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Grexit 2
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Looks like the Greeks have voted overwhelmingly to stick 2 fingers up to the EU. Interesting times ahead. I do wonder what the consequences will be when the banks ran out of money this week."
If I was Merkel I would say... "well if the Greeks can have a referendum to their people on whether to accept the deal, I would give the German population a referendum on whether we should lend the greeks any more money!".
Thanks Fabio but here's the kicker as you'd say ....
30 billion of the Greek debt was actually owned by two banks... One German one French!, some more was owned by hedge funds.... Private companies with billionaire investors!
And now who owns the debt... Oh yeah the German and French taxpayer!... Those Germans should be questioning why the fuck they own a pile of shit that used to be owned by private investors |
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""Looks like the Greeks have voted overwhelmingly to stick 2 fingers up to the EU. Interesting times ahead. I do wonder what the consequences will be when the banks ran out of money this week."
If I was Merkel I would say... "well if the Greeks can have a referendum to their people on whether to accept the deal, I would give the German population a referendum on whether we should lend the greeks any more money!".
Thanks Fabio but here's the kicker as you'd say....
30 billion of the Greek debt was actually owned by two banks... One German one French!, some more was owned by hedge funds.... Private companies with billionaire investors!
And now who owns the debt... Oh yeah the German and French taxpayer!... Those Germans should be questioning why the fuck they own a pile of shit that used to be owned by private investors"
Huzzah! |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
I dont think it really matters how Greece have voted. They have voted a party in that they see as running their economy with their best intentions. What they fail to see is the amount of lending they have had. They have had several bail outs and two recessions all with helping hands from Europe. They got into Europe through lying about the state of their economy and now expect everybody else to stump up the cash and have them pay it back as they like it.
They need to get their house in order. They now have creditors that they have to repay. It doesn't matter how the people have voted. If Syriza are good at running an economy they need to now start proving it in repaying their debts and building infra structure. Seen as they only put a withdrawal limit on the banks a week ago, and everybody were freely buying expensive cars to hedge against collapse prior to that (taking money out of banks and the economy), I doubt they can. |
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this vote was irrelevant just a big card in Greece politicians hands. I really can't belive there is a goverment in the devoleped world what would play poker with a country being on the line like this. This month we gone see if imf and ecb call there bluff or not for people of Greece sake I hope they don't and sadly the pm and finance Minster will come out heros. But a lil in side of me wants it to go pair shape tho so these twats aren't remeber as heros but bunch idiot gamblers who in my eyes are 1000x worst then heads of the Lehman brothers |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I dont think it really matters how Greece have voted. They have voted a party in that they see as running their economy with their best intentions. What they fail to see is the amount of lending they have had. They have had several bail outs and two recessions all with helping hands from Europe. They got into Europe through lying about the state of their economy and now expect everybody else to stump up the cash and have them pay it back as they like it.
They need to get their house in order. They now have creditors that they have to repay. It doesn't matter how the people have voted. If Syriza are good at running an economy they need to now start proving it in repaying their debts and building infra structure. Seen as they only put a withdrawal limit on the banks a week ago, and everybody were freely buying expensive cars to hedge against collapse prior to that (taking money out of banks and the economy), I doubt they can. "
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Firstly it was Goldman Sachs who created the fraud that got Greece into the euro! Secondly Goldman Sachs was asked to by the higher authority in the EU(Germans) the Germans wanted countries like Greece, Ireland and Portugal in the euro because it cheepend the euro and that works out great for errrm Germany!
There is no social contract between Greek people and their debt! Never has been and that's why Greece used to pay 15 and 18 % interest on their bonds pre euro, it's also why the drachma was... Err worthless, what they got with monetary union was a German credit rating along with Portugal, Ireland and Italy and Spain... All of which were long term basket cases with worthless currencies.
What these countries should have had and needed more than anything else was..
FISCAL UNION
But who the fuck would want Germany running there country!
Not me, not that I don't like Germans it's just that well... There Germans!
The eu won't work without fiscal union which means in reality you need a united states of Europe
Let's look through history to see if there's another instance of 13 countries uniting under a federal state giving monetary, fiscal and law powers away that went well
Oh yeah it went really well for the US.... Let's just copy them  |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
Historically, Germany has been described as the biggest “debt transgressor” of the 20th Century, with restructurings in 1924, 1929, 1932 and 1953. So who are Germany to lecture Greece on paying back debt? Total debt forgiveness for Germany between 1947 and 1953 amounted to somewhere in the region of 280% of GDP, according to economic historian Albrecht Ritschl of the London School of Economics. Today, Greece has an external debt-to-GDP ratio of roughly 175%.
In 1953 Germany had half it's debt written off in order to allow it to rebuild. Of the other half, the agreement was that they would only pay a maximum of 3% of the value of its exports, and only when they were running a budget surplus. In other words ' pay it back when you can afford to'. This encouraged those countries it owed money to, to buy from Germany, and meant Germany became the economic powerhouse of Europe that it is today.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I was highly amused at Merkel's displeasure at being reminded that, in 1953, Greece wrote off Germany's post war debt.
As for the IMF - I say fuck 'em!"
I did wonder how Lagarde got the job. |
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"I was highly amused at Merkel's displeasure at being reminded that, in 1953, Greece wrote off Germany's post war debt.
As for the IMF - I say fuck 'em!"
So that's 8 Billion of our money you're willing to see go down the drain then? |
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"Historically, Germany has been described as the biggest “debt transgressor” of the 20th Century, with restructurings in 1924, 1929, 1932 and 1953. So who are Germany to lecture Greece on paying back debt? Total debt forgiveness for Germany between 1947 and 1953 amounted to somewhere in the region of 280% of GDP, according to economic historian Albrecht Ritschl of the London School of Economics. Today, Greece has an external debt-to-GDP ratio of roughly 175%.
In 1953 Germany had half it's debt written off in order to allow it to rebuild. Of the other half, the agreement was that they would only pay a maximum of 3% of the value of its exports, and only when they were running a budget surplus. In other words ' pay it back when you can afford to'. This encouraged those countries it owed money to, to buy from Germany, and meant Germany became the economic powerhouse of Europe that it is today.
"
The real problem is not the amount of debt Greece has. Every one already knows, and has done since the crisis began, that Greece is never going to pay that debt back. The real problem is that Greece is still spending more than it earns or brings in and has not done enough yet to change that. SO if we forgive Greece all its debt it wouldn't solve the problem because it's still running its budget in deficit and has not made the changes necessary to change that.
Greece has to come up with a plan that will either increase its income or decrease its expenditure before any serious talk on debt forgiveness can even be considered otherwise we'll all be back here again in another 5 to 10 years. |
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"Historically, Germany has been described as the biggest “debt transgressor” of the 20th Century, with restructurings in 1924, 1929, 1932 and 1953. So who are Germany to lecture Greece on paying back debt? Total debt forgiveness for Germany between 1947 and 1953 amounted to somewhere in the region of 280% of GDP, according to economic historian Albrecht Ritschl of the London School of Economics. Today, Greece has an external debt-to-GDP ratio of roughly 175%.
In 1953 Germany had half it's debt written off in order to allow it to rebuild. Of the other half, the agreement was that they would only pay a maximum of 3% of the value of its exports, and only when they were running a budget surplus. In other words ' pay it back when you can afford to'. This encouraged those countries it owed money to, to buy from Germany, and meant Germany became the economic powerhouse of Europe that it is today.
"
Sadly for the Greeks as a nation for security and importance at the time Germany split or unified mattered much like Korea in Asia. Now in economic terms Greece doesn't matter much so let's see how fast France and Germany throw them under the bus. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Historically, Germany has been described as the biggest “debt transgressor” of the 20th Century, with restructurings in 1924, 1929, 1932 and 1953. So who are Germany to lecture Greece on paying back debt? Total debt forgiveness for Germany between 1947 and 1953 amounted to somewhere in the region of 280% of GDP, according to economic historian Albrecht Ritschl of the London School of Economics. Today, Greece has an external debt-to-GDP ratio of roughly 175%.
In 1953 Germany had half it's debt written off in order to allow it to rebuild. Of the other half, the agreement was that they would only pay a maximum of 3% of the value of its exports, and only when they were running a budget surplus. In other words ' pay it back when you can afford to'. This encouraged those countries it owed money to, to buy from Germany, and meant Germany became the economic powerhouse of Europe that it is today.
"
.......& they're pretty good at organizing things like transport & stuff, & they're good engineers & stuff................. but apart from that, what have the Germans ever done for us, eh? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
This really is a somewhat ridiculous situation and debt forgiveness, or not is completely irrelevant without fundamental change within Greece.
For those who say that the problem is not with Greece but with those who gave the money in the first place... Why would they now give more? Is that not throwing good money after bad? If they were wrong to lend in the first place why would they now be right to lend even more?
Forgiving 10 billion, 50 billion or 100 billion is pointless unless there is going to be fundamental change in Greek infrastructure and as far as I know this is being resisted by the Greeks. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"Historically, Germany has been described as the biggest “debt transgressor” of the 20th Century, with restructurings in 1924, 1929, 1932 and 1953. So who are Germany to lecture Greece on paying back debt? Total debt forgiveness for Germany between 1947 and 1953 amounted to somewhere in the region of 280% of GDP, according to economic historian Albrecht Ritschl of the London School of Economics. Today, Greece has an external debt-to-GDP ratio of roughly 175%.
In 1953 Germany had half it's debt written off in order to allow it to rebuild. Of the other half, the agreement was that they would only pay a maximum of 3% of the value of its exports, and only when they were running a budget surplus. In other words ' pay it back when you can afford to'. This encouraged those countries it owed money to, to buy from Germany, and meant Germany became the economic powerhouse of Europe that it is today.
.......& they're pretty good at organizing things like transport & stuff, & they're good engineers & stuff................. but apart from that, what have the Germans ever done for us, eh? "
Yeah, Auschwitz, Belsen, etc. 6 Million Jews, 20 Million Russians, 2 World Wars,....
However, my point was that the writing off of debt in 1953 allowed them to do this. Without this, if the rest of the world had just said, 'tough, you've gotta pay', Germany would not have been able to get back in its feet.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Historically, Germany has been described as the biggest “debt transgressor” of the 20th Century, with restructurings in 1924, 1929, 1932 and 1953. So who are Germany to lecture Greece on paying back debt? Total debt forgiveness for Germany between 1947 and 1953 amounted to somewhere in the region of 280% of GDP, according to economic historian Albrecht Ritschl of the London School of Economics. Today, Greece has an external debt-to-GDP ratio of roughly 175%.
In 1953 Germany had half it's debt written off in order to allow it to rebuild. Of the other half, the agreement was that they would only pay a maximum of 3% of the value of its exports, and only when they were running a budget surplus. In other words ' pay it back when you can afford to'. This encouraged those countries it owed money to, to buy from Germany, and meant Germany became the economic powerhouse of Europe that it is today.
.......& they're pretty good at organizing things like transport & stuff, & they're good engineers & stuff................. but apart from that, what have the Germans ever done for us, eh?
Yeah, Auschwitz, Belsen, etc. 6 Million Jews, 20 Million Russians, 2 World Wars,....
However, my point was that the writing off of debt in 1953 allowed them to do this. Without this, if the rest of the world had just said, 'tough, you've gotta pay', Germany would not have been able to get back in its feet.
"
Does your history books only go back 100 years?  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"This really is a somewhat ridiculous situation and debt forgiveness, or not is completely irrelevant without fundamental change within Greece.
For those who say that the problem is not with Greece but with those who gave the money in the first place... Why would they now give more? Is that not throwing good money after bad? If they were wrong to lend in the first place why would they now be right to lend even more?
Forgiving 10 billion, 50 billion or 100 billion is pointless unless there is going to be fundamental change in Greek infrastructure and as far as I know this is being resisted by the Greeks."
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That's just wrong
Every country runs a deficit
From low ones like Australia to high ones like Japan.
We for hundreds of years had a system called.... Capitalism, this system regulated your debt!
It wasn't Greece that forced people to give them money!
When you go for a mortgage, the bank look at many factors
Your income
Your outgoings
Your history
And the asset their lending you on
When the banks went mad lending to every tit with a shack... They also lent to every country with a government.
If you can't get the money you want for the mortgage, it in effect forces you to alter
You either
Increase incoming
Decrease outgoings
Improve your history
Or increase the value of your asset
Basic banking fundamentals were ignored so they were either incompetent or fraudulent?.
The % at which you borrow usually is meant to show risk
Greece borrowed at as low as 4% while in the euro but 23% while in the drachma.... Either they drastically improved their economy or the banks assumed Germany would be their guarantor!... Either way they were wrong and they should fail on their wrong decisions |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If Greece was a company you would get what is called a debt for equity swap. The banks and shareholders would recognise that the company couldn't afford its debt, and that slashing costs and doing everything it can to pay its debt rather than focusing on trying to grow its company would lead to a long slow death.
A complete balance sheet restructuring with debt holders taking an equity (variable) return instead of a debt (fixed) return, with a resultant significant reduction of the amount of debt that needs to be serviced is the norm. The payback is over a much longer period, but it gives everyone a chance.
