EU level. Britain loses billions because of EU trade barriers. 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain. No the EU actively discourages investment in Britain. While some inward investment does come Britain's way because of EU membership, most of it it because Britain is a much better place to do business that in most of mainland Europe. The prime example of the EU trying to sabotage the British economy is the financial transaction tax, which is nothing more than a tool to tranfer business from London to Frankfurt. 3. Police coordination. Interpol was around even before Britain joined the EU 4. EU Structural Funds. So they give us a few quid of our own money back. Big deal. 5. Influence within Europe. What influence? Every Prime Minister since Maggie has been forced to tow the EU line. They might chuck a few crumbs from the table so the British government can flog the deal to Joe Public, but beyond that there is very little influence. 6. Influence outside Europe. Why would we need Brussels to have influence in say India or the US? 7. Immigration- good for Britain. John McEnroe moment. You cannot be serious. Roma beggars and the current situation in Calais (to mention just a couple) are good for Britain? 8. Emigration- good for the British. The Spanish will welcome anyone from outside the EU now. Hence the number of Russians that live there. In other country's skilled people will always be welcomed but maybe it will shut down the Costa del Crime, so not that bad after all. 9. Market fairness. Tell that to a British farmer. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Yes it does. Like it allows anarchic French farmers to bring the country to a standstill. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm." Any advantages Britain would lose by leaving would be more than outweighed by the advantages gained by being in charge of its own trade and borders. Finally remember this. Britain has a trade deficit with the EU. They would be a lot more concerned about losing Britain's markets than Britain would be about losing theirs. | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. With Britain trying to call the shots - yeah they'll love that. Who says we'll call the shots? " Well that's what we did when the Commonwealth was political. I thought we wanted to go back to it? The UK right wingers can't stand it when we're not calling the shots. I can just hear the chants now... "The Maori need to be a smaller minority! Commonwealth! Commonwealth!" | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm. Reasons to leave the EU. ... 1. More free trade with the rest of the world outside of the restrictions of the EU. 2. Cut EU business red tape which will encourage more investment into Britain. 3. Save over 50 million per day in Eu membership fees. 4. Even save billions when the EU hits us with one off bills like they did last November. 5. Take back control of our borders, which we can't control properly while we are in the EU. 6. An end to closer political union with the rest of Europe whose ultimate goal is a united states of Europe. 7. No more nonsensical EU laws being forced on us such as the recent one involving hoovers ( really you couldn't make it up.)
8. No more having to make EU carbon reduction targets and green levies which push up household bills. Utterly pointless unless tackled on a worldwide level.
9. Leave the ECHR, so we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life and stop prisoners getting the right to vote.
10. Take back control of our fishing industry which has been decimated by ridiculous EU fishing rules and quotas.
11. No more threats from the EU to impose a financial transactions tax on the city of London.
We could end up better off economically if we leave the EU. The British public are pretty sensible when it comes to voting, thank god they rejected that lunatic called Ed Miliband. ...Well said."Yep that is worth a few thumbs from me as well. | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. With Britain trying to call the shots - yeah they'll love that. Who says we'll call the shots? Well that's what we did when the Commonwealth was political. I thought we wanted to go back to it? The UK right wingers can't stand it when we're not calling the shots. I can just hear the chants now... "The Maori need to be a smaller minority! Commonwealth! Commonwealth!" " I think the rest of the commonwealth would be overjoyed to have more trade with the uk than we currently allow. | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. With Britain trying to call the shots - yeah they'll love that. Who says we'll call the shots? Well that's what we did when the Commonwealth was political. I thought we wanted to go back to it? The UK right wingers can't stand it when we're not calling the shots. I can just hear the chants now... "The Maori need to be a smaller minority! Commonwealth! Commonwealth!" I think the rest of the commonwealth would be overjoyed to have more trade with the uk than we currently allow. " Well no doubt, most of them are from the UK. | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm.. Suggest stick to attempting to get your cock milked in penge. Your te reasons to stay are fatuous. Though some reflect The tabloid arguments Cameron has and will present. So you have in your corner that lunatic political suicide, at least. Perhaps he will milk your cock when he's done with Junckers' and Hollandes' not forgetting Merkels huge strap on. Once she has in turn done fucking the Greeks. " Nah. I am straight lol | |||
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" 9. Leave the ECHR, so we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life and stop prisoners getting the right to vote. " Comments like this frustrate me. Talk about killing an ant with a sledgehammer. If the UK were to leave the ECHR, the government would start acting a damnsight more draconian, and there's nothing the courts will be able to do about it, I can promise you that. | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. " how does that work..? commerce will go wherever is best.. nature of the beast.. | |||
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" One thing to consider, amongst many : The EU are set on having Turkey in the EU. That is the Turkey who are currently using jets to bomb the Kurds. Against that, they do offer nice and cheap holidays. " thought France were opposed to them joining? | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. how does that work..? commerce will go wherever is best.. nature of the beast.. " Should'nt be the EU then should it? Most of the EU is still in recession. | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. how does that work..? commerce will go wherever is best.. nature of the beast.. Should'nt be the EU then should it? Most of the EU is still in recession. " It will go wherever is best for them, max profits etc and if we leave and its better to still deal within the EU then some will still do that, it happened before and wont change.. how have we turned our backs on the commonwealth..? | |||
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"Dump Europe and go back to the commonwealth How can you go back to something you're already in? I think he means leave the EU and go back to having stronger economic links and more trade with the Commonwealth who we pretty much turned our backs on since we joined the EU. how does that work..? commerce will go wherever is best.. nature of the beast.. Should'nt be the EU then should it? Most of the EU is still in recession. " It would be really bad news for the EU if that was true. But UKIP HQ has been feeding you rubbish again. Two EU countries are in recession i.e have had two consecutive quarters of falling GDP: Finland and Greece. Two out of 28 isn't anywhere near 'most' of the EU. | |||
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"I have a sneaking suspicion that a lot of dislike for the European Union is not based on reasoned argument, but misguided patriotism." English nationalism is not a broad church.  | |||
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"what ever happens and the people decide to do the pm and his lot will fiddle the whole thing so they get a no vote" even if the result is a No? | |||
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"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident" I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%. | |||
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"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%." Tell that to the Labour party, I'm sure Ed Balls kept telling everyone in 2014 the uk was flat lining? Maybe that's why his fat ass got voted out of his seat in the election? | |||
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"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%. Tell that to the Labour party, I'm sure Ed Balls kept telling everyone in 2014 the uk was flat lining? Maybe that's why his fat ass got voted out of his seat in the election? " Maybe so, but your record with UKIP and facts has been far worse. They keep feeding you bullshit and you keep swallowing. You don't need to have a fat arse to not get elected - ask Nigel Farage how his fat arse is feeling after getting kicked by the voters of Thanet. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%. Tell that to the Labour party, I'm sure Ed Balls kept telling everyone in 2014 the uk was flat lining? Maybe that's why his fat ass got voted out of his seat in the election? Maybe so, but your record with UKIP and facts has been far worse. They keep feeding you bullshit and you keep swallowing. You don't need to have a fat arse to not get elected - ask Nigel Farage how his fat arse is feeling after getting kicked by the voters of Thanet." Yet again you seem to be in denial about said facts. Earlier in the thread you said only Greece and Finland are in recession and the others in the EU are not. Are you suffering from Ed Balls syndrome?
If you call flat lining, or as sexy bum put it stagnating out of recession good luck to you and the rest of the EU, it's hardly booming now is it.
Farage is still an MEP, and I may add considerably slimmer than Ed Balls. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%. Tell that to the Labour party, I'm sure Ed Balls kept telling everyone in 2014 the uk was flat lining? Maybe that's why his fat ass got voted out of his seat in the election? Maybe so, but your record with UKIP and facts has been far worse. They keep feeding you bullshit and you keep swallowing. You don't need to have a fat arse to not get elected - ask Nigel Farage how his fat arse is feeling after getting kicked by the voters of Thanet. Yet again you seem to be in denial about said facts. Earlier in the thread you said only Greece and Finland are in recession and the others in the EU are not. Are you suffering from Ed Balls syndrome?
If you call flat lining, or as sexy bum put it stagnating out of recession good luck to you and the rest of the EU, it's hardly booming now is it.
Farage is still an MEP, and I may add considerably slimmer than Ed Balls. "Nope I'm not in denial I just checked the facts, something that you (and SB) should try every now and again. Your words were that most EU countries are still in recession. As much as you try to bluster about it, that's wrong. Slimmer or not, Farage has still got a Thanet shaped boot print on his arse. | |||
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"I agree with Tony Benn's opinion on this. It is such an undemocratic institution that it is comparable only to the old Kremlin. Out." cant blame europe for that...other countries vote at least once a year for constitutional changes to ratify or reject european threaties etc....i cant how my times i voted in european referendums.....how many times have britains voted... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%. Tell that to the Labour party, I'm sure Ed Balls kept telling everyone in 2014 the uk was flat lining? Maybe that's why his fat ass got voted out of his seat in the election? Maybe so, but your record with UKIP and facts has been far worse. They keep feeding you bullshit and you keep swallowing. You don't need to have a fat arse to not get elected - ask Nigel Farage how his fat arse is feeling after getting kicked by the voters of Thanet. Yet again you seem to be in denial about said facts. Earlier in the thread you said only Greece and Finland are in recession and the others in the EU are not. Are you suffering from Ed Balls syndrome?
If you call flat lining, or as sexy bum put it stagnating out of recession good luck to you and the rest of the EU, it's hardly booming now is it.
Farage is still an MEP, and I may add considerably slimmer than Ed Balls.
Nope I'm not in denial I just checked the facts, something that you (and SB) should try every now and again. Your words were that most EU countries are still in recession. As much as you try to bluster about it, that's wrong.
Slimmer or not, Farage has still got a Thanet shaped boot print on his arse.". I didn't say there were in recession I said they were in stagnation, ie there gdp growth is less than their debt growth. I quoted the figure of 0.3% which is quoted by standard and poors annual report!. As for farage... He didn't exactly get his arse kicked, he came very close to winning despite the entire political establishment throwing everything they had at him!. Again that proves my point that a right wing philosophy is easier to sell to the general public! I've always said about the eu it will fail unless it's run as one country, I stand by that and quite frankly I would vote for that but just not this current hotch potch of a crap system were running now! | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? No, that's false. The human rights act is a domestic application of the European convention on human rights, a document created by the council of Europe, separate from the EU. Scrapping the HRA is just another government ploy to rob judges of their human rights protection role, but it's being discussed as though it's some sort of act of liberation from Europe. And also, it frustrates me that people rely on the short term financial implications to justify leaving the EU, seemingly ignoring the fact that we should, as a species really, be working towards integration in the long term. " May I (m) defer from this one. As I speak fluent French/German and Italian I understand more what is stated int EU documents as the first 2 languages of all EU statements/laws/regulations are German and French. The main aim of the existing EU are: a) protect the export power of Germany (ask any Swiss/Italian/Austrian mid sized export company and they will confirm that) b) protect the French and German farmers to enable them to produce more waste for more EU subventions. The aim of the EU is not what Winston Churchill wrote in his ideas of 1948 "A Commonwealth of European Nations", but it is a club with 1st class members, 2nd class and then 3rd class (Greece/Ireland/UK/Malta/Cyprus). Belgium lives off the EU (38% of GDP is generated off the EU in Belgium), Germany has other interests and the newer countries just want funding which will never ever will be repaid. What Britain wants or wishes they in Brussles do not care but they wish the money flow from Britain to shore up their funding. Ask families in Italy what they think about the EU..every 10th family in Italy live under the poverty line and with poverty line that is 2 hot meals a week. That is thanks to the EU and their demands for a balanced budget. Ask Malta how they are dealing with the flood of boat people. Ask Greece how many OAP's have taken the road of suicide to "escape" as they can not even afford bread... Or how many people have left Portugal for a better life in Brazil (400'000 till today and all better educated) Is this the Europe we want Britain in? An unfair Europe of 1st and 2nd class citizens? Britain is and was a country where all were welcome and Human Rights were not needed... But the now existing EU Human Rights are being misused to the point where people are getting fed up and angry... So think again - think what is better ? If we go then others will go - See Italy and Grillo | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%. Tell that to the Labour party, I'm sure Ed Balls kept telling everyone in 2014 the uk was flat lining? Maybe that's why his fat ass got voted out of his seat in the election? Maybe so, but your record with UKIP and facts has been far worse. They keep feeding you bullshit and you keep swallowing. You don't need to have a fat arse to not get elected - ask Nigel Farage how his fat arse is feeling after getting kicked by the voters of Thanet. Yet again you seem to be in denial about said facts. Earlier in the thread you said only Greece and Finland are in recession and the others in the EU are not. Are you suffering from Ed Balls syndrome?
If you call flat lining, or as sexy bum put it stagnating out of recession good luck to you and the rest of the EU, it's hardly booming now is it.
Farage is still an MEP, and I may add considerably slimmer than Ed Balls.
Nope I'm not in denial I just checked the facts, something that you (and SB) should try every now and again. Your words were that most EU countries are still in recession. As much as you try to bluster about it, that's wrong.
Slimmer or not, Farage has still got a Thanet shaped boot print on his arse..
I didn't say there were in recession I said they were in stagnation, ie there gdp growth is less than their debt growth.
I quoted the figure of 0.3% which is quoted by standard and poors annual report!.
