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The 'Official' Election 2015 Thread part 6
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"In reply to the last two. Firstly let's get some facts not opinions Healthcare... The UK spends around 9-10%of gdp on healthcare, that's less than The US Canada France Germany New Zealand Sweden Holland Norway Japan And many many others Health care is NOT unsustainable. Secondly I base my economic outlook on reading reports by finance, the news, economists, facts and figures, books, business reports, the FTSE, the wall St journal, Blomberg And just in case Mr hot you hadn't noticed I said it wouldn't make any difference whether labour or Tory had returned!. I always base any opinion I put out with facts about why I am of that opinion, your free to look them facts up to find out if it's true or not!." Years ago, I read a book whilst sitting on my verandah overlooking Cassiopi harbour in V Corfu. The book was about the pros and cons of living in Greece as an expat. It was written by a travel correspondent for the Telegraph. I was really surprised that the content was total bollox and bore no resemblance to how it really was. I was so surprised that I wrote to the Telegraph and pointed out a number of errors. Surprisingly I got a response stating that the content was extensively researched and produced in the best of faith but that the Daily Telegraph could not be held responsible for decisions that people made on the basis of their "Guide" That moment only reinforced my long held opinion that personal experience always trumps third party theory, particularly if the second party is merely acting as a conduit to regurgitate the third party theory. | |||
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"In reply to the last two. Firstly let's get some facts not opinions Healthcare... The UK spends around 9-10%of gdp on healthcare, that's less than The US Canada France Germany New Zealand Sweden Holland Norway Japan And many many others Health care is NOT unsustainable. Secondly I base my economic outlook on reading reports by finance, the news, economists, facts and figures, books, business reports, the FTSE, the wall St journal, Blomberg And just in case Mr hot you hadn't noticed I said it wouldn't make any difference whether labour or Tory had returned!. I always base any opinion I put out with facts about why I am of that opinion, your free to look them facts up to find out if it's true or not!. Years ago, I read a book whilst sitting on my verandah overlooking Cassiopi harbour in V Corfu. The book was about the pros and cons of living in Greece as an expat. It was written by a travel correspondent for the Telegraph. I was really surprised that the content was total bollox and bore no resemblance to how it really was. I was so surprised that I wrote to the Telegraph and pointed out a number of errors. Surprisingly I got a response stating that the content was extensively researched and produced in the best of faith but that the Daily Telegraph could not be held responsible for decisions that people made on the basis of their "Guide" That moment only reinforced my long held opinion that personal experience always trumps third party theory, particularly if the second party is merely acting as a conduit to regurgitate the third party theory." .In simple format just for you because you struggle with facts! We spend middle of the road on healthcare we get middle of the road results on healthcare that's according to oecd figures! You get what you pay for in life  | |||
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"In reply to the last two. Firstly let's get some facts not opinions Healthcare... The UK spends around 9-10%of gdp on healthcare, that's less than The US Canada France Germany New Zealand Sweden Holland Norway Japan And many many others Health care is NOT unsustainable. Secondly I base my economic outlook on reading reports by finance, the news, economists, facts and figures, books, business reports, the FTSE, the wall St journal, Blomberg And just in case Mr hot you hadn't noticed I said it wouldn't make any difference whether labour or Tory had returned!. I always base any opinion I put out with facts about why I am of that opinion, your free to look them facts up to find out if it's true or not!." If your so smart why are not running the country. Facts taken on there own about any subject are wrong because nithing is black or white. | |||
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"We are privileged to have the NHS seeing as the vast majority of the human race don't get access to a single doctor. I had to use a rural hospital in France when I broke my arm,which I didn't know about till I went to a British hospital four days after being to the French one.. I'm thankful for being born where I was..we are some f the most privileged human beings to have walked this earth."  | |||
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"Economics isn't a science. All you can do is read concrete facts, consider the experience you see around you, think about what you actually believe as an ideology and make your own mind up. A blog with pretty bad charts and graphs isn't to sway my _iew away from what is is, which is based on the approach I suggested above." A good few years ago I spent two days with a group of four economists, all with different _iews and political bias. I asked them why the economy can swing so rapidly when apparently nothing concrete had changed except opinion. All of them answered that if enough people believe the opinion that will lead to it becoming economic fact. | |||
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"Economics isn't a science. All you can do is read concrete facts, consider the experience you see around you, think about what you actually believe as an ideology and make your own mind up. A blog with pretty bad charts and graphs isn't to sway my _iew away from what is is, which is based on the approach I suggested above." That's what I mean... Each side appears to have their own set of facts and graphs, designed to emphasise their own point of _iew.. Data is seen from the prism of ones ideology...objectivity is rare...and a joe bloggs like I is left scratching his head and wondering which religion is the real one. Following the recession, I became interested in what actually happened. I started looking into the Austrian school of economics and compared it to the dominant Keynsian economic philosophy and simply got lost on the crossfire... Either people regarded as experts are lying, or are severely lacking. Alas I'm not smart enough yet to be able to confidently distinguish between the two... | |||
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"Economics isn't a science. All you can do is read concrete facts, consider the experience you see around you, think about what you actually believe as an ideology and make your own mind up. A blog with pretty bad charts and graphs isn't to sway my _iew away from what is is, which is based on the approach I suggested above. That's what I mean... Each side appears to have their own set of facts and graphs, designed to emphasise their own point of _iew.. Data is seen from the prism of ones ideology...objectivity is rare...and a joe bloggs like I is left scratching his head and wondering which religion is the real one. Following the recession, I became interested in what actually happened. I started looking into the Austrian school of economics and compared it to the dominant Keynsian economic philosophy and simply got lost on the crossfire... Either people regarded as experts are lying, or are severely lacking. Alas I'm not smart enough yet to be able to confidently distinguish between the two... " The problem is the variants are always moving. We have a dynamic economic process interacting with other dynamic systems, locally, regionally, nationally, globally. A butterfly flaps its wings in China and the price of timber goes up in Brazil... | |||
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"Ok so a friend of mine won't tell me who she voted. Is it really personal? ... "For some people it can be | |||
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"Only when PR plays into the hands of the tories." Oh well, then that will never happen. | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? " I tried to raise AV and PR on one of the other threads. We're not ready yet. | |||
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"Economics isn't a science. All you can do is read concrete facts, consider the experience you see around you, think about what you actually believe as an ideology and make your own mind up. A blog with pretty bad charts and graphs isn't to sway my _iew away from what is is, which is based on the approach I suggested above. That's what I mean... Each side appears to have their own set of facts and graphs, designed to emphasise their own point of _iew.. Data is seen from the prism of ones ideology...objectivity is rare...and a joe bloggs like I is left scratching his head and wondering which religion is the real one. Following the recession, I became interested in what actually happened. I started looking into the Austrian school of economics and compared it to the dominant Keynsian economic philosophy and simply got lost on the crossfire... Either people regarded as experts are lying, or are severely lacking. Alas I'm not smart enough yet to be able to confidently distinguish between the two... The problem is the variants are always moving. We have a dynamic economic process interacting with other dynamic systems, locally, regionally, nationally, globally. A butterfly flaps its wings in China and the price of timber goes up in Brazil... " Someone will take the credit, others will be blamed...and I'll be none the wiser...try as I may! | |||
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"Economics isn't a science. All you can do is read concrete facts, consider the experience you see around you, think about what you actually believe as an ideology and make your own mind up. A blog with pretty bad charts and graphs isn't to sway my _iew away from what is is, which is based on the approach I suggested above. That's what I mean... Each side appears to have their own set of facts and graphs, designed to emphasise their own point of _iew.. Data is seen from the prism of ones ideology...objectivity is rare...and a joe bloggs like I is left scratching his head and wondering which religion is the real one. Following the recession, I became interested in what actually happened. I started looking into the Austrian school of economics and compared it to the dominant Keynsian economic philosophy and simply got lost on the crossfire... Either people regarded as experts are lying, or are severely lacking. Alas I'm not smart enough yet to be able to confidently distinguish between the two... " I think the thing is there is no 'real' one, or no 'truth'. But most people can point to whether they are more of a natural conservative (small c), liberal or socialist, based on the basic fundamental principles of what those political movements tend to mean, and that's how I make my mind up. Economics and statistics can be manipulated. | |||
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"Don't the british public never learn from the past mistake by voting for him? You can now say goodbye to nhs lol. Wont be long now as times get tougher with all the cuts, we will no doubt see civil war on the streets. Give it few years." . We how have 9500 more Doctors , 7100 more nurses , and. 2100 more midwives than when the Coalition came to power. NHS productivity has increased by an average of 1.6 % each year and the number of managers by 7000. Hospital infections have halved since 2010. Public satisfaction with the NHS is at its second highest ever level according to the British Social Attitudes survey . | |||
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"Don't the british public never learn from the past mistake by voting for him? You can now say goodbye to nhs lol. Wont be long now as times get tougher with all the cuts, we will no doubt see civil war on the streets. Give it few years.. We how have 9500 more Doctors , 7100 more nurses , and. 2100 more midwives than when the Coalition came to power. NHS productivity has increased by an average of 1.6 % each year and the number of managers by 7000. Hospital infections have halved since 2010. Public satisfaction with the NHS is at its second highest ever level according to the British Social Attitudes survey ." . Post should read 7000 less managers | |||
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" I think the thing is there is no 'real' one, or no 'truth'. But most people can point to whether they are more of a natural conservative (small c), liberal or socialist, based on the basic fundamental principles of what those political movements tend to mean, and that's how I make my mind up. Economics and statistics can be manipulated." And my own _iew can be tainted - which is frustrating. What's more frustrating is that politicians make little effort to engage in deep, thorough debate. If there was genuine concern about the state of the economy, they'd work together to unpick what went wrong, and at least debate what could be done going forward...with evidence based rationale that was open to public scrutiny. A set of bullet point sound bites just doesn't cut it for me. | |||
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" The problem is the variants are always moving. We have a dynamic economic process interacting with other dynamic systems, locally, regionally, nationally, globally. A butterfly flaps its wings in China and the price of timber goes up in Brazil... " Political commentators can't agree on causes and consequences of neither policies nor previous recessions that occurred decades ago...so I suppose I'm expecting to much... | |||
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"Ok so a friend of mine won't tell me who she voted. Is it really personal? ... "Yep it can be, my dad has never disclosed who he's voted for ~ I do have a sneaking suspicion tho | |||
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"Economics isn't a science. All you can do is read concrete facts, consider the experience you see around you, think about what you actually believe as an ideology and make your own mind up. A blog with pretty bad charts and graphs isn't to sway my _iew away from what is is, which is based on the approach I suggested above. That's what I mean... Each side appears to have their own set of facts and graphs, designed to emphasise their own point of _iew.. Data is seen from the prism of ones ideology...objectivity is rare...and a joe bloggs like I is left scratching his head and wondering which religion is the real one. Following the recession, I became interested in what actually happened. I started looking into the Austrian school of economics and compared it to the dominant Keynsian economic philosophy and simply got lost on the crossfire... Either people regarded as experts are lying, or are severely lacking. Alas I'm not smart enough yet to be able to confidently distinguish between the two... " I would say that Milton Friedman and monetarism is just as dominant as Keynesianism. Austrian Economics is similar to monetarism. What happened? Well in capitalism you have winners and losers. People compete and some win and some lose. Those who lose want to play the game again because they want to win next time. Those who win also want to play the game again because they want more. Capitalism is basically people playing many competitive games. Those who win a lot become wealthy and those who lose a lot are poor. In capitalism there are winners but controversially there must be losers. Capitalism cannot work without losers. Some capitalist Banks went bust big time. However, instead of letting them fail, the Government bailed them out. This means that all the big losses they made became socialised - we own the losses now. Britain cannot afford to pay the losses of the Banks so we had to borrow and borrow and print lots of money. All this money we borrowed has to be paid back plus the interest. Some people say that bailing out the banks was the best thing because we would have had a depression if we had allowed the banks to collapse. Others say the best thing to do is to allow the market to work: allow the banks to fail and just get on with it. Austrian Economics promotes government staying out of the market and allowing people/companies to play the game and either win or fail. keynesianism promotes government spending on government projects rather than bank bailouts. Bank bailouts does not have anything to do with this side of economics. Gordon Brown just got scared and bailed out the banks because he thought people would blame him and the labour party would become unelectable. | |||
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"There's hope. Labour made most of their good gains in London. Conservatives have the crown but the jewel might be a ruby instead of a sapphire. "Made most of their gains in London but they lost Scotland. That's like finding a penny and losing a tenner. | |||
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"There's hope. Labour made most of their good gains in London. Conservatives have the crown but the jewel might be a ruby instead of a sapphire.