Problem here is there appears to be no structure for the debt holders to effectively take an "equity" stake. With so many smart people involved, surely it can't be difficult to find a mechanism that gives the Greek short term breathing space while giving the economy a chance to recover and the creditors a chance to recover some of their debts albeit over a much longer period of time and with certain constraints on what any Greek government can and can't do. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"This really is a somewhat ridiculous situation and debt forgiveness, or not is completely irrelevant without fundamental change within Greece.
For those who say that the problem is not with Greece but with those who gave the money in the first place... Why would they now give more? Is that not throwing good money after bad? If they were wrong to lend in the first place why would they now be right to lend even more?
Forgiving 10 billion, 50 billion or 100 billion is pointless unless there is going to be fundamental change in Greek infrastructure and as far as I know this is being resisted by the Greeks..
That's just wrong
Every country runs a deficit
From low ones like Australia to high ones like Japan.
We for hundreds of years had a system called.... Capitalism, this system regulated your debt!
It wasn't Greece that forced people to give them money!
When you go for a mortgage, the bank look at many factors
Your income
Your outgoings
Your history
And the asset their lending you on
When the banks went mad lending to every tit with a shack... They also lent to every country with a government.
If you can't get the money you want for the mortgage, it in effect forces you to alter
You either
Increase incoming
Decrease outgoings
Improve your history
Or increase the value of your asset
Basic banking fundamentals were ignored so they were either incompetent or fraudulent?.
The % at which you borrow usually is meant to show risk
Greece borrowed at as low as 4% while in the euro but 23% while in the drachma.... Either they drastically improved their economy or the banks assumed Germany would be their guarantor!... Either way they were wrong and they should fail on their wrong decisions"
And that had what to do with the post you quoted? ... Nothing.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"This really is a somewhat ridiculous situation and debt forgiveness, or not is completely irrelevant without fundamental change within Greece.
For those who say that the problem is not with Greece but with those who gave the money in the first place... Why would they now give more? Is that not throwing good money after bad? If they were wrong to lend in the first place why would they now be right to lend even more?
Forgiving 10 billion, 50 billion or 100 billion is pointless unless there is going to be fundamental change in Greek infrastructure and as far as I know this is being resisted by the Greeks..
That's just wrong
Every country runs a deficit
From low ones like Australia to high ones like Japan.
We for hundreds of years had a system called.... Capitalism, this system regulated your debt!
It wasn't Greece that forced people to give them money!
When you go for a mortgage, the bank look at many factors
Your income
Your outgoings
Your history
And the asset their lending you on
When the banks went mad lending to every tit with a shack... They also lent to every country with a government.
If you can't get the money you want for the mortgage, it in effect forces you to alter
You either
Increase incoming
Decrease outgoings
Improve your history
Or increase the value of your asset
Basic banking fundamentals were ignored so they were either incompetent or fraudulent?.
The % at which you borrow usually is meant to show risk
Greece borrowed at as low as 4% while in the euro but 23% while in the drachma.... Either they drastically improved their economy or the banks assumed Germany would be their guarantor!... Either way they were wrong and they should fail on their wrong decisions
And that had what to do with the post you quoted? ... Nothing.
"
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I know you lived in Greece so you'll know what I'm saying when I say....
How did Greece go from 24% bond rates in 1990s to 5% in 2002?
That's called market forces, when your interest rate is 24% it curtails your borrowing, no!
There debt is just as much to blame on the crazed megalomaniacs in the EU as it is for Greek mismanagement.
Look Greece and every other southern European country have a problem.... There shit!, I mean there a shit place to grow stuff, too much sun not enough rain and shit soil.
That's why they never took off and why you can't put them in a union with northern countries... Or you can buy you'll get the problem you have today!.
OK let's stick with the fundermentals.
1 They can't repay the money regardless of how much fiscal austerity they apply!
2 they either default or Germany can absorb some of their debt
3 you or I or Germany cannot enforce fiscal policy, but capitalism can!
4 they can over borrow using monetary policy and fiscal policy.. Every country in the world does it but only if you have monetary policy AND fiscal policy!
5 the euro will fail because it's fundermentally flawed and designed by flawed egotistical people with "other intentions"
6 so austerity can't repay the debt and according to a leaked imf email even twenty years of Greek growth at 4% couldn't either!
7 most crucially..... The entire debacle is a failure of the system and you can't fix a system by imposing austerity.
I'll never ever vote for the eu because it's flawed by design, intention and purpose and rather than cure right wing fascism it will create it! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"SexyBum has got it in one"
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The Germans really don't have moral high ground on debt repayment as somebody pointed out they defaulted on all their debt including a shit load they owed Greece!.
There currently making money on Greek debt, there borrowing at 0.5% and making loans to Greece at 15%.
The Greeks pretty much racked up this huge debt getting into the euro buying up hard currencies to support there weak drachma against the mark.... Which the Germans forced them to do, and then once in they had to borrow from German banks because they didn't have their own monetary policy!
And now the Germans are saying to them they have to cut everything to the bone and get really austere to get gdp growth.... Which they've done for five years and instead of helping the problem has just crashed there gdp figures...
But apparently some more austerity will definitely cure Greece and they can have some more expensive loans from Germany who can make even more money off them... And FFS no wonder the Greeks have had enough of this mass madness!
Dump this lunacy Greece!
What you need to do is get the fuck out of the lunatic asylum that is the eu and prosper through tight immigration and tourism, all those fat tourists bringing lovely hard currency in every week  |
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"
Dump this lunacy Greece!
What you need to do is get the fuck out of the lunatic asylum that is the eu and prosper through tight immigration and tourism, all those fat tourists bringing lovely hard currency in every week "
More Britains go to Greece annually than any other foreign holiday destination. So wonder whos really keeping that economy afloat. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
So many experts on the Greek economy, so many people know what is best for Greece - none of whom have probably even been there for a holiday, let alone lived there.
Greece is corrupt, always has been and nothing has changed. Greek Doctors are as well paid as their counterparts anywhere in Europe aside from what it says on their tax returns. Tax collection generally is a shambles and property taxes forgiven on the smaller island communities if deemed to be "unaffordable". The law is old and inefficient and simply incapable of assisting revenue collection.
The problem with Greeks is that they are like the French... They want to stay Greek and be European and not compromise with either. The French too want to be French and European but at least their archaic and bureaucratic systems actually generate enough cash for them not to be compelled to compromise through necessity. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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I don't doubt for a minute that Greece has a huge tax evasion problem, given the fact that they have one of the highest self-employed rates in Europe and given the fact that the self-employed have the highest instance of tax evasion, there bound to have...
And increasing tax revenues is essential to get a better grip on their debt.... However
None of that is helped by austerity! In fact you could say it just makes it easier and more widespread.
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
Dingbats are playing some game of brinkmanship.
To turn up today with nothing new to offer and suggest that a proposal will be tabled tomorrow AFTER Tsipiras has addressed Parliament.....WTF
Sentiment is Deutchsland is now to let the Greeks go and play there silly games with each other.
The big concern with that is that unless there will be immediate and significant humanitarian aid to Greece we could end up with martial law within weeks. |
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"Dingbats are playing some game of brinkmanship.
To turn up today with nothing new to offer and suggest that a proposal will be tabled tomorrow AFTER Tsipiras has addressed Parliament.....WTF
Sentiment is Deutchsland is now to let the Greeks go and play there silly games with each other.
The big concern with that is that unless there will be immediate and significant humanitarian aid to Greece we could end up with martial law within weeks."
Who gets martial law within weeks? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"SexyBum has got it in one.
The Germans really don't have moral high ground on debt repayment as somebody pointed out they defaulted on all their debt including a shit load they owed Greece!.
"
The actions of people's grandparents should be used to judge them now is what your saying? |
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"SexyBum has got it in one.
The Germans really don't have moral high ground on debt repayment as somebody pointed out they defaulted on all their debt including a shit load they owed Greece!.
The actions of people's grandparents should be used to judge them now is what your saying?"
Or for that matter, the actions of your previous government... |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Dingbats are playing some game of brinkmanship.
To turn up today with nothing new to offer and suggest that a proposal will be tabled tomorrow AFTER Tsipiras has addressed Parliament.....WTF
Sentiment is Deutchsland is now to let the Greeks go and play there silly games with each other.
The big concern with that is that unless there will be immediate and significant humanitarian aid to Greece we could end up with martial law within weeks.
Who gets martial law within weeks?"
If Greece drop out of the Euro, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that the military will take over even as a temporary measure.
Current levels of austerity will seem like a distant happy dream compared to what would come in the event of a Grexit. Thus widespread civil disobedience amongst an already divided nation and all the ingredients for a collapsing and ungovernable society. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"SexyBum has got it in one.
The Germans really don't have moral high ground on debt repayment as somebody pointed out they defaulted on all their debt including a shit load they owed Greece!.
The actions of people's grandparents should be used to judge them now is what your saying?
Or for that matter, the actions of your previous government..."
There are fundamental problems at the heart of the Greek establishment which even a 100% haircut would not help.
Until the Greeks modernise their legal and tax frameworks as well as accepting north european working hours and conditions, Greece will continue to be a basket case.
The Greeks need to learn to be good at something other than a good place to take a holiday for 3 - 4 months in a year and tax evasion. |
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"Dingbats are playing some game of brinkmanship.
To turn up today with nothing new to offer and suggest that a proposal will be tabled tomorrow AFTER Tsipiras has addressed Parliament.....WTF
Sentiment is Deutchsland is now to let the Greeks go and play there silly games with each other.
The big concern with that is that unless there will be immediate and significant humanitarian aid to Greece we could end up with martial law within weeks.
Who gets martial law within weeks?
If Greece drop out of the Euro, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that the military will take over even as a temporary measure.
Current levels of austerity will seem like a distant happy dream compared to what would come in the event of a Grexit. Thus widespread civil disobedience amongst an already divided nation and all the ingredients for a collapsing and ungovernable society. "
You makin' this shit up? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"..............
You makin' this shit up?"
Why should I be? It has happened before and there has not been a really good recession in Europe for a few generations now. I mean a really painful recession when people starve to death because their currency is worth less than bartering. The country lost 10% of its population in the post WW2 civil war and even as recently as 1974 it was ruled by a military junta.
Greek economic castraphe is in its own DNA and as a consequence its people are programmed to hoard cash knowing that another economic catastrophe is probably just around the corner.
Matthew Lynn, Greek historian about the modern Greek economy.. "Its (Greek) credit record is truly awful. After the formation of the modern Greek state in 1829 the country went on to default on its debts in 1843, 1860 and 1893. According to calculations by the economists Carmen M. Reinhart and Kenneth S. Rogoff Greece has spent more time in default to its creditors than any other European country. It has been skipping its repayments for 50 per cent of the years since 1800, compared with a mere 39 per cent of the time for the next worst offender, Russia." |
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"..............
You makin' this shit up?
Why should I be? It has happened before and there has not been a really good recession in Europe for a few generations now. I mean a really painful recession when people starve to death because their currency is worth less than bartering. The country lost 10% of its population in the post WW2 civil war and even as recently as 1974 it was ruled by a military junta.
Greek economic castraphe is in its own DNA and as a consequence its people are programmed to hoard cash knowing that another economic catastrophe is probably just around the corner.
Matthew Lynn, Greek historian about the modern Greek economy.. "Its (Greek) credit record is truly awful. After the formation of the modern Greek state in 1829 the country went on to default on its debts in 1843, 1860 and 1893. According to calculations by the economists Carmen M. Reinhart and Kenneth S. Rogoff Greece has spent more time in default to its creditors than any other European country. It has been skipping its repayments for 50 per cent of the years since 1800, compared with a mere 39 per cent of the time for the next worst offender, Russia.""
= martial law?
I still don't get it... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Dingbats are playing some game of brinkmanship.
To turn up today with nothing new to offer and suggest that a proposal will be tabled tomorrow AFTER Tsipiras has addressed Parliament.....WTF
Sentiment is Deutchsland is now to let the Greeks go and play there silly games with each other.
The big concern with that is that unless there will be immediate and significant humanitarian aid to Greece we could end up with martial law within weeks.
Who gets martial law within weeks?"
Even i only had to wait a week for a marital lay. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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More to the point, new members are meant to join the euro as part of being in the EU.
Who the fuck would join the euro now, certainly not Poland, probably not Bulgaria, Czech republic or Hungary
I can't see Sweden or Denmark rushing in although Denmark is in the erm.
So in reality is the euro already dead and are they just flogging a dead horse |
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"More to the point, new members are meant to join the euro as part of being in the EU.
Who the fuck would join the euro now, certainly not Poland, probably not Bulgaria, Czech republic or Hungary
I can't see Sweden or Denmark rushing in although Denmark is in the erm.
So in reality is the euro already dead and are they just flogging a dead horse"
I don't agree with this - the Euro is and will remain an internationally hard currency, whether or not Greece leaves and the stock markets do bouncy-bouncy |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"More to the point, new members are meant to join the euro as part of being in the EU.
Who the fuck would join the euro now, certainly not Poland, probably not Bulgaria, Czech republic or Hungary
I can't see Sweden or Denmark rushing in although Denmark is in the erm.
