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Greece
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
Why?
Germany had half of their debt forgiven in 1953/4 so why not Greece?
Of course much of Africa might have something to say if debt is forgiven but for Greece they are where they are now and it's not pleasant.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They should feel privileged to even be in the eu as its muslim country. "
Er, Orthodox actually, but nevermind.
Hardly think religion has much to do with it.
Their big problem was their whole attitude to their economy. They didn't exactly have a string economy before they joined the EU and there were concerns even then. They were keen to join up as they thought that the rest of Europe would carry them.
This really was inevitable - right from the start.
The big question now is what happens next regarding their debt and what signals it might send to other member states that received bail outs - mind you most of those met the conditions of their bail outs.
Could this be the beginning of the end for the Euro. Will it still be around ten years frim now? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They should feel privileged to even be in the eu as its muslim country. "
..............I despair with the complete futility of the comment and its content quite shameful.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They should feel privileged to even be in the eu as its muslim country.
WTF ? 
Are you just throwing that statement in to troll ?  "
No I don't. I don't think it was there. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What's your thoughts on the Greek vote and their economy. I have limited sympathy for them"
I am sure the people of Greece will be devastated to know you feel that way |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Why?
Germany had half of their debt forgiven in 1953/4 so why not Greece?
Of course much of Africa might have something to say if debt is forgiven but for Greece they are where they are now and it's not pleasant.
"
1934 Germany defaulted on all its' debt and replaced the Reichsmark with a new Reichsmark.
Then under pressure from the USA France, Britain and many others had to write off all the debt outstanding vs. Germany (West part).
Hypo Vereins Bank Munich went under with Euro 112 billion in debt - The German government took over and did not pay any compensation to credit givers (US fonds and banks) in anyway.
The reason why the Greece debt is so high is that EZB did not write off 25-50% of their outstandings as private lenders were forced to but instead forced more loans on to Greece to cover interest payments and loan repayments to French and German banks.
So I feel nothing for Germany losing out on approx. Euro 97 billion plus interest -as Mrs Merkel and her idea of ruling (ex SED manner) does not fit in a so-called united Europe.
That with a relatives in Germany, Italy, France and Switzerland... Looking at Europe not with pink glasses but with hard facts - that every 7th family in Italy have no food or income ...
Hope Greece stick with it and they get help from elsewhere (China/Russia).. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Why?
Germany had half of their debt forgiven in 1953/4 so why not Greece?
Of course much of Africa might have something to say if debt is forgiven but for Greece they are where they are now and it's not pleasant.
1934 Germany defaulted on all its' debt and replaced the Reichsmark with a new Reichsmark.
Then under pressure from the USA France, Britain and many others had to write off all the debt outstanding vs. Germany (West part).
Hypo Vereins Bank Munich went under with Euro 112 billion in debt - The German government took over and did not pay any compensation to credit givers (US fonds and banks) in anyway.
The reason why the Greece debt is so high is that EZB did not write off 25-50% of their outstandings as private lenders were forced to but instead forced more loans on to Greece to cover interest payments and loan repayments to French and German banks.
So I feel nothing for Germany losing out on approx. Euro 97 billion plus interest -as Mrs Merkel and her idea of ruling (ex SED manner) does not fit in a so-called united Europe.
That with a relatives in Germany, Italy, France and Switzerland... Looking at Europe not with pink glasses but with hard facts - that every 7th family in Italy have no food or income ...
Hope Greece stick with it and they get help from elsewhere (China/Russia).."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's going to be a tough few years for them. Tourism is their biggest income source so I hope the Germans don't boycott the islands because of the vote. People taking Euro's when visiting has really helped the locals.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The problems are two-fold.
Greece has not, for decades, collected proper taxes with one and all, rich and poor, dodging taxes with impunity. On top of this a ridiculously low retirement age and a long-lived population.
.
Secondly when it came to joining the Euro they met absolutely NONE of the criteria. There membership of the Euro was forced through by Germany, France and the Brussels Eurocrats. These are the people who should pick up the tab for Greek debt..... German and French banks....it is your own countries fault so suck it up and maybe learn from your mistakes! (Fat chance of that) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's going to be a tough few years for them. Tourism is their biggest income source so I hope the Germans don't boycott the islands because of the vote. People taking Euro's when visiting has really helped the locals.
"
At least we can get a sunbed then!  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They should feel privileged to even be in the eu as its muslim country.
Oh dear shag you do come out with some proper crackers at times...  "
lol and yes I do that sometimes. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Why?
Germany had half of their debt forgiven in 1953/4 so why not Greece?
Of course much of Africa might have something to say if debt is forgiven but for Greece they are where they are now and it's not pleasant.
"
because Germany did what was needed to put it in a position to repay the remaining half.