Made most of their gains in London but they lost Scotland.
That's like finding a penny and losing a tenner."Everyone lost Scotland!
One of the main reasons for that is the loss of the independence vote. But Scotland are united under the SNP.
As for London, it's a year till the next London mayor vote. It would piss Cameron off to have to deal with a Labour mayor, don't you think? | |||
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"There's hope. Labour made most of their good gains in London. Conservatives have the crown but the jewel might be a ruby instead of a sapphire.
Made most of their gains in London but they lost Scotland.
That's like finding a penny and losing a tenner.
Everyone lost Scotland!
One of the main reasons for that is the loss of the independence vote. But Scotland are united under the SNP.
As for London, it's a year till the next London mayor vote. It would piss Cameron off to have to deal with a Labour mayor, don't you think?"The Scottish lost Scotland - united under the SNP has actually made them worse off. They are now represented by a political party with absolutely zero power and influence in the Commons. At least when they had majority Labour representation (and Labour have actually been in government). The SNP played right into the Conservative plans - all they have accomplished is to weaken Labour and send themselves to the wastelands for 4 years. Sturgeon & Salmon believe believe wield the Scottish equivalent of Excalibur, but in 12 months time they'll come to realise all they have is the moist end of a shitty stick. | |||
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"The border changes where recommended by an independent commission due to population movement etc. It was stopped by Lib Dems as it was feared it would favour tories. The constituency borders are meant to be examined every 10 years because of population changes etc." That is pretty much correct, but it isn't so much that the new boundary's will favour the Tory's as that the old (current) boundary's do actually give Labour a distinct advantage. The main recommendation of the last boundary commission (2011) re_iew was to reduce the number of seats at Westminster from 650 to 600. The Lib Dems promised to support it but (as usual) cocked on the deal and the report was finally ditched in 2013. The next scheduled boundary commission report is due early next year. It will be interesting how the new government acts on whatever it recommends. | |||
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"There's hope. Labour made most of their good gains in London. Conservatives have the crown but the jewel might be a ruby instead of a sapphire.
Made most of their gains in London but they lost Scotland.
That's like finding a penny and losing a tenner.
Everyone lost Scotland!
One of the main reasons for that is the loss of the independence vote. But Scotland are united under the SNP.
As for London, it's a year till the next London mayor vote. It would piss Cameron off to have to deal with a Labour mayor, don't you think?"No not really. With Milliband gone Labour will become more "Blairite" during this parliament and I think candidate selection for London Mayor will reflect this. So London will either get another Tory or a centre left Labour mayor. Cameron will be able to work with either. | |||
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"There's hope. Labour made most of their good gains in London. Conservatives have the crown but the jewel might be a ruby instead of a sapphire.
Made most of their gains in London but they lost Scotland.
That's like finding a penny and losing a tenner.
Everyone lost Scotland!
One of the main reasons for that is the loss of the independence vote. But Scotland are united under the SNP.
As for London, it's a year till the next London mayor vote. It would piss Cameron off to have to deal with a Labour mayor, don't you think?
The Scottish lost Scotland - united under the SNP has actually made them worse off.
They are now represented by a political party with absolutely zero power and influence in the Commons. At least when they had majority Labour representation (and Labour have actually been in government). The SNP played right into the Conservative plans - all they have accomplished is to weaken Labour and send themselves to the wastelands for 4 years.
Sturgeon & Salmon believe believe wield the Scottish equivalent of Excalibur, but in 12 months time they'll come to realise all they have is the moist end of a shitty stick. "Yes, a pretty accurate summary. I think Salmond (and it is Salmond not Sturgeon at Westminster) will be a bit out on a limb. The Tory's now having an overall majority will regard him as an irrelevance, and there will be so much bitterness from the Labour benches that I think they will try to screw him at every opportunity. | |||
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"Ok so a friend of mine won't tell me who she voted. Is it really personal? ...
Yep it can be, my dad has never disclosed who he's voted for ~ I do have a sneaking suspicion tho "The males in my family have never shared. I knew who my Mum voted for. I noticed on polling day that the majority were elderly where I go to vote. I wonder if the younger voters prefer postal voting ? My friend did vote for the first time ever, at the age of 41 after my nagging ! | |||
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"There's hope. Labour made most of their good gains in London. Conservatives have the crown but the jewel might be a ruby instead of a sapphire.
Made most of their gains in London but they lost Scotland.
That's like finding a penny and losing a tenner.
Everyone lost Scotland!
One of the main reasons for that is the loss of the independence vote. But Scotland are united under the SNP.
As for London, it's a year till the next London mayor vote. It would piss Cameron off to have to deal with a Labour mayor, don't you think?
The Scottish lost Scotland - united under the SNP has actually made them worse off.
They are now represented by a political party with absolutely zero power and influence in the Commons. At least when they had majority Labour representation (and Labour have actually been in government). The SNP played right into the Conservative plans - all they have accomplished is to weaken Labour and send themselves to the wastelands for 4 years.
Sturgeon & Salmon believe believe wield the Scottish equivalent of Excalibur, but in 12 months time they'll come to realise all they have is the moist end of a shitty stick. "Good call. I wonder too if Cameron decides to acknowledge the Scottish vote and in return give Scotland full fiscal responsibility. That would really put the SNP in a pickle as their economic policies could then no longer be blamed on the people south of the border and they would only have themselves to answer to. | |||
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"In reply to the last two. Firstly let's get some facts not opinions Healthcare... The UK spends around 9-10%of gdp on healthcare, that's less than The US Canada France Germany New Zealand Sweden Holland Norway Japan And many many others Health care is NOT unsustainable. Secondly I base my economic outlook on reading reports by finance, the news, economists, facts and figures, books, business reports, the FTSE, the wall St journal, Blomberg And just in case Mr hot you hadn't noticed I said it wouldn't make any difference whether labour or Tory had returned!. I always base any opinion I put out with facts about why I am of that opinion, your free to look them facts up to find out if it's true or not!.If your so smart why are not running the country. Facts taken on there own about any subject are wrong because nithing is black or white." . I don't see any bit of what I wrote, where I claimed I was smart or wish to run the country. What I was pointing out is people who just constantly claim this or that without any evidence to back it up! People keep saying the nhs is unsustainable but as I point out we spend far less on healthcare than dozens of other first world countries, yes healthcare is expensive, it's time consuming, uses lots of technologically advanced techniques and has large infrastructure but we spend 10% of gdp on it America spends 18% of gdp and it's privatised!. France spends more, Germany spends more Sweden. We spend middle of the road in comparison to other countries and unsurprisingly we get middle of the road results! Big shock  but not one but of those figures show it's unsustainable.
Now I know plenty of things that are unsustainable like our monetary policy, debt banking leverages, energy policy, housing policy, consumerism and our c02 emissions.... Etc etc but nobody seems to want to tackle those problems which really are unsustainable.
To base ones logic and ideology on personal observations is a flawed human instinct,I look around my house and the world seems pretty flat but thanks to people who ignored personal observation ideology I know it's round
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"There's hope. Labour made most of their good gains in London. Conservatives have the crown but the jewel might be a ruby instead of a sapphire.
Made most of their gains in London but they lost Scotland.
That's like finding a penny and losing a tenner.
Everyone lost Scotland!
One of the main reasons for that is the loss of the independence vote. But Scotland are united under the SNP.
As for London, it's a year till the next London mayor vote. It would piss Cameron off to have to deal with a Labour mayor, don't you think?
The Scottish lost Scotland - united under the SNP has actually made them worse off.
They are now represented by a political party with absolutely zero power and influence in the Commons. At least when they had majority Labour representation (and Labour have actually been in government). The SNP played right into the Conservative plans - all they have accomplished is to weaken Labour and send themselves to the wastelands for 4 years.
Sturgeon & Salmon believe believe wield the Scottish equivalent of Excalibur, but in 12 months time they'll come to realise all they have is the moist end of a shitty stick. "I know the Scottish voting public are sooo stupid eh?!  | |||
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" I know the Scottish voting public are sooo stupid eh?! "No, they are not stupid. I never said they were stupid. They were conned into believing that the SNP could wield power in Westminster (a political area that ultimately they don't actually want to be a part of). All the talk of Kingmakers gave hope that the SNP could devolve Scotland slowly via the back door - the devolution vote was so close that this was almost inevitable. They were sold on an idea that the SNP could never achieve. | |||
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" I know the Scottish voting public are sooo stupid eh?!
No, they are not stupid. I never said they were stupid.
They were conned into believing that the SNP could wield power in Westminster (a political area that ultimately they don't actually want to be a part of).
All the talk of Kingmakers gave hope that the SNP could devolve Scotland slowly via the back door - the devolution vote was so close that this was almost inevitable.
They were sold on an idea that the SNP could never achieve."You are wrong. People chose to vote SNP up here because the alternatives are dire. Wasn't just a few romantic idealists. The whole country united and the sanctimonious patronising people who spend their lives on this forum believing everything they say is true, really should get off here once in a while. I'd then be more inclined to take on board some of their ridiculous ramblings. | |||
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"In reply to the last two. Firstly let's get some facts not opinions Healthcare... The UK spends around 9-10%of gdp on healthcare, that's less than The US Canada France Germany New Zealand Sweden Holland Norway Japan And many many others Health care is NOT unsustainable. Secondly I base my economic outlook on reading reports by finance, the news, economists, facts and figures, books, business reports, the FTSE, the wall St journal, Blomberg And just in case Mr hot you hadn't noticed I said it wouldn't make any difference whether labour or Tory had returned!. I always base any opinion I put out with facts about why I am of that opinion, your free to look them facts up to find out if it's true or not!.If your so smart why are not running the country. Facts taken on there own about any subject are wrong because nithing is black or white.. I don't see any bit of what I wrote, where I claimed I was smart or wish to run the country. What I was pointing out is people who just constantly claim this or that without any evidence to back it up! People keep saying the nhs is unsustainable but as I point out we spend far less on healthcare than dozens of other first world countries, yes healthcare is expensive, it's time consuming, uses lots of technologically advanced techniques and has large infrastructure but we spend 10% of gdp on it America spends 18% of gdp and it's privatised!. France spends more, Germany spends more Sweden. We spend middle of the road in comparison to other countries and unsurprisingly we get middle of the road results! Big shock but not one but of those figures show it's unsustainable.