As for farage... He didn't exactly get his arse kicked, he came very close to winning despite the entire political establishment throwing everything they had at him!.
Again that proves my point that a right wing philosophy is easier to sell to the general public!
I've always said about the eu it will fail unless it's run as one country, I stand by that and quite frankly I would vote for that but just not this current hotch potch of a crap system were running now!"You should try using eurostat data it goes up to the first quarter of this year. Gdp growth for Europe as a whole rose 1.9% in the first quarter and .65 and .87% in the pre jobs two quarters. You have to go back to the autumn of 2013 to find the 0.3% figure. That probably lines up with you using their September 2013 report. Like I said it'd be good if you used up to date data not stuff that's 2 years out of date. Incidentally the contents of the s&p report said "the latest data are looking up". It's strange how you didn't mention that - even though 2 years out of date. As for farage, 68% of the voters gave him the boot in Thanet south. No wonder he insincerely resigned. | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? No, that's false. The human rights act is a domestic application of the European convention on human rights, a document created by the council of Europe, separate from the EU. Scrapping the HRA is just another government ploy to rob judges of their human rights protection role, but it's being discussed as though it's some sort of act of liberation from Europe. And also, it frustrates me that people rely on the short term financial implications to justify leaving the EU, seemingly ignoring the fact that we should, as a species really, be working towards integration in the long term. May I (m) defer from this one. As I speak fluent French/German and Italian I understand more what is stated int EU documents as the first 2 languages of all EU statements/laws/regulations are German and French. The main aim of the existing EU are: a) protect the export power of Germany (ask any Swiss/Italian/Austrian mid sized export company and they will confirm that) b) protect the French and German farmers to enable them to produce more waste for more EU subventions. The aim of the EU is not what Winston Churchill wrote in his ideas of 1948 "A Commonwealth of European Nations", but it is a club with 1st class members, 2nd class and then 3rd class (Greece/Ireland/UK/Malta/Cyprus). Belgium lives off the EU (38% of GDP is generated off the EU in Belgium), Germany has other interests and the newer countries just want funding which will never ever will be repaid. What Britain wants or wishes they in Brussles do not care but they wish the money flow from Britain to shore up their funding. Ask families in Italy what they think about the EU..every 10th family in Italy live under the poverty line and with poverty line that is 2 hot meals a week. That is thanks to the EU and their demands for a balanced budget. Ask Malta how they are dealing with the flood of boat people. Ask Greece how many OAP's have taken the road of suicide to "escape" as they can not even afford bread... Or how many people have left Portugal for a better life in Brazil (400'000 till today and all better educated) Is this the Europe we want Britain in? An unfair Europe of 1st and 2nd class citizens? Britain is and was a country where all were welcome and Human Rights were not needed... But the now existing EU Human Rights are being misused to the point where people are getting fed up and angry... So think again - think what is better ? If we go then others will go - See Italy and Grillo " Good post
Personally I don't see a British exit as an end in itself, just a stepping stone to an ultimate goal.
While I'm fully in favour of a European commonwealth (for want of a better word) the EU in its current form is (as you point out) a disaster not only for Britain but for a sizeable chunk of its membership.
If a British exit can encourage other country's to leave then eventually the whole rotten edifice will collapse and hopefully something akin to the old "Common Market" will rise from the ashes. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? No, that's false. The human rights act is a domestic application of the European convention on human rights, a document created by the council of Europe, separate from the EU. Scrapping the HRA is just another government ploy to rob judges of their human rights protection role, but it's being discussed as though it's some sort of act of liberation from Europe. And also, it frustrates me that people rely on the short term financial implications to justify leaving the EU, seemingly ignoring the fact that we should, as a species really, be working towards integration in the long term. May I (m) defer from this one. As I speak fluent French/German and Italian I understand more what is stated int EU documents as the first 2 languages of all EU statements/laws/regulations are German and French. The main aim of the existing EU are: a) protect the export power of Germany (ask any Swiss/Italian/Austrian mid sized export company and they will confirm that) b) protect the French and German farmers to enable them to produce more waste for more EU subventions. The aim of the EU is not what Winston Churchill wrote in his ideas of 1948 "A Commonwealth of European Nations", but it is a club with 1st class members, 2nd class and then 3rd class (Greece/Ireland/UK/Malta/Cyprus). Belgium lives off the EU (38% of GDP is generated off the EU in Belgium), Germany has other interests and the newer countries just want funding which will never ever will be repaid. What Britain wants or wishes they in Brussles do not care but they wish the money flow from Britain to shore up their funding. Ask families in Italy what they think about the EU..every 10th family in Italy live under the poverty line and with poverty line that is 2 hot meals a week. That is thanks to the EU and their demands for a balanced budget. Ask Malta how they are dealing with the flood of boat people. Ask Greece how many OAP's have taken the road of suicide to "escape" as they can not even afford bread... Or how many people have left Portugal for a better life in Brazil (400'000 till today and all better educated) Is this the Europe we want Britain in? An unfair Europe of 1st and 2nd class citizens? Britain is and was a country where all were welcome and Human Rights were not needed... But the now existing EU Human Rights are being misused to the point where people are getting fed up and angry... So think again - think what is better ? If we go then others will go - See Italy and Grillo Good post
Personally I don't see a British exit as an end in itself, just a stepping stone to an ultimate goal.
While I'm fully in favour of a European commonwealth (for want of a better word) the EU in its current form is (as you point out) a disaster not only for Britain but for a sizeable chunk of its membership.
If a British exit can encourage other country's to leave then eventually the whole rotten edifice will collapse and hopefully something akin to the old "Common Market" will rise from the ashes. "Plenty of Irish people are hoping thats what will happen. Get out of the EU if you can. Our lot are a bunch of treacherous liars.  | |||
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"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%. Tell that to the Labour party, I'm sure Ed Balls kept telling everyone in 2014 the uk was flat lining? Maybe that's why his fat ass got voted out of his seat in the election? Maybe so, but your record with UKIP and facts has been far worse. They keep feeding you bullshit and you keep swallowing. You don't need to have a fat arse to not get elected - ask Nigel Farage how his fat arse is feeling after getting kicked by the voters of Thanet. Yet again you seem to be in denial about said facts. Earlier in the thread you said only Greece and Finland are in recession and the others in the EU are not. Are you suffering from Ed Balls syndrome?
If you call flat lining, or as sexy bum put it stagnating out of recession good luck to you and the rest of the EU, it's hardly booming now is it.
Farage is still an MEP, and I may add considerably slimmer than Ed Balls.
Nope I'm not in denial I just checked the facts, something that you (and SB) should try every now and again. Your words were that most EU countries are still in recession. As much as you try to bluster about it, that's wrong.
Slimmer or not, Farage has still got a Thanet shaped boot print on his arse..
I didn't say there were in recession I said they were in stagnation, ie there gdp growth is less than their debt growth.
I quoted the figure of 0.3% which is quoted by standard and poors annual report!.
As for farage... He didn't exactly get his arse kicked, he came very close to winning despite the entire political establishment throwing everything they had at him!.
Again that proves my point that a right wing philosophy is easier to sell to the general public!
I've always said about the eu it will fail unless it's run as one country, I stand by that and quite frankly I would vote for that but just not this current hotch potch of a crap system were running now!
You should try using eurostat data it goes up to the first quarter of this year. Gdp growth for Europe as a whole rose 1.9% in the first quarter and .65 and .87% in the pre jobs two quarters. You have to go back to the autumn of 2013 to find the 0.3% figure. That probably lines up with you using their September 2013 report. Like I said it'd be good if you used up to date data not stuff that's 2 years out of date.
Incidentally the contents of the s&p report said "the latest data are looking up". It's strange how you didn't mention that - even though 2 years out of date.
As for farage, 68% of the voters gave him the boot in Thanet south.
No wonder he insincerely resigned.". Well I notice you didn't point out that the euro zone was lower than the 1.7 growth of the EU zone with only 1.3% growth and I notice you didn't point out that most of that growth is down to the ecb,s 1.1 trillion euro QE programme and I'm suspecting if you had pointed that out you wouldn't have pointed out that their only buying German, Spanish, French, Belgium and Italian bonds... Fuck you Greece Holland, Ireland, Portugal, Finland etc etc... Were all in it together apparently, or maybe not! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%. Tell that to the Labour party, I'm sure Ed Balls kept telling everyone in 2014 the uk was flat lining? Maybe that's why his fat ass got voted out of his seat in the election? Maybe so, but your record with UKIP and facts has been far worse. They keep feeding you bullshit and you keep swallowing. You don't need to have a fat arse to not get elected - ask Nigel Farage how his fat arse is feeling after getting kicked by the voters of Thanet. Yet again you seem to be in denial about said facts. Earlier in the thread you said only Greece and Finland are in recession and the others in the EU are not. Are you suffering from Ed Balls syndrome?
If you call flat lining, or as sexy bum put it stagnating out of recession good luck to you and the rest of the EU, it's hardly booming now is it.
Farage is still an MEP, and I may add considerably slimmer than Ed Balls.
Nope I'm not in denial I just checked the facts, something that you (and SB) should try every now and again. Your words were that most EU countries are still in recession. As much as you try to bluster about it, that's wrong.
Slimmer or not, Farage has still got a Thanet shaped boot print on his arse..
I didn't say there were in recession I said they were in stagnation, ie there gdp growth is less than their debt growth.
I quoted the figure of 0.3% which is quoted by standard and poors annual report!.
As for farage... He didn't exactly get his arse kicked, he came very close to winning despite the entire political establishment throwing everything they had at him!.
Again that proves my point that a right wing philosophy is easier to sell to the general public!
I've always said about the eu it will fail unless it's run as one country, I stand by that and quite frankly I would vote for that but just not this current hotch potch of a crap system were running now!
You should try using eurostat data it goes up to the first quarter of this year. Gdp growth for Europe as a whole rose 1.9% in the first quarter and .65 and .87% in the pre jobs two quarters. You have to go back to the autumn of 2013 to find the 0.3% figure. That probably lines up with you using their September 2013 report. Like I said it'd be good if you used up to date data not stuff that's 2 years out of date.
Incidentally the contents of the s&p report said "the latest data are looking up". It's strange how you didn't mention that - even though 2 years out of date.
As for farage, 68% of the voters gave him the boot in Thanet south.
No wonder he insincerely resigned..
Well I notice you didn't point out that the euro zone was lower than the 1.7 growth of the EU zone with only 1.3% growth and I notice you didn't point out that most of that growth is down to the ecb,s 1.1 trillion euro QE programme and I'm suspecting if you had pointed that out you wouldn't have pointed out that their only buying German, Spanish, French, Belgium and Italian bonds... Fuck you Greece Holland, Ireland, Portugal, Finland etc etc... Were all in it together apparently, or maybe not!"It takes half a page of forum to get you to use up to date numbers. Thinking of all the random combinations you can throw together in a smoke screen isn't worth the effort. You did notice that 1.3% gdp growth is more than 4 times the two years out of date figure you quoted, didn't you? Anyway I think you'll find that they've already bought 33% of Greek bonds in as part of the recovery effort but they'll also be buying more from this month onwards. Also if you look at the ecb manual for qe you'll find that the amount bought in each country is split according to population and gdp across the eurozone and doesn't exclude or favour any one country. But it's more fun to be indignant than to look up the documents I guess | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%. Tell that to the Labour party, I'm sure Ed Balls kept telling everyone in 2014 the uk was flat lining? Maybe that's why his fat ass got voted out of his seat in the election? Maybe so, but your record with UKIP and facts has been far worse. They keep feeding you bullshit and you keep swallowing. You don't need to have a fat arse to not get elected - ask Nigel Farage how his fat arse is feeling after getting kicked by the voters of Thanet. Yet again you seem to be in denial about said facts. Earlier in the thread you said only Greece and Finland are in recession and the others in the EU are not. Are you suffering from Ed Balls syndrome?
If you call flat lining, or as sexy bum put it stagnating out of recession good luck to you and the rest of the EU, it's hardly booming now is it.
Farage is still an MEP, and I may add considerably slimmer than Ed Balls.
Nope I'm not in denial I just checked the facts, something that you (and SB) should try every now and again. Your words were that most EU countries are still in recession. As much as you try to bluster about it, that's wrong.
Slimmer or not, Farage has still got a Thanet shaped boot print on his arse..
I didn't say there were in recession I said they were in stagnation, ie there gdp growth is less than their debt growth.
I quoted the figure of 0.3% which is quoted by standard and poors annual report!.
As for farage... He didn't exactly get his arse kicked, he came very close to winning despite the entire political establishment throwing everything they had at him!.
Again that proves my point that a right wing philosophy is easier to sell to the general public!
I've always said about the eu it will fail unless it's run as one country, I stand by that and quite frankly I would vote for that but just not this current hotch potch of a crap system were running now!
You should try using eurostat data it goes up to the first quarter of this year. Gdp growth for Europe as a whole rose 1.9% in the first quarter and .65 and .87% in the pre jobs two quarters. You have to go back to the autumn of 2013 to find the 0.3% figure. That probably lines up with you using their September 2013 report. Like I said it'd be good if you used up to date data not stuff that's 2 years out of date.
Incidentally the contents of the s&p report said "the latest data are looking up". It's strange how you didn't mention that - even though 2 years out of date.
As for farage, 68% of the voters gave him the boot in Thanet south.
No wonder he insincerely resigned..