Greece is refusing to so unless it's all written off its just gonna be exactly the same.
Might help if they looked into why something like 90% of their doctors are reporting their earning less than 12k euros a year on their tax returns. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Don't let the door hit them in the ass on the way out.
There are massive differences in the way debts are accumulated between countries. There are some countries like Ireland who didn't have governments that binge spend but suffered immensely due to the banking crash. But the Irish pulled their finger out and started fixing it.
Then there are others who want the easy way out... before anyone tells me how they work the longest hours in Europe - that's a statistical joke and you need to go there and see for yourselves when everything shuts at 3pm except restaurants and bars. That's after the 1-2 hour lunch they just had and heaven forbid they should open before 9am. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They should feel privileged to even be in the eu as its muslim country.
WTF ?
Are you just throwing that statement in to troll ? "
Ello everybody peeps  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's going to be a tough few years for them. Tourism is their biggest income source so I hope the Germans don't boycott the islands because of the vote. People taking Euro's when visiting has really helped the locals.
At least we can get a sunbed then! "
Ha I wondered how long it would take for THAT line to show up  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Ah poor old syspihus pushing that stone up that hill forever and a day.
Thank Christ 61% of Greeks saw to fuck that stone and hill off.
It seems that the argument is boiling down to whether it's fair that Greece repay or default?
The trouble with that argument is... The Greeks can't repay no matter how much they wish to/don't wish to.
They need to go bankrupt or be helped out by Germany by writing off a percentage of their debts, that's not the same as Germany just giving them more debt!
They can't pay the debt they had and they won't be able to pay the debt you give them, ffs Germans I always thought of you as being the sensible ones..... Your enemy is Deutsche bank and frauline Merkel
Not Greek people |
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Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?"
If you borrow money and can't pay it back the court sends the basis to take your stuff
Why shouldn't the banks be able to go round and repossess some Greek government property.
But it doesn't matter if everyone wrote off every single penny of Greek debt tomorrow plus gave them a free 50 billion. We'd be in the same position next year.
Until the Greeks decide that living in a tax optional state isn't going to be sustainable their government is always going to be broke. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?
If you borrow money and can't pay it back the court sends the basis to take your stuff
Why shouldn't the banks be able to go round and repossess some Greek government property.
But it doesn't matter if everyone wrote off every single penny of Greek debt tomorrow plus gave them a free 50 billion. We'd be in the same position next year.
Until the Greeks decide that living in a tax optional state isn't going to be sustainable their government is always going to be broke."
.
No they wouldn't because there'd never have been able to borrow that money without being in the euro with a German credit rating.
There'd be historically exactly what there'd always been!
A working but not very good infrastructure poor country with a decent current account thanks to a fairly accurate currency! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?"
Is there any evidence to suggest that these banks actually had the money to lend of were they lending computer generated credits ?
If banks are private business's operating for profit why does the tax payer bail them out when they fail ? |
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"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?
If you borrow money and can't pay it back the court sends the basis to take your stuff
Why shouldn't the banks be able to go round and repossess some Greek government property.
But it doesn't matter if everyone wrote off every single penny of Greek debt tomorrow plus gave them a free 50 billion. We'd be in the same position next year.
Until the Greeks decide that living in a tax optional state isn't going to be sustainable their government is always going to be broke."
I'm not sure that's an entirely fair reading of the situation...
If you've ever helped someone to go bankrupt (and I have), the courts don't take everything.
Instead a list of your assets and debts then draw up a table of priority. They don;t take what you don;t have.
I think the problems of the Greek economy have a little bit more to do with the death-spiral of austerity they've been locked in to for the last few years than dodgy tax receipts.
Bottom, this is people's lives - when old people go hungry, when children can't get medicine, when teachers aren't paid - this is more important than a 'hit' taken by some bank.
imo |
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"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?
Is there any evidence to suggest that these banks actually had the money to lend of were they lending computer generated credits ?
If banks are private business's operating for profit why does the tax payer bail them out when they fail ?"
Excellent question!
Every heard of 'too big to fail'? (like Royal Bank of Scotland)
If yr too big to fail, yr too big, imo |
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" its very much Greek Orthodox, as to life on corfu much the same,,,as to the vote..it's like asking kids do you want ice cream..lol..connie x"
Yeah, now step out of your idyll and go to the mainland |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Just a quick point on Greek bankruptcy.
The ecb currently hold Greek assets in return for the money they've lent them!.
In fact the assets are worth about 15% more than what they lent.
The trouble is that should the Greeks go bankrupt those assets will collapse in price under a drachma.
Also do you really think the Greek government will stand a hope in hell of getting their national gold back(roughly 4 billion) held by the ecb? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?
Is there any evidence to suggest that these banks actually had the money to lend of were they lending computer generated credits ?
