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1945 The Savage Peace
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I.can't see it as I'm in the bath! Presumably it's more from the Russian front?
It is truly shocking how badly the Russians were treated in the war, and it inevitably has always coloured their view of Western Europe ever since. (Over 25 million casualties) So I guess there is an element of sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind.
Antony Beevor's book on the Fall of Berlin is very well written.
Mr ddc
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I.can't see it as I'm in the bath! Presumably it's more from the Russian front?
It is truly shocking how badly the Russians were treated in the war, and it inevitably has always coloured their view of Western Europe ever since. (Over 25 million casualties) So I guess there is an element of sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind.
Antony Beevor's book on the Fall of Berlin is very well written.
Mr ddc
"
Quite a lot is from Poland.
The numbers of rapes and hangings are shocking. I haven't read the Beevor and I wasn't aware of the scale of organised punishment for being German.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I.can't see it as I'm in the bath! Presumably it's more from the Russian front?
It is truly shocking how badly the Russians were treated in the war, and it inevitably has always coloured their view of Western Europe ever since. (Over 25 million casualties) So I guess there is an element of sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind.
Antony Beevor's book on the Fall of Berlin is very well written.
Mr ddc
"
I've read that, his book on Stalingrad is also excellent. I didn't enjoy Paris as much though.
The Russians and Poles took vicious retribution on the Germans after the war. Not surprising really when you consider what was dished out to them. |
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The eastern front had some shocking treatment on all sides. Towards the end the last German armies fought desperate battles to reach American/British lines because they knew what would happen to them if they were captured by the Russians.
When we went to St. Petersburg I went to the Battle of Leningrad Museum (mrs ddc went to see the Fabergé eggs instead) |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I.can't see it as I'm in the bath! Presumably it's more from the Russian front?
It is truly shocking how badly the Russians were treated in the war, and it inevitably has always coloured their view of Western Europe ever since. (Over 25 million casualties) So I guess there is an element of sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind.
Antony Beevor's book on the Fall of Berlin is very well written.
Mr ddc
I've read that, his book on Stalingrad is also excellent. I didn't enjoy Paris as much though.
The Russians and Poles took vicious retribution on the Germans after the war. Not surprising really when you consider what was dished out to them."
Some of the pictures and film footage is hard to watch.
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"The ugly effects of war  "
Keeping the peace must have been a tremendous feat of skill and will to stop an endless tit for tat.
Everything the Nazis doled out, forced marches, concentration camps, torture etc. was given back to ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The eastern front had some shocking treatment on all sides. Towards the end the last German armies fought desperate battles to reach American/British lines because they knew what would happen to them if they were captured by the Russians.
When we went to St. Petersburg I went to the Battle of Leningrad Museum (mrs ddc went to see the Fabergé eggs instead)"
They're still finding bodies from the battles of Leningrad and Stalingrad today.
Having a lot of family still in Poland I've travelled eastern Europe quite a lot and visited a lot of battle grounds. One that particularly hit a nerve was Wolyn, which is where my family originally comes from. It's now part of the Ukraine but was part of the disputed territory before the second world war. The few who survived were marched to Siberia and put to work in gulags. When Hitler launched Barberossa the camp guards were called to the front and abandoned the gulags leaving the prisoners to either starve to death or attempt to walk south. Somehow my grandmother, aunts and uncles managed to make it to India! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The images of starving and dead children hit hard - whatever side they are on.
"
My aunt was telling me recently about her best friend. Apparently she was crying because she couldn't find her mother so a Ukrainian solder took her to one side and slit her throat, she was 8yrs old. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"The images of starving and dead children hit hard - whatever side they are on.
My aunt was telling me recently about her best friend. Apparently she was crying because she couldn't find her mother so a Ukrainian solder took her to one side and slit her throat, she was 8yrs old."
It's so awful, especially during the "peace".
Maybe it takes this long after the events for the stories to be told.
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And the trouble is, that is why there are the problems in the Ukraine today. In effect the ones who seized power in the coup (who 'we' support) were the ones who fratenised with the Nazis during the war, and butchered the ones who are desperate for protection from Russia today. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"And the trouble is, that is why there are the problems in the Ukraine today. In effect the ones who seized power in the coup (who 'we' support) were the ones who fratenised with the Nazis during the war, and butchered the ones who are desperate for protection from Russia today. "
How many generations does it take before such things can be left behind?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And the trouble is, that is why there are the problems in the Ukraine today. In effect the ones who seized power in the coup (who 'we' support) were the ones who fratenised with the Nazis during the war, and butchered the ones who are desperate for protection from Russia today.
How many generations does it take before such things can be left behind?
"
Sadly in that part of the world it can't be. It's the mentality. I have an aunt that to this day hates the Germans, Italians, Russians and Ukrainians. She's passed that hatred on to my cousins and they have to their children. It's actually quite sad. |
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"And the trouble is, that is why there are the problems in the Ukraine today. In effect the ones who seized power in the coup (who 'we' support) were the ones who fratenised with the Nazis during the war, and butchered the ones who are desperate for protection from Russia today.