Now I know plenty of things that are unsustainable like our monetary policy, debt banking leverages, energy policy, housing policy, consumerism and our c02 emissions.... Etc etc but nobody seems to want to tackle those problems which really are unsustainable.
To base ones logic and ideology on personal observations is a flawed human instinct,I look around my house and the world seems pretty flat but thanks to people who ignored personal observation ideology I know it's round
"You have a habit of extracting only facts that suit your position. There is no comparison between the NHS and the healthcare systems in the other countries that you mention And so comparing funding as a stand alone feature is irrelevant. It is like saying that there is no obesity in Central Africa so we should be like them to avoid our obesity crisis. The NHS is unsustainable because of a number of issues of which funding is just one. The problem is that there is a fear of even talking about change and that should not be the case. Personal responsibility has to come in to the frame as does the funding of more proactive healthcare measures in order to prevent people having the need to use primary healthcare in the first place. Talking about changing the way that the NHS is structured and funded should not be as toxic as it seemingly is. | |||
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"..and just to add - I think in no small part a lot of this was down to the polls which were conducted in the run up to the election; re-enforcing the idea of a hung parliament and the SNP with a shot at the 'brass ring'. I will be watching closely the enquiry into how they managed to get it so wrong. " Hahaha people up here are glad they voted for a party unanimously almost. How patronising are you?! | |||
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" I know the Scottish voting public are sooo stupid eh?!
No, they are not stupid. I never said they were stupid.
They were conned into believing that the SNP could wield power in Westminster (a political area that ultimately they don't actually want to be a part of).
All the talk of Kingmakers gave hope that the SNP could devolve Scotland slowly via the back door - the devolution vote was so close that this was almost inevitable.
They were sold on an idea that the SNP could never achieve.
You are wrong. People chose to vote SNP up here because the alternatives are dire. Wasn't just a few romantic idealists. The whole country united and the sanctimonious patronising people who spend their lives on this forum believing everything they say is true, really should get off here once in a while. I'd then be more inclined to take on board some of their ridiculous ramblings."I think Scotland will get virtually full fiscal responsibility pretty soon and certainly within this Parliament. Assuming an EU no vote, Scotland will remain part of the UK but with full tax and spend responsibility. This will mean no more blame game for the SNP and instead of playing the victim role, the SNP will actually have to make real decisions and be accountable for them. No more hating Tories because of Mrs Thatcher, no more hating Labour because of the referendum vote, no more blaming anyone else for anything. | |||
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"..and just to add - I think in no small part a lot of this was down to the polls which were conducted in the run up to the election; re-enforcing the idea of a hung parliament and the SNP with a shot at the 'brass ring'. I will be watching closely the enquiry into how they managed to get it so wrong. Hahaha people up here are glad they voted for a party unanimously almost. How patronising are you?! " People round these parts voted almost unanimously for Labour but we get a Conservative government. Democracy sucks when it doesn't go your way. | |||
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"..and just to add - I think in no small part a lot of this was down to the polls which were conducted in the run up to the election; re-enforcing the idea of a hung parliament and the SNP with a shot at the 'brass ring'. I will be watching closely the enquiry into how they managed to get it so wrong. Hahaha people up here are glad they voted for a party unanimously almost. How patronising are you?! People round these parts voted almost unanimously for Labour but we get a Conservative government. Democracy sucks when it doesn't go your way." Lol happy I live up here. | |||
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" I know the Scottish voting public are sooo stupid eh?!
No, they are not stupid. I never said they were stupid.
They were conned into believing that the SNP could wield power in Westminster (a political area that ultimately they don't actually want to be a part of).
All the talk of Kingmakers gave hope that the SNP could devolve Scotland slowly via the back door - the devolution vote was so close that this was almost inevitable.
They were sold on an idea that the SNP could never achieve.
You are wrong. People chose to vote SNP up here because the alternatives are dire. Wasn't just a few romantic idealists. The whole country united and the sanctimonious patronising people who spend their lives on this forum believing everything they say is true, really should get off here once in a while. I'd then be more inclined to take on board some of their ridiculous ramblings.
I think Scotland will get virtually full fiscal responsibility pretty soon and certainly within this Parliament. Assuming an EU no vote, Scotland will remain part of the UK but with full tax and spend responsibility.
This will mean no more blame game for the SNP and instead of playing the victim role, the SNP will actually have to make real decisions and be accountable for them. No more hating Tories because of Mrs Thatcher, no more hating Labour because of the referendum vote, no more blaming anyone else for anything. "Yeah cause any politicians of any persuasion blaming others for anything is unheard of isn't it | |||
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" This will mean no more blame game for the SNP and instead of playing the victim role, the SNP will actually have to make real decisions and be accountable for them. No more hating Tories because of Mrs Thatcher, no more hating Labour because of the referendum vote, no more blaming anyone else for anything. " Sadly, experience of local government accountability doesn't bear this out. Scotland will still get some additional money from the rest of the UK, just as all rural areas, ex-heavy industrial areas and deprived inner cities do wherever in the UK they may be. So Holyrood will just complain they're not given sufficient funds applicable to their 'special case' just like all English local authorities do. (And you can't blame them for it - all political parties do it) Mr ddc | |||
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"In reply to the last two. Firstly let's get some facts not opinions Healthcare... The UK spends around 9-10%of gdp on healthcare, that's less than The US Canada France Germany New Zealand Sweden Holland Norway Japan And many many others Health care is NOT unsustainable. Secondly I base my economic outlook on reading reports by finance, the news, economists, facts and figures, books, business reports, the FTSE, the wall St journal, Blomberg And just in case Mr hot you hadn't noticed I said it wouldn't make any difference whether labour or Tory had returned!. I always base any opinion I put out with facts about why I am of that opinion, your free to look them facts up to find out if it's true or not!.If your so smart why are not running the country. Facts taken on there own about any subject are wrong because nithing is black or white.. I don't see any bit of what I wrote, where I claimed I was smart or wish to run the country. What I was pointing out is people who just constantly claim this or that without any evidence to back it up! People keep saying the nhs is unsustainable but as I point out we spend far less on healthcare than dozens of other first world countries, yes healthcare is expensive, it's time consuming, uses lots of technologically advanced techniques and has large infrastructure but we spend 10% of gdp on it America spends 18% of gdp and it's privatised!. France spends more, Germany spends more Sweden. We spend middle of the road in comparison to other countries and unsurprisingly we get middle of the road results! Big shock but not one but of those figures show it's unsustainable.
Now I know plenty of things that are unsustainable like our monetary policy, debt banking leverages, energy policy, housing policy, consumerism and our c02 emissions.... Etc etc but nobody seems to want to tackle those problems which really are unsustainable.
To base ones logic and ideology on personal observations is a flawed human instinct,I look around my house and the world seems pretty flat but thanks to people who ignored personal observation ideology I know it's round
You have a habit of extracting only facts that suit your position. There is no comparison between the NHS and the healthcare systems in the other countries that you mention And so comparing funding as a stand alone feature is irrelevant. It is like saying that there is no obesity in Central Africa so we should be like them to avoid our obesity crisis.
The NHS is unsustainable because of a number of issues of which funding is just one. The problem is that there is a fear of even talking about change and that should not be the case. Personal responsibility has to come in to the frame as does the funding of more proactive healthcare measures in order to prevent people having the need to use primary healthcare in the first place. Talking about changing the way that the NHS is structured and funded should not be as toxic as it seemingly is.". Healthcare is healthcare,I compared our spending on it to other first world countries, you say this is disingenuous and I select facts, you then bring in central Africa which is nothing like comparison
You still haven't said why it's unsustainable, you just quote your own personal beliefs.
I hate to point this out to you but speak to anyone who works in the NHS, they constantly change things, in fact one could argue the reason why the nhs or schools or local government has failures is constant change and interference by meddling politicians who usually are inept tory/labour halfwits who know shit about anything | |||
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" This will mean no more blame game for the SNP and instead of playing the victim role, the SNP will actually have to make real decisions and be accountable for them. No more hating Tories because of Mrs Thatcher, no more hating Labour because of the referendum vote, no more blaming anyone else for anything. Sadly, experience of local government accountability doesn't bear this out. Scotland will still get some additional money from the rest of the UK, just as all rural areas, ex-heavy industrial areas and deprived inner cities do wherever in the UK they may be. So Holyrood will just complain they're not given sufficient funds applicable to their 'special case' just like all English local authorities do. (And you can't blame them for it - all political parties do it) Mr ddc" . Good point Mr DDC I find the whole Scottish bashing thing to be quite strange Northern Ireland gets more under the Barnett formula then Scotland Welsh spending is just under, yet nobody complains about Ireland or Wales, it seems to me it's about control and not money as the other two are happy to keep under the thumb! The Scottish referendum for independence seemed to me like a bitter divorce of hatred over who got what. | |||
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" This will mean no more blame game for the SNP and instead of playing the victim role, the SNP will actually have to make real decisions and be accountable for them. No more hating Tories because of Mrs Thatcher, no more hating Labour because of the referendum vote, no more blaming anyone else for anything. Sadly, experience of local government accountability doesn't bear this out. Scotland will still get some additional money from the rest of the UK, just as all rural areas, ex-heavy industrial areas and deprived inner cities do wherever in the UK they may be. So Holyrood will just complain they're not given sufficient funds applicable to their 'special case' just like all English local authorities do. (And you can't blame them for it - all political parties do it) Mr ddc. Good point Mr DDC I find the whole Scottish bashing thing to be quite strange Northern Ireland gets more under the Barnett formula then Scotland Welsh spending is just under, yet nobody complains about Ireland or Wales, it seems to me it's about control and not money as the other two are happy to keep under the thumb! The Scottish referendum for independence seemed to me like a bitter divorce of hatred over who got what." Neither the Northern Irish, nor the Welsh are in the habit of always bleating about how unfair life is because of the English. Neither do they hold lifelong grudges that they pass on to their children. You are unlikely to hear a Welsh teenager rejoicing at the passing of Mrs Thatcher. The Scots, for their own good, need full fiscal responsibility. | |||
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"The first change is to ring fence the NHS and make it accountable for its own funding as well as performance. This may involve a change in the way that we are taxed so that (as an example) fixed funding comes from a portion of income tax and vat and the independent NHS has the right and the responsibility to charge for certain aspects of the healthcare provision. Secondly, the Newly independent NHS has to have the funding and responsibility to undertake proactive pre-healthcare campaigns that will work to educate people about alcohol, tobacco and obesity and thus reduce the later burden. This may involve the threat of treatment charges for lifestyle induced healthcare support." . It already did pro active healthcare, did you miss all the anti smoking adverts or the watch your salt intake ones? As for charging people for their actions! Do you mean sports people for injuries, joggers for knee surgery, skier's, cyclists, gym goers, swinger's for their gum checks! And what about those damn kids constantly running about and breaking bones... They defo need charging... What do you mean they don't work, surely they can squeeze in three paper rounds and a mill job in between homework! Honestly arguing with you is like arguing with a Victorian mill owner!!! Top tip the world moved on socially, catch up | |||
