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Is that what we call I or me, just a thought?
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I am me in my own subjective reality. You are a construct of my perceptions."
But what is the " I ", you are referring to in you message? Observe your thoughts and tell me what happens. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Me, myself, I just because I'm not you.
But what is " I "?"
Ninth letter of the alphabet.
Personally, "I" think that it refers to the mish mash of thoughts, feelings and sensations that could be the mind or the soul, which could just be the electrical impulses of muscles and the physical stuff all moving in tandem.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Me, myself, I just because I'm not you.
But what is " I "?"
If you do not know who or what you are, that is very sad. First get to like yourself and then everything else falls in to place. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Me, myself, I just because I'm not you.
But what is " I "?
Ninth letter of the alphabet.
Personally, "I" think that it refers to the mish mash of thoughts, feelings and sensations that could be the mind or the soul, which could just be the electrical impulses of muscles and the physical stuff all moving in tandem.
"
Including the " I " that thinks that? |
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By *igeiaWoman
over a year ago
Bristol |
"I am me in my own subjective reality. You are a construct of my perceptions.
But what is the " I ", you are referring to in you message? Observe your thoughts and tell me what happens."
The act of observation affects that which is being observed so what happens may vary as a result... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Me, myself, I just because I'm not you.
But what is " I "?
If you do not know who or what you are, that is very sad. First get to like yourself and then everything else falls in to place."
Does anybody really know who or what they are, or do they just think they do? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I am me in my own subjective reality. You are a construct of my perceptions.
But what is the " I ", you are referring to in you message? Observe your thoughts and tell me what happens.
The act of observation affects that which is being observed so what happens may vary as a result..."
Try it, observe your thoughts and tell me what happens. |
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By *opinovMan
over a year ago
Point Nemo, Cumbria |
"Me, myself, I just because I'm not you.
"
I completely disagree...
You may, indeed, be me and I you... and everybody else too.
It makes perfect sense that we are all just a single conscious embodiment's of the universe - it's soul, if you like. Each manifestation having no conflict of overlap by its apparent overlap in time and space as we, in this form, perceive it.
Time, as far as the universe's consciousness is concerned, may be irrelevant.
We know time is not absolute in its transit because we can demonstrate its variance by such factors as gravity and velocity, so it's no great leap to understand that it could be at least as equally as variable to something as ethereal as a single universal soul. That same soul could inhabit each of us, experiencing each lifetime separately as though in isolation, without having to conform to any constraint imposed by our linear perception of time or space.
So, yes, for the sake of this thread I choose to believe you are me... and I also choose to believe that, if the whole world believed that, we would do far less harm to one another.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Your a bunch of memories, some of them false.
We're getting there!"
Lol, can't remember who said it (probably Neil DeGrasse Tyson) but we're meatbags floating on a rock in space. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Unlike physical reality, which begs to be deconstructed down to its component parts, the "I" has no obvious composition, there is no clear sense in which we can point at anything as being a basic building block of the "I". So "I" is really just a being in time, a conscious awareness coupled with a stream of experiences which appear to be coming from an external reality which may or may not exist, situated within a wider fantastical world of imagined memories, hopes, fears, and pure invention. There is no distinction between any of this... it all just melts into one big blob of experiencing. There is, however, a sense of something behind it... perhaps the unconscious... or perhaps a greater consciousness beyond our small perspective. As for the existence of the body? Like everything else in the external universe, it certainly seems to exist but there doesn't appear to be any way of proving it.
Perhaps another intriguing question is... how is it possible for us conscious beings to imagine something that doesn't exist? Have a think about it and you'll find its a real head masher  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We are more than thought. Thoughts can be manipulated. We have the power of reason and the ability to make free choices. We are able to love unconditionally, to laugh uncontrollably and feel grief at the loss of a loved one that never really goes away. We have a conscience that tells us that hurting others is wrong yet have the power to supress it. We are complex and amazing and all originals. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Perhaps another intriguing question is... how is it possible for us conscious beings to imagine something that doesn't exist? Have a think about it and you'll find its a real head masher "
You can't. Everything imaginary is based on things that are already possible or already exist. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Perhaps another intriguing question is... how is it possible for us conscious beings to imagine something that doesn't exist? Have a think about it and you'll find its a real head masher
You can't. Everything imaginary is based on things that are already possible or already exist."
