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English votes for English Laws, EVEL...
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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So the Scottish MP's do not want the English MP's to be able to vote on their own laws after trying their hardest to become independent of the UK as a whole. As it will effect Scotland... Will Scottish MP's changing how their taxes are collected and spent not have an effect on the rest of the UK? Obviously just one simplistic example but they do seem to want their cake and to eat it, still. Surely if the Scottish can vote on certain legislation in their part of the UK then they should be excluded from voting on those parts of legislation affecting that legislation in the rest of the UK? |
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But if I'm half-Scottish, does that only mean I get half a vote?
I can see both sides to the argument, but worry more about nationalists from both sides using it as an excuse to cause trouble, and political parties using it to gerrymander.
I'm not quite sure how Westminster would work those times when the PM doesn't have a majority in England.(Though that might not necessarily be a bad thing )
Mr ddc |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"But if I'm half-Scottish, does that only mean I get half a vote?
I can see both sides to the argument, but worry more about nationalists from both sides using it as an excuse to cause trouble, and political parties using it to gerrymander.
I'm not quite sure how Westminster would work those times when the PM doesn't have a majority in England.(Though that might not necessarily be a bad thing)
Mr ddc"
Cameron not having a majority can only be a good thing IMO  Not that the SNP is going to bolster many of his efforts if they are allowed to vote, I'm guessing. |
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"
Mr ddc
Cameron not having a majority can only be a good thing IMO Not that the SNP is going to bolster many of his efforts if they are allowed to vote, I'm guessing."
?
Cameron does have a majority though, so the SNP are relatively mute.
My point relates rather to a hypothetical future election (or the last Labour government had these proposals been in place then) |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
Mr ddc
Cameron not having a majority can only be a good thing IMO Not that the SNP is going to bolster many of his efforts if they are allowed to vote, I'm guessing.
?
Cameron does have a majority though, so the SNP are relatively mute.
My point relates rather to a hypothetical future election (or the last Labour government had these proposals been in place then)"
If every cons mp votes as he wants them to, he has a majority, it doesn't take many rebels for that majority to disappear though. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Mr ddc
Cameron not having a majority can only be a good thing IMO Not that the SNP is going to bolster many of his efforts if they are allowed to vote, I'm guessing.
?
Cameron does have a majority though, so the SNP are relatively mute.
My point relates rather to a hypothetical future election (or the last Labour government had these proposals been in place then)
If every cons mp votes as he wants them to, he has a majority, it doesn't take many rebels for that majority to disappear though. "
Take the Scottish votes out of the equation and his majority would be overwhelming. |
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"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways."
Typical response from you Onny.
I don't care about English votes for English laws. It's right and proper. It's English votes on the Scottish bill that's pissing me off. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways.
Typical response from you Onny.
I don't care about English votes for English laws. It's right and proper. It's English votes on the Scottish bill that's pissing me off. "
There have to be English votes on the Scottish bill. And Welsh. And Northern Irish. Because we're still a union and what is decided will affect the rest of that Union. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"But if I'm half-Scottish, does that only mean I get half a vote?
I can see both sides to the argument, but worry more about nationalists from both sides using it as an excuse to cause trouble, and political parties using it to gerrymander.
I'm not quite sure how Westminster would work those times when the PM doesn't have a majority in England.(Though that might not necessarily be a bad thing)
Mr ddc"
Both sides, especially the Nats, ARE using it to try cause trouble.
Talk to even the most rabid cybernats and you can sense their frustration that even with 56 out of 59 MPs, they are wholly impotent in the House of Commons. |
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"
...
If every cons mp votes as he wants them to, he has a majority, it doesn't take many rebels for that majority to disappear though. "
Which is the beauty of democracy: having to negotiate in order to get what you want.
Just a shame Labour always run a three-line whip when it comes to opposing everything, and there aren't enough LibDems, so he'll end up negotiating with the loonies on the right.
Just like John Major did. 
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways.