So in reality is the euro already dead and are they just flogging a dead horse
I don't agree with this - the Euro is and will remain an internationally hard currency, whether or not Greece leaves and the stock markets do bouncy-bouncy"
.
I'm not saying it will but if euro convergence is part of EU entry and it is. Will anybody want to join it now?.
Some economists were sceptical it would work, some thought it would, but here we see real world problems with not having a sovereign controlled monetary policy!.
In reality Holland, Germany and France won't be bothered as it really doesn't affect them, but can them three hold it together? |
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"I'm not saying it will but if euro convergence is part of EU entry and it is. Will anybody want to join it now?.
Some economists were sceptical it would work, some thought it would, but here we see real world problems with not having a sovereign controlled monetary policy!.
In reality Holland, Germany and France won't be bothered as it really doesn't affect them, but can them three hold it together?"
Yes.
It's an intrinsic part of the European project.
I don't have a problem with a single currency - don't care if I'm paid in Pounds, Dollars, Euros or bottletops, so long as I get paid. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I'm not saying it will but if euro convergence is part of EU entry and it is. Will anybody want to join it now?.
Some economists were sceptical it would work, some thought it would, but here we see real world problems with not having a sovereign controlled monetary policy!.
In reality Holland, Germany and France won't be bothered as it really doesn't affect them, but can them three hold it together?
Yes.
It's an intrinsic part of the European project.
I don't have a problem with a single currency - don't care if I'm paid in Pounds, Dollars, Euros or bottletops, so long as I get paid. "
.
Good point
Nobody cares until those bottle tops goes tits up.... Then there outraged
Seen as money in reality only buys you one thing... And that's labour
Would we better off using minutes  |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
the now is because tsipras dithered and tried to blackmail everyone with the referendum, the terms of any agreement now is likely to be worst than the referendum they voted on....
they don't have a clue.... if they dont get a deal but sunday... watch the greek banks fail on monday when the ECB withdraws support.....
thats when all hell breaks loose...
I could absolutely see martial law being introduced.... |
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Of course - it's not money that creates problems though. It's quite useful for separating labour from product. Barter would be a real bitch, no?
It's *concentration* of money that causes problems.
We also live in a free-market economy - our currencies are all vulnerable to fluctuations and movement of international capital... just look at the fun the Chinese are suddenly discovering.
Money is useful - how it is used and who holds it is an entirely different debate |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"the now is because tsipras dithered and tried to blackmail everyone with the referendum, the terms of any agreement now is likely to be worst than the referendum they voted on....
they don't have a clue.... if they dont get a deal but sunday... watch the greek banks fail on monday when the ECB withdraws support.....
thats when all hell breaks loose...
I could absolutely see martial law being introduced...."
Now where's that guy who was saying going to Greece on holiday would be a good idea  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"the now is because tsipras dithered and tried to blackmail everyone with the referendum, the terms of any agreement now is likely to be worst than the referendum they voted on....
they don't have a clue.... if they dont get a deal but sunday... watch the greek banks fail on monday when the ECB withdraws support.....
thats when all hell breaks loose...
I could absolutely see martial law being introduced...."
.
Good job they haven't got guns then, or even the money to buy guns with!.
They should have had martial law in Detroit when they went bankrupt for 20 billion?
And what about Chicago! There not that far away from Detroit, money wise |
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"the now is because tsipras dithered and tried to blackmail everyone with the referendum, the terms of any agreement now is likely to be worst than the referendum they voted on....
they don't have a clue.... if they dont get a deal but sunday... watch the greek banks fail on monday when the ECB withdraws support.....
thats when all hell breaks loose...
I could absolutely see martial law being introduced.....
Good job they haven't got guns then, or even the money to buy guns with!.
They should have had martial law in Detroit when they went bankrupt for 20 billion?
And what about Chicago! There not that far away from Detroit, money wise"
There is a strong train of thought within Greece that says 'Fuck it. How can it get worse?' |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"the now is because tsipras dithered and tried to blackmail everyone with the referendum, the terms of any agreement now is likely to be worst than the referendum they voted on....
they don't have a clue.... if they dont get a deal but sunday... watch the greek banks fail on monday when the ECB withdraws support.....
thats when all hell breaks loose...
I could absolutely see martial law being introduced.....
Good job they haven't got guns then, or even the money to buy guns with!.
They should have had martial law in Detroit when they went bankrupt for 20 billion?
And what about Chicago! There not that far away from Detroit, money wise
There is a strong train of thought within Greece that says 'Fuck it. How can it get worse?'"
.
They've been rioting in the streets for five friggin years, I hardly think they'll need martial law all of a sudden!
The good point for them is, it's been a slow train crash, most people are resolved or at least had it in the back of their minds.
I don't think the people that gave the world democracy, mathematics, science, astronomy, philosophy and medicine will suddenly turn into marauding maniacs!
There Latin not Latinos |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"the now is because tsipras dithered and tried to blackmail everyone with the referendum, the terms of any agreement now is likely to be worst than the referendum they voted on....
they don't have a clue.... if they dont get a deal but sunday... watch the greek banks fail on monday when the ECB withdraws support.....
thats when all hell breaks loose...
I could absolutely see martial law being introduced....
Now where's that guy who was saying going to Greece on holiday would be a good idea "
If & when Greece return to the Drachma, I'd imagine that it will be extremely good value for money as a tourist destination, - so that guy could well be spot on!
And by holidaying there we'll be helping them to get. back on their feet, - double whammy!! |
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From today's Private Eye
NUMBER CRUNCHING
E240bn - bailout funds received by Greece, demanding wholesale reform in return for continuing support.
E300bn - bailout funds received by Europe's banks in the wake of the financial crisis (and excluding E1tn+ in guarantees), demanding almost no reform. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is what happens when an outsider favourite nation wins the euro 2004 football championship. ..a decade later the nation goes to hell ..lol"
Lucky they didn't win the World Cup then, evidently that means 49 (& counting) years of austerity!! |
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"Of course - it's not money that creates problems though. It's quite useful for separating labour from product. Barter would be a real bitch, no?
It's *concentration* of money that causes problems.
We also live in a free-market economy - our currencies are all vulnerable to fluctuations and movement of international capital... just look at the fun the Chinese are suddenly discovering.
Money is useful - how it is used and who holds it is an entirely different debate"
If China goes 'tits-up' the whole world will be screwed!! |
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"the now is because tsipras dithered and tried to blackmail everyone with the referendum, the terms of any agreement now is likely to be worst than the referendum they voted on....
they don't have a clue.... if they dont get a deal but sunday... watch the greek banks fail on monday when the ECB withdraws support.....
thats when all hell breaks loose...
I could absolutely see martial law being introduced.....
Good job they haven't got guns then, or even the money to buy guns with!.
They should have had martial law in Detroit when they went bankrupt for 20 billion?
And what about Chicago! There not that far away from Detroit, money wise
There is a strong train of thought within Greece that says 'Fuck it. How can it get worse?'.
They've been rioting in the streets for five friggin years, I hardly think they'll need martial law all of a sudden!
The good point for them is, it's been a slow train crash, most people are resolved or at least had it in the back of their minds.
I don't think the people that gave the world democracy, mathematics, science, astronomy, philosophy and medicine will suddenly turn into marauding maniacs!
There Latin not Latinos"
They're not Latin, they're Greek and they had a military junta ruling the country from 1960 something to 1973. They've done it before and, if things get really bad, they could well do it again.
However introduction of Marshal Law in an emergency is not necessarily the same thing as a military coupe (although it's often the first step). |
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"From today's Private Eye
NUMBER CRUNCHING
E240bn - bailout funds received by Greece, demanding wholesale reform in return for continuing support.
E300bn - bailout funds received by Europe's banks in the wake of the financial crisis (and excluding E1tn+ in guarantees), demanding almost no reform. "
That's not really a fair comparison. E300bn given to 27 countries, E240bn given to 1. That's a better comparison.
Also Greece has already had between 25% to 50% of its debt written off (depending on how you work the figures). It has also already been promised that any debt over 120% of GDP at the end of 2020 will also be written off.
All the EU, ECB and IMF are saying is that if Greece wants to borrow more it has to show that it can pay it back.
This whole current crises has been caused by Tsipras and his Syriza party and the Greek electorate.
Greece actually had a budget surplus in the year 2014-15 and was heading for a surplus in 2015-16. It's economy was predicted to grow last year (2014-15) by 1 or 2%^ (I'd have to check to get the actual figure). However, Syriza getting elected last Autumn caused a massive loss of confidence and actually led directly to a sharp drop in growth in the last quarter of last year (2014-15). Tsipras' new budget also but Greece's budget back in deficit.
The reality is that there was light at the end of the tunnel for Greece but they switched tracks just as they were near the tunnel exit and now there going along a track that no one knows where it will take them and it is mostly their own fault.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"From today's Private Eye
NUMBER CRUNCHING
E240bn - bailout funds received by Greece, demanding wholesale reform in return for continuing support.
E300bn - bailout funds received by Europe's banks in the wake of the financial crisis (and excluding E1tn+ in guarantees), demanding almost no reform.
That's not really a fair comparison. E300bn given to 27 countries, E240bn given to 1. That's a better comparison.
Also Greece has already had between 25% to 50% of its debt written off (depending on how you work the figures). It has also already been promised that any debt over 120% of GDP at the end of 2020 will also be written off.
All the EU, ECB and IMF are saying is that if Greece wants to borrow more it has to show that it can pay it back.
This whole current crises has been caused by Tsipras and his Syriza party and the Greek electorate.
Greece actually had a budget surplus in the year 2014-15 and was heading for a surplus in 2015-16. It's economy was predicted to grow last year (2014-15) by 1 or 2%^ (I'd have to check to get the actual figure). However, Syriza getting elected last Autumn caused a massive loss of confidence and actually led directly to a sharp drop in growth in the last quarter of last year (2014-15). Tsipras' new budget also but Greece's budget back in deficit.
The reality is that there was light at the end of the tunnel for Greece but they switched tracks just as they were near the tunnel exit and now there going along a track that no one knows where it will take them and it is mostly their own fault.
"
Near the end of the tunnel for whom? Certainly not the average Greek! |
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"From today's Private Eye
NUMBER CRUNCHING
E240bn - bailout funds received by Greece, demanding wholesale reform in return for continuing support.
E300bn - bailout funds received by Europe's banks in the wake of the financial crisis (and excluding E1tn+ in guarantees), demanding almost no reform.
That's not really a fair comparison. E300bn given to 27 countries, E240bn given to 1. That's a better comparison.
Also Greece has already had between 25% to 50% of its debt written off (depending on how you work the figures). It has also already been promised that any debt over 120% of GDP at the end of 2020 will also be written off.
All the EU, ECB and IMF are saying is that if Greece wants to borrow more it has to show that it can pay it back.
This whole current crises has been caused by Tsipras and his Syriza party and the Greek electorate.
Greece actually had a budget surplus in the year 2014-15 and was heading for a surplus in 2015-16. It's economy was predicted to grow last year (2014-15) by 1 or 2%^ (I'd have to check to get the actual figure). However, Syriza getting elected last Autumn caused a massive loss of confidence and actually led directly to a sharp drop in growth in the last quarter of last year (2014-15). Tsipras' new budget also but Greece's budget back in deficit.
The reality is that there was light at the end of the tunnel for Greece but they switched tracks just as they were near the tunnel exit and now there going along a track that no one knows where it will take them and it is mostly their own fault.
Near the end of the tunnel for whom? Certainly not the average Greek! "
I agree they have had a bad time but now they have a choice of either having a very bad or a total disaster, all thanks to Tsipras playing poker with their lives. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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But so many of them cannot imagine any worse, they've been living off the bones of their arses - & it sounds to me like they, the majority, the poorest, were the only ones who weren't fiddling their taxes!
They, voted against austerity & the latest government. That's democracy & I can hardly blame them for that!!
The richest have got richer here since the banking collapse, there's now a record number of millionaires - yet the average working man or woman has also taken the full kick of austerity!
The grand pyramid game is proving to be a failure. IMHO of course |
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"But so many of them cannot imagine any worse, they've been living off the bones of their arses - & it sounds to me like they, the majority, the poorest, were the only ones who weren't fiddling their taxes!
They, voted against austerity & the latest government. That's democracy & I can hardly blame them for that!!
The richest have got richer here since the banking collapse, there's now a record number of millionaires - yet the average working man or woman has also taken the full kick of austerity!
The grand pyramid game is proving to be a failure. IMHO of course"
It's not really democratic if 6,000,000 (60% of Greek population) vote for 500,000,000 people in the rest of Europe, who have had no vote, to not only pay their debts but lend them even more money knowing, without change, they'll never be able to pay them back.
The real shame about Greece is that they had already gone through the worst and were just about to start seeing the benefits when they voted to stop taking the medicine. Now it looks like they are going to suffer even more. And it will be a lot worse than what they have already had.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"But so many of them cannot imagine any worse, they've been living off the bones of their arses - & it sounds to me like they, the majority, the poorest, were the only ones who weren't fiddling their taxes!
They, voted against austerity & the latest government. That's democracy & I can hardly blame them for that!!
The richest have got richer here since the banking collapse, there's now a record number of millionaires - yet the average working man or woman has also taken the full kick of austerity!
