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The Economy
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"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? " YES. All independent data points to Britain being on the up thanks to a focused and determined effort to balance spending cuts and encourage growth. The alternative today had we followed the French and voted in a socialist government would be what the French are suffering today. An economy in meltdown, growing unemployment, widespread public dissent and twice as many food banks as we have in the UK. It may be tough for some people but that will always be the case and always is the case. As the saying goes you can't please all of the people all of the time. | |||
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"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? " No. It's a false economy. National debt is higher than its ever been. | |||
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"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? No. It's a false economy. National debt is higher than its ever been. " 
I wish people would stop throwing glitter on this turd. | |||
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"Are the Tories massaging and manipulating the true facts in order to get re-elected? " Never !!!!! U shock me | |||
"Are the Tories massaging and manipulating the true facts in order to get re-elected? " You reckon that there is some great conspiracy to pay backhanders to the ONS? How would that work if/when government changes? | |||
"Are the Tories massaging and manipulating the true facts in order to get re-elected? You reckon that there is some great conspiracy to pay backhanders to the ONS? How would that work if/when government changes?" Watch out the Tory party activists are back .... Lurking spinning  | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? YES. All independent data points to Britain being on the up thanks to a focused and determined effort to balance spending cuts and encourage growth. The alternative today had we followed the French and voted in a socialist government would be what the French are suffering today. An economy in meltdown, growing unemployment, widespread public dissent and twice as many food banks as we have in the UK. It may be tough for some people but that will always be the case and always is the case. As the saying goes you can't please all of the people all of the time." . Our debt is almost the same as France, your obsessed with reducing debt which is madness as the system you love and promote requires debt more and more and more it's perpetual debt. The US has more debt than anyone and higher debt to gdp ratio because it's a consumer economy, for consumption you need money, money gets created through debt that's where 95% of a countries currency is created... With debt!. Frances problems lie with the very fact it's not a good consumer economy but has the same debt ratio. If you want less debt you'd have to transform our economy into an exporting one. That my friend is fundamental to your argument!. Now seen as we've been exporting less and less for decades and that 2.4% growth you keep banging on about is not manufacturing or industry as there currently at 1997 levels I suggest that the growth you loving and hailing as a recovered economy is coming from yes you guessed it debt, and to be specific that 850 billion the coalition have racked up in five years. Your favourite saying... You can't have it both ways! | |||
"Are the Tories massaging and manipulating the true facts in order to get re-elected? You reckon that there is some great conspiracy to pay backhanders to the ONS? How would that work if/when government changes?" The unemployment figures have been massaged and manipulated for decades. Haven't they? | |||
They just need to sort a few other things out now and all will be hunky dory | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? YES. All independent data points to Britain being on the up thanks to a focused and determined effort to balance spending cuts and encourage growth. The alternative today had we followed the French and voted in a socialist government would be what the French are suffering today. An economy in meltdown, growing unemployment, widespread public dissent and twice as many food banks as we have in the UK. It may be tough for some people but that will always be the case and always is the case. As the saying goes you can't please all of the people all of the time.. Our debt is almost the same as France, your obsessed with reducing debt which is madness as the system you love and promote requires debt more and more and more it's perpetual debt. The US has more debt than anyone and higher debt to gdp ratio because it's a consumer economy, for consumption you need money, money gets created through debt that's where 95% of a countries currency is created... With debt!. Frances problems lie with the very fact it's not a good consumer economy but has the same debt ratio. If you want less debt you'd have to transform our economy into an exporting one. That my friend is fundamental to your argument!. Now seen as we've been exporting less and less for decades and that 2.4% growth you keep banging on about is not manufacturing or industry as there currently at 1997 levels I suggest that the growth you loving and hailing as a recovered economy is coming from yes you guessed it debt, and to be specific that 850 billion the coalition have racked up in five years. Your favourite saying... You can't have it both ways!" Thanks for the lesson in googled economics, but I dont see the relevance to the quoted post. We are not out of the shit by a long way, but we are on the way. Unlike our French cousins who have more unemployment and more food banks - BECAUSE they chose a socialist solution and increased taxes. Oooops..... Where did all the tax receipts go??? | |||
"Are the Tories massaging and manipulating the true facts in order to get re-elected? You reckon that there is some great conspiracy to pay backhanders to the ONS? How would that work if/when government changes? The unemployment figures have been massaged and manipulated for decades. Haven't they? " OK, so what you are saying is that successive governments - first labour and now the coalition are co-ercing the ONS to provide false and/or misleading data?? Come off it. That is one conspiracy theory too far. The BBC get blamed by the right for being left biased, by the left for being right biased and all they are doing in this case is reproducing ONS data sets and stats. | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? YES. All independent data points to Britain being on the up thanks to a focused and determined effort to balance spending cuts and encourage growth. The alternative today had we followed the French and voted in a socialist government would be what the French are suffering today. An economy in meltdown, growing unemployment, widespread public dissent and twice as many food banks as we have in the UK. It may be tough for some people but that will always be the case and always is the case. As the saying goes you can't please all of the people all of the time.. Our debt is almost the same as France, your obsessed with reducing debt which is madness as the system you love and promote requires debt more and more and more it's perpetual debt. The US has more debt than anyone and higher debt to gdp ratio because it's a consumer economy, for consumption you need money, money gets created through debt that's where 95% of a countries currency is created... With debt!. Frances problems lie with the very fact it's not a good consumer economy but has the same debt ratio. If you want less debt you'd have to transform our economy into an exporting one. That my friend is fundamental to your argument!. Now seen as we've been exporting less and less for decades and that 2.4% growth you keep banging on about is not manufacturing or industry as there currently at 1997 levels I suggest that the growth you loving and hailing as a recovered economy is coming from yes you guessed it debt, and to be specific that 850 billion the coalition have racked up in five years. Your favourite saying... You can't have it both ways! Thanks for the lesson in googled economics, but I dont see the relevance to the quoted post. We are not out of the shit by a long way, but we are on the way. Unlike our French cousins who have more unemployment and more food banks - BECAUSE they chose a socialist solution and increased taxes. Oooops..... Where did all the tax receipts go???" . Lol I didn't Google it.... I read books lots of them, you wanna try it sometime. The relevance is you can't have growth without growing debt unless you want to be an exporter, because then your fundamentally importing somebody else's debt. Only last month you posted how great the strength of the pound is, well that's terrible for exporting!. Your favourite saying you can't have it both ways should apply to your own philosophys i presume unless you want to be a champagne socialist  | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? YES. All independent data points to Britain being on the up thanks to a focused and determined effort to balance spending cuts and encourage growth. The alternative today had we followed the French and voted in a socialist government would be what the French are suffering today. An economy in meltdown, growing unemployment, widespread public dissent and twice as many food banks as we have in the UK. It may be tough for some people but that will always be the case and always is the case. As the saying goes you can't please all of the people all of the time.. Our debt is almost the same as France, your obsessed with reducing debt which is madness as the system you love and promote requires debt more and more and more it's perpetual debt. The US has more debt than anyone and higher debt to gdp ratio because it's a consumer economy, for consumption you need money, money gets created through debt that's where 95% of a countries currency is created... With debt!. Frances problems lie with the very fact it's not a good consumer economy but has the same debt ratio. If you want less debt you'd have to transform our economy into an exporting one. That my friend is fundamental to your argument!. Now seen as we've been exporting less and less for decades and that 2.4% growth you keep banging on about is not manufacturing or industry as there currently at 1997 levels I suggest that the growth you loving and hailing as a recovered economy is coming from yes you guessed it debt, and to be specific that 850 billion the coalition have racked up in five years. Your favourite saying... You can't have it both ways! Thanks for the lesson in googled economics, but I dont see the relevance to the quoted post. We are not out of the shit by a long way, but we are on the way. Unlike our French cousins who have more unemployment and more food banks - BECAUSE they chose a socialist solution and increased taxes. Oooops..... Where did all the tax receipts go???. Lol I didn't Google it.... I read books lots of them, you wanna try it sometime. The relevance is you can't have growth without growing debt unless you want to be an exporter, because then your fundamentally importing somebody else's debt. Only last month you posted how great the strength of the pound is, well that's terrible for exporting!. Your favourite saying you can't have it both ways should apply to your own philosophys i presume unless you want to be a champagne socialist "Please dont pick and choose what I said to try to prove a point. I commented about the strength of the pound as being an indicator of the health of the economy. No more, no less. I have no need to have a lesson in exchgange rate fluctuations either thanks. My business is responsive to exchange rate fluctuations so I am acutely aware of how it works. | |||