If banks are private business's operating for profit why does the tax payer bail them out when they fail ?
Excellent question!
Every heard of 'too big to fail'? (like Royal Bank of Scotland)
If yr too big to fail, yr too big, imo"
well let the consumer beware. This to big to fail thing, its bull shit right ?
If you bank with a bank that fails its your look out as a consumer.
The tax payer bailed out RBS to the tune of £58 billion, buying shares at £5.70. George osbourne aka little damien is gonna sell the publicly owned shares at about £2.70 taking something like a £30 billion pound loss.
Isnt that criminal ?
I mean if it isn't then it should be. Thats just redistributing tax money from the public purse to big business that operates for profit. Of course it wouldnt be so bad if these banks actually paid a decent ammount of tax when they were making money, but thats avoided isnt it. some people do get their cake and eat it |
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"Just a quick point on Greek bankruptcy.
The ecb currently hold Greek assets in return for the money they've lent them!.
In fact the assets are worth about 15% more than what they lent.
The trouble is that should the Greeks go bankrupt those assets will collapse in price under a drachma.
Also do you really think the Greek government will stand a hope in hell of getting their national gold back(roughly 4 billion) held by the ecb?"
It's all a big shit sandwich.
But whatever the figures we can argue over, or the supposed moral rights and wrongs, it's people's lives |
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"
Greece has not, for decades, collected proper taxes with one and all, rich and poor, dodging taxes with impunity. On top of this a ridiculously low retirement age and a long-lived population.
.
Secondly when it came to joining the Euro they met absolutely NONE of the criteria. There membership of the Euro was forced through by Germany, France and the Brussels Eurocrats. These are the people who should pick up the tab for Greek debt..... German and French banks....it is your own countries fault so suck it up and maybe learn from your mistakes! (Fat chance of that)"
this to a large degree, they were not the only ones who were 'allowed in' to the club when the entry criteria was not achieved..
the figure of 3% springs to mind, think it was a red line to joining and referred to structural debt being less than 3% of GDP..?
also you only have to travel to Cyprus and see the concrete bars protruding from both private and commercial buildings which is a cop out to paying a completion tax..
the attitude and work ethic of some countries is different to others in Europe and until there is change in some of the more laissez faire ones then it will remain an issue.. |
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"
Greece has not, for decades, collected proper taxes with one and all, rich and poor, dodging taxes with impunity. On top of this a ridiculously low retirement age and a long-lived population.
.
Secondly when it came to joining the Euro they met absolutely NONE of the criteria. There membership of the Euro was forced through by Germany, France and the Brussels Eurocrats. These are the people who should pick up the tab for Greek debt..... German and French banks....it is your own countries fault so suck it up and maybe learn from your mistakes! (Fat chance of that)
this to a large degree, they were not the only ones who were 'allowed in' to the club when the entry criteria was not achieved..
the figure of 3% springs to mind, think it was a red line to joining and referred to structural debt being less than 3% of GDP..?
also you only have to travel to Cyprus and see the concrete bars protruding from both private and commercial buildings which is a cop out to paying a completion tax..
the attitude and work ethic of some countries is different to others in Europe and until there is change in some of the more laissez faire ones then it will remain an issue.."
What's yr point?
Greeks work, on average, some of the longest hours in Europe - it's just that they;r employed in less 'productive' jobs - ie agriculture, tourism, self-employment.
They're not *just being lazy*. |
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"
Greece has not, for decades, collected proper taxes with one and all, rich and poor, dodging taxes with impunity. On top of this a ridiculously low retirement age and a long-lived population.
.
Secondly when it came to joining the Euro they met absolutely NONE of the criteria. There membership of the Euro was forced through by Germany, France and the Brussels Eurocrats. These are the people who should pick up the tab for Greek debt..... German and French banks....it is your own countries fault so suck it up and maybe learn from your mistakes! (Fat chance of that)
this to a large degree, they were not the only ones who were 'allowed in' to the club when the entry criteria was not achieved..
the figure of 3% springs to mind, think it was a red line to joining and referred to structural debt being less than 3% of GDP..?
also you only have to travel to Cyprus and see the concrete bars protruding from both private and commercial buildings which is a cop out to paying a completion tax..
the attitude and work ethic of some countries is different to others in Europe and until there is change in some of the more laissez faire ones then it will remain an issue..
What's yr point?
Greeks work, on average, some of the longest hours in Europe - it's just that they;r employed in less 'productive' jobs - ie agriculture, tourism, self-employment.
They're not *just being lazy*."
which point dont you understand?
did not say lazy, though some as we and other countries within the EU also have will be..
that the entry criteria was fudged is a matter of record and whilst all was well with global finances etc that papered over the cracks.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Your all missing the point entirely..... Greece is in no worse a position than nearly every country in the world has been in at one time or another!