Well I notice you didn't point out that the euro zone was lower than the 1.7 growth of the EU zone with only 1.3% growth and I notice you didn't point out that most of that growth is down to the ecb,s 1.1 trillion euro QE programme and I'm suspecting if you had pointed that out you wouldn't have pointed out that their only buying German, Spanish, French, Belgium and Italian bonds... Fuck you Greece Holland, Ireland, Portugal, Finland etc etc... Were all in it together apparently, or maybe not!
It takes half a page of forum to get you to use up to date numbers. Thinking of all the random combinations you can throw together in a smoke screen isn't worth the effort. You did notice that 1.3% gdp growth is more than 4 times the two years out of date figure you quoted, didn't you?
Anyway I think you'll find that they've already bought 33% of Greek bonds in as part of the recovery effort but they'll also be buying more from this month onwards. Also if you look at the ecb manual for qe you'll find that the amount bought in each country is split according to population and gdp across the eurozone and doesn't exclude or favour any one country. But it's more fun to be indignant than to look up the documents I guess
". Yes your correct I used the 2013 figures by mistake but it's only 1 year out of date, you can't have an annual report for 2015 only for 2014! The ecb manual for QE is a guide as far as I was aware, and actual buying was a closely guarded secret but maybe you could look up how the 1.1 trillion was spent too save my indignants. According to the insider who Blomberg inter_iewed it was only those fives bonds they were buying!... Maybe he's wrong? | |||
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"Anyway I think you'll find that they've already bought 33% of Greek bonds in as part of the recovery effort but they'll also be buying more from this month onwards. Also if you look at the ecb manual for qe you'll find that the amount bought in each country is split according to population and gdp across the eurozone and doesn't exclude or favour any one country. But it's more fun to be indignant than to look up the documents I guess "I suspect it's the ecb buying the Greek bonds + then passing on, with a little sweetener. ' Either way, you've only got 2 options if you want to flog Greek bonds - either up the coupon rate, or drop the price for redemption only bonds. Either way, for Greece it's bad news cos they will get less back + pay more to borrow. Given their credit rating, no normal bank will touch their bonds. Why would you- in a market dominated by trusty German bonds? Too much risk. Possibly 1 year-if you know the ecb is right behind it + it offers good returns, but a 10/20 year bond - no way As for generally splitting the purchase of bonds across countries/populations - so not favoriting one country. maybe a small percentage of the issue is allocated - but beyond that - it's the market. But the bigger questions aren't really about Greece - it's about creating a United States of Europe. some want that, some don't | |||
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"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%. Tell that to the Labour party, I'm sure Ed Balls kept telling everyone in 2014 the uk was flat lining? Maybe that's why his fat ass got voted out of his seat in the election? Maybe so, but your record with UKIP and facts has been far worse. They keep feeding you bullshit and you keep swallowing. You don't need to have a fat arse to not get elected - ask Nigel Farage how his fat arse is feeling after getting kicked by the voters of Thanet. Yet again you seem to be in denial about said facts. Earlier in the thread you said only Greece and Finland are in recession and the others in the EU are not. Are you suffering from Ed Balls syndrome?
If you call flat lining, or as sexy bum put it stagnating out of recession good luck to you and the rest of the EU, it's hardly booming now is it.
Farage is still an MEP, and I may add considerably slimmer than Ed Balls.
Nope I'm not in denial I just checked the facts, something that you (and SB) should try every now and again. Your words were that most EU countries are still in recession. As much as you try to bluster about it, that's wrong.
Slimmer or not, Farage has still got a Thanet shaped boot print on his arse..
I didn't say there were in recession I said they were in stagnation, ie there gdp growth is less than their debt growth.
I quoted the figure of 0.3% which is quoted by standard and poors annual report!.
As for farage... He didn't exactly get his arse kicked, he came very close to winning despite the entire political establishment throwing everything they had at him!.
Again that proves my point that a right wing philosophy is easier to sell to the general public!
I've always said about the eu it will fail unless it's run as one country, I stand by that and quite frankly I would vote for that but just not this current hotch potch of a crap system were running now!
You should try using eurostat data it goes up to the first quarter of this year. Gdp growth for Europe as a whole rose 1.9% in the first quarter and .65 and .87% in the pre jobs two quarters. You have to go back to the autumn of 2013 to find the 0.3% figure. That probably lines up with you using their September 2013 report. Like I said it'd be good if you used up to date data not stuff that's 2 years out of date.
Incidentally the contents of the s&p report said "the latest data are looking up". It's strange how you didn't mention that - even though 2 years out of date.
As for farage, 68% of the voters gave him the boot in Thanet south.
No wonder he insincerely resigned..
Well I notice you didn't point out that the euro zone was lower than the 1.7 growth of the EU zone with only 1.3% growth and I notice you didn't point out that most of that growth is down to the ecb,s 1.1 trillion euro QE programme and I'm suspecting if you had pointed that out you wouldn't have pointed out that their only buying German, Spanish, French, Belgium and Italian bonds... Fuck you Greece Holland, Ireland, Portugal, Finland etc etc... Were all in it together apparently, or maybe not!
It takes half a page of forum to get you to use up to date numbers. Thinking of all the random combinations you can throw together in a smoke screen isn't worth the effort. You did notice that 1.3% gdp growth is more than 4 times the two years out of date figure you quoted, didn't you?
Anyway I think you'll find that they've already bought 33% of Greek bonds in as part of the recovery effort but they'll also be buying more from this month onwards. Also if you look at the ecb manual for qe you'll find that the amount bought in each country is split according to population and gdp across the eurozone and doesn't exclude or favour any one country. But it's more fun to be indignant than to look up the documents I guess
.
Yes your correct I used the 2013 figures by mistake but it's only
1 year out of date, you can't have an annual report for 2015 only for 2014!
The ecb manual for QE is a guide as far as I was aware, and actual buying was a closely guarded secret but maybe you could look up how the 1.1 trillion was spent too save my indignants.
According to the insider who Blomberg inter_iewed it was only those fives bonds they were buying!... Maybe he's wrong?"Maybe he is. Who knows? Certainly none of us. In fact who knows who he is or what he knows. The office cleaner could give an insiders _iew. The figures that s&p used are freely available on the eurostat site and go up to q1 2015 where available. No need to use misleadingly out of date data when the fresh stuff is there for you use misleadingly. Data provided in September 2013 is still 2 years out of date give or take a month not 1 year, | |||
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"Only greek bonds excluded as they are in bailout negotiations and need direct ecb support for Greek banks. QE is way to fight deflation that central banks outside the Euro zone use so as an argument for leaving the EU it is illogical as the Bank of England have had QE at a greater level for longer. The argument for and against QE is surely for another thread. Maybe on stories and fantasy forum ". QE causes deflation even the ecb have admitted it!. Ecb funding for Greeks banks has not come through QE it's been lent and is fully backed by Greek assets that have been exchanged!. QE is not a sign that all is well in your economy and the fact that the eurozone is still having to do it to create growth is problematic at best. The EU and the euro is not exactly loved by other eu countries, it's not just little Englanders as the pro camp would have you believing! | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in" Despite that in Greece because of the existence of the EU there is now a growing support for neo nazi groups (and you say some of your family were slaughtered in the Holocaust). Rise of Front national in France at the last EU elections too. Riots on the streets in Greece, the EU is hardly a model for peace now is it. | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in Despite that in Greece because of the existence of the EU there is now a growing support for neo nazi groups (and you say some of your family were slaughtered in the Holocaust). Rise of Front national in France at the last EU elections too. Riots on the streets in Greece, the EU is hardly a model for peace now is it." Wasn't Front National happy to partner with UKIP ? | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in Despite that in Greece because of the existence of the EU there is now a growing support for neo nazi groups (and you say some of your family were slaughtered in the Holocaust). Rise of Front national in France at the last EU elections too. Riots on the streets in Greece, the EU is hardly a model for peace now is it." Compared with what? Syria, Turkey, Israel, Tunisia, Libya? I did not say the EU was the perfect model of peace. I said that because the countries (as opposed to individuals and groups) are so closely entwined that war is less likely and that this has led to the longest period of peace. It wasnt that some of my father's family was slaughtered in the Holocaust. It every single one except my father. So peace is important to me and the EU has helped deliver that | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in Despite that in Greece because of the existence of the EU there is now a growing support for neo nazi groups (and you say some of your family were slaughtered in the Holocaust). Rise of Front national in France at the last EU elections too. Riots on the streets in Greece, the EU is hardly a model for peace now is it. Wasn't Front National happy to partner with UKIP ?" No ukip rejected any kind of deal with them in the EU so not sure where you got that from? | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in Despite that in Greece because of the existence of the EU there is now a growing support for neo nazi groups (and you say some of your family were slaughtered in the Holocaust). Rise of Front national in France at the last EU elections too. Riots on the streets in Greece, the EU is hardly a model for peace now is it. Compared with what? Syria, Turkey, Israel, Tunisia, Libya? I did not say the EU was the perfect model of peace. I said that because the countries (as opposed to individuals and groups) are so closely entwined that war is less likely and that this has led to the longest period of peace. It wasnt that some of my father's family was slaughtered in the Holocaust. It every single one except my father. So peace is important to me and the EU has helped deliver that" How long for though in the current climate of things? Other than whats been said about Greece and France you have the EU poking Russia with its support for the coup in Ukraine. All those people there waving their little EU flags about, how long before the Ukraine joins the EU and how will Russia react to that? Especially with voices coming from the EU that they would like a European army. Turkey also looks set to join the EU, what a barrel of laughs that will be. No to me the existence of the EU is making conflict in Europe a more likely prospect at some stage in the near future. | |||
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"With regards to Greece. I remember Greece pre EU. Makarios supported EOKA / Enosis. I remember the assasinations, Grivas, Samson and the Generals. Greece within the EU is a damned sight more peaceful than it was outside. Greece is no longer funding the terrorists who killed British troops." . Didn't really help with Yugoslavia though did it!. 1945-1972... Was pretty peaceful in Europe despite the massive divide from capitalism to communism. If trade makes peace how come China and Japan are as close to war as they've ever been, the Japanese are pretty much rearming the entire country through fear of their mighty neighbour despite doing massive trade with China. There's more wars caused through trade than through religion | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in Despite that in Greece because of the existence of the EU there is now a growing support for neo nazi groups (and you say some of your family were slaughtered in the Holocaust). Rise of Front national in France at the last EU elections too. Riots on the streets in Greece, the EU is hardly a model for peace now is it. Wasn't Front National happy to partner with UKIP ? No ukip rejected any kind of deal with them in the EU so not sure where you got that from? " That's a relief, because it would be awful if any of Nigel's mates in the Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy group turned out to be ex- Front Nationale. That is apart from Joelle Bergeron. Also it'd be awful if one of the members of the EFDD group's "bureau" - the bit that organises their political activity - is a member of a far right Polish party the leader of which is a holocaust denier and thinks rape is just about OK. Best not ask his _iews on black people either. Oh that would Robart Iwaskiewicz. Of course they only dragged him in so that EFDD had representatives from enough countries to get UKIP MEP's noses in another trough of eurodosh. So there's no point in mentioning the far right Swedish Democrats party, or the Danish people's party or the National front for Salvation of Bulgaria. Yep UKIP in Europe is steering well clear of far right nasties. | |||
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"With regards to Greece. I remember Greece pre EU. Makarios supported EOKA / Enosis. I remember the assasinations, Grivas, Samson and the Generals. Greece within the EU is a damned sight more peaceful than it was outside. Greece is no longer funding the terrorists who killed British troops.. Didn't really help with Yugoslavia though did it!. 1945-1972... Was pretty peaceful in Europe despite the massive divide from capitalism to communism. If trade makes peace how come China and Japan are as close to war as they've ever been, the Japanese are pretty much rearming the entire country through fear of their mighty neighbour despite doing massive trade with China. There's more wars caused through trade than through religion" So it was the EU's fault that the Soviet Bloc collapsed and Yugoslavia disintegrated? I'd love to hear how the background reasoning behind that one . Could we also blame those pesky faceless eurocrats for the Korean and Vietnam wars.. | |||
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"The EU is bankrupt 0.3 growth overall Mostly from the UK and Germany Italy and France are stagnant, Holland is stagnant Spain and Portugal are the next Greece! The US is stagnant There is no economic miracle to rescue us from anywhere. No your not going to sell shit to China or India or any other emerging market.... It's a long slow decline into the third world for us, with a few asset bubble inflation's in between, while they finally rip whatever intrinsic wealth is left from UK PLC. Greece didn't die on its own sword, it was a leverage buy out. They feed you with debt and then they strip you of wealth to feed that debt repayment. The 0.1% don't keep getting richer by accident I don't know where you get your figures but according to Eurostat EU growth rate in real terms for 2014 was 1.3%, for the UK 3.0% and the US 2.4%." The original figures are FCA and FMA so don't argue. Anyone watch 'house of lies' and get that reference? | |||