Typical response from you Onny.
I don't care about English votes for English laws. It's right and proper. It's English votes on the Scottish bill that's pissing me off. "
English votes on Scottish bills piss you off but Scottish votes on English/ Welsh bills is OK?
See what I mean about wanting it both ways? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways.
Typical response from you Onny.
I don't care about English votes for English laws. It's right and proper. It's English votes on the Scottish bill that's pissing me off. "
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways.
Typical response from you Onny.
I don't care about English votes for English laws. It's right and proper. It's English votes on the Scottish bill that's pissing me off.
English votes on Scottish bills piss you off but Scottish votes on English/ Welsh bills is OK?
See what I mean about wanting it both ways?"
Onny voted for the working mans party,Labour,yet collects his benefits every week.
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways.
Typical response from you Onny.
I don't care about English votes for English laws. It's right and proper. It's English votes on the Scottish bill that's pissing me off.
English votes on Scottish bills piss you off but Scottish votes on English/ Welsh bills is OK?
See what I mean about wanting it both ways?Onny voted for the working mans party,Labour,yet collects his benefits every week.
"
My 'benefits' amount to an auld bastard's bus pass. |
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"
Both sides, especially the Nats, ARE using it to try cause trouble.
"
The Scottish Nats are just trying to find an excuse to hold another referendum.
The English Nats are far worse imo.
I just hope we don't end up with yet another layer of MPs and the associated gravy train. We already have town, district, county, Westminster and European, all I want is someone to empty the bins and mend the road ffs! |
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All of this is why, as an English person I wanted Scots to vote for Independence.
The current Scots Govt & SNP MP's in Westminster have absolutely no interest in working with the wider Union & will actively obstruct wherever possible. Best solution for the UK is being separate from Scotland, may well bring a little pain in the short term but longer term the UK will be better off. I don't just refer to finances, but to forward stability & being rid of distractions & tantrums from Holyrood. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"
Both sides, especially the Nats, ARE using it to try cause trouble.
The Scottish Nats are just trying to find an excuse to hold another referendum.
............!"
I'm not so sure. They'll get their arses kicked again for sure and the 56 MPs won't be keen on putting their £67,xxx on the line. |
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It isn't English votes for English laws, because half of the voters in England have no representative in parliament ie their MP isn't someone they voted for, so let's no pretend this is democracy because it's nothing of the sort
A true EVEL would be an English Parliament elected by a proportional method, the current bill is designed to give the governing party more control under the pretence of something else |
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"
Both sides, especially the Nats, ARE using it to try cause trouble.
The Scottish Nats are just trying to find an excuse to hold another referendum.
............!
I'm not so sure. They'll get their arses kicked again for sure and the 56 MPs won't be keen on putting their £67,xxx on the line."
That was the bit I never understood.
Beforehand, one MP was paid 60 grand to make all the decisions relating to his constituency, now it takes 2 people, costing twice as much?
Eventually I can see us ending up with some sort of federal system, but I can't see why the same individual can't do both jobs (which, from what I can make out, is what this proposal does) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Someone should ask Salmon and Sturgeon exactly what their end game is, because I don't think they have a Scooby Doo. They are like a mule with a spinning wheel....
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It isn't English votes for English laws, because half of the voters in England have no representative in parliament ie their MP isn't someone they voted for, so let's no pretend this is democracy because it's nothing of the sort
A true EVEL would be an English Parliament elected by a proportional method, the current bill is designed to give the governing party more control under the pretence of something else "
Isn't the point of democracy that you accept the result if it's what the majority voted for, even if that's not what you personally voted for? |
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"It isn't English votes for English laws, because half of the voters in England have no representative in parliament ie their MP isn't someone they voted for, so let's no pretend this is democracy because it's nothing of the sort
A true EVEL would be an English Parliament elected by a proportional method, the current bill is designed to give the governing party more control under the pretence of something else
Isn't the point of democracy that you accept the result if it's what the majority voted for, even if that's not what you personally voted for? "
The key word there is majority, 59% of the English electorate didn't vote conservative, so surely by your argument they shouldn't be allowed to decide what happens in England? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It isn't English votes for English laws, because half of the voters in England have no representative in parliament ie their MP isn't someone they voted for, so let's no pretend this is democracy because it's nothing of the sort
A true EVEL would be an English Parliament elected by a proportional method, the current bill is designed to give the governing party more control under the pretence of something else
Isn't the point of democracy that you accept the result if it's what the majority voted for, even if that's not what you personally voted for?