" The relevance is you can't have growth without growing debt unless you want to be an exporter, because then your fundamentally importing somebody else's debt. " er..right.   | |||
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"Are the Tories massaging and manipulating the true facts in order to get re-elected? You reckon that there is some great conspiracy to pay backhanders to the ONS? How would that work if/when government changes? The unemployment figures have been massaged and manipulated for decades. Haven't they? OK, so what you are saying is that successive governments - first labour and now the coalition are co-ercing the ONS to provide false and/or misleading data?? Come off it. That is one conspiracy theory too far. The BBC get blamed by the right for being left biased, by the left for being right biased and all they are doing in this case is reproducing ONS data sets and stats." Are you seriously saying you are unaware that many tricks have been used by governments to give a false level of the unemployment figures? Seriously?? That this has been done is fact. Not a theory. In the 80s alone the way the unemployment figures are calculated changed, going from memory, 27 times in a decade. Why do you think the governments back then were so keen to get people onto disability rather than have them show up on Unemployment figures? I was amazed to read that you actually believe them! The parameters for who shows on the figures changes regularly. Perhaps that thought might change your idea of what's going on After Disraeli said "There are lies, damned lies and statistics." Sadly some will believe them all! | |||
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"Economists don't seem to think the economy is doing well: The Centre for Macroeconomics, which groups leading economists from Cambridge University, LSE, University College London (UCL), the Bank of England and the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR), polled what it calls its 50 experts on whether the "austerity policies of the coalition government have had a positive effect on aggregate economic activity (employment and GDP) in the UK". Its result was a decisive no. Two-thirds of the 33 economists who responded disagreed or strongly disagreed with the proposition that austerity had been good for the UK." Who's telling the truth?! Agh!! | |||
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"The economy is doing as good as it always does 6 weeks before a general election "touche | |||
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"Of course you can have growth without debt. Depends if the growth is financed from the 'banking system' or purely from reinvestment from profit, assuming it's from a healthy background finances. The fact that most western countries and corporations are operating in debt some people are brainwashed into thinking that's the only way to function." . Money is created through debt, that's how it comes into circulation, so you either have to be an exporting country in which case you can rely on receiving money created through debt by another country or you can't have growth, you can't have growth without expanding the money supply! That's exactly what inflation is in its principal form! You say about profit being reinvested to get growth.... Where do you think the profit came from?. | |||
" The relevance is you can't have growth without growing debt unless you want to be an exporter, because then your fundamentally importing somebody else's debt. er..right. ".They get your goods you get their cash (created through debt). If having no national debt made you the greatest country Russia would be ranked in the top three and the US ranked last.  | |||
"Economists don't seem to think the economy is doing well: The Centre for Macroeconomics, which groups leading economists from Cambridge University, LSE, University College London (UCL), the Bank of England and the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (NIESR), polled what it calls its 50 experts on whether the "austerity policies of the coalition government have had a positive effect on aggregate economic activity (employment and GDP) in the UK". Its result was a decisive no. Two-thirds of the 33 economists who responded disagreed or strongly disagreed with the proposition that austerity had been good for the UK." Those economists are in the pockets of the western financial institutions. They would never say austerity was good or correct as its the opposite to what the banks that wag them want. Such people are no different than the professors/doctors certain drinks company's pay to positively endorse/report on their new fizzy drinks products to be good for us and healthy. | |||
" Money is created through debt, that's how it comes into circulation, so you either have to be an exporting country in which case you can rely on receiving money created through debt by another country or you can't have growth, you can't have growth without expanding the money supply! That's exactly what inflation is in its principal form! " This is such bullshit (especially the last part), you can't just bullshit about it - you have to add more bullshit ABOUT the bullshit, using entirely new bullshit to improve the SAME bullshittery. I can't be in such a fucktard thread. I have a copious amount of work to do today.  | |||
" Money is created through debt, that's how it comes into circulation, so you either have to be an exporting country in which case you can rely on receiving money created through debt by another country or you can't have growth, you can't have growth without expanding the money supply! That's exactly what inflation is in its principal form! This is such bullshit (especially the last part), you can't just bullshit about it - you have to add more bullshit ABOUT the bullshit, using entirely new bullshit to improve the SAME bullshittery. I can't be in such a fucktard thread. I have a copious amount of work to do today. ". Your like all the rest you just turn to name calling once you can't argue against the statement!. You tell me how it comes into creation if not through debt!. | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? " Yes , it'sdoing Iincredibly well | |||
" Money is created through debt, that's how it comes into circulation, so you either have to be an exporting country in which case you can rely on receiving money created through debt by another country or you can't have growth, you can't have growth without expanding the money supply! That's exactly what inflation is in its principal form! This is such bullshit (especially the last part), you can't just bullshit about it - you have to add more bullshit ABOUT the bullshit, using entirely new bullshit to improve the SAME bullshittery. I can't be in such a fucktard thread. I have a copious amount of work to do today. "Far from bullshit. With each $/£ printed/given to the country/govt by the FedRes/BoE comes a debt to that country/govt. The only way or getting any more in the system is if the 'national banks' print more but they cannot unless it's based on borrowing & real economic expansion. As the latter two dont go with austrity or a recession we are where we are. | |||
" Far from bullshit. With each $/£ printed/given to the country/govt by the FedRes/BoE comes a debt to that country/govt. The only way or getting any more in the system is if the 'national banks' print more but they cannot unless it's based on borrowing & real economic expansion. As the latter two dont go with austrity or a recession we are where we are." I agree. What I DON'T agree with is the other poster insinuating you can't have growth without debt. You can. But really we won't. But you're right. As I said above, we are in a false economy because our national debt is just immense. | |||
"Of course you can have growth without debt. Depends if the growth is financed from the 'banking system' or purely from reinvestment from profit, assuming it's from a healthy background finances. The fact that most western countries and corporations are operating in debt some people are brainwashed into thinking that's the only way to function." Yes as I pointed out earlier | |||
" Money is created through debt, that's how it comes into circulation, so you either have to be an exporting country in which case you can rely on receiving money created through debt by another country or you can't have growth, you can't have growth without expanding the money supply! That's exactly what inflation is in its principal form! This is such bullshit (especially the last part), you can't just bullshit about it - you have to add more bullshit ABOUT the bullshit, using entirely new bullshit to improve the SAME bullshittery. I can't be in such a fucktard thread. I have a copious amount of work to do today. .
Your like all the rest you just turn to name calling once you can't argue against the statement!.
You tell me how it comes into creation if not through debt!.
"He may have learned to name call from your very self. | |||
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"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? YES. All independent data points to Britain being on the up thanks to a focused and determined effort to balance spending cuts and encourage growth. The alternative today had we followed the French and voted in a socialist government would be what the French are suffering today. An economy in meltdown, growing unemployment, widespread public dissent and twice as many food banks as we have in the UK. It may be tough for some people but that will always be the case and always is the case. As the saying goes you can't please all of the people all of the time.. Our debt is almost the same as France, your obsessed with reducing debt which is madness as the system you love and promote requires debt more and more and more it's perpetual debt. The US has more debt than anyone and higher debt to gdp ratio because it's a consumer economy, for consumption you need money, money gets created through debt that's where 95% of a countries currency is created... With debt!. Frances problems lie with the very fact it's not a good consumer economy but has the same debt ratio. If you want less debt you'd have to transform our economy into an exporting one. That my friend is fundamental to your argument!. Now seen as we've been exporting less and less for decades and that 2.4% growth you keep banging on about is not manufacturing or industry as there currently at 1997 levels I suggest that the growth you loving and hailing as a recovered economy is coming from yes you guessed it debt, and to be specific that 850 billion the coalition have racked up in five years. Your favourite saying... You can't have it both ways! Thanks for the lesson in googled economics, but I dont see the relevance to the quoted post. We are not out of the shit by a long way, but we are on the way. Unlike our French cousins who have more unemployment and more food banks - BECAUSE they chose a socialist solution and increased taxes. Oooops..... Where did all the tax receipts go???. Lol I didn't Google it.... I read books lots of them, you wanna try it sometime. The relevance is you can't have growth without growing debt unless you want to be an exporter, because then your fundamentally importing somebody else's debt. Only last month you posted how great the strength of the pound is, well that's terrible for exporting!. Your favourite saying you can't have it both ways should apply to your own philosophys i presume unless you want to be a champagne socialist
Please dont pick and choose what I said to try to prove a point. I commented about the strength of the pound as being an indicator of the health of the economy. No more, no less.