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" This will mean no more blame game for the SNP and instead of playing the victim role, the SNP will actually have to make real decisions and be accountable for them. No more hating Tories because of Mrs Thatcher, no more hating Labour because of the referendum vote, no more blaming anyone else for anything. Sadly, experience of local government accountability doesn't bear this out. Scotland will still get some additional money from the rest of the UK, just as all rural areas, ex-heavy industrial areas and deprived inner cities do wherever in the UK they may be. So Holyrood will just complain they're not given sufficient funds applicable to their 'special case' just like all English local authorities do. (And you can't blame them for it - all political parties do it) Mr ddc. Good point Mr DDC I find the whole Scottish bashing thing to be quite strange Northern Ireland gets more under the Barnett formula then Scotland Welsh spending is just under, yet nobody complains about Ireland or Wales, it seems to me it's about control and not money as the other two are happy to keep under the thumb! The Scottish referendum for independence seemed to me like a bitter divorce of hatred over who got what. Neither the Northern Irish, nor the Welsh are in the habit of always bleating about how unfair life is because of the English. Neither do they hold lifelong grudges that they pass on to their children. You are unlikely to hear a Welsh teenager rejoicing at the passing of Mrs Thatcher. The Scots, for their own good, need full fiscal responsibility." . Lol lol.... Please go to a welsh pit town you might be surprised | |||
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"Labour Leadership race Good words from Tristram Hunt and Simon Dunszak on the news this morning." Labour need a strong down to earth leader who can appeal to the broader electorate. I think there enough pitfalls for the Tories to overcome in the next 5 years to suggest that a strong Labour with a proper broad appeal might do quite well. The EU referendum will see the Tories drag up old divisions, the leadership question will also cause trouble. There may well be disillusionment if the economic plan is not seen to be working, and if the SNP is seen as impotent there is reason to believe that Labour might win back some seats. The key is getting a leader that is not seen as a union patsy, is not seen as a career politician who is out of touch, and someone with a vision. I think we are in for an interesting few years  | |||
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" Hahaha people up here are glad they voted for a party unanimously almost. How patronising are you?! " Not patronising at all actually. But feel free to believe otherwise. | |||
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"Don't the british public never learn from the past mistake by voting for him? You can now say goodbye to nhs lol. Wont be long now as times get tougher with all the cuts, we will no doubt see civil war on the streets. Give it few years.. We how have 9500 more Doctors , 7100 more nurses , and. 2100 more midwives than when the Coalition came to power. NHS productivity has increased by an average of 1.6 % each year and the number of managers by 7000. Hospital infections have halved since 2010. Public satisfaction with the NHS is at its second highest ever level according to the British Social Attitudes survey ." Where did you get your figures from please? | |||
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"We how have 9500 more Doctors , 7100 more nurses , and. 2100 more midwives than when the Coalition came to power. " Statisticians rule... Number of medical students entering training has been cut by 710 places in the last 5 years,it takes 6 years to train a doctor, and the number of required doctors is = number of doctors leaving + - total number of doctors changed by NHS Training time = 6 years so the 710 fewer doctors will occur in 2021 Government time = 5 years so the government in charge when we have sufficient / too many / few doctors will be post the next election. Newspaper time = 24 hours so whoever it is will be blamed / praised on the day. Prosperity is a permanent rolling process governments are not. | |||
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"The first change is to ring fence the NHS and make it accountable for its own funding as well as performance. This may involve a change in the way that we are taxed so that (as an example) fixed funding comes from a portion of income tax and vat and the independent NHS has the right and the responsibility to charge for certain aspects of the healthcare provision. Secondly, the Newly independent NHS has to have the funding and responsibility to undertake proactive pre-healthcare campaigns that will work to educate people about alcohol, tobacco and obesity and thus reduce the later burden. This may involve the threat of treatment charges for lifestyle induced healthcare support.. It already did pro active healthcare, did you miss all the anti smoking adverts or the watch your salt intake ones? As for charging people for their actions! Do you mean sports people for injuries, joggers for knee surgery, skier's, cyclists, gym goers, swinger's for their gum checks! And what about those damn kids constantly running about and breaking bones... They defo need charging... What do you mean they don't work, surely they can squeeze in three paper rounds and a mill job in between homework! Honestly arguing with you is like arguing with a Victorian mill owner!!! Top tip the world moved on socially, catch up" Try thinking outside the box for once. It is far better than having your opinions spoon fed to you. | |||
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"We how have 9500 more Doctors , 7100 more nurses , and. 2100 more midwives than when the Coalition came to power. Statisticians rule... Number of medical students entering training has been cut by 710 places in the last 5 years,it takes 6 years to train a doctor, and the number of required doctors is = number of doctors leaving + - total number of doctors changed by NHS Training time = 6 years so the 710 fewer doctors will occur in 2021 Government time = 5 years so the government in charge when we have sufficient / too many / few doctors will be post the next election. Newspaper time = 24 hours so whoever it is will be blamed / praised on the day. Prosperity is a permanent rolling process governments are not. " Statistics slightly skewed by the fact we get a lot of doctors in from abroad..... Not saying it's right or wrong, but just that it's not totally straightforward. | |||
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"Everyone tends to forget that Wales is the place most fucked over by the Barnett formula at the moment. I also wonder how much influence those 50+ SNP MPs can wield from the opposition benches. About as much influence the 200+ Labour MPs wielded during the last Parliament, presumably. Perhaps the SNP may take up some of the devolved powers they ALREADY HAVE and start using them, pending fuller devolution which will happen but could turn out to be a poisoned chalice for them. No one else to blame. Although the same applies to potential devolution settlements for the big northern regions too, it would finally be time to stop blaming all their woes on Thatcher." Agreed 100% | |||
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"You can't live in the past, if coal was profitable the pits wouldn't have closed. I wonder if English farm workers rejoiced when the inventer of the combined harvesting machine died? Or did they just go and find other jobs by a method of TRAVELLING to where the work is rather than STAYING where the work WAS and waiting to be spoon fed a living...." This is a good attitude.
There is no god given right for someone to give you a good job on your door step. | |||
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"Statistics slightly skewed by the fact we get a lot of doctors in from abroad..... Not saying it's right or wrong, but just that it's not totally straightforward. " No problem with using global resource to smooth out the discrepancies that may occur, it makes sense not to train more than projected need. As you say not commenting on right or wrong of immigration. Statistics can be manipulated to sell any agenda, and the media is very short term. as long as we change sides every 10 - 15 years then no government can do too much harm, and I suppose we do need the illusion of democracy | |||
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"Half the people I know who voted SNP are too young to remember Thatcher. They just believe in change and progression. Rather than hackneyed arguments about how we should be grateful to England for handouts. All the experts on here, apart from one, don't actually live up here, people knew there was a chance we'd still get a Tory government but decided to vote regardless. Really don't get some people. Well yes I do really think they're experts on everything when in reality they know jack." Don't worry about it everyone was a boxing expert last week, something new will be along soon enough | |||
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"I'd support the lifestyle induced charges people need to take responsibility for their actions. I wouldn't be against charges for turning up at A&E with a grazed knee or a slight cough....because it certainly happens. nothing extortion but people abuse the A&E department " . Excellent point. We should also consider charging for Doctors appointments . | |||
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"I live in Scotland and didn't vote for independence or the SNP. It seems so unfair that Scotland with a population of 5.9 million has 59 seats in Westminster, 56 of them now held by SNP. I'm not a fan of UKIP but they did get 3.9 million votes and only 1 seat in Westminster. Hardly representational of the voting electorate. I fear Nicola Sturgeon will bring Scotland to its knees financially when we have fiscal autonomy. We will probably end up paying more in taxes than those South of the border!" . Nice post . Sometimes the truth hurts . The SNP could be a financial disaster for Scotland | |||
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"I'd support the lifestyle induced charges people need to take responsibility for their actions. I wouldn't be against charges for turning up at A&E with a grazed knee or a slight cough....because it certainly happens. nothing extortion but people abuse the A&E department . Excellent point. We should also consider charging for Doctors appointments . " I'm sure Dave will roll that one out soon enough | |||
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"Everyone tends to forget that Wales is the place most fucked over by the Barnett formula at the moment. I also wonder how much influence those 50+ SNP MPs can wield from the opposition benches. About as much influence the 200+ Labour MPs wielded during the last Parliament, presumably. Perhaps the SNP may take up some of the devolved powers they ALREADY HAVE and start using them, pending fuller devolution which will happen but could turn out to be a poisoned chalice for them. No one else to blame. Although the same applies to potential devolution settlements for the big northern regions too, it would finally be time to stop blaming all their woes on Thatcher." This is a free country. Therefore, people can blame who they want and vote for who they want and do what they want. | |||
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"Half the people I know who voted SNP are too young to remember Thatcher. They just believe in change and progression. Rather than hackneyed arguments about how we should be grateful to England for handouts. All the experts on here, apart from one, don't actually live up here, people knew there was a chance we'd still get a Tory government but decided to vote regardless. Really don't get some people. Well yes I do really think they're experts on everything when in reality they know jack. Don't worry about it everyone was a boxing expert last week, something new will be along soon enough " Thanks hunny. Makes me laugh the number of people from England who know everything about Scotland and what's happening up here. | |||
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"I live in Scotland and didn't vote for independence or the SNP. It seems so unfair that Scotland with a population of 5.9 million has 59 seats in Westminster, 56 of them now held by SNP. I'm not a fan of UKIP but they did get 3.9 million votes and only 1 seat in Westminster. Hardly representational of the voting electorate. I fear Nicola Sturgeon will bring Scotland to its knees financially when we have fiscal autonomy. We will probably end up paying more in taxes than those South of the border!. Nice post . Sometimes the truth hurts . The SNP could be a financial disaster for Scotland " totally agree - nationalism is always very dangerous | |||
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"Everyone tends to forget that Wales is the place most fucked over by the Barnett formula at the moment. I also wonder how much influence those 50+ SNP MPs can wield from the opposition benches. About as much influence the 200+ Labour MPs wielded during the last Parliament, presumably. Perhaps the SNP may take up some of the devolved powers they ALREADY HAVE and start using them, pending fuller devolution which will happen but could turn out to be a poisoned chalice for them. No one else to blame. Although the same applies to potential devolution settlements for the big northern regions too, it would finally be time to stop blaming all their woes on Thatcher. This is a free country. Therefore, people can blame who they want and vote for who they want and do what they want." oh but us idiots up in Scotland are not worthy of autonomy. | |||
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"I live in Scotland and didn't vote for independence or the SNP. It seems so unfair that Scotland with a population of 5.9 million has 59 seats in Westminster, 56 of them now held by SNP. I'm not a fan of UKIP but they did get 3.9 million votes and only 1 seat in Westminster. Hardly representational of the voting electorate. I fear Nicola Sturgeon will bring Scotland to its knees financially when we have fiscal autonomy. We will probably end up paying more in taxes than those South of the border!. Nice post . Sometimes the truth hurts . The SNP could be a financial disaster for Scotland totally agree - nationalism is always very dangerous" Nationalism provides people with a common identity. England used to have a common identity until Tony Blair stole it by promoting mass immigration. There is nothing wrong with people wanting to keep there identity. The people in Scotland are Scottish and many of them want independence like America wanted independence from Britain. I hope they get it. | |||
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"You can't live in the past, if coal was profitable the pits wouldn't have closed. I wonder if English farm workers rejoiced when the inventer of the combined harvesting machine died? Or did they just go and find other jobs by a method of TRAVELLING to where the work is rather than STAYING where the work WAS and waiting to be spoon fed a living.... This is a good attitude.