The grand pyramid game is proving to be a failure. IMHO of course
It's not really democratic if 6,000,000 (60% of Greek population) vote for 500,000,000 people in the rest of Europe, who have had no vote, to not only pay their debts but lend them even more money knowing, without change, they'll never be able to pay them back.
The real shame about Greece is that they had already gone through the worst and were just about to start seeing the benefits when they voted to stop taking the medicine. Now it looks like they are going to suffer even more. And it will be a lot worse than what they have already had.
"
Again correction
Greece never saw the funds from Brussels - the so called credits went directly to French/German banks and insurances to pay off existing debts interest payments and repayments on new debt.
The total amount in 5 years which went to Greece was Euro 12.5 billion the remaining was used to repay loans and interest payments.
The mistake is square to be placed on the doorsteps of Frankfurt and Berlin who both did not want to take a hit in first place of 40-50% loan cut.
Now Mrs Merkel is finding herself more and more alone..She lied to the Germans to get re-elected by stating the loans were not at risk and now?!
Even the IMF is now saying a minimum of 30% hair cut on the loans...
The Greeces did right to reject the unsensable demands from Brussels... OAP's sleeping in the streets, hospitals without medic's, fire services without petrol... THAT is what Greece is going through!
In Italy every 10 family is on a diet that can be called "nothing"... They are meeting the demands of Brussels and for what?? So that their OAP's have nothing... |
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"From today's Private Eye
NUMBER CRUNCHING
E240bn - bailout funds received by Greece, demanding wholesale reform in return for continuing support.
E300bn - bailout funds received by Europe's banks in the wake of the financial crisis (and excluding E1tn+ in guarantees), demanding almost no reform.
That's not really a fair comparison. E300bn given to 27 countries, E240bn given to 1. That's a better comparison.
Also Greece has already had between 25% to 50% of its debt written off (depending on how you work the figures). It has also already been promised that any debt over 120% of GDP at the end of 2020 will also be written off.
All the EU, ECB and IMF are saying is that if Greece wants to borrow more it has to show that it can pay it back.
This whole current crises has been caused by Tsipras and his Syriza party and the Greek electorate.
Greece actually had a budget surplus in the year 2014-15 and was heading for a surplus in 2015-16. It's economy was predicted to grow last year (2014-15) by 1 or 2%^ (I'd have to check to get the actual figure). However, Syriza getting elected last Autumn caused a massive loss of confidence and actually led directly to a sharp drop in growth in the last quarter of last year (2014-15). Tsipras' new budget also but Greece's budget back in deficit.
The reality is that there was light at the end of the tunnel for Greece but they switched tracks just as they were near the tunnel exit and now there going along a track that no one knows where it will take them and it is mostly their own fault.
"
No it's not *really* a fair comparison but the E300bn (don;t forget the E1tn+ in guarantees) doesn't go to governments, it goes to some of the wealthiest institutions in Europe - the banks.
And they're not asked to reform... |
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"But so many of them cannot imagine any worse, they've been living off the bones of their arses - & it sounds to me like they, the majority, the poorest, were the only ones who weren't fiddling their taxes!
They, voted against austerity & the latest government. That's democracy & I can hardly blame them for that!!
The richest have got richer here since the banking collapse, there's now a record number of millionaires - yet the average working man or woman has also taken the full kick of austerity!
The grand pyramid game is proving to be a failure. IMHO of course
It's not really democratic if 6,000,000 (60% of Greek population) vote for 500,000,000 people in the rest of Europe, who have had no vote, to not only pay their debts but lend them even more money knowing, without change, they'll never be able to pay them back.
The real shame about Greece is that they had already gone through the worst and were just about to start seeing the benefits when they voted to stop taking the medicine. Now it looks like they are going to suffer even more. And it will be a lot worse than what they have already had.
Again correction
Greece never saw the funds from Brussels - the so called credits went directly to French/German banks and insurances to pay off existing debts interest payments and repayments on new debt.
The total amount in 5 years which went to Greece was Euro 12.5 billion the remaining was used to repay loans and interest payments.
The mistake is square to be placed on the doorsteps of Frankfurt and Berlin who both did not want to take a hit in first place of 40-50% loan cut.
Now Mrs Merkel is finding herself more and more alone..She lied to the Germans to get re-elected by stating the loans were not at risk and now?!
Even the IMF is now saying a minimum of 30% hair cut on the loans...
The Greeces did right to reject the unsensable demands from Brussels... OAP's sleeping in the streets, hospitals without medic's, fire services without petrol... THAT is what Greece is going through!
In Italy every 10 family is on a diet that can be called "nothing"... They are meeting the demands of Brussels and for what?? So that their OAP's have nothing..."
But, having gone through all that pain it seems daft to through it all away to achieve what? Even more and worse pain, because that's what's coming Greeks way now.
As for your correction; Thanks (and I do mean that because it's useful information for those that don't know) but I did not actually say anything about where the money had actually gone. I was only commenting on the legitimacy of the 'so-called' democratic process Greece has gone through. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Like I said, the average working man or woman is a long, long way from the end of the tunnel, probably just beyond the beginning & a generation from any kind of light, so I cannot blame them for anti-austerity.
Perhaps there needs to be a coup, change the name from Greece to a 'brand new' state called Hellas & start again fresh debt free!
I cant see that being anywhere near as bad for them as the hole that they're now in!! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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If your a gangster, you know the really nasty type who deals in ugly shit, when some small fry messes with your "business" , you know steals the odd 100 quid here and there, it doesn't really bother the big nasty scumbag gangster, it's a drop in his overall takings..... However!
He's still going to decapitate the little scrote because in reality he needs to show control to all those other little fish who might be thinking of doing the same!
He's going to beat that little worm really good leaving bloodied and battered for all those little fish to stare at.... Thinking thank Christ that's not me!.
Go ahead Spain, Italy, Ireland... Take a good look at Greece, do you want the beating we've just given Greece... Yeah you've seen us kick the shit out of third world crap holes before but you know we can do first world when push comes to shove!..... Now pay me my protection money or else!
It's like their old friends Gaddafi, Hussain ... Yeah sure we'll let you run amok killing all your own citizens and selling us your oil cheaply in return but wait.... What do you mean you want to sell your oil in Euros... We sell oil in dollars, that's the deal!.
Oh and because you two threaten to start selling in Euros... Now the others want to...
Take a good look at Iraq and Libya laying beaten black and blue, do you want the same Syria... Fuck you take that shit!.
Now what was that you were saying Russia, Venezuela and Iran... Oh your happy to keep selling in dollars now... Oh that's good.
They keep a tight grip because they know how easily it can slip from their grasp and like a house of cards.... Poof  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If your a gangster, you know the really nasty type who deals in ugly shit, when some small fry messes with your "business" , you know steals the odd 100 quid here and there, it doesn't really bother the big nasty scumbag gangster, it's a drop in his overall takings..... However!
He's still going to decapitate the little scrote because in reality he needs to show control to all those other little fish who might be thinking of doing the same!
He's going to beat that little worm really good leaving bloodied and battered for all those little fish to stare at.... Thinking thank Christ that's not me!.
Go ahead Spain, Italy, Ireland... Take a good look at Greece, do you want the beating we've just given Greece... Yeah you've seen us kick the shit out of third world crap holes before but you know we can do first world when push comes to shove!..... Now pay me my protection money or else!
It's like their old friends Gaddafi, Hussain ... Yeah sure we'll let you run amok killing all your own citizens and selling us your oil cheaply in return but wait.... What do you mean you want to sell your oil in Euros... We sell oil in dollars, that's the deal!.
Oh and because you two threaten to start selling in Euros... Now the others want to...
Take a good look at Iraq and Libya laying beaten black and blue, do you want the same Syria... Fuck you take that shit!.
Now what was that you were saying Russia, Venezuela and Iran... Oh your happy to keep selling in dollars now... Oh that's good.
They keep a tight grip because they know how easily it can slip from their grasp and like a house of cards.... Poof "
Ironic you mention risk when they're heading BRICS push to find a new reserve currency.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If your a gangster, you know the really nasty type who deals in ugly shit, when some small fry messes with your "business" , you know steals the odd 100 quid here and there, it doesn't really bother the big nasty scumbag gangster, it's a drop in his overall takings..... However!
He's still going to decapitate the little scrote because in reality he needs to show control to all those other little fish who might be thinking of doing the same!
He's going to beat that little worm really good leaving bloodied and battered for all those little fish to stare at.... Thinking thank Christ that's not me!.
Go ahead Spain, Italy, Ireland... Take a good look at Greece, do you want the beating we've just given Greece... Yeah you've seen us kick the shit out of third world crap holes before but you know we can do first world when push comes to shove!..... Now pay me my protection money or else!
It's like their old friends Gaddafi, Hussain ... Yeah sure we'll let you run amok killing all your own citizens and selling us your oil cheaply in return but wait.... What do you mean you want to sell your oil in Euros... We sell oil in dollars, that's the deal!.
Oh and because you two threaten to start selling in Euros... Now the others want to...
Take a good look at Iraq and Libya laying beaten black and blue, do you want the same Syria... Fuck you take that shit!.
Now what was that you were saying Russia, Venezuela and Iran... Oh your happy to keep selling in dollars now... Oh that's good.
They keep a tight grip because they know how easily it can slip from their grasp and like a house of cards.... Poof "
A couple of years ago when British mp's were summoned back to Parliament to vote on a possible bombing of Syria, - personally, I chuckled because it was seemingly obvious that the Yanks weren't going in (so bum trouble persued) - & this was August!! ..which totally fucked their 'well earned' holidays 
. But thankfully those 'bad boys' Russia & China were the stumbling block of the UN resolution, otherwise Syria would now be the First State Of The I.S!!
Is there anyone out there who've actually realised that we're being ruled by a big bunch of buffoons who're being leant on by an even bigger Gin-swilling bunch of whom call themselves the military???
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"Like I said, the average working man or woman is a long, long way from the end of the tunnel, probably just beyond the beginning & a generation from any kind of light, so I cannot blame them for anti-austerity.
Perhaps there needs to be a coup, change the name from Greece to a 'brand new' state called Hellas & start again fresh debt free!
I cant see that being anywhere near as bad for them as the hole that they're now in!!"
It's not really about their current debt. The EU/ECB/IMF could, and maybe should forgive Greece all its debt but, unless Greece cuts its spending or increases its tax take we'll all be back here again in 5 to 10 years. The only other alternative is to leave the Euro and devalue its currency. There are no other alternative regardless what ever they decide to call themselves. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Like I said, the average working man or woman is a long, long way from the end of the tunnel, probably just beyond the beginning & a generation from any kind of light, so I cannot blame them for anti-austerity.
Perhaps there needs to be a coup, change the name from Greece to a 'brand new' state called Hellas & start again fresh debt free!
I cant see that being anywhere near as bad for them as the hole that they're now in!!
It's not really about their current debt. The EU/ECB/IMF could, and maybe should forgive Greece all its debt but, unless Greece cuts its spending or increases its tax take we'll all be back here again in 5 to 10 years. The only other alternative is to leave the Euro and devalue its currency. There are no other. Lalternative regardless what ever they decide to call themselves."
The Drachma! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Like I said, the average working man or woman is a long, long way from the end of the tunnel, probably just beyond the beginning & a generation from any kind of light, so I cannot blame them for anti-austerity.
Perhaps there needs to be a coup, change the name from Greece to a 'brand new' state called Hellas & start again fresh debt free!
I cant see that being anywhere near as bad for them as the hole that they're now in!!
It's not really about their current debt. The EU/ECB/IMF could, and maybe should forgive Greece all its debt but, unless Greece cuts its spending or increases its tax take we'll all be back here again in 5 to 10 years. The only other alternative is to leave the Euro and devalue its currency. There are no other alternative regardless what ever they decide to call themselves."
.
De de de nah Dada da.
Straight in at five with a budget surplus
Hong Kong
In at 4
Brazil
Followed by
Chile
Macau and at number 1
Norway
Everybody else runs a deficit
France, UK,USA, Holland, Sweden, China, India, Italy, Canada, Australia, Russia,
Little tiny countries with particular skills/resources, can run surplus for awhile.
Despite Georges claims and our current national obsession with surplus budgets....
Here's my prediction
We will still be running a big deficit in 2020
Because the system is designed to run at.... Yeah deficit
Have anyone actually noticed how every time the deficit shrinks, the trade account widens!
Were on an ideological path not a fiscal path just like Greece, the only difference being the Greeks have refused to take up the ideological path!
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By *oonboyMan
over a year ago
livingston |
I find it ironic that in a country that concieved the democratic process they are hell bent on rewriting the rules . As many have mentioned Greece ,no matter what they do ,will ever be able to repay the outstanding debt. As a country of some 20 million that does not manufacture much and imports almost everything they do not have the ability to increase gdp in the way other more advanced countries do. Lets face it Germany has not changed much in its way of thinking over the last 30years, they still believe they are the driving force behind Europe so therefore they should call the shots (with France on thier coat tails). I fear Grexit will be inevitable ,maybe not now but certainly soon and the whole pack of cards that is the eurozone will crumble with it..starting possibly with portugal and so on. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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When you run your own monetary policy and fiscal policy, you can in effect run a deficit forever in economics! Sounds mad but that's the theory they choose
How much do you think the pound has devalued by in 40 years?..71%
You create more lowering the value and easing the ability to pay your growing debt, of course it's a finite policy, common sense tells you it and it would be all over by now if..... They didn't rig every market.