I have no need to have a lesson in exchgange rate fluctuations either thanks. My business is responsive to exchange rate fluctuations so I am acutely aware of how it works. "Our vote will cancel out your vote ...simple, no matter how much you bang on about your tory party love the rest of us just see a couple that swallow lies and spin,no ones really that interested and your arguments are simply flawed in every post as they are formed on conservative opinion and nothing else....lets face it ,whoever gets in feather their own nest but the difference being that the tories are the party of the rich who try to buy the votes of the working man with cheap bribes and scare tactics,whereas labour spend whatever is available on housing..hospitals and services. | |||
" Money is created through debt, that's how it comes into circulation, so you either have to be an exporting country in which case you can rely on receiving money created through debt by another country or you can't have growth, you can't have growth without expanding the money supply! That's exactly what inflation is in its principal form! This is such bullshit (especially the last part), you can't just bullshit about it - you have to add more bullshit ABOUT the bullshit, using entirely new bullshit to improve the SAME bullshittery. I can't be in such a fucktard thread. I have a copious amount of work to do today.
Far from bullshit. With each $/£ printed/given to the country/govt by the FedRes/BoE comes a debt to that country/govt.
The only way or getting any more in the system is if the 'national banks' print more but they cannot unless it's based on borrowing & real economic expansion. As the latter two dont go with austrity or a recession we are where we are.". It's even worse than that central banks only create about 10-20% of actual currency, base money ie cash is around 5% of total currency, m2 and m3 currency (the vast majority of money)/ Is created through fractional reserve banking. The banks take 10 million and turn it into 90 million through lending (debt) so they create 80-90% of currency in a country through debt!. That's why were deflationary now because that extra cash there pumping in QE isn't going anywhere, they happen to have a measure for the velocity of money, that's how many hands the cash passes through, for the last few years it's been at record lows! Meaning it's not being borrowed and therefore the currency supply is contracting and that's why we have a strong pound and low inflation....voila as those debt ridden maniacs across the sea would say | |||
" Money is created through debt, that's how it comes into circulation, so you either have to be an exporting country in which case you can rely on receiving money created through debt by another country or you can't have growth, you can't have growth without expanding the money supply! That's exactly what inflation is in its principal form! This is such bullshit (especially the last part), you can't just bullshit about it - you have to add more bullshit ABOUT the bullshit, using entirely new bullshit to improve the SAME bullshittery. I can't be in such a fucktard thread. I have a copious amount of work to do today. .
Your like all the rest you just turn to name calling once you can't argue against the statement!.
You tell me how it comes into creation if not through debt!.
He may have learned to name call from your very self. ". That's only when I'm d*unk sir and 1:30 on wed afternoon is no time to be d*unk.... Or then again | |||
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" Far from bullshit. With each $/£ printed/given to the country/govt by the FedRes/BoE comes a debt to that country/govt. The only way or getting any more in the system is if the 'national banks' print more but they cannot unless it's based on borrowing & real economic expansion. As the latter two dont go with austrity or a recession we are where we are. I agree. What I DON'T agree with is the other poster insinuating you can't have growth without debt. You can. But really we won't. But you're right. As I said above, we are in a false economy because our national debt is just immense. ". China is growing through our debt, if we reduced or debt they wouldn't grow... You can't have growth without increased debt full stop. | |||
"Think we'll avoid the next forum social it would be a bloodbath Guess we'll have to wait a little longer for platinum membership " Probably better to stick to the kick,fuck,pass or name game posts then | |||
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"does it matter who is in power all the parties take the piss and ruin the hard working people.have four kids sign on dole and benefits etc etc .these handouts keep going up ,my wages are down by 15 % in the last 10 yrs.....yes we doing great.....protest vote for me ukip" Why not Green? They at least would try and help you if they got power. Why UKIP? They are open about cuts to government spending to help the rich! How will that help you? | |||
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"You'd have to be pretty dozy to trust anything the Tories say about the economy. One only has to cast their mind back as far as..oh, TWO DAYS AGO to remember that hopeless liar Grant Shapps was claiming that a Labour Government would give people an average tax rise of '£3000'...based on made up figures, and then multiplied over an entire five year term rather than the commonly used by everyone else ever one year. So they were purposely trying to make people think that a Labour government would cost people an extra £3000 a year in tax. Of course, the Institute of Fiscal Studies was then required to point out that the more realistic figure was actually a rise of around £100 a year. So you can rely on Tory maths to be around 30 times stray of reality, in any calculation. " the same Grant Shapps who has lied about having another job and who apparently on his website had recomendations from 'people' who seemingly dont exist.. slimy faced git.. | |||
"You'd have to be pretty dozy to trust anything the Tories say about the economy. One only has to cast their mind back as far as..oh, TWO DAYS AGO to remember that hopeless liar Grant Shapps was claiming that a Labour Government would give people an average tax rise of '£3000'...based on made up figures, and then multiplied over an entire five year term rather than the commonly used by everyone else ever one year. So they were purposely trying to make people think that a Labour government would cost people an extra £3000 a year in tax. Of course, the Institute of Fiscal Studies was then required to point out that the more realistic figure was actually a rise of around £100 a year. So you can rely on Tory maths to be around 30 times stray of reality, in any calculation. the same Grant Shapps who has lied about having another job and who apparently on his website had recomendations from 'people' who seemingly dont exist.. slimy faced git.." Don't be mean, he didn't lie, he misremembered. And also forgot which name he was using that day. | |||
"...... Why not Green? They at least would try and help you if they got power. Why UKIP? They are open about cuts to government spending to help the rich! How will that help you? " Therein lies the issue with the political divide in the UK. An assumption that there are "the rich" and the rest of us who need help from a government. A whole segment of society has had aspiration and a desire to succeed beaten out of them by their support for Labour. There would be no point in Labour (or socialism at all) if everyone had a sense of aspiration and a will to succeed in life. The reason that so many successful people vote conservative is because they want to make a success of their lives and not be state dependent or have the state meddling in their lives. State dependancy was always the backbone of Labour support before New Labour came along and Red Ed is now taking Labour back to its roots. It is no surprise that his message is all doom and gloom to fit right in with the negative and fearful attitudes of traditional Labour supporters. The rhetoric is mutually supporting. How sad though that the coutry's tax take is being used as a bribe to keep Labours core supporters devoid of motivation, hope and aspiration. The coutry would be a much better place if aspiration and success were championed by everyone. As it stands at the moment, anyone looking to get on in life and make a success for themselves is just not going to contemplate Labour - they are just too negative. Political leanings aside, I personally think that the labour share of the vote will slide as we approach the election quite simply because the electorate will hear a grass roots labour message being delivered by a champagne socialist. Labour need traditional warhorses again - Tony Benn, John Prescott and the like. These are the people who were really able carry a Labour message. Milliband and Balls are nothing more than opportunist fools and this is what will matter at crunch time. | |||
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" Far from bullshit. With each $/£ printed/given to the country/govt by the FedRes/BoE comes a debt to that country/govt. The only way or getting any more in the system is if the 'national banks' print more but they cannot unless it's based on borrowing & real economic expansion. As the latter two dont go with austrity or a recession we are where we are. I agree. What I DON'T agree with is the other poster insinuating you can't have growth without debt. You can. But really we won't. But you're right. As I said above, we are in a false economy because our national debt is just immense. ". Instead of coming out with a load of words that say nothing like bullshitery, bullshit,I agree but I disagree..., just ask which bit can't you believe about what I wrote and then tell me why you disagree with maybe some factual bits of statements! Like tell me how you think money gets created and how you think you can have growth without more debt?. And then I'll answer your thinking with my thinking with a few facts we might be able to actually debate something! | |||