Yes politics is usually to blame and disinterested easily bribed electorate also! But
The difference being Greece do not hold there own monetary policy, only fiscal and you CANNOT escape this problem with fiscal policy, you can only escape it through the exact same method that the UK did in the 70s through monetary policy and fiscal policy combined..... And that is why the eu and euro will never work unless you want to make one country? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The potential cost of Greece leaving the Euro is possibly worse for the EU than it is for Greece. For a start... what if Greece leaves the Euro, goes back to the drachma, and nothing really bad happens? Indeed, what if it kinda works out well for them? Italy and Spain, and probably a fair few others would be tempted to do it too... and there goes the whole Euro. So that, for the EU, is definitely the worse case scenario.
Secondly, what if Greece leaves the Euro and falls off the edge of the world into poverty and increasing radicalism? Next thing we know its gonna be in all of the EU's national interests to try and bail Greece out of her problems... which is what we have the chance to do right now anyway.
I say cancel the debt. It's only half of what we printed to save the banks so the system can afford it... plus it never really existed anyway.
Also the addition of interest to national debts is a criminal act imo and should be immediately outlawed on an international level, perhaps by a UN ruling. |
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"The potential cost of Greece leaving the Euro is possibly worse for the EU than it is for Greece. For a start... what if Greece leaves the Euro, goes back to the drachma, and nothing really bad happens? Indeed, what if it kinda works out well for them? Italy and Spain, and probably a fair few others would be tempted to do it too... and there goes the whole Euro. So that, for the EU, is definitely the worse case scenario.
Secondly, what if Greece leaves the Euro and falls off the edge of the world into poverty and increasing radicalism? Next thing we know its gonna be in all of the EU's national interests to try and bail Greece out of her problems... which is what we have the chance to do right now anyway.
I say cancel the debt. It's only half of what we printed to save the banks so the system can afford it... plus it never really existed anyway.
Also the addition of interest to national debts is a criminal act imo and should be immediately outlawed on an international level, perhaps by a UN ruling."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The potential cost of Greece leaving the Euro is possibly worse for the EU than it is for Greece. For a start... what if Greece leaves the Euro, goes back to the drachma, and nothing really bad happens? Indeed, what if it kinda works out well for them? Italy and Spain, and probably a fair few others would be tempted to do it too... and there goes the whole Euro. So that, for the EU, is definitely the worse case scenario.
Secondly, what if Greece leaves the Euro and falls off the edge of the world into poverty and increasing radicalism? Next thing we know its gonna be in all of the EU's national interests to try and bail Greece out of her problems... which is what we have the chance to do right now anyway.
I say cancel the debt. It's only half of what we printed to save the banks so the system can afford it... plus it never really existed anyway.
Also the addition of interest to national debts is a criminal act imo and should be immediately outlawed on an international level, perhaps by a UN ruling."
.
Right wing radicalism is on the march all over Europe!
It feeds on bad times like a vampire.
I'm afraid there's a shit storm of financial bad times ahead for us all, and theres nothing nobody can do about it?
All the wealthy elites know it, just look around there ditching cash and buying assets and building massive fucking houses in the middle of south America and new Zealand  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?
If you borrow money and can't pay it back the court sends the basis to take your stuff
Why shouldn't the banks be able to go round and repossess some Greek government property.
But it doesn't matter if everyone wrote off every single penny of Greek debt tomorrow plus gave them a free 50 billion. We'd be in the same position next year.
Until the Greeks decide that living in a tax optional state isn't going to be sustainable their government is always going to be broke.
I'm not sure that's an entirely fair reading of the situation...
If you've ever helped someone to go bankrupt (and I have), the courts don't take everything.
Instead a list of your assets and debts then draw up a table of priority. They don;t take what you don;t have.
I think the problems of the Greek economy have a little bit more to do with the death-spiral of austerity they've been locked in to for the last few years than dodgy tax receipts.
Bottom, this is people's lives - when old people go hungry, when children can't get medicine, when teachers aren't paid - this is more important than a 'hit' taken by some bank.
imo"
I didn't day take everything.
But say does Greece need an expensive military airforce now?
Or could that outgoing be removed the equipment sold and the airspace protected by say Germany?
A large chunk of debt gone, a huge outgoing gone, no practical change in day to day existence. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's going to be a tough few years for them. Tourism is their biggest income source so I hope the Germans don't boycott the islands because of the vote. People taking Euro's when visiting has really helped the locals.
At least we can get a sunbed then! "
HA ha hope you got your towel and lotion ready! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The sooner the creditors realise that Greece is not going to repay their debt, and the sooner Greece realises that this means they have to leave the Euro, the sooner the country and its people can start to rebuild. The big issue is that without the support of the ECB, Greek banks are bust, and therefore Greek savers are in serious danger of losing their deposits, which is why I expect a fudge deal of some sort and the Greek crisi will roll on for many more years. |
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"
I think the problems of the Greek economy have a little bit more to do with the death-spiral of austerity they've been locked in to for the last few years than dodgy tax receipts.
