FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Principles over Popularity - Labour's choice..?
Principles over Popularity - Labour's choice..?
Jump to: Newest in thread
| |||
| |||
"Ive never voted labour, but I respected what they stood for. Socialism is, at least, noble + a well intentioned idea. But, pardon my French, these cunts sold out a long time ago. About 94, when they ditched clause 4 - guess that was the beginning. But they sunk lower than a snakes belly with that decision last parliament to support the bit where unemployed girl had to work for 40 hrs or lose her benefits. Even though this was actually illegal. they just want the power, there is hardly any socialism left. In fact, there's none. They are a disgrace. " It's interesting you say that as many prominent voices appear to be telling the party to continue shedding their ideals or they won't ever have power again... According the media et al, that is much more important | |||
| |||
| |||
" ................. It's interesting you say that as many prominent voices appear to be telling the party to continue shedding their ideals or they won't ever have power again... According the media et al, that is much more important " Too many 'prominent voices' positioning themselves behind their chosen candidate in the hope of promotion/ preferment should their choice win through. That, and the concentration on personality (see questions about candidate's weight) show just how bad things have gotten. | |||
"Labour have been chucked outta scotland. They will never come back here. 1 seat in Westminster from Scotland, next Holyrood elections then council elections. There is going to be nothing left of labour her in 2 years time. And quite right. The Scots see them now as traitors and they sided with the hated tories side by side to scare the populance at the referendum. " That is bollox. I understand you might not appreciate the distinction but the Tories sided with the No campaign - nothing more. I won't remind you of the result. I doubt you'll ever forget it. | |||
| |||
" Maybe there could genuinely be a 3rd way, but labour are just Tory lite now I'm afraid." Labour have been more Tory than the Conservatives for a while, do not forget it was Labour who brought in the bedroom tax. The Conservatives just extended it to include those in social housing. | |||
" Maybe there could genuinely be a 3rd way, but labour are just Tory lite now I'm afraid. Labour have been more Tory than the Conservatives for a while, do not forget it was Labour who brought in the bedroom tax. The Conservatives just extended it to include those in social housing." You don't wanna believe everything you read on Wings Over Scotland. | |||
" You don't wanna believe everything you read on Wings Over Scotland." Even Alex Salmond wants nothing to do with that site. That's pretty telling. | |||
" You don't wanna believe everything you read on Wings Over Scotland. Even Alex Salmond wants nothing to do with that site. That's pretty telling." Salmond's a lying toerag. | |||
| |||
| |||
For the good of the country let it be Corbyn who ensures that sensible Conservatism is retained in this country. | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
 | |||
" OP, have you asked Nick Clegg what he thinks about selling out your own and your parties principles for a quick gtab at power. And how that turned out? Interesting comment the other day, that Labour was/is the party of working people. ie not the long term career benefit scroungers. The working people voted in May 2015. " . I think that's the main point, the working class has been in the main screwed over by nearly every party for 40 years, oh how the middle class laughed at their suffering until the shoe was on the other foot!. The trouble with democracies is they don't work when times are good and they actually hinder the problem when times are bad! I guess it's the old saying the public get what the public deserve | |||
"I may be mistaken but isn't the point of politicians to represent what we want not what they want? So doing what is popular is their job isn't it, if taking a course of action makes them unelectable they are missing the point and being self indulgent. I'm with Billy Connolly " the desire to become a politician should in itself be grounds to bar them from office" "I disagree... Parties are formed based similar views and values shared by a number of people... One shouldn't sell out and become like everyone else just so they stand a chance at governance... The electorate ought to have choice and everyone should have soundly based principles... In an ideal world. | |||
| |||
| |||
"Bring back tony, he knows how to win elections." Are you taking the piss?  | |||
"Bring back tony, he knows how to win elections. Are you taking the piss? "no I like the guy, would have a coffe and a Panini at nandos for a good old chat with him lol. | |||
"Bring back tony, he knows how to win elections. Are you taking the piss? no I like the guy, would have a coffe and a Panini at nandos for a good old chat with him lol."You owe me one pisstakometer, its burst n stuff m8 | |||
| |||
| |||
"Bring back tony, he knows how to win elections. Are you taking the piss? no I like the guy, would have a coffe and a Panini at nandos for a good old chat with him lol.