The key word there is majority, 59% of the English electorate didn't vote conservative, so surely by your argument they shouldn't be allowed to decide what happens in England?"
But that 59% didn't vote for any one thing. Out of those who voted, those who voted conservative were the largest grouping, so to me it's eminently fair that they wield the greatest influence. Same as it was when it was a Labour majority.
If PR or some variant of it was the system we had, then fair enough. But would you accept all that will entail, e.g. a large influence for UKIP? I would. But most who shout the loudest with anti-Tory rhetoric say they wouldn't. |
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The didn't vote for one thing, but one thing they didn't vote for was EVEL designed by a single political party to favour their influence
EVEL suggests in the name that it's mean to represent the view of the English, which the current system proposed doesn't by a long way
And as for ukip whilst I didn't vote for them and disagree with them on many issues, if their view is at a level high enough then their voters voice deserves to be heard |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The didn't vote for one thing, but one thing they didn't vote for was EVEL designed by a single political party to favour their influence
EVEL suggests in the name that it's mean to represent the view of the English, which the current system proposed doesn't by a long way
And as for ukip whilst I didn't vote for them and disagree with them on many issues, if their view is at a level high enough then their voters voice deserves to be heard"
The conservative majority in England is more overwhelming than the conservative majority in the UK. Arguably therefore, the EVEL as put forward by that party are more representative of English voters' wishes than the status quo is. |
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"The didn't vote for one thing, but one thing they didn't vote for was EVEL designed by a single political party to favour their influence
EVEL suggests in the name that it's mean to represent the view of the English, which the current system proposed doesn't by a long way
And as for ukip whilst I didn't vote for them and disagree with them on many issues, if their view is at a level high enough then their voters voice deserves to be heard
The conservative majority in England is more overwhelming than the conservative majority in the UK. Arguably therefore, the EVEL as put forward by that party are more representative of English voters' wishes than the status quo is."
Except even in England 59% of people who voted didn't vote for parties proposing the current EVEL proposal, so you can't say there is any majority in favour of it in any usual sense of the word majority
Really big constitutional changes, like altering how the country is run, should be by referendum as the AV referendum was done so sneaked through because it favours the current party in charge |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Typical SNP. They can do one.
Labour also don't want it because usually they have relied on winning scottish seats to get a majority government. EVEL would mean that Labour would almost certainly never get another law passed -ever. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"It isn't English votes for English laws, because half of the voters in England have no representative in parliament ie their MP isn't someone they voted for, so let's no pretend this is democracy because it's nothing of the sort
A true EVEL would be an English Parliament elected by a proportional method, the current bill is designed to give the governing party more control under the pretence of something else
Isn't the point of democracy that you accept the result if it's what the majority voted for, even if that's not what you personally voted for? "
Tell that to the 45%! |
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"Typical SNP. They can do one.
Labour also don't want it because usually they have relied on winning scottish seats to get a majority government. EVEL would mean that Labour would almost certainly never get another law passed -ever. "
Factually inaccurate, Scottish results have not altered the vast majority of general election results in the last century, Blair would've still won 3 elections with an independent Scotland, just with a smaller majority but still with one |
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The objection by the SNP at Westminster to the EU referendum was a case in point, it was desirable that Scots be offered the vote on their future within a Union but unacceptable that people from the rest of the UK be able to make a similar choice.