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"With regards to Greece. I remember Greece pre EU. Makarios supported EOKA / Enosis. I remember the assasinations, Grivas, Samson and the Generals. Greece within the EU is a damned sight more peaceful than it was outside. Greece is no longer funding the terrorists who killed British troops.. Didn't really help with Yugoslavia though did it!. 1945-1972... Was pretty peaceful in Europe despite the massive divide from capitalism to communism. If trade makes peace how come China and Japan are as close to war as they've ever been, the Japanese are pretty much rearming the entire country through fear of their mighty neighbour despite doing massive trade with China. There's more wars caused through trade than through religion So it was the EU's fault that the Soviet Bloc collapsed and Yugoslavia disintegrated? I'd love to hear how the background reasoning behind that one . Could we also blame those pesky faceless eurocrats for the Korean and Vietnam wars.." . You keep twisting things, and then pulling people up for twisting things lol. No I was simply pointing out that having an eu trading block might be a link in peaceful times but it's not "why" we've had peaceful times. Europe has not been entirely peaceful during the eu lifespan! I really have no idea why you've dragged Korea or Vietnam into, they were both wars created by the west against the communists! If you want a lesson from Yugoslavia then it's that you can't force people together and if you do through dictatorship like that then eventually it will break apart with gruesome and serious repercussions. | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in Despite that in Greece because of the existence of the EU there is now a growing support for neo nazi groups (and you say some of your family were slaughtered in the Holocaust). Rise of Front national in France at the last EU elections too. Riots on the streets in Greece, the EU is hardly a model for peace now is it. Wasn't Front National happy to partner with UKIP ? No ukip rejected any kind of deal with them in the EU so not sure where you got that from? That's a relief, because it would be awful if any of Nigel's mates in the Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy group turned out to be ex- Front Nationale. That is apart from Joelle Bergeron. Also it'd be awful if one of the members of the EFDD group's "bureau" - the bit that organises their political activity - is a member of a far right Polish party the leader of which is a holocaust denier and thinks rape is just about OK. Best not ask his _iews on black people either. Oh that would Robart Iwaskiewicz. Of course they only dragged him in so that EFDD had representatives from enough countries to get UKIP MEP's noses in another trough of eurodosh. So there's no point in mentioning the far right Swedish Democrats party, or the Danish people's party or the National front for Salvation of Bulgaria. Yep UKIP in Europe is steering well clear of far right nasties." Yes that's how the EU works unfortunately you have to form alliances with unsavoury characters sometimes, its a means to an end to ultimately get Britain out of the EU so we don't have to deal with any of them in the long run. While you're enlightenong everyone with your revelations though you could also ask the green party how they teamed up with some pedo's in the EU, no doubt Labour and the tories have also teamed up with some undesirables in the EU in the past too but don't let that get in the way of your Ukip rants. And if people don't like the way the EU works they can always vote to leave when we have our referendum. | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in Despite that in Greece because of the existence of the EU there is now a growing support for neo nazi groups (and you say some of your family were slaughtered in the Holocaust). Rise of Front national in France at the last EU elections too. Riots on the streets in Greece, the EU is hardly a model for peace now is it. Wasn't Front National happy to partner with UKIP ? No ukip rejected any kind of deal with them in the EU so not sure where you got that from? That's a relief, because it would be awful if any of Nigel's mates in the Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy group turned out to be ex- Front Nationale. That is apart from Joelle Bergeron. Also it'd be awful if one of the members of the EFDD group's "bureau" - the bit that organises their political activity - is a member of a far right Polish party the leader of which is a holocaust denier and thinks rape is just about OK. Best not ask his _iews on black people either. Oh that would Robart Iwaskiewicz. Of course they only dragged him in so that EFDD had representatives from enough countries to get UKIP MEP's noses in another trough of eurodosh. So there's no point in mentioning the far right Swedish Democrats party, or the Danish people's party or the National front for Salvation of Bulgaria. Yep UKIP in Europe is steering well clear of far right nasties. Yes that's how the EU works unfortunately you have to form alliances with unsavoury characters sometimes, its a means to an end to ultimately get Britain out of the EU so we don't have to deal with any of them in the long run. While you're enlightenong everyone with your revelations though you could also ask the green party how they teamed up with some pedo's in the EU, no doubt Labour and the tories have also teamed up with some undesirables in the EU in the past too but don't let that get in the way of your Ukip rants. And if people don't like the way the EU works they can always vote to leave when we have our referendum. " I'm concerned with UKIP lies, I'll leave you to carry out your party duty to out the other parties though I hope the evidence you have is a lot more solid than the usual rubbish. You just tried to give the impression that UKIP had got rid of that sort of partner by saying they had no links with the French Front Nationale. That was wrong and the old smoke screen trick doesn't work. You were the one denying the links but it's easy enough to find out that UKIP has crawled into bed with not one, not two, but half a dozen far right parties. I was almost in tears at the poor dears being forced to form alliances with unsavoury characters because 'that's how the EU works'. Poor old UKIP, nobody will form an alliance with them except the right wing nutters and those nasty EU people are making them do it. Thanks for clearing that up. What a joke. Still in one move you went from denying they had those links to saying they were forced to have them. Time for UKIP head office to give you a slightly more credible story isn't it? | |||
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" I'm concerned with UKIP lies, I'll leave you to carry out your party duty to out the other parties though I hope the evidence you have is a lot more solid than the usual rubbish. You just tried to give the impression that UKIP had got rid of that sort of partner by saying they had no links with the French Front Nationale. That was wrong and the old smoke screen trick doesn't work. You were the one denying the links but it's easy enough to find out that UKIP has crawled into bed with not one, not two, but half a dozen far right parties. I was almost in tears at the poor dears being forced to form alliances with unsavoury characters because 'that's how the EU works'. Poor old UKIP, nobody will form an alliance with them except the right wing nutters and those nasty EU people are making them do it. Thanks for clearing that up. What a joke. Still in one move you went from denying they had those links to saying they were forced to have them. Time for UKIP head office to give you a slightly more credible story isn't it? "You should practise law - you're rather good | |||
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"With regards to Greece. I remember Greece pre EU. Makarios supported EOKA / Enosis. I remember the assasinations, Grivas, Samson and the Generals. Greece within the EU is a damned sight more peaceful than it was outside. Greece is no longer funding the terrorists who killed British troops.. Didn't really help with Yugoslavia though did it!. 1945-1972... Was pretty peaceful in Europe despite the massive divide from capitalism to communism. If trade makes peace how come China and Japan are as close to war as they've ever been, the Japanese are pretty much rearming the entire country through fear of their mighty neighbour despite doing massive trade with China. There's more wars caused through trade than through religion So it was the EU's fault that the Soviet Bloc collapsed and Yugoslavia disintegrated? I'd love to hear how the background reasoning behind that one . Could we also blame those pesky faceless eurocrats for the Korean and Vietnam wars... You keep twisting things, and then pulling people up for twisting things lol. No I was simply pointing out that having an eu trading block might be a link in peaceful times but it's not "why" we've had peaceful times. Europe has not been entirely peaceful during the eu lifespan! I really have no idea why you've dragged Korea or Vietnam into, they were both wars created by the west against the communists! If you want a lesson from Yugoslavia then it's that you can't force people together and if you do through dictatorship like that then eventually it will break apart with gruesome and serious repercussions." I didn't really twist anything, was just curious about how the EU got the blame for the break up of Yugoslavia? Otherwise, given the context, couldn't see why you mentioned Yugoslavia. | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in Despite that in Greece because of the existence of the EU there is now a growing support for neo nazi groups (and you say some of your family were slaughtered in the Holocaust). Rise of Front national in France at the last EU elections too. Riots on the streets in Greece, the EU is hardly a model for peace now is it. Wasn't Front National happy to partner with UKIP ? No ukip rejected any kind of deal with them in the EU so not sure where you got that from? That's a relief, because it would be awful if any of Nigel's mates in the Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy group turned out to be ex- Front Nationale. That is apart from Joelle Bergeron. Also it'd be awful if one of the members of the EFDD group's "bureau" - the bit that organises their political activity - is a member of a far right Polish party the leader of which is a holocaust denier and thinks rape is just about OK. Best not ask his _iews on black people either. Oh that would Robart Iwaskiewicz. Of course they only dragged him in so that EFDD had representatives from enough countries to get UKIP MEP's noses in another trough of eurodosh. So there's no point in mentioning the far right Swedish Democrats party, or the Danish people's party or the National front for Salvation of Bulgaria. Yep UKIP in Europe is steering well clear of far right nasties. Yes that's how the EU works unfortunately you have to form alliances with unsavoury characters sometimes, its a means to an end to ultimately get Britain out of the EU so we don't have to deal with any of them in the long run. While you're enlightenong everyone with your revelations though you could also ask the green party how they teamed up with some pedo's in the EU, no doubt Labour and the tories have also teamed up with some undesirables in the EU in the past too but don't let that get in the way of your Ukip rants. And if people don't like the way the EU works they can always vote to leave when we have our referendum. I'm concerned with UKIP lies, I'll leave you to carry out your party duty to out the other parties though I hope the evidence you have is a lot more solid than the usual rubbish. You just tried to give the impression that UKIP had got rid of that sort of partner by saying they had no links with the French Front Nationale. That was wrong and the old smoke screen trick doesn't work. You were the one denying the links but it's easy enough to find out that UKIP has crawled into bed with not one, not two, but half a dozen far right parties. I was almost in tears at the poor dears being forced to form alliances with unsavoury characters because 'that's how the EU works'. Poor old UKIP, nobody will form an alliance with them except the right wing nutters and those nasty EU people are making them do it. Thanks for clearing that up. What a joke. Still in one move you went from denying they had those links to saying they were forced to have them. Time for UKIP head office to give you a slightly more credible story isn't it? "As sexy bum said you have a habit of twisting things, you've got form for it on several political threads on here in the past. The ECHR thread from a few moths ago was perfect example where you tried to put words in people's mouths when they had said no such thing, pulled you up on it and you flat denied it even though I quoted you, Lmao.
What a joke!
What I said is true, ukip has not made any deal with front national of France you said it yourself in your comment, ex member Joelle Bergeron so that's not a deal with front national is it. Yes you are spot on with the other ones you quoted but ukip has not made any deal with front national of France so let's get that fact straight shall we.
If people want to know of the green parties links to paedophile groups in the EU then they only have to Google it, it's hardly rocket science to find out the facts. I don't have a problem with who forms an alliance with who in the EU. My preference would be for Britain to leave the EU so it would then no longer be a concern to any of us in britain what any of the various parties in the EU do. We can live our lives outside of their undemocratic corrupt nonsense. | |||
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" I'm concerned with UKIP lies, I'll leave you to carry out your party duty to out the other parties though I hope the evidence you have is a lot more solid than the usual rubbish. You just tried to give the impression that UKIP had got rid of that sort of partner by saying they had no links with the French Front Nationale. That was wrong and the old smoke screen trick doesn't work. You were the one denying the links but it's easy enough to find out that UKIP has crawled into bed with not one, not two, but half a dozen far right parties. I was almost in tears at the poor dears being forced to form alliances with unsavoury characters because 'that's how the EU works'. Poor old UKIP, nobody will form an alliance with them except the right wing nutters and those nasty EU people are making them do it. Thanks for clearing that up. What a joke. Still in one move you went from denying they had those links to saying they were forced to have them. Time for UKIP head office to give you a slightly more credible story isn't it?
You should practise law - you're rather good"Yes he's good at twisting things ill give him that. | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm. Reasons to leave the EU. ... 1. More free trade with the rest of the world outside of the restrictions of the EU. 2. Cut EU business red tape which will encourage more investment into Britain. 3. Save over 50 million per day in Eu membership fees. 4. Even save billions when the EU hits us with one off bills like they did last November. 5. Take back control of our borders, which we can't control properly while we are in the EU. 6. An end to closer political union with the rest of Europe whose ultimate goal is a united states of Europe. 7. No more nonsensical EU laws being forced on us such as the recent one involving hoovers ( really you couldn't make it up.)
8. No more having to make EU carbon reduction targets and green levies which push up household bills. Utterly pointless unless tackled on a worldwide level.
9. Leave the ECHR, so we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life and stop prisoners getting the right to vote.
10. Take back control of our fishing industry which has been decimated by ridiculous EU fishing rules and quotas.
11. No more threats from the EU to impose a financial transactions tax on the city of London.
We could end up better off economically if we leave the EU. The British public are pretty sensible when it comes to voting, thank god they rejected that lunatic called Ed Miliband. ". Excellent post . All very good well thought out points .  | |||
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" Yes he's good at twisting things ill give him that. " To be honest... All sides of the political spectrum seem to be fairly adept at twisting 'facts'. The successful ones are just that bit better...or they should louder, and for longer. Humanity....fills me with despair sometimes. | |||
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" Yes he's good at twisting things ill give him that. To be honest... All sides of the political spectrum seem to be fairly adept at twisting 'facts'. The successful ones are just that bit better...or they should louder, and for longer. Humanity....fills me with despair sometimes." All I am saying on this is, stay at home people, ill people, people in need of benefits etc... youll (maybe me in the future) will be living in hell, squalor. Look at the way the Government is now... if Mr Cameron and his Eton chums had a FREE REIGN completely on this country it will be a living nightmare for all us ordinary people. Garentee that for sure! Its a horrible thought this government being able to do as they please with the EU influence. | |||
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" I'm concerned with UKIP lies, I'll leave you to carry out your party duty to out the other parties though I hope the evidence you have is a lot more solid than the usual rubbish. You just tried to give the impression that UKIP had got rid of that sort of partner by saying they had no links with the French Front Nationale. That was wrong and the old smoke screen trick doesn't work. You were the one denying the links but it's easy enough to find out that UKIP has crawled into bed with not one, not two, but half a dozen far right parties. I was almost in tears at the poor dears being forced to form alliances with unsavoury characters because 'that's how the EU works'. Poor old UKIP, nobody will form an alliance with them except the right wing nutters and those nasty EU people are making them do it. Thanks for clearing that up. What a joke. Still in one move you went from denying they had those links to saying they were forced to have them. Time for UKIP head office to give you a slightly more credible story isn't it?