There is no god given right for someone to give you a good job on your door step.". It's also complete and utter fucking nonsense. Let's take those pit villages for instance, the only livelihood in those villages were coal mines, when they closed them, there was no work, now you say like a typical Tory follow the work. So you sell your house in that pit village to follow the work but wait your house is now worth half what it was because 1 it's in a village miles from nowhere and the only work in it has now gone, so your 50k house with a 40k mortgage is only worth 30k meaning your trapped in it?. And 2 Your children, family, friends and all you've ever known was in that village. but like a typical Tory you don't give a fuck because there's no pound of flesh in it for you!!. Nobody disagrees that the coal industry had to change what people disagreed with is how the tory twats went about it. Germany the US and France all managed to change its coal industry without utterly fucking over its workers As for people hating Thatcher all these years later, well that should tell you something of what the bitch did. Her only legacy was dividing a nation in half, something you obviously love to do as your constantly trying to emulate her with the UK | |||
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"Scotland wants to stay in the EU. If the right of the conservative party win the in-out referendum on Europe then the SNP will hold another referendum on Scotland staying in Britain. In order to be a member of Europe, I am confident Scotland would vote to leave Britain. Over the next 5 years, I predict that Britain will leave Europe and Scotland will leave Britain. I suppose it's for the best." Scotland cannot leave something of which it is a physical part. (Great) Britain is the island on which England, Scotland and Wales exist. | |||
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"Everyone tends to forget that Wales is the place most fucked over by the Barnett formula at the moment. I also wonder how much influence those 50+ SNP MPs can wield from the opposition benches. About as much influence the 200+ Labour MPs wielded during the last Parliament, presumably. Perhaps the SNP may take up some of the devolved powers they ALREADY HAVE and start using them, pending fuller devolution which will happen but could turn out to be a poisoned chalice for them. No one else to blame. Although the same applies to potential devolution settlements for the big northern regions too, it would finally be time to stop blaming all their woes on Thatcher. This is a free country. Therefore, people can blame who they want and vote for who they want and do what they want. oh but us idiots up in Scotland are not worthy of autonomy. "You had your chance at autonomy. You collectively said No in a democratic referendum. | |||
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" Nationalism provides people with a common identity. England used to have a common identity until Tony Blair stole it by promoting mass immigration. " This is why there is a complete difference between Scottish nationalism and English nationalism. Scottish nationalism is a broad church - the SNP believes that no matter what your colour, race, religion, sexual orientation, country of origin - if you believe in their vision for Scotland then they welcome you to the table and want you take an equal part in that vision. English nationalism is not a broad church - the BNP and other similar parties - they don't want people of a different colour, they don't want people of different races, they don't want people of non-heterosexual sexual orientations, they don't want foreigners. Those people are not welcome to share in the vision of England. Your comment on mass immigration simply proves the point that for you, and most English people, nationalism is something to exclude people from and not welcome them into! | |||
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"Half the people I know who voted SNP are too young to remember Thatcher. They just believe in change and progression. Rather than hackneyed arguments about how we should be grateful to England for handouts. All the experts on here, apart from one, don't actually live up here, people knew there was a chance we'd still get a Tory government but decided to vote regardless. Really don't get some people. Well yes I do really think they're experts on everything when in reality they know jack." This is a thread about the UK election, and everyone who went out and voted is entirely qualified to express an opinion about that election and should be encouraged to do so, even if it's an opinion which doesn't correspond with yours. The only patronising attitude I've seen on this thread is the one that's telling people they have no right to comment on something. | |||
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"I live in Scotland and didn't vote for independence or the SNP. It seems so unfair that Scotland with a population of 5.9 million has 59 seats in Westminster, 56 of them now held by SNP. I'm not a fan of UKIP but they did get 3.9 million votes and only 1 seat in Westminster. Hardly representational of the voting electorate. I fear Nicola Sturgeon will bring Scotland to its knees financially when we have fiscal autonomy. We will probably end up paying more in taxes than those South of the border!" You make a good point about UKIP, who are now Britains 3rd largest party with nearly 13% share of the national vote, nearly 4 million votes but only 1 MP. Under a proportional representation system UKIP would have got 82 seats in the election, no wonder so many people feel dis-engaged or disillusioned with politics these days. The Greens must feel hard done by aswel, they had over a million votes and only 1 MP. By comparison the SNP get just 1.4 million votes and they return 56 seats. I guess it is what it is though and that is the first past the post system for you. Not all doom and gloom for UKIP though, share of the vote is up massively from 2010, came a good 2nd place in around 90 seats, so something there to build on for 2020. Every cloud has a silver lining and as a UKIP voter i'm glad now we will finally be having an in/out referendum on the EU. Farage may have gone as leader but expect him to carry on as a UKIP MEP and be a very loud voice for the case for britain to leave the EU in the referendum. | |||
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"Half the people I know who voted SNP are too young to remember Thatcher. They just believe in change and progression. Rather than hackneyed arguments about how we should be grateful to England for handouts. All the experts on here, apart from one, don't actually live up here, people knew there was a chance we'd still get a Tory government but decided to vote regardless. Really don't get some people. Well yes I do really think they're experts on everything when in reality they know jack. This is a thread about the UK election, and everyone who went out and voted is entirely qualified to express an opinion about that election and should be encouraged to do so, even if it's an opinion which doesn't correspond with yours. The only patronising attitude I've seen on this thread is the one that's telling people they have no right to comment on something. " You seem to live your life on here commenting on everything. However yes you're right. People are free to comment. Just who's comments are worthy of reading is a completely different thing. | |||
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"Half the people I know who voted SNP are too young to remember Thatcher. They just believe in change and progression. Rather than hackneyed arguments about how we should be grateful to England for handouts. All the experts on here, apart from one, don't actually live up here, people knew there was a chance we'd still get a Tory government but decided to vote regardless. Really don't get some people. Well yes I do really think they're experts on everything when in reality they know jack. This is a thread about the UK election, and everyone who went out and voted is entirely qualified to express an opinion about that election and should be encouraged to do so, even if it's an opinion which doesn't correspond with yours. The only patronising attitude I've seen on this thread is the one that's telling people they have no right to comment on something. You seem to live your life on here commenting on everything. However yes you're right. People are free to comment. Just who's comments are worthy of reading is a completely different thing. " I comment on things that interest me, which includes politics. Person who posts on forums posts on forums, shoot me now. | |||
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"I live in Scotland and didn't vote for independence or the SNP. It seems so unfair that Scotland with a population of 5.9 million has 59 seats in Westminster, 56 of them now held by SNP. I'm not a fan of UKIP but they did get 3.9 million votes and only 1 seat in Westminster. Hardly representational of the voting electorate. I fear Nicola Sturgeon will bring Scotland to its knees financially when we have fiscal autonomy. We will probably end up paying more in taxes than those South of the border!. Nice post . Sometimes the truth hurts . The SNP could be a financial disaster for Scotland " It will be bumpy at first but Ireland has done well being a low-tax economy or the Scandinavian countries where there is a big emphasis on innovation and high tax. It will be bumpy if we leave the EU but a lot of people are willing to make that sacrifice, the same is true for those wanting Scottish independence. | |||
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"The first change is to ring fence the NHS and make it accountable for its own funding as well as performance. This may involve a change in the way that we are taxed so that (as an example) fixed funding comes from a portion of income tax and vat and the independent NHS has the right and the responsibility to charge for certain aspects of the healthcare provision. Secondly, the Newly independent NHS has to have the funding and responsibility to undertake proactive pre-healthcare campaigns that will work to educate people about alcohol, tobacco and obesity and thus reduce the later burden. This may involve the threat of treatment charges for lifestyle induced healthcare support." You see it's comments like this that makes it impossible to take you seriously. | |||
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"Don't the british public never learn from the past mistake by voting for him? You can now say goodbye to nhs lol. Wont be long now as times get tougher with all the cuts, we will no doubt see civil war on the streets. Give it few years.. We how have 9500 more Doctors , 7100 more nurses , and. 2100 more midwives than when the Coalition came to power. NHS productivity has increased by an average of 1.6 % each year and the number of managers by 7000. Hospital infections have halved since 2010. Public satisfaction with the NHS is at its second highest ever level according to the British Social Attitudes survey . Where did you get your figures from please?" . From Wednesdays Daily Mail. | |||
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"You can't live in the past, if coal was profitable the pits wouldn't have closed. I wonder if English farm workers rejoiced when the inventer of the combined harvesting machine died? Or did they just go and find other jobs by a method of TRAVELLING to where the work is rather than STAYING where the work WAS and waiting to be spoon fed a living...." Excellent analogy . In the past I have either travelled or stayed in Bed and Breakfast in order to obtain wotk. | |||
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"The first change is to ring fence the NHS and make it accountable for its own funding as well as performance. This may involve a change in the way that we are taxed so that (as an example) fixed funding comes from a portion of income tax and vat and the independent NHS has the right and the responsibility to charge for certain aspects of the healthcare provision. Secondly, the Newly independent NHS has to have the funding and responsibility to undertake proactive pre-healthcare campaigns that will work to educate people about alcohol, tobacco and obesity and thus reduce the later burden. This may involve the threat of treatment charges for lifestyle induced healthcare support." . Excellent idea and the same should also apply to pensions . Spending additional funds does not necessary equate to a better health service . We need to start with a clean sheet and analyse everything that the NHS does .We need to see who uses the services and should they be using it ? How much dioes each service cost and how much should it cost ?. Can to charge for Doctor appointments to stop unnecessary use of the service ?. Should we charge for food when opeople are in hospital ? Should you be able to opt out from using the NHS and use a private provider instead . If you are building a house you do not tell the builder to spend as much as necessary to build a house, you expect him to do the work within a quote . Why should the NHS be any different ?. | |||
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"Don't the british public never learn from the past mistake by voting for him? You can now say goodbye to nhs lol. Wont be long now as times get tougher with all the cuts, we will no doubt see civil war on the streets. Give it few years.. We how have 9500 more Doctors , 7100 more nurses , and. 2100 more midwives than when the Coalition came to power. NHS productivity has increased by an average of 1.6 % each year and the number of managers by 7000. Hospital infections have halved since 2010. Public satisfaction with the NHS is at its second highest ever level according to the British Social Attitudes survey . Where did you get your figures from please?. From Wednesdays Daily Mail. ." Ok I have found a few different sets of figures from different sources....one of them saying there is 4000 LESS nurses which came from The Royal College of Nursing....so it just proves you shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers as gospel | |||
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"Don't the british public never learn from the past mistake by voting for him? You can now say goodbye to nhs lol. Wont be long now as times get tougher with all the cuts, we will no doubt see civil war on the streets. Give it few years.. We how have 9500 more Doctors , 7100 more nurses , and. 2100 more midwives than when the Coalition came to power. NHS productivity has increased by an average of 1.6 % each year and the number of managers by 7000. Hospital infections have halved since 2010. Public satisfaction with the NHS is at its second highest ever level according to the British Social Attitudes survey . Where did you get your figures from please?. From Wednesdays Daily Mail. . Ok I have found a few different sets of figures from different sources....one of them saying there is 4000 LESS nurses which came from The Royal College of Nursing....so it just proves you shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers as gospel " . True , but which set of figures are correct ? I will go on to the Royal College of Nursing web site later to see how they compile the statistics .  | |||
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"[Removed by poster at 09/05/15 20:39:07]" Hi. Thanks for the advice and have noted your points .  | |||
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"Don't the british public never learn from the past mistake by voting for him? You can now say goodbye to nhs lol. Wont be long now as times get tougher with all the cuts, we will no doubt see civil war on the streets. Give it few years.. We how have 9500 more Doctors , 7100 more nurses , and. 2100 more midwives than when the Coalition came to power. NHS productivity has increased by an average of 1.6 % each year and the number of managers by 7000. Hospital infections have halved since 2010. Public satisfaction with the NHS is at its second highest ever level according to the British Social Attitudes survey . Where did you get your figures from please?. From Wednesdays Daily Mail. . Ok I have found a few different sets of figures from different sources....one of them saying there is 4000 LESS nurses which came from The Royal College of Nursing....so it just proves you shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers as gospel . True , but which set of figures are correct ? I will go on to the Royal College of Nursing web site later to see how they compile the statistics . "I didn't say anyones are correct, I said I read lots of different sources saying different figures.I read it from a newspaper article and then said you shouldn't believe everything as gospel as obviously all of the articles can't be right. It is a shame that people can't debate with the need for rollie eyes emoticons though | |||