You're quite right that a large amount of imagination involves taking the attribute from one thing and putting it with something else... a talking horse for example. However, there are some things which seem to defy this... such as black holes, time machines, and God. These things do not obviously exist... and may not even be possible. Also, although they are the result of thousands of years of progress, Mozart's Requiem or Kandinsky's abstract works are very much human creations with no referent in nature.
How then can an ape, evolved to survive life on Earth, having been given only enough of a brain to survive with, have ended up with a brain which can invent things which don't exist? |
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By *arry247Couple
over a year ago
Wakefield |
I think, I think I am, therefore I am, I think.
Of course you are my bright little star,
I've miles
And miles
Of files
Pretty files of your forefather's fruit
and now to suit our great computer,
You're magnetic ink.
I'm more than that, I know I am, at least, I think I must be.
There you go man, keep as cool as you can.
Face piles
And piles
Of trials
With smiles.
It riles them to believe
that you perceive the web they weave
And keep on thinking free.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Perhaps another intriguing question is... how is it possible for us conscious beings to imagine something that doesn't exist? Have a think about it and you'll find its a real head masher
You can't. Everything imaginary is based on things that are already possible or already exist.
You're quite right that a large amount of imagination involves taking the attribute from one thing and putting it with something else... a talking horse for example. However, there are some things which seem to defy this... such as black holes, time machines, and God. These things do not obviously exist... and may not even be possible. Also, although they are the result of thousands of years of progress, Mozart's Requiem or Kandinsky's abstract works are very much human creations with no referent in nature.
How then can an ape, evolved to survive life on Earth, having been given only enough of a brain to survive with, have ended up with a brain which can invent things which don't exist? "
We've never been apes, we're homo sapiens.
Music is organised noise, noise exists.
Langugae, we have the organs to use language and the brain to categorise things, that's all.
Although everything seems mysterious and amazing we just haven't got the ability to examine everything we observe yet, and we can't even observe everything correctly yet either so that doesn't help. But, based on scientific rules we already have, we can 'imagine' what some things are. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Perhaps another intriguing question is... how is it possible for us conscious beings to imagine something that doesn't exist? Have a think about it and you'll find its a real head masher
You can't. Everything imaginary is based on things that are already possible or already exist.
You're quite right that a large amount of imagination involves taking the attribute from one thing and putting it with something else... a talking horse for example. However, there are some things which seem to defy this... such as black holes, time machines, and God. These things do not obviously exist... and may not even be possible. Also, although they are the result of thousands of years of progress, Mozart's Requiem or Kandinsky's abstract works are very much human creations with no referent in nature.
How then can an ape, evolved to survive life on Earth, having been given only enough of a brain to survive with, have ended up with a brain which can invent things which don't exist?
We've never been apes, we're homo sapiens.
Music is organised noise, noise exists.
Langugae, we have the organs to use language and the brain to categorise things, that's all.
Although everything seems mysterious and amazing we just haven't got the ability to examine everything we observe yet, and we can't even observe everything correctly yet either so that doesn't help. But, based on scientific rules we already have, we can 'imagine' what some things are."
Lol You're just describing the problem not solving it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Perhaps another intriguing question is... how is it possible for us conscious beings to imagine something that doesn't exist? Have a think about it and you'll find its a real head masher
You can't. Everything imaginary is based on things that are already possible or already exist.
You're quite right that a large amount of imagination involves taking the attribute from one thing and putting it with something else... a talking horse for example. However, there are some things which seem to defy this... such as black holes, time machines, and God. These things do not obviously exist... and may not even be possible. Also, although they are the result of thousands of years of progress, Mozart's Requiem or Kandinsky's abstract works are very much human creations with no referent in nature.
How then can an ape, evolved to survive life on Earth, having been given only enough of a brain to survive with, have ended up with a brain which can invent things which don't exist? "
I think you have answered your own question by contradicting yourself! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Perhaps another intriguing question is... how is it possible for us conscious beings to imagine something that doesn't exist? Have a think about it and you'll find its a real head masher
You can't. Everything imaginary is based on things that are already possible or already exist.
