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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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This is going to sound controversial but it's how I feel about this whole rememberance thing, and reading a post made by someone else on here the other day who spoke about how their g/father felt about WW1 reinforces my own _iews on it all.
The g/father complained that it has all been romanticised and that the real WW1 memories were of young men forced into combat, and shot if they refused. That WW1 was more about two cousins (our King George and Wilhelm of Germany) on opposing sides not being able to square their differences with each other without involving millions of other people.
When the govt makes restitution to the families of all those young men - good men - shot for cowardice by their own officers then maybe I'll remember those who fell in WW1 with pride. For now, I cannot bring myself to pay my respects to a wasted generation who died for no other reason than the whims of the elite.
WW2 is a different matter entirely as Hitler had to be stopped. There is evidence to suggest that he never wanted to invade Britain and that he may have stopped at Calais, but, history is written by the victors and we'll never know for certain what would have happened.
Couple that with the huge debt we incurred to our supposed 'friends', the Americans, and it's quite easy to see the shine of victory lose it's lustre and become tarnished with political posturing over the years 1945.
Then we move into Iraq, an illegal war, but one that needed to be fought never the less, to remove a tryrant from power who threatened to bring the world to economic collapse with his control and manipulation of 25% of the world's oil supply (the fact that we've had newer technology that would reduce our dependence on Middle Eastern oil is naother topic for debate and how many men would not have died had those technologies not been supressed by successive governments who did everything within their power to maintain the industry that the combustion engine provides).
Yes, I remember the individual men who have died, men who had lives, families, children and a future. And hopes that were cruelly snuffed out by men in power who didn't give adamn about the ones left behind to grieve for why should have been but can now never be.
Don't ask me to wear a poppy because I won't, but they have my respect for the personal sacrifice they made, whether they chose to do it or not. |
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i wonder how many years it will continue
no one seems to give thought to the soldiers we lost wnen bodica fought the romans in st albans or those that lost there lives fighting the beserkers and in the norman conquest , civil war etc etc
500 years from now , wars since 1914 will most likely be just an essay to write about in an O level exam |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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hmm a controversial _iew maybe. solely with reference to WW1 it's bothers me that while the dead are being honoured at one end of whitehall at the other sits Haig on his horse. watching.
Young men, soldiers, Nineteen Fourteen
Marching through countries they'd never seen
Virgins with rifles, a game of charades
All for a Children's Crusade
Pawns in the game are not victims of chance
Strewn on the fields of Belgium and France
Poppies for young men, death's bitter trade
All of those young lives betrayed
The children of England would never be slaves
They're trapped on the wire and dying in waves
The flower of England face down in the mud
And stained in the blood of a whole generation
Corpulent generals safe behind lines
History's lessons drowned in red wine
Poppies for young men, death's bitter trade
All of those young lives betrayed
All for a Children's Crusade
Sting
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"This is going to sound controversial but it's how I feel about this whole rememberance thing, and reading a post made by someone else on here the other day who spoke about how their g/father felt about WW1 reinforces my own _iews on it all.
The g/father complained that it has all been romanticised and that the real WW1 memories were of young men forced into combat, and shot if they refused. That WW1 was more about two cousins (our King George and Wilhelm of Germany) on opposing sides not being able to square their differences with each other without involving millions of other people.
When the govt makes restitution to the families of all those young men - good men - shot for cowardice by their own officers then maybe I'll remember those who fell in WW1 with pride. For now, I cannot bring myself to pay my respects to a wasted generation who died for no other reason than the whims of the elite.
WW2 is a different matter entirely as Hitler had to be stopped. There is evidence to suggest that he never wanted to invade Britain and that he may have stopped at Calais, but, history is written by the victors and we'll never know for certain what would have happened.
Couple that with the huge debt we incurred to our supposed 'friends', the Americans, and it's quite easy to see the shine of victory lose it's lustre and become tarnished with political posturing over the years 1945.
Then we move into Iraq, an illegal war, but one that needed to be fought never the less, to remove a tryrant from power who threatened to bring the world to economic collapse with his control and manipulation of 25% of the world's oil supply (the fact that we've had newer technology that would reduce our dependence on Middle Eastern oil is naother topic for debate and how many men would not have died had those technologies not been supressed by successive governments who did everything within their power to maintain the industry that the combustion engine provides).