You should practise law - you're rather good
Yes he's good at twisting things ill give him that. "That's rich from you. You should try using the truth occasionally instead of the lies ukip head office feeds you. | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in Despite that in Greece because of the existence of the EU there is now a growing support for neo nazi groups (and you say some of your family were slaughtered in the Holocaust). Rise of Front national in France at the last EU elections too. Riots on the streets in Greece, the EU is hardly a model for peace now is it. Wasn't Front National happy to partner with UKIP ? No ukip rejected any kind of deal with them in the EU so not sure where you got that from? That's a relief, because it would be awful if any of Nigel's mates in the Europe of Freedom and Direct Democracy group turned out to be ex- Front Nationale. That is apart from Joelle Bergeron. Also it'd be awful if one of the members of the EFDD group's "bureau" - the bit that organises their political activity - is a member of a far right Polish party the leader of which is a holocaust denier and thinks rape is just about OK. Best not ask his _iews on black people either. Oh that would Robart Iwaskiewicz. Of course they only dragged him in so that EFDD had representatives from enough countries to get UKIP MEP's noses in another trough of eurodosh. So there's no point in mentioning the far right Swedish Democrats party, or the Danish people's party or the National front for Salvation of Bulgaria. Yep UKIP in Europe is steering well clear of far right nasties. Yes that's how the EU works unfortunately you have to form alliances with unsavoury characters sometimes, its a means to an end to ultimately get Britain out of the EU so we don't have to deal with any of them in the long run. While you're enlightenong everyone with your revelations though you could also ask the green party how they teamed up with some pedo's in the EU, no doubt Labour and the tories have also teamed up with some undesirables in the EU in the past too but don't let that get in the way of your Ukip rants. And if people don't like the way the EU works they can always vote to leave when we have our referendum. I'm concerned with UKIP lies, I'll leave you to carry out your party duty to out the other parties though I hope the evidence you have is a lot more solid than the usual rubbish. You just tried to give the impression that UKIP had got rid of that sort of partner by saying they had no links with the French Front Nationale. That was wrong and the old smoke screen trick doesn't work. You were the one denying the links but it's easy enough to find out that UKIP has crawled into bed with not one, not two, but half a dozen far right parties. I was almost in tears at the poor dears being forced to form alliances with unsavoury characters because 'that's how the EU works'. Poor old UKIP, nobody will form an alliance with them except the right wing nutters and those nasty EU people are making them do it. Thanks for clearing that up. What a joke. Still in one move you went from denying they had those links to saying they were forced to have them. Time for UKIP head office to give you a slightly more credible story isn't it?
As sexy bum said you have a habit of twisting things, you've got form for it on several political threads on here in the past. The ECHR thread from a few moths ago was perfect example where you tried to put words in people's mouths when they had said no such thing, pulled you up on it and you flat denied it even though I quoted you, Lmao.
What a joke!
What I said is true, ukip has not made any deal with front national of France you said it yourself in your comment, ex member Joelle Bergeron so that's not a deal with front national is it. Yes you are spot on with the other ones you quoted but ukip has not made any deal with front national of France so let's get that fact straight shall we.
If people want to know of the green parties links to paedophile groups in the EU then they only have to Google it, it's hardly rocket science to find out the facts. I don't have a problem with who forms an alliance with who in the EU. My preference would be for Britain to leave the EU so it would then no longer be a concern to any of us in britain what any of the various parties in the EU do. We can live our lives outside of their undemocratic corrupt nonsense. "It's not rocket science to find out facts. You should try it some time. | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm." | |||
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"Undecided but aware attitudes to swinging and naturism are more liberal in Europe and a bit anal in the UK. " So far, this is my favourite comment on the thread, maybe because it does not present a reason to stay in or quit the EU. The pro- and anti- posts are getting more inflammatory - personal insults will not move the debate forward. | |||
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"I am a great believer in the Commonwealth and am politically aligned with much of what Tony Benn had to say. I also like the idea of being a nation state and standing on our own two feet. That is the heart speaking. And now there is the head speaking. My father's side of the family were slaughtered in the Holocaust. France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other. The EU has bound these and other countries together so tightly that war would be difficult to start and wage. This is the longest period of peace (and prosperity) Europe has ever sen and for this i will voting to stay in" I suggest you take a trip round Europe and see the rise of the far right for yourself. We were in Germany not long ago, and there were groups of people, from late teens to mid 60s early 70s, singing nationalist songs, Nazi saluting and being outwardly racist toward black people that were around. | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? " No....we already had our own. What we loose is unelected Strasbourg burocrats telling us we can't kick convicted terrorists out and send them back home because of their human rights which take precedence over the population as a whole. The sooner we are out, the better! | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm." Free trade is really important to me, as is the ability to move freely through Europe. If we leave the EU I will look to move to Europe as soon as possible before they bring restrictions in so that I have more freedom to move and travel. | |||
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"Out and close our borders " I can't imagine being so blinded with privilege that people would lose their humanity and desire to help others. We were lucky to be born here. Lucky. We should share some of that luck around, because we don't need as much as we were given. There are people, other beautiful humans, who need a bit of luck for a change. | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm. "1.Free trade with many world countries blocked by EU as we have to negotiate jointly...so not free. Our balance of payments with EU is seriously negative. 2. Only when it suits them. We are, overall the largest nett contributor 3. Interpol predates the EU and is still the only co-ordinating force. We co-ordinate with many other countries too. 4. WTF? We are a massive contributor to these...paying in far more than we get out! 5. We have bog all influence as we are (thank god) outside of the Eurozone. 6. Massively reduced as we are but a small part of EU influence...see point 5. 7. Immigration......?? We had CONTROLLED immigration now it is out of control! 8. There has been little no change in this for decades! Don't see this point. 9. Market fairness? Our farmers get naff compared to the massive French subsidies to tiny farms/smallholdings that should be totally economically unviable if not for the C A P which is anything but "common". And don't get me started on how the fairness has allowed the French and Spanish trawlers to decimate our fishing stocks...bring back our proper territorial waters. 10.the EU allows the free movement of cheap labour, depressing wages and destroying workers rights as jobs are replaced by cheap migrant lanour. . And you would have preferred Ed Milliband as a puppet prime minister being pulled in various directions by Salmond, Sturgeon and his union overlords? | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm. Free trade is really important to me, as is the ability to move freely through Europe. If we leave the EU I will look to move to Europe as soon as possible before they bring restrictions in so that I have more freedom to move and travel." A lot easier to say than to do. Firstly if you are looking for work you will need to speak the language of your chosen country to a high standard. Even if you are bi-lingual you will be competing with thousands of unemployed locals. The only other jobs are in the tourist hotspots, parts of Spain, Greece Etc and those tend to be seasonal, very low paid, and difficult to get. Benefits? Forget it. Bureaucracy? Shit loads, especially in France and Spain. All designed to tie you up in knots. Bottom line is that you need to either have a skill that someone wants and can't find locally, or a private income. Oh and a lot of patience. | |||
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"Reasons to stay in eu: 1. Free trade 2. The EU encourages investment in Britain 3. Police coordination 4. EU Structural Funds 5. Influence within Europe 6. Influence outside Europe 7. Immigration- good for Britain 8. Emigration- good for the British 9. Market fairness. 10. The EU safeguards workers’ rights. Its a big and risky economic gamble that can result in substantial cost on the uk economy to leave. But knowing how the uk people are voting, it wouldnt suprice me at all if they left eu. Its shown what big mistakes they have by voting for cameron twice, its political suicide to have that lunatic as pm.
1.Free trade with many world countries blocked by EU as we have to negotiate jointly...so not free. Our balance of payments with EU is seriously negative.
2. Only when it suits them. We are, overall the largest nett contributor
3. Interpol predates the EU and is still the only co-ordinating force. We co-ordinate with many other countries too.
4. WTF? We are a massive contributor to these...paying in far more than we get out!
5. We have bog all influence as we are (thank god) outside of the Eurozone.
6. Massively reduced as we are but a small part of EU influence...see point 5.
7. Immigration......?? We had CONTROLLED immigration now it is out of control!
8. There has been little no change in this for decades! Don't see this point.
9. Market fairness? Our farmers get naff compared to the massive French subsidies to tiny farms/smallholdings that should be totally economically unviable if not for the C A P which is anything but "common". And don't get me started on how the fairness has allowed the French and Spanish trawlers to decimate our fishing stocks...bring back our proper territorial waters.
10.the EU allows the free movement of cheap labour, depressing wages and destroying workers rights as jobs are replaced by cheap migrant lanour.
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And you would have preferred Ed Milliband as a puppet prime minister being pulled in various directions by Salmond, Sturgeon and his union overlords?"This.
Very similar to what I said earlier in the thread. | |||
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"A lot easier to say than to do. Firstly if you are looking for work you will need to speak the language of your chosen country to a high standard. Even if you are bi-lingual you will be competing with thousands of unemployed locals. The only other jobs are in the tourist hotspots, parts of Spain, Greece Etc and those tend to be seasonal, very low paid, and difficult to get. Benefits? Forget it. Bureaucracy? Shit loads, especially in France and Spain. All designed to tie you up in knots. Bottom line is that you need to either have a skill that someone wants and can't find locally, or a private income. Oh and a lot of patience. "I find it curious that you assume: A) Looking for a low paid job. B) That I am not already bilingual. C) That I would be looking to receive benefits. I'm already a successful writer with a good set of clients. I can work from anywhere in the world with an internet connection (this year I've worked from Paris, New York, and Dublin - and my clients had no idea). I have no need to compete with locals for low-paid work. I don't see this changing any time soon - and if my circumstances did change then I'd be in the same position as I would be in the UK, so I see no difference. Don't assume all of us are incapable of working in anything more than a minimum wage job. Some of us are doing a bit better than that. | |||
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"A lot easier to say than to do. Firstly if you are looking for work you will need to speak the language of your chosen country to a high standard. Even if you are bi-lingual you will be competing with thousands of unemployed locals. The only other jobs are in the tourist hotspots, parts of Spain, Greece Etc and those tend to be seasonal, very low paid, and difficult to get. Benefits? Forget it. Bureaucracy? Shit loads, especially in France and Spain. All designed to tie you up in knots. Bottom line is that you need to either have a skill that someone wants and can't find locally, or a private income. Oh and a lot of patience.
I find it curious that you assume:
A) Looking for a low paid job.
B) That I am not already bilingual.
C) That I would be looking to receive benefits.
I'm already a successful writer with a good set of clients. I can work from anywhere in the world with an internet connection (this year I've worked from Paris, New York, and Dublin - and my clients had no idea).
I have no need to compete with locals for low-paid work. I don't see this changing any time soon - and if my circumstances did change then I'd be in the same position as I would be in the UK, so I see no difference.
Don't assume all of us are incapable of working in anything more than a minimum wage job. Some of us are doing a bit better than that."I assumed nothing. If you carefully read what I posted I just tried to cover as many different scenarios as possible. I pointed out that in general the jobs market on the continent requires language skills and by saying "Even if you are bi-lingual" takes out any assumption that you are not. As a writer I think you would be covered by the line "is that you need to either have a skill that someone wants and can't find locally" While it didn't hit the nail on the head as you are likely to be self employed. I think it was close enough for an open forum. Again even on the Benefits comment I did use a question mark so that would negate any assumption. As for the bureaucracy? Try being a self employed resident in Spain for a while. | |||
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"And you know what the sad thing is? When all is said and done and all the bluster has been sent and the referendum comes then people will vote a resounding Yes to stay in the EU because every single one of you is scared of losing their jobs. When the media turns their guns on the populace the Get Out Of EU vote will crumble. Learn from history. Its the economy stupid and people won't risk their roof over their heads" Rubbish, being in the EU is making the prospect of a lot of people losing their jobs here more likely. Just ask those in the British fishing industry and the haulage industry and the construction industry among others who are having their wages squeezed or being under cut by cheap foreign labour. | |||
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"With regards to Greece. I remember Greece pre EU. Makarios supported EOKA / Enosis. I remember the assasinations, Grivas, Samson and the Generals. Greece within the EU is a damned sight more peaceful than it was outside. Greece is no longer funding the terrorists who killed British troops.. Didn't really help with Yugoslavia though did it!. 1945-1972... Was pretty peaceful in Europe despite the massive divide from capitalism to communism. If trade makes peace how come China and Japan are as close to war as they've ever been, the Japanese are pretty much rearming the entire country through fear of their mighty neighbour despite doing massive trade with China. There's more wars caused through trade than through religion So it was the EU's fault that the Soviet Bloc collapsed and Yugoslavia disintegrated? I'd love to hear how the background reasoning behind that one . Could we also blame those pesky faceless eurocrats for the Korean and Vietnam wars... You keep twisting things, and then pulling people up for twisting things lol. No I was simply pointing out that having an eu trading block might be a link in peaceful times but it's not "why" we've had peaceful times. Europe has not been entirely peaceful during the eu lifespan! I really have no idea why you've dragged Korea or Vietnam into, they were both wars created by the west against the communists! If you want a lesson from Yugoslavia then it's that you can't force people together and if you do through dictatorship like that then eventually it will break apart with gruesome and serious repercussions. I didn't really twist anything, was just curious about how the EU got the blame for the break up of Yugoslavia? Otherwise, given the context, couldn't see why you mentioned Yugoslavia. " . Well the guy who's post is commented on had claimed that the eu was responsible for peace in Europe!, I was merely pointing out that Yugoslavia which is in Europe has been fighting civil/nation war for 10 years and probably still would be today if it wasn't for the intervention of NATO/UN and let's be fair George bush and Tony Blair, it's got nothing to do with a an eu trading block! Europe's recent peace was born from two of the bloodiest conflicts in history, you can't just claim that without the eu we'd all be back fighting tomorrow! | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? " No, we would still be subject to the terms of the European human rights treaty regardless of whether we are in the EU or not. | |||
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"A lot easier to say than to do. Firstly if you are looking for work you will need to speak the language of your chosen country to a high standard. Even if you are bi-lingual you will be competing with thousands of unemployed locals. The only other jobs are in the tourist hotspots, parts of Spain, Greece Etc and those tend to be seasonal, very low paid, and difficult to get. Benefits? Forget it. Bureaucracy? Shit loads, especially in France and Spain. All designed to tie you up in knots. Bottom line is that you need to either have a skill that someone wants and can't find locally, or a private income. Oh and a lot of patience.
