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Grammar Schools
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I opted out of grammar school because my sisters hated it. I didn't have any idiots disrupting my classes. You must remember that only a small percentage of children gain entry to schools that can pick and choose who they take. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I disagree. Equally as disruptive kids at grammar schools. "
At the school I worked in we had a boy leave a fee paying school to come to us,a school with over half the students on free school meals. He wasn't the best behaved student and said it's the same in his old school as it is at ours. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I know right keep them separate from the common rabble "
Grammar schools give the common rabble a chance to excel. They're not there for the elite, they're meant to be for bright and aspiring pupils.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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i went to grammar school and so did both my kids - hardly any disruptive behaviour and fantastic results - something like 90% of the kids stay on to do A levels and over 80% of those go onto uni - i think they work - well the one here did - my daughter just has a placement at my old school to do her school direct teacher training course in september |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Just linking this to the thread on intelligence the other day.
To get into grammar school when I was that age you had to sit the 11+ exam. An exam designed to see who was intelligent enough to go to a more "prestigious school"
Student A excels at maths English and science so will get in no problem.
Student B prefers art, music and the more creative subjects but still does ok at the main three subjects so had a good enough chance of getting in.
Student C doesn't perform well on written tests but excels at subjects such as I.T, graphic design and design technology, but most likely won't pass the test.
Three clever students and equally bright in different subjects, but for it to be fair they must all take the same exam in the interest of "fairness" |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"They still exist here. They're not the answer though - all types of school are good with the right teachers and supportive parents. "
Yes I know but not in any great numbers. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I disagree. Equally as disruptive kids at grammar schools.
At the school I worked in we had a boy leave a fee paying school to come to us,a school with over half the students on free school meals. He wasn't the best behaved student and said it's the same in his old school as it is at ours. "
Do you know why some fee paying schools have this problem? The school won't stamp down on it because they don't want to lose money from fee payers if they complain. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Just linking this to the thread on intelligence the other day.
To get into grammar school when I was that age you had to sit the 11+ exam. An exam designed to see who was intelligent enough to go to a more "prestigious school"
Student A excels at maths English and science so will get in no problem.
Student B prefers art, music and the more creative subjects but still does ok at the main three subjects so had a good enough chance of getting in.
Student C doesn't perform well on written tests but excels at subjects such as I.T, graphic design and design technology, but most likely won't pass the test.
Three clever students and equally bright in different subjects, but for it to be fair they must all take the same exam in the interest of "fairness" "
And the problem with the 11+ now is that many pupils are tutored for 2 years to ensure they pass. They then struggle throughout their school years in Grammar School. The test has recently been changed here to be more tutor proof , but parents still get their children tutored. It's huge pressure on the children.
I thought I'd seen they were considering all children here now sitting the 11+ again , whereas at the moment you have to opt in. You then sit it at the Grammar School of your choice. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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I'm not advocating that the 11+ is the way to allow access. It should be done on their results from course work as well as some exam results. Current teachers should also have some input. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If there were more teachers who truly cared about giving children a good education and they were able to come up with new ways to keep children engaged right through to teenage years im sure that would make a massive difference to the education system. Children get bored, if you sit them for x amount of hours a day with a textbook to copy from most children will get bored with that pretty quickly. I had brillant teachers in the past who were like this and we all paid more attention in those lessons than the ones where we were droned on at in some boring fashion.
Peach |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Fact the grammar school system was destroyed by the Tories because suddenly the hoy poloy were getting to be PM.
Labour as well its seen as equal, better than the Tories reason, although misguided.
Personally as I started in a grammar and ended in a comp, streaming is only fair for the working class, if they're good enough why hold them back, Secondaries were not that bad, better then today's comps I guess.
I'd rather they get rid of public schools or at least strip them of their charitable status, why on earth is someone like Boris Johnson not boasting he's using the same brush after 20 years, only 10 new heads and 5 new handles, rather than being touted as a next PM, if he went to a comp he would be?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm only 21, but I went to a grammar school. It was (and still is) public, with no fees.
A lot of people have raised points that I would've made already, but I genuinely enjoyed the teaching there. It was better than comprehensives and really pushed us to do well. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Back in the day the 11 plus was awful. by the age of 11 it was decided who had prospects and who was factory fodder."
University or factory. The ONLY 2 choices for your life, kids.
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Back in the day the 11 plus was awful. by the age of 11 it was decided who had prospects and who was factory fodder.
University or factory. The ONLY 2 choices for your life, kids.