Bottom, this is people's lives - when old people go hungry, when children can't get medicine, when teachers aren't paid - this is more important than a 'hit' taken by some bank.
imo"
I hope you're just as enthusiastic about the african countries too.
.
Manipulating debts/accounts, avoiding taxes, not paying back your debts...sounds like thieves to me.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The sooner the creditors realise that Greece is not going to repay their debt, and the sooner Greece realises that this means they have to leave the Euro, the sooner the country and its people can start to rebuild. The big issue is that without the support of the ECB, Greek banks are bust, and therefore Greek savers are in serious danger of losing their deposits, which is why I expect a fudge deal of some sort and the Greek crisi will roll on for many more years."
.
We both know that in the end Germany will cut the Greeks debt and roll the bandwagon on for a few more years!.
It will be very hard for the Greeks to default and go back to the drachma but it's utterly unthinkable to the Germans.
For a start it end this notion that the euro is forever and gives it temporary status |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The sooner the creditors realise that Greece is not going to repay their debt, and the sooner Greece realises that this means they have to leave the Euro, the sooner the country and its people can start to rebuild. The big issue is that without the support of the ECB, Greek banks are bust, and therefore Greek savers are in serious danger of losing their deposits, which is why I expect a fudge deal of some sort and the Greek crisi will roll on for many more years..
We both know that in the end Germany will cut the Greeks debt and roll the bandwagon on for a few more years!.
It will be very hard for the Greeks to default and go back to the drachma but it's utterly unthinkable to the Germans.
For a start it end this notion that the euro is forever and gives it temporary status "
I think the concern for the EU leaders is that if they cut Greece the slack it needs, it sets a precedent for anyone else with debt issues, and that is probably everyone inside the Eurozone other than Germany! So while in isolation Greece is actually not that big an issue, the potential for bigger economies with even bigger debts to seek similar outcomes will be the main concern. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The sooner the creditors realise that Greece is not going to repay their debt, and the sooner Greece realises that this means they have to leave the Euro, the sooner the country and its people can start to rebuild. The big issue is that without the support of the ECB, Greek banks are bust, and therefore Greek savers are in serious danger of losing their deposits, which is why I expect a fudge deal of some sort and the Greek crisi will roll on for many more years..
We both know that in the end Germany will cut the Greeks debt and roll the bandwagon on for a few more years!.
It will be very hard for the Greeks to default and go back to the drachma but it's utterly unthinkable to the Germans.
For a start it end this notion that the euro is forever and gives it temporary status
I think the concern for the EU leaders is that if they cut Greece the slack it needs, it sets a precedent for anyone else with debt issues, and that is probably everyone inside the Eurozone other than Germany! So while in isolation Greece is actually not that big an issue, the potential for bigger economies with even bigger debts to seek similar outcomes will be the main concern."
.
Exactly, in reality what there doing is making it so bad in Greece that no other country will possibly contemplate doing the same.... And then they will cut there debt and a deal done!.
It doesn't cure the debt problem it papers over it until the next crises and the next ones are bigger like Italy and Spain! |
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"I didn't day take everything.
But say does Greece need an expensive military airforce now?
Or could that outgoing be removed the equipment sold and the airspace protected by say Germany?
A large chunk of debt gone, a huge outgoing gone, no practical change in day to day existence. "
...'k
The Greeks have historical reasons for maintaining a large air force (Turkey)... don;t quite follow what that has to do with selling their airspace to Germany? Or am I misunderstanding you...?
And how much do you think that would raise (total we're trying to reach here is £174bn total Greek debt)?
It's really simple:
Even if they increase revenues and cut costs, the magnitude of the problem is such that the Greeks would not resolve anything given the weight of the debt they're dragging.
The only way to get out of this hole is for all sides to join forces and agree, including bondholders, to assume some of the sacrifices.
Not just keep screwing down the peasants. |
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By *icky999Man
over a year ago
warrington |
"your country is at risk if you dont keep up repayments on a lone secured against it"
we're going to have a referendum on weather we pay you your money back or not
we're going to have a referendum on weather we knee cap you or not 
cheeky bastards! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?
If you borrow money and can't pay it back the court sends the basis to take your stuff
Why shouldn't the banks be able to go round and repossess some Greek government property.
But it doesn't matter if everyone wrote off every single penny of Greek debt tomorrow plus gave them a free 50 billion. We'd be in the same position next year.
Until the Greeks decide that living in a tax optional state isn't going to be sustainable their government is always going to be broke.
I'm not sure that's an entirely fair reading of the situation...