I find it curious that you assume:
A) Looking for a low paid job.
B) That I am not already bilingual.
C) That I would be looking to receive benefits.
I'm already a successful writer with a good set of clients. I can work from anywhere in the world with an internet connection (this year I've worked from Paris, New York, and Dublin - and my clients had no idea).
I have no need to compete with locals for low-paid work. I don't see this changing any time soon - and if my circumstances did change then I'd be in the same position as I would be in the UK, so I see no difference.
Don't assume all of us are incapable of working in anything more than a minimum wage job. Some of us are doing a bit better than that.". Your missing the point completely Your scenario never needed the eu, never needed the free movement of labour and never needed a trading block!. That's why actors and film stars, writers and musicians during the 50,60 and 70s worked all over the world, had no problems at all getting into France or Spain or America or Canada!. And quite frankly you'll be able to work anywhere in the world regardless of whether your a UK resident or an eu resident. I work for a guy who fly's in and out of south America constantly on business, he has absolutely no problems doing this whatsoever despite the uk having no trading or political ties to any countries he visits... In fact his biggest hindrance is me Mithering him to offset his carbon footprint | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? Even if we stay in the EU the tories are saying they want leave the European Court of human rights anyway and we can have a new bill of rights. Why? So we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life here and stop prisoners being allowed to vote in elections ( which the ECHR wants them to do). " Actually the ECHR has not said that all, or even any, prisoners should have the right to vote. What it has said is that the way the current ban is implemented leaves Britain open to possibly be sued through the British courts. | |||
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"Out and close our borders I can't imagine being so blinded with privilege that people would lose their humanity and desire to help others. We were lucky to be born here. Lucky. We should share some of that luck around, because we don't need as much as we were given. There are people, other beautiful humans, who need a bit of luck for a change." We have never turned our backs on those who genuinely need help. We were helping people from all over the world, welcoming them to our shores long before we became a part of the EU. I can't imagine being so blinded by the EU to think that leaving the EU would mean we wouldn't continue to help those who need it. | |||
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"Out and close our borders I can't imagine being so blinded with privilege that people would lose their humanity and desire to help others. We were lucky to be born here. Lucky. We should share some of that luck around, because we don't need as much as we were given. There are people, other beautiful humans, who need a bit of luck for a change. We have never turned our backs on those who genuinely need help. We were helping people from all over the world, welcoming them to our shores long before we became a part of the EU. I can't imagine being so blinded by the EU to think that leaving the EU would mean we wouldn't continue to help those who need it." "We should close our borders" is generally said by people who feel we already have too many people here, and that we shouldn't help those who need help. | |||
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"With regards to Greece. I remember Greece pre EU. Makarios supported EOKA / Enosis. I remember the assasinations, Grivas, Samson and the Generals. Greece within the EU is a damned sight more peaceful than it was outside. Greece is no longer funding the terrorists who killed British troops.. Didn't really help with Yugoslavia though did it!. 1945-1972... Was pretty peaceful in Europe despite the massive divide from capitalism to communism. If trade makes peace how come China and Japan are as close to war as they've ever been, the Japanese are pretty much rearming the entire country through fear of their mighty neighbour despite doing massive trade with China. There's more wars caused through trade than through religion So it was the EU's fault that the Soviet Bloc collapsed and Yugoslavia disintegrated? I'd love to hear how the background reasoning behind that one . Could we also blame those pesky faceless eurocrats for the Korean and Vietnam wars... You keep twisting things, and then pulling people up for twisting things lol. No I was simply pointing out that having an eu trading block might be a link in peaceful times but it's not "why" we've had peaceful times. Europe has not been entirely peaceful during the eu lifespan! I really have no idea why you've dragged Korea or Vietnam into, they were both wars created by the west against the communists! If you want a lesson from Yugoslavia then it's that you can't force people together and if you do through dictatorship like that then eventually it will break apart with gruesome and serious repercussions. I didn't really twist anything, was just curious about how the EU got the blame for the break up of Yugoslavia? Otherwise, given the context, couldn't see why you mentioned Yugoslavia. . Well the guy who's post is commented on had claimed that the eu was responsible for peace in Europe!, I was imerely pointing out that Yugoslavia which is in Europe has been fighting civil/nation war for 10 years and probably still would be today if it wasn't for the intervention of NATO/UN and let's be fair George bush and Tony Blair, it's got nothing to do with a an eu trading block! Europe's recent peace was born from two of the bloodiest conflicts in history, you can't just claim that without the eu we'd all be back fighting tomorrow!" You are actually right. I was not as clear as i should have been regarding the EU keeping the peace in Europe. When i mentioned peace i was referring to the EU rather than Europe as a whole. Remember that France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other and wars have been going on for centuries until the Treaty of Rome in 1957/1958. Yugoslavia was not in the EU and it was Nato forces that helped broker peace. I thimk all of the component parts of Yugoslavia are now in the EU (i may be wromg) but the wars have stopped though it will be another 50 yesrs or more before things settle if Northern Ireland is anything to go by. But my original comments was that the EU has bound France, Germany, Spain and Italy so closely that war is unlikely whereas, in the past, it has almost been an annual event | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? No....we already had our own. What we loose is unelected Strasbourg burocrats telling us we can't kick convicted terrorists out and send them back home because of their human rights which take precedence over the population as a whole. The sooner we are out, the better!" Leaving the EU makes no difference to our commitments to Human Rights either positively or negatively. The ECHR was set by BRITAIN after the WW 2 and Britain has been a member of it since its conception; long before we joined the EU/EC/ECC. The Human Rights Act is a law passed in Britain in 1997/8; more than 20 years after we joined the EEC/EC/EU. The two subjects are totally unrelated and one has absolutely no effect on the other. | |||
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"And you know what the sad thing is? When all is said and done and all the bluster has been sent and the referendum comes then people will vote a resounding Yes to stay in the EU because every single one of you is scared of losing their jobs. When the media turns their guns on the populace the Get Out Of EU vote will crumble. Learn from history. Its the economy stupid and people won't risk their roof over their heads" . Your absolutely correct!. David Cameron is as desperate as every other politican to KEEP us in the EU. On that issue alone.... I'm out | |||
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"With regards to Greece. I remember Greece pre EU. Makarios supported EOKA / Enosis. I remember the assasinations, Grivas, Samson and the Generals. Greece within the EU is a damned sight more peaceful than it was outside. Greece is no longer funding the terrorists who killed British troops.. Didn't really help with Yugoslavia though did it!. 1945-1972... Was pretty peaceful in Europe despite the massive divide from capitalism to communism. If trade makes peace how come China and Japan are as close to war as they've ever been, the Japanese are pretty much rearming the entire country through fear of their mighty neighbour despite doing massive trade with China. There's more wars caused through trade than through religion So it was the EU's fault that the Soviet Bloc collapsed and Yugoslavia disintegrated? I'd love to hear how the background reasoning behind that one . Could we also blame those pesky faceless eurocrats for the Korean and Vietnam wars... You keep twisting things, and then pulling people up for twisting things lol. No I was simply pointing out that having an eu trading block might be a link in peaceful times but it's not "why" we've had peaceful times. Europe has not been entirely peaceful during the eu lifespan! I really have no idea why you've dragged Korea or Vietnam into, they were both wars created by the west against the communists! If you want a lesson from Yugoslavia then it's that you can't force people together and if you do through dictatorship like that then eventually it will break apart with gruesome and serious repercussions. I didn't really twist anything, was just curious about how the EU got the blame for the break up of Yugoslavia? Otherwise, given the context, couldn't see why you mentioned Yugoslavia. . Well the guy who's post is commented on had claimed that the eu was responsible for peace in Europe!, I was imerely pointing out that Yugoslavia which is in Europe has been fighting civil/nation war for 10 years and probably still would be today if it wasn't for the intervention of NATO/UN and let's be fair George bush and Tony Blair, it's got nothing to do with a an eu trading block! Europe's recent peace was born from two of the bloodiest conflicts in history, you can't just claim that without the eu we'd all be back fighting tomorrow! You are actually right. I was not as clear as i should have been regarding the EU keeping the peace in Europe. When i mentioned peace i was referring to the EU rather than Europe as a whole. Remember that France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other and wars have been going on for centuries until the Treaty of Rome in 1957/1958. Yugoslavia was not in the EU and it was Nato forces that helped broker peace. I thimk all of the component parts of Yugoslavia are now in the EU (i may be wromg) but the wars have stopped though it will be another 50 yesrs or more before things settle if Northern Ireland is anything to go by. But my original comments was that the EU has bound France, Germany, Spain and Italy so closely that war is unlikely whereas, in the past, it has almost been an annual event" . The federal state of Yugoslavia was born after ww1 from several component countries, forged together through strength and trade under the Serbian kingdom! It survived until after titos death in 80ish but it's problems came from cultural and religious differences and titos inability to reform it's constitution and devolution of federal powers back to the sovereign states! Does this ring a bell? The us intelligence community gave a draft report 1 year before the trouble started warning that the break up of the federal state was imminent with the loss of control from the diminished soviet block. I quote it . Yugoslavia will cease to function as a federal state within a year, and will probably dissolve within two. Economic reform will not stave off the breakup. A full-scale interrepublic war is unlikely, but serious intercommunal conflict will accompany the breakup and will continue afterward. The violence will be intractable and bitter. There is little the United States and its European allies can do to preserve Yugoslav unity! You want to learn from history.... Don't force people together regardless of how right you think are! | |||
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"With regards to Greece. I remember Greece pre EU. Makarios supported EOKA / Enosis. I remember the assasinations, Grivas, Samson and the Generals. Greece within the EU is a damned sight more peaceful than it was outside. Greece is no longer funding the terrorists who killed British troops.. Didn't really help with Yugoslavia though did it!. 1945-1972... Was pretty peaceful in Europe despite the massive divide from capitalism to communism. If trade makes peace how come China and Japan are as close to war as they've ever been, the Japanese are pretty much rearming the entire country through fear of their mighty neighbour despite doing massive trade with China. There's more wars caused through trade than through religion So it was the EU's fault that the Soviet Bloc collapsed and Yugoslavia disintegrated? I'd love to hear how the background reasoning behind that one . Could we also blame those pesky faceless eurocrats for the Korean and Vietnam wars... You keep twisting things, and then pulling people up for twisting things lol. No I was simply pointing out that having an eu trading block might be a link in peaceful times but it's not "why" we've had peaceful times. Europe has not been entirely peaceful during the eu lifespan! I really have no idea why you've dragged Korea or Vietnam into, they were both wars created by the west against the communists! If you want a lesson from Yugoslavia then it's that you can't force people together and if you do through dictatorship like that then eventually it will break apart with gruesome and serious repercussions. I didn't really twist anything, was just curious about how the EU got the blame for the break up of Yugoslavia? Otherwise, given the context, couldn't see why you mentioned Yugoslavia. . Well the guy who's post is commented on had claimed that the eu was responsible for peace in Europe!, I was imerely pointing out that Yugoslavia which is in Europe has been fighting civil/nation war for 10 years and probably still would be today if it wasn't for the intervention of NATO/UN and let's be fair George bush and Tony Blair, it's got nothing to do with a an eu trading block! Europe's recent peace was born from two of the bloodiest conflicts in history, you can't just claim that without the eu we'd all be back fighting tomorrow! You are actually right. I was not as clear as i should have been regarding the EU keeping the peace in Europe. When i mentioned peace i was referring to the EU rather than Europe as a whole. Remember that France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other and wars have been going on for centuries until the Treaty of Rome in 1957/1958. Yugoslavia was not in the EU and it was Nato forces that helped broker peace. I thimk all of the component parts of Yugoslavia are now in the EU (i may be wromg) but the wars have stopped though it will be another 50 yesrs or more before things settle if Northern Ireland is anything to go by. But my original comments was that the EU has bound France, Germany, Spain and Italy so closely that war is unlikely whereas, in the past, it has almost been an annual event. The federal state of Yugoslavia was born after ww1 from several component countries, forged together through strength and trade under the Serbian kingdom! It survived until after titos death in 80ish but it's problems came from cultural and religious differences and titos inability to reform it's constitution and devolution of federal powers back to the sovereign states! Does this ring a bell? The us intelligence community gave a draft report 1 year before the trouble started warning that the break up of the federal state was imminent with the loss of control from the diminished soviet block. I quote it . Yugoslavia will cease to function as a federal state within a year, and will probably dissolve within two. Economic reform will not stave off the breakup. A full-scale interrepublic war is unlikely, but serious intercommunal conflict will accompany the breakup and will continue afterward. The violence will be intractable and bitter. There is little the United States and its European allies can do to preserve Yugoslav unity! You want to learn from history.... Don't force people together regardless of how right you think are!" I've only quoted this to attempt the fab swingers longest quote world record. | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? Even if we stay in the EU the tories are saying they want leave the European Court of human rights anyway and we can have a new bill of rights. Why? So we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life here and stop prisoners being allowed to vote in elections ( which the ECHR wants them to do). Actually the ECHR has not said that all, or even any, prisoners should have the right to vote. What it has said is that the way the current ban is implemented leaves Britain open to possibly be sued through the British courts." Which is in other words another way of trying to force us through threats of legal action to give prisoners the right to vote. | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? Even if we stay in the EU the tories are saying they want leave the European Court of human rights anyway and we can have a new bill of rights. Why? So we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life here and stop prisoners being allowed to vote in elections ( which the ECHR wants them to do). Actually the ECHR has not said that all, or even any, prisoners should have the right to vote. What it has said is that the way the current ban is implemented leaves Britain open to possibly be sued through the British courts. Which is in other words another way of trying to force us through threats of legal action to give prisoners the right to vote. " What's the problems with prisoners voting? Punishment for crime in this country is incarceration. When you're incarcerated you don't lose your citizenship. And a key part of citizenship in our country is having the right to vote. The punishment is losing the ability to move about freely. Not losing your basic rights as a British citizen. | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? Even if we stay in the EU the tories are saying they want leave the European Court of human rights anyway and we can have a new bill of rights. Why? So we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life here and stop prisoners being allowed to vote in elections ( which the ECHR wants them to do). Actually the ECHR has not said that all, or even any, prisoners should have the right to vote. What it has said is that the way the current ban is implemented leaves Britain open to possibly be sued through the British courts. Which is in other words another way of trying to force us through threats of legal action to give prisoners the right to vote. What's the problems with prisoners voting? Punishment for crime in this country is incarceration. When you're incarcerated you don't lose your citizenship. And a key part of citizenship in our country is having the right to vote. The punishment is losing the ability to move about freely. Not losing your basic rights as a British citizen." Hell why not just go the whole hog then and set them all free while you are at it. When you are convicted of a crime in a court of law then you give up some of your rights. One is your right to freedom and currently another is your right to vote. I don't think that should change, I find the idea of prisoners being able to vote repulsive. | |||