"
Now it minimum wage or a huge bill with a worthless degree, I know which system I'd rather have. |
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"Fact the grammar school system was destroyed by the Tories because suddenly the hoy poloy were getting to be PM.
Labour as well its seen as equal, better than the Tories reason, although misguided.
Personally as I started in a grammar and ended in a comp, streaming is only fair for the working class, if they're good enough why hold them back, Secondaries were not that bad, better then today's comps I guess.
I'd rather they get rid of public schools or at least strip them of their charitable status, why on earth is someone like Boris Johnson not boasting he's using the same brush after 20 years, only 10 new heads and 5 new handles, rather than being touted as a next PM, if he went to a comp he would be?
"
Getting rid of public schools would cause meltdown in the state sector
Parents pay an average of £14k a year to have their children educated without the need for the govt to fund the places of 100's of 1000's of children |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Fact the grammar school system was destroyed by the Tories because suddenly the hoy poloy were getting to be PM.
Labour as well its seen as equal, better than the Tories reason, although misguided.
Personally as I started in a grammar and ended in a comp, streaming is only fair for the working class, if they're good enough why hold them back, Secondaries were not that bad, better then today's comps I guess.
I'd rather they get rid of public schools or at least strip them of their charitable status, why on earth is someone like Boris Johnson not boasting he's using the same brush after 20 years, only 10 new heads and 5 new handles, rather than being touted as a next PM, if he went to a comp he would be?
Getting rid of public schools would cause meltdown in the state sector
Parents pay an average of £14k a year to have their children educated without the need for the govt to fund the places of 100's of 1000's of children"
No they don't pay anything, it deducted off their tax bill, we pay, that £14K would come back to the treasury, I said get rid of their charitable status, not close them down, if they choose to send them to public its their right but they pay. That 14K stays on their tax bill. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Just linking this to the thread on intelligence the other day.
To get into grammar school when I was that age you had to sit the 11+ exam. An exam designed to see who was intelligent enough to go to a more "prestigious school"
Student A excels at maths English and science so will get in no problem.
Student B prefers art, music and the more creative subjects but still does ok at the main three subjects so had a good enough chance of getting in.
Student C doesn't perform well on written tests but excels at subjects such as I.T, graphic design and design technology, but most likely won't pass the test.
Three clever students and equally bright in different subjects, but for it to be fair they must all take the same exam in the interest of "fairness" "
There are grammar schools that focus on academia for student A.
There are arts schools/collages that focus on the arts for student B.
There are technology schools/colleges that focus on technology for student C.
Why is it ok to have schools for students B and C (I went to a school with both arts and technology school status) and yet we get all upset at the thought of an academic student having a space where they can excel? |
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By *igeiaWoman
over a year ago
Bristol |
I got offered a scholarship to the local private school and also passed my 11+ so could have picked a grammar school. My single parent mum let me choose so I went to the local giant comprehensive. I came out with plenty of high grade GCSEs and then A Levels, had a well rounded social group with lots of people from different backgrounds and eventually went to an apparently prestigious university. It was absolutely the right choice for me and years later I am still so grateful my mum listened to what I wanted and wasn't scared I wouldn't do well wherever I went. |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
"Back in the day the 11 plus was awful. by the age of 11 it was decided who had prospects and who was factory fodder.
University or factory. The ONLY 2 choices for your life, kids.
"
problem is the factory has closed and moved production to china .the only ones left open are the specialist niche manufacturers where you need a degree to gain employment some choice |
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Although I would be in favour of returning to the Grammar system I can would be happy if a subject streaming system was brought in. However this would require that all students in a year to be studying the same subjects at the same time and I do not think any school would be able to provide qualified enough teachers to manage this in all subjects. |
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By *qua vitaeWoman
over a year ago
Shropshire/Midlands |
"We need to bring these back so children who want to and are able to can excel without some idiot disrupting the class. "
Sometimes it's the brighter students that are more disruptive, because they're bored at being kept back with the rest of the class. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I went to a grammar school. In those days there was nothing special about them. Slightly more sadistic, more competitive but not noticably more academic.
I would suggest that discipline and lack of disciplinary measures are more of a problem |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Back in the day the 11 plus was awful. by the age of 11 it was decided who had prospects and who was factory fodder.
University or factory. The ONLY 2 choices for your life, kids.
problem is the factory has closed and moved production to china .the only ones left open are the specialist niche manufacturers where you need a degree to gain employment some choice "
Correct, but why does this country treat the factory and engineering as some some second, third class profession and doesn't matter. Well it does our trade gap is at apocalyptic proportions funded on credit.