You owe me one pisstakometer, its burst n stuff m8"lol that's right pal, a pint each there. | |||
"i think i am one of the labour/lib dem voters that ed was trying to attract last time... and i couldn't bring myself to do it... i like corbyn as a person, i think he is very principled in what he stands for, I truely believe that he is about as honest as politicians get these days.... I can't been myself voting for him.. i can see him driving voters like me away...i truely believe that if he becomes leading you will see defections or a split in the labour party...." He ought not change.. If there's a labour split or whatever, it's because the conservatives better serve the needs of the people at the moment. Ideologies and principles ought not do u-turns, I believe. The circumstances and conditions of the electorate will determine their choices. I hope there will be a choice that's more distinct than a scrap for the centre ground of compromise. | |||
"Here's a question What's the only industry that's given protection under the untied states constitution? You can't fix anything until your informed!" Nah, that can't be right, hasn't it been mandatory for some years now that actors in the US porn industry must wear condoms? | |||
"i think i am one of the labour/lib dem voters that ed was trying to attract last time... and i couldn't bring myself to do it... i like corbyn as a person, i think he is very principled in what he stands for, I truely believe that he is about as honest as politicians get these days.... I can't been myself voting for him.. i can see him driving voters like me away...i truely believe that if he becomes leading you will see defections or a split in the labour party...." . I've spent 16 years in the green party,10 of those actively campaigning for them! So do I sell out my beliefs in environmentalism, water it down to an 'acceptable'level that the public would vote for! Can I in all honesty say, yayy we've got power haven't we done well but wait... Look what's happened to my fundermental beliefs, I've washed them away for power! If the green party have to attract non green people to get power, then fuck it, I've wasted 10 years However if we never get power but change the attitude of even a small percentage of the population, then I can say it was 10 years of worthwhile effort | |||
| |||
| |||
"The only way Labour can win an election in my eyes is to provide an alternative to the Tories, currently they don't, they abstain or vote with them when they want to fuck up the vulnerable, its a sad day when a regional nationalist party provide the only real opposition. The tragic thing is, traditional Labourites in England have no party to turn to these days as toffs have strong armed their way to the top of the Labour Party, people called Tristam, really, is that whats its come to? One day the Scottish Electorate will wake up, but not before we get control over broadcasting rights. We put up with so much unbelievable bullshit last year." I wouldn't let a Christian name get in the way of examining someone's political aspirations? I would vote for a Rab or Jock if I thought they had the right intentions. | |||
"i think i am one of the labour/lib dem voters that ed was trying to attract last time... and i couldn't bring myself to do it... i like corbyn as a person, i think he is very principled in what he stands for, I truely believe that he is about as honest as politicians get these days.... I can't been myself voting for him.. i can see him driving voters like me away...i truely believe that if he becomes leading you will see defections or a split in the labour party..... I've spent 16 years in the green party,10 of those actively campaigning for them! So do I sell out my beliefs in environmentalism, water it down to an 'acceptable'level that the public would vote for! Can I in all honesty say, yayy we've got power haven't we done well but wait... Look what's happened to my fundermental beliefs, I've washed them away for power! If the green party have to attract non green people to get power, then fuck it, I've wasted 10 years However if we never get power but change the attitude of even a small percentage of the population, then I can say it was 10 years of worthwhile effort" Pretty much what I was thinking. Fabio is usually pretty eloquent on politics (not that I agree with much of what he says - that's debate) but that made no sense to me at all. Like the guy, what he stands for, principled, most honest politician - but people will never vote for him. I know one party the MSM and RW lead press said that about too... B | |||
| |||
".............. One day the Scottish Electorate will wake up, but not before we get control over broadcasting rights. We put up with so much unbelievable bullshit last year." So what you really want is control over propaganda - like Goebbels? | |||
"I think it would be healthy for democracy to have a proper, dyed-in-the-wool, conviction socialist in charge of the Labour party. It would give a voice to many who currently feel left out of politics. Sturgeon has shown how much appetite there is for a truely socialist leader. Obviously since he is a 'loony-leftie', I couldn't possibly vote for him, but it is interesting to see the number of issues where I agree with him... Labour is fast becoming a niche-party of the public-sector unions: both Gordon Brown's expansion, and Osbourne's contraction of the state, is more about political gerrymandering imho. Mr ddc" largely agree with this, 'new Labour' lost me when it started to look indistinguishable from the Tory party in its policies.. the SNP for their faults are closer to the values of Labour, hence they stuffed them up there in May and i don't see that changing for a while.. the centre ground has become too congested in the desire to be in power but when you electorate can't distinguish between the 2 main parties that's not the best for us.. was pleased to see a lot of the newly elected Labour MP's vote against the welfare bill.. | |||
| |||
| |||
"Labour have been chucked outta scotland. They will never come back here. 1 seat in Westminster from Scotland, next Holyrood elections then council elections. There is going to be nothing left of labour her in 2 years time. And quite right. The Scots see them now as traitors and they sided with the hated tories side by side to scare the populance at the referendum. " WHS And the unedifying spectacle of that ego maniac George Galloway standing on a Tory platform. And well done Patrick Harvey  Of the Green party for having the guts to remind us of Galloway's comments on rape. Rarely have i seen someone blown out of the water so effectively. | |||
| |||
"I'm a very proud socialist in fact I've always been quite content being referred to as a Marxist. Am I left wing with every point of view, no!. I think Jeremy corbyn is by far the best candidate for three reasons He's the most honest He's the most straight talking He's disliked by Tony Blair. Those who wish to sell their souls to the devil for some shiny coins are certainly not the people I want to vote for!" So you want the Tories in power for ever therefore you are a Tory,think about it and stop being a dreamer. | |||