That shows to me that the SNP are only concerned about democracy when it suits them to do so.
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"The objection by the SNP at Westminster to the EU referendum was a case in point, it was desirable that Scots be offered the vote on their future within a Union but unacceptable that people from the rest of the UK be able to make a similar choice.
That shows to me that the SNP are only concerned about democracy when it suits them to do so.
"
I wouldn't argue with that view of the SNP, but using undemocratic means to teach the SNP a lesson isn't how our democracy should work |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
The really funny but is that the SNP. insist that not only the whole UK vote to leave or to stay in the EU, but that each individual part vote the same way.
Kinda takes the Kremlinology out of the West Lothian Question, don't it? |
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"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways.
Typical response from you Onny.
I don't care about English votes for English laws. It's right and proper. It's English votes on the Scottish bill that's pissing me off.
English votes on Scottish bills piss you off but Scottish votes on English/ Welsh bills is OK?
See what I mean about wanting it both ways?"
That's not what I said Onny. I think it's right and proper that there are English votes for English laws. Which is what I said. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways.
Typical response from you Onny.
I don't care about English votes for English laws. It's right and proper. It's English votes on the Scottish bill that's pissing me off.
English votes on Scottish bills piss you off but Scottish votes on English/ Welsh bills is OK?
See what I mean about wanting it both ways?Onny voted for the working mans party,Labour,yet collects his benefits every week.
My 'benefits' amount to an auld bastard's bus pass."
Bullshit,you forget we know you
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways."
Think you will find it was Alistair Carmichael that started raising the latest complaints, but you already know that, your just trying to stir again |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways.
Typical response from you Onny.
I don't care about English votes for English laws. It's right and proper. It's English votes on the Scottish bill that's pissing me off.
English votes on Scottish bills piss you off but Scottish votes on English/ Welsh bills is OK?
See what I mean about wanting it both ways?Onny voted for the working mans party,Labour,yet collects his benefits every week.
My 'benefits' amount to an auld bastard's bus pass.Bullshit,you forget we know you
"
I believe you have me confused with someone else. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"But if I'm half-Scottish, does that only mean I get half a vote?
I can see both sides to the argument, but worry more about nationalists from both sides using it as an excuse to cause trouble, and political parties using it to gerrymander.
I'm not quite sure how Westminster would work those times when the PM doesn't have a majority in England.(Though that might not necessarily be a bad thing)
Mr ddc
Both sides, especially the Nats, ARE using it to try cause trouble.
Talk to even the most rabid cybernats and you can sense their frustration that even with 56 out of 59 MPs, they are wholly impotent in the House of Commons."
Rabid cybernats. A step up from your usual vile 'Smartisms'. Progress I suppose. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"But if I'm half-Scottish, does that only mean I get half a vote?
I can see both sides to the argument, but worry more about nationalists from both sides using it as an excuse to cause trouble, and political parties using it to gerrymander.
I'm not quite sure how Westminster would work those times when the PM doesn't have a majority in England.(Though that might not necessarily be a bad thing)
Mr ddc
Both sides, especially the Nats, ARE using it to try cause trouble.
Talk to even the most rabid cybernats and you can sense their frustration that even with 56 out of 59 MPs, they are wholly impotent in the House of Commons.
Rabid cybernats. A step up from your usual vile 'Smartisms'. Progress I suppose. "
I sense a bit of frustration in some of the Nat supporters posting here too. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Not 'Scottish' MPs. SNP MPs.
They want it both/ all ways.
Typical response from you Onny.
I don't care about English votes for English laws. It's right and proper. It's English votes on the Scottish bill that's pissing me off.
English votes on Scottish bills piss you off but Scottish votes on English/ Welsh bills is OK?
See what I mean about wanting it both ways?Onny voted for the working mans party,Labour,yet collects his benefits every week.
My 'benefits' amount to an auld bastard's bus pass.Bullshit,you forget we know you
I believe you have me confused with someone else."
Im certainly not confused
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