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"Hell why not just go the whole hog then and set them all free while you are at it. When you are convicted of a crime in a court of law then you give up some of your rights. One is your right to freedom and currently another is your right to vote. I don't think that should change, I find the idea of prisoners being able to vote repulsive. " It's called 'universal' suffrage. Universal. You don't like the thought of prisoners voting. Someone I met a few weeks ago didn't think women should vote. What's the difference? If it's not universal suffrage, we need to change the name. Not-quite-universal suffrage. Universal-unless-you-piss-people-off suffrage. Universal-unless-you-stand-up-for-what-you-believe-in suffrage. Prisoners are often well educated individuals. They also have more time on their hands than you or I which often means they're well read and educated about things like politics. I don't know about you, but most of my friends that voted just voted for the people they've always voted. Often the people their parents voted for. I'd rather have someone who cared voting. In addition voting in prison has been shown to increase participation in society on release. It's something that can contribute to good rehabilitation after their incarceration is over. Encouraging prisoners to learn about politics and vote helps the individuals to invest in their community and wider society and can help prevent reoffending. It troubles me more though that many are locked up for political crimes. For instance, take a trade unionist who was arrested and imprisoned by a right wing government. Making sure that prisoners can't vote is just another way of making sure that political prisoners can't make their voices heard. Lock them up - it's easier than dealing with people who bring up real issues in our society. | |||
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"Hell why not just go the whole hog then and set them all free while you are at it. When you are convicted of a crime in a court of law then you give up some of your rights. One is your right to freedom and currently another is your right to vote. I don't think that should change, I find the idea of prisoners being able to vote repulsive. It's called 'universal' suffrage. Universal. You don't like the thought of prisoners voting. Someone I met a few weeks ago didn't think women should vote. What's the difference? If it's not universal suffrage, we need to change the name. Not-quite-universal suffrage. Universal-unless-you-piss-people-off suffrage. Universal-unless-you-stand-up-for-what-you-believe-in suffrage. Prisoners are often well educated individuals. They also have more time on their hands than you or I which often means they're well read and educated about things like politics. I don't know about you, but most of my friends that voted just voted for the people they've always voted. Often the people their parents voted for. I'd rather have someone who cared voting. In addition voting in prison has been shown to increase participation in society on release. It's something that can contribute to good rehabilitation after their incarceration is over. Encouraging prisoners to learn about politics and vote helps the individuals to invest in their community and wider society and can help prevent reoffending. It troubles me more though that many are locked up for political crimes. For instance, take a trade unionist who was arrested and imprisoned by a right wing government. Making sure that prisoners can't vote is just another way of making sure that political prisoners can't make their voices heard. Lock them up - it's easier than dealing with people who bring up real issues in our society." . That's why every country should have a constitution where citizens have guaranteed rights. The Magna carta served us well for many years and I certainly didn't need the eu for that! Freedom from persecution from the state has been a point of law for 800 years | |||
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"Hell why not just go the whole hog then and set them all free while you are at it. When you are convicted of a crime in a court of law then you give up some of your rights. One is your right to freedom and currently another is your right to vote. I don't think that should change, I find the idea of prisoners being able to vote repulsive. It's called 'universal' suffrage. Universal. You don't like the thought of prisoners voting. Someone I met a few weeks ago didn't think women should vote. What's the difference? If it's not universal suffrage, we need to change the name. Not-quite-universal suffrage. Universal-unless-you-piss-people-off suffrage. Universal-unless-you-stand-up-for-what-you-believe-in suffrage. Prisoners are often well educated individuals. They also have more time on their hands than you or I which often means they're well read and educated about things like politics. I don't know about you, but most of my friends that voted just voted for the people they've always voted. Often the people their parents voted for. I'd rather have someone who cared voting. In addition voting in prison has been shown to increase participation in society on release. It's something that can contribute to good rehabilitation after their incarceration is over. Encouraging prisoners to learn about politics and vote helps the individuals to invest in their community and wider society and can help prevent reoffending. It troubles me more though that many are locked up for political crimes. For instance, take a trade unionist who was arrested and imprisoned by a right wing government. Making sure that prisoners can't vote is just another way of making sure that political prisoners can't make their voices heard. Lock them up - it's easier than dealing with people who bring up real issues in our society." The difference between prisoners voting and women voting is simple, one is allowed by law and the other is'nt. Sorry but I totally disagree with you. Currently the law in this country says when you are sent to jail you are not allowed to vote. I hope it stays that way. | |||
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" What's the problems with prisoners voting? Punishment for crime in this country is incarceration. When you're incarcerated you don't lose your citizenship. And a key part of citizenship in our country is having the right to vote. The punishment is losing the ability to move about freely. Not losing your basic rights as a British citizen." by and large agree.. the remit of the prison service is to try and rehabilitate as well as keep bad folks away from us.. | |||
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"Hell why not just go the whole hog then and set them all free while you are at it. When you are convicted of a crime in a court of law then you give up some of your rights. One is your right to freedom and currently another is your right to vote. I don't think that should change, I find the idea of prisoners being able to vote repulsive. It's called 'universal' suffrage. Universal. You don't like the thought of prisoners voting. Someone I met a few weeks ago didn't think women should vote. What's the difference? If it's not universal suffrage, we need to change the name. Not-quite-universal suffrage. Universal-unless-you-piss-people-off suffrage. Universal-unless-you-stand-up-for-what-you-believe-in suffrage. Prisoners are often well educated individuals. They also have more time on their hands than you or I which often means they're well read and educated about things like politics. I don't know about you, but most of my friends that voted just voted for the people they've always voted. Often the people their parents voted for. I'd rather have someone who cared voting. In addition voting in prison has been shown to increase participation in society on release. It's something that can contribute to good rehabilitation after their incarceration is over. Encouraging prisoners to learn about politics and vote helps the individuals to invest in their community and wider society and can help prevent reoffending. It troubles me more though that many are locked up for political crimes. For instance, take a trade unionist who was arrested and imprisoned by a right wing government. Making sure that prisoners can't vote is just another way of making sure that political prisoners can't make their voices heard. Lock them up - it's easier than dealing with people who bring up real issues in our society." historically in some regimes most trades union officials, journalists etc have ended up with a bullet in the back of the head.. | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? Even if we stay in the EU the tories are saying they want leave the European Court of human rights anyway and we can have a new bill of rights. Why? So we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life here and stop prisoners being allowed to vote in elections ( which the ECHR wants them to do). Actually the ECHR has not said that all, or even any, prisoners should have the right to vote. What it has said is that the way the current ban is implemented leaves Britain open to possibly be sued through the British courts. Which is in other words another way of trying to force us through threats of legal action to give prisoners the right to vote. What's the problems with prisoners voting? Punishment for crime in this country is incarceration. When you're incarcerated you don't lose your citizenship. And a key part of citizenship in our country is having the right to vote. The punishment is losing the ability to move about freely. Not losing your basic rights as a British citizen." Part of the punishment of imprisonment is the loss of your civil liberties whilst imprisoned. Part of your civil liberties is the right to vote. You don't have to be a UK citizen to have the right to vote in the UK. Commonwealth citizens can register to vote, as can EU citizens resident here. | |||
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"The difference between prisoners voting and women voting is simple, one is allowed by law and the other is'nt. Sorry but I totally disagree with you. Currently the law in this country says when you are sent to jail you are not allowed to vote. I hope it stays that way. " Universal suffrage. That means everyone. We're always very proud of the fact that our country has universal suffrage. Except we don't. | |||
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" You don't have to be a UK citizen to have the right to vote in the UK. Commonwealth citizens can register to vote, as can EU citizens resident here. " Though EU citizens can't vote in general elections... | |||
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"With regards to Greece. I remember Greece pre EU. Makarios supported EOKA / Enosis. I remember the assasinations, Grivas, Samson and the Generals. Greece within the EU is a damned sight more peaceful than it was outside. Greece is no longer funding the terrorists who killed British troops.. Didn't really help with Yugoslavia though did it!. 1945-1972... Was pretty peaceful in Europe despite the massive divide from capitalism to communism. If trade makes peace how come China and Japan are as close to war as they've ever been, the Japanese are pretty much rearming the entire country through fear of their mighty neighbour despite doing massive trade with China. There's more wars caused through trade than through religion So it was the EU's fault that the Soviet Bloc collapsed and Yugoslavia disintegrated? I'd love to hear how the background reasoning behind that one . Could we also blame those pesky faceless eurocrats for the Korean and Vietnam wars... You keep twisting things, and then pulling people up for twisting things lol. No I was simply pointing out that having an eu trading block might be a link in peaceful times but it's not "why" we've had peaceful times. Europe has not been entirely peaceful during the eu lifespan! I really have no idea why you've dragged Korea or Vietnam into, they were both wars created by the west against the communists! If you want a lesson from Yugoslavia then it's that you can't force people together and if you do through dictatorship like that then eventually it will break apart with gruesome and serious repercussions. I didn't really twist anything, was just curious about how the EU got the blame for the break up of Yugoslavia? Otherwise, given the context, couldn't see why you mentioned Yugoslavia. . Well the guy who's post is commented on had claimed that the eu was responsible for peace in Europe!, I was imerely pointing out that Yugoslavia which is in Europe has been fighting civil/nation war for 10 years and probably still would be today if it wasn't for the intervention of NATO/UN and let's be fair George bush and Tony Blair, it's got nothing to do with a an eu trading block! Europe's recent peace was born from two of the bloodiest conflicts in history, you can't just claim that without the eu we'd all be back fighting tomorrow! You are actually right. I was not as clear as i should have been regarding the EU keeping the peace in Europe. When i mentioned peace i was referring to the EU rather than Europe as a whole. Remember that France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other and wars have been going on for centuries until the Treaty of Rome in 1957/1958. Yugoslavia was not in the EU and it was Nato forces that helped broker peace. I thimk all of the component parts of Yugoslavia are now in the EU (i may be wromg) but the wars have stopped though it will be another 50 yesrs or more before things settle if Northern Ireland is anything to go by. But my original comments was that the EU has bound France, Germany, Spain and Italy so closely that war is unlikely whereas, in the past, it has almost been an annual event. The federal state of Yugoslavia was born after ww1 from several component countries, forged together through strength and trade under the Serbian kingdom! It survived until after titos death in 80ish but it's problems came from cultural and religious differences and titos inability to reform it's constitution and devolution of federal powers back to the sovereign states! Does this ring a bell? The us intelligence community gave a draft report 1 year before the trouble started warning that the break up of the federal state was imminent with the loss of control from the diminished soviet block. I quote it . Yugoslavia will cease to function as a federal state within a year, and will probably dissolve within two. Economic reform will not stave off the breakup. A full-scale interrepublic war is unlikely, but serious intercommunal conflict will accompany the breakup and will continue afterward. The violence will be intractable and bitter. There is little the United States and its European allies can do to preserve Yugoslav unity! You want to learn from history.... Don't force people together regardless of how right you think are!" I'm inclined to agree with your analysis on Yugoslavia. I also agree that much further integration within the EU at this time is not a good idea and it may well never be a good idea. However we can only influence what happens in Europe by being part of Europe and having a full say in what happens. That can only be achieved by being part of the EU. What happens within the EU will directly affect Britain for good or ill. I can see no advantage to Britain if giving up our say in what does actually happen. | |||