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"The first change is to ring fence the NHS and make it accountable for its own funding as well as performance. This may involve a change in the way that we are taxed so that (as an example) fixed funding comes from a portion of income tax and vat and the independent NHS has the right and the responsibility to charge for certain aspects of the healthcare provision. Secondly, the Newly independent NHS has to have the funding and responsibility to undertake proactive pre-healthcare campaigns that will work to educate people about alcohol, tobacco and obesity and thus reduce the later burden. This may involve the threat of treatment charges for lifestyle induced healthcare support.. Excellent idea and the same should also apply to pensions . Spending additional funds does not necessary equate to a better health service . We need to start with a clean sheet and analyse everything that the NHS does .We need to see who uses the services and should they be using it ? How much dioes each service cost and how much should it cost ?. Can to charge for Doctor appointments to stop unnecessary use of the service ?. Should we charge for food when opeople are in hospital ? Should you be able to opt out from using the NHS and use a private provider instead . If you are building a house you do not tell the builder to spend as much as necessary to build a house, you expect him to do the work within a quote . Why should the NHS be any different ?. " Because it's a health service, not a house, maybe!! | |||
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"Someone told me today that the conservatives will now introduce new constituency borders (something they planned to do but were held back fby the LibDems) which will favour themselves and when Cameron stands down, the popular and intelligently personable Boris Johnson will be leader and pm. " It's true that the changes in boundaries will benefit the Tories by about 20 to 30 seats but it's not a Tory plot. The changes were proposed by the boundaries commission and simply go some way to rectify an imbalance of 50+ seats that the current boundaries had in favour of Labour. I said had because that 50 seats included Scottish seats. However the boundaries are not changed for the benefit of any party but are changed so that each constituency has roughly the same number of people, any benefit to any party as a result is coincidental. | |||
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"The border changes where recommended by an independent commission due to population movement etc. It was stopped by Lib Dems as it was feared it would favour tories. " Actually it was stopped by the LubDems because the Tories renegaded on House of Lords reform. No other reason. " The constituency borders are meant to be examined every 10 years because of population changes etc." | |||
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"The first change is to ring fence the NHS and make it accountable for its own funding as well as performance. This may involve a change in the way that we are taxed so that (as an example) fixed funding comes from a portion of income tax and vat and the independent NHS has the right and the responsibility to charge for certain aspects of the healthcare provision. Secondly, the Newly independent NHS has to have the funding and responsibility to undertake proactive pre-healthcare campaigns that will work to educate people about alcohol, tobacco and obesity and thus reduce the later burden. This may involve the threat of treatment charges for lifestyle induced healthcare support.. Excellent idea and the same should also apply to pensions . Spending additional funds does not necessary equate to a better health service . We need to start with a clean sheet and analyse everything that the NHS does .We need to see who uses the services and should they be using it ? How much dioes each service cost and how much should it cost ?. Can to charge for Doctor appointments to stop unnecessary use of the service ?. Should we charge for food when opeople are in hospital ? Should you be able to opt out from using the NHS and use a private provider instead . If you are building a house you do not tell the builder to spend as much as necessary to build a house, you expect him to do the work within a quote . Why should the NHS be any different ?. Because it's a health service, not a house, maybe!!" As long as the health service is _iewed as something you get for free whatever the circumstances it will continue to be wasteful and costly. The people who use the health service also need to understand the value of the treatment that they receive as well as accepting personal accountability and responsibility when they seek treatment. | |||
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"Don't the british public never learn from the past mistake by voting for him? You can now say goodbye to nhs lol. Wont be long now as times get tougher with all the cuts, we will no doubt see civil war on the streets. Give it few years." People do learn from the past mistakes and by looking into the past you will find that the only government to ever actually cut NHS spending was Jim Callaghan's Labour government in 1978. Labour have banged on for 30+ years about the Tories wanting to destroy the NHS yet it's still here. The only people who believe that lie anymore are already Labour supporters. That's partly the reason why Labour lost. They're only talking and listening to themselves. | |||
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"The first change is to ring fence the NHS and make it accountable for its own funding as well as performance. This may involve a change in the way that we are taxed so that (as an example) fixed funding comes from a portion of income tax and vat and the independent NHS has the right and the responsibility to charge for certain aspects of the healthcare provision. Secondly, the Newly independent NHS has to have the funding and responsibility to undertake proactive pre-healthcare campaigns that will work to educate people about alcohol, tobacco and obesity and thus reduce the later burden. This may involve the threat of treatment charges for lifestyle induced healthcare support. You see it's comments like this that makes it impossible to take you seriously." Thanks for your inspired response. As opposed to making a childish and personal comment, why don't you highlight what you disagree with and why... You know, like grown ups do when they are having a debate. Perhaps you disagree that the NHS should be independent of governmental? You prefer it to continue to be a political football kicked around at every election with one Party promising this and another Party promising something else? Maybe you think that politicians know best? Or maybe you think that we as users should be completely disrespectful about the service we receive by taking it for granted and abusing it? | |||
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"Labour Leadership race Good words from Tristram Hunt and Simon Dunszak on the news this morning. Labour need a strong down to earth leader who can appeal to the broader electorate. I think there enough pitfalls for the Tories to overcome in the next 5 years to suggest that a strong Labour with a proper broad appeal might do quite well. The EU referendum will see the Tories drag up old divisions, the leadership question will also cause trouble. There may well be disillusionment if the economic plan is not seen to be working, and if the SNP is seen as impotent there is reason to believe that Labour might win back some seats. The key is getting a leader that is not seen as a union patsy, is not seen as a career politician who is out of touch, and someone with a vision. I think we are in for an interesting few years "I think Stella Creasy or Chuka Umunna. Thoughts? | |||
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"Wish we could of voted for Rick astley He would never Give you up Let you down Run around desert you Make you cry Say goodbye Tell a lie Or hurt you " finally some humour to lighten this thread what a pile of dribble.
Politicians are in it for the money not for the country, not for the people they only want to line their own pockets. The Tories are in again because there was no one else, they are all as bad as each other. A five year pay freeze should be put on all MPs and their associates, the top CEOs of the banks and all the other big firms should have their bonus stopped and pumped into the economy to help bail it out. The hospitals should go back to being run by the doctors and nurses not management firms and trusts. Local buisnesses should be encouraged and only buy British pumping the money back through our system again. All this foreign buying and out sourcing is killing the country not helping it. Big firms not paying tax should be cast out of Britain, if they are not paying into the system get rid of them. Have a bit of pride in our country and its ability to recover don't write it off. Get rid of career MPs and get them to do a proper job before they go into politics what do they know about normal people they have never lived as one. Abolish their expenses system they get paid enough to pay their own way, we have too. Right that is my 2ds worth. Most of the older generation feel betrayed by the Blair government, he was supposed to stand up for the people and instead went all out to screw the normal working man just to make a name for himself. So the elder generation voted Tories because they were so angry with labour, but when it comes down to it they are all liers | |||
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"The first change is to ring fence the NHS and make it accountable for its own funding as well as performance. This may involve a change in the way that we are taxed so that (as an example) fixed funding comes from a portion of income tax and vat and the independent NHS has the right and the responsibility to charge for certain aspects of the healthcare provision. Secondly, the Newly independent NHS has to have the funding and responsibility to undertake proactive pre-healthcare campaigns that will work to educate people about alcohol, tobacco and obesity and thus reduce the later burden. This may involve the threat of treatment charges for lifestyle induced healthcare support.. Excellent idea and the same should also apply to pensions . Spending additional funds does not necessary equate to a better health service . We need to start with a clean sheet and analyse everything that the NHS does .We need to see who uses the services and should they be using it ? How much dioes each service cost and how much should it cost ?. Can to charge for Doctor appointments to stop unnecessary use of the service ?. Should we charge for food when opeople are in hospital ? Should you be able to opt out from using the NHS and use a private provider instead . If you are building a house you do not tell the builder to spend as much as necessary to build a house, you expect him to do the work within a quote . Why should the NHS be any different ?. " We pay National Insurance for the health service and a pension why should we denied either. Unless you have paid into the system you should be given minimal treatment, this should also be the case for people doing things to damage their health on purpose. I have been in hospital a few times for injuries and illness, each time having long waits in a&e waiting on a bed. Only when I was taken to the ward to find loads of empty beds due to staff shortages and no money to open wards. Get rid of the admin staff, and managers they are the drain, make nurses and doctors accountable for their own supplies the way it used to be. There are way to many civil servants and not enough professionals around now | |||
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"There was a photo doing the rounds on Facebook last week which I thought pretty much summed up Labour. A picture of Milliband with the following caption. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a week. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he will vote Labour. "There was a rap posted on Facebook today using David Cameron's on words it was great and pretty much described the Tories in a nutshell. Look after the rich who cares about the poor, disabled and needy | |||
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"There was a photo doing the rounds on Facebook last week which I thought pretty much summed up Labour. A picture of Milliband with the following caption. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a week. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he will vote Labour.
There was a rap posted on Facebook today using David Cameron's on words it was great and pretty much described the Tories in a nutshell. Look after the rich who cares about the poor, disabled and needy"Well that line of ' The Tories only look after the rich ' didn't do Labour much good this time round did it. When you guys on the left going to learn. | |||
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"There was a photo doing the rounds on Facebook last week which I thought pretty much summed up Labour. A picture of Milliband with the following caption. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a week. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he will vote Labour.
There was a rap posted on Facebook today using David Cameron's on words it was great and pretty much described the Tories in a nutshell. Look after the rich who cares about the poor, disabled and needy
Well that line of ' The Tories only look after the rich ' didn't do Labour much good this time round did it. When you guys on the left going to learn. "They aren't going to learn , simple as that . If the rich stay in the UK , they fund the welfare state . Their success and taxes create employment and thus everyone benefits . The assumption by the left that we should tax them more just leads to them leaving and who benefits from that ? We should reward success and encourage it . The Tories do this , the left penalise and even demonise it . | |||
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"Neither the Northern Irish, nor the Welsh are in the habit of always bleating about how unfair life is because of the English. Neither do they hold lifelong grudges that they pass on to their children. You are unlikely to hear a Welsh teenager rejoicing at the passing of Mrs Thatcher." you know absolutely fuck all about the welsh and how they feel and for you to make this comment whilst trying to appear that you have any kind of knowledge on the subject is frankly laughable .... try sticking to what you know to be absolutely true instead of making up untruths to bolster your weak arguements | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. " | |||
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"Neither the Northern Irish, nor the Welsh are in the habit of always bleating about how unfair life is because of the English. Neither do they hold lifelong grudges that they pass on to their children. You are unlikely to hear a Welsh teenager rejoicing at the passing of Mrs Thatcher. you know absolutely fuck all about the welsh and how they feel and for you to make this comment whilst trying to appear that you have any kind of knowledge on the subject is frankly laughable .... try sticking to what you know to be absolutely true instead of making up untruths to bolster your weak arguements" | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. " | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate.