An engineer that can make a lump of iron into something usable far outstrips a lawyer, marketing consultant or accountant in importance to a country, and so would the Chinese or Japanese, they taken on loads of our best engineers and still recruit, they don't want any office staff. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"An engineer that can make a lump of iron into something usable far outstrips a lawyer, marketing consultant or accountant in importance to a country, and so would the Chinese or Japanese, they taken on loads of our best engineers and still recruit, they don't want any office staff."
Without a lawyer, you can't take your product and business to market.
Without a marketing consultant, nobody will know about your product.
Without an accountant, you don't know how much money you have and you can't pay your bills.
They seem just as important as the engineer to me.
The sooner people work together with *all* the skills needed rather than believing one person is superior to anyone else, the better things will become. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Just linking this to the thread on intelligence the other day.
To get into grammar school when I was that age you had to sit the 11+ exam. An exam designed to see who was intelligent enough to go to a more "prestigious school"
Student A excels at maths English and science so will get in no problem.
Student B prefers art, music and the more creative subjects but still does ok at the main three subjects so had a good enough chance of getting in.
Student C doesn't perform well on written tests but excels at subjects such as I.T, graphic design and design technology, but most likely won't pass the test.
Three clever students and equally bright in different subjects, but for it to be fair they must all take the same exam in the interest of "fairness"
There are grammar schools that focus on academia for student A.
There are arts schools/collages that focus on the arts for student B.
There are technology schools/colleges that focus on technology for student C.
Why is it ok to have schools for students B and C (I went to a school with both arts and technology school status) and yet we get all upset at the thought of an academic student having a space where they can excel?"
Well said! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I got offered a scholarship to the local private school and also passed my 11+ so could have picked a grammar school. My single parent mum let me choose so I went to the local giant comprehensive. I came out with plenty of high grade GCSEs and then A Levels, had a well rounded social group with lots of people from different backgrounds and eventually went to an apparently prestigious university. It was absolutely the right choice for me and years later I am still so grateful my mum listened to what I wanted and wasn't scared I wouldn't do well wherever I went."
This is exactly it Ligeia. Different schools suit different children and it's important to take their preferences into account. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"An engineer that can make a lump of iron into something usable far outstrips a lawyer, marketing consultant or accountant in importance to a country, and so would the Chinese or Japanese, they taken on loads of our best engineers and still recruit, they don't want any office staff.
Without a lawyer, you can't take your product and business to market.
Without a marketing consultant, nobody will know about your product.
Without an accountant, you don't know how much money you have and you can't pay your bills.
They seem just as important as the engineer to me.
The sooner people work together with *all* the skills needed rather than believing one person is superior to anyone else, the better things will become."
Rubbish!
Who tells you that, they do. |
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I went to grammar and had a brilliant education, but did not go to uni. I now have a job i love and am paid well for it. My four eldest children went to the local comprehensive. All have a levels. All have uni degrees and are doing well. The younger two are still too young.
If a child wants to learn they will do well if they are given good teachers. It is not so much the school but the quality of teaching staff the school have.
Grammar schools give you an edge if you do not go to uni. After uni your secondry school is irrelevant. |
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The problem with the state system where grammar schools don't exist is that it aims to raise standards at the bottom end (always a good thing) but fails to fully cater at the medium and top end of the academic spectrum.
In Kent, we have grammar schools but clearly not enough of them.IMHO
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If there were more teachers who truly cared about giving children a good education and they were able to come up with new ways to keep children engaged right through to teenage years im sure that would make a massive difference to the education system. Children get bored, if you sit them for x amount of hours a day with a textbook to copy from most children will get bored with that pretty quickly. I had brillant teachers in the past who were like this and we all paid more attention in those lessons than the ones where we were droned on at in some boring fashion.
Peach"
Rarely the teachers fault. It's usually the department if education dictating things, that keep teachers hands tied. Very few policy makers were ever teachers. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The problem with the state system where grammar schools don't exist is that it aims to raise standards at the bottom end (always a good thing) but fails to fully cater at the medium and top end of the academic spectrum.
In Kent, we have grammar schools but clearly not enough of them.IMHO
"
The main problem with the abolition of grammar school were the upper classes and sadly the people who benefited from them, when they were at their height they produced people from previously poor backgrounds that suddenly realised they didn't need them governing them, they could do it perfectly well and better for themselves.
They were a complete success and produced a secession of PM's from Wilson to Major only Callaghan was not grammar school educated he was from a secondary school, since then as before all public school.