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" You don't have to be a UK citizen to have the right to vote in the UK. Commonwealth citizens can register to vote, as can EU citizens resident here. Though EU citizens can't vote in general elections..." Unless they're Irish? | |||
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" You don't have to be a UK citizen to have the right to vote in the UK. Commonwealth citizens can register to vote, as can EU citizens resident here. Though EU citizens can't vote in general elections... Unless they're Irish?" The basis on which they can vote here has nothing to do with them being EU citizens. That's not the qualifying factor. | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? Even if we stay in the EU the tories are saying they want leave the European Court of human rights anyway and we can have a new bill of rights. Why? So we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life here and stop prisoners being allowed to vote in elections ( which the ECHR wants them to do). Actually the ECHR has not said that all, or even any, prisoners should have the right to vote. What it has said is that the way the current ban is implemented leaves Britain open to possibly be sued through the British courts. Which is in other words another way of trying to force us through threats of legal action to give prisoners the right to vote. " Either way it's totally irrelevant to a discussion on the EU. The ECHR Has absolutely nothing to do with the EU and the Humans Rights Act is BRITISH law not EU. | |||
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"With regards to Greece. I remember Greece pre EU. Makarios supported EOKA / Enosis. I remember the assasinations, Grivas, Samson and the Generals. Greece within the EU is a damned sight more peaceful than it was outside. Greece is no longer funding the terrorists who killed British troops.. Didn't really help with Yugoslavia though did it!. 1945-1972... Was pretty peaceful in Europe despite the massive divide from capitalism to communism. If trade makes peace how come China and Japan are as close to war as they've ever been, the Japanese are pretty much rearming the entire country through fear of their mighty neighbour despite doing massive trade with China. There's more wars caused through trade than through religion So it was the EU's fault that the Soviet Bloc collapsed and Yugoslavia disintegrated? I'd love to hear how the background reasoning behind that one . Could we also blame those pesky faceless eurocrats for the Korean and Vietnam wars... You keep twisting things, and then pulling people up for twisting things lol. No I was simply pointing out that having an eu trading block might be a link in peaceful times but it's not "why" we've had peaceful times. Europe has not been entirely peaceful during the eu lifespan! I really have no idea why you've dragged Korea or Vietnam into, they were both wars created by the west against the communists! If you want a lesson from Yugoslavia then it's that you can't force people together and if you do through dictatorship like that then eventually it will break apart with gruesome and serious repercussions. I didn't really twist anything, was just curious about how the EU got the blame for the break up of Yugoslavia? Otherwise, given the context, couldn't see why you mentioned Yugoslavia. . Well the guy who's post is commented on had claimed that the eu was responsible for peace in Europe!, I was imerely pointing out that Yugoslavia which is in Europe has been fighting civil/nation war for 10 years and probably still would be today if it wasn't for the intervention of NATO/UN and let's be fair George bush and Tony Blair, it's got nothing to do with a an eu trading block! Europe's recent peace was born from two of the bloodiest conflicts in history, you can't just claim that without the eu we'd all be back fighting tomorrow! You are actually right. I was not as clear as i should have been regarding the EU keeping the peace in Europe. When i mentioned peace i was referring to the EU rather than Europe as a whole. Remember that France, Germany, Spain and Italy hate each other and wars have been going on for centuries until the Treaty of Rome in 1957/1958. Yugoslavia was not in the EU and it was Nato forces that helped broker peace. I thimk all of the component parts of Yugoslavia are now in the EU (i may be wromg) but the wars have stopped though it will be another 50 yesrs or more before things settle if Northern Ireland is anything to go by. But my original comments was that the EU has bound France, Germany, Spain and Italy so closely that war is unlikely whereas, in the past, it has almost been an annual event. The federal state of Yugoslavia was born after ww1 from several component countries, forged together through strength and trade under the Serbian kingdom! It survived until after titos death in 80ish but it's problems came from cultural and religious differences and titos inability to reform it's constitution and devolution of federal powers back to the sovereign states! Does this ring a bell? The us intelligence community gave a draft report 1 year before the trouble started warning that the break up of the federal state was imminent with the loss of control from the diminished soviet block. I quote it . Yugoslavia will cease to function as a federal state within a year, and will probably dissolve within two. Economic reform will not stave off the breakup. A full-scale interrepublic war is unlikely, but serious intercommunal conflict will accompany the breakup and will continue afterward. The violence will be intractable and bitter. There is little the United States and its European allies can do to preserve Yugoslav unity! You want to learn from history.... Don't force people together regardless of how right you think are! I'm inclined to agree with your analysis on Yugoslavia. I also agree that much further integration within the EU at this time is not a good idea and it may well never be a good idea. However we can only influence what happens in Europe by being part of Europe and having a full say in what happens. That can only be achieved by being part of the EU. What happens within the EU will directly affect Britain for good or ill. I can see no advantage to Britain if giving up our say in what does actually happen." . The eu is not really the problem Immigration isn't really a problem Money isn't really a problem Debt isn't really a problem Religion isn't really a problem Human beings however are problematic to say the least! And curing/changing them is a whole harder thing than restructuring how they live! Trust me I've spent too long campaigning on really important shit to know..... There not going to fucking change, ever! My solution is to kill everyone over the age of 16 and start again! I don't expect to get elected anytime soon | |||
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"Am I right that if we come out - we lose the human rights act? Even if we stay in the EU the tories are saying they want leave the European Court of human rights anyway and we can have a new bill of rights. Why? So we can stop foreign criminals claiming right to family life here and stop prisoners being allowed to vote in elections ( which the ECHR wants them to do). Actually the ECHR has not said that all, or even any, prisoners should have the right to vote. What it has said is that the way the current ban is implemented leaves Britain open to possibly be sued through the British courts. Which is in other words another way of trying to force us through threats of legal action to give prisoners the right to vote. What's the problems with prisoners voting? Punishment for crime in this country is incarceration. When you're incarcerated you don't lose your citizenship. And a key part of citizenship in our country is having the right to vote. The punishment is losing the ability to move about freely. Not losing your basic rights as a British citizen. Hell why not just go the whole hog then and set them all free while you are at it. When you are convicted of a crime in a court of law then you give up some of your rights. One is your right to freedom and currently another is your right to vote. I don't think that should change, I find the idea of prisoners being able to vote repulsive. " I don't find it repulsive but neither do I think it's a good idea, however it's a decision for the British parliament to make and has nothing to do with the EU. (NOTE: I'm not saying it should be a matter for the British Parliament I'm saying it is, it always has been and it always will be regardless of whether we are in the EU or not) | |||
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"Hell why not just go the whole hog then and set them all free while you are at it. When you are convicted of a crime in a court of law then you give up some of your rights. One is your right to freedom and currently another is your right to vote. I don't think that should change, I find the idea of prisoners being able to vote repulsive. It's called 'universal' suffrage. Universal. You don't like the thought of prisoners voting. Someone I met a few weeks ago didn't think women should vote. What's the difference? If it's not universal suffrage, we need to change the name. Not-quite-universal suffrage. Universal-unless-you-piss-people-off suffrage. Universal-unless-you-stand-up-for-what-you-believe-in suffrage. Prisoners are often well educated individuals. They also have more time on their hands than you or I which often means they're well read and educated about things like politics. I don't know about you, but most of my friends that voted just voted for the people they've always voted. Often the people their parents voted for. I'd rather have someone who cared voting. In addition voting in prison has been shown to increase participation in society on release. It's something that can contribute to good rehabilitation after their incarceration is over. Encouraging prisoners to learn about politics and vote helps the individuals to invest in their community and wider society and can help prevent reoffending. It troubles me more though that many are locked up for political crimes. For instance, take a trade unionist who was arrested and imprisoned by a right wing government. Making sure that prisoners can't vote is just another way of making sure that political prisoners can't make their voices heard. Lock them up - it's easier than dealing with people who bring up real issues in our society." As far as this thread is concerned the whole topic is irrelevant. This matter is, always has been and always will be, decided by the British Parliament. The EU never has and never will have a say in this. | |||
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"I'll accept whatever the people decide in the referendum......... "words of wisdom - as always | |||
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" You don't have to be a UK citizen to have the right to vote in the UK. Commonwealth citizens can register to vote, as can EU citizens resident here. Though EU citizens can't vote in general elections... Unless they're Irish?" Or Cypriot or Maltese or Gibraltarian. | |||
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" My solution is to kill everyone over the age of 16 and start again! I don't expect to get elected anytime soon "Fine by me provided you start with yourself.
Wouldn't it be a whole lot better to thin out at each end, a lot less births and save the NHS the immense costs of end of life care simply to retain life? | |||
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"Hell why not just go the whole hog then and set them all free while you are at it. When you are convicted of a crime in a court of law then you give up some of your rights. One is your right to freedom and currently another is your right to vote. I don't think that should change, I find the idea of prisoners being able to vote repulsive. It's called 'universal' suffrage. Universal. You don't like the thought of prisoners voting. Someone I met a few weeks ago didn't think women should vote. What's the difference? If it's not universal suffrage, we need to change the name. Not-quite-universal suffrage. Universal-unless-you-piss-people-off suffrage. Universal-unless-you-stand-up-for-what-you-believe-in suffrage. Prisoners are often well educated individuals. They also have more time on their hands than you or I which often means they're well read and educated about things like politics. I don't know about you, but most of my friends that voted just voted for the people they've always voted. Often the people their parents voted for. I'd rather have someone who cared voting. In addition voting in prison has been shown to increase participation in society on release. It's something that can contribute to good rehabilitation after their incarceration is over. Encouraging prisoners to learn about politics and vote helps the individuals to invest in their community and wider society and can help prevent reoffending. It troubles me more though that many are locked up for political crimes. For instance, take a trade unionist who was arrested and imprisoned by a right wing government. Making sure that prisoners can't vote is just another way of making sure that political prisoners can't make their voices heard. Lock them up - it's easier than dealing with people who bring up real issues in our society. As far as this thread is concerned the whole topic is irrelevant. This matter is, always has been and always will be, decided by the British Parliament. The EU never has and never will have a say in this." And thankfully the British courts who on occasions do their bit to overrule excessive behaviour by governments. | |||
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" My solution is to kill everyone over the age of 16 and start again! I don't expect to get elected anytime soon
Fine by me provided you start with yourself.
Wouldn't it be a whole lot better to thin out at each end, a lot less births and save the NHS the immense costs of end of life care simply to retain life? ". You never read lord of the flies then!. Obviously me being the sensible adult, I will have to hang around to educate them correctly
Regardless of my, your or anybody else's _iews on euthanasia... It will be rolled out!, the real question is whether it will be voluntary or compulsory  | |||
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" My solution is to kill everyone over the age of 16 and start again! I don't expect to get elected anytime soon
Fine by me provided you start with yourself.
Wouldn't it be a whole lot better to thin out at each end, a lot less births and save the NHS the immense costs of end of life care simply to retain life? .
You never read lord of the flies then!.
Obviously me being the sensible adult, I will have to hang around to educate them correctly
Regardless of my, your or anybody else's _iews on euthanasia... It will be rolled out!, the real question is whether it will be voluntary or compulsory "You're getting more moderate in your old age? | |||
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" My solution is to kill everyone over the age of 16 and start again! I don't expect to get elected anytime soon
Fine by me provided you start with yourself.
Wouldn't it be a whole lot better to thin out at each end, a lot less births and save the NHS the immense costs of end of life care simply to retain life? .
You never read lord of the flies then!.
Obviously me being the sensible adult, I will have to hang around to educate them correctly
Regardless of my, your or anybody else's _iews on euthanasia... It will be rolled out!, the real question is whether it will be voluntary or compulsory "Euthanasia!!! FFS MAN!! Just because it starts with bloody EU doesn't mean it's anything to do with Europe. grrrrr. | |||
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" My solution is to kill everyone over the age of 16 and start again! I don't expect to get elected anytime soon
Fine by me provided you start with yourself.
Wouldn't it be a whole lot better to thin out at each end, a lot less births and save the NHS the immense costs of end of life care simply to retain life? .
You never read lord of the flies then!.
Obviously me being the sensible adult, I will have to hang around to educate them correctly
Regardless of my, your or anybody else's _iews on euthanasia... It will be rolled out!, the real question is whether it will be voluntary or compulsory
You're getting more moderate in your old age?". Nah, just realistic! You know the thing that always frightened me the most in everything I've ever read! The amount of Nazi concentration camp guards/staff/commandants/doctors... Even alot of the high ranking officials in the Nazi party. They were all really , how do I put this..... Quite nice people! You know we've always been lead to believe that nasty people are well... Nasty,I always presumed you'd be able to tell from their _iews in life, philosophy, political persuasions, sexuality!..I couldn't see the common link amongst them And somewhere along the way I realised they could just be nice people in every other way except they hold extreme _iews on single issues or to put it another way extreme solutions to hard questions!..... Question Your family are drowning and you can save them but it requires letting go of a rope that's holding 300 strangers afloat!!! Solution??....I think the truth is there's a little Nazi in all of us and that's the scary bit  | |||
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