If you've ever helped someone to go bankrupt (and I have), the courts don't take everything.
Instead a list of your assets and debts then draw up a table of priority. They don;t take what you don;t have.
I think the problems of the Greek economy have a little bit more to do with the death-spiral of austerity they've been locked in to for the last few years than dodgy tax receipts.
Bottom, this is people's lives - when old people go hungry, when children can't get medicine, when teachers aren't paid - this is more important than a 'hit' taken by some bank.
imo
I didn't day take everything.
But say does Greece need an expensive military airforce now?
Or could that outgoing be removed the equipment sold and the airspace protected by say Germany?
A large chunk of debt gone, a huge outgoing gone, no practical change in day to day existence. "
.
Have you ever tried debt collection?
My uncle does it for a living!
Exactly what do you do when the Greek authority's say oh you've come for our air force....err fuck off before we shoot you!
There is no contract on sovereign debt for a reason!... What they normally do in other parts of the world (third world) is quietly install their own leaders who allow foreign companies in to strip assets, it's easier in the third world because there well.. Third world.
I think it might be slightly harder in Greece |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I didn't day take everything.
But say does Greece need an expensive military airforce now?
Or could that outgoing be removed the equipment sold and the airspace protected by say Germany?
A large chunk of debt gone, a huge outgoing gone, no practical change in day to day existence.
...'k
The Greeks have historical reasons for maintaining a large air force (Turkey)... don;t quite follow what that has to do with selling their airspace to Germany? Or am I misunderstanding you...?
And how much do you think that would raise (total we're trying to reach here is £174bn total Greek debt)?
It's really simple:
Even if they increase revenues and cut costs, the magnitude of the problem is such that the Greeks would not resolve anything given the weight of the debt they're dragging.
The only way to get out of this hole is for all sides to join forces and agree, including bondholders, to assume some of the sacrifices.
Not just keep screwing down the peasants. "
I'm not saying sell their air space.
I'm saying they can flogging of their military airforce jets and the other reunion countries can cover them in the rare chance someone decides to start a bombing campaign against them.
I don't think turkey is particularly likely to choose to invade Greece is it.
Would be a bit of capital and then it would be a reduction in government spending of billions a year.
But the issue is plain and simple tax
The middle class and above of Greece are all claiming to be on what's less than minimum wage here as far as their tax is concerned. |
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the greeks have played a blinder....borrow borrow and not pay back then the eu lend them more no repayments and we lend them more....top job....wait for port,italy spain etc to follow suit....the euro will fall apart in 2 yrs ....even the german people don't want it but mrs turtle as I like to call her, wants and does rule europe |
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"I'm not saying sell their air space.
I'm saying they can flogging of their military airforce jets and the other reunion countries can cover them in the rare chance someone decides to start a bombing campaign against them.
I don't think turkey is particularly likely to choose to invade Greece is it.
Would be a bit of capital and then it would be a reduction in government spending of billions a year.
But the issue is plain and simple tax
The middle class and above of Greece are all claiming to be on what's less than minimum wage here as far as their tax is concerned. "
You seem to imply that there's loads of cash sloshing about, and people in Greece simply not paying their dues...
Have you been to Greece recently?
Do you know any Greeks?
It's like the Great Depression over there - you're lucky the Leftists got voted in, otherwise it would have been the far right with Golden Dawn.
This is a very precarious situation for the country atm.
And underneath it all - all the numbers and who was right and wrong - people are suffering |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I've got a good solution...
1) Put the Elgin Marbles up for sale
2) Watch as a bunch of Greek billionaires come out of the woodwork to bid for them
3) Appropriate their billions and give it back to Greece
4) Keep the Marbles just in case it needs to be done again at some future date  |
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By *icky999Man
over a year ago
warrington |
"I've got a good solution...
1) Put the Elgin Marbles up for sale
2) Watch as a bunch of Greek billionaires come out of the woodwork to bid for them
3) Appropriate their billions and give it back to Greece
4) Keep the Marbles just in case it needs to be done again at some future date "
there shit! you'll never play ollies with them |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I'm not saying sell their air space.
I'm saying they can flogging of their military airforce jets and the other reunion countries can cover them in the rare chance someone decides to start a bombing campaign against them.
I don't think turkey is particularly likely to choose to invade Greece is it.
Would be a bit of capital and then it would be a reduction in government spending of billions a year.
But the issue is plain and simple tax
The middle class and above of Greece are all claiming to be on what's less than minimum wage here as far as their tax is concerned.
You seem to imply that there's loads of cash sloshing about, and people in Greece simply not paying their dues...
Have you been to Greece recently?
Do you know any Greeks?
It's like the Great Depression over there - you're lucky the Leftists got voted in, otherwise it would have been the far right with Golden Dawn.