You're quite right that a large amount of imagination involves taking the attribute from one thing and putting it with something else... a talking horse for example. However, there are some things which seem to defy this... such as black holes, time machines, and God. These things do not obviously exist... and may not even be possible. Also, although they are the result of thousands of years of progress, Mozart's Requiem or Kandinsky's abstract works are very much human creations with no referent in nature.
How then can an ape, evolved to survive life on Earth, having been given only enough of a brain to survive with, have ended up with a brain which can invent things which don't exist?
We've never been apes, we're homo sapiens.
Music is organised noise, noise exists.
Langugae, we have the organs to use language and the brain to categorise things, that's all.
Although everything seems mysterious and amazing we just haven't got the ability to examine everything we observe yet, and we can't even observe everything correctly yet either so that doesn't help. But, based on scientific rules we already have, we can 'imagine' what some things are.
Lol You're just describing the problem not solving it "
What problem? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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First a simple problem...
Imagine a sun made of jelly bears that glows darkness out into space whilst whistling the theme tune to Miami Vice.
This sun neither exists nor, I think we can safely say, is it possible. So what is the evolutionary advantage of being able to imagine such a sun?
Considering this is one of the questions troubling evolutionary scientists at the moment I'd be a bit sceptical of forum members who profess to know the solution |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I'm going to buy a book called Tantra...I hope this helps me, discover who I am. "
Try the experiment, observe your thoughts and tell me what happens. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Hard Problem" - Consciousness.
A few years ago I had a near death experience, no pulse for thirty minutes according to a doctor. In the ambulance I watched the young woman EMT try to save me, she thought I'd had a heart attack. I watched my body from the other side of the ambulance!
As I watched her my "being" was filled with incredible empathy for her that rode on top of a solid serenity.
But, how could I have watched myself and the EMT from that distance when my body was unconscious?
Seeing with no optical sensory activity?
While being resuscitated I noticed her on a hall filled with people. How?
Can consciousness be separate from our body?
This is the "Hard Problem".
Life is Wicked Good ~ LOVE ~
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"First a simple problem...
Imagine a sun made of jelly bears that glows darkness out into space whilst whistling the theme tune to Miami Vice.
This sun neither exists nor, I think we can safely say, is it possible. So what is the evolutionary advantage of being able to imagine such a sun?
Considering this is one of the questions troubling evolutionary scientists at the moment I'd be a bit sceptical of forum members who profess to know the solution "
Seriously? Maybe re-read my replies and your own coz no question was asked to me about this stuff.
I was explaining that we cannot imagine anything that doesn't exist.
Jelly beans exist, the sun exists, darkness exists (or not but you know what i mean), and so does the miami vice theme tune. You're just using things that already exist to make up something that hasn't been created. Use the words creation, created and don't use exist, that'd help.
 |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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""The Hard Problem" - Consciousness.
A few years ago I had a near death experience, no pulse for thirty minutes according to a doctor. In the ambulance I watched the young woman EMT try to save me, she thought I'd had a heart attack. I watched my body from the other side of the ambulance!
As I watched her my "being" was filled with incredible empathy for her that rode on top of a solid serenity.
But, how could I have watched myself and the EMT from that distance when my body was unconscious?
Seeing with no optical sensory activity?
While being resuscitated I noticed her on a hall filled with people. How?
Can consciousness be separate from our body?
This is the "Hard Problem".
Life is Wicked Good ~ LOVE ~
"
Were you aware of whether or not you were thinking whilst watching, or was your mind silent? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"First a simple problem...
Imagine a sun made of jelly bears that glows darkness out into space whilst whistling the theme tune to Miami Vice.
This sun neither exists nor, I think we can safely say, is it possible. So what is the evolutionary advantage of being able to imagine such a sun?
Considering this is one of the questions troubling evolutionary scientists at the moment I'd be a bit sceptical of forum members who profess to know the solution "
Only just got what you mean actually, ignore that last reply about not being asked anything.
I was saying our imagination isn't really making anything that doesn't exist but coz you used the word exist i got what you meant wrong.