Yes, I remember the individual men who have died, men who had lives, families, children and a future. And hopes that were cruelly snuffed out by men in power who didn't give adamn about the ones left behind to grieve for why should have been but can now never be.
Don't ask me to wear a poppy because I won't, but they have my respect for the personal sacrifice they made, whether they chose to do it or not."
all i can add to that is thank goodness you are in the minority but i suppose you are entitled to your opinion whether we like it or not.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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our brave forces do not choose there conflicts ,poloticians do that, were remembering our fallen and with great pride knowing that we have the best forces on the planet , ref the hitler ww2 post, the invasion plans had been drawn hence our brave @allied forces pilots in battle ov britain, watchin the young wounded on tv n how they cope? Brit n proud ov u all , thank you ! |
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"a very dignified ceremony.
x"
I totally agree with you _iew,
I have watched this ceremony every year for nearly all of my life ,I never feel pride for the dead,just sadness,I do feel pride for the old timers who still march ,but even that is tinged with sadness now as i can see the numbers of people marching increasing again.
If as a nation we do not remember the loss of lives of comrades and our people,then they truly would have died for nothing.
ps)wishy by jumping from ww2 to iraq you mised out the thousands in korea,Malaya,Aden ,Cyprus and the falklands.respect your right to an opinion though. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"i wonder how many years it will continue
no one seems to give thought to the soldiers we lost wnen bodica fought the romans in st albans or those that lost there lives fighting the beserkers and in the norman conquest , civil war etc etc
500 years from now , wars since 1914 will most likely be just an essay to write about in an O level exam "
only if its aloud to be forgotten..we will remmeber as long as there is the will to do so..long may it continue |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"the names are being rolled up the screen of the fallen in the last 12 months..
very moving and all such a waste of life.
such a very dignified ceremony.
xxx"
It brings into plain sight how many have given the greatest sacrifice to ensure we have our liberty and freedom. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"i wonder how many years it will continue
no one seems to give thought to the soldiers we lost wnen bodica fought the romans in st albans or those that lost there lives fighting the beserkers and in the norman conquest , civil war etc etc
500 years from now , wars since 1914 will most likely be just an essay to write about in an O level exam "
hmmm.in a quandry now. My surname is specific to Normandy.one of my ancestors signed the magna carta. am i a poppy wearer or an aggressor  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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id also like to add that the post referring to world war one,although a good point is made on the reasons, the point is the troops did there duty and died with honour in god awful conditions ...to say any thing less is a discredit to there memory and sacrifice..
also remember,yes men were shot for cowardice but the home front were as guilty with white feathers and shame on men and families to chaps that didnt want to fight.
It was just the way it was...
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" For now, I cannot bring myself to pay my respects to a wasted generation who died for no other reason than the whims of the elite."
It's about respect for the troops who "gave their today for your tomorrow" not the politicians. You negate your own logic. About a thank you and commemoration of those who never got the chance to come back.
You're entitled to your opinion, yes. I'm entitled to mine. I'll keep it to myself and remember it next time I'm carrying one of my muckers back down that ramp. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"ps)wishy by jumping from ww2 to iraq you mised out the thousands in korea,Malaya,Aden ,Cyprus and the falklands.respect your right to an opinion though."
Yes, I know I skipped Korea, Malaya etc but I didn't want the post to get too long and I think you got my general drift anyway.
Sometimes you have to spell everything out in minute detail and in black and white on these forums just in case someone decides to deliberately misconstrue what you DO say because of what you DON'T say.
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"ps)wishy by jumping from ww2 to iraq you mised out the thousands in korea,Malaya,Aden ,Cyprus and the falklands.respect your right to an opinion though.
Yes, I know I skipped Korea, Malaya etc but I didn't want the post to get too long and I think you got my general drift anyway.
Sometimes you have to spell everything out in minute detail and in black and white on these forums just in case someone decides to deliberately misconstrue what you DO say because of what you DON'T say.
"
fair enough ,it was a long post anyway ,one question though, i thought the 306 shot for cowardice were quite rightly pardoned by the govt of the day in 2006 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"i wonder how many years it will continue
no one seems to give thought to the soldiers we lost wnen bodica fought the romans in st albans or those that lost there lives fighting the beserkers and in the norman conquest , civil war etc etc
500 years from now , wars since 1914 will most likely be just an essay to write about in an O level exam "
Rememberance is what you make it and for me it is to remember all brave people who died defending family and home. No one can tell you what to think or what to remember. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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seigfried sassoon
Aftermath
(March 1919)
Have you forgotten yet? ...