"Bring back tony, he knows how to win elections." And how to screw people. How to lie through grinning teeth. How to lead us into an illegal war on the back of what he knew was falsified evidence. How to leave the Middle East totally fcuked up so he could then get a very lucrative job as a "peace" envoy! (What a joke). I disagree with many politicians of both main parties. But there can never have been before or since such a cynical egotistical self-promoting sleaze-ball in the entire history of British politics. Labour seem to be unable to find a "middle ground" for themselves. Do they go back towards Blairite policies....which the Tories already occupy so they offer no alternative and are unelectable. Or do they move left to Corbyn, scare most of the population to death and are also unelectable. Without the middle path, which they seem to have lost (the plot) then I see a long time in the wilderness either way! | |||
 | |||
"I'm a very proud socialist in fact I've always been quite content being referred to as a Marxist. Am I left wing with every point of view, no!. I think Jeremy corbyn is by far the best candidate for three reasons He's the most honest He's the most straight talking He's disliked by Tony Blair. Those who wish to sell their souls to the devil for some shiny coins are certainly not the people I want to vote for!So you want the Tories in power for ever therefore you are a Tory,think about it and stop being a dreamer." . Your presuming that the Tories would be in forever, but your wrong, sooner or later all parties teach there sell by date and another crunch chimes along that there'll get blamed for and the electorate wouldn't touch them with a barge pole! It will happen to the Tories it's just a matter of time? So bearing this in mind I'd rather have an opposition than the same party with different colours. This current notion of "nobody will touch a left wing party"... It's utter bollocks France has a left wing party Scotland has a left wing party Australia Canada Sweden What your saying is all these first world intelligent countries know something only you are privy too. It's utter nonsense to suggest that any left wing party won't get elected in England, there's plenty of sensible people would love to if the fucking media would stop scaring them to death with bullshit! | |||
" Labour is fast becoming a niche-party of the public-sector unions: both Gordon Brown's expansion, and Osbourne's contraction of the state, is more about political gerrymandering imho. Mr ddc" Absolutely spot on, with the proviso that there a lot of public sector union members who do not and will not ever vote Labour but have to be in the union because of their job. Hence why the Tories are wanting to make any strike ballot require a majority of the membership rather than those who actually vote. Good thing too. | |||
| |||
| |||
" ps one thing i could never work out, Dame Shirley Porter was done found guilty of buying votes for Tories in a london area, so how come G Brown isn't being done for the same, buying votes. Lol, with debt on your account." Whose votes is Gordon supposed to have bought? | |||
| |||
"From this weeks' Private Eye: EVERYONE SUDDENLY REMEMBERS WHAT TORIES ARE LIKE People across Britain have belatedly remembered exactly what it is they vote for in May. Many people voted for the Conservatives under the impression they were, "you know, those nice ones, who are a pretty safe pair of hands". Others recall dimly from before 1997 that "we can trust the not to ruin everything." Now, with the NHS under attached, the BBC on the verge of being sold off, courts being closed down, schools being turned in to academies, people having their benefits cut unless they can prove they were born before 1935, and Grant Shaps back in government, people have suddenly remembered, "Oh, it's THOSE Tories we elected!"" Dont see the NHS having any cuts ALL parties said they will increase spending on it. Ask almost anyone who works in the NHS and they will say it cant carry on as it is, we have a ageing population and lots of younger ones who rush to the quack with a cold or scratch etc, Mrs works in it and there is more and more managers and pen pushers to deal with the paperwork/compensation claims etc. Not seen any proposal to sell off the beeb and surely if a school is not doing well enough then it has to be changed, failing teachers need to improve or be pushed out. Makes me laugh when people say labour is the party of the working class and tories of the middle class, are they saying the middle class dont work, we have the government that the majority voted for and yet some say that people want a left wing government and no austerity, well strangely most of europe has tried to to that and their economies are still in the shite. No country can spend forever more than they take in taxes, tax too heavily and people lose the incentive to earn more, we have to spend less in the public sector by making it more efficient and better value for money while delivering a better service, it can be done, ask any private business we have to do more for less or go bust | |||
"From this weeks' Private Eye: EVERYONE SUDDENLY REMEMBERS WHAT TORIES ARE LIKE People across Britain have belatedly remembered exactly what it is they vote for in May. Many people voted for the Conservatives under the impression they were, "you know, those nice ones, who are a pretty safe pair of hands". Others recall dimly from before 1997 that "we can trust the not to ruin everything." Now, with the NHS under attached, the BBC on the verge of being sold off, courts being closed down, schools being turned in to academies, people having their benefits cut unless they can prove they were born before 1935, and Grant Shaps back in government, people have suddenly remembered, "Oh, it's THOSE Tories we elected!" Dont see the NHS having any cuts ALL parties said they will increase spending on it. Ask almost anyone who works in the NHS and they will say it cant carry on as it is, we have a ageing population and lots of younger ones who rush to the quack with a cold or scratch etc, Mrs works in it and there is more and more managers and pen pushers to deal with the paperwork/compensation claims etc. Not seen any proposal to sell off the beeb and surely if a school is not doing well enough then it has to be changed, failing teachers need to improve or be pushed out. Makes me laugh when people say labour is the party of the working class and tories of the middle class, are they saying the middle class dont work, we have the government that the majority voted for and yet some say that people want a left wing government and no austerity, well strangely most of europe has tried to to that and their economies are still in the shite. No country can spend forever more than they take in taxes, tax too heavily and people lose the incentive to earn more, we have to spend less in the public sector by making it more efficient and better value for money while delivering a better service, it can be done, ask any private business we have to do more for less or go bust " *COrubbishFFS* | |||