Four x, libour, gold, exchange, stocks, interest rates.
If free markets ran freely.. Why do you need a minimum wage, that would be set by need not greed!
What they found out in 1929 is that free markets fail, and when they fail they fail to the scale of the growth... It's how capitalism works the entire system requires failure, only people at the top, the very top, have got used to a very nice life and they don't wish to give that up, so what you get today is those very top 0.01% manipulating every possible thing they can to stop that failure.
0% interest rates
Gold sell off
Pension raids
Market manipulation
Invasions
Fiscal policy
Monetary policy
Housing policy
Energy policy
Every year they have to manipulate more to keep the system from doing what it wants to do and that's
Crashing
Which is why they just can't let Greece go |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"population is around 10.8 million, and dropping like a stone..connie x"
Problem also is that the holiday season is very much shorter these days. I lived in Corfu 85 & 86 and the season started with a bang at Easter and only really eased off after the second week in October. I loved living in Corfu town that Winter in the middle. |
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"When you run your own monetary policy and fiscal policy, you can in effect run a deficit forever in economics! Sounds mad but that's the theory they choose
How much do you think the pound has devalued by in 40 years?..71%
You create more lowering the value and easing the ability to pay your growing debt, of course it's a finite policy, common sense tells you it and it would be all over by now if..... They didn't rig every market.
Four x, libour, gold, exchange, stocks, interest rates.
If free markets ran freely.. Why do you need a minimum wage, that would be set by need not greed!
What they found out in 1929 is that free markets fail, and when they fail they fail to the scale of the growth... It's how capitalism works the entire system requires failure, only people at the top, the very top, have got used to a very nice life and they don't wish to give that up, so what you get today is those very top 0.01% manipulating every possible thing they can to stop that failure.
0% interest rates
Gold sell off
Pension raids
Market manipulation
Invasions
Fiscal policy
Monetary policy
Housing policy
Energy policy
Every year they have to manipulate more to keep the system from doing what it wants to do and that's
Crashing
Which is why they just can't let Greece go"
nice list
you call it manipulation they call it management |
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" The big concern with that is that unless there will be immediate and significant humanitarian aid to Greece we could end up with martial law within weeks."
de? 'martial' a??? 'Marshall', 
(to slightly misquote Pope Gregory I)
That's what they need now, not just money, but a long-term plan.
Mr ddc |
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" The big concern with that is that unless there will be immediate and significant humanitarian aid to Greece we could end up with martial law within weeks.
de? 'martial' a??? 'Marshall',
(to slightly misquote Pope Gregory I)
That's what they need now, not just money, but a long-term plan.
Mr ddc"
Oh bums, can't we use greek characters
It was meant to be greek for 'not..... but'
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" The big concern with that is that unless there will be immediate and significant humanitarian aid to Greece we could end up with martial law within weeks.
de? 'martial' a??? 'Marshall',
(to slightly misquote Pope Gregory I)
That's what they need now, not just money, but a long-term plan.
Mr ddc
Oh bums, can't we use greek characters
It was meant to be greek for 'not..... but'
"
The troika has taken them all as collateral.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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So a new bail out loan has been agreed. By all accounts a tougher deal with considerably more austerity measures included than the one the Greeks rejected in their referendum last week. Along with all the damage that's been done to the Greek economy in the last few quarters and especially the last couple of weeks. Could have seen this coming when Tsipras was elected. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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I believe there playing some beetles songs to cheer the Greeks up. Tax man and carry that weight!.
can kicked, Greeks kicked
I think it's known as a coup d'etat ,I can't see the Greeks voting for the new measures but hey ho.
I'm not worried about tsprias.
I'm worried about the far right
True fins, national front, adf, golden dawn.
Every country in the EU now has considerable anti eu parties, and quite frankly you can see why! |
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Typical EU fudge, with plenty of scope for continued headlines/column inches still to come.
Let's face it, the Germans were always going to lend them the money so that the Greeks could continue to afford to buy German goods. We did it in the 19thC, the Americans did it to us after both world wars. That's the dodgy bit about free-market capitalism SB, if someone is too poor to buy your goods, lend them the money first, then you make a profit on the goods AND the loan.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Its not surprising to me we've been doing it to the third world for years, central and south America, near enough all of Africa.
I read a book years ago called confessions of an economic hitman by John Perkins..... Turns out it was all about economics and the IMF... Not quite what I was hoping for!! Anyhow, it's a fascinating read on exactly what goes on with international bank loans! |
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I'm sure I read somewhere that the Germans are making more money on their loans to Greece, than they are paying on their own loans.
Surely a single currency should have a single rate of borrowing? Otherwise it just looks like a group of countries all using their own currency, but calling it the same name.
Obviously that wouldn't suit the Germans, but wasn't there talk of 'the price you have to pay in order to be part of the greater European project'?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Meerkat should suck it up. Don't know about a Grexit there should never have been a Grentrance...... The Greek economy met NONE of the criteria for entering the Euro. It was pushed through by German and French bankers and Eurocrats....... That's where the debt now lies.
Their fault....they can take the punishment. Greeks should tell em where to shove their IOUs. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Meerkat should suck it up. Don't know about a Grexit there should never have been a Grentrance...... The Greek economy met NONE of the criteria for entering the Euro. It was pushed through by German and French bankers and Eurocrats....... That's where the debt now lies.
Their fault....they can take the punishment. Greeks should tell em where to shove their IOUs. "
It's all well and good saying that but that's not how reality works.
If Greece did just turn around and tell everyone to shove it they'd have issues buying food their companies wouldn't be able to operate their country would be destroyed for a long time.
As it is life carries on a little bit harsher for this generation but it will all be back to normal in a decade or two.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I'm sure I read somewhere that the Germans are making more money on their loans to Greece, than they are paying on their own loans.
Surely a single currency should have a single rate of borrowing? Otherwise it just looks like a group of countries all using their own currency, but calling it the same name.
Obviously that wouldn't suit the Germans, but wasn't there talk of 'the price you have to pay in order to be part of the greater European project'?
"
.
The Germans are making money hand over fist on Greek loans.
There borrowing at 0.5%and lending at 15%.
Capitalism is great depending on which end your at |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Meerkat should suck it up. Don't know about a Grexit there should never have been a Grentrance...... The Greek economy met NONE of the criteria for entering the Euro. It was pushed through by German and French bankers and Eurocrats....... That's where the debt now lies.
Their fault....they can take the punishment. Greeks should tell em where to shove their IOUs.
It's all well and good saying that but that's not how reality works.
If Greece did just turn around and tell everyone to shove it they'd have issues buying food their companies wouldn't be able to operate their country would be destroyed for a long time.
As it is life carries on a little bit harsher for this generation but it will all be back to normal in a decade or two.
"
.
Err according to the IMF,s own figures it's 47 years of austerity
Or they need 20 years of growth at 4%.... Either way..... It's never going to happen |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"anyone fancy a bet on how long till they default on this latest bail out, if its passed by the Parliament.."
.
They are attempting to kick it down the road for another two years... A total waste of money and time!.
It's a stalemate Germany can't afford to let Greece go and Greece can't afford to go, so nobody's fixed anything, they've just agreed a draw and we'll all sing along like before |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Taking those numbers at face value any bank lending money to Greece risks losing it all so an 18% interest rate is fairly easy going.
How representative are they though? It's true that the 2010 loan of €53 bn was at .5% above the rate the Germans French etc had pay for the money. That works out at 0.7% today.
The €142 billion provided in 2012 is at slightly under 2% and they don't have to start paying interest/capital until 2021.
Another €20 billion from the ecb was used to buy back bonds to reduce Greek debt costs and the terms on that are that provided they follow the reform conditions Greece gets all the interest back plus any capital gains from the bonds as they mature. That's a really harsh "I'll bail you out and then pay you the interest and a bit more" from the nasty bankers.
Last year Greece was able to get bond issue out at 4.5% and raise money at reasonable rates because it was following the recovery strategy. Once the new government came in and started playing fast and loose Greek government borrowing rates rocketed again.
Given their performance they'd be lucky to find private bankers offering to lend at rates as low as 18% whether German or from anywhere else.
If you read the draft imf report on sustainability you'll find that they say that the loans were sustainable until the change of government, disastrous policies and loss of confidence at the start of this year.
Beware of Greeks bearing gifts. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Where did the Greek debt come from? In 1985 the GDP to debt was about 30%
Buying German marks to strengthen the drachma pre erm entry
Once in the euro and you can't print your own money via a monetary policy(like every other country).
They borrowed from German and French banks.. At 5% despite there previous bond rating pre euro being 24%.
Where did the vast majority of bailout money the European public lent to Greece go!!.
German and French banks, private debt got repayed by public debt?.
In effect we didn't bail out Greece but German and French banks!..
Join the fourth Reich I mean the ecb/euro if you like.... But don't drag me into it! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Merkel got walloped by the AFB in Hamburg.... Not only do I think she's a Nazi but a large percentage of Germans do too
Although I do like that EU flag rearranged to make the stars into a swastika.... Very apt |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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The IMF predictions aren't worth shit, they've been massively wrong about Greece every year since 2010.
Here is a much better prediction from 320bc
Republics decline into democracies and democracies degenerate into despotisms
Aristotle |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Only because the markets forced us out of the erm in 1990 otherwise the Tory party were all for the euro just like the labour party, the liberal party, the green party and the SNP.... They all agree it's the best thing since sliced bread... That very fact should tell you something on its own! |
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By *dd269Man
over a year ago
Clee |
The Greeks had their economy ruined by Germany in WW2 and they've never recovered since. They don't have any real industry, such as the German one which was rebuilt by the Americans thanks to the Marshall Plan.
The Greeks only have tourism - and of course shipping. But I don't think the Onassis family pays much tax! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Mr ddc
Oh bums, can't we use greek characters
The troika has taken them all as collateral....
I always thought that Linda Bellingham took the Oxi years ago "
That was to warm her up after the type of movies she made. |
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"They borrowed from German and French banks.. .
Where did the vast majority of bailout money the European public lent to Greece go!!.
German and French banks, private debt got repayed by public debt?.
In effect we didn't bail out Greece but German and French banks!.."
Except whose money was in those banks? The taxpayers of Germany and France. And who pays the bulk of the tax in those countries? People rich enough to have a shed-load of cash in banks. So really the 'bailing out the banks' bit is a bit irrelevant. The Greek tax-payer still owes the money to rich people in those countries, just via their government and not a business. The governments bought the debts of the banks in order to stop a bank-run and mass panic.
Personally I think we should have stuck with the government-backed limits we had, and made everyone with deposits about that level take a haircut.
(but then what do I care, I'm bald |
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"
I always thought that Linda Bellingham took the Oxi years ago
That was to warm her up after the type of movies she made. "
(Thanks Google!)
I never realised she was that kind of girl
Ironic that Oxo only make beef, chicken, veg and lamb flavours - it would appear she liked a bit of pork |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"They borrowed from German and French banks.. .
Where did the vast majority of bailout money the European public lent to Greece go!!.
German and French banks, private debt got repayed by public debt?.
In effect we didn't bail out Greece but German and French banks!..
Except whose money was in those banks? The taxpayers of Germany and France. And who pays the bulk of the tax in those countries? People rich enough to have a shed-load of cash in banks. So really the 'bailing out the banks' bit is a bit irrelevant. The Greek tax-payer still owes the money to rich people in those countries, just via their government and not a business. The governments bought the debts of the banks in order to stop a bank-run and mass panic.
Personally I think we should have stuck with the government-backed limits we had, and made everyone with deposits about that level take a haircut.
(but then what do I care, I'm bald"
.
When they say the Greeks never pay tax.... They don't say the wealthy Greeks don't pay tax but in reality I guess if you've got the largest merchant navy in the world... It's coz you don't pay any tax!.
Jackie Onassis always had ray-bans on
Haircuts withstanding, I believe firmly in the principle you took the risk you took the profit you should take the loss! |
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"Haircuts withstanding, I believe firmly in the principle you took the risk you took the profit you should take the loss!"
It was a very telling statistic that all the rich people were complaining after the haircuts in Cyprus about losing their money. Until someone pointed out they could have put their money somewhere safer, and made 3%pa, or gambled it in Cyprus, made a lot more, then lost part of it, and ended up with, yep, 3%.
They weren't complaining when the returns were high!
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Haircuts withstanding, I believe firmly in the principle you took the risk you took the profit you should take the loss!
It was a very telling statistic that all the rich people were complaining after the haircuts in Cyprus about losing their money. Until someone pointed out they could have put their money somewhere safer, and made 3%pa, or gambled it in Cyprus, made a lot more, then lost part of it, and ended up with, yep, 3%.
They weren't complaining when the returns were high!
"
.
I can't help but like you Mr d
 ..... God knows I tried |
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Here's another statistic.
Greek holidays are currently going cheap, as much as 30% off.
I haven't seen the details of the deal yet, but I'm pretty sure it involved VAT and other taxes on tourists of around 30%.