For the world's events have rumbled on since those gagged days,
Like traffic checked while at the crossing of city-ways:
And the haunted gap in your mind has filled with thoughts that flow
Like clouds in the lit heaven of life; and you're a man reprieved to go,
Taking your peaceful share of Time, with joy to spare.
But the past is just the same - and War's a bloody game ...
Have you forgotten yet? ...
Look down, and swear by the slain of the War that you'll never forget.
Do you remember the dark months you held the sector at Mametz -
The nights you watched and wired and dug and piled sandbags on parapets?
Do you remember the rats; and the stench
of corpses rotting in front of the front-line trench -
And dawn coming, dirty-white, and chill with a hopeless rain?
Do you ever stop and ask, "Is it all going to happen again?"
Do you remember the hour of din before the attack -
And the anger, the blind compassion that seized and shook you
As you peered at the doomed and haggard faces of your men?
Do you remember the stretcher-cases lurching back
With dying eyes and lolling heads - those ashen-grey
Masks of the lads who once were keen and kind and gay?
Have you forgotten yet? ...
Look up, and swear by the green of the spring that you'll never forget.
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By *ezebelWoman
over a year ago
North of The Wall - youll need your vest |
I went to the local cenotaph this morning and was amazed at the number of people there from all different generations.
My Mum and Dad used to go every year without fail and, now I no longer have them, I go in their place. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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11/11 is not something I politicise, it is, for me about respect for all our troops past and present, for the sacrifices they make in my name.
They are all sooo brave, and I thank them. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"ps)wishy by jumping from ww2 to iraq you mised out the thousands in korea,Malaya,Aden ,Cyprus and the falklands.respect your right to an opinion though.
Yes, I know I skipped Korea, Malaya etc but I didn't want the post to get too long and I think you got my general drift anyway.
Sometimes you have to spell everything out in minute detail and in black and white on these forums just in case someone decides to deliberately misconstrue what you DO say because of what you DON'T say.
fair enough ,it was a long post anyway ,one question though, i thought the 306 shot for cowardice were quite rightly pardoned by the govt of the day in 2006"
I remember reading/seeing something about that a few years ago but couldn't recall if it was specific cases or all of them, which is why I didn't mention it. Some men were accused of cowardice simply because the doctors of the day had never heard of shell-shock or battle fatigue. Some men in the trenches had horrendous foot rot and could barely walk yet were still ordered over the top.
Britain lost 833,000 servicemen in WW1 and most of them were due to being used as cannon fodder by stupid generals who learned the art of war on the playing fields of Eton. Can you imagine the outrage there would be today if the pride of our nation were lost by that amount now.
It sickens me to think that we remember these men but, as said in a post above, nothing is said about the man responsible for sending so many of them to their doom sits astride a bronze horse overlooking the monument erected to his folly. It's an insult to their memory to have Haig's statue as representation of the fallen heroes of WW1. It is interesting to note that if the dead could march, in continuous procession down Whitehall, it would take them four days and nights to get past the pompous twat responsible for sending so many of them to their needless deaths. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Those who have fallen deserve our rememberance for they have allowed the people of this country the freedom of speech that is crushed elsewhere
Those not buying a poppy should hang their heads in shame - remember the money raised goes to help ex-servicemen who fought bravely for this country
If you seek to admonish then attack the cowards that sit in Westminster and most of all Blair |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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At the Centotaph
I saw the Prince of Darkness, with his Staff,
Standing bare-headed by the Cenotaph:
Unostentatious and respectful, there
He stood, and offered up the following prayer.
'Make them forget, O Lord, what this Memorial
Means; their discredited ideas revive;
Breed new belief that War is purgatorial
Proof of the pride and power of being alive;
Men's biologic urge to readjust
The Map of Europe, Lord of Hosts, increase;
Lift up their hearts in large destructive lust;
And crown their heads with blind vindictive Peace.'
The Prince of Darkness to the Cenotaph
Bowed. As he walked away I heard him laugh.
Siegfried Sassoon |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"ps)wishy by jumping from ww2 to iraq you mised out the thousands in korea,Malaya,Aden ,Cyprus and the falklands.respect your right to an opinion though.
Yes, I know I skipped Korea, Malaya etc but I didn't want the post to get too long and I think you got my general drift anyway.