"All governments buy votes one way or another but there is a legal way and an illegal way. It is illegal to only give council houses to Tory voters to increase the Tory vote in particular council areas. It is legal to cap the benefits available to people on benefits who presumably would vote Labour, the cab being so low they are unable to live and vote in a particular area. But that may be an unintended consequence of capping benefits in London." 'Unintended' lololololol. | |||
"From this weeks' Private Eye: EVERYONE SUDDENLY REMEMBERS WHAT TORIES ARE LIKE People across Britain have belatedly remembered exactly what it is they vote for in May. Many people voted for the Conservatives under the impression they were, "you know, those nice ones, who are a pretty safe pair of hands". Others recall dimly from before 1997 that "we can trust the not to ruin everything." Now, with the NHS under attached, the BBC on the verge of being sold off, courts being closed down, schools being turned in to academies, people having their benefits cut unless they can prove they were born before 1935, and Grant Shaps back in government, people have suddenly remembered, "Oh, it's THOSE Tories we elected!" Dont see the NHS having any cuts ALL parties said they will increase spending on it. Ask almost anyone who works in the NHS and they will say it cant carry on as it is, we have a ageing population and lots of younger ones who rush to the quack with a cold or scratch etc, Mrs works in it and there is more and more managers and pen pushers to deal with the paperwork/compensation claims etc. Not seen any proposal to sell off the beeb and surely if a school is not doing well enough then it has to be changed, failing teachers need to improve or be pushed out. Makes me laugh when people say labour is the party of the working class and tories of the middle class, are they saying the middle class dont work, we have the government that the majority voted for and yet some say that people want a left wing government and no austerity, well strangely most of europe has tried to to that and their economies are still in the shite. No country can spend forever more than they take in taxes, tax too heavily and people lose the incentive to earn more, we have to spend less in the public sector by making it more efficient and better value for money while delivering a better service, it can be done, ask any private business we have to do more for less or go bust " . Things your wrong about 1 austerity hasn't worked in any country it's been tried in. 2 you can spend more than you take in tax (I'm not saying this is my chosen route) but it's entirely possible, just look at the usa or Japan or the uk or most of the g8 3 if you've really really not seen the cuts in the NHS,I suggest you've not actually looked! 4 the nhs is contrary to what you suggest entirely sustainable! It just requires money and good management, as for medical claims, surely that should come under management! If we really wanted to tackle the biggest issues facing this country and to be honest every other country, what we should have done is take all that bailout money and spent it wisely on decarbonising the countries infrastructure, it would have given everybody a job, provided training in real future needed technology, built green low energy houses, transport, energy grids, power stations, maglef trains, not some 19th century train that will take 20 years and loads of billions to be out of date by the time the first person travels on it FFS.... We could have done the greatest things and been seen like the Victorians as a great future thinking generation!. leaving a legacy of substance for future generations, instead of disposable shite, pound shops, zero hour contracts and council estates full of hopeless, dreamless monotony! You know what.... Fuck it, no one gives a shit anyhow!... Just carry on fucking the place up and moaning about left wingers | |||
| |||
"Labour may well splinter. Good luck to a left wing version. Not sure I would vote for a leader with hebollza "friends" but I'm funny like that. As of the SNP being a vision to aspire to ? Petty nationalism that hasn't got a clue on education policy yet worries about English foxes "An expert on SNP policies residing in Stafford. Im impressed. I'm kind of aligned with the views of my neighbour. Basic tenet is that all politicians are bastards but the SNP are our bastards and not controlled by the English bastards | |||
"From this weeks' Private Eye: EVERYONE SUDDENLY REMEMBERS WHAT TORIES ARE LIKE People across Britain have belatedly remembered exactly what it is they vote for in May. Many people voted for the Conservatives under the impression they were, "you know, those nice ones, who are a pretty safe pair of hands". Others recall dimly from before 1997 that "we can trust the not to ruin everything." Now, with the NHS under attached, the BBC on the verge of being sold off, courts being closed down, schools being turned in to academies, people having their benefits cut unless they can prove they were born before 1935, and Grant Shaps back in government, people have suddenly remembered, "Oh, it's THOSE Tories we elected!" Dont see the NHS having any cuts ALL parties said they will increase spending on it. Ask almost anyone who works in the NHS and they will say it cant carry on as it is, we have a ageing population and lots of younger ones who rush to the quack with a cold or scratch etc, Mrs works in it and there is more and more managers and pen pushers to deal with the paperwork/compensation claims etc. Not seen any proposal to sell off the beeb and surely if a school is not doing well enough then it has to be changed, failing teachers need to improve or be pushed out. Makes me laugh when people say labour is the party of the working class and tories of the middle class, are they saying the middle class dont work, we have the government that the majority voted for and yet some say that people want a left wing government and no austerity, well strangely most of europe has tried to to that and their economies are still in the shite. No country can spend forever more than they take in taxes, tax too heavily and people lose the incentive to earn more, we have to spend less in the public sector by making it more efficient and better value for money while delivering a better service, it can be done, ask any private business we have to do more for less or go bust . Things your wrong about 1 austerity hasn't worked in any country it's been tried in. 2 you can spend more than you take in tax (I'm not saying this is my chosen route) but it's entirely possible, just look at the usa or Japan or the uk or most of the g8 3 if you've really really not seen the cuts in the NHS,I suggest you've not actually looked! 