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"Is the economy stronger? At the moment, probably. The trouble is that is is mainly based on the service and financial sectors which are doing well now but could collapse at any time due to influences on a world wide stage. Manufacturing is the strong base of any economy that does well long term (Germany for example)and that was decimated in the UK by Thatcherism. There is no quick fix, but it is fixable. First step, a new goverment." There is a lot we could learn from Germany, their Supervisory Board structures with employee and union representation, their focus on the long term and continuous investment, and their continuous training and high productivity. | |||
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"...... Therein lies the issue with the political divide in the UK. An assumption that there are "the rich" and the rest of us who need help from a government. A whole segment of society has had aspiration and a desire to succeed beaten out of them by their support for Labour. There would be no point in Labour (or socialism at all) if everyone had a sense of aspiration and a will to succeed in life. The reason that so many successful people vote conservative is because they want to make a success of their lives and not be state dependent or have the state meddling in their lives. State dependancy was always the backbone of Labour support before New Labour came along and Red Ed is now taking Labour back to its roots. It is no surprise that his message is all doom and gloom to fit right in with the negative and fearful attitudes of traditional Labour supporters. The rhetoric is mutually supporting. How sad though that the coutry's tax take is being used as a bribe to keep Labours core supporters devoid of motivation, hope and aspiration. The coutry would be a much better place if aspiration and success were championed by everyone. As it stands at the moment, anyone looking to get on in life and make a success for themselves is just not going to contemplate Labour - they are just too negative. Political leanings aside, I personally think that the labour share of the vote will slide as we approach the election quite simply because the electorate will hear a grass roots labour message being delivered by a champagne socialist. Labour need traditional warhorses again - Tony Benn, John Prescott and the like. These are the people who were really able carry a Labour message. Milliband and Balls are nothing more than opportunist fools and this is what will matter at crunch time." Really... Funny how one Mr Winston Churchill said that when the country was in need then the rich had to pay the most because they could afford the most... I wonder when the Tories decided that that no longer applied... Probably round about the same time they decided that the country could do without an effective Navy, Army, Air Force and Police Force in favour of giving the super rich tax cuts while cutting benefits to the poorest in our country. | |||
"...... Therein lies the issue with the political divide in the UK. An assumption that there are "the rich" and the rest of us who need help from a government. A whole segment of society has had aspiration and a desire to succeed beaten out of them by their support for Labour. There would be no point in Labour (or socialism at all) if everyone had a sense of aspiration and a will to succeed in life. The reason that so many successful people vote conservative is because they want to make a success of their lives and not be state dependent or have the state meddling in their lives. State dependancy was always the backbone of Labour support before New Labour came along and Red Ed is now taking Labour back to its roots. It is no surprise that his message is all doom and gloom to fit right in with the negative and fearful attitudes of traditional Labour supporters. The rhetoric is mutually supporting. How sad though that the coutry's tax take is being used as a bribe to keep Labours core supporters devoid of motivation, hope and aspiration. The coutry would be a much better place if aspiration and success were championed by everyone. As it stands at the moment, anyone looking to get on in life and make a success for themselves is just not going to contemplate Labour - they are just too negative. Political leanings aside, I personally think that the labour share of the vote will slide as we approach the election quite simply because the electorate will hear a grass roots labour message being delivered by a champagne socialist. Labour need traditional warhorses again - Tony Benn, John Prescott and the like. These are the people who were really able carry a Labour message. Milliband and Balls are nothing more than opportunist fools and this is what will matter at crunch time. Really... Funny how one Mr Winston Churchill said that when the country was in need then the rich had to pay the most because they could afford the most... I wonder when the Tories decided that that no longer applied... Probably round about the same time they decided that the country could do without an effective Navy, Army, Air Force and Police Force in favour of giving the super rich tax cuts while cutting benefits to the poorest in our country." Who says that rich people don't pay tax? Even on a flat rate of income tax - the more you earn, the more you pay. Add in a higher rate and the punishment for being successful increases to the point where you wonder why it is worth bothering. I read somewhere that the total tax take is always around 35% of GDP no matter who pays what. Under Labour the tax rates tend to increase, but GDP falls and so less people pay. Under conservative governments tax rates get reduced but GDP increases and more people actually pay but a lesser amount. It is all really a play on emotions but ultimately the country has to be better off with a higher GDP and more people actually paying tax - albeit a lesser amount. Labour just can't help themselves playing the victim card with their traditional supporters and "hitting the rich" is music to their ears even though it does not actually raise any more revenue - more often than not it reduces the actual tax take (as happened in France just recently). | |||
"...... Funny how one Mr Winston Churchill said that when the country was in need then the rich had to pay the most because they could afford the most... I wonder when the Tories decided that that no longer applied... ......." I recall an ONS report last year: " Britain's highest earners pay more than a quarter of the country’s entire income tax bill, more than when the Coalition came to power. Nearly 300,000 taxpayers are forecast to contribute the equivalent of £45.9? billion in income tax between them by the end of this year, equivalent to £150,000 each. The amount they have paid has risen from 25 per cent of the nation’s tax bill when Labour came to power to 27.3 per cent this year. " So it appears that "the rich" do indeed pay more than they did under Labour. Funny how facts can be so inconvenient at times | |||
"...... Funny how one Mr Winston Churchill said that when the country was in need then the rich had to pay the most because they could afford the most... I wonder when the Tories decided that that no longer applied... ....... I recall an ONS report last year: " Britain's highest earners pay more than a quarter of the country’s entire income tax bill, more than when the Coalition came to power. Nearly 300,000 taxpayers are forecast to contribute the equivalent of £45.9? billion in income tax between them by the end of this year, equivalent to £150,000 each. The amount they have paid has risen from 25 per cent of the nation’s tax bill when Labour came to power to 27.3 per cent this year. " So it appears that "the rich" do indeed pay more than they did under Labour. Funny how facts can be so inconvenient at times "I agree! I'm nowhere near a 45% tax payer, but I earn a very decent salary. I pay the vast majority of my salary at 40% tax, I pay approx 12% in NI. I then also pay 20% (like everyone else) on purchases. i do pay my fair share, and pay more than someone earning average salary. I work damn hard (as does everyone else), I have spent the years doing the training and the qualifications to get my position, so why is it unfair that I earn more, and then be hit with further potential tax bills.... I am already paying more in aggregate. | |||
"...... Funny how one Mr Winston Churchill said that when the country was in need then the rich had to pay the most because they could afford the most... I wonder when the Tories decided that that no longer applied... ....... I recall an ONS report last year: " Britain's highest earners pay more than a quarter of the country’s entire income tax bill, more than when the Coalition came to power. Nearly 300,000 taxpayers are forecast to contribute the equivalent of £45.9? billion in income tax between them by the end of this year, equivalent to £150,000 each. The amount they have paid has risen from 25 per cent of the nation’s tax bill when Labour came to power to 27.3 per cent this year. " So it appears that "the rich" do indeed pay more than they did under Labour. Funny how facts can be so inconvenient at times
I agree!
I'm nowhere near a 45% tax payer, but I earn a very decent salary. I pay the vast majority of my salary at 40% tax, I pay approx 12% in NI. I then also pay 20% (like everyone else) on purchases.
i do pay my fair share, and pay more than someone earning average salary. I work damn hard (as does everyone else), I have spent the years doing the training and the qualifications to get my position, so why is it unfair that I earn more, and then be hit with further potential tax bills.... I am already paying more in aggregate.