Yeah our imaginations are shit i guess, they create some good stuff out of already existent stuff and loads of useless crap that probably means something but nobody knows why we have one yet.
Probably so we can evolve and survive. We can imagine a bush rustling is just the wind or a man eating tiger...
now we have more leisure time we can imagine jelly bean useless suns...
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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""The Hard Problem" - Consciousness.
Were you aware of whether or not you were thinking whilst watching, or was your mind silent?"
Just extreme serenity for want of a better word and empathy (extreme compassion for the EMT who was so earnestly trying to bring me back).
There was no "me" in a manner of speaking. I suppose a "me" was sort of irrelevant. Quite difficult to relate. As intense as an LSD experience really. Words don't fit.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"First a simple problem...
Imagine a sun made of jelly bears that glows darkness out into space whilst whistling the theme tune to Miami Vice.
This sun neither exists nor, I think we can safely say, is it possible. So what is the evolutionary advantage of being able to imagine such a sun?
Considering this is one of the questions troubling evolutionary scientists at the moment I'd be a bit sceptical of forum members who profess to know the solution
Seriously? Maybe re-read my replies and your own coz no question was asked to me about this stuff.
I was explaining that we cannot imagine anything that doesn't exist.
Jelly beans exist, the sun exists, darkness exists (or not but you know what i mean), and so does the miami vice theme tune. You're just using things that already exist to make up something that hasn't been created. Use the words creation, created and don't use exist, that'd help.
"
I said that was the simple problem... i.e. what evolutionary advantage is there in mixing up things which do exist into new combinations which don't exist? It appears to be a completely redundant and useless facility.. and yet pretty much all of human culture, and even science, has sprung from it. The non-answer to it is just to say either that's just the way it is... or we just lucked out. Not surprisingly this doesn't satisfy some scientists or philosophers at this moment.
The more complex problems come when you start talking about how come humans have been able to conjure up things that don't have any referent in nature.
Followed, of course, by the problem of how humans have been able to conjure up things which they believe exist but there is no proof they exist... until they later find they exist.
All in all there is absolutely no evolutinary advantage to our being able to comprehend the workings of the universe so either we're just homo sapiens who are mistaken in our belief that we know how the universe works... or we have access to some special kind of knowledge which has somehow come to us. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Most fascinating to me is the experience of an altered, heightened awareness (a "me" or being) that seems to "be" without any body or physical component. Truly. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Only just got what you mean actually, ignore that last reply about not being asked anything.
I was saying our imagination isn't really making anything that doesn't exist but coz you used the word exist i got what you meant wrong.
Yeah our imaginations are shit i guess, they create some good stuff out of already existent stuff and loads of useless crap that probably means something but nobody knows why we have one yet.
Probably so we can evolve and survive. We can imagine a bush rustling is just the wind or a man eating tiger...
now we have more leisure time we can imagine jelly bean useless suns...
"
No worries To be honest this isn't something I've looked into that deeply but I've had one curious eye on it. An evolutionary biologist recently published a big old book called something like The Runes Of Evolution which explores some of these and other issues... but it's over 900 pages long and what I read of it is pretty dense... so that might have to wait. My current strength is in the philosophy of the mind as I'm currently reading "Mind & Cosmos" by atheist philosopher of the mind Thomas Nagel, who explores the short comings of the materialist view of the mind, and "Aping Mankind" by atheist neuroscientist Raymond Tallis, who refutes the idea that brain activity creates consciousness and argues for far greater problems in that field than materialist neuroscientists would wish their to be Both very interesting books |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The trouble with Atheism is that it prefers one scientific solution over another. We should remain neutral over the issue of whether the soul exists until such a time as science either confirms or falsifies it. The fact that we haven't found the mind/soul doesn't mean it doesn't exist... it clearly does. It just means that current materialist science is too limited to observe it... leading increasingly to the speculation of the existence of non-physical worlds, either that or the role of quantum physics... again another very fascinating new field quantum biology |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I said that was the simple problem... i.e. what evolutionary advantage is there in mixing up things which do exist into new combinations which don't exist? It appears to be a completely redundant and useless facility.. and yet pretty much all of human culture, and even science, has sprung from it. The non-answer to it is just to say either that's just the way it is... or we just lucked out. Not surprisingly this doesn't satisfy some scientists or philosophers at this moment.