How many generations does it take before such things can be left behind?
"
While ever the pictures exist, how could one ever forgive? It all just goes so far beyond human comprehension.
Also whilever there are people willing to stoke up hatred for their own political ends (eg the far left in Greece with their anti-German sentiment)
I guess eventually the younger generations will move on.
Funnily enough I almost did a post on 'When will we ever stop mentioning the war' just the other day. We seem to go from 100 yrs since this to 75 yrs since that. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"And the trouble is, that is why there are the problems in the Ukraine today. In effect the ones who seized power in the coup (who 'we' support) were the ones who fratenised with the Nazis during the war, and butchered the ones who are desperate for protection from Russia today.
How many generations does it take before such things can be left behind?
While ever the pictures exist, how could one ever forgive? It all just goes so far beyond human comprehension.
Also whilever there are people willing to stoke up hatred for their own political ends (eg the far left in Greece with their anti-German sentiment)
I guess eventually the younger generations will move on.
Funnily enough I almost did a post on 'When will we ever stop mentioning the war' just the other day. We seem to go from 100 yrs since this to 75 yrs since that."
Maybe one day when there are no surviving people with that first hand testimony we might let it go. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"And the trouble is, that is why there are the problems in the Ukraine today. In effect the ones who seized power in the coup (who 'we' support) were the ones who fratenised with the Nazis during the war, and butchered the ones who are desperate for protection from Russia today.
How many generations does it take before such things can be left behind?
Sadly in that part of the world it can't be. It's the mentality. I have an aunt that to this day hates the Germans, Italians, Russians and Ukrainians. She's passed that hatred on to my cousins and they have to their children. It's actually quite sad."
That really is very sad.
I wonder how much resentment continues because modern Germany has become the economic success story post 1945?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And the trouble is, that is why there are the problems in the Ukraine today. In effect the ones who seized power in the coup (who 'we' support) were the ones who fratenised with the Nazis during the war, and butchered the ones who are desperate for protection from Russia today.
How many generations does it take before such things can be left behind?
Sadly in that part of the world it can't be. It's the mentality. I have an aunt that to this day hates the Germans, Italians, Russians and Ukrainians. She's passed that hatred on to my cousins and they have to their children. It's actually quite sad.
That really is very sad.
I wonder how much resentment continues because modern Germany has become the economic success story post 1945?
"
You mean the way they're now trying to control Europe financially instead of militarily?...  |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"And the trouble is, that is why there are the problems in the Ukraine today. In effect the ones who seized power in the coup (who 'we' support) were the ones who fratenised with the Nazis during the war, and butchered the ones who are desperate for protection from Russia today.
How many generations does it take before such things can be left behind?
Sadly in that part of the world it can't be. It's the mentality. I have an aunt that to this day hates the Germans, Italians, Russians and Ukrainians. She's passed that hatred on to my cousins and they have to their children. It's actually quite sad.
That really is very sad.
I wonder how much resentment continues because modern Germany has become the economic success story post 1945?
You mean the way they're now trying to control Europe financially instead of militarily?... "
Exactly.
It must be mightily annoying for some to know Germany holds the purse strings.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Interesting thread, I didn't actually catch the programme but I've read several books on and around the subject!.
Will we ever learn?
I think we better had and pretty soon or technology will give us the ability to eradicate our species very soon!.
We must give up our most deep evolved desires,a thing I realise will not be easy but this thirst for retribution and tribalism will kill us all in the end if we don't succeed |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"And the trouble is, that is why there are the problems in the Ukraine today. In effect the ones who seized power in the coup (who 'we' support) were the ones who fratenised with the Nazis during the war, and butchered the ones who are desperate for protection from Russia today.
How many generations does it take before such things can be left behind?
"
Probably never will be. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Interesting thread, I didn't actually catch the programme but I've read several books on and around the subject!.
Will we ever learn?
I think we better had and pretty soon or technology will give us the ability to eradicate our species very soon!.
We must give up our most deep evolved desires,a thing I realise will not be easy but this thirst for retribution and tribalism will kill us all in the end if we don't succeed"
Dark, deep and true. |
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"And the trouble is, that is why there are the problems in the Ukraine today. In effect the ones who seized power in the coup (who 'we' support) were the ones who fratenised with the Nazis during the war, and butchered the ones who are desperate for protection from Russia today.
How many generations does it take before such things can be left behind?
While ever the pictures exist, how could one ever forgive? It all just goes so far beyond human comprehension.
Also whilever there are people willing to stoke up hatred for their own political ends (eg the far left in Greece with their anti-German sentiment)
I guess eventually the younger generations will move on.
Funnily enough I almost did a post on 'When will we ever stop mentioning the war' just the other day. We seem to go from 100 yrs since this to 75 yrs since that.
Maybe one day when there are no surviving people with that first hand testimony we might let it go."
Lest we forget.
I'm not sure that we should ever totally let it go. Many good innocent people died at the hands of Nazis and, while that does not excuse the later ill treatment of ethnic Germans in eastern Europe, even if we forgive, we should never allow ourselves to forget. |
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