4 the nhs is contrary to what you suggest entirely sustainable! It just requires money and good management, as for medical claims, surely that should come under management! If we really wanted to tackle the biggest issues facing this country and to be honest every other country, what we should have done is take all that bailout money and spent it wisely on decarbonising the countries infrastructure, it would have given everybody a job, provided training in real future needed technology, built green low energy houses, transport, energy grids, power stations, maglef trains, not some 19th century train that will take 20 years and loads of billions to be out of date by the time the first person travels on it FFS.... We could have done the greatest things and been seen like the Victorians as a great future thinking generation!. leaving a legacy of substance for future generations, instead of disposable shite, pound shops, zero hour contracts and council estates full of hopeless, dreamless monotony! You know what.... Fuck it, no one gives a shit anyhow!... Just carry on fucking the place up and moaning about left wingers " Strange how we have more jobs in this country than ever, inflation is zero,wages are rising, the rise in debt is slowing . Its not me that says the NHS is unsustainable its those including my wife who works in it, would agree that GOOD management would improve it but thats the trouble there is just more layers of management, most of whom couldnt run a piss up in a brewery. As for spending more than you spend, just try it yourself or go to Greece, while any country can and has done it for far too long when it gets to a level that means interest becomes great than the tax take what do you suggest you do then, borrowing for infrastructure can be a good investment provided you can pay that off by getting growth and thus tax take, borrowing for day to day costs will lead to the mess we are all in, the UK is paying more than 1 billion a week in interest payments, if the debt was half and we saved 26 billion a year in interest the nhs could spend all the money it liked. | |||
"From this weeks' Private Eye: EVERYONE SUDDENLY REMEMBERS WHAT TORIES ARE LIKE People across Britain have belatedly remembered exactly what it is they vote for in May. Many people voted for the Conservatives under the impression they were, "you know, those nice ones, who are a pretty safe pair of hands". Others recall dimly from before 1997 that "we can trust the not to ruin everything." Now, with the NHS under attached, the BBC on the verge of being sold off, courts being closed down, schools being turned in to academies, people having their benefits cut unless they can prove they were born before 1935, and Grant Shaps back in government, people have suddenly remembered, "Oh, it's THOSE Tories we elected!" Dont see the NHS having any cuts ALL parties said they will increase spending on it. Ask almost anyone who works in the NHS and they will say it cant carry on as it is, we have a ageing population and lots of younger ones who rush to the quack with a cold or scratch etc, Mrs works in it and there is more and more managers and pen pushers to deal with the paperwork/compensation claims etc. Not seen any proposal to sell off the beeb and surely if a school is not doing well enough then it has to be changed, failing teachers need to improve or be pushed out. Makes me laugh when people say labour is the party of the working class and tories of the middle class, are they saying the middle class dont work, we have the government that the majority voted for and yet some say that people want a left wing government and no austerity, well strangely most of europe has tried to to that and their economies are still in the shite. No country can spend forever more than they take in taxes, tax too heavily and people lose the incentive to earn more, we have to spend less in the public sector by making it more efficient and better value for money while delivering a better service, it can be done, ask any private business we have to do more for less or go bust . Things your wrong about 1 austerity hasn't worked in any country it's been tried in. 2 you can spend more than you take in tax (I'm not saying this is my chosen route) but it's entirely possible, just look at the usa or Japan or the uk or most of the g8 3 if you've really really not seen the cuts in the NHS,I suggest you've not actually looked! 4 the nhs is contrary to what you suggest entirely sustainable! It just requires money and good management, as for medical claims, surely that should come under management! If we really wanted to tackle the biggest issues facing this country and to be honest every other country, what we should have done is take all that bailout money and spent it wisely on decarbonising the countries infrastructure, it would have given everybody a job, provided training in real future needed technology, built green low energy houses, transport, energy grids, power stations, maglef trains, not some 19th century train that will take 20 years and loads of billions to be out of date by the time the first person travels on it FFS.... We could have done the greatest things and been seen like the Victorians as a great future thinking generation!. leaving a legacy of substance for future generations, instead of disposable shite, pound shops, zero hour contracts and council estates full of hopeless, dreamless monotony! You know what.... Fuck it, no one gives a shit anyhow!... Just carry on fucking the place up and moaning about left wingers Strange how we have more jobs in this country than ever, inflation is zero,wages are rising, the rise in debt is slowing . Its not me that says the NHS is unsustainable its those including my wife who works in it, would agree that GOOD management would improve it but thats the trouble there is just more layers of management, most of whom couldnt run a piss up in a brewery. As for spending more than you spend, just try it yourself or go to Greece, while any country can and has done it for far too long when it gets to a level that means interest becomes great than the tax take what do you suggest you do then, borrowing for infrastructure can be a good investment provided you can pay that off by getting growth and thus tax take, borrowing for day to day costs will lead to the mess we are all in, the UK is paying more than 1 billion a week in interest payments, if the debt was half and we saved 26 billion a year in interest the nhs could spend all the money it liked. " . I agree we don't manage things well enough, but I really don't get why not managing something well= privatise, surely the easy answer is to improve our management! You know if we'd done that thirty years ago we'd be getting a great big load of cash every year in profit from those industries we actually privatised! So my problem with this austerity is, it shuts down your gdp at the very time you can't afford a gdp drop. Let's say the government gives 100 pounds in benefit to a family. 30 pounds of that years ago went on council house rent ie straight to your local council, now where does it go, private landlord! They spend another 30 pounds on energy, gas, electric, fuel, 30 years ago those three were state owned and the money could have gone back to the government, now it goes to France and Germany who own them. When you stop making things as a country, when you buy things the money goes abroad and that means you have to replace that money with debt! Our current account is at an all time high and getting worse by the year!..... And that is where our real problem lies. Cutting government debt won't cut our debt, it will just transfer from gov debt to private debt! The interest paid will be exactly the same if not more and yes high debt repayment means less money for people to spend which means less growth! | |||
| |||
| |||
Sorry I will try and be less informed in future as ignorance is for the best.