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"Labour Leadership race Good words from Tristram Hunt and Simon Dunszak on the news this morning. Labour need a strong down to earth leader who can appeal to the broader electorate. I think there enough pitfalls for the Tories to overcome in the next 5 years to suggest that a strong Labour with a proper broad appeal might do quite well. The EU referendum will see the Tories drag up old divisions, the leadership question will also cause trouble. There may well be disillusionment if the economic plan is not seen to be working, and if the SNP is seen as impotent there is reason to believe that Labour might win back some seats. The key is getting a leader that is not seen as a union patsy, is not seen as a career politician who is out of touch, and someone with a vision. I think we are in for an interesting few years
I think Stella Creasy or Chuka Umunna. Thoughts?"If you really think that just changing the leadership is going to solve Labour's problems then your seriously deluding yourself. Despite character assignation attempts against Miliband his personal rating actually increased during the campaign. I personally think he came across pretty well, giving the impression of being both caring and sincere. Labour's problem was not the messenger, it was the message. And the message problem is doubly difficult for them because, on first analysis, it seems like the message was too left for England but too right for Scotland. Labour needs to do some serious soul searching and think long and hard about not only what message it has for the British people but also how it should go about delivering that message as clearly the old method, which basically says anyone who votes Conservative is a selfish, thoughtless, uncaring twat, isn't working for them. | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? " Yep, you go first. | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? Yep, you go first." Well ukip would have 82 seats Snp would have 31 Greens would have 24 | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? Yep, you go first. Well ukip would have 82 seats Snp would have 31 Greens would have 24" good on the greens | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? Yep, you go first. Well ukip would have 82 seats Snp would have 31 Greens would have 24 good on the greens" Unfortunately we don't have this system. So I think the SNP will keep hold of Scotland for quite some time, that means labour has a lot of work to do if they want to get anywhere near number 10 again | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? I tried to raise AV and PR on one of the other threads. We're not ready yet. "We can see the problems with PR systems by looking at countries like Israel, where very small ultra right wing parties have dominated the overall direction of government policy for decades. Or Belgium where, because the parties can not agree, there has been no elected government for ages and the country is being run and governed by Bureaucrats. AV, which personally I think is quite a good system, was rejected by the British electorate in a referendum in 2011. It's too soon to go back and ask them again just because they gave the wrong answer; this isn't Ireland, Holland or France. | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. " . A good post . Everything that you have in life has to be earned. The government owe you nothing . | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. . A good post . Everything that you have in life has to be earned. The government owe you nothing ." It's a shame a lot of people don't think that way. A few of the lads I went through school with ask me "if I'm still working like a donkey" guess which party these guys support whilst trying to do as little as fucking possible in life | |||
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"cons only got in as they used politics of fear! and that will only work once. " I think Labour needs to concentrate on it's own message to the electorate and not look to blame it's defeat on the message of other parties, either Conservative or SNP " and to be honest next election 2020, after 10 years in, they cant claim to still be "clearing up labours mess" also UKIP and SNP had a major effect on labours seats. i think ukip will soon be over and snp will be back to labour when they realize that even 56 seats won't get them the fairness they wanted. we do need david milliband though" Outside of Scotland, I think the SNP has had little effect on the Labour vote although it may have persuaded some Tory voters flirting with UKIP back into the camp. You have to realise that Labour's defeat in England is so crushing and complete that even if they had won every seat in Scotland they still would have lost the election. UKIP itself I think is probably a busted flush now as after the referendum on the EU I can't see what relevance it could have, mind you many thought the same about the SNP last year and were wrong. | |||
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"I realize that. but the racists who used to vote labour and voted UKIP led to tories getting tiny majorities in seats all over the country. one was i think 47 votes over labour for a seat. that is down to ukip, not a fault with labour. " So people are racist for voting ukip ? | |||
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"I realize that. but the racists who used to vote labour and voted UKIP led to tories getting tiny majorities in seats all over the country. one was i think 47 votes over labour for a seat. that is down to ukip, not a fault with labour. " Also the greens took votes from labour. | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. . A good post . Everything that you have in life has to be earned. The government owe you nothing . It's a shame a lot of people don't think that way. A few of the lads I went through school with ask me "if I'm still working like a donkey" guess which party these guys support whilst trying to do as little as fucking possible in life " Yes Choose not to be bereaved when several members of your family die Choose not to have a disability Choose not to grow up with abuse Choose not to suffer PTSD if you were previously in a war zone or working for the murder squad Choose your spouse not to desert you when you forfeited your own career to raise your kids at their request I'm ashamed to be English right now. | |||
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"well id say the element of racism in ukip certainly appealed northern labour tories who feel their jobs are taken by immigrants" Northern labour Tories? | |||
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"I realize that. but the racists who used to vote labour and voted UKIP led to tories getting tiny majorities in seats all over the country. one was i think 47 votes over labour for a seat. that is down to ukip, not a fault with labour. " Actually it is down to Labour because it has consistently avoided any real discussion on immigration for years, casting anyone who tried to raise the subject as a racist. The reality is is that people have real worries about immigration which Labour, until quite recently, has simply refused to address. Telling people that they are racist for raising those issues is not going to win Labour any votes. And, to be honest, if you really think they are racist, why do you want their votes? The only truly moral stance to take on real racism is surely one of ' I'd rather loose with out you than win with you ' | |||
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" I think Labour needs to concentrate on it's own message to the electorate and not look to blame it's defeat on the message of other parties, either Conservative or SNP." Hopefully their leadership contest will reflect this. If they'd had a strong offer to the electorate, it wouldn't have mattered a jot what the Conservatives and SNP were up to. To poll lower than in 2010 when they were limping along after 13 years in power is a disaster, and it's not just about an individual (Ed Milliband) or the other parties. | |||
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"well id say the element of racism in ukip certainly appealed northern labour tories who feel their jobs are taken by immigrants" Possibly but you aren't automatically racist if you feel that because immigrants are not all one race and certain industries have been totally changed as a result increased migration. Building and catering industry to name just two, I voted Labour anyway. | |||
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"There was a photo doing the rounds on Facebook last week which I thought pretty much summed up Labour. A picture of Milliband with the following caption. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a week. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he will vote Labour.
There was a rap posted on Facebook today using David Cameron's on words it was great and pretty much described the Tories in a nutshell. Look after the rich who cares about the poor, disabled and needy
Well that line of ' The Tories only look after the rich ' didn't do Labour much good this time round did it. When you guys on the left going to learn.
They aren't going to learn , simple as that .
If the rich stay in the UK , they fund the welfare state . Their success and taxes create employment and thus everyone benefits .
The assumption by the left that we should tax them more just leads to them leaving and who benefits from that ?
We should reward success and encourage it . The Tories do this , the left penalise and even demonise it ."It's nonsense that the left demonise success. They brought in widening participation incentives to encourage universities to attract underrepresented ie disadvantaged, groups meaning thousands suddenly had opportunities in life. The Tories on the other hand make life so difficult no one who is poor will ever be able to get out of it. | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. . A good post . Everything that you have in life has to be earned. The government owe you nothing . It's a shame a lot of people don't think that way. A few of the lads I went through school with ask me "if I'm still working like a donkey" guess which party these guys support whilst trying to do as little as fucking possible in life Yes Choose not to be bereaved when several members of your family die Choose not to have a disability Choose not to grow up with abuse Choose not to suffer PTSD if you were previously in a war zone or working for the murder squad Choose your spouse not to desert you when you forfeited your own career to raise your kids at their request I'm ashamed to be English right now." You've mistook what I'm getting at, I'm talking about people who can work, who quite simply have no intention what so ever of working (unless it's cash in hand of course) yet these same people want more and more handouts. The welfare system is there for the points you have posted....not the abuse of the system that I've posted. | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. . A good post . Everything that you have in life has to be earned. The government owe you nothing . It's a shame a lot of people don't think that way. A few of the lads I went through school with ask me "if I'm still working like a donkey" guess which party these guys support whilst trying to do as little as fucking possible in life Yes Choose not to be bereaved when several members of your family die Choose not to have a disability Choose not to grow up with abuse Choose not to suffer PTSD if you were previously in a war zone or working for the murder squad Choose your spouse not to desert you when you forfeited your own career to raise your kids at their request I'm ashamed to be English right now." I'm not sure I clearly see the connection or juxtaposition here; can you clarify what you're trying to say and the point you're trying to make. | |||
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"There was a photo doing the rounds on Facebook last week which I thought pretty much summed up Labour. A picture of Milliband with the following caption. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a week. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he will vote Labour.
There was a rap posted on Facebook today using David Cameron's on words it was great and pretty much described the Tories in a nutshell. Look after the rich who cares about the poor, disabled and needy
Well that line of ' The Tories only look after the rich ' didn't do Labour much good this time round did it. When you guys on the left going to learn.
They aren't going to learn , simple as that .
If the rich stay in the UK , they fund the welfare state . Their success and taxes create employment and thus everyone benefits .
The assumption by the left that we should tax them more just leads to them leaving and who benefits from that ?
We should reward success and encourage it . The Tories do this , the left penalise and even demonise it .
It's nonsense that the left demonise success. They brought in widening participation incentives to encourage universities to attract underrepresented ie disadvantaged, groups meaning thousands suddenly had opportunities in life.
The Tories on the other hand make life so difficult no one who is poor will ever be able to get out of it. "Sorry but I can't agree . It's not just university education that creates success . It's hard work , and many success stories are based on this fact . I had no further education , and now own successful businesses , online and retail,. The ethic of reward for work is greater under the conservatives . | |||
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"There was a photo doing the rounds on Facebook last week which I thought pretty much summed up Labour. A picture of Milliband with the following caption. Give a man a fish and he will eat for a week. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Promise a man someone else's fish and he will vote Labour.
There was a rap posted on Facebook today using David Cameron's on words it was great and pretty much described the Tories in a nutshell. Look after the rich who cares about the poor, disabled and needy
Well that line of ' The Tories only look after the rich ' didn't do Labour much good this time round did it. When you guys on the left going to learn.
They aren't going to learn , simple as that .
If the rich stay in the UK , they fund the welfare state . Their success and taxes create employment and thus everyone benefits .
The assumption by the left that we should tax them more just leads to them leaving and who benefits from that ?
We should reward success and encourage it . The Tories do this , the left penalise and even demonise it .
It's nonsense that the left demonise success. They brought in widening participation incentives to encourage universities to attract underrepresented ie disadvantaged, groups meaning thousands suddenly had opportunities in life.