"Because you are the very epitomy of what Labour fear. You have worked hard, strived for financial success and security and therefore no longer need the state to depend on. If more were like you, there would be no need for Labour. What is the point of Labour if the country was filled with determined and aspirational people like you? No point, they would have no raison d'etre. | |||
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"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? " It's all lies, damned lies and statistics...twisted in whichever direction the government wants you to believe in at any particular time, and subject to change at the drop of an MPs expense account form. | |||
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"That's why I look at it from my perspective. Labour in power means slowly but surely disappearing round the toilet bend. Labour out of power I can just about keep my head above water and churn around with all the other turds LOL." Brings a whole new meaning to the term "floating voter"! | |||
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"awwwwwwwww mate. You spotted the opportunity and went for it. Brilliant "I'm here all week!! | |||
"...... Why not Green? They at least would try and help you if they got power. Why UKIP? They are open about cuts to government spending to help the rich! How will that help you? Therein lies the issue with the political divide in the UK. An assumption that there are "the rich" and the rest of us who need help from a government. A whole segment of society has had aspiration and a desire to succeed beaten out of them by their support for Labour. There would be no point in Labour (or socialism at all) if everyone had a sense of aspiration and a will to succeed in life. The reason that so many successful people vote conservative is because they want to make a success of their lives and not be state dependent or have the state meddling in their lives. State dependancy was always the backbone of Labour support before New Labour came along and Red Ed is now taking Labour back to its roots. It is no surprise that his message is all doom and gloom to fit right in with the negative and fearful attitudes of traditional Labour supporters. The rhetoric is mutually supporting. How sad though that the coutry's tax take is being used as a bribe to keep Labours core supporters devoid of motivation, hope and aspiration. The coutry would be a much better place if aspiration and success were championed by everyone. As it stands at the moment, anyone looking to get on in life and make a success for themselves is just not going to contemplate Labour - they are just too negative. Political leanings aside, I personally think that the labour share of the vote will slide as we approach the election quite simply because the electorate will hear a grass roots labour message being delivered by a champagne socialist. Labour need traditional warhorses again - Tony Benn, John Prescott and the like. These are the people who were really able carry a Labour message. Milliband and Balls are nothing more than opportunist fools and this is what will matter at crunch time." So there are no entrepreneur's or successful businesses owned or run by people who support labour..? and folks who have voted in the past are devoid of aspiration, will to succeed etc etc.. complete nonsense and generalisation on a massive scale.. allied to your 'anyone who isn't shouting from the rooftops that its all rosy' is a whinger and no one is allowed to point out any of the mistakes that the current lot have done lest that makes them a perpetual moaner is also twaddle.. | |||
"...... Why not Green? They at least would try and help you if they got power. Why UKIP? They are open about cuts to government spending to help the rich! How will that help you? Therein lies the issue with the political divide in the UK. An assumption that there are "the rich" and the rest of us who need help from a government. A whole segment of society has had aspiration and a desire to succeed beaten out of them by their support for Labour. There would be no point in Labour (or socialism at all) if everyone had a sense of aspiration and a will to succeed in life. The reason that so many successful people vote conservative is because they want to make a success of their lives and not be state dependent or have the state meddling in their lives. State dependancy was always the backbone of Labour support before New Labour came along and Red Ed is now taking Labour back to its roots. It is no surprise that his message is all doom and gloom to fit right in with the negative and fearful attitudes of traditional Labour supporters. The rhetoric is mutually supporting. How sad though that the coutry's tax take is being used as a bribe to keep Labours core supporters devoid of motivation, hope and aspiration. The coutry would be a much better place if aspiration and success were championed by everyone. As it stands at the moment, anyone looking to get on in life and make a success for themselves is just not going to contemplate Labour - they are just too negative. Political leanings aside, I personally think that the labour share of the vote will slide as we approach the election quite simply because the electorate will hear a grass roots labour message being delivered by a champagne socialist. Labour need traditional warhorses again - Tony Benn, John Prescott and the like. These are the people who were really able carry a Labour message. Milliband and Balls are nothing more than opportunist fools and this is what will matter at crunch time. So there are no entrepreneur's or successful businesses owned or run by people who support labour..? and folks who have voted in the past are devoid of aspiration, will to succeed etc etc.. complete nonsense and generalisation on a massive scale.. allied to your 'anyone who isn't shouting from the rooftops that its all rosy' is a whinger and no one is allowed to point out any of the mistakes that the current lot have done lest that makes them a perpetual moaner is also twaddle.. " Of course it is a generalisation, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule. It is a pretty obvious divide that naturally associates itself with the likely voting base now that Milliband has taken Labour back to its roots. Labour = big government, higher taxes, state dependancy. These are naturally associated with people who rely on the state for day to day living and these are the core voters. Conservative = smaller government, lower taxes, promotes individual responsibility. These are naturally associated with people who are more aspirational and who want to get on life. Yes, this is a generalisation but broadly speaking it is the fundamentals that divide the two and of course there will be exceptions. | |||
" And then I'll answer your thinking with my thinking with a few facts we might be able to actually debate something!" No. Because you're impossible to converse with.  | |||
" And then I'll answer your thinking with my thinking with a few facts we might be able to actually debate something! No. Because you're impossible to converse with. ". Ahh so I'm impossible to converse with, but you feel the need to shout bullshit with impunity! Without a counter a argument.. When the seagulls follow the trawler.... | |||
" And then I'll answer your thinking with my thinking with a few facts we might be able to actually debate something! No. Because you're impossible to converse with. .
Ahh so I'm impossible to converse with, but you feel the need to shout bullshit with impunity!
Without a counter a argument..
When the seagulls follow the trawler.... "I'm with you sexy bum! The economy is fucked! The full effect won't be seen till after the next election. God help us all | |||
" And then I'll answer your thinking with my thinking with a few facts we might be able to actually debate something! No. Because you're impossible to converse with. .
Ahh so I'm impossible to converse with, but you feel the need to shout bullshit with impunity!
Without a counter a argument..
When the seagulls follow the trawler....
I'm with you sexy bum! The economy is fucked! The full effect won't be seen till after the next election. God help us all". I really don't mean to be mean, I don't honestly. The system we have is driven by perpetual growth, lots of people are really misunderstood about what that means and how we achieve it. Growth either comes at somebody else's downfall or through perpetual debt, the real question anybody should ask themselves, is have I got enough already.... This question goes against capitalism where you can never have enough!. Humans are at heart lovely people, it's in our nature to be kind and look after the weak, Darwin proved this with his book, where he proclaimed chapter after chapter that humans flourish while working together.... It makes you wonder when science proves we work better together, why we have a system that constantly sperates us, _oo hot for all his right wing bollocks is just like me and you, he strives to improve his life and look after his genes, perfectly natural human behaviour. What he in my opinion fails to appreciate is that he's being manipulated by the system everyday constantly as we all are. Greed is good, selfishness is good, sloth is good, envy is good, lust is good.... I'm not religious as you might know but, They didn't call them the seven deadly sins for nothing?. Capitalism is based on these sins, charity is like the anecdote for the evil, like putting the cure for paracetamol in paracetamol it's the human equivalent... Earn billions give to charity, it's the Carthage of the soul.... I'm really good honestly... Look at my charity work... You can't have growth without somebody going into debt that's just a fact of life, regardless of what somebody might shout bullshitery. They really really don't understand the system we live under. That doesn't mean I'm for or against I'm just telling you the way it is. I'm right wing or left wing to many, I'm really just me, if you really think that letting 7 million people into a country won't cause a baby boom like what we're in now... You really need to look at the stats, does that mean I hate polish people... Some will say yes obviously I'm a bigot, no I'm just telling you the facts, like multicultralisim, were the oldest free culture in history, we've been through drinking, smoking, wife beating, sexism, homophobia, religion and come out the other side.... How an earth can I learn from cultures that still pertain to all those faults that we've spent 500 years getting rid off, I can't and neither can you, what we can learn from is the culture of south american Indians who clearly see the stupidity of our own folly or the Arab springs that seek democracy, the plight of Palestinians without a home.... you can't have growth without costs, you want to grow the population like your government did... You have to pay for it... Growth doesn't pay for itself, never has and never will. People like this bullshit of left and right it provides them with comfort that their beliefs mean something.... It doesn't it's bollocks, now tomorrow I'm going to Lancashire to meet some fellow anti trackers, this belief is born from facts, it's bad, it's certainly not proven good and really we don't need it, we have in our power the ability to move from hydrocarbons to more sustainability if we just can let go off this myth of money!!!. And really at the crux of it, it's utter bollocks, 99% of people on this forum don't even know how it's created let alone distributed. Don't feel bad, they don't wish you to know, don't expect a bbc documentary anytime soon on the facts of monetary policy!. They keep it that way through apathy and idiocy, that statement provokes anger as it appears I'm putting myself above others, and in a way I am, I've taken months and years reading listening and attending lectures to come to my realisation, but and it's a big but, you really really really have to seek it out yourself, they certainly aint going to offer it you!. | |||