I'm guessing these new taxes will all be 'additional extras'.
So it looks like those German tourists will be paying themselves back after all!
I just hope there's a new 'early-morning-towel' tax |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
Here's another statistic.
Greek holidays are currently going cheap, as much as 30% off.
I haven't seen the details of the deal yet, but I'm pretty sure it involved VAT and other taxes on tourists of around 30%.
I'm guessing these new taxes will all be 'additional extras'.
So it looks like those German tourists will be paying themselves back after all!
I just hope there's a new 'early-morning-towel' tax "
.
Yeah but there willing to do a deal for cash but ssshhh don't tell the ecb there still in negotiations |
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I still say we should've clubbed together and bought an island and renamed it Fabos or summat.
I like the way that by meeting the final, final, final, final, final, FINAL, final deadline yesterday, they've now got....
er
..a new deadline.
Plus ça change
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I still say we should've clubbed together and bought an island and renamed it Fabos or summat.
I like the way that by meeting the final, final, final, final, final, FINAL, final deadline yesterday, they've now got....
er
..a new deadline.
Plus ça change
"
.
PFJ meets the JPF.... Otters noses anyone |
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"
Fuck off, I don't want any of those rich imperialist tidbits.
Well, maybe just one bag
And one for my wife, she's called Brian too dontcha kno..."
(Ps you gotta give that the thumb, or Ruggers'll string me up for using the F-word) |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
Fuck off, I don't want any of those rich imperialist tidbits.
Well, maybe just one bag
And one for my wife, she's called Brian too dontcha kno...
(Ps you gotta give that the thumb, or Ruggers'll string me up for using the F-word) "
.
Fuck off big nose! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
I always thought that Linda Bellingham took the Oxi years ago
That was to warm her up after the type of movies she made.
(Thanks Google!)
I never realised she was that kind of girl
Ironic that Oxo only make beef, chicken, veg and lamb flavours - it would appear she liked a bit of pork "
And to think of all the modern chefs who claim to have invented pulled pork. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Where did the Greek debt come from? In 1985 the GDP to debt was about 30%
Buying German marks to strengthen the drachma pre erm entry
Once in the euro and you can't print your own money via a monetary policy(like every other country).
They borrowed from German and French banks.. At 5% despite there previous bond rating pre euro being 24%.
Where did the vast majority of bailout money the European public lent to Greece go!!.
German and French banks, private debt got repayed by public debt?.
In effect we didn't bail out Greece but German and French banks!..
Join the fourth Reich I mean the ecb/euro if you like.... But don't drag me into it!"
It's great when you quote random numbers. Greek debt was less than 20% in 1975 under the military government. After they got rid of that lot they started to spend spend spend to keep people onside. Pensions, military spending, public works programmes all got funded. So debt as a proportion of GDP was about 30% in 1986. It rose to 98% in 1993 and then over the next 14 years to 105% in 2007.
Before the ERM debt rose by a factor of 5 (between 1974 and 1999). During the first 8 years of the ERM it stayed fairly flat (although still high at 100%)
Then the Greeks were hit by the recession in 2008, as was everyone else, and debt rocketed up. It had nothing to do with strengthening the drachma and a lot to do with being unable to live within their means as a nation. They've built up huge trade deficits and been unable to pay for what they've consumed because they can't keep their public budgets in balance so they've borrowed and borrowed and borrowed and borrowed again.
I'm a bit old fashioned and believe that if they borrow they should pay it back and going bankrupt to spite German French and British bankers is a daft and dishonourable option. It may make a really good soundbite about the fourth Reich, but it still leaves the Greeks thrashing around in an economy that is structurally broken as well as broke.
What the Europeans did in 2010 and 2012 was to reduce Greek interest and capital repayments to less than 4% of GDP in return for them running the country half way sensibly.
They didn't bail out German banks or French banks or British banks. They bailed out Greece.
Of course while I've been typing this stuff out the whole fucking thread has gone over to trivia, so
Fuck off big nose too |
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"
Of course while I've been typing this stuff out the whole fucking thread has gone over to trivia, so
Fuck off big nose too "
We can do humour and serious, and occasionally even saucy
Sometimes you have to laugh, or you'd cry, and personally I find the humour defuses potentially heated discussions.
Thanks for the figures, it was interesting reading: I suspected as much.
And at least having a big nose helps me sniff out any bullshit |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Of course while I've been typing this stuff out the whole fucking thread has gone over to trivia, so
Fuck off big nose too
We can do humour and serious, and occasionally even saucy
Sometimes you have to laugh, or you'd cry, and personally I find the humour defuses potentially heated discussions.
Thanks for the figures, it was interesting reading: I suspected as much.
And at least having a big nose helps me sniff out any bullshit "
Oh no ... I'm totally in favour of trivia - I go on too much when I get on a rant - but that was a generic 'fuck off big nose' aimed at no-one and anyone so I apologise for any offence caused. Though I'm sure it's not thaaaat big  |
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It's not a matter of "honour" to repay a debt when the creditor bank mispriced the risk which they did in part because of Greece being part of the Euro. Sometimes banks like other businesses make a mistake that bankrupts them. What is needed is a way to avoid "too big to fail" banks so they get wound up, proper enforcement of criminal law to financial employees and at some point restructuring of Greek debt otherwise it will be groundhog day for Grexit. |
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"
Oh no ... I'm totally in favour of trivia - I go on too much when I get on a rant - but that was a generic 'fuck off big nose' aimed at no-one and anyone so I apologise for any offence caused. Though I'm sure it's not thaaaat big "
Lol, I even had to check your age to make sure you got the 'Life of Brian' reference
(It is by the way)
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's not a matter of "honour" to repay a debt when the creditor bank mispriced the risk which they did in part because of Greece being part of the Euro. Sometimes banks like other businesses make a mistake that bankrupts them. What is needed is a way to avoid "too big to fail" banks so they get wound up, proper enforcement of criminal law to financial employees and at some point restructuring of Greek debt otherwise it will be groundhog day for Grexit."
What I understand about that idea when people put it forward is that it supports a lose lose situation. That argument runs along the lines of if you allow Greece to fail it may damage a couple of banks and they deserve what they get, no innocent civilians will be harmed. That conveniently forgets that you still leave the Greek economy dysfunctional and running at a loss, their balance of trade additionally in disastrous deficit, their banks illiquid plus now no one with any sense at all is going to willingly lend to the defaulting debtor except at punitive interest rates. The approach the European lenders have taken is to refinance the debts in a way that Greece can support itself albeit with 'austerity'. Following that programme, last year they were able to borrow money on the open market at 4.5%, as opposed to 15-25% when they screw it up, like right now.
Feeling good about poking the banks (and hedge funds) in the eye and showing them they're not too big to fail may feel like a good thing to do, but it doesn't produce a positive outcome for anyone at all.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Oh no ... I'm totally in favour of trivia - I go on too much when I get on a rant - but that was a generic 'fuck off big nose' aimed at no-one and anyone so I apologise for any offence caused. Though I'm sure it's not thaaaat big
Lol, I even had to check your age to make sure you got the 'Life of Brian' reference
(It is by the way)
"
Well beyond that age and not guilty of writing "ROMANES EUNT DOMUS" on any walls your honour. |
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"It's not a matter of "honour" to repay a debt when the creditor bank mispriced the risk which they did in part because of Greece being part of the Euro. Sometimes banks like other businesses make a mistake that bankrupts them. What is needed is a way to avoid "too big to fail" banks so they get wound up, proper enforcement of criminal law to financial employees and at some point restructuring of Greek debt otherwise it will be groundhog day for Grexit.
What I understand about that idea when people put it forward is that it supports a lose lose situation. That argument runs along the lines of if you allow Greece to fail it may damage a couple of banks and they deserve what they get, no innocent civilians will be harmed. That conveniently forgets that you still leave the Greek economy dysfunctional and running at a loss, their balance of trade additionally in disastrous deficit, their banks illiquid plus now no one with any sense at all is going to willingly lend to the defaulting debtor except at punitive interest rates. The approach the European lenders have taken is to refinance the debts in a way that Greece can support itself albeit with 'austerity'. Following that programme, last year they were able to borrow money on the open market at 4.5%, as opposed to 15-25% when they screw it up, like right now.
Feeling good about poking the banks (and hedge funds) in the eye and showing them they're not too big to fail may feel like a good thing to do, but it doesn't produce a positive outcome for anyone at all.
"
Didn't mention hedge funds because those go bust all the time without Govt intervention
I think banks can handle a little more transparency on how they have gamed the system before during and after 2008 crisis. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Didn't mention hedge funds because those go bust all the time without Govt intervention
I think banks can handle a little more transparency on how they have gamed the system before during and after 2008 crisis."
Some transparent jail time for the bigger crooks might help. There have been quite a few huge fines for banks recently but they seem to be a complete waste of time - all the bankers are going to do is find ways to pass them onto share holders and deposit holders. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's not a matter of "honour" to repay a debt when the creditor bank mispriced the risk which they did in part because of Greece being part of the Euro. Sometimes banks like other businesses make a mistake that bankrupts them. What is needed is a way to avoid "too big to fail" banks so they get wound up, proper enforcement of criminal law to financial employees and at some point restructuring of Greek debt otherwise it will be groundhog day for Grexit.
What I understand about that idea when people put it forward is that it supports a lose lose situation. That argument runs along the lines of if you allow Greece to fail it may damage a couple of banks and they deserve what they get, no innocent civilians will be harmed. That conveniently forgets that you still leave the Greek economy dysfunctional and running at a loss, their balance of trade additionally in disastrous deficit, their banks illiquid plus now no one with any sense at all is going to willingly lend to the defaulting debtor except at punitive interest rates. The approach the European lenders have taken is to refinance the debts in a way that Greece can support itself albeit with 'austerity'. Following that programme, last year they were able to borrow money on the open market at 4.5%, as opposed to 15-25% when they screw it up, like right now.
Feeling good about poking the banks (and hedge funds) in the eye and showing them they're not too big to fail may feel like a good thing to do, but it doesn't produce a positive outcome for anyone at all.
Didn't mention hedge funds because those go bust all the time without Govt intervention
I think banks can handle a little more transparency on how they have gamed the system before during and after 2008 crisis. "
It would be no bad thing if the EU joined the bandwagon and became a little bit more open and accountable. Unaudited accounts now for 20+ years and counting.
In the news today, a MEP jailed for defrauding the taxpayer of £500k, simply by way of claiming for "payments to whistleblowers"? 2004-2009 for godsake.
Difficult to say but i'd guess the whole total of fraud within the EU poliik would pay off Greece's debts?
The real question though is who has got that?
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"
Didn't mention hedge funds because those go bust all the time without Govt intervention
I think banks can handle a little more transparency on how they have gamed the system before during and after 2008 crisis. "
I think the eye opener for me was that I thought banks simply acted as middle-men between savers and borrowers, whereas the whole system simply looks like a massive gambling den. No different to taking all my savings, then putting it on the 3 o' clock at Aintree. Except when they lose it, they go cap in hand to the government.
But I still agree with SB, the difference between lending money at 1% or 15% must be an expectation that you might not get your money back. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Where did the Greek debt come from? In 1985 the GDP to debt was about 30%
Buying German marks to strengthen the drachma pre erm entry
Once in the euro and you can't print your own money via a monetary policy(like every other country).
They borrowed from German and French banks.. At 5% despite there previous bond rating pre euro being 24%.
Where did the vast majority of bailout money the European public lent to Greece go!!.
German and French banks, private debt got repayed by public debt?.
In effect we didn't bail out Greece but German and French banks!..
Join the fourth Reich I mean the ecb/euro if you like.... But don't drag me into it!
It's great when you quote random numbers. Greek debt was less than 20% in 1975 under the military government. After they got rid of that lot they started to spend spend spend to keep people onside. Pensions, military spending, public works programmes all got funded. So debt as a proportion of GDP was about 30% in 1986. It rose to 98% in 1993 and then over the next 14 years to 105% in 2007.
Before the ERM debt rose by a factor of 5 (between 1974 and 1999). During the first 8 years of the ERM it stayed fairly flat (although still high at 100%)
Then the Greeks were hit by the recession in 2008, as was everyone else, and debt rocketed up. It had nothing to do with strengthening the drachma and a lot to do with being unable to live within their means as a nation. They've built up huge trade deficits and been unable to pay for what they've consumed because they can't keep their public budgets in balance so they've borrowed and borrowed and borrowed and borrowed again.
I'm a bit old fashioned and believe that if they borrow they should pay it back and going bankrupt to spite German French and British bankers is a daft and dishonourable option. It may make a really good soundbite about the fourth Reich, but it still leaves the Greeks thrashing around in an economy that is structurally broken as well as broke.
What the Europeans did in 2010 and 2012 was to reduce Greek interest and capital repayments to less than 4% of GDP in return for them running the country half way sensibly.
They didn't bail out German banks or French banks or British banks. They bailed out Greece.
Of course while I've been typing this stuff out the whole fucking thread has gone over to trivia, so
Fuck off big nose too "
.
can i just point out to you.
Greece joined the erm in 1999
What was the joining criteria, you know what did the eu ask that your currency had to be before you were allowed to join?