This is a very precarious situation for the country atm.
And underneath it all - all the numbers and who was right and wrong - people are suffering"
I do know a few Greeks yes.
Including an engineer who for about the last 15 years has been earning about 50k more than he's been saying he has and is now ducked off that he might not be able to retire soon.
But remember this isn't about stopping all the money to the Greeks this is about the lender a saying "we are willing to lend you more money but you've got to start doing things to make sure you can pay it back" |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Stop pandering to the banks.....
Look the smartest guys in banking decided that Greece should pay 5% on ten year year bonds in the euro years, even though before that they were charging them 23%??
Deutsche bank decided to lend Greece billions at 5 fucking %
Even though there's absolutely no guarantees you'll ever get your money back, let alone your 5%.
Wtf... And people are actually concerned about Greece not repaying!
Not one person on this thread has even shown the slightest concern that the bank they give their money to, is giving money to idiots for fuck all.
The world's gone fucking mad
Were bailing out people who made utterly shite business decisions, were bailing out failed companies left right and centre while you lot sit and moan about socialist governments giving people benefits... Benefits that we pretty much recoup in months through tax... Which poor people nearly always pay... Because their fucking poor... You moan like fuck about Gordon brown rapping your pensions while zero % interest rates really do rape your pension pot and then you think there doing you a fucking favour by giving you the pot.... And the same lot that moan about paying tax and say we should pay less tax in the UK... They then deride the Greeks for not paying tax in Greece
Deutsche bank and societe general had the problem..... Rbs and Halifax had the problem
Fanny and Freddie
Goldman Sachs, Barclays, hsbc
These fuckers are the ones that need structural reform not fecking Greek pensioners. If I was a German id be pretty pissed at
Merkel and right now I'd be thinking of putting my money somewhere safe because Deutsche bank have proven there either incompetent idiots or out and out fraudsters |
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"Ah poor old syspihus pushing that stone up that hill forever and a day.
Thank Christ 61% of Greeks saw to fuck that stone and hill off.
It seems that the argument is boiling down to whether it's fair that Greece repay or default?
The trouble with that argument is... The Greeks can't repay no matter how much they wish to/don't wish to.
They need to go bankrupt or be helped out by Germany by writing off a percentage of their debts, that's not the same as Germany just giving them more debt!
They can't pay the debt they had and they won't be able to pay the debt you give them, ffs Germans I always thought of you as being the sensible ones..... Your enemy is Deutsche bank and frauline Merkel
Not Greek people"
Plus Goldman Sachs for fudging all the entry criteria reports for the EU.
Anyone with any knowledge of the Greek people would have backed an Oxi result. It's almost a national saying. Refer to 25 October if in doubt. Under pressure they always say Oxi.
I'd buy somewhere in the Islands in 18 months time when all hope is lost.
|
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"Stop pandering to the banks.....
Look the smartest guys in banking decided that Greece should pay 5% on ten year year bonds in the euro years, even though before that they were charging them 23%??
Deutsche bank decided to lend Greece billions at 5 fucking %
Even though there's absolutely no guarantees you'll ever get your money back, let alone your 5%.
Wtf... And people are actually concerned about Greece not repaying!
Not one person on this thread has even shown the slightest concern that the bank they give their money to, is giving money to idiots for fuck all.
The world's gone fucking mad
Were bailing out people who made utterly shite business decisions, were bailing out failed companies left right and centre while you lot sit and moan about socialist governments giving people benefits... Benefits that we pretty much recoup in months through tax... Which poor people nearly always pay... Because their fucking poor... You moan like fuck about Gordon brown rapping your pensions while zero % interest rates really do rape your pension pot and then you think there doing you a fucking favour by giving you the pot.... And the same lot that moan about paying tax and say we should pay less tax in the UK... They then deride the Greeks for not paying tax in Greece
Deutsche bank and societe general had the problem..... Rbs and Halifax had the problem
Fanny and Freddie
Goldman Sachs, Barclays, hsbc
These fuckers are the ones that need structural reform not fecking Greek pensioners. If I was a German id be pretty pissed at
Merkel and right now I'd be thinking of putting my money somewhere safe because Deutsche bank have proven there either incompetent idiots or out and out fraudsters"
Pension pots in your own hands.
#ThatsTheNextScandalWaitingToHappenAsPensionersWillFuckItUpAndWantBailingOutWhenThey'veNoMoneyLeftButHaveNiceSolarPanelsAndATanFromTheirCruise |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Its a program about Greece on panorama bbc1 8.30pm, interesting."
Must be about the entire population changing religion from Muslim to Greek Orthodox to try and get money out of the Germans!
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?
If you borrow money and can't pay it back the court sends the basis to take your stuff
Why shouldn't the banks be able to go round and repossess some Greek government property.