The disaster was from two fronts:
1. To save money largely the costs incurred during the war to build factories of learning, with a one size fits all, hard to deny at the time this seemed fair. Overall standard fell however, especially in poor areas, bullying was a huge factor and of course apathy from all layers of society and of course Labour politicians refusing to admit that this seemingly fair and just system wasn't working.
2. Sad to say but people who benefited from the grammar school system pulled the ladder up and sent their kids private, rather than as responsible citizens questioned and stopped this slide, as now they thought they were now upper class, even though they never will be.
3. The upper/ruling classes think that anyone who doesn't have a stately home, only needs to know how to read the road signs to avoid being run over and denting their car and don't care, money, food, clothes just arrive they have no idea where it comes from. |
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"Without an accountant, you don't know how much money you have and you can't pay your bills.
They seem just as important as the engineer to me.
"
A few years ago a heavy engineering company I know was bankrupted by a beancounter (sorry accountant)!
The beancounter decided that costs had to be controlled so all purchase orders had to pass over the beancounters desk for approval. When she saw orders for 20 multiples of 6, 8, 10, 12 drill bits she adjusted the orders to 20 of each drill size to save money...
As a result when drills wore out and got broken there were not the bits to use in the multi-head drills and the shop floor ended up idle and unable to complete the fabrications needed on construction sites resulting in the paying massive contract penalties that killed a successful company in less than 6 months and cost nearly 100 people their jobs...
Beancounters, lawyers, bankers and the like are the millstones of engineering that hold back progress in direct relation to their involvement in businesses they do not understand. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Without an accountant, you don't know how much money you have and you can't pay your bills.
They seem just as important as the engineer to me.
A few years ago a heavy engineering company I know was bankrupted by a beancounter (sorry accountant)!
The beancounter decided that costs had to be controlled so all purchase orders had to pass over the beancounters desk for approval. When she saw orders for 20 multiples of 6, 8, 10, 12 drill bits she adjusted the orders to 20 of each drill size to save money...
As a result when drills wore out and got broken there were not the bits to use in the multi-head drills and the shop floor ended up idle and unable to complete the fabrications needed on construction sites resulting in the paying massive contract penalties that killed a successful company in less than 6 months and cost nearly 100 people their jobs...
Beancounters, lawyers, bankers and the like are the millstones of engineering that hold back progress in direct relation to their involvement in businesses they do not understand. "
Glad someone else has had the same experience, this country employs more accountants, marketing, admin than Germany and Japan combined in their companies, look at the difference in their industries. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Just linking this to the thread on intelligence the other day.
To get into grammar school when I was that age you had to sit the 11+ exam. An exam designed to see who was intelligent enough to go to a more "prestigious school"
Student A excels at maths English and science so will get in no problem.
Student B prefers art, music and the more creative subjects but still does ok at the main three subjects so had a good enough chance of getting in.
Student C doesn't perform well on written tests but excels at subjects such as I.T, graphic design and design technology, but most likely won't pass the test.
Three clever students and equally bright in different subjects, but for it to be fair they must all take the same exam in the interest of "fairness"
There are grammar schools that focus on academia for student A.
There are arts schools/collages that focus on the arts for student B.
There are technology schools/colleges that focus on technology for student C.
Why is it ok to have schools for students B and C (I went to a school with both arts and technology school status) and yet we get all upset at the thought of an academic student having a space where they can excel?"
My point was focusing on the grammar school that I would of applied to, the only one within reasonable distance of where I lived at the time, you knew who was going to get in before the entrance tests were even taken.......hence me pointing out about kids who are stronger in other subjects.
My point was that there wasn't the option for better education unless you went to that grammar school.
Lots has changed in the 13 years since. the school curriculum is almost unrecognisable from when I was there, it's more focused about giving each kid the chance to excel at their strengths.
Something that I strongly welcome  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If there were more teachers who truly cared about giving children a good education and they were able to come up with new ways to keep children engaged right through to teenage years im sure that would make a massive difference to the education system. Children get bored, if you sit them for x amount of hours a day with a textbook to copy from most children will get bored with that pretty quickly. I had brillant teachers in the past who were like this and we all paid more attention in those lessons than the ones where we were droned on at in some boring fashion.
Peach
Rarely the teachers fault. It's usually the department if education dictating things, that keep teachers hands tied. Very few policy makers were ever teachers."