Sometimes you have to spell everything out in minute detail and in black and white on these forums just in case someone decides to deliberately misconstrue what you DO say because of what you DON'T say.
fair enough ,it was a long post anyway ,one question though, i thought the 306 shot for cowardice were quite rightly pardoned by the govt of the day in 2006
I remember reading/seeing something about that a few years ago but couldn't recall if it was specific cases or all of them, which is why I didn't mention it. Some men were accused of cowardice simply because the doctors of the day had never heard of shell-shock or battle fatigue. Some men in the trenches had horrendous foot rot and could barely walk yet were still ordered over the top.
Britain lost 833,000 servicemen in WW1 and most of them were due to being used as cannon fodder by stupid generals who learned the art of war on the playing fields of Eton. Can you imagine the outrage there would be today if the pride of our nation were lost by that amount now.
It sickens me to think that we remember these men but, as said in a post above, nothing is said about the man responsible for sending so many of them to their doom sits astride a bronze horse overlooking the monument erected to his folly. It's an insult to their memory to have Haig's statue as representation of the fallen heroes of WW1. It is interesting to note that if the dead could march, in continuous procession down Whitehall, it would take them four days and nights to get past the pompous twat responsible for sending so many of them to their needless deaths."
I respect your right to an opinion and your wright(spelling!?) to voice it but feel that the tone of this thread is being hijacked by you, sorry.
Today is about the fallen, the everyman, and the everyday persons appreciation for it. Please, save the politics for tomorrow xx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I respect your right to an opinion and your wright(spelling!?) to voice it but feel that the tone of this thread is being hijacked by you, sorry.
Today is about the fallen, the everyman, and the everyday persons appreciation for it. Please, save the politics for tomorrow xx"
The OP never asked for gooey 'bless them all' type posts only so I have as much right to voice my opinion as you do. I do think about fallen soldiers, but not just on one day, I think about them each time I see coffins being driven through Wootton Bassett, when I think to myself, "my brother in law could end up in one of them," as he is out in Afghanistan as we speak.
If all these men died defending our right to free speech please let me exercise that right in my own way, as you have yours. Ta. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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".........
Britain lost 833,000 servicemen in WW1 and most of them were due to being used as cannon fodder by stupid generals who learned the art of war on the playing fields of Eton. Can you imagine the outrage there would be today if the pride of our nation were lost by that amount now................."
The scary bit is that we now have a cabinet where many of them learned everything they hold dear on those self same playing fields. |
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By *acreadCouple
over a year ago
central scotland |
I watched a ducumentary afew months ago about the last day of the war as although the armistice was signed quite a few hrs before it came into force on 11th hour 11 day 11th month evryone knew it was over and still mainly although a lot of generals told the men to stand down a lot off them mainly American and British wanted to "Teach the Germans one last lesson" and sent their men over the top right up until the last minute. In some regions the Germans were screaming for them to go back as they didnt want to fire on them but probably had no choice and as a result more of them died on the last day than did on DDay.
The deaths on the last day were all backdated so as to show no one died on the 11th but a few Generals were charged with dereliction of duty and the charge were later brushed aside.
Lions led by donkeys is a very true statement in this case. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Atrocities
You told me, in your d*unken-boasting mood,
How once you butchered prisoners. That was good!
I'm sure you felt no pity while they stood
Patient and cowed and scared, as prisoners should.
How did you do them in? Come, don't be shy:
You know I love to hear how Germans die,
Downstairs in dug-outs. 'Camerad!' they cry;
Then squeal like stoats when bombs begin to fly.
And you? I know your record. You went sick
When orders looked unwholesome: then, with trick
And lie, you wangled home. And here you are,
Still talking big and boozing in a bar.
Siegfried Sassoon
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"Atrocities
You told me, in your d*unken-boasting mood,
How once you butchered prisoners. That was good!
I'm sure you felt no pity while they stood
Patient and cowed and scared, as prisoners should.
How did you do them in? Come, don't be shy:
You know I love to hear how Germans die,
Downstairs in dug-outs. 'Camerad!' they cry;
Then squeal like stoats when bombs begin to fly.
And you? I know your record. You went sick
When orders looked unwholesome: then, with trick
And lie, you wangled home. And here you are,
Still talking big and boozing in a bar.
Siegfried Sassoon
"
is he connected to Vidal  |
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