"...... Because you are the very epitomy of what Labour fear. You have worked hard, strived for financial success and security and therefore no longer need the state to depend on. If more were like you, there would be no need for Labour. What is the point of Labour if the country was filled with determined and aspirational people like you? No point, they would have no raison d'etre." The country IS filled with determined and aspirational people. Financial gain has fuck all to do with either of these things!!!!!!!! Come watch Mrs S play wheelchair rugby or a couple of our friends ride bikes around europe to raise money for charities NOT themselves.Watch a child carer or an OAP look after their partner. Then watch as a fair proportion of these people get fucked by a govt that has sweeping generalizations about health and welfare. If it hasnt/doesnt affect you its funny how your head is in the sand about how good everything is! And sexybum.....green party brighton bad!! Green party transport policy for motorcycles..bad LGV bad parking bad disabled bad I dont trust any one of the lying thieving manipulative self obsessed ego driven tossers. Come down to where the real people live and it aint changed much in 15 years. And that has been as a business owner who relies predominantly on fuel, which has fuck all to do with whichever govt is in! | |||
"Yep as some of you have pointed out the tories look after the rich, and labour the working class,well they used to before blair and the champagne socialists got in they were happy to drink in the same lounge as the bankers until it went tits up after all the bankers were supplying them with money borrowing was at 7.7 billion a year in 1997 when they left in 2010 it was 124 billion a year, it was labour that closed down a lot of manufacturing when in power because they thought we could as a country rely on banking and the services sector and import everything from the east, hence the shit of low manufacturing output today and not getting more growth,how many times.have you heard people say,we dont make nothing in this country anymore?on top of that they allowed a flood of immigration which has kept wages down and way to much pressure on our hospitals and infrastructure so i am still not convinced they will get it better this time round i notice people harp on about the tories building up the debt even further where do you think the money has come from to pay for the wind turbines, solar panels, roads,rail ,the nhs yes, we borrow money but the old adage is you speculate to accumulate as we are technically as a country mega skint. as for the public sector, yes they do a brill job nurses, firefighters etc and we cant do without them but unfortunately we are basically borrowing money to pay their wages not ideal but anyone remember the note left in the treasury that there was no money left? Well we were close to bankrupt then every one of us and i dont want to see that happen again the economy though not perfect is a lot better than five years ago and nothing at the moment convinces me that ed balls and ed milliband can run the country as they helped create the mess under gordon brown " We are borrowing money to pay Nurses and Firefighters! Well at least they are spending it in the UK creating more employment..Don't forget we are also borrowing money to give to other countries overseas in 'Aid', if only it got to the ones that really need it rather than bribe/prop up corrupt foreign leaders | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? YES. All independent data points to Britain being on the up thanks to a focused and determined effort to balance spending cuts and encourage growth. The alternative today had we followed the French and voted in a socialist government would be what the French are suffering today. An economy in meltdown, growing unemployment, widespread public dissent and twice as many food banks as we have in the UK. It may be tough for some people but that will always be the case and always is the case. As the saying goes you can't please all of the people all of the time." Well when comes to this independent data, you can interpret that anyway you want and stick anywhere you want. A upturn in the economy caused by an increase in house values due to this help to buy ponzi schemes and artificially low interests rates needs to be totally ignored. There is a massive difference between France and Britain they still have a manufacturing base, they are in a position to benefit from any real upturn and can create skilled meaningful jobs, that pay real money and of course buy French goods. | |||
"Yep as some of you have pointed out the tories look after the rich, and labour the working class,well they used to before blair and the champagne socialists got in they were happy to drink in the same lounge as the bankers until it went tits up after all the bankers were supplying them with money borrowing was at 7.7 billion a year in 1997 when they left in 2010 it was 124 billion a year, it was labour that closed down a lot of manufacturing when in power because they thought we could as a country rely on banking and the services sector and import everything from the east, hence the shit of low manufacturing output today and not getting more growth,how many times.have you heard people say,we dont make nothing in this country anymore?on top of that they allowed a flood of immigration which has kept wages down and way to much pressure on our hospitals and infrastructure so i am still not convinced they will get it better this time round i notice people harp on about the tories building up the debt even further where do you think the money has come from to pay for the wind turbines, solar panels, roads,rail ,the nhs yes, we borrow money but the old adage is you speculate to accumulate as we are technically as a country mega skint. as for the public sector, yes they do a brill job nurses, firefighters etc and we cant do without them but unfortunately we are basically borrowing money to pay their wages not ideal but anyone remember the note left in the treasury that there was no money left? Well we were close to bankrupt then every one of us and i dont want to see that happen again the economy though not perfect is a lot better than five years ago and nothing at the moment convinces me that ed balls and ed milliband can run the country as they helped create the mess under gordon brown We are borrowing money to pay Nurses and Firefighters! Well at least they are spending it in the UK creating more employment..Don't forget we are also borrowing money to give to other countries overseas in 'Aid', if only it got to the ones that really need it rather than bribe/prop up corrupt foreign leaders " I wasnt in anyway having a go at nurses firefighters etc at the country having to borrow to pay their wages it was stating the amount of money we borrow to pay for essential services as the country is skint and i agree with you on the foreign aid 12 billion a year would help a lot to us if we didnt give it out its like another poster said the government whichever is in power feel the need to do this to make themselves feel better it wouldnt be so bad if the people it was meant for actually got it | |||
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" And then I'll answer your thinking with my thinking with a few facts we might be able to actually debate something! No. Because you're impossible to converse with. .
Ahh so I'm impossible to converse with, but you feel the need to shout bullshit with impunity!
Without a counter a argument..
When the seagulls follow the trawler....
I'm with you sexy bum! The economy is fucked! The full effect won't be seen till after the next election. God help us all.
I really don't mean to be mean, I don't honestly.
The system we have is driven by perpetual growth, lots of people are really misunderstood about what that means and how we achieve it.
Growth either comes at somebody else's downfall or through perpetual debt, the real question anybody should ask themselves, is have I got enough already.... This question goes against capitalism where you can never have enough!.
Humans are at heart lovely people, it's in our nature to be kind and look after the weak, Darwin proved this with his book, where he proclaimed chapter after chapter that humans flourish while working together.... It makes you wonder when science proves we work better together, why we have a system that constantly sperates us, _oo hot for all his right wing bollocks is just like me and you, he strives to improve his life and look after his genes, perfectly natural human behaviour.
What he in my opinion fails to appreciate is that he's being manipulated by the system everyday constantly as we all are.
Greed is good, selfishness is good, sloth is good, envy is good, lust is good.... I'm not religious as you might know but, They didn't call them the seven deadly sins for nothing?.
Capitalism is based on these sins, charity is like the anecdote for the evil, like putting the cure for paracetamol in paracetamol it's the human equivalent... Earn billions give to charity, it's the Carthage of the soul.... I'm really good honestly... Look at my charity work... You can't have growth without somebody going into debt that's just a fact of life, regardless of what somebody might shout bullshitery.
They really really don't understand the system we live under.
That doesn't mean I'm for or against I'm just telling you the way it is.
I'm right wing or left wing to many, I'm really just me, if you really think that letting 7 million people into a country won't cause a baby boom like what we're in now... You really need to look at the stats, does that mean I hate polish people... Some will say yes obviously I'm a bigot, no I'm just telling you the facts, like multicultralisim, were the oldest free culture in history, we've been through drinking, smoking, wife beating, sexism, homophobia, religion and come out the other side.... How an earth can I learn from cultures that still pertain to all those faults that we've spent 500 years getting rid off, I can't and neither can you, what we can learn from is the culture of south american Indians who clearly see the stupidity of our own folly or the Arab springs that seek democracy, the plight of Palestinians without a home....
you can't have growth without costs, you want to grow the population like your government did... You have to pay for it... Growth doesn't pay for itself, never has and never will.
People like this bullshit of left and right it provides them with comfort that their beliefs mean something.... It doesn't it's bollocks, now tomorrow I'm going to Lancashire to meet some fellow anti trackers, this belief is born from facts, it's bad, it's certainly not proven good and really we don't need it, we have in our power the ability to move from hydrocarbons to more sustainability if we just can let go off this myth of money!!!.
And really at the crux of it, it's utter bollocks, 99% of people on this forum don't even know how it's created let alone distributed.
Don't feel bad, they don't wish you to know, don't expect a bbc documentary anytime soon on the facts of monetary policy!. They keep it that way through apathy and idiocy, that statement provokes anger as it appears I'm putting myself above others, and in a way I am, I've taken months and years reading listening and attending lectures to come to my realisation, but and it's a big but, you really really really have to seek it out yourself, they certainly aint going to offer it you!.