My point was that Greece were buying hard currencies in 1992 when the Maastricht treaty was signed that enabled the euro, they wanted in because it was easy money that's why there bond rates went from 24% to 5%... I've never stated anywhere that Greece are and always have been a basket case economically speaking, I wouldn't have let them in but then Germany turned a blind eye to all the bullshit because they wanted them in.... They wanted the new euro to be devalued because it really really really helped them export.... And export they did!
I don't believe in bankruptcy but then I really don't think capitalism is that great and unfortunately capitalism loves flipping bankruptcy, in fact it's absolutely intrinsic to it! Even the imf have said that Greece needs debt relief... A great big bunch of it.
Only the fourth Reich isn't keen... They like to make the most out of every capitalist situation.. Like rounding up poor people into ghettos then killing people and nicking their money, or invading them military wise and then making them pay massive amounts for the privilege of being occupied.... Yeah those Greeks must be jolly nice people because after the war... They let those Nazis off repaying that debt!... I mean I bet they regret that now!
And you know the reason the Greeks let the Germans off that debt was not because they liked them out had forgive them for the occupation and the killing but because they understood that for Europe to prosper the debt needed to be forgiven and liquidity needed to be given the Humph to restart.... That's why after the war, the us the uk and all the other allied countries had 90% top tax rates.... Because imho that's the easiest way to return liquidity.... The poor can't return liquidity because they aint got no lolly, that's why austerity will fail because austerity targets the poor on a far greater %.
If I take a tenner off a rich person and give it to a poor person, next month that tenner will be back with the rich person, only you'll have created liquidity and got markets back working, then once you've fixed that initial symptom, you can then fix the problem! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It's not a matter of "honour" to repay a debt when the creditor bank mispriced the risk which they did in part because of Greece being part of the Euro. Sometimes banks like other businesses make a mistake that bankrupts them. What is needed is a way to avoid "too big to fail" banks so they get wound up, proper enforcement of criminal law to financial employees and at some point restructuring of Greek debt otherwise it will be groundhog day for Grexit.
What I understand about that idea when people put it forward is that it supports a lose lose situation. That argument runs along the lines of if you allow Greece to fail it may damage a couple of banks and they deserve what they get, no innocent civilians will be harmed. That conveniently forgets that you still leave the Greek economy dysfunctional and running at a loss, their balance of trade additionally in disastrous deficit, their banks illiquid plus now no one with any sense at all is going to willingly lend to the defaulting debtor except at punitive interest rates. The approach the European lenders have taken is to refinance the debts in a way that Greece can support itself albeit with 'austerity'. Following that programme, last year they were able to borrow money on the open market at 4.5%, as opposed to 15-25% when they screw it up, like right now.
Feeling good about poking the banks (and hedge funds) in the eye and showing them they're not too big to fail may feel like a good thing to do, but it doesn't produce a positive outcome for anyone at all.
Didn't mention hedge funds because those go bust all the time without Govt intervention
I think banks can handle a little more transparency on how they have gamed the system before during and after 2008 crisis.
It would be no bad thing if the EU joined the bandwagon and became a little bit more open and accountable. Unaudited accounts now for 20+ years and counting.
In the news today, a MEP jailed for defrauding the taxpayer of £500k, simply by way of claiming for "payments to whistleblowers"? 2004-2009 for godsake.
Difficult to say but i'd guess the whole total of fraud within the EU poliik would pay off Greece's debts?
The real question though is who has got that?
"
The unaudited accounts accusation is really boring. The accounts are audited every year and the results of the audits published. They have also been signed off year after year. You can look at the auditor's web site to see that.
The mistake people usually make is thinking that because the auditors point out exceptions that means the accounts aren't signed off. That's not true. But then people have been trotting this lie about the accounts not being signed off so often, who cares about the truth hey? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Where did the Greek debt come from? In 1985 the GDP to debt was about 30%
Buying German marks to strengthen the drachma pre erm entry
Once in the euro and you can't print your own money via a monetary policy(like every other country).
They borrowed from German and French banks.. At 5% despite there previous bond rating pre euro being 24%.
Where did the vast majority of bailout money the European public lent to Greece go!!.
German and French banks, private debt got repayed by public debt?.
In effect we didn't bail out Greece but German and French banks!..
Join the fourth Reich I mean the ecb/euro if you like.... But don't drag me into it!
It's great when you quote random numbers. Greek debt was less than 20% in 1975 under the military government. After they got rid of that lot they started to spend spend spend to keep people onside. Pensions, military spending, public works programmes all got funded. So debt as a proportion of GDP was about 30% in 1986. It rose to 98% in 1993 and then over the next 14 years to 105% in 2007.
Before the ERM debt rose by a factor of 5 (between 1974 and 1999). During the first 8 years of the ERM it stayed fairly flat (although still high at 100%)
Then the Greeks were hit by the recession in 2008, as was everyone else, and debt rocketed up. It had nothing to do with strengthening the drachma and a lot to do with being unable to live within their means as a nation. They've built up huge trade deficits and been unable to pay for what they've consumed because they can't keep their public budgets in balance so they've borrowed and borrowed and borrowed and borrowed again.
I'm a bit old fashioned and believe that if they borrow they should pay it back and going bankrupt to spite German French and British bankers is a daft and dishonourable option. It may make a really good soundbite about the fourth Reich, but it still leaves the Greeks thrashing around in an economy that is structurally broken as well as broke.
What the Europeans did in 2010 and 2012 was to reduce Greek interest and capital repayments to less than 4% of GDP in return for them running the country half way sensibly.
They didn't bail out German banks or French banks or British banks. They bailed out Greece.
Of course while I've been typing this stuff out the whole fucking thread has gone over to trivia, so
Fuck off big nose too .
can i just point out to you.
Greece joined the erm in 1999
What was the joining criteria, you know what did the eu ask that your currency had to be before you were allowed to join?
My point was that Greece were buying hard currencies in 1992 when the Maastricht treaty was signed that enabled the euro, they wanted in because it was easy money that's why there bond rates went from 24% to 5%... I've never stated anywhere that Greece are and always have been a basket case economically speaking, I wouldn't have let them in but then Germany turned a blind eye to all the bullshit because they wanted them in.... They wanted the new euro to be devalued because it really really really helped them export.... And export they did!
I don't believe in bankruptcy but then I really don't think capitalism is that great and unfortunately capitalism loves flipping bankruptcy, in fact it's absolutely intrinsic to it! Even the imf have said that Greece needs debt relief... A great big bunch of it.
Only the fourth Reich isn't keen... They like to make the most out of every capitalist situation.. Like rounding up poor people into ghettos then killing people and nicking their money, or invading them military wise and then making them pay massive amounts for the privilege of being occupied.... Yeah those Greeks must be jolly nice people because after the war... They let those Nazis off repaying that debt!... I mean I bet they regret that now!
And you know the reason the Greeks let the Germans off that debt was not because they liked them out had forgive them for the occupation and the killing but because they understood that for Europe to prosper the debt needed to be forgiven and liquidity needed to be given the Humph to restart.... That's why after the war, the us the uk and all the other allied countries had 90% top tax rates.... Because imho that's the easiest way to return liquidity.... The poor can't return liquidity because they aint got no lolly, that's why austerity will fail because austerity targets the poor on a far greater %.
If I take a tenner off a rich person and give it to a poor person, next month that tenner will be back with the rich person, only you'll have created liquidity and got markets back working, then once you've fixed that initial symptom, you can then fix the problem!"
All that fourth Reich stuff is a load of bollocks - you usually come up with something that has substance, that's not worthy of anything more than the ad hominem tag some people would put on it.
As for the point about joining the ERM in 1999, that's perfectly right. Go and look at the Greek debt as a percentage of GDP between 1992 and 2007 and you'll find that it's virtually constant at about 100-105% of GDP. The effect of joining the ERM on Greek indebtedness was nil. Look at the numbers for yourself. You can jump up and down and moan about buying hard currency as much as you like, and their debt will still be the same. When the recession hit, it rocketed in 2008/2009 - which also coincided with a massive peak in their import bill.
If you read the draft IMF report you'll find it says that the Greeks were on course to recover without further loans until the Syriza government screwed up confidence. They identify in the report that mean Greece needs an extra 60 billion (or so)... and they are very precise in saying that arises because of things that happened since January 2015 i.e. the Syriza 'government'. It's no use you saying the IMF recognise that Greece needs more money. of course it does, and it says that it's because the Greeks have pushed themselves towards bankruptcy. Before that the IMF claims that the Greeks were on course.
You can keep your tenner. Perhaps you should give them fishing lessons. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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OK I'll stick to facts, just for you... No German gimmicks
1 the Germans profiteered from and wanted Greek euro membership
2 the imf have not got one forecast about Greece right for 5 years... Long before the current shit Greek government!
3 90% of Greek bailout money went straight to German and French banks, it didn't even pass through Greek government hands!
4 these banks lent willingly to the Greek government, who we both agree have been wankers for years!
5 austerity hasn't worked in Greece in fact all its done is lower Greek GDP by 25%.
6 the Greeks can't raise tax on the very people that can get them out of trouble, the wealthy because EU rules allows the wealthy to walk away, with their assets, which conveniently they took out of Greek banks years ago.... The only people suffering now are poor pensioners, unemployed people and the working classes.... Which is why the current government got into power!!.
7 if you think syriza is bad..
Wait till the other lot get in... Then you'll see bad |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"OK I'll stick to facts, just for you... No German gimmicks
1 the Germans profiteered from and wanted Greek euro membership
*** And the Russians and the Turks and the French have profited from Greek trade. They are all major trading partners of Greece. Everyone trading is trying to make a profit, that's what trade is about. What's the point of that comment? ***
2 the imf have not got one forecast about Greece right for 5 years... Long before the current shit Greek government!
*** Yet people keep quoting one-liners from a draft IMF report out of context (on behalf of the Syriza crew?). Some even announce it as a leaked email when it was already published as a draft by the IMF ***
3 90% of Greek bailout money went straight to German and French banks, it didn't even pass through Greek government hands!
*** It would be totally stupid to give the Greeks 200 billion Euro more to spend on top of the money they'd already blown away . The Euro loans were used to buy down the overall credit level to a level the Greece could manage - if it tried ***
4 these banks lent willingly to the Greek government, who we both agree have been wankers for years!
*** Try as I might, I can't dispute that ***
5 austerity hasn't worked in Greece in fact all its done is lower Greek GDP by 25%.
*** Over a period when just about everyone has been in recession but most have realised that they have to act reasonable responsibly to get rid of debts. ***
6 the Greeks can't raise tax on the very people that can get them out of trouble, the wealthy because EU rules allows the wealthy to walk away, with their assets, which conveniently they took out of Greek banks years ago....
*** Is that why 50% of Greek income tax revenue is accruals this year (which is better than most years) i.e. the people owe it but the government will try to collect it in the future? The debt crisis is about the public deficit which is totally mismanaged, not the wealth of private individuals - although that's one of the factors contributing to Greece's banking liquidity problems with what I saw as an estimated 30 billion euros salted away in Swiss bank accounts (still only a fraction of the debt though)***
The only people suffering now are poor pensioners, unemployed people and the working classes.... Which is why the current government got into power!!.
*** Yep and they lied to the people about what they could do, they lied about the effect of their referendum and then they went back to the Europeans with an offer that was more severe than they'd been asked for 2 weeks ago. Fuck knows how they got into power and fuck knows why they should stay there. ***
7 if you think syriza is bad..
Wait till the other lot get in... Then you'll see bad
*** It's bleak whichever way you look. ***
"
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Because the Russians and the Turks didn't encourage and turn a blind eye to Greeks stupidity when it suited them.... That was the German and the French!.
Look if you don't control your money supply and you join a currency union with a big deficit.... Where do you think the money is coming from to fill in that deficit... From banks!
If you don't control your money supply because your in a union, how do you inflate your money supply?.... Through debt, expand the debt expand your money supply!
One thing is for sure the euro is not working for half of Europe!
25%/unemployment in Spain
30% unemployment in Greece
18% unemployment in Italy
20% unemployment in Portugal
That's worse unemployment figures than the US had in the great depression!
It's not working for them and its only going to get worse for them because you can't run a currency union with dozen countries who share fuck all except a currency!
So if the Germans really want it to work... Don't give the Greeks yet more money that they can't afford, give them debt relief on the money they owe and let them work through their own problems...
Because I'll tell you now in my honest opinion, this type of enforcement of fiscal policy will cause more trouble than you could possibly contemplate and certainly more trouble than some wealthy people taking a hit on some debt! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because the Russians and the Turks didn't encourage and turn a blind eye to Greeks stupidity when it suited them.... That was the German and the French!.
Look if you don't control your money supply and you join a currency union with a big deficit.... Where do you think the money is coming from to fill in that deficit... From banks!
If you don't control your money supply because your in a union, how do you inflate your money supply?.... Through debt, expand the debt expand your money supply!
One thing is for sure the euro is not working for half of Europe!
25%/unemployment in Spain
30% unemployment in Greece
18% unemployment in Italy
20% unemployment in Portugal
That's worse unemployment figures than the US had in the great depression!
It's not working for them and its only going to get worse for them because you can't run a currency union with dozen countries who share fuck all except a currency!