The more complex problems come when you start talking about how come humans have been able to conjure up things that don't have any referent in nature.
Followed, of course, by the problem of how humans have been able to conjure up things which they believe exist but there is no proof they exist... until they later find they exist.
All in all there is absolutely no evolutinary advantage to our being able to comprehend the workings of the universe so either we're just homo sapiens who are mistaken in our belief that we know how the universe works... or we have access to some special kind of knowledge which has somehow come to us."
Interesting.
I think the biggest problem goes back to the OP, in that we don't know what we are. Then add on that we don't know our purpose for being (if we even need one) and why there is so much outside of us that exists and we don't know why that's there either.
All theories and ideas that are backed up by things that make sense are possible, there's loads of them out there though.
But we don't exactly 'imagine' things that don't exist and are later proved to be real, this stuff is based on things we do already know that bring up possibilities or likelihoods of these things existing based on what we know at the time. Scientifically observed things that we do understand can be used to predict other things too.
Also things like we're trying to make humans immortal, even though all humans die and everything dies (so it appears, at some point physically our bodies cease to work any more). Now although we know it's not possible right now to live forever, we also don't know what happens when we die and some people don't want to die, so fear of loss is what drives us to become immortal. Fear exists and is the force behind this 'imaginary' thing. Hope that makes sense? Probably doesn't, i kind of drifted off into all kinds of stuff now.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No worries To be honest this isn't something I've looked into that deeply but I've had one curious eye on it. An evolutionary biologist recently published a big old book called something like The Runes Of Evolution which explores some of these and other issues... but it's over 900 pages long and what I read of it is pretty dense... so that might have to wait. My current strength is in the philosophy of the mind as I'm currently reading "Mind & Cosmos" by atheist philosopher of the mind Thomas Nagel, who explores the short comings of the materialist view of the mind, and "Aping Mankind" by atheist neuroscientist Raymond Tallis, who refutes the idea that brain activity creates consciousness and argues for far greater problems in that field than materialist neuroscientists would wish their to be Both very interesting books "
I used to be well into this kind of stuff yeah, studied neurology and did start on molecular biology this year then stopped idk why i should have carried on really. I'm actually gonna go look up that Raymond Tallis argument right now, sounds really interesting. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The trouble with Atheism is that it prefers one scientific solution over another. We should remain neutral over the issue of whether the soul exists until such a time as science either confirms or falsifies it. The fact that we haven't found the mind/soul doesn't mean it doesn't exist... it clearly does. It just means that current materialist science is too limited to observe it... leading increasingly to the speculation of the existence of non-physical worlds, either that or the role of quantum physics... again another very fascinating new field quantum biology "
Using language for concepts or realities that language doesn't exist for or is inadequate makes this a tough thing to investigate. Mathematics covers a lot of ground but it might be tricky in this case.
Thanks for the book titles though! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"But we don't exactly 'imagine' things that don't exist and are later proved to be real, this stuff is based on things we do already know that bring up possibilities or likelihoods of these things existing based on what we know at the time. Scientifically observed things that we do understand can be used to predict other things too."
I think there's this guy who's just published a book called something like the science of Doctor Who which is about fantastical stuff they made up in the series which later turned out to either be true or actually exist.. one was ice volcanoes which scientists laughed at but only recently discovered on some moon somewhere TBH that's not what I really meant... but it seemed like an appropriate anecdote |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"But we don't exactly 'imagine' things that don't exist and are later proved to be real, this stuff is based on things we do already know that bring up possibilities or likelihoods of these things existing based on what we know at the time. Scientifically observed things that we do understand can be used to predict other things too.
I think there's this guy who's just published a book called something like the science of Doctor Who which is about fantastical stuff they made up in the series which later turned out to either be true or actually exist.. one was ice volcanoes which scientists laughed at but only recently discovered on some moon somewhere TBH that's not what I really meant... but it seemed like an appropriate anecdote "
Yeah i think compression of gases causes weird things on other planets.
You know a lot of interesting books btw. |
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