Personally anyone but Burnham. Corbyn would be exciting but are Labour doubling down on the last election strategy. Can't see a shift to the left winning unless there is a major economic shock. | |||
" Let's also not forget that : .... 2) Wasn't it Glasgow who announced or effected 1200 nurse redundancies on the very day that Tories/Liberals came to power in May 2010. No-one else's fault other than Brown. It was Greater Glasgow and Clyde Health Board which announced the redundancies. Nobodies fault other than Salmond and .... guess who ...... Cabinet Secretary for Health on that day, Nicola Sturgeon. That, btw, is why the Sufferin' General is in such a mess- despite Shona Robison's attempt to fiddle waiting times. " | |||
"They just abandoned the very people they stood for when they were founded. They just point fingers t the SNP for being the party they should be, I'm ashamed of them, I I'm sure if my dad was still alive he'd vote SNP. as they are the only true workers party left. " You mean they are the Party doing the best sales job at the moment... Telling disenfranchised Scots what they want to hear and giving them someone to point the finger at and to hate in that particularly aggressive the way that Scots who feel affronted have. The greatest irony of all is that the SNP were more austere in Scotland than the last coalition and yet they champion an anti austerity ticket. The recent Eurozone debacle with Greece and how it was very publicly and brazenly beaten into line should have demonstrated quite clearly to even the most anti English north of Hadrians Wall that a United Kingdom is a far more civilised place than a so called United Europe - especially for small fish looking to live in the big pond. | |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
| |||
"I never used to be a Tory, only prob I had with them was lack of gay rights, but other than that, i agree with the policies. Labour live in lalaland, where money grows on trees and you can freely give it out. I am a tory now,they aren't the best, but labour is worse." The issue with Tory principles is that they will always look after their own, and at the expense of the others. I'm not a fan of the party system at all, a system where the members of each party vote for whatever the party Whip tells them too doesn't seem democratic. It should surely be their responsibility to vote how their constituents would prefer, regardless of how it sits with the party's ethos? | |||
| |||
" The issue with Tory principles is that they will always look after their own, and at the expense of the others " Which is exactly what a trade union does!! | |||
" The issue with Tory principles is that they will always look after their own, and at the expense of the others Which is exactly what a trade union does!!" Trade Unions look after the many, not the few. | |||
" The issue with Tory principles is that they will always look after their own, and at the expense of the others Which is exactly what a trade union does!! Trade Unions look after the many, not the few." But only after the leadership look after themselves. It isnt a criticism of the trade unions, just a recognition of human nature. | |||
" The issue with Tory principles is that they will always look after their own, and at the expense of the others Which is exactly what a trade union does!! Trade Unions look after the many, not the few. But only after the leadership look after themselves. It isnt a criticism of the trade unions, just a recognition of human nature." They look after their members interests, that's the reason they exist. | |||
" The issue with Tory principles is that they will always look after their own, and at the expense of the others Which is exactly what a trade union does!! Trade Unions look after the many, not the few." In the early 1980's I lost my chosen career due to the total collapse of an intrinsically British industry that had essentially been the backbone of our empire. The blame was laid firmly at the foot of Thatcherism but years later it became obvious that the Unions were far more to blame. The industry was a closed shop at all levels and the Union demands on pay and working conditions meant that in the end we worked less than six months in a year and were paid a full year plus extra for the six months that we actually worked. The British shipping industry virtually disappeared in less than a decade with shipping companies transferring to foreign flags. The demands of the Unions were unsustainable in a global market and this applies today in many industries. Unions are only effective when they can hold the general public hostage for the benefit of their Members. That is NOT benefiting the many. It may suit Unions to portray a simple message that they are looking after their Members interests because it is an easy message to put out. It is not always the truth though. | |||
" The issue with Tory principles is that they will always look after their own, and at the expense of the others Which is exactly what a trade union does!! Trade Unions look after the many, not the few. In the early 1980's I lost my chosen career due to the total collapse of an intrinsically British industry that had essentially been the backbone of our empire. The blame was laid firmly at the foot of Thatcherism but years later it became obvious that the Unions were far more to blame. The industry was a closed shop at all levels and the Union demands on pay and working conditions meant that in the end we worked less than six months in a year and were paid a full year plus extra for the six months that we actually worked. The British shipping industry virtually disappeared in less than a decade with shipping companies transferring to foreign flags. The demands of the Unions were unsustainable in a global market and this applies today in many industries. Unions are only effective when they can hold the general public hostage for the benefit of their Members. That is NOT benefiting the many. It may suit Unions to portray a simple message that they are looking after their Members interests because it is an easy message to put out. It is not always the truth though." Samething happened to me. | |||