So if the Germans really want it to work... Don't give the Greeks yet more money that they can't afford, give them debt relief on the money they owe and let them work through their own problems...
Because I'll tell you now in my honest opinion, this type of enforcement of fiscal policy will cause more trouble than you could possibly contemplate and certainly more trouble than some wealthy people taking a hit on some debt!"
Thinking of people who's financial predictions never come true ... you're normally such a cheery soul about economics. Not to worry, every silver lining has a cloud: there's 25-35 more posts on here before this thread gets filled up. You may still be able to stop me replying in the morning..... zzzzzz |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Meerkat should suck it up. Don't know about a Grexit there should never have been a Grentrance...... The Greek economy met NONE of the criteria for entering the Euro. It was pushed through by German and French bankers and Eurocrats....... That's where the debt now lies.
Their fault....they can take the punishment. Greeks should tell em where to shove their IOUs.
It's all well and good saying that but that's not how reality works.
If Greece did just turn around and tell everyone to shove it they'd have issues buying food their companies wouldn't be able to operate their country would be destroyed for a long time.
As it is life carries on a little bit harsher for this generation but it will all be back to normal in a decade or two.
.
Err according to the IMF,s own figures it's 47 years of austerity
Or they need 20 years of growth at 4%.... Either way..... It's never going to happen"
On so 5 decades or in real terms less than one human life span....
So basically no time at all. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Meerkat should suck it up. Don't know about a Grexit there should never have been a Grentrance...... The Greek economy met NONE of the criteria for entering the Euro. It was pushed through by German and French bankers and Eurocrats....... That's where the debt now lies.
Their fault....they can take the punishment. Greeks should tell em where to shove their IOUs.
It's all well and good saying that but that's not how reality works.
If Greece did just turn around and tell everyone to shove it they'd have issues buying food their companies wouldn't be able to operate their country would be destroyed for a long time.
As it is life carries on a little bit harsher for this generation but it will all be back to normal in a decade or two.
.
Err according to the IMF,s own figures it's 47 years of austerity
Or they need 20 years of growth at 4%.... Either way..... It's never going to happen
On so 5 decades or in real terms less than one human life span....
So basically no time at all."
The IMF report doesn't refer to austerity at all though it does calculate a financial impact of the Syriza government not following the austerity programme. The report is based on debt financing levels being between 10 and 15% of GDP, which they say is acceptable, by about 2020-2022. They also say that would be more likely to happen if the Europeans doubled their interest free period to 20 years and doubled the time after that allowed to pay off the loans (to 40-70 years).
Another 5-7 years of austerity is bad enough, but they did have a lot longer to get themselves into this situation. |
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If the recent government caused "lack of confidence" in the markets, its worth remembering how fickle, stupid and panicy the markets are.
Couple of odd things, greeks haven't been allowed to cut military spending, because apparently turkey is a risk, but turkey is in nato too...
EU also expects Greece to hold alot of migrants..
We have had really poor news coverage and info, which makes me think there's alot going on.
Greece has run a surplus pre debt repayments for last few years
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Meerkat should suck it up. Don't know about a Grexit there should never have been a Grentrance...... The Greek economy met NONE of the criteria for entering the Euro. It was pushed through by German and French bankers and Eurocrats....... That's where the debt now lies.
Their fault....they can take the punishment. Greeks should tell em where to shove their IOUs.
It's all well and good saying that but that's not how reality works.
If Greece did just turn around and tell everyone to shove it they'd have issues buying food their companies wouldn't be able to operate their country would be destroyed for a long time.
As it is life carries on a little bit harsher for this generation but it will all be back to normal in a decade or two.
.
Err according to the IMF,s own figures it's 47 years of austerity
Or they need 20 years of growth at 4%.... Either way..... It's never going to happen
On so 5 decades or in real terms less than one human life span....
So basically no time at all.
The IMF report doesn't refer to austerity at all though it does calculate a financial impact of the Syriza government not following the austerity programme. The report is based on debt financing levels being between 10 and 15% of GDP, which they say is acceptable, by about 2020-2022. They also say that would be more likely to happen if the Europeans doubled their interest free period to 20 years and doubled the time after that allowed to pay off the loans (to 40-70 years).
Another 5-7 years of austerity is bad enough, but they did have a lot longer to get themselves into this situation."
.
The problem with IMF forecasts over the last five years way before syriza came into power is they've been consistently wrong and massively wrong at that!
So really you can't blame the poor Greeks for ignoring them.
So to conclude we agree that Greece borrowed to much but we disagree about what they borrowed it for, but in reality that's irrelevant anyhow.
So how to fix the problem is the big question, now you believe the IMF,ecb,eu position is correct?
I think it's a load of bollocks because you can't fix a liquidity problem caused by excessive private debt by austerity
The Germans do not have the best of intentions for Greece, they have the best of intentions for Germany, that's why Greece has had five years of shit.... Because that suits the Germans!, that's why they've kicked the can for five years added more debt, got the Greeks to jump through stupid hoops that achieved nothing in solving the Greek problem.
Ps I noticed you liked to throw in Greek history when it suited you but decreed my German history as bollocks when it didn't suit you!
Still I concurred with your assumptions of Greek debt history, it's piss poor and that's why you should leave it to a free market to hold Greece accountable and not to the new fourth Reich |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Because the Russians and the Turks didn't encourage and turn a blind eye to Greeks stupidity when it suited them.... That was the German and the French!.
Look if you don't control your money supply and you join a currency union with a big deficit.... Where do you think the money is coming from to fill in that deficit... From banks!
If you don't control your money supply because your in a union, how do you inflate your money supply?.... Through debt, expand the debt expand your money supply!
One thing is for sure the euro is not working for half of Europe!
25%/unemployment in Spain
30% unemployment in Greece
18% unemployment in Italy
20% unemployment in Portugal
That's worse unemployment figures than the US had in the great depression!
It's not working for them and its only going to get worse for them because you can't run a currency union with dozen countries who share fuck all except a currency!
So if the Germans really want it to work... Don't give the Greeks yet more money that they can't afford, give them debt relief on the money they owe and let them work through their own problems...
Because I'll tell you now in my honest opinion, this type of enforcement of fiscal policy will cause more trouble than you could possibly contemplate and certainly more trouble than some wealthy people taking a hit on some debt!"
I've no idea where you get your numbers from but I expect you've got them written on a poster on your toilet wall so you can recite them at your leisure
Anyway they're either out of date or exaggerations so if you want to scrawl fresh numbers on that poster try the following. Incidentally all they prove is that unemployment has a very nasty habit of going up during a recession.
Let's start with the failure of the euro zone. Between 1996 and 2008 it's unemployment rate fell from 11% to 7.2%. Between 2008 and 2013 it rose to 12.1% and has now fallen to 11.1%.
Italian unemployment between 1983 and 1998 rose from 7% to 11% then fell to 6% by2008. From 2008 to 2013 it rose to a peak of13% nowhere near the 18% you wrote about and its now 12.4%
To cut a long story short, Portugal Spain and Greece follow similar patterns with unemployment peaking in around 1999, falling significantly till 2008 and then rising rapidly as the recession kicks in. All seemed to peak in or around 2013 and have recorded falls since then.
SO they shared significant falls in unemployment for the best part of ten years after joining the erm, they've shared a kick in the backside from the recession and they seem to be sharing falling unemployment after the recession.
In The US unemployment went from about 2% in 1929 to 25% in 2932. It fell to about 10% by 1937 and then shot up to 20% in mid 1938. Luckily a war came along to occupy their idle hands...so their worst unemployment was far worse than the euro zone as a whole and worse than that in Italy Spain and Portugal. Greece of course is in a class of its own but I doubt your comparison with the great depression holds up.
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
And today the IMF is saying that the Eurozone leaders are wrong.... that there should have been some debt relief, and not more of the same.
Even if the Greek parliament votes to accept the proposed agreement, Greece will be in the same position as it is now at some point in the near future.
What the Eurozone should be doing is getting Greece to be able to stand on its own to feet without the debt, and then wipe the debt, or at least a large part of jt.
Nevertheless, all this goes to prove is the Euro is a failed experiment, it can only work if all the countries properly join together in economic and political union..... then the Germans will get their fourth reich. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
All of this Germany bashing is plain stupid. This next bailout will be paid for by all European taxpayers so the fucking Greeks need to stop pointing fingers and blaming everyone but themselves.
Greece got themselves in to this mess and they are the only people who can get themselves out of it. They either need to accept the terms attached to the loan and get their heads down reforming their known and accepted broken administration or they need to quit the Euro and take their own lives back in their own hands. The choice is to still have to pay back the historic debts (they won't disappear) with a devalued currency or accept more debt by staying in the Euro.
These are decisions for grown up people and I wonder if the immature and childish protestors, rioters and so called politicians that we are seeing on the news have it in them to take personal responsibility. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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They should leave the Euro. They'll still have something rest of Europe wants in droves and will still be prepared to pay for. It's a lovely place to go and once they've got a devalued currency they'll have the germans flocking in their millions, patting themselves on the back for creating such a cheap place to go on holiday. Having said that they might not want to say much in German as they might get a bunch of fives for their trouble.
Am I being a bit thick here but all they have to say is bollocks, we're not paying you back your 320 billion euro's. Crack up the printing presses and create a currency out of thin air based on the fact that they infact do have a worth, that worth being the place they live in which by and large is quite a pleasant place to be. No doubt they've been stashing away as many Euro's as they could before all the limits were put on them and I bet there's a fair few billion Euro's stashed under the mattress's of Mt Popadopulous and Co so they'll survive. No my gut feeling is they should leave and start afresh again. It'll be hard work but it'll be better making a fresh start of their own than trying to work a plan that even Aunty IMF says wont work.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They should leave the Euro. They'll still have something rest of Europe wants in droves and will still be prepared to pay for. It's a lovely place to go and once they've got a devalued currency they'll have the germans flocking in their millions, patting themselves on the back for creating such a cheap place to go on holiday. Having said that they might not want to say much in German as they might get a bunch of fives for their trouble.
Am I being a bit thick here but all they have to say is bollocks, we're not paying you back your 320 billion euro's. Crack up the printing presses and create a currency out of thin air based on the fact that they infact do have a worth, that worth being the place they live in which by and large is quite a pleasant place to be. No doubt they've been stashing away as many Euro's as they could before all the limits were put on them and I bet there's a fair few billion Euro's stashed under the mattress's of Mt Popadopulous and Co so they'll survive. No my gut feeling is they should leave and start afresh again. It'll be hard work but it'll be better making a fresh start of their own than trying to work a plan that even Aunty IMF says wont work.
"
That's an excellent idea. I wonder if they can afford the paper and ink and printing costs. Perhaps they could get a free loan from those nasty European institutions... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"All of this Germany bashing is plain stupid. This next bailout will be paid for by all European taxpayers so the fucking Greeks need to stop pointing fingers and blaming everyone but themselves.
Greece got themselves in to this mess and they are the only people who can get themselves out of it. They either need to accept the terms attached to the loan and get their heads down reforming their known and accepted broken administration or they need to quit the Euro and take their own lives back in their own hands. The choice is to still have to pay back the historic debts (they won't disappear) with a devalued currency or accept more debt by staying in the Euro.
These are decisions for grown up people and I wonder if the immature and childish protestors, rioters and so called politicians that we are seeing on the news have it in them to take personal responsibility."
It would be a welcome break if they did that. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"And today the IMF is saying that the Eurozone leaders are wrong.... that there should have been some debt relief, and not more of the same.
Even if the Greek parliament votes to accept the proposed agreement, Greece will be in the same position as it is now at some point in the near future.
What the Eurozone should be doing is getting Greece to be able to stand on its own to feet without the debt, and then wipe the debt, or at least a large part of jt.
Nevertheless, all this goes to prove is the Euro is a failed experiment, it can only work if all the countries properly join together in economic and political union..... then the Germans will get their fourth reich. "
I see that the Belgian Prime Minister has given an interview where he has said that the 19 countries of the Eurozone "need a single treasury and central taxation otherwise they may as well abandon the Euro".
Fourth Reich, anyone? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"They should leave the Euro. They'll still have something rest of Europe wants in droves and will still be prepared to pay for. It's a lovely place to go and once they've got a devalued currency they'll have the germans flocking in their millions, patting themselves on the back for creating such a cheap place to go on holiday. Having said that they might not want to say much in German as they might get a bunch of fives for their trouble.
Am I being a bit thick here but all they have to say is bollocks, we're not paying you back your 320 billion euro's. Crack up the printing presses and create a currency out of thin air based on the fact that they infact do have a worth, that worth being the place they live in which by and large is quite a pleasant place to be. No doubt they've been stashing away as many Euro's as they could before all the limits were put on them and I bet there's a fair few billion Euro's stashed under the mattress's of Mt Popadopulous and Co so they'll survive. No my gut feeling is they should leave and start afresh again. It'll be hard work but it'll be better making a fresh start of their own than trying to work a plan that even Aunty IMF says wont work.
"
The debt will never go away. Just because they say they are not going to pay does not mean that it will go away. As long as they ignore it the more difficult it would be for any Greek government to be treated like an normal country by the outside world. |
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