But it doesn't matter if everyone wrote off every single penny of Greek debt tomorrow plus gave them a free 50 billion. We'd be in the same position next year.
Until the Greeks decide that living in a tax optional state isn't going to be sustainable their government is always going to be broke."
funny enough Argentina had exactly the same attitude as Greece did..... right up until the point where a creditor famously repo'd an argentinian warship whilst it was in a west african port..... now that got their attention!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its a program about Greece on panorama bbc1 8.30pm, interesting.Must be about the entire population changing religion from Muslim to Greek Orthodox to try and get money out of the Germans!"
Yes it could be about as well, or that they didn't wanna pay their debt.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They should feel privileged to even be in the eu as its muslim country. ffs greece isnt a muslim country....its greek orthodox....christains"
I know, abit confusing
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?
If you borrow money and can't pay it back the court sends the basis to take your stuff
Why shouldn't the banks be able to go round and repossess some Greek government property.
But it doesn't matter if everyone wrote off every single penny of Greek debt tomorrow plus gave them a free 50 billion. We'd be in the same position next year.
Until the Greeks decide that living in a tax optional state isn't going to be sustainable their government is always going to be broke.
funny enough Argentina had exactly the same attitude as Greece did..... right up until the point where a creditor famously repo'd an argentinian warship whilst it was in a west african port..... now that got their attention!! "
lol USA's democracy in (unilateral) action.
Beware of US Vulture funds. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They should feel privileged to even be in the eu as its muslim country. ffs greece isnt a muslim country....its greek orthodox....christainsI know, abit confusing"
you are confusing the debate
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?
If you borrow money and can't pay it back the court sends the basis to take your stuff
Why shouldn't the banks be able to go round and repossess some Greek government property.
But it doesn't matter if everyone wrote off every single penny of Greek debt tomorrow plus gave them a free 50 billion. We'd be in the same position next year.
Until the Greeks decide that living in a tax optional state isn't going to be sustainable their government is always going to be broke.
funny enough Argentina had exactly the same attitude as Greece did..... right up until the point where a creditor famously repo'd an argentinian warship whilst it was in a west african port..... now that got their attention!! "
Still it worked out well for Argentina didn't it? ... what do you mean they are still broke and have hyperinflation... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here's a really simple point. If you have disposable income enough to invest, say in a stock market you will always find a little rider:
"The value of your investments may go down as well as up".
Considering that the bulk of Greek debt is owed to German and French private banks... Why can't *they* also take a hit?
What gives them the right to lend irresponsibly and then demand it all back?
If you borrow money and can't pay it back the court sends the basis to take your stuff
Why shouldn't the banks be able to go round and repossess some Greek government property.
But it doesn't matter if everyone wrote off every single penny of Greek debt tomorrow plus gave them a free 50 billion. We'd be in the same position next year.
Until the Greeks decide that living in a tax optional state isn't going to be sustainable their government is always going to be broke.
funny enough Argentina had exactly the same attitude as Greece did..... right up until the point where a creditor famously repo'd an argentinian warship whilst it was in a west african port..... now that got their attention!!
Still it worked out well for Argentina didn't it? ... what do you mean they are still broke and have hyperinflation..."
A very nice widowed lady from Accra has just emailed me offering me $20000000 if I help her to repatriate the money the bank of Nigeria is due from a lucky windfall after selling that warship to the Greek navy. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If you want a holiday in Greece next year don't book it now, cos they might not be in the eu next year.
To late!!! We booked last month for next July "
Ah yes, its on the one show now about it. |
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"I've got a good solution...
1) Put the Elgin Marbles up for sale
2) Watch as a bunch of Greek billionaires come out of the woodwork to bid for them
3) Appropriate their billions and give it back to Greece
4) Keep the Marbles just in case it needs to be done again at some future date "
Lol that's quantitative easing for you |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"They should feel privileged to even be in the eu as its muslim country. "
Greek Orthodox actually... nothing like Muslim. I'd suggest some research before posting. That aside, what has the country's religion got to do with it? |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Due to fly out in three weeks .. Dont i feel silly "
go and enjoy.... it just means you may have to take a lot of cash/travellers cheques with you....
just keep an eye for FCO advice on their website |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"What's your thoughts on the Greek vote and their economy. I have limited sympathy for them"
Why no sympathy? is that because you just hear things on the news or have actually spoken to Greeks and know what they are going through? What the average Greeks are going through is terrible and if you knew some of the facts then maybe you would at least show abit of sympathy for other human beings suffering. Ok off my soap box now and I really did hold back!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They should feel privileged to even be in the eu as its muslim country.
Greek Orthodox actually... nothing like Muslim. I'd suggest some research before posting. That aside, what has the country's religion got to do with it?"
No its got nothing to do with it, as I said previously I was abit confused with it. |
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