"
Careful now....they will be calling you a Marxist next. Its a simple idea really. There is only ever a certain amount of food/oil/gold(put in whatever you want here). For someone to gain, someone has to lose. What's hard to understand? Too many people concentrating on the complexities in the middle to see the big picture. Its sleight of hand that any conman would be proud of. | |||
"Yep as some of you have pointed out the tories look after the rich, and labour the working class,well they used to before blair and the champagne socialists got in they were happy to drink in the same lounge as the bankers until it went tits up after all the bankers were supplying them with money borrowing was at 7.7 billion a year in 1997 when they left in 2010 it was 124 billion a year, it was labour that closed down a lot of manufacturing when in power because they thought we could as a country rely on banking and the services sector and import everything from the east, hence the shit of low manufacturing output today and not getting more growth,how many times.have you heard people say,we dont make nothing in this country anymore?on top of that they allowed a flood of immigration which has kept wages down and way to much pressure on our hospitals and infrastructure so i am still not convinced they will get it better this time round i notice people harp on about the tories building up the debt even further where do you think the money has come from to pay for the wind turbines, solar panels, roads,rail ,the nhs yes, we borrow money but the old adage is you speculate to accumulate as we are technically as a country mega skint. as for the public sector, yes they do a brill job nurses, firefighters etc and we cant do without them but unfortunately we are basically borrowing money to pay their wages not ideal but anyone remember the note left in the treasury that there was no money left? Well we were close to bankrupt then every one of us and i dont want to see that happen again the economy though not perfect is a lot better than five years ago and nothing at the moment convinces me that ed balls and ed milliband can run the country as they helped create the mess under gordon brown We are borrowing money to pay Nurses and Firefighters! Well at least they are spending it in the UK creating more employment..Don't forget we are also borrowing money to give to other countries overseas in 'Aid', if only it got to the ones that really need it rather than bribe/prop up corrupt foreign leaders " . That's a very interesting point. I once read a very good book called dead aid written by an African woman, unfortunately I can't remember her name, but it was interesting because she pointed out the complete lack of any use at all with foreign aid, in fact in the 40 years she covered in the book, literally the massive number which was like 2 trillion dollars in aid Africa had received had only served to make the situations worse, the aid almost always was put into things that the giver had thought the best solution, nobody ever asked the Africans about how to spend it and nearly always it exasperated problems. She came to the conclusion Africa would be much better off left to it's own devices and this ideology is widely excepted in Africa. So it begs the question why do greedy politicians from around the world seek to cut everything in every budget but rarely cut foreign aid, the truth is the aid is there because massive amounts is sliced off into business interests of the political parties and actually on a whole helps to maintain the status quo of us being over them, are growth comes from their poverty!. If I think about it the main parties disagree on everything except a few points Immigration Nuclear weapons Foreign aid The EU These key points are a sign off our power over others. We can steal your youth and trained workers. We have permanent status on the security council insuring the right to veto any policy that doesn't suit us. We keep the poor poor with the pretence of charity. Bigger government is easier to hide your skull duggery. The Tories fundamentally like small government but are all in favour of a great big eu government!! Labour are a party of the people but undermine them with mass immigration!!! The fact of the matter is they both need each other and each other keeps the other in a job!. Changing from one to the other never changes anything, they merely tinker around the edges anyhow. The system needs root and branch reform and that requires you to be brave and go with the unknown. If you think that successive governments who create successive problems are somehow now going to solve the problems they created.. Well if you think that, there's no helping you. | |||
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"I'm confused. Ideologically conservatives are against big government, therefore they are against spending swathes of the public's cash. Individual responsibility and all that. But they've spent so much. We're in greater debt now than ever. Is it me or have we simply borrowed ourselves out of trouble...? Deferred it for future governments to use it as an excuse for bonkers decisions made on behalf of a bemused electorate...? Isn't this what the banks were doing...spending money they didn't have? Isn't this what homeowners were in effect doing when applying for mortgages...? In defence of homeowners, the stress tests applied by mortgage providers were so weak that they probably didn't have a clue what they were doing...and the banks probably had a hunch that they'd be rescued... What a strange situation... Celebrating the fact we've spent tomorrow's money creating jobs that hardly pay. I've just read that around 11000 teachers didn't even set foot into a classroom following there training...and almost 30% leave after a year... I'm surprised the other leaders didn't really bring up the debt and deficit situation during the debates." . Politics is all slight of hand. Most peoples beliefs are usually nothing like truth. Margret Thatcher never cut a single department budget despite the widely held belief. The Tories always bang on about small government but always leave office with bigger government! Labour are perceived to always spend massively but in fact spent nearly a third less in ten years then the others spent in five. They regulate every part of your life but deregulate every institution that shouldn't be! It's not incompetency or stupidity, it's deliberate, they didn't accidentally let in 7 million immigrants! They didn't stupidly think oh that gold looks low at the moment I think we might still that 400 tonnes we've got lying around! And the Tories haven't accidentally spent 800 billion buying 20-40 billion of growth!. But give it ten minutes somebody will be along with that exact statement. | |||
"I'm confused. I'm surprised the other leaders didn't really bring up the debt and deficit situation during the debates." ..... First rule of politics. Never mention a problem you have no solutions for | |||
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"I'm confused. Ideologically conservatives are against big government, therefore they are against spending swathes of the public's cash. Individual responsibility and all that. But they've spent so much. We're in greater debt now than ever. Is it me or have we simply borrowed ourselves out of trouble...? Deferred it for future governments to use it as an excuse for bonkers decisions made on behalf of a bemused electorate...? Isn't this what the banks were doing...spending money they didn't have? Isn't this what homeowners were in effect doing when applying for mortgages...? In defence of homeowners, the stress tests applied by mortgage providers were so weak that they probably didn't have a clue what they were doing...and the banks probably had a hunch that they'd be rescued... What a strange situation... Celebrating the fact we've spent tomorrow's money creating jobs that hardly pay. I've just read that around 11000 teachers didn't even set foot into a classroom following there training...and almost 30% leave after a year... I'm surprised the other leaders didn't really bring up the debt and deficit situation during the debates.. Politics is all slight of hand. Most peoples beliefs are usually nothing like truth. Margret Thatcher never cut a single department budget despite the widely held belief. The Tories always bang on about small government but always leave office with bigger government! Labour are perceived to always spend massively but in fact spent nearly a third less in ten years then the others spent in five. They regulate every part of your life but deregulate every institution that shouldn't be! It's not incompetency or stupidity, it's deliberate, they didn't accidentally let in 7 million immigrants! They didn't stupidly think oh that gold looks low at the moment I think we might still that 400 tonnes we've got lying around! And the Tories haven't accidentally spent 800 billion buying 20-40 billion of growth!. But give it ten minutes somebody will be along with that exact statement." Indeed. Glad I haven't gotten the wrong end of the stick...shitty as it appears to be. Party politics appears to be a facade. Scripted. A soap opera. Every x number of years we're given a remote control and the choice between a handful of crappy channels which mostly show repeats. Like Dave but with junk. And then we're all stuck on that crap channel for the next x years moaning about how poor the programming is. Only for the cycle to be repeated. The idea of democracy, voting and choosing representatives is a good one. It's empowering. Yet, I've just had my proverbial remote control come through the door this morning....and I feel helpless...disappointed. I don't want to watch the telly anymore. It's bad for my spirit. | |||
"As a tradesman i can say in the first few months of this year people have really started to spend money on their houses, my opinion is the economy may not be doing any better but there's more confidance in the state of the economy" I'll second that. In my business, I've noticed a peak in companies increasing their marketing budgets. We're up 22% from last year so things are looking good. | |||
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" And the purposefully low interest rates are skewing the economic reality. " As is the massive almost socialist-esque amount of borrowing the conservative led coalition has done - I imagine. | |||
" And the purposefully low interest rates are skewing the economic reality. As is the massive almost socialist-esque amount of borrowing the conservative led coalition has done - I imagine. " Well that's the opposite, there's nothing of that economic reality that's skewed. It's on the books to see. But it'll be interesting to see what happens when interest rates are no longer suppressed. | |||
"I think everyone is missing the point that the country's budget deficit is now 1.5 TRILLION pounds....... thats a tad over 80% higher than when DC became prime minister. .......the country is fucked by tax evading multi nationals, hedge funds and the upper class loving government. And before anyone slags me off.....google it.....1.5 Trillion is accurate. " The deficit is not the national debt
The deficit is falling, but it will be at least 5 years before it is gone even by the most optimistic forecast. So for the foreseeable future it looks like we are stuck with enormous interest payments on a national debt that will take decades, if not centuries to repay.  | |||
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"There is no doubt mone will always buy power and influence, such power and influence to be used to the benefit of those who have money and as such perpetuating the status quo." . You know what will be the end of capitalism..... Debt, when that goes tits up, there'll be no capital left for capitalism. Buy now pay later.. You know why that exists?, because we maxed out growth on real terms, now they have to lend us money we don't have to buy shit we don't need. And the truth is if that ever stops as a country were fucked and China is kicking it's heels.. That's why they keep buying our shitty bonds. The real problems have just surfaced in the last few years and that's the Chinese trade deals that don't involve using dollars! And consumer markets developing in the far East.... Once they have their own market... Were well and truly fucked! | |||