".............. One day the Scottish Electorate will wake up, but not before we get control over broadcasting rights. We put up with so much unbelievable bullshit last year. So what you really want is control over propaganda - like Goebbels?" (m) adding to this. My family is part Scottish (Clan without Land), Swiss, German, Italian and French. My Swiss grandfather was on the list for the "new" KZ Weissenstein near Solothurn if Switzerland would have joined the New Reich. However an event changed all this in 1942 was called Stalingrad... The 75'000 Swiss members of this "German" party vanished into thin air... Some went to Germany to fight in a specific part of the Army, but most just vanished. In 10 years from now when people wake up to the promises and threats of the SNP the vanishing effect will start.. Where is Mr Salmond and Mrs Sturgeon now with the oil price going throught the bottom ? Iran being able to sell oil crude from start of next year the oil price will be $28 per barrel... Where is the so-called promise of an indep. state of Scotland based on the riches of North Sea oil... All vanished... No one says anything anymore Also this it was the fault of the English.. Sorry you got your history wrong.. Scotland was broke when it joined the Union under James II - nothing left in the drawers..all wasted on an adventure of setting up the first Scottish settlement in North America... Wasted in now terms over £5 billion... It was the Lairds who cleared out the Highlands for the new sheep industry and not the English... I hate it when parties build up their socalled politics on lies and promises... Beppo Grillo of Italy does not promise anything and says it as it is ... that is the kind of politics one should have...Not lies and promises | |||
"..clp4funleeds In 10 years from now when people wake up to the promises and threats of the SNP the vanishing effect will start.. Where is Mr Salmond and Mrs Sturgeon now with the oil price going throught the bottom ? Iran being able to sell oil crude from start of next year the oil price will be $28 per barrel... Where is the so-called promise of an indep. state of Scotland based on the riches of North Sea oil... All vanished... No one says anything anymore " you are a bit uneducated if you consider the price of oil today as "rock bottom" you did make me laugh though. Can you not remember 1999 / 2000 when we were at $12 a barrel? I remember it well, and I know the exact cost to produce a barrel of oil at that time and the cost to produce today, I also know and understand the EOR projects very well, and know the West of Shetland tenders and investments so unless you know the facts on oil prices, the position the North Sea is in with oil recovery & EOR, as well as West of Shetland projects I suggest you don't sprout nonsense or go back and adjust your figures and statements have a nice day now | |||
"Ive never voted labour, but I respected what they stood for. Socialism is, at least, noble + a well intentioned idea. But, pardon my French, these cunts sold out a long time ago. About 94, when they ditched clause 4 - guess that was the beginning. But they sunk lower than a snakes belly with that decision last parliament to support the bit where unemployed girl had to work for 40 hrs or lose her benefits. Even though this was actually illegal. they just want the power, there is hardly any socialism left. In fact, there's none. They are a disgrace. "
That's why I turned to the lib dems in the 90's. (That went well  ). I voted TUSC in the last one, as a message to Labour. | |||
"..clp4funleeds In 10 years from now when people wake up to the promises and threats of the SNP the vanishing effect will start.. Where is Mr Salmond and Mrs Sturgeon now with the oil price going throught the bottom ? Iran being able to sell oil crude from start of next year the oil price will be $28 per barrel... Where is the so-called promise of an indep. state of Scotland based on the riches of North Sea oil... All vanished... No one says anything anymore you are a bit uneducated if you consider the price of oil today as "rock bottom" you did make me laugh though. Can you not remember 1999 / 2000 when we were at $12 a barrel? I remember it well, and I know the exact cost to produce a barrel of oil at that time and the cost to produce today, I also know and understand the EOR projects very well, and know the West of Shetland tenders and investments so unless you know the facts on oil prices, the position the North Sea is in with oil recovery & EOR, as well as West of Shetland projects I suggest you don't sprout nonsense or go back and adjust your figures and statements have a nice day now" Simply being offensive doesn't win arguments. | |||
"..clp4funleeds In 10 years from now when people wake up to the promises and threats of the SNP the vanishing effect will start.. Where is Mr Salmond and Mrs Sturgeon now with the oil price going throught the bottom ? Iran being able to sell oil crude from start of next year the oil price will be $28 per barrel... Where is the so-called promise of an indep. state of Scotland based on the riches of North Sea oil... All vanished... No one says anything anymore you are a bit uneducated if you consider the price of oil today as "rock bottom" you did make me laugh though. Can you not remember 1999 / 2000 when we were at $12 a barrel? I remember it well, and I know the exact cost to produce a barrel of oil at that time and the cost to produce today, I also know and understand the EOR projects very well, and know the West of Shetland tenders and investments so unless you know the facts on oil prices, the position the North Sea is in with oil recovery & EOR, as well as West of Shetland projects I suggest you don't sprout nonsense or go back and adjust your figures and statements have a nice day now Simply being offensive doesn't win arguments." its not offensive, its facts and the facts of the OP I was replying to are wrong care to comment more on oil& gas UK | |||
"Its clear from the Michael Foot days that this country does not want a left wing government. I delivered Labour party leaflets when I was 13 and was an active trades unionist but it seems that the left will never have power and that a Tory light faction have the ear of the populous." We need to remember why the labour party was formed in the first place. To protect the poor and oppressed. We are seeing increasing poverty levels and increasing government control of the population. A leftwing government will happen again, the greed, avarice and cruelty of the right will bring about their own demise. It's almost like its planned.  | |||
" We need to remember why the labour party was formed in the first place. To protect the poor and oppressed. We are seeing increasing poverty levels and increasing government control of the population. A leftwing government will happen again, the greed, avarice and cruelty of the right will bring about their own demise. It's almost like its planned. "they need a "strong" leader to do this and a strong leader is what they lack both un Scotland and Westminster People listen too, and support, back a strong leader Miliband was not a strong leader and people do not back wimps | |||