One of my favourite teachers was a maths teacher, mr fraiser, he did really simple things that im sure wasnt dictated to him to do such as, giving you multi coloured pens for your note taking (sounds stupid but does keep the attention more than a standard biro) he also brought extra equipment from home to use with us it was all really interesting. At the same school i had a math teacher called mr galloway who literally gave you a text book to answer questions from, when you finished he didnt even mark your work, you had to do it yourself because the answers were in the back of the textbook.
I dont think they would have been given such different rules on how to teach? I think they both just did it how they saw fit.
I fully understand they cannot change the whole education system however they can follow the curriculum and come up with creative ways of teaching it.
Peach |
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"Fact the grammar school system was destroyed by the Tories because suddenly the hoy poloy were getting to be PM.
Labour as well its seen as equal, better than the Tories reason, although misguided.
Personally as I started in a grammar and ended in a comp, streaming is only fair for the working class, if they're good enough why hold them back, Secondaries were not that bad, better then today's comps I guess.
I'd rather they get rid of public schools or at least strip them of their charitable status, why on earth is someone like Boris Johnson not boasting he's using the same brush after 20 years, only 10 new heads and 5 new handles, rather than being touted as a next PM, if he went to a comp he would be?
Getting rid of public schools would cause meltdown in the state sector
Parents pay an average of £14k a year to have their children educated without the need for the govt to fund the places of 100's of 1000's of children
No they don't pay anything, it deducted off their tax bill, we pay, that £14K would come back to the treasury, I said get rid of their charitable status, not close them down, if they choose to send them to public its their right but they pay. That 14K stays on their tax bill."
School fees are not tax deductible, charitable status for schools means they get certain tax benefits and do not pay tax on profits, which incidentally they are not allowed to make |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I went to a comp but it fully streamed us for all subjects from year 7 and I really think this was one of the things that helped it be (and it still is) a really successful comprehensive school despite it being in a dodgy catchment area. It's much easier for teachers to teach to a class without such a huge variation in ability, to get the best out of the low medium AND high achievers. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If there were more teachers who truly cared about giving children a good education and they were able to come up with new ways to keep children engaged right through to teenage years im sure that would make a massive difference to the education system. Children get bored, if you sit them for x amount of hours a day with a textbook to copy from most children will get bored with that pretty quickly. I had brillant teachers in the past who were like this and we all paid more attention in those lessons than the ones where we were droned on at in some boring fashion.
Peach
Rarely the teachers fault. It's usually the department if education dictating things, that keep teachers hands tied. Very few policy makers were ever teachers.
One of my favourite teachers was a maths teacher, mr fraiser, he did really simple things that im sure wasnt dictated to him to do such as, giving you multi coloured pens for your note taking (sounds stupid but does keep the attention more than a standard biro) he also brought extra equipment from home to use with us it was all really interesting. At the same school i had a math teacher called mr galloway who literally gave you a text book to answer questions from, when you finished he didnt even mark your work, you had to do it yourself because the answers were in the back of the textbook.
I dont think they would have been given such different rules on how to teach? I think they both just did it how they saw fit.
I fully understand they cannot change the whole education system however they can follow the curriculum and come up with creative ways of teaching it.
Peach"
But they have a lot less say nowadays, in how they teach. So much of the class time is dictated not by the teacher knowing what works best, but by rules laid down by the department of education. Very little wriggle room left for a teacher to be cteative. Uniformity is the watchword of the inspectors. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Fact the grammar school system was destroyed by the Tories because suddenly the hoy poloy were getting to be PM.
Labour as well its seen as equal, better than the Tories reason, although misguided.
Personally as I started in a grammar and ended in a comp, streaming is only fair for the working class, if they're good enough why hold them back, Secondaries were not that bad, better then today's comps I guess.
I'd rather they get rid of public schools or at least strip them of their charitable status, why on earth is someone like Boris Johnson not boasting he's using the same brush after 20 years, only 10 new heads and 5 new handles, rather than being touted as a next PM, if he went to a comp he would be?
Getting rid of public schools would cause meltdown in the state sector
Parents pay an average of £14k a year to have their children educated without the need for the govt to fund the places of 100's of 1000's of children
No they don't pay anything, it deducted off their tax bill, we pay, that £14K would come back to the treasury, I said get rid of their charitable status, not close them down, if they choose to send them to public its their right but they pay. That 14K stays on their tax bill.
School fees are not tax deductible, charitable status for schools means they get certain tax benefits and do not pay tax on profits, which incidentally they are not allowed to make"
they are for the richest do you homework again, the clue is able to pay in advance. |
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