"I think everyone is missing the point that the country's budget deficit is now 1.5 TRILLION pounds....... thats a tad over 80% higher than when DC became prime minister. .......the country is fucked by tax evading multi nationals, hedge funds and the upper class loving government. And before anyone slags me off.....google it.....1.5 Trillion is accurate. So? I assume you are also aware that the majority of the national debt is money we owe ourselves? Not other people. I love the way that everyone picks the bits out that they wish to. Can someone please say 'this is the alternative' Sexy bum? you may be a Marxist but you need to convince everyone else that 'having the same' will work, and you are working uphill now with the failure of the majority of marxist planned economies. For me, we are stuck with capitalism, its an awaful system but it runs with the competitive human nature. Unless someone decides to come up with a better system or we invent fusion power and therefore have unlimited energy. The deficit is not the national debt
The deficit is falling, but it will be at least 5 years before it is gone even by the most optimistic forecast. So for the foreseeable future it looks like we are stuck with enormous interest payments on a national debt that will take decades, if not centuries to repay. " | |||
" And before anyone slags me off.....google it.....1.5 Trillion is accurate. So? I assume you are also aware that the majority of the national debt is money we owe ourselves? Not other people. I love the way that everyone picks the bits out that they wish to. Can someone please say 'this is the alternative' Sexy bum? you may be a Marxist but you need to convince everyone else that 'having the same' will work, and you are working uphill now with the failure of the majority of marxist planned economies. For me, we are stuck with capitalism, its an awaful system but it runs with the competitive human nature. Unless someone decides to come up with a better system or we invent fusion power and therefore have unlimited energy. The deficit is not the national debt
The deficit is falling, but it will be at least 5 years before it is gone even by the most optimistic forecast. So for the foreseeable future it looks like we are stuck with enormous interest payments on a national debt that will take decades, if not centuries to repay. " | |||
" And before anyone slags me off.....google it.....1.5 Trillion is accurate. So? I assume you are also aware that the majority of the national debt is money we owe ourselves? Not other people. I love the way that everyone picks the bits out that they wish to. Can someone please say 'this is the alternative' Sexy bum? you may be a Marxist but you need to convince everyone else that 'having the same' will work, and you are working uphill now with the failure of the majority of marxist planned economies. For me, we are stuck with capitalism, its an awaful system but it runs with the competitive human nature. Unless someone decides to come up with a better system or we invent fusion power and therefore have unlimited energy. " | |||
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"Every single Marxist planned economy was run by mad men. That's hardly the fault of a system!. Nearly all the capitalist countries are run by mad men, just like they fucked up a Marxist driven economy.... There'll fuck this one up too... Because there mad!. I'm all for capitalism.... But we've not got capitalism!. The system were currently running on has more akin to debt management than capitalism!. Karl Marx took the angle that states were run in the national interest of the ruling classes and against the workers!. Nobody's proved him wrong as far as I can see." I concur. Can certainly see a change to our capitalist system being needed - though the money men and power brokers will be the last to see it. Many think we are just experiencing another cycle in the boom/bust economic cycle which we have seen for generations. Personally I doubt it: I think we are seeing a shift of money and power from the West to the East, most obviously to China and India. I suspect we are living on borrowed time, as we were prior to the banking crisis of 2008. Hopefully I'm wrong but the stagnation in Europe and the West is contrary to the BS governments are telling us: ultimately only the richest are profiting while the rest of us look nervously over our shoulders. If wealth isn't filtered down - and, of course, it won't be - the richest will end up cutting off their noses to spite their faces I was always told that printing more money was a sign of a failing economy: what have we recently seen in the EU? We face an incredibly important election, to my mind. Further Conservatism and capitalism seem the wrong way to go, for my money | |||
"Every single Marxist planned economy was run by mad men. That's hardly the fault of a system!. Nearly all the capitalist countries are run by mad men, just like they fucked up a Marxist driven economy.... There'll fuck this one up too... Because there mad!. I'm all for capitalism.... But we've not got capitalism!. The system were currently running on has more akin to debt management than capitalism!. Karl Marx took the angle that states were run in the national interest of the ruling classes and against the workers!. Nobody's proved him wrong as far as I can see. I concur. Can certainly see a change to our capitalist system being needed - though the money men and power brokers will be the last to see it. Many think we are just experiencing another cycle in the boom/bust economic cycle which we have seen for generations. Personally I doubt it: I think we are seeing a shift of money and power from the West to the East, most obviously to China and India. I suspect we are living on borrowed time, as we were prior to the banking crisis of 2008. Hopefully I'm wrong but the stagnation in Europe and the West is contrary to the BS governments are telling us: ultimately only the richest are profiting while the rest of us look nervously over our shoulders. If wealth isn't filtered down - and, of course, it won't be - the richest will end up cutting off their noses to spite their faces I was always told that printing more money was a sign of a failing economy: what have we recently seen in the EU? We face an incredibly important election, to my mind. Further Conservatism and capitalism seem the wrong way to go, for my money" . I can only say what we need is a green party economy. It won't be perfect, you'll pay more here and there but I guarantee the system will be changed!. The alternative is a few more years of bollocks but eventually the system will collapse under its own debt. At that point, what they hope is that people will be so desperate there'll vote for anyone who offers a solution and usually the solution will be picking on the weak and the environment!.... That bit has already begun. The primal driver is fear... Never ever be afraid!. As long as live in a society that still believes people can work there way out of poverty the problem will persist. People can do amazing things in any system. Polio was the plague of the 20th century it was cured by a professor in a university who spent all his spare time grinding up monkey brains and eventually after finding a solution which could have made him millions and millions..... He gave it away to the world for free..... Free. Nothing... To the benefit of mankind, and went back to his menial job as a professor I l reckon you'd be lucky if 10% of the people on here even know his name, of course if he was billionaire today from his cure(which he choose not to be) everybody would know him!!.... Don't tell me nothing good or no technological advances ever comes unless moneys involved, because your talking shit!. | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? " . The stock exchange being close to an all time high is a good indicator . New car sales are also at record levels . One only has to look at the number of people eating out in restaurants to see that many people appear to have plenty of disposable income . | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? . The stock exchange being close to an all time high is a good indicator . New car sales are also at record levels . One only has to look at the number of people eating out in restaurants to see that many people appear to have plenty of disposable income . " And how do pay freezes, job cuts, public sector pay freezes, pay day loans, zero hours contracts fit in with what you are seeing? Are we seeing a growth in the gap between the haves and have nots? | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? . The stock exchange being close to an all time high is a good indicator . New car sales are also at record levels . One only has to look at the number of people eating out in restaurants to see that many people appear to have plenty of disposable income . And how do pay freezes, job cuts, public sector pay freezes, pay day loans, zero hours contracts fit in with what you are seeing? Are we seeing a growth in the gap between the haves and have nots? " Yes, and it's the result of deliberate choices by the current government. | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? . The stock exchange being close to an all time high is a good indicator . New car sales are also at record levels . One only has to look at the number of people eating out in restaurants to see that many people appear to have plenty of disposable income . And how do pay freezes, job cuts, public sector pay freezes, pay day loans, zero hours contracts fit in with what you are seeing? Are we seeing a growth in the gap between the haves and have nots? " Public Sector Pay Freezes are one of the biggest deceptions going. Many friends i know of in the public sector have had rises every year, including a minimum of 2% this year. | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? No. It's a false economy. National debt is higher than its ever been. " this | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? . The stock exchange being close to an all time high is a good indicator . New car sales are also at record levels . One only has to look at the number of people eating out in restaurants to see that many people appear to have plenty of disposable income . And how do pay freezes, job cuts, public sector pay freezes, pay day loans, zero hours contracts fit in with what you are seeing? Are we seeing a growth in the gap between the haves and have nots? Public Sector Pay Freezes are one of the biggest deceptions going. Many friends i know of in the public sector have had rises every year, including a minimum of 2% this year." . Plus a very generous final salary pension scheme which are not longer available in private companies. | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? . The stock exchange being close to an all time high is a good indicator . New car sales are also at record levels . One only has to look at the number of people eating out in restaurants to see that many people appear to have plenty of disposable income . And how do pay freezes, job cuts, public sector pay freezes, pay day loans, zero hours contracts fit in with what you are seeing? Are we seeing a growth in the gap between the haves and have nots? " In theory it is impossible to be underpaid as if your current employer fails to appreciate your skill set and underpays you, you simply leave and seek a role where your skills are appreciated . Retailers are experiencing more difficult times due to competition from the internet and are using zero hours contracts to ensure that staff are available when required . It is hard to believe that any rational person would take out a pay day loan. | |||
"Is the economy doing well? What are your thoughts? . The stock exchange being close to an all time high is a good indicator . New car sales are also at record levels . One only has to look at the number of people eating out in restaurants to see that many people appear to have plenty of disposable income . And how do pay freezes, job cuts, public sector pay freezes, pay day loans, zero hours contracts fit in with what you are seeing? Are we seeing a growth in the gap between the haves and have nots? Public Sector Pay Freezes are one of the biggest deceptions going. Many friends i know of in the public sector have had rises every year, including a minimum of 2% this year.. Plus a very generous final salary pension scheme which are not longer available in private companies. " Not to mention the huge amount of "job shuffling" that goes on with the very specific intent of enhancing salaries (considerably) on which the next 35 years of pensions are based on. Then they wonder why their tax deductions have gone up £500 a month. | |||
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