"..clp4funleeds In 10 years from now when people wake up to the promises and threats of the SNP the vanishing effect will start.. Where is Mr Salmond and Mrs Sturgeon now with the oil price going throught the bottom ? Iran being able to sell oil crude from start of next year the oil price will be $28 per barrel... Where is the so-called promise of an indep. state of Scotland based on the riches of North Sea oil... All vanished... No one says anything anymore you are a bit uneducated if you consider the price of oil today as "rock bottom" you did make me laugh though. Can you not remember 1999 / 2000 when we were at $12 a barrel? I remember it well, and I know the exact cost to produce a barrel of oil at that time and the cost to produce today, I also know and understand the EOR projects very well, and know the West of Shetland tenders and investments so unless you know the facts on oil prices, the position the North Sea is in with oil recovery & EOR, as well as West of Shetland projects I suggest you don't sprout nonsense or go back and adjust your figures and statements have a nice day now Simply being offensive doesn't win arguments. its not offensive, its facts and the facts of the OP I was replying to are wrong care to comment more on oil& gas UK" Facts are chiels. You're spouting propaganda and claiming it as fact. That's offensive. | |||
"Its clear from the Michael Foot days that this country does not want a left wing government. I delivered Labour party leaflets when I was 13 and was an active trades unionist but it seems that the left will never have power and that a Tory light faction have the ear of the populous. We need to remember why the labour party was formed in the first place. To protect the poor and oppressed. We are seeing increasing poverty levels and increasing government control of the population. A leftwing government will happen again, the greed, avarice and cruelty of the right will bring about their own demise. It's almost like its planned. "How exactly do the poor benefit from unsustainable debt and government borrowing? | |||
| |||
" The issue with Tory principles is that they will always look after their own, and at the expense of the others Which is exactly what a trade union does!! Trade Unions look after the many, not the few. In the early 1980's I lost my chosen career due to the total collapse of an intrinsically British industry that had essentially been the backbone of our empire. The blame was laid firmly at the foot of Thatcherism but years later it became obvious that the Unions were far more to blame. The industry was a closed shop at all levels and the Union demands on pay and working conditions meant that in the end we worked less than six months in a year and were paid a full year plus extra for the six months that we actually worked. The British shipping industry virtually disappeared in less than a decade with shipping companies transferring to foreign flags. The demands of the Unions were unsustainable in a global market and this applies today in many industries. Unions are only effective when they can hold the general public hostage for the benefit of their Members. That is NOT benefiting the many. It may suit Unions to portray a simple message that they are looking after their Members interests because it is an easy message to put out. It is not always the truth though." Well put! I was willing to gloss over the fact that the long term effect of manipulating wages and benefits is that the job / company / industry will probably collapse, but at least in the short term they are supposed to be looking out for their members. The way politicians are supposed to look out for voters. Trade unions are still fighting a battle they've already won. The problem is they don't know when to stop. Health and safety at work has improved incredibly in the last 100 years, there's a minimum wage, 5 day working week, 100 years ago these things were unthinkable - they won already! | |||
| |||
"Labour didn't vote with the whip last Monday whilst the SNP lined up like good little lobby fodder." ------------------------- SOME Labour MPs didn't vote with the whip ..... most did as they were told. | |||
" The issue with Tory principles is that they will always look after their own, and at the expense of the others Which is exactly what a trade union does!! Trade Unions look after the many, not the few. In the early 1980's I lost my chosen career due to the total collapse of an intrinsically British industry that had essentially been the backbone of our empire. The blame was laid firmly at the foot of Thatcherism but years later it became obvious that the Unions were far more to blame. The industry was a closed shop at all levels and the Union demands on pay and working conditions meant that in the end we worked less than six months in a year and were paid a full year plus extra for the six months that we actually worked. The British shipping industry virtually disappeared in less than a decade with shipping companies transferring to foreign flags. The demands of the Unions were unsustainable in a global market and this applies today in many industries. Unions are only effective when they can hold the general public hostage for the benefit of their Members. That is NOT benefiting the many. It may suit Unions to portray a simple message that they are looking after their Members interests because it is an easy message to put out. It is not always the truth though. Well put! I was willing to gloss over the fact that the long term effect of manipulating wages and benefits is that the job / company / industry will probably collapse, but at least in the short term they are supposed to be looking out for their members. The way politicians are supposed to look out for voters. Trade unions are still fighting a battle they've already won. The problem is they don't know when to stop. Health and safety at work has improved incredibly in the last 100 years, there's a minimum wage, 5 day working week, 100 years ago these things were unthinkable - they won already! " . The system isn't the problem, it's the British trait of class. That's why Germany never had a problem with unions and still really don't. The British have certain inbuilt traits like class and home ownership, new car registrations, the ability to fuck the next guy over for a fiver served us well for a few hundred years until the world caught up with us. The unions were never the problem, the people are! | |||
"Labour didn't vote with the whip last Monday whilst the SNP lined up like good little lobby fodder. ------------------------- SOME Labour MPs didn't vote with the whip ..... most did as they were told." Whilst ALL the Nats did as they were told. | |||
"People still die at work. People still get paid less than NMW. "
Hence the unions. Eternal vigilance. | |||
" We need to remember why the labour party was formed in the first place. To protect the poor and oppressed. We are seeing increasing poverty levels and increasing government control of the population. A leftwing government will happen again, the greed, avarice and cruelty of the right will bring about their own demise. It's almost like its planned.
they need a "strong" leader to do this and a strong leader is what they lack both un Scotland and Westminster
People listen too, and support, back a strong leader
Miliband was not a strong leader and people do not back wimps"Bliar was a strong leader. Look what him n Bush did to the Middle East....! | |||