"This part is good. Makes me feel all fuzzy and warm and that there are people out there who care about others less fortunate than themselves. " The Tories on the other hand make life so difficult no one who is poor will ever be able to get out of it. " This part is total shit and only appeals to people who are already Labour supporters. Don't you get it yet. People want to hear Labour's message NOT Labour's interpretation of the Conservative's message. Insulting the intelligence of the electorate isn't going to win you votes. | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. . A good post . Everything that you have in life has to be earned. The government owe you nothing . It's a shame a lot of people don't think that way. A few of the lads I went through school with ask me "if I'm still working like a donkey" guess which party these guys support whilst trying to do as little as fucking possible in life Yes Choose not to be bereaved when several members of your family die Choose not to have a disability Choose not to grow up with abuse Choose not to suffer PTSD if you were previously in a war zone or working for the murder squad Choose your spouse not to desert you when you forfeited your own career to raise your kids at their request I'm ashamed to be English right now. You've mistook what I'm getting at, I'm talking about people who can work, who quite simply have no intention what so ever of working (unless it's cash in hand of course) yet these same people want more and more handouts. The welfare system is there for the points you have posted....not the abuse of the system that I've posted. " To be fair those who abuse the system are in a tiny minority. But it's been exaggerated to such a point we are now demonising anyone who suffers a misfortune in life. Something like 98% of benefits are claimed ethically and justifiably, but all those people are being treated like dirt for the dishonesty of a small number of people. | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. . A good post . Everything that you have in life has to be earned. The government owe you nothing . It's a shame a lot of people don't think that way. A few of the lads I went through school with ask me "if I'm still working like a donkey" guess which party these guys support whilst trying to do as little as fucking possible in life Yes Choose not to be bereaved when several members of your family die Choose not to have a disability Choose not to grow up with abuse Choose not to suffer PTSD if you were previously in a war zone or working for the murder squad Choose your spouse not to desert you when you forfeited your own career to raise your kids at their request I'm ashamed to be English right now." . The vulnerable still get benefits regardless of which party is in power . From what I can see many people on benefits do very well. I could not afford to support more than two children yet those on benefits seem to think it is OK to expect us to support their large families . I don't have Sky TV or eat takeaway food . Lots of those on benefits seem to be able to afford to. If you want things in life , you have to work for them. | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. . A good post . Everything that you have in life has to be earned. The government owe you nothing . It's a shame a lot of people don't think that way. A few of the lads I went through school with ask me "if I'm still working like a donkey" guess which party these guys support whilst trying to do as little as fucking possible in life Yes Choose not to be bereaved when several members of your family die Choose not to have a disability Choose not to grow up with abuse Choose not to suffer PTSD if you were previously in a war zone or working for the murder squad Choose your spouse not to desert you when you forfeited your own career to raise your kids at their request I'm ashamed to be English right now. You've mistook what I'm getting at, I'm talking about people who can work, who quite simply have no intention what so ever of working (unless it's cash in hand of course) yet these same people want more and more handouts. The welfare system is there for the points you have posted....not the abuse of the system that I've posted. To be fair those who abuse the system are in a tiny minority. But it's been exaggerated to such a point we are now demonising anyone who suffers a misfortune in life. Something like 98% of benefits are claimed ethically and justifiably, but all those people are being treated like dirt for the dishonesty of a small number of people." I won't pester you on where you're getting your 98% figure from, I suspect it's probably quite a few points less than that, but your overall point, that most benefit claims are valid and legitimate, is true. However that does not mean that we should not chaise those that aren't, even if it costs more than it saves. | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? I tried to raise AV and PR on one of the other threads. We're not ready yet.
We can see the problems with PR systems by looking at countries like Israel, where very small ultra right wing parties have dominated the overall direction of government policy for decades. Or Belgium where, because the parties can not agree, there has been no elected government for ages and the country is being run and governed by Bureaucrats.
AV, which personally I think is quite a good system, was rejected by the British electorate in a referendum in 2011. It's too soon to go back and ask them again just because they gave the wrong answer; this isn't Ireland, Holland or France."To quote Paddy Ashdown on Question Time the other night while talking about the alternative vote, or proportional representation....."You're a Tory, you would say that would'nt you". Tories just won under first past the post, so its obvious you would want to keep it. | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate. . A good post . Everything that you have in life has to be earned. The government owe you nothing . It's a shame a lot of people don't think that way. A few of the lads I went through school with ask me "if I'm still working like a donkey" guess which party these guys support whilst trying to do as little as fucking possible in life Yes Choose not to be bereaved when several members of your family die Choose not to have a disability Choose not to grow up with abuse Choose not to suffer PTSD if you were previously in a war zone or working for the murder squad Choose your spouse not to desert you when you forfeited your own career to raise your kids at their request I'm ashamed to be English right now.. The vulnerable still get benefits regardless of which party is in power . From what I can see many people on benefits do very well. I could not afford to support more than two children yet those on benefits seem to think it is OK to expect us to support their large families . I don't have Sky TV or eat takeaway food . Lots of those on benefits seem to be able to afford to. If you want things in life , you have to work for them. " You see a few large families on benefits in the media and suddenly now they're all breeding like rabbits and expecting YOU to foot the bill. If you look at the objective statistics ie not those in the daily fail, you'll see most families on benefits are there as a result of job loss or family breakdown. I see people everyday whose lives are absolutely miserable due to poverty. This notion of rich benefit claimants is laughable. Life is dire for a lot of people and it's only going to get worse now. | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? I tried to raise AV and PR on one of the other threads. We're not ready yet.
We can see the problems with PR systems by looking at countries like Israel, where very small ultra right wing parties have dominated the overall direction of government policy for decades. Or Belgium where, because the parties can not agree, there has been no elected government for ages and the country is being run and governed by Bureaucrats.
AV, which personally I think is quite a good system, was rejected by the British electorate in a referendum in 2011. It's too soon to go back and ask them again just because they gave the wrong answer; this isn't Ireland, Holland or France.
To quote Paddy Ashdown on Question Time the other night while talking about the alternative vote, or proportional representation....."You're a Tory, you would say that would'nt you". Tories just won under first past the post, so its obvious you would want to keep it. "Actually I'm a Liberal so, no, I wouldn't just say that, would I. | |||
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" I won't pester you on where you're getting your 98% figure from, I suspect it's probably quite a few points less than that, but your overall point, that most benefit claims are valid and legitimate, is true. However that does not mean that we should not chaise those that aren't, even if it costs more than it saves." Pester away. 'myth busting real figures benefit fraud' CAB link Even when the cost is human lives? It's no exaggeration to state that Tory policy has cost people their lives, from terminally ill people being forced to sit assessments and to go to work, to people dying as a result of completely outrageous sanctions. | |||
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"cons only got in as they used politics of fear! and that will only work once. and to be honest next election 2020, after 10 years in, they cant claim to still be "clearing up labours mess" also UKIP and SNP had a major effect on labours seats. i think ukip will soon be over and snp will be back to labour when they realize that even 56 seats won't get them the fairness they wanted. we do need david milliband though" Some people wrote off the SNP after their defeat in the referendum, and when Alex Salmond stood down as leader. Only they have gone from strength to strength under Nicola Sturgeon. Now people writing UKIP off after Nigel Farage has stood down, we will see what happens in the EU referendum (which will give UKIP plenty of media coverage as they appear to be the only real anti EU party putting the case forward to leave the EU). In terms of the general election, UKIPs share of the vote went up massively from 2010, now the 3rd largest party in the UK in terms of share of the vote, and came a solid 2nd place in over 90 seats. Things are looking good for UKIP for 2020. | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? I tried to raise AV and PR on one of the other threads. We're not ready yet.
We can see the problems with PR systems by looking at countries like Israel, where very small ultra right wing parties have dominated the overall direction of government policy for decades. Or Belgium where, because the parties can not agree, there has been no elected government for ages and the country is being run and governed by Bureaucrats.
AV, which personally I think is quite a good system, was rejected by the British electorate in a referendum in 2011. It's too soon to go back and ask them again just because they gave the wrong answer; this isn't Ireland, Holland or France.
To quote Paddy Ashdown on Question Time the other night while talking about the alternative vote, or proportional representation....."You're a Tory, you would say that would'nt you". Tories just won under first past the post, so its obvious you would want to keep it.
Actually I'm a Liberal so, no, I wouldn't just say that, would I."Well you fooled me, you are always putting the case forward for the tories on here. | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? I tried to raise AV and PR on one of the other threads. We're not ready yet.
We can see the problems with PR systems by looking at countries like Israel, where very small ultra right wing parties have dominated the overall direction of government policy for decades. Or Belgium where, because the parties can not agree, there has been no elected government for ages and the country is being run and governed by Bureaucrats.
AV, which personally I think is quite a good system, was rejected by the British electorate in a referendum in 2011. It's too soon to go back and ask them again just because they gave the wrong answer; this isn't Ireland, Holland or France.
To quote Paddy Ashdown on Question Time the other night while talking about the alternative vote, or proportional representation....."You're a Tory, you would say that would'nt you". Tories just won under first past the post, so its obvious you would want to keep it.
Actually I'm a Liberal so, no, I wouldn't just say that, would I.
Well you fooled me, you are always putting the case forward for the tories on here. "A bit like Nick Clegg in the coalition. | |||
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" I won't pester you on where you're getting your 98% figure from, I suspect it's probably quite a few points less than that, but your overall point, that most benefit claims are valid and legitimate, is true. However that does not mean that we should not chaise those that aren't, even if it costs more than it saves. Pester away. 'myth busting real figures benefit fraud' CAB link Even when the cost is human lives? It's no exaggeration to state that Tory policy has cost people their lives, from terminally ill people being forced to sit assessments and to go to work, to people dying as a result of completely outrageous sanctions. " I thought we were talking about bogus claims here not incorrect assessments. | |||
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"Can we discuss Proportional representation yet? I tried to raise AV and PR on one of the other threads. We're not ready yet.
We can see the problems with PR systems by looking at countries like Israel, where very small ultra right wing parties have dominated the overall direction of government policy for decades. Or Belgium where, because the parties can not agree, there has been no elected government for ages and the country is being run and governed by Bureaucrats.
AV, which personally I think is quite a good system, was rejected by the British electorate in a referendum in 2011. It's too soon to go back and ask them again just because they gave the wrong answer; this isn't Ireland, Holland or France.
To quote Paddy Ashdown on Question Time the other night while talking about the alternative vote, or proportional representation....."You're a Tory, you would say that would'nt you". Tories just won under first past the post, so its obvious you would want to keep it.
Actually I'm a Liberal so, no, I wouldn't just say that, would I.
Well you fooled me, you are always putting the case forward for the tories on here.
A bit like Nick Clegg in the coalition. "You need to read my posts more carefully then. I've posted argument against some of the posts of Tory supporters to. And, yes, a bit like Nic Clegg except he's a Liberal Democrat where as I'm a Liberal Unionist. | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate.
"
Growing up I can remember how hard my parents worked. They both worked hard in relatively low paid jobs. To top up income my Mum did a cleaning job before work in the morning, and one in the evening which I would go and help with, being paid with a bar of chocolate at the end of the week. Dad used to do gardening work at the weekends and again I would help. Holiday's were in a tent on the south coast, clothes were invariably 2nd hand and luxuries didn't really exist. But we relied on no one but ourselves and over time things got better and easier, because of hard work. | |||
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"A lot of people like to blame whatever government is in power for their woes Maybe people should take responsibility for their own actions and choices Too many people expect things handed to them on a plate.
Growing up I can remember how hard my parents worked. They both worked hard in relatively low paid jobs. To top up income my Mum did a cleaning job before work in the morning, and one in the evening which I would go and help with, being paid with a bar of chocolate at the end of the week. Dad used to do gardening work at the weekends and again I would help. Holiday's were in a tent on the south coast, clothes were invariably 2nd hand and luxuries didn't really exist. But we relied on no one but ourselves and over time things got better and easier, because of hard work."My god! Surely you just sit next to the smoking remains of your old industry and demand hand outs for